Latest / The Bechdel Cast / The Devil's Advocate (1997) with Sarah Marshall

Transcript

The Devil's Advocate (1997) with Sarah Marshall · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Behold, Jamie, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves. Well,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm the devil and your duddy.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Me when I'm Keanu and from Florida. Well that's wild,
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: that's you're my father the devil, like sir, Come on,
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: come on. I like the choice. Every choice in this
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: movie is a choice.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: It certainly is.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: The choices are taking place four thousand times a second.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: I thought you were gonna say my favorite sin Is podcast,
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: you turn into al Pacino and then say my favorite
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: cit Is podcast. Also, can this movie pass the Bechdel test?
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: If everyone is secretly al Pacino? If al Pacino is
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: lurking beneath the skin of we are to believe like
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: seventy percent of the characters on screen, can it pass? Right?
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Is it that?
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Can Jackie? And unless she's al Pacino?
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Well, I was like, okay, is it al Pacino infiltrating
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: everyone's bodies? Or are they just like I don't know
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: little minor demons. Literally, they've sold their soul to him.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Who knows, who knows, you know, who might know? Andrew Niederman,
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: the writer who brought you Pin What Yes? Pin, Yes, exactly. Yeah,
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: And he's still alive. He's eighty four. He's in Palm Springs.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: We could get in the car right now and be like, wow,
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: is everyone al Pacino? He also, I mean, I think
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: according to his scholarly journal Wikipedia page, The Devil's Advocate
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: is his most famous novel that got adapted. But he
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: also wrote Child's Play.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Oh that it's more famous than The Devil's Advocate.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Unless he wrote a book called Child's Play that's not
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: Child's Play, in which case I redact and he shouldn't
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: have done that. He also wrote a book in two
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: thousand and three called The Baby Squad. I had fun
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: on his on his sicopedia page. Oh goodness, Andrew Niederman's
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: The Baby Squad. Anyways.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Well, then we also have Tony Gilroy, yes of and
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: or Fame, Indoor Fame, writing the screenplay.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, I hope they cut him a big old
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: check for this. We love the Gilroy bros. On this
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: podcast indeed. Okay, okay, we got to get our guests
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: in here. Just one of the greatest of all time
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: who brought us one of the movies of all time?
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, should we introduce ourselves first?
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Or I guess so? I guess so. Sorry, we haven't
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: recorded in two weeks, so I forget how to do
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: my job. So welcome to the Bexel Cast. My name
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: is Jamie Loftis.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Jonte. This is our show where
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist leanne, using the
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Bechdel test as a jumping off point. What is it though?
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: The Bechtel test is what a woman talks to al Pacino.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel came up with the Bechdel test back in
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: the eighties for her comic collection Texs to Watch Out For.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Originally a queer metric that was sort of written as
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: a one off joke, has since been applied more broadly
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: in the mainstream and does not at any point address
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: what if someone's secretly al Pacino? True. However, there is
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: a lot to talk about with this movie in general,
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: and I was actually like, I can't say, pleasantly surprised
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: in good faith here, but I could say I was
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: surprised at how how much there is to talk about
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: with regards to gender.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: So let's get our returning guest. I'm like, is it
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: her fifth time? Do we have to send her a jacket? Unclear?
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Perhaps you know her. She's the host of You're Wrong
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: About You Are Good and the podcast The Devil. You
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: know it's Sarah Marshall.
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: Hello, I would love a jacket or any piece of
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: maybe a goblet.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, putting that out there. Do you not
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: have any goblets? I feel like you have to own
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: a goblet. I feel like it's pink and opal lighte. Yeah,
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: You're right you've had putting out of one of those probably, yeah,
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: but I need a bigger one that's engraved.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: And this certainly is a movie.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: I just am so excited to talk. But first, before
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: we talk about the movie, we want to hear about
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: the podcast. I'm so excited it's finally coming out, and
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: obviously it is in conversation with this documentary we're covering today.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. It is a documentary, this biopic, Yes,
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: this pick of the Devil.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So tell us about the devil.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: You know, well, I'm so happy to be here talking
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: about it with you and bringing it out into the
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: world like my very own al Pacino spawn. But this
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: is a show that I've been Jamie, We've been talking
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: about for a long time. I've been working on for
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: a long time with amazing producer Mary Stephan Hagen, and
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: it's a close up look at the Satanic Panic. It's
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: coming out from CBC Podcasts, and it's the kind of
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: thing that I've been wanting to do for such a
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: long time where you get to kind of not just
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: try and tell the story of how the Satanic Panic
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: worked structurally and how it kind of spread across North
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: America and then you know, to beyond, but also to
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: tell that story by zooming in and having conversations by
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: individual people who were affected by it and who were
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: caught up in it. And so our first episode opens
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: with the story of a woman who had the gall
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: to go to small town Kentucky to try and teach
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: photography to teenagers and was quite literally chased out of
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: town based on allegations that she was looking for blue eyed,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: blonde children to sacrifice. And boy, does that feel like
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: a story that could be happening this week in America.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Very true.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, unfortunately. I was like, so, I mean, because I've learned,
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: I mean really, everything I know about the Satanic Panic
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: has been from you and from your work before we
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: knew each other over the years, and I'm just I'm so,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited. It's an opus of sorts and it's weird.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: If like, in the five years that I've been learning
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: about the Satanic Panic from you, it felt like, wow,
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: well we've moved on as a society. Yeah, since then,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: but now it's back. It's very much back.
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's back. Like penny Wise, our pin one
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: could say our pin one could say pin a book,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: which there is an ad for in one of the
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: mass market paperback editions of Michelle Remembers. Yeah, a book
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: whose kind of backstory we get into on this show too.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: And yeah, I feel like it we you know, look
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: at how it's moving into the present day. But I
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: feel like one of the things I love about studying
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: history and that shaming I think is such a big
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: part of your work too, is that by learning about
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: kind of the things that people have gone through before
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: and also what people have survived before, it's more thinkable
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: to try and get a grasp on how to proceed
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: and how to be helpful in the raging moral panics
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: of today.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: It's true, Absolutely, it's true.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Well, we're so excited to start listening. I know that
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: our listeners and your listeners. It's kind of just a circle. Yeah,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: and so everyone's a big pot luck exactly. So if
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: you haven't started listening already, now is the time. And
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: if you haven't seen The Devil's Advocate, well, now is
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: the time to pirate it on one, two, three movies,
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: which is what I did for this episode.
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: Same, or to watch the TV edit on YouTube, which
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: is we'll take you right back to watching it on
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: TNT in two thousand.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: And three, knowing me way Yeah, okay, So to get
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: into The Devil's Advocate in nineteen ninety seven by Taylor Hackford, Titanic.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Year, the Year of Titanic.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he also directed An Officer and a Gentleman and
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: Ray kind of a random assortment of movies from the sky. Yeah,
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: and he's got style. He's got style. Apparently he's got
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: beef with al Pacino as well. I saw that, But
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: in any case, nineteen ninety seven movie Sarah what is
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: your history with this movie?
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean watching this did take me back to
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: a seeing bits of it on TNT after school in
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: like two thousand and three, and then I remember watching
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: this in full the only other time I've done this
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: when I was living in Madison, so it would have
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: been twenty six and at the time, I was like,
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: I'm going to be a lawyer, and I was watching
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: a lot of just lawyer movies, and I feel like
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: this was just like one of my list of lawyer
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: movies to watch, the same way that I watched like
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: The Firm that week and The Verdict, etc. Yeah, it's
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: always it's a lot of the something you know. The
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: another movie I watched during this period, which I fail
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: very nostalgic for is Primal Fear, which is such a fun,
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: ridiculous experience, and both that movie and this movie, interestingly,
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: in a post Ojay world, are about criminal defense attorneys
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: who are shocked, shocked when they realized that their clients
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: are guilty.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: And it's like, you know, what is like wha.
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: Lawyers generally have some suspicion that maybe they're defending a
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: guilty person. They're not like this surprise, I wouldn't.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: Say someone who's considered to be a law prodigy. I
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: was like, you don't get right that far in you know,
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: non public defense law with the idea that everyone you
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: defend it like it just it just doesn't make sense.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: Unless there's a cut scene where the senior partners are
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: like handsome boy, but it sure is stupid, which I
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: would buy for this character, right, And so yeah, I
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: remember watching it and finding it like really over the
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: top and odd and revealing to me this interesting idea
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: that to defend someone's constitutional rights is evil, which I
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: think is a very interesting sort of like nineties tough
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: on crime throughout an American pop culture. But what I
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: also remember is that towards the end, you're like, what
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: is happening? And I was so delighted to return to
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: it for this show and have the same reaction, which
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: is that in the last half hour or so, you're like,
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: I feel like I'm having a stroke, but in the
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: best way possible, at least for me.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, no, I had the same experience.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like, I don't know, Kaitlyn, what's your
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: history with this movie?
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I had never seen it, nor did I really know
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: anything about it. It was not really on my radar.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: I thought it was that movie The Devil's Own which
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: also came out in ninety seven.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: What is that? I thought it was Meet Joe Black.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, so we're confusing it for different confused Brad
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Pitt movies.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Wagest America had themes in nineteen ninety seven.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: It's true. But yeah, so I was like, oh, yeah,
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: it's that Brad Pitt Harrison Ford movie. Wait, no, it's not.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: And I it was the Brad Pitt Anthony Hopkins movie, right,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: And Brad Pitt was almost in this movie.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: If you hear about the Devil, you just feel like
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: it's gotta be Brad Pitt. Yeah, he probably would have
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: had an easier time with the accent.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, because he's from Oklahoma. I think I wonder if
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons he didn't do it is because
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: he was just in seven a couple of years prime.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: And it also has very like doubly like sin vibes
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: who knows.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: But yeah, vanity got to cut your own face off?
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, my favorite sin.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: But yeah.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: So I didn't really know anything about this movie. And
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: then I was like, oh, okay, the Devil's Advocate that
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: really sounds like one of those stories where the writer
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: came up with the title first and then reverse engineered
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: a story around it.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: And then was incredibly literal. In fact, yes, I was
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: shocked at how literal the title end being. I was like, Wow,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: this movie is engaging with its title in an unprecedented way.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I feel like the only way it would have been
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: more literal is if he was defending the devil himself,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: but in this case, he just works for the devil.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that's true. I mean, look, if
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: you've already written the perfect novel, which is start phoning
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: it in, why not. I'm not mad about it. You know.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: This movie also feels very similar in tone to the
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: Rosemary's Baby sequel Son of Rosemary, which I encourage everyone
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: to read, which just kind of like this starts off
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: like kind of a bad thriller that you know where
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: it's going, and then at the end is like, I
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: don't know, It's like mister Toad's Wild's Ride. You're like, oh,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: we're literally going to hell. That's like, I like it.
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't expect it.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: This this movie. Look, I thought I knew what was
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: going to happen, and I was only right sometimes.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Well, tell us, Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie?
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: I thought it was me Joe Black. I thought I
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: had seen it, and then I start to moment one.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Once I saw the poster, I was like, I have
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: not seen it. It's not me Joe Black. Who I
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: think that's it. That's Brad Pitt is Death, not the Devil.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: I've never seen it.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I haven't seen it. It was on
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: planes for a while.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: We I don't know why we like owned it. We
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: owned it. I remember because it had two video cassettes
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: and oh I had two Titanic vibes. Again, that Titanic, right,
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Although this movie could have had two cassettes because it
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: is simply too too long. Oh my god, it is.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: It's unforgivably long.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: This movie is as long as Good Fellas, yeah, which
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: takes place over like fifteen years.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Good Fellas, which iconically does not feel long. But that said,
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: so I did not have any experience with this movie,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: you know, in terms of what our show is, why
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: we come to this place. It fairs very badly.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, But.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: Did I enjoy myself? I sure did. I want to say, though,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: this is like we need to like put a this
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: is the third Jeffrey Jones jump scare of this fiscal
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: quarter on the Bechdel Cast. He really he.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: Worked his way into the nap of the eighties and nineties.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: You know, it's really vile. I mean it's like satisfying
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: to see him die a horrible death, yes, But outside
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: of that, I was like three times unbelievable because we
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: recently covered Amadis and Sleepy Hollow. Yeah huh. In any case,
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: did I like this fuckast movie? I did? I did?
