Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 687: Skipping First-Time Screenwriting Mistakes with Naomi Beaty

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IFH 687: Skipping First-Time Screenwriting Mistakes with Naomi Beaty · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number six eighty seven. Compromise for your dream,
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but never Compromise on your dream. Im Ron con Broadcasting from the back alley
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in Hollywood. It's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how
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to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz.
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And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode
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of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari.
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Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your
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independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for independent
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If you want to order it, just head over to www dot film
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bizbook dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Now, guys, today
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on the show, we have Naomi Batti and she is a screenplay consultant,
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a screenwriting teacher and former studio executive that worked on films like Twilight, Percy
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Jackson and The Lightning Thief, and The Stanford Prison Experiment. And she also
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runs a website called Write plus Co. And she works with screenwriters on helping
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them get from idea to final product, helps them look at things from a
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studio's perspective, and helps them avoid a lot of the mistakes, these first
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time mistakes and mistakes in general that she sees and has seen after reading thousands
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and thousands of screenplays over the course of her career. We had a really
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interesting conversation. We go off the deep end a little bit sometimes analyzing films
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and talking about shows and projects and things like that, but we get into
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the details about how to avoid some of these mistakes as well as what a
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studio is looking for and how to better prep your project to be noticed by
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the studio. So, without any further ado, please joy my conversation with
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Naomi Beatty. I'd like to welcome to the show. Naomi Beatty. How
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are you? I'm good, how are you? Thank you so much for
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being on the show. I truly appreciate. We've been playing phone tag for
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a little bit, so with all this craziness going on the world, it's
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difficult to get to get on. But I really appreciate you coming on now.
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I wanted to ask you first question, how did you get into the
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business? Oh? Well, I moved to la with a hope and a
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dream. No stifly yeah, And basically a week later I was working as
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an assistant to a process manager. That was the first person I worked for
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in LA and really just started learning about the business. Through that job.
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I really had no I knew that movies were made somehow, I had no
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idea how they were made or who made them. So that first job was
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really a big, you know, a big part of my education and just
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giving me sort of an review of how the industry works. And you work
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a lot with screenwriters, obviously I do. Yeah, I work with screenwriters
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every day. Now, how did you get into that side of the business.
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Well, So, after working for that producer manager, I went to
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work in development at another production company and so got to sort of really see
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the nuts and bolts of what happens in development. And then after that I
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went to work for Blake Snyder on his He was working on his second book,
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and so he helped me for he asked me to come, he helped
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me, He asked me to come help him work on that book. And
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after that, you know, I feel like people just started sort of approaching
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me and asking me to give them notes on their scripts. And then it
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became what I did full time. So very nice. And how was it
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working with Blake? Oh, he's I mean, he was a great guy,
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you know. He I actually met him through my first job. He
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was friendly with the producer manager that I worked for, so I had known
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him for a few years before. He was writing that second book and asked
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me to come help out on it. And he was just always one of
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those guys who was super generous with his time, always took a genuine interest
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in people, you know. So, yeah, it was a good experience.
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And for people who don't know who Blake is, Blake Scheider wrote the
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the pinnacle book, if you will, call Save the Cat, which has
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kind of revolution a revolutionized Hollywood, that's for sure. When that book came
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out, and so many people because I think he was the first one to
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kind of really simplify structure in a way that no one had before. It
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Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, I think that that's one
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of the things that makes it sort of sort of an enduring, you know,
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go to in kind of the screenwriting education space, is because it makes
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structure so accessible and so, you know, I always recommend Save the Cat
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as sort of if someone's interested in learning about structure, that's like the first
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place I think you should go, because even though there's much more to learn
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after that, and you know, you can read a lot of other books
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that gives you like a really good, concise and accessible overview of how structure
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works. Now, when you've written, you've read a few screenplays in your
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day, I'm assuming a few. Yeah, So what is the biggest mistake
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you see in hit either season scripts or fresh new writer scripts. Gosh,
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that's a big question because I think there are you know, there are you
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read enough scripts and you sort of see patterns. There are a lot of
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sort of buckets that these you know, issues fall into. I would say
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maybe for beginning screenwriters, it's working on their first or second screenplay. It's
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not really understanding how to create sort of a forward momentum in the story.
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There they have scenes and maybe visuals in their head, but they don't really
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understand each scene needs to make progress in the plot or in the character development
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or something, you know what I mean. So it's sort of when you
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read those scripts that can feel, you know, like we're just observing somebody's
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thoughts versus watching a story play out, watching a character pursue something. Yeah.