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: I It is not pro women? What is it saying?
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: Kind of not very much, but it's hard to know.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: It's saying, would you like to watch al Pacino do
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: a monologue for twelve minutes?
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: And it's the answer.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And just sam it up the entire time.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: That was the wild thing too, where it's like, I
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: do think that al Pacino is Like, it's so weird
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: to say that a performance that is like al Pacino
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: shouting mostly is like him phoning it in, But it is.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: And that's so funny that there is someone who when
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: he phones it in, he's screaming the whole time.
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: It also reminds me of like the famous story about
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: doctor strange love that. Kubrick was like, okays, Scott, just
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: do one take where you're really over the top, just
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: to warm up. We won't even use it. And then
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: he was like, Hey, we're gonna use it.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: Really.
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: The nice thing about al Pacino is that he doesn't
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: need to be tricked. Tells you that performance on purpose.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, He's like, that's what I can't also that,
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, I just all the behind the scenes with
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: this movie are is very funny and bizarre, and just
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: like we're just glad that Keanu found his way to
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: the matrix. Indeed eventually, but the stories around this movie
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: are very funny.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: He turned down Speed two to be in.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: This, to do this, He turned down eleven million dollars
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: in Speed two to do this, and he took a
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: pay cut so he could work with al Pacino. And
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: then he did that accent and you're like, this is wild. Yeah,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: but I'm not this is not a Keanu slander podcast.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: But also critically, and then I'll stop, I think that
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: this is also not a Keanu Reeves coddling podcast. That
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: is a very I feel like we have over corrected.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: We have over corrected, all right, He's pretty good in
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: this movie, he's pretty good. Well, it's okay to be
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: pretty good at your job. I'm so sick of like
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: adults infantilizing other wealthy adults. I'm like, what the fuck, Like, Okay,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: it's a fine performance. Charlie Starron is awesome. Her haircut
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: is awful. I love that Keani's character, who is iconically
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: named Kevin the Devil's Son, is named Kevin. That's a minion.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: That's not a guy, but but in the nineties, it's
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: not an adult.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: It's a kid in a baseball cap who gets to
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: adopted air but absolutely absolutely.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: But yeah, an adult Kevin who is just too much.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: But this feels ultimately like a like put together, Like
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know. This movie is both completely off the
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: rails and feels like very calibrated. I mean, that's why
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: I'm excited to talk about like the context that this
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: movie came out in with you, Sarah, because it feels
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: very like pulling from multiple trends in nineties media, where
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: it's like it's got the erotic thriller elements, it's got
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: the legal thing, it's got the satanic panic thing. Like
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: there's just a lot happening and they're like, what if
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: we put it all in one movie.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: It's like the Trifle and Friends, where the recipe pige
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: has got stuck together and you have like peas and
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: jam and the same thing. And actually, I do want
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: to tell you because after I watched this, I did
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: what I frequently do, which is run to see what
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: ROGERI Bert said about it. Okay, because he's my favorite killjoy.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: I just love him so much, And he said.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: I hope people say that about us too.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: He said the John Grisham stuff clashed with the Exorcist stuff. Still,
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: I enjoyed Picturino, which is basically like I mean, yeah.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Pretty pretty solid review. Overall, I enjoyed.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this movie made me want to rewatch Constantine, Oh,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: which is that Keanu Reeves movie where he I actually
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: don't remember what it's about, but there's also something about
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: It's like he's like a demon Holly or something.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's got to kill It's one of those movies
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: that if hear me a boy makes you watch in
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: two thousand and seven.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes or tn T this movie is I didn't
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: think this until you said it, Sarah, but this movie
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: is very t and T coded. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: Well, and also because this was during the time when
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: TNT was playing Law and Order for like four hours
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: every afternoon, and I know because I was watching it
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: whenever it was on, and so it was weird when
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: they would be playing this because they're literally, I think,
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: in one of the same courtrooms that Law an Order
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: uses with the beautiful mural and then it's about the devil.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: And the nineties were like secu heyday for just like
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: legal thrillers all have the same color palette, and they
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: frequently did I mean, at least in like A Time
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: to Kill, you have Charlie's there and being like, please
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: don't defend the defendant in the wildly rigged racist case. Honey,
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: we're getting snubbed at the country club or whatever, you know.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: And so I just like having this thing that felt
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: like you kind of feel And that's kind of it's
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: both what does and doesn't work about it for me
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: that you kind of feel like you know where it's
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: going and it does feel grishay and then it's.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: The devil, but then it's the devil, and yeah, Kevin
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: is the Devil's sun and misses like my God does.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Every character is just everyone's doing way too much, but
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: I love it. I love it When Keanu I think
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: that it's like either the line is misspoken, I miswatched it,
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: or it was just a clunkily written line. Any of
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: these things are possible. But when Charlie's Terarren's character gets
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: the hair cut, she goes from curly like fun blonde
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: like bouncy curls. She looks like Elizabeth Berkeley, and then
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: yeah does and then al Pacino says, get a brown bob,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: Like You're like, what do you mean? Like I did
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: not understand the motivation behind the brown boss.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: Like get your hair off your neck. The neck is
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: the borderland and seduction, and it's like like stop and
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: there's You're like, you know, whether he's the devil or
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: a man who tells random women what to do with
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: their hair at parties, he represents the same threat level.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: You know, yes, I will say he is great. I
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: mean it's also whatever, al Pacino. There's plans to talk
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: about with al Pacino too, but.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: So I might have been thinking of actually Jad but whatever.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: I think it stands. The point stands. The point stands. Yeah,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: But in any case, this line cracked me up because
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: she's like, you.
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: Don't like the haircut, Kevin, You don't like my haircut, Kevin,
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: And then and then he goes, no, it's fine, and
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: then the next line is it's traumatic.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: He's talking about something else, but it sounds like he's calling.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Her haircut traumatic.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: Yes, I know, maybe laugh so much, but he is
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: changing the subject, but the way Keanu is reading it
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: makes it sound like he's still talking about the haircut. Yes,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: he cracked me up.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: Also, you feel like this was like the nineties were
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: I feel like the nineties were so much worse in
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: terms of an actor doing an accent for a role
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: and then deciding scene by scene whether he was going
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: to do it or possibly I don't know. I don't
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: want to coddle Kanu too much, but you wonder if
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: like the director is like, just just don't worry about
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: it anymore, and then they edit it together so that
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: it comes in and out like that.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Right. Oh yes, Well when this is like not even
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: the most famous example of Kano doing that, because wouldn't
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: that be Dracula? Yes, yeah, like that's I think his
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: most iconically like not so great well was I mean,
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever like acted in something,
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: particularly like a film project, where you're like, you know not,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: you know whatever. It's kind of on you to keep
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: the accent consistent. It's not an easy thing to do,
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: but also you should do it.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, And on that note, let's take a quick break
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: and then come back for the recap. Okay, we're back,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: and we will place a trigger warning here for many
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: things kind of what, yes, you name it, child sexual abuse, rape, incest, suicide.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: This movie kind of runs the whole gambit.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Of animal sacrifice.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, lots of violence and upsetting things.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: Kevinnvin.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: We open in a courtroom in Gainesville, Florida, where defense
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: attorney Kevin Lomax not to be confused with Kevin le Mignon,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: thank you for saying that, Yes, played by Keanu Reeves,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: is defending a teacher who is on trial for sexually
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: abusing his students.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Heather Modarazzo too, Yes, and.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: This teacher seems very guilty, but Kevin, despite having some
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: misgivings about his client, manages to turn things around and
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: tries to expose the student who is testifying as a
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: liar who made up this story about her teacher. And
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: it seems like it's going to work and that he
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: has won the case, and so he goes out to
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: celebrate with his wife.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Mary Anne, his fun, curly wife who does shots.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, she's still got curly hair. But the devil makes
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: you get a bob.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: This is Charlie Sterren's character, of course. And while they're
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: at the bar, Kevin is approached by an attorney from
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: a law firm in New York City. Ever heard of it?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: That's Babylon, that's the Devil's playground, city of sin. And
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: this firm is impressed with Kevin because he's never lost
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: a case and they want his help with a jury selection. Now,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Kevin's mother, Alice, doesn't think this is a good idea.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: She's super religious and she thinks that New York is
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: full of godless heathens. But Kevin and his wife Mary
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Anne go to New York anyway, and he does a
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: good job with the jury selection. So John Milton, Okay,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Paradise Lost mud very subtle played by al Pacino.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: Can I be vulnerable and say I've never read Paradise Lost?
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Oh no, oh god, how many people have? You know?
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: I'm very proud of anyone who's managed it.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: But okay, yeah, no, I've never read that. I have
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: never read Dante's Inferno.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Everything I know about Dante's Inferno is from Lemony Snicket books.
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: That's pretty good, you know what you want to know?
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: What I just learned is that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, his
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: wife died when her dress caught fire and she burned
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: to a crisp, which happened to a lot of women
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: in the mid nineteenth century because the fashion was for
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: women to wear very very flammable clothing, and so they
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: did because you know, it feels like a trick. That
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: feels like a trick, like no, no, just wear layer
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: is a very very flammable cotton in the air, it'll
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: be great. And so after that he didn't really write
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: much or any new poetry, and he devoted much of
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: the rest of his life life to translating the Divine Comedy,
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: which I just think is like, ohh such a relatable
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: grief thing to do. You're like, nobody talk to me.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: I'm translating the Divine Comedy from Italian. It's going to
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: take a while. I'm fine, everything's fine in here.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: I kind of like, yeah, that's both obviously, like that
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: is such a traumatic thing. And also it's kind of
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: dramatic of him to be like, oh, no, leave me alone.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: You know I love it. Yeah, we should. We should
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: really bring back more dramatic grieving of that nature.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: We should have PSAs about how increasingly young men are
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: translating epic Italian poems to deal with their emotions, and
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: that's why we need to increase mental health access.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: It's the male it's the male translation epidemic. Everyone's talking
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: about it. It's really bad.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: If they think everyone else is doing it, they're going
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: to start translating poems. I swear to God it's true.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: This is how this is. This is our attempt to
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: reverse the narrative. Yeah, they don't want you to translate
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: classic Italian poems. Boys, It's the last thing they want
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: you to do. The final rebellion.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: In any case.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Anyway, John Milton played by al Pacino, is one of
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: the senior partners at this law firm and definitely not.
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: Like John Milton or Tanio.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And he hires Kevin to work at the firm.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: Okay, this does actually now that we're talking about Kevin
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: the Minion, this does follow Minion logic because Kevin does
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: Minion rules. Minion serves the most evil master. What is
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Kevin doing? Wow, this is kind of like a Kevin thing.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: It is a minions. He is a minion and that's
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: why his accent is so inconsistent. Yeah.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, his first language is minionise.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: That which means he's he can speak just as many
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: languages as the devil Well and Christabella Andreoli iconic Connie
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: Nielsen character. Christabella Andreoli, do you like it on top?
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: You're like, shut up everyone. Every time someone speaks in
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: this movie, my reaction is shut up anyways.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Uh So, John Milton gives Kevin a job as well
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: as this like huge beautiful apartment in Manhattan. Then Kevin
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: meets his colleagues, including this guy named Eddie Barzoon This
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: is the Jeffrey Jones character. And Christabella Andreoli that's the
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Connie Nielsen character.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: Perfect and like many women professional women characters of the
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: late twentieth century, we know she's really good at her job,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: but don't expect to see her doing it and not
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: expected to become plot relevant. She's there to be naked eventually.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, because every time Kevin looks at her, he goes
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: hubba hubba a wooga.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: It's true it's true, and then his heart bursts out
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: of his chest.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: And yeah, he goes full wolf es. God, we're gonna
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: when we get to the scene where she do you
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: like it? On top of your profession? I mean you're like,
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: oh oh oh lord, Yeah, Tony Gilroy, how are you doing, sir?
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Okay. So, Kevin's first assignment is the Moyes case, where
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: this guy named Philippe Moyez played by Delroy Lindo.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, one of my favorite Chrea directors ever.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Indeed, he is arrested for killing a goat in his
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: basement and it seems like there's no way to win
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: this case, but Kevin manages to win by saying that
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Moyees killed a goat as a religious practice, which he
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: has the constitutional right to observe.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Okay, here's my question with the whole Delroy Lindo thing,
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: because this movie does extremely poorly on race, as we'll
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: talk about. Yes, but I was like, genuinely, I was like, okay, So,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: once you find out al Pacino's the devil, are we
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: to believe that Keanu Reeves should not have fought that
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: religious freedom case? I was very confused.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about it later because I like I want
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: to get into it with that plotline that could have
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: been absolutely cut from the movie, and perhaps should have been,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: because it was cut like twenty minutes out of the runtime,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: which is desperately needed for this movie.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, ultimately it's like I'm always happy to see Delroy Lindo.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: But that was one of the many baffling moments in
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: the truly yeah.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: But the point is that Kevin wins this unwinnable case,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: and so John Milton is like, Wow, Kevin, good job,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: you rock and you now. Meanwhile, at home, Marianne has
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: been hanging out with her neighbor Jackie, played by Tamara Tooney,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: who's also married to one of the lawyers at the firm.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: I think that guy's name is Lehman.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: It is played by Reuben Santiago Hudson, who is an
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: actor and a writer. He wrote the adaptation of ma
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Rainie's Black Bottom. Oh not kidding. Wow, he's just a
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: very yeah, he's a very versatile guy anyways, which I
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: think my friend Patrick was in as an extra really yeah,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: as a racist Irish man in Oh Pittsburgh. Mary got
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: that track, Uh, well, shot up Patrick.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: But so Marianne is hanging out with Jackie, who is
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: helping marian decorate her new apartment because women be doing
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: woman things like decorating. And then Kevin and Marianne go
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: to this big party in the building and this is
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: where Marianne meets John Milton and he's like, Wow, you're beautiful,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: but your hair, well it looks like shit and you
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: should change everything about it.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole the whole neck thing.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Right exactly. Meanwhile, Kevin is flirting with Christabella.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: And she's flirting right back. Bouschemy tests this you can't
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: you care? Oh my god? Do you like it on top? Kevin?
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Like, and then he's like, excuse me?
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: Is your wife a Jedi's woman? Kevin? I better get
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: out of here. You're like just the most written by
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: man woman ever. Yeah, but it felt like it for me,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: it transcended and became camp. Do you like it on top? Kevin?
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: This is an extremely campy movie. It's taking itself very seriously.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: But the camp is that I'm qualifiers true.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: I mean that's the thing about The Devil, right, is that, like,
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: you can't really be dead serious about Devil stuff.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: The Devil is camp.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a campy, little guy.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: I'm just look at that outfit for a start, what
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: is that pitchwork for. It's for poking people in the butt.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: It's true, he's a kinky little guy. This movie made
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: me think of Angel Heart, which is, like, I don't know,
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: to me, a similarly campy devil movie where it's like
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: supposed to be a twist that it's the devil, but
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: you're like, this has clearly been the devil the entire time,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: and like, you know, with like great style. Is directed
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: by Ellen Parker, but where like if you had to
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: come up with the point of it, you would have
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: no idea what to say. Yeah, And they both have
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: like over the top dramatic endings at opposite ends of
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: the twelve year old boy spectrum, which I'm excited to
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: talk about when we get there.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, because ultimately the I mean as close
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: it's trying to say something about free will, but I
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: think it is making a very simple and should be
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: you know, followed moral, which is do not legally defend
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: and a super criminals, yeah, like a child's sex abuser.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: And you're like, well, all right, got it.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: I agree, And you know, for most people who don't
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: have that job in the audience. You're like, already not
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: doing that.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: I love it. Yeah, that's true. You're like, I did it.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: And then if that is your job, I have to
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: get out a postcard and write to whatever studio made this.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: It's true. Okay. So they're at this party and then
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: eventually Milton summons Kevin and then a couple of the
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: other attorneys to his penthouse apartment, which is just this
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: like big room. There's no bedroom, there's no bed, there's
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: a kitchen.
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: He's an anti Samantha Jones. She's all bedroom, he's no bedroom.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: I think this is a later scene in the same space,
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: but that whole like where does he sleep? We don't
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: know where does he fuck everywhere?
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: You're like, no, that is the scene.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: Oh it is okay, that is Yeah, it's awesome.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: Also Edward Collen coated except Edward Collin fucts nowhere famously.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: The thing is, I want that same line read from
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: Robert Patt's no way.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Oh that's kind of the accent he's doing in Mickey seventeen.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: So I feel like he could pull it out.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: It is, Yeah, he can do it.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: In any case, Milton gives Kevin a new case to
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: work on this big time real estate developer named Alexander Cullen. Okay, Collin, speak.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: Of the devil, Alexander Cullen. Unfortunately, the Alexander Collin penthouse
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: is Donald Trump's penthouse in New York.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: Really is, Yeah, except it's like what if Donald Trump
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: was the dad from Poultergeist? And you're like, at this point,
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: I'll take it.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Also, Donald Trump's name is invoked in this movie at
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: some point where they're at a party and someone says
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump was supposed to be here, but he had
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: a business emergency, and you're like, oh.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: My god, I mean I'm sure that that was like
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: the condition for using the apartment or something like you
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: need to bring me up in a way that makes
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: just any.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Reply that I have business emergencies and not going to
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: sex offender Island emergencies.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: Yes, somehow, our fascist president does weasele his way into
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: this movie that at least has the decency to be
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: about the devil.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, not take up ahead of ourselves, but
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: this this movie does imply something about the craigten Nelson
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: character that you kind of feel like people in the
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: know probably knew about Trump in the nineties too interesting.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Perhaps, yeah, I believe it. We'll clarify that shortly. But
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: what we know about Alexander Cullen now is that he
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: has been charged with murdering three people, including his wife,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: and it's going to be this big, very public case.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: But Kevin is up to the challenge.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: Go Kevin, lead counsel. Kevin, I feel fine, just honestly,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: you need to change your name like I am. You
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: could be the best layer in the world. I'm not
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: working with Kevin. Come on, not for a murder trial,
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: right My life is on the line. Leave Kevin out
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: So then Kevin meets with this Alexander Cullen played by
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Craig t Nelson, And what's his thing again? I know
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: that he has like horrible politics. I know that he's
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: like not a good person. I like it's hard to
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: keep tracked t Nelson. I know very little about me too.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: I miss Craig tel.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I think we might have brought him up on the
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: podcast before. I don't remember it, but any I think
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: he's he's not a great guy anyway. He's not thrilled
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: with Kevin taking the case, but he doesn't have much
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: of a choice. Meanwhile, mary Anne, who now has a
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: completely different haircut and hair color, goes shopping with her
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: friend Jackie, and then this weird thing happens where Jackie's like,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: look at my titties. Are they fake? Are they real?
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Touch them, feel them? And then Marianne sees Jackie's face
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: and body briefly transform into something that looks demonic.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: Looks like bad cgi.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: There's nothing more satanic than girls touching each other's boobs famously.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Like right away, you're like, got it, got I see
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: the go.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: Ask Alice school of Satanism.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: Chraigtie Nelson, from what I can tell, is your sort
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: of garden variety, like right leaning libertarian, dork ass loser,
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: but I do this. His Wikipedia page is fascinating because
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: I've noticed this as like an editorial thing. I'm like,
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it's like his reps doing it or something.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: But in the personal life section, whenever someone is truly
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: like a piece of shit, people will edit it to
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: end it on something innocuous in the hopes that you're scanning.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: Because it's like he endorsed John McCain, He was a
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: regular guest on and Beck and then it ends on
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Nelson is also a lifelong Green Bay Packers fan, and
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: you're like, you can't fool me. Yeah, I saw Glenn
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: Beck like whatever, But.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: You're supposed to go about your day and the rest
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: of your life thinking Craig T. Nelson, go pack go
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah exactly.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay. So then after mary Anne witnesses this really
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: bizarre thing with her friend Jackie, she keeping is stressfulling
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: and yes, I also turned into a demon when I shop. Yeah,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: if a three way mirror is present, absolutely indeed.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: And my hot friends are undressing in front of me,
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: and I'm feeling insecure about my bob. Come on.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: So she freaks out and she tells Kevin that things
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: are weird and that actually she hates this apartment and
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: she doesn't like that he's never home anymore because he's
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: so busy working all the time. And Kevin does not
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: take this well. He's furious. He's screaming at her, but
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: then she starts crying, so he consoles her and it
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: gets horny. Let's yeah, the line read there is hilarious.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: They start fucking on the floor, but as they're having sex,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: he keeps seeing Christabella instead of mary Anne, and Marianne
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: can tell something is wrong and that he's not fully present.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Then we cut away. Kevin's mother, Alice comes into town
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: for a visit and they run into Milton in the elevator,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: and she seems very uncomfortable around Milton. Is it because
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: he's the devil? I don't know, or is it.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Because they had a thing back in the day.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: We'll find out. But another weird thing happens on the
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: subway where Milton and Kevin are riding the subway for
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: some reason. I don't no, they have so much money,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: why aren't they taking like private cars?
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: Because he's the devil and he likes to be underground.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Yes, well that is I read in the there was
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: a Joel Schumacher version of this movie which was supposed
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: to happen, which actually, my god, I can't believe it didn't. Right,
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: there's already a lot of nipples in this movie. But
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: here's the thing. There could have been more. There could
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: have been more, but in the Joel Schumacher version, I
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: think that that's probably left over. Because the Joel Schumacher
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: version is it's like Dante's six Circles of Hell are
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: going deeper and deeper into the subway system, which is
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: so cute, which is a cool like visual idea, but
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: I think that like what happened that didn't happen. And
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: then there's just a random scene where these like wealthy
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: characters who are classist are on the subway.
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: For some reason, I wonder how much of Joel Schumacher's
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: The Devil's Advocate ended up in Batman and Robin oh
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: Never now.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: Makes you think rp to the Weirdest Man effort.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: But anyway, this strange thing happens on the subway where
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Milton tells this man that his girlfriend is currently cheating
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: on him, and he seems to know a bunch of details,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: almost as if Milton is omniscient, almost like he's the devil.
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: That's why America's Southern lawyer should learn Spanish. Gave him
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: time on this one.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, also okay, and I can't claim to be an
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: expert or even proficient in Spanish, but I know enough
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: to know that al Pacino was not doing a very
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: good job and he's it seems like he's speaking Spanish
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: with an Italian accent, because I think al Pacino does
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: know Italian.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the degree to which he is phoning it
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: in at volume one thousand. Is that's interesting because I
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: was I was going to ask you. I was like,
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: is it even close?
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: It's it's pretty rough and it's clear because it keeps
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: cutting away from him so you're not actually see him.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: So I think it's a lot of it is a
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: dr and I think lines were probably like said to
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: him one sentence at a time, and he's still blowing it.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: But there's a lot of there's a lot of ADR
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: in this movie. My favorite ADR comes from it's misogynous ADR.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: It's when they move into the three bedroom apartment and
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: they add the line three bedrooms. You know what that
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: means a.