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I've when I've read scripts a lot of times, especially from first time
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writers, they will just sit there and then like I always use the room,
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the infamous of the room for like scenes, like you're supposed to cut
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out stuff that is not necessary, and yet there's just one scene that's just
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so I love that movie, by the way, is like when He Comes
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there's a scene where they come into a coffee shop and order coffee, but
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you see two other people order coffee before the main characters walk in. They
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have no meaning in the story. That'soever. Yeah, and that's the kind
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of stuff you're talking about, right, Yeah, I mean I think that
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that that movie could be really educational for a lot of people. But yeah,
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that's that's a great example. It's sort of like I guess, I
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guess it's it's in any form of storytelling, you want to get to the
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point, and you don't want to get to the point to the degree that
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you know there's no sort of detail or ornamentation or suspense built or something like
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that, but you do want to keep things moving because people get bored really
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quickly. So you know, that's really the thing that I don't know that
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the thing that you should keep in mind all the time is like what's your
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reader's reaction to this or or your audience's reaction to this. Are they engaged
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by this? If not, like, let's move it along. You know.
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And when you know a lot of a lot of screenwriters, when I
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talk to them, they always ask me like what is the um? Like
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what's the magic number? As far as how many pages you've got to be
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really, you know, to grab somebody's attention, Like how how how long
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do I have before the reader just throws it away because there's six thousand other
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scripts that they have to read. Yeah, I've I've heard a range of
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things. I mean for myself because I'm usually working with the writer, so
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obviously I'm reading the whole thing and I'm giving it all of my attention.
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But you know, if you are submitting a script to someone who doesn't sort
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of have that obligation to you, right, and they're reading it to see
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what's in it for them, I mean I've heard people say they can tell
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within the first couple of pages whether they want to keep reading. And I
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think it is true, Like the point of every page is to make you
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want to turn the page and read the next one, right, So each
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page does have to be engaging. But I think I've really if I'm just
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reading a script for fun, which hardly ever happens anymore. But if I
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am, I mean just for pleasure. You know, I really notice it
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if something isn't happening within the first fifteen pages, if it doesn't feel like
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I know that the story has started and I have a sense of kind of
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what we're dealing with and where it's going, I'm sort of like a I
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don't have any more time to spend on this. You know, we'll be
9:56
right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show
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and the Well. Okay, so when you're when you're reading these scripts,
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the description dialogue obviously are very important. Can you please explain to the audience
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the importance of the white page and how keeping it as white as possible,
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Because that was when I was first writing, uh and writing my first scripts.
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I thought it was a novel, and I wrote so much description and
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so much detail. It was just like I was so I was so happy
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with myself because I was writing all this beautiful, colorful, seventy five cent
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words even oh it's great, yeah, and I did every every word of
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that description was poetry. It was it was I don't know why Hollywood never
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just understood my genius. I just don't understand. Well, I will say
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so, white space on the page is important. I mean a lot of
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people talk about, you know, not wanting to look at the first page
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of a script and see a wall of black, right because it just it
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sort of makes your heart sink if you're like, oh, this is what
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I'm going to be reading. Cool, okay, you know, like you
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want it to feel sort of breezy and like there's movement, and white space
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helps you give that feeling. Right. It's um, it makes the read
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faster, which is something that you should be striving for anyway. Right,
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it sort of helps our eye travel down the page if it's not just a
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block of black and it's you know, you're sort of like your your eye
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is moving across the lines in a way that is swift and sort of carries
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us and adds momentum to the story. So all those reasons, I think
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it's important to think about white space. And really, you know, the
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more text you put on the page, the more the more the more information
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you're giving your reader to process, and that both down the read just you
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know, sort of the logistics of reading it. It blows you down.
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But then it also, you know, it makes it hard for the reader
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to sort of key in on the important aspects of what you're telling us.
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Right, if you're telling us lots of stuff, we're like, Okay,
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who am I supposed to be paying attention to which actions are the most important,
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which reactions are the most important. So for that reason, you know,
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sort of cutting away the things that are less important is helpful to the
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reader because you're focusing our mind's eye on what really does matter in the story.
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Yeah. When I wrote, when I write books, I feel so
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much more free because I could just write and write and write, and I
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don't have to worry about this kind of like economy of words. But screenwriting
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is such a specific skill that you need to be able to get the point
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across well well written. Like you said, breezy is a great word,
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Um breezy. Like I always, I love reading Shane Black scripts, especially
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stuff did back in the eighties and the nineties. I mean, his descriptions
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were just they were poetry, but they're one line, one or two lines.
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Yeah, yeah, great, that is that's a talent to be able
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to describe things so concisely. But evocatively. I mean that is you know,
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like you said, that really is poetry. So yeah, and and
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and then Sorkin for so Sorkin and Tarantino for dialogue, like you read you
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read their dialogue and it's just so crispy and it just pops. Yeah,
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it's great. And with Sorkin, you don't even mind that his you know,
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his first draft is one hundred and forty pages or whatever, because it's
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so much fun. It's so fun to read, you know, the walk
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what is it? The walk and talk? That was his that's his things,
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the walk and Talkie does the walk and talk very very well. Um.