• 44:26
  Speaker 6: Baby, Like you don't see her, you don't see her
• 44:30
  Speaker 6: mug move that whole time. I was like, they absolutely
• 44:33
  Speaker 6: added that, Like they're like, oh no, we never established
• 44:36
  Speaker 6: that this character's only goal in life is to have
• 44:39
  Speaker 6: Kyanta Reeve's baby, no matter how much he hates her.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: You know what that means?
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: A baby seamless, no perfect, And then more weird things
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: continue to happen at home.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Marianne sees and speaking of babies, she sees a random
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: baby in the apartment.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: And takes it in stride, takes it really in stride.
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: She says, Hi, baby, the.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Baby, where's your mummy. You're like, oh, she is cool
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: as a cucumber about it until she sees what the
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: baby is playing with, which are entrails, and then she's like,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: oh no, And then it seems like maybe Marianne is
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: having a miscarriage. We don't know if it was a
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: dream or if it was real. Marianne feels like she's
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: losing her grip on reality. And again, Kevin is not
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: handling this well. He's not listening to her. He is
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: dismissing her, He's constantly gaslighting her.
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: He's doing about as well as any husband named Kevin anyway.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: And it's a weird Keano performance. So the in my opinion,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: the like the reactions feel weird and outsized even for
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: what he's doing, where it's like you're like, too loud,
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: too loud, what's going on?
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, I love this, boovie.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: It sucks.
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: I keep imagining him saying to Charlie Is at some
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: point like, honey, let's let's go to Los Angeles and
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: I can infiltrate surf crime communities.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah was it?
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: I guess this was this was after point break, right.
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know it's all a big soup in
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: my head.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like his like post Speed but pre Matrix era. Yeah,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: a couple of rough ones. Yeah, because he is.
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: The kind of actor where you feel like people were
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: trying to figure out what roles he made sense in
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: and this like I don't know if I feel like
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: Tom Cruise would make more sense total role. I realized that, Yeah,
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: recommending more Tom Cruise movies is a loaded thing to say.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: But I mean, but no, he's not the right Catholic intensity.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, Like I love Keanu, but I think
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: he is more often than not horribly miscast. He's definitely
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: almost never put in the right role, and you know,
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: I'm not unhappy to see it necessarily, but.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Especially in like the nineties, where it's like they just
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: hadn't quite figured out where he because he's he's great
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: in the right role, right in the wrong role. And
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: he always fully commits too, which I feel like, unfortunately
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: like kind of works against him sometimes because he's fully
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: committing to like a weird choice, right, because you're like.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: You can tell how hard he's trying, but is maybe
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: not doing a very good job sometimes. Allah his performance
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: in Dracula, I didn't think.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: That he was because I was reading there like this
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: is a bad key out of performance. I'm like, I
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: didn't think it was like bad. It just didn't think
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: it was good. It's not right.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: It's just not right for him.
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's also like it feels like it's not a
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: protagonist role that you really have that much to do with,
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: because like, isn't he gets mostly reacting to Steph.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, I mean like al Pacino has like
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, al Pacino is not miscast in this role,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: even though apparently he turned down this role three three
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: different times because he was like it's too like trite,
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: which he's right about, but I just I guess the
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: he's he was like this is too and too trite,
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: which makes sense because he is a really good actor,
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: and that is true. But I guess they just said
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: the right number, and he's like, all right, I'll do it.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: The theme of the movie everywhere goodness. Okay.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: So Kevin meanwhile, is working on this murder case with
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: that Cullen guy who says he has an alibi, which
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: is that he's been having an affair with his assistant
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: and he was with her the night the murders happened,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: but Milton is considering taking Kevin off of this case
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: because he sees how it's affecting Kevin and Marianne's marriage.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: But Kevin is like, no, I can have it all.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: It's a test. It's a test, and he passes.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: And he passes and he fails.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's well for mary Anne, he feels. But I
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: guess I interpreted that as like the Devil's like giving
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: him a chance to do the right thing. And then
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: he's like, no, I won't. Yeah, yeah, it's the whole
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: free will Yeah, semi theme. Got is it a theme
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: or is it guess something people mention a lot. It's
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know that the free will thing towards the end.
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah again. One of the many like weirdly executed, kind
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: of iconic, campy things this movie does is like state
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: the intended theme at the very end of the movie
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: so loudly, how do you like them free wills?
• 49:26
  Speaker 7: You're like, oh, I always like that, Yeah, it is fun.
• 49:31
  Speaker 7: You're like, okay, so this movie is also insecure about
• 49:34
  Speaker 7: what it's doing for sure.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Then something happens with the Eddie Barzoon character, where what
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: a name you know, yeah, he thinks Kevin is trying
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: to take his job, and he's been doing some shady
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: stuff and shredding a lot of doc in redding.
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, not point break kind of shredding.
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: Unfortunately he's getting Yeah, he's getting the shreddings. It feels
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: like he's got a lot of refice to get through.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, And because of all of that question Mark Milton
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: seems to send out some demons to kill Eddie Barzoon.
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: This guy is cleverly as joggers, which you know, what's
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: the difference Franklin.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: First as joggers, but then they kind of transform.
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: In a way that's both like the lesson behind that one.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we can talk more about that, but either way,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Barzoon dies, which Marianne sees from her window and she
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: has a breakdown. So Kevin rushes to be with her,
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: but not before he wins the Cullen case. Don't you worry,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: because he never loses. And he goes to be with Marianne,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: who tells Kevin that Milton came into their home and
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: raped her, and Kevin's like, I don't believe you. That's
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: impossible because I was with him all day. So Kevin
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: takes Marianne to the hospital for like psychiatric intervention. He
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: basically like has her committed, because are the.
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: Full Virginia Manson and Candy Man treatment where you get
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: strapped to a table and they wheel you away. I'm
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: your useless husband is like, goodbye.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: Honey, I'm gonna give you a little kiss. Okay, goodbye.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she's saying, we have blood money on
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: our hands. All the times that you one cases defending
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: guilty clients, we are reaping the consequences of that now.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: And Kevin eventually realizes she's right, But it also he
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: has to see a whole bunch of other things to
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: fully believe it, such as and I was unclear exactly
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: what was happening here, but I think the implication is
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: that he sees Culin with Cullen's stepdaughter, who he has
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: been sexually abusing.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, yeah, I missed that.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: It's super unclear. Oh, because we don't really see we
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: don't get like a good look really at any point
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: of the stepdaughter.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: But then they're together at Jeffrey Jones's funeral, which is
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: like the ideal place for plot development. And yeah, because
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: there's this whole thing where craigten Nelson has been making
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: this big show about like I just care about my stepdaughter.
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: I'm not allowed to see my stepdaughter anymore, and these
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: murder charges are bogus and my big secret is that
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: I was having an affair with another consenting adult.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the ticket.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: And I think it's that thing again of like Canna
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: Reeves being like, wow, maybe I am defending an innocent
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: client at this murder trial, which again is like, you're
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: not going to make a living in criminal defense if
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: you insist on having innocent clients, right you can. I
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: feel like it makes more sense to focus on the
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: sense of betrayal of like, oh, I thought I had
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: a good understanding of who this person was morally and
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: then it turns out that I completely mischecked them, and
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: I feel like an idiot and like I didn't understand
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: the terms of the bargain that I was making. Because
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: then he gets acquitted and we see him like inappropriately
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: touching his stepdaughter's back at Jeffrey Jones's funeral appropriately just right.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: Just can't even get into it. Yeah, that hadn't even
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: really like connected for you, but you're totally right of
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: like this character is not convincingly competent, like you don't
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: believe he's the best lawyer, and it got.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: The football scholarship to law school, just like in Point Break.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: Well, it's like it helps his character development of like
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: becoming a bad person if he knows and doesn't care, right,
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: And it's not like the movie. The way that the
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: movie wants him to be likable is like executed so
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: weirdly because clearly the movie doesn't care if we think
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: he's a good partner or not. He's never not screaming
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: at Charlie's, so you're just like it's just weird.
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right, it feels like they wrote all the other
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: characters and then just had him sort of do what
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: he had to do to make the scenes make sense. Right. Yeah,
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: It's like he has to start off as someone who
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: has no idea how to do his job properly in
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: order to continue to be surprised, you know, because like, Yeah.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: Another Kanu line read that's going to be rattling around
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: my head for years is when he was again his
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: character who's a piece of shit, one might say the
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: whole movie, Yeah, it is yelling at critinals and Secretary says,
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: you've been polishing his knob for months and you don't
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: know if he has foreskin. I was like, I don't
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: don't yell foreskin at a lady. I'll say that even
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: if you're prepping.
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: A witness, write it on an index card and slide
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: it across the table like it's a really high salary
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: or something.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: That was just like such an unpleasant line.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: To hear, know, old writing choices.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: I also think that.
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: In the supernatural vein this movie and Liar Liar, I
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: think are both inspired by the O. J. Simpson Trial.
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: It's one of my analyses, right because like we have
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: this moment of like America feeling like a bit scandalized
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: at criminal law and sort of what is maybe legally
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: permissible but not morally permissible when you're mounting a defense,
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: and that this movie and Liar Liar and Primal Fear,
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: as I've mentioned before, but Liar Liar is a more
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: fun comparison or about like what if you were a
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: really good defense lawyer but then something supernatural happened, And
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: it's also about appreciating your partner more. I guess, yeah, wow,
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: I've never seen Liar Liar. Somehow, it's very fun it's
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: Jim Carrey is a lawyer. He's having fun. I like,
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: I like Jim Carrey. I realized that not everyone can
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: handle I think I would like uncut Carrie.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's fun. It's also got like I know.
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: I've made this joke somewhere before, but who cares. It's
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: like one of those like light nineties comedies that just
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: revealing what the economy was like back then. Has like
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: a beautiful orchestral score that makes me imacgin like a
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: coronette player in the bathroom, like honey, honey, I'm learning
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: my part for a liar. Liar Honey.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: I've seen that movie probably twenty times between the ages
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: of like eleven and twelve and then never again.
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: So I bet you could recite it like a massa.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: I bet.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: I bet.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we should do. We should do like a maybe
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: that's a Patreon theme or something like a lawyer brewery
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: because it is interesting, like what whatever I mean? I know, Sarah,
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: that's like so much of what your show is about,
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: but like what our you know, pop culture perception of
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: justice is depending on the given moment, and yeah, like
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: this it feels almost like weird and Pollyanna ish for
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: what this movie suggests, which is that the devil would
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: have to intervene for a lawyer to act in bad faith,
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: which is like.
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: Great, yeah, And it's also it's interesting because it's like
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: there are so many moments where it flirts with coherence, right,
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: and like like this firm reminds me of like Wolfram
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: and Heart from Angel, where they're like a law firm
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: that very unsubtly, like we learn, is you know, up
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: to all kinds of like shady, very high level international
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: stuff that's all about like perpetuating wars and you know,
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: keeping the working class down and doing like the real
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: big corporate evil that I think is very different than
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: just like being any defense lawyer protecting the rights of
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: individuals in a trial setting. But it's like, but everyone
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: hates successful criminal defense lawyers so much in nineteen ninety
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: seven that the two kind of get like steamrolled together
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: at a certain point.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, because on Kevin's journey of realizing, not that
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: maybe journey maybe Ken, we have to talk about Kevin
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: or whatever that movie's called.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: We literally have to talk about Kevin. Wow, wow, wow,
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: oh no, it's come to this.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: He's seeing all of this evidence that maybe the law
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: firm he works for is demonic, because then some like
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know if this is like an attorney general
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: or something. But he goes up to Kevin and he's like,
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: by the way, your law firm is tied up in
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: arms dealing and chemical weapons and money laundering and all
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: this stuff. And so rather than Kevin, you know, just
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: listening to his wife and believing her, he's like, well,
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: now I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe where I
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: work is evil.
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: A guy from the Justice Department or whatever came and
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: bothered me. So yeah, he set me straight, and so
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: now I believe it.
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: Which I do think is how a lot of men behave.
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: But it makes it harder to believe the character has
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: grown and changed because of how late in the movie
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: that happened.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: Because he never actually believes his wife. No, you just
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: know he gets the information elsewhere.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: And he also iconically barely reacts when he's like no,
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: I mean he reacts when she dies, but then it
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: sort of is like for two seconds anyway, and then anyways, WHOA.
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: That was weird, Like, well, I gotta be back in
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: court in twenty so I'll react.
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: Later in some ways it ends up working out for
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: my schedule.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: You're like, oh, well, okay, So what happens next is
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: that at the hospital, Marianne takes her own life, and
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: while that's happening, Kevin's mother, who's back in town, reveals
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: this big secret that she has met John Milton many
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: years before and actually he's Kevin's father.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: That twist was for still added. That twist is not
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: in the original and the source of material, like most
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: of the ending, is added for the movie. But I
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: also it's interesting as as goofy as it is. I
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: was sort of like, wait, Kevin's mom is fucking.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: And she's fucking the devil.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Kevin's mom had sex when the Devil.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: I feel like we're speeding past that part.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: Like I want I wanted to cut away. I wanted
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: to cut away with the Marvelettes playing in the background.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also not super clear how consensual that interaction
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: might have been.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: For my own sanity, I would like to think that
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: it was. But yeah, it's a very.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna for also for the sake of
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: my own brain, to say that it was consensual, because
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: then it can still be funny but also, I mean
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: that is like how and again you're like, okay, he's
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: the devil, but how freely sexual assault and rape is
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: just like tossed around as a plot point in this movie.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: You're just like yeah, yeah, And it's like the nineties
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: model of ladies Man, where it's like, well, he was
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: constantly surrounded by a vulnerable young woman who he was
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: taking advantage of, so ladies man, and it's like that's right.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: It's like the opposite of that. It's like a man
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: who's the enemy of all ladies, right.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I'm like Keanu Reeves, who is a real
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: ladies man.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: The ladies love him.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: It's true, lady, Yeah, he's a fine wine.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: It's true.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: So Kevin learns that John Milton is his father. He's
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: also piecing together that Milton is the devil, so he
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: goes to confront Milton.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: It's going through a lot again, a very funny reaction
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: from Keanu where he's like oh what, like he seems
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: like kind of like more annoyed than shocked, where he's like, stop,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: don't tell me this today on the day of my
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: wife's tragic passing. Stop, Like he's so weird.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he goes to Milton, and his suspicions
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: that Milton is the Devil are confirmed, which means that
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Kevin is half devil or something like Spock. Yeah yeah,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: and now Kevin has to reconcile his past choices and
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: behavior because Kevin has acted of his own free will.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Milton explains that as the devil, he simply sets the stage,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: but he doesn't make anyone do anything. So Kevin making
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: a shitload of money defending sex criminals and murderers, and
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Kevin neglecting his wife, all of that was his own doing,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: and Kevin has to like sort through.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: That, which I think is in some ways you could
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: view that as the twist of the movie, being that
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: men are accountable for their actions. And he's like, what not, Yeah,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: that is like pretty good. I think that's as coherent
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: as this thing gets. I do like that. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: it's fun.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: And then Christabella shows up. She is Kevin's half sister
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: because Milton is also her father.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: They also added this for the movie, and you're like,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: was that necessary?
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: But like, we haven't had enough non assault related nudity, so.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: Let's and let's just throw incest into the conversation. While
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: we're at it precisely.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the point where if you're editing it
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: down for TNT, I do not feel jealous of your job.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: Right now, the movie just abruptly stops, like we don't
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: know what to do.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: We don't know what to do, but it's not found right.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Because after Cristabella shows up, Milton wants Kevin to in
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: gregnate her so as to conceive the Antichrist.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: But also as like the children of the Devil, aren't
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: they the Antichrist? And do they come together to make
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: a whole Antichrist? Or is it an anti Antichrist? Is
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: it an antipasto? It's very confusing.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do they cancel each other out? If they have
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: sex and have a baby. Is it just the second
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: coming of Christ?
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: What if they accidentally make Jesus?
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I was also a little unclear on why it
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: was so urgent to do it right at that moment,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: not that that is like the biggest even in the
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: top ten issues going on in this scene, but I
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: was like, okay, okay, so it is all of these disgusting,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: horrible things, but couldn't it be next week?
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: Like it's all tied with the political situation in Hong Kong.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: You know it's well he also I the just whatever,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: the ham fistedness of the end, which is I like,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: it is super campy and goofy. But when he's like
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: the twentieth century that never was on fire in the
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: twentieth century, You're like, yeah, whatever.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: Okay, great, sure, I would like I think you should
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: do a Patreon feature. That's just you reciting Alpachino's monologues
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: from the end of this movie.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 7: He talks so much in this last scene he will
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 7: not shut up.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: I like it, really he needs a power point. Really,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: he kind of is giving a ted talk at the
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: end about the devil's behavior throughout the twentieth century. You're like, what,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: and which brings me to my conclusion. You have to
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: have sex with your sister right now to conceive the Antichrist.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: And Kevin is acting like he's about to do that,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: but instead he shoots.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: Himself because the devil is omniscient but not telepathic evidently,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: or maybe it doesn't work on your own kids. If
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: they had made this into a show, we would have
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: gotten more lore. It would have been fun.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: But oh well, and the very flimsy because it's like,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: it feels like the movie just has to end at
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: this point because there's been too many plot points introduced.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: They're like, we gotta stop, we gotta stop. But Keanu,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: being like justifying willingly participating in ancestual assault, He's like, well,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: that's where a crush on you. No, but it for
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: he's about to do it because he had a crush
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: are at work.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: You're just like, yeah, yeah, but he's But he stops
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: and he shoots himself, which makes Milton burst into flames,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: and which makes Cristabella shrivel.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: Up and die.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she turns into a piece of drift. What I
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: think that's pretty fun.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what happens to women who aren't having sex
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: with Keanu Reeves in this movie.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: That actually happens if he stopped being sexually active for
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: a full twenty minutes, he can start desiccating.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, so they seem to die, or at least Crystabella does,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: but Kevin doesn't die despite the gunshot wound to his head. Instead,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: he's transported back to the scene at the beginning of
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: the movie where he's defending that teacher who abuses his students,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: and he he's like, oh my god, I have a
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: second chance. I can redeem myself. So he quits the
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: case mid trial, which you're not supposed to do.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: You're not supposed to do that and all. No, but
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: the optics of if this was some weird like fantasy
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: he had at the urinal or whatever, like, it sort
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: of feels like that. But then he goes back into
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: this very serious trial, this trial where a child has
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: been assaulted, and he starts making out with his wife.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, god, Kevin, it's a very.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: Good point, and also like what's gonna happen? Like is
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: it going to be a mistrial? And then your you know,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: child plaintiff has to go through all this again, like
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 4: use your head, piano. I realize you can't as this character.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: But yeah, but isn't it just wonderful that the ending
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: of this movie is it was all a dreamer? Was
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: it is?
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: It's the only thing this movie hasn't done at this
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: point that you're like sure, like, oh, okay, we're doing it.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: And then al Pacino is, uh, the vanity is my favorite. Shit,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: You're like, what.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: He's playing a journalist, the other most evil profession according
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: to the nineties.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: That's true because the way the movie ends is this
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: minor journalist character who we've seen before, but only at
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: the very beginning. At the very end, he transforms into
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: al Pacino, looks directly at the camera says, ah, yeah,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: vanity my favorite sin, and then he like winks and
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: then cut to black.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: I love it, And then I think, honestly, this movie
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: that has no restraint. I was really impressed that they
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: had the restraint to spend a million dollars on painted
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: black instead of sympathy for the devil. I thought that
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: that was probably really hard for them to not use
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: sympathy for the devil in this movie every single time
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: al Pacino was on screen. And also sympathy for the
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: devil had just been used in Legion or whatever the
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: Denzel Washington Oh movie is, so maybe it was feeling
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: like overplayed. So it does end kind of Judy Dungeon
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: cat style at the end, you have just.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 6: A tale of cats, Like that's sort of the vibe
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 6: of Alba.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: It is like that I.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: Would watch I'm actually watching this on a double bill
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: with cats, like you would emerge no longer able to
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: do math, you know, you.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: Would really be like I can't read. I don't remember
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: where I'm from.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: Fallen is the Denzel Washington movie I'm thinking of when
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 4: that came out in nineteen ninety eight, So that could
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: be your Demonic Rolling Stones double feature as well.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: I did not. No, I also feel like Scorsese uses
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: a needle drop with that song in like four hundred
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: of his movies.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody loves the Rolling Stones like Scorsese loves the
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: Rolling Stones. I'm convinced that's true, and that's why he
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: is Father Cannon And spoilers for the ending of Angel Heart,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 4: where by the way, de Niro is playing playing the
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: devil but doing a Scorsese impression in order to play
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 4: the devil. But it's like, what if Scorsese had long
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 4: nail and it was always eating eggs. It's like, yeah,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 4: what if?
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: What if? I'm in?
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: And then it ends spoilers for Angel Heart, which is
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: a very strange movie.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: I heard of it. Well.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: It ends with Mickey Rourke realizing that he's been had
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: and that he just hasked to go to hell now,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 4: and he just goes to Hell and that's the end,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: and you're like, wow, I don't I mean, I didn't
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: really like that character, but I don't really feel like.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: He deserves to go to hell.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: No, we're ending in hell. Okay, that's the end of
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: the movie. And there's just like there's something to me
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: that's so revealing about like these two endings where it's
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: like you tangle with the devil, you don't really get
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: the chance to make choices. He does a lot of speeches,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: and then at the end you either suffer all consequences
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 4: or no consequences. Yeah, because it feels like it was
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 4: never really about what you did. It's just about the
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: sort of like feeling and masculinity of being damned.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know, right, Well, I guess if you're looking
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: at the movie like it was all a dream, a
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: vision of what his life could have been had he
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: you know, sold out.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: He continue to do the job he does, right.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: Or is it that all of those events did happen
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: and then he just gets like the biggest magic chance
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: at redemption ever, which like he did not deserve. What
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: has he done to earn any kind of redemption? Absolutely nothing.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: The moral of.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: This movie is if you die of suicide, you get
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: a do over, which is not really what we needed
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: to be telling people, And also he transforms into Jesus
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: for a second.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: God, I keep missing Jesus, but with wings so like
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: an angel.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 4: You can't take your eyes off this movie for a second.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 4: It's like a toddler.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: Some shit's gonna happen. It's very bizarre.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: Well, let's take a quick break and then we will
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: come back to discuss.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: And we're back, Sarah. I would love to, if you're down,
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: start this discussion with a little understanding of like the
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: historical context that this movie was coming out into. What
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: was the I know we've sort of been like talking
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: around this for much of the episode, but like, what
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: was the state of Satanic media in the late nineties.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, Yeah, I mean I feel like we had
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: stuff and we can see it in this movie, kind
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: of referencing the millennium approaching and asking this question of
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: like what kind of a millennium are we going to have?
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: Which is very interesting to try and think back to
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: in a pre nine to eleven context, because it turned
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 4: out that the kind of millennium the United States was
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: going to have, at least so far, would have the
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: tone set for us by turning an act of terrorism
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: and tragedy into an opportunity to destabilize an entire region
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: while searching for profit and claiming to be getting revenge
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: while actually doing something unrelated and relying on the average Americans'
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: misunderstandings about geography in order to you know, make a
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: lot of money for Halliburton. So it feels like, interestingly,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: the kind of millennium that we started off with with
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: our decision to start a war in the Middle East
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 4: was one where we got to do anything we wanted
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: by playing the victim. And I think that that's there's
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 4: kind of an interesting It's just interesting to see this movie,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 4: I think partly because it feels like a combination of
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: like these ideas that we had that I think America
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: has historically used about Satan, where I think Satan is
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: kind of the great American scapegoat, where like, if you're
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: claiming to eradicate Satan, you can behave pretty horribly, but
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: if you're claiming to be on the right side of
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: a holy war, then whatever you do is pretty much justified,
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: including genocide if you're talking about the way that North
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 4: America was colonized. And then the very like robust nineties
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 4: genre of the courtroom drama, which I think feels itself
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: to be this very rational, academic kind of mode of
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 4: storytelling that helps make people feel smarter for consuming, or
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 4: at least I think that's part of the basis for
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 4: the appeal, but really is able to tell these highly
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 4: emotional stories that allow Americans to feel that the Constitution
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 4: is often this annoying thing that gets in the way
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: of punishing defendants a little bit too freely because it's
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: politically popular and it's fun to be vindictive.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: Fuck, okay, Sarah, Sarah, you're so smart.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 4: And also we you know, Starbucks has like upholstered chairs.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: At this time, it's just like a wild time to
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 4: be alive. I guess I want to impress you guys.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: You're so smart. No, I mean, yes, that's like so
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: much to think about, but I agree, like because I
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: what I was struggling with, I guess was not really
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: putting myself in the audience for this, but like trying
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: to understand what did the movie want you to walk
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: away thinking, which I think is it's hard to know,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: mostly a craft issue that we don't know. But I'm curious.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: I just I'm like, I was really kind of racking
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: my brain, and that's why I was looking at like
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: adaptation changes and stuff like that to be like, huh,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: what did this very successful movie want us to leave
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: thinking about? And I guess what? I could not figure
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: it out.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: I still don't know. I have similar questions not only
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: regarding the movie overall, the overall narrative and themes, but
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: also as they relate to how we're supposed to view
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: Mary Anne as a character, how we are supposed to
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: be perceiving her, and whether or not we were supposed
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: to be empathizing with her or what.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: Exactly My view was that will leving because I feel
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: like I don't know. She's not a well written character, right,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: but she's better written than I thought she would be
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: in that at least for a good chunk of the movie.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: The things she does have narrative consequence, which most movie
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 3: wives that is just not the case. I felt like
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: we started by empathizing with her and then we end
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: by pitying her, which is, like I thought, like a
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: very unpleasant turn of events.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: That plus I well, because like she starts out, especially
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: upon them moving to New York and Kevin accepting this
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: job and they move into this big, beautiful apartment and
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: now she's tasked because she's the his wife who has
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: given up her job. I think her job in Florida
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: was she was selling repossessed cars.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was like she was doing something
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 4: alone shark related.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so she was also doing both kind of dirt bags,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: but like you know, she had a she was a
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: career dirt bag, and he took that from her.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 4: Get a cell phone and a little suit, and she
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 4: was like doing business on the side of a highway,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 4: which is just such a nineties feminism girl boss thing
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 4: to show.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like when Julia Robberts knows how to fix
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 3: a car and you're supposed to be like and you're like,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: they really do do something there.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: She moved to New York and she starts. The two
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: things we know about her at that point are that
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: she wants desperately to have a baby and she doesn't
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: know how to decorate her apartment. And we're like, okay,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: can we get maybe a third thing?
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: Like what see? I felt like the apartments of it's
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: super clunky. Like I do feel what they're trying to
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: do there is like she's a society wife now and
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: there's like class tension between her and everyone's surrounded by
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: and it does pay off on that, but like for
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: her again, like I just I don't know, Like there
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: were things that I'm like, Okay, it's being done badly,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: but I think I get what they're trying to do,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: But this I don't know, Like just like the same
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: thing with Jackie, who at first I was like, Okay,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: is this going to be a super prescriptive black best
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: friend character that we saw so much throughout the nineties,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: And the answer is yes and also opposite, like I
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: don't know, and also she's a demon, so yeah, I
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: just don't think Jackie should have been either al Pacino
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: nor a demon, because it does end up feeling like
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: Mariann almost has someone to talk to, and I feel
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: like it would have been a more interesting and cohesive
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: choice to write Jackie an actual character and have them
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: like going through this together or like, I don't know,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: like it just felt so clunky the way that like
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: there were elements introduced about mary Anne that like didn't
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: pay off or like went away because they're like she's
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: going mad kind of thing.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Oh my gosh, I've there's so much to
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: unpack here. There's a scene where Marianne and Jackie are
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: talking and mary Anne is trying to adjust to this
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: new life she had been accustomed to working. She says
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: something like, this is the first time since I was
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: thirteen years old where I haven't had at least one job.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: She liked to be out in the workforce, and she
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: liked to be occupied with something that wasn't just like
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: domestic tasks and decorating her house. So she's like lamenting
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: about this to Jackie. Jackie's just like, what are you
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: complaining about. Our husbands are rich and just enjoy the money.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: Let's go shopping and drink chardonnay all day.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: And you're like, wait, she's being written so poorly. And
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: then later it's like, no, we rude her mad on purpose.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 3: She's the consumption demon. You're like, what.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: Right, And it's evil to get any sort of cosmetic surgery,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: And but she's written to be this like very you know, vapid, vein,
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: like spending money frivolously kind of person.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: Well, it's just like the very like gendered way that
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: like sin is presented to where it's like everyone it's
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: not like the women are worse than the it's but
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: it's like they're they're quote aqut bad in these very
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: stereotypical ways where it's like their sins are vanity and
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: their sins are like consumption, and then men's sins are
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: like greed and artisty like, and there's really no overlap
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: except for the character of Pam. Pam is the only
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: woman who has a career, and I do feel like
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: we are allowed to well, I guess that, so does
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: what's her name, missus the devil Crystabella, Yeah, Chris Stabella
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: and pasta or whatever.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, oh yeah, when you're here, your family at
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: the the Devil's Garden, So that's kind of a separate thing.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: And then as Marianne is observing all of these sinful
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: women and trying to confide in Kevin to be like,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: things are really weird, things are very wrong. I don't
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: like our new lives. It feels like we're doing something
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: wrong and I'm seeing demons and blah blah blah, and
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: he is, you know, again, constantly dismissing her and gaslighting
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: her and all of that. What I can't really figure
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: out is if the again, if the movie wants us
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: to empathize with her, or if it wants us to
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: think that she's being hysterical and getting in the way
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: of Kevin's success or a little bit of both. It
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: almost feels to me like, yeah, we're supposed to empathize
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: with her a bit, But also it felt as though,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: and I haven't read anything to this effect, so I
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: can't confirm this, but it almost felt as though the
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: director was like, Hey, really ramp up the hysterics here,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: Charlie's so that we feel like she's almost a foil
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: to Kevin. Because there's that scene where she's she's in
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: the church and she's crying and she's wrapped in a
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: blanket and then she like throws it off of her
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: and she's naked and crying and screaming. Yeah, And I'm like.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: What my like feeling on her is that like we
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: are supposed to think she's telling the truth, because we
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: are given every indication that she's telling the truth. Like
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: if we thought we were supposed to not find her credible,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: we wouldn't see what she sees, right, And so like,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: I don't think that we're supposed to not believe her
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: or I don't know. I guess I didn't see it
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 3: as like we're not supposed to hear as a foil.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: It just felt like she was this kind of like
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: stand in for virtue in a virtueless world. It's like
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: her and the mom that they're like, I don't know,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: like they're the only virtuous way to live is to
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: move back to Florida and go to church for like
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: twenty hours a day.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 4: Right, and it quite your original profession that you were
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 4: going to use to improve your family's financial situation and
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: become a peanut farmer or whatever.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Yeah, I don't.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: Know if it's because we're also in the middle of
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: prepping for an episode on Don't Worry Darling, which is
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: also a movie about and.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 3: Also very Rosemary's Baby coated.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure, but similar to Devil's Advocate. Don't
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: Worry Darling is a movie about a woman who starts
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: to suspect something is very wrong with her husband's job
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: and her husband's boss, and she tries to speak up
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: about it. But that movie. Not to say that that
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: movie is like awesome and perfect or anything like that,
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: but at least it's told from the woman's point of view.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 4: So mag Fenf's eighty percent of Don't Worry Darling was
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 4: from the perspective of Harry Styles, I would not have
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 4: made it right.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: But I guess my point is, I just it felt
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: to me like we are supposed to empathize and or
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: pity the Marian character. But also I feel like the
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: movie is reveling in and exploiting the idea of a
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: woman's hysteria, for sure, And that's part of the the
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: like spookiness of this movie and the tension of this movie.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: When it feels very down in Betty Draper, you know,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 4: and it feels like kind of that also, like to
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 4: the extent that there is a coherent theme happening. And
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: I may be too generous and seeing this in it,
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 4: but it feels like it's you know, kind of you
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 4: can I feel the echoes at least of media about
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 4: the kind of long lineage of men who have signed
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 4: on to value their relationships with scary mentoring men at
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 4: work over what it's doing to their families, and the
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 4: kind of like I don't know, parable of the New
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 4: York professional class.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah that's true. Yeah, I've like, I don't know, it's
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: so incoherent that it's hard Like I feel like she
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: is I mean, ultimately, she is defined and happening in
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 3: reaction to his narrative, right, So it's it's weird because
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: there are like technically a lot of scenes that we
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: see from her point of view, but it's never like,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, her whole story is happening in reaction to
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 3: his by design, And so it's like, I don't know
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 3: it's true, and I feel bad because it's like Shirley's
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 3: is doing her best with what she's given, but it's
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: but it's again, it's like it almost felt like a
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: fake out that they gave her women to talk to,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 3: but like actually they didn't. Yeah, and so I don't know,
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: like there's a cooler version of that character who it's
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 3: like in the same way that you see Keiani's character
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: get more and more depraved, even though he also starts
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 3: that way, So you're like, what is the progression here?
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: Like you also see her become more and more like
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 3: helpless in a way that I don't know what they're
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 3: trying to say.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 4: And like really quickly in kind of a Victorian femininity
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 4: approach where it's like, you know, most women are four
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 4: or five bad dreams away from snapping, and it's like
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: we mental health science has come really quite far in
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 4: the past one hundred years, not as far as it could,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 4: but you know, or.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: Like you're saying, Kaitlin like the hysteric woman trope, where
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: like it's just it's so like inconsistent and weird because
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: I did, like, you know whatever, I didn't like like
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: her character like wow, so compelling, but but like going
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: back to like the beginning where there is a clear
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 3: element of like how she feels about stuff and like
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 3: she feels out of place, and like that is interesting,
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: Like she's a total fish out of water, and we
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: know why you can almost understand like why she ends
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: up like being kind of charmed by the al Pacino character,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: because first of all, he's the devil that's kind of
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: his trademark, but also that like she specifically tells Kevin
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: going into the party, please don't leave me alone and uncomfortable.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: He leaves her alone immediately, and we do see that
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: bear through. She has an Alexander Petrowski well it's like
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: and she's super mad at him. Afterwards, she makes him
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: sleep on the couch and she ends up talking with
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: al Pacino, who is like the only person at the
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: party who isn't making her uncomfortable and it's like, that's
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: wild because if he's doing she'll be making her so uncomfortable. Well,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: because he's.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: Like, your hair like shit. He's like nagging her, your
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: hair looks like shit. But he's like doing it sensually,
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: question mark, And I guess she's.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: Like just doing the devil thing.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 4: And like heures how annoying lawyers are at parties. You
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 4: know that if the devil starts snagging you, you're like, oh,
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 4: thank god.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: Right, You're like, this is the most tolerable person here. Yeah,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 3: I don't know, Like I Marianne, I think is an
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: interesting character, which is like what makes it such a
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: shame that they sort of reduce her to this very
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: tropy thing, for sure, and the end that the fact that,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: and it's like I appreciate that whatever. It's like, when
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: are we going to have kids? Are we going to
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: have kids? Is a big narrative in a lot of
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: people's marriage, but it also feels very like trite to
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 3: be like, and all she wants to do is have
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 3: a baby, But don't worry. It's the nineties and we
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: know that we have to do a little bit of feminism.
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: So she used to have a job and she misses it,
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: so you're like, cool, it does feel yeah, Calen.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 4: The more I think about it, it feels like the kind
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 4: of Victorian hysterical woman where she also is like the
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 4: implication is kind of that she's becoming mentally ill because
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 4: of all the evil around her. Oh yeah, you know,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 4: and this idea of like the Victorian woman as like
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 4: both weaker and more virtuous than men, and therefore, like,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 4: you know, if you're doing something, if you work for
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 4: the devil, your wife's gonna get sick, right.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: Well. Then it's also if I was observing something that
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: I thought was wrong or that seemed evil, and I
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: was trying to tell my partner about it, and he
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: was constantly dismissing me, it, ignoring me and gaslighting me,
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: I would grow increasingly frustrated, and I would also start
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: yelling and screaming and crying. Yeah, and so her behavior
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: is not unjustified. It's just that the movie is like,
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: and oh, but she she's so But I don't even
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: know what the movie is trying to say.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 8: I don't know because it's like that I don't think
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 8: like the movie like the movie can't have it's trying
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 8: to have it always too because they're also styling her
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 8: like a woman who's gone mad, where it like looks
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 8: like she's two black eyes from crying at all times
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 8: and shit like that, and like right.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 4: But we also know what she's saying is true, right,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 4: and that these are like correct visions. There aren't visions exactly,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 4: they're like she's seeing correctly what's going on. But then
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 4: she paints their apartment to look like a global village cafe,
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 4: so that implies that she's losing it.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: She has she has virtue vision, I think is like ultimately,
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: she's she has virtuous goggles on in all times, and
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: Keanu does not have virtuous goggles on, and it kills
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: her question mark like, yeah, I don't, I don't know.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: I wish that she had gone home with his mother.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 4: That would be nice, That's what I wish it had happened. Yeah,
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 4: And that's a nice performance from Ju to th Ivy
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 4: as his tent revival type mom. I feel like, ultimately
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 4: the only character who this movie really cares about is
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 4: the devil, and yeah, that's you know, it's a fun devil.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 4: They did get with the devil.
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 3: I do think, yeah, use that would be a fun
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 3: I don't know enough. Do you have a favorite portrayal
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: of the devil? Sarah as kind of a devilhead yourself,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I put this in the series.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 4: One of my all time favorite devil portrayals is a
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 4: Saturday Night Live sketch that's a parody of the People's
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 4: Court where John Lovett's is the devil and he's trying
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 4: to get damages from the plaintiffs.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: I are.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 4: One of them is Rosanna Arcat, who must have been
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 4: hosting that week because she sold her soul in exchange
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 4: for like three professional hairdryers and stuff, and so it's
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 4: the devil trying to get the People's Court to side
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 4: with him for like, you know, the three thousand dollars
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 4: that he invested in her hair business and exchanged for
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 4: her soul that she then wasn't able to make work.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 4: And I feel like that's it, Like it feels like,
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 4: you know, the devil. I really like depictions where you
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 4: have kind of like a funny, low stakes devil who's
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 4: having a hard time on daytime TV, because I feel like,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 4: in actual execution, it all seems a bit low rent.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 4: You know that you have to like go soul by
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 4: soul trying to get people to sign bad contracts, and
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 4: of course the association of the devil with contract laws
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 4: relatively modern, but I mean I really like that we've
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 4: taken it and like, you know that the devil and
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 4: lawyers do go together and it's about you know, being
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 4: pressured into signing a bad contract and a lot of
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 4: our modern depictions. I also like, I saw a bit
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 4: dazzled at a young age, and we'll always have a
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 4: soft spot for that one. For the Elizabeth Hurley Devil.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a fan of the Elizabeth Hurley Devil. I
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: mean just one styling alone, exactly. Yeah, So I feel like,
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: I like, I always love a comedy devil. And then
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 3: if I'm watching a horror movie where it's like, actually
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 3: the villain is the devil, I'm like, whatever, you know,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: because I feel like the things that like I saw
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 3: I was watching I don't know, like some TikTok about
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: Hereditary the other day where I saw a position I like,
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: surprisingly don't see people state that often, but which I
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 3: really agree with where somebody was like, you know, if
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: only they hadn't had spoilers for Hereditary, if only they
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: hadn't had the whole like Satan worshiping aspect uncovered in
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: Hereditary because like, yeah, we thought that as well, right,
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 3: because like the extreme bleakness of just the interpersonal stuff
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: and the depiction of like a family being really horrible
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 3: to each other while grieving is so scary.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 4: And then you bring in the devil and you're like, ugh, whatever,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 4: you know's a cop out.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: The Devil's usually a cop out.
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 4: I feel like, yeah, I feel like the devil usually
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 4: makes things less scary. So I love a good comedy devil.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think Flanders as the Devil, and tree
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 4: House of Horror is also pretty iconic. Do either of
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 4: you have favorite devil depictions?
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: I'd have to know.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 3: I didn't. I feel like I didn't see the Dazzled
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 3: until I watch it for this show. I don't know.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 3: I think the only devil depiction, oh, you know what,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 3: the Cow and Chicken devil, the little cartoon devil that
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 3: bounces on his own.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 4: But I don't think I remember I remember cowing Chicken.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 4: I don't remember that devil. I got to check that out.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: They had a devil. Yeah, the cartoon network devil is
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: probably my favorite devil. But there you go. But enough
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: about the devil. Let's talk about how race is depicted
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 3: in this movie. Oh yeah, it was the nineties, so
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm sure they did a good job. This
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 3: is a movie that has non white characters. It is
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 3: again like an overwhelmingly white view of New York, but
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: the non white characters who we see are overwhelmingly these
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 3: broad racist stereotypes. I think really with the exception of
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: the two wealthy black characters Jackie and Lee lu.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: And they've they've been corrupted by greed.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 3: They're actually al Pacino or something. So it's like, but
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: even they are like severely underwritten, you know, in comparison
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 3: to the other characters in this world. I mean, I
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 3: guess Jackie is sort of like the only quote unquote
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 3: friend at any point to Maryanne. But again, she's whatever
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 3: they're to either be like I'm gonna teach you how
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 3: to be a society wife, or like its just everything
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 3: she does is in reaction to Maryanne or al Pacino,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: Like she doesn't really exist independently. And then they make
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: that canon, which is a choice, right.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: And then with her husband Lehman, he's barely a character,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: but he he's the guy who approaches Keanu in Florida
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 2: to be like, hey, come up to Yeah, he says something.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: He thinks that he's being pranked. He's like, oh hah,
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: I can put you up to this. You being black
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: is a part of the Joe right, And I'm like,
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: what are you talking about?
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 4: Like what was going on in Florida law firms in
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 4: nineteen ninety seven.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, I was like, I guess that that is
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 3: a realistic depiction of a random white guy at a
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 3: bar in Florida. Is that he's true weird and racist,
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 3: But like, yeah, that so there's like a lot of
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 3: offhand comments about that most black and brown characters appear
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: as antagonists or just like, I mean, I'm thinking about
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 3: the guys on the train are portrayed in this very
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: stereotypical way. One of the two unhoused people who kills
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: Jeffrey Jones is a black cacharacter that I didn't even
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: want to like rehash the specific stereotypes there, because you
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 3: know what they are. But it's just like, yeah, it
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 3: is very nineties in its portrayal of race. The Delroy
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 3: Lindo character.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I think you were alluding to this toward
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: the top of the episode, Sarah, But the question of
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: because Kevin defends his character in court saying that he
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: was simply carrying out a religious practice, which he has
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: the constitutional right to do.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 3: At darn constitution.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: But he's making the argument like we might think that
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: killing a goat at home is weird in our Western
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: Christian world, but is it any weirder than eating veal
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: or getting circumcised or other cultural practices that we deemed
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: to be normal. And it's like, yeah, fair point. But
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: it feels like the movie is presenting all of this
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: as like we are still supposed to think that Filipe
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: Moyees is like weird and what he's doing is really
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: fucked up.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 3: Because he had to hire the devil to defend him,
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 3: like that tells you everything you need to know about it.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 4: And he's got too many candles, like he's either shooting
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 4: a Celine Dion music video or he's worshiping the devil.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 4: As the implication I feel like.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 3: And now, if Joel Schumacher had been staging the Candle set,
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 3: Oh Boy, based on what we know about his Phantom
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 3: of the Opera sets, it would have just it felt
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 3: a little slap dash. There's a better director to have
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: a room full of candles.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that felt all over the place and racist
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: in the way that that character is portrayed.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 4: And the idea is that right that, like Hannah Reeves
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 4: is making sort of a classic nineties liberal argument of
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 4: like multiculturalism is good and it's like too much culture
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 4: equals devil.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 4: I think Law and Order was also pointing out a
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 4: time it's like, don't be too tolerant. You could be
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 4: tolerating the devil.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: Devil.
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, so that's a mess.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 3: He's just a mess. This movie's just a weird mess,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: like mess see and yet weirdly well executed.
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 4: Like the art design is fantastic, it looks great, it
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 4: looks the editing I think is done very well. And
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 4: then in terms of theme, you're like, what.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 3: You have to imagine that they were editing around a lot.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 4: But including al Pacino speaking Spanish sort of.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: But the just a little more about the production. I mean,
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: we've talked about a lot of it. Some of it's
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 3: just funny, which is that al Pacino hated Taylor Hackford,
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 3: the director, and would always show up late and was like,
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 3: I hate this guy. He allegedly did not like Keanu
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 3: and thought Keanu was doing a bad job, which is
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 3: mean to say, but is it incorrect to say we
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 3: don't know? Oh, and that speaking to your earlier points,
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 3: Sarah that this movie was sort of languishing in production
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 3: for a while, but then got a real shot to
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 3: the arm when the O. J. Simpson case happened. They
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 3: were like, oh, this is now's the time to do this,
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 3: and now we've got.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 4: A green light, these evil lawyer movie.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you might even say this movie was in development.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 3: Hell, that's where the Devil lives. Albacina's keeping the movie
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 3: inside of the inside of his room two ears, big
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 3: fuck rough that he lives in everywhere.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 4: So it's like, you don't ever want to just lie down, really,
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 4: even if you don't, even if you don't.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: Need to sleep, it's nice to lie down.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 3: It's so nice to lie down.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: It's my favorite thing to do.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: Colin, you don't want to lie down? The Devil doesn't
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 3: need floor time? Am I really to believe that? But yeah,
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 3: I'm like I think that. That's Oh. The last thing
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 3: I wanted to say was about Pam, uh.
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: Because I left her out of the recap altogether because
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: I was like, who who even is Pam? But Louise,
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: please continue.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 3: I like Pam. Also, Pam is played by an actor
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 3: named Deborah Monk, who had never heard of but she
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 3: has a tony and emmy.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: So wow, she's halfway to egotting.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 4: Now that you know Deborah Monk's face, you're going to
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 4: see her in everything. I feel like she's kind of
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 4: the cherry of this firm.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 3: Perhaps I whatever the character is random, but I did
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 3: feel like it just brought up another nineties Ish trope
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 3: where there's two women that work at this law firm.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: One is the daughter of the devil. We know that
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 3: she is multilingual, but we don't really know what she
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: does because she's there to be hot, which is not
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 3: saying anything about the actor as saying that's how this
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 3: part was written for Connie Nielsen. But Pam is allowed
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 3: to just be good at her job, and I think
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 3: the reason that is is because she is in her
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 3: forties and is not rail Finn, which is the like
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 3: in the nineties.
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 4: I think you're allowed to be good at your job
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 4: as a woman and actually depicted doing it occasionally if
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 4: you're like menopausal and are wearing a top with big
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 4: buttons on it.
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 3: Right, I mean, well, it's just like the another example
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 3: of like you just can't win no matter who you are.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 3: Of like, sure if we are if we are telling
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 3: you that this character is not sexually desirable, then we
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 3: will be okay with her being just canonically good at
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 3: her job. You're like, now, what the fuck?
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: What the fuck?
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 3: I guess she's on The Gilded Age, which is a
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 3: show that I watch, So there you go.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, anyways, I cap meaning to watch that. I like
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 4: to see Cynthia Nixon do something else.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 3: You'd love, you'd love the damn Gilded Age. But my mom,
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 3: I love a big over the top house. It's a
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: show to watch with your mom. It's good.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: Is Christine Baranski in it? Or remind me?
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, she and Cynthia Nix and our sisters, which genius,
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 3: oh genius casting. Yeah.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 4: I do think my mom would get bored very quickly
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 4: if there's not like one murder per episode, because she's
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 4: very like that's what she expects out of TV.
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 3: Point.
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 4: But you know, we can always I can always edit something,
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 4: and you could.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 3: Just edit a random murder into everything, yeah, and then
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 3: I'll be like, there you go, someone's dead.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 4: I just feel like I cut from unsolved mysteries, and
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 4: then I'll be like, Okay, this is all about the murder.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 4: It may not be clear right now, but they're investigating
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 4: the murder by having sex in this nice bed but
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 4: can't to que and cover.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 3: I really liked the story.
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 4: That they got in legal trouble with like this sort
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 4: of statue, the big like art piece behind al Pacino's
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 4: desk in his big Devil office because an artist who
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 4: had made a very similar sculpture sued and they were
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 4: gonna maybe not be able to release it on time
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 4: for home video if they and so they had to
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 4: like go back and kind of incredibly at this point
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 4: in time digitally alter the footage of this art piece
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 4: so that it, whoa basically wasn't too similar to the
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 4: the artist's previous piece, which apparently they were emulating pretty closely,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 4: and so we're only had like human figures trapped in
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 4: this kind of mailstorm mailstrom, mailstrom, that's probably the word.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 4: So they like had to it's definitely not male storm,
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 4: that would just be a lot of male and a cyclone.
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 4: But so they had to smooth the human figures out
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 4: of this piece until the kind of big final monologue
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 4: scene when they're allowed to be there again. But it's
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 4: I guess you think about the people who had to
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 4: do that job.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 3: That's so funny to me because like, no matter which way,
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 3: no matter what way you hack it, it looks like shit.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, so that also. Yeah, I also saw that
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: they used Pacino's like Godfather Too face to digitally edit
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: in for.
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 4: When He's which no one will notice.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: That movie is only twenty years old at this time.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: That movie is an obscure little film.
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: No one's ever seen that.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that was everything I had. This movie
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 3: was very successful, but I do feel like, and let
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 3: me know if I'm just if this is like an
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 3: I've missed the boat thing. But I do think this
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 3: movie has sort of been lost to time. It didn't
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 3: really have staying power.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 4: I agree, right, It's one of those movies that did
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 4: really well at the time, but like, who's ever like,
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 4: come on, Sonny Boy or fourteen, time to watch The
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 4: Devil's Advocate. You're gonna learn so much about life.
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be fun, though this is this has
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: been lost to time to the point where I barely
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: knew what this movie was and I thought I.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 3: Thought it was completely differentime. I was thought it was
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 3: Met Joe Black, and you thought it was The Devil's
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 3: The Devil's own none of my business.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 4: This movie would play well in a double feature with
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 4: The Devil Wears Prada, which is also about having a
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 4: demanding boss and a partner who doesn't like it.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 3: Wow, and I would like to see that.
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 3: Does this movie pass the backdel test? I think if
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 3: we're to believe that everyone in the cast is not
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 3: secretly al Pacino.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, because Marion talks to women like Jackie and
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: Pam and maybe a third woman.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 4: A mother in law reads the Bible to her, which
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 4: says about stuff.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: Alice her mother in law.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 3: There is a random third woman who appears for just
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 3: the one scene to be in her undoor and be like,
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 3: sin is amazing. You're like, who the fuck are you?
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure she's the wife of the Jeffrey Jones character.
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 3: I think that's bomber for her in general.
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, but yeah, they're talking about chardonnay and boobs. I
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: mean what passes the more than two women talking about boobs.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 3: You ever talked with your girlies about boobies? At Yeah?
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 3: I mean I have talked about boobies with my friends
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 3: at the store. But there's so much more to me
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 3: than that. I also talk about butts with my friends
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 3: at the store.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: That is equally important those two things.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 3: That's seen as a documentary. Yeah, it does technically past
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: against and I think it actually does credibly pass the
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 3: Bechdel test. But with it i'm usual caveat. But as
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 3: we've been saying for ten years now, that doesn't mean
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 3: it's a feminist movie.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: So let's get to the actual metric, the metric that
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: does mean shit, which is the Bechdel cast nipple scale,
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. And well,
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: I think this is a half nipple shrug for reasons
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 2: I can't even articulate. I don't even know why I
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 2: would give it as many as one half nipple, but
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: I guess because we like do cut back to Mary
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: Anne pretty frequently and like check in with her and
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: what she's going through, which is a very relatable experience
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: for many women. So because a lot of women are
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: married to men who maybe not literally work for the devil,
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: but they're doing very evil work in their lives.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 3: So my friend's husband works at Meta.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: Oh yikes. So yeah, I'll give this a half nipple.
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: And I guess i'll give it to Charlie's there, and
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know, she's doing her best. She's doing her best.
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna I don't for some reason. I'm gonna
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 3: give it one. I'm gonna give it one because and
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 3: it's and I give the nipple to Fun conceptually.
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 4: I love Fun and.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 3: This movie is it true? No, this movie is not feminist.
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 3: It is it does poorly in terms of it mentions
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 3: gender roles, and then proceeds to really do nothing with it,
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 3: and then have the male protagonist who's the literal son
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 3: of the devil maybe or maybe not, The ends with
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 3: him experiencing no consequence.
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 2: So don't worry. This is another story about a male
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: redemption arc maybe but not.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 3: But they don't even bother to redeem him. He just
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 3: I guess he shoots himself with that, like he gets
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 3: to learn nothing, which is ideal. Yeah, so it is
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 3: a very comfortable movie for bad men to watch. I
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 3: don't know. The al Pacino performance is so funny to
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 3: me everywhere. Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna give it one nipple.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 3: For some reason, I cannot be held accountable for this writing,
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 3: and I'm gonna give it to the line read everywhere
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 3: nice yepes Sarah.
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 4: Well, I'm gonna give a nipple to the line read
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 4: I'm a fan of Man, which I've always loved.
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 4: That last speech by the Devil like almost makes some
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 4: good points, and then it's like, have sex with your sister,
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 4: and you're like, all right, never mind, mind.
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 3: It is wild that it lands there because he's just
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 3: been talking for I know it's not actually twenty minutes,
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 3: but at least ten minutes. He is like talking in
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 3: circles and he's like, so, as I was saying have
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 3: sex with your sister, You're like, how did we land there?
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 3: How is that where that speech ends?
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: At one point he stops and then starts again.
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it's fantastic. It's sort of like my favorite
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 3: kind of bad movie climax where it's just happening in
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 3: a room but there's really not any actions and right,
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 3: so he's just walking in a circle for like ten minutes.
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 4: It is a big room, so he does have space
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 4: for that. But he's the Yeah, he's the devil. He's
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 4: got a big old room. I mean, if not for
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 4: al Pacino, no one would have watched this thing. You know,
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 4: imagine if they got like Gene Hackman, it would just
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 4: it would have been a whole other deal.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. I mean maybe it would have been okay,
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 3: But like, would I have seen al Pacino as the devil? Like?
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 3: That's it just makes sense that puts butts in seats.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 3: That's one hundred million dollars at the box office.
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 4: Like, I kind of the thing is, I kind of
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 4: do believe that he could be the devil, like and
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 4: I do believe this depiction of the devil because he's
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 4: like just fundamentally annoying, which I think is like biblically accurate.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 3: And I also I like, just not in a.
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 4: Particularly well considered way, but from my heart, I want
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 4: to give part of that nipple to Charlie's there and
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 4: just for like be putting up sample wall treatments while
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 4: she's got an entire fried piece of chicken in her
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 4: mouth from Popeyes. I just think that's very iconic behavior,
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 4: and it was inspiring to me in some obscure way.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: She's also putting what I think are some of the
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: ugliest colors to paint on your wall.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 4: I know, that's like not even on design sense or
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 4: whatever that horrifying show was. Were they doing that?
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: One is like a Shrek green one that.
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 3: Was my childhood bedroom color. I think I think ultimately
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 3: I liked I was like, just let her make her
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: apartment tacky. Come on, the tacky is awesome and fun.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 3: It really is the jab. But Jackie said no TACKI
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 3: no tacky for.
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 2: Jackie, no TALKI for Jackie.
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 3: So Charlie's is just shit out of luck because Jackie
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 3: said no tacky. We got it. Well, we gotta end.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: No episode, Sarah, where can we find the new show?
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 3: When does it come out? Tell us everything?
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 4: So the new show, it's an eight part mini series.
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 4: It's called The Devil.
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 4: I think by the time you're hearing this, new episodes
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 4: will already be coming out premieres or has premiered October twentieth.
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 4: We're going to be putting episodes out through mid December.
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 4: There are bonus episodes if you want to hear them,
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 4: or we get more interviews for context, including getting to
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 4: talk to a galer fan theory scholar. Wow, and so
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 4: you can hear it wherever Fine Podcasts are distributed, and
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 4: you can also catch the first episode on the feet
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 4: of my own every two weeks show You're Wrong About,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 4: which is about misremembered history and Jamie, you and I
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: have a bonus episode this very month of October when
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 4: I'm talking to you about bimbos.
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 3: Who would have thought? And I'm so happy to be
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 3: putting that one out too. I love that you're too.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, you have many areas of expertise, but in
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 3: the easily the top five are bimbos and the Devil.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 4: But really, yeah, because what do we hate? What's more
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 4: evil than like the Prince of Darkness? It's a woman
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 4: who wears a lip color that we don't like.
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 3: It's true, and that's why the Elizabeth Hurley performance of
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 3: the Devil is the definitive one. Oh my god, listeners,
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 3: thank you for joining us for this episode that's not
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 3: quite as long as the Devil's Advocate, but closer than
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 3: you think. Please illegally pirate this movie. Don't give them
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 3: any money, but like it is a fun movie to
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 3: watch with friends.
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Devil wants you to steal, so do it.
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 3: The Devil loves when you use one, two, three movies
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 3: dot ru and it breaks your computer. I like doing that.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 3: I was like, I think it has reduced the whatever
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 3: we're bringing back pirrating. And you can follow us in
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 3: all the normal places, that being mainly Instagram, And you
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 3: can join our Patreon aka Matreon, where every month we
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 3: do two original episodes on a theme of ours or
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 3: you are choosing always something weird like Lawyer Bewery, question Mark.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 3: If you want that, maybe five bucks a month gets
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 3: you that and access to our hundreds of episodes in
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 3: our back catalog.
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: Indeed, and with that, shall we go shopping and undress
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the store while we're drinking chardonay
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 2: and touch each other's boobs.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 3: Sure, but I might secretly be out, but you know,
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 3: I hope you are. That's a king for some people,
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 3: all right, Bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 3: production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by Me Jamie Loftus.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 2: Sophie Lichtermann and.
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 3: Edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them?
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: That's me and our logo and merch and all of
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus ever
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: heard of her?
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 3: Oh My God, and our theme song, by the way,
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 3: was composed by Mike Kaplan.
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 3: Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 3: Aristotle Ascevedo.
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: Spectelcast