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Now, dialogue is one area of screenwriting that a lot of well,
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there's so many areas of screenwriting people get have difficulty with. The dialogue is
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one of them because people will write the dreaded on the nose dialogue, which
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I was. I definitely did a lot of that. Um. I remember
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my first coverage and some of my first screenplays, and and you know,
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the reader was like on the nose and I'm like what And I didn't even
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know what on the nose meant? Yeah, and I had to look it
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up. I was like, wow, Okay, So can you explain on
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the nose dialogue? Can you explain little tips and tricks of how to get
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away from on the nose dialogue? Because I think it is a kind of
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a curse or cancer on the screenwriting space if I'm not mistaking, well,
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yeah, I mean I think that you know, good dialogue is sort of
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like pornography. Right, It's like you know what when you see it,
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but you can't explain it. It's it not yeah, I got it.
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So it is hard to to to tell someone, Okay, this is bad
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dialogue, So this is how to make it better, because there are so
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many sort of elements that go into making dialogue good, like what we would
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call good right, that sort of it gets the story point across that you
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need it too, so it's like action in words, right, And then
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also that it brings out the character. It's um, it's sort of in
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base character in the choice of words and and all that stuff. So so
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it's I think it's very hard to sort of talk about dialogue like improving dialogue.
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But since you ask about on the nose dialogue, I would say on
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the nose dialogue is dialogue that states outright exactly what the character is thinking and
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or exactly what they're requesting, you know, exactly what they're asking for,
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And so reading conversations that are very on the nose can often feel really boring
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because it's just it's I don't know, it's like it's like listening, well,
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yeah, it's like listening to the you know, to the like boring
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married couple in the next boothover and their conversation and you're like, wow,
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there is no flirtation here, there's no like, you know what I mean.
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Like, usually if you see people on a first date, there's there's
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a lot of subtext, right because they're sort of like doing the seduction thing
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without saying it because they're on a first date they don't know each other that
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well. But if you listen to an old married couple, you're like,
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wow, they're just coming right out with whatever is on their mind and whatever
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they want the other person to do or say or think. You know,
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So, um, I've digressed. But I think that on the nose dialogue.
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I think of it as just coming right out and saying exactly what's on
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the character's mind. So yeah, I would agree with you. Going back
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to my wife and I first date and how we talk now is completely different
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than then because now it's just like, look, man, this is just
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the way it is, and there is something to be said. That's why,
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as I think it was Rond the Psykes who says, as you get
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older, you give less of a crap about anything. That's why when you're
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eighty, the guy will walk out in his underwear with his rob on and
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his socks in public and he just doesn't care and he'll say whatever he wants
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to say because he's just given. He's just giving it up without question.
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Well, I think you know to go back to like sort of the first
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date versus like married couple conversations. Right there's I'm certainly not putting down the
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conversations of married couples because they think by the time you've been together for a
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lot of years, you figure out that you have to ask for exactly what
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you want, right because well, because otherwise he's not going to take out
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the garbage or she's not gonna like find your shirt for you or whatever it
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is. So you figure out that you have to sort of come right out
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and that that person's not going to mind that you're coming right out and asking
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for what you want, right, But on the first date, those two
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people are still trying to figure out what they can ask for and how they
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can get what they want from the other person, and so it's much more
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of a game. Right. So you know that might be a terrible like
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metaphor Oh no, no, it makes all the sense more because the only
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time my wife and I have any issues is was she wants she wants me
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to read her mind. So if I it's just like, can you I
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didn't you understand what I was saying? I'm like, why didn't you just
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tell me you wanted to do that? I would have been more happy to
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do that. You know, because men are very simple creatures. As a
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simple there's just very blunt. We're blunt objects. Were blunt objects. Um,
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this should be dialogue in a script right now, this is this is
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going back and forth between us. You can just tell your just be more
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on the nose, honey. She needed to these just beyond the nose,
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just beyond the nose. Now, you did say something called you said you
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mentioned the word called subtexts, which is something that is another area of dialogue
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writing that UM is really I think misunderstood and very underused. Um. Because
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if you start analyzing old movies or just good, well written movies, well
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performed movies. Um a look can say a thousand words emotion. Uh,
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you know he put the glass down, you know, he washed the dishes,
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the way he was washing the dishes, or the way she was washing
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the dishes, said volumes about what was going on because he just knew that
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she was cheating on him, her he was cheating on her or something like
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that. That's subtext and my and I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.
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Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe the simplest way for me to
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think about subtext is sort of, what's what's really going on in the scene
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beyond just what the characters are are sort of telling us with their with their
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words or their dialogue, right, or even their simple actions. So it's
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what is this scene really about versus what are each of the characters pretending that
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it's about, you know. So that's kind of like the general way I
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guess I would think about subtext. But subtext also has a lot to do.
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I mean, it has a ton to do with, you know,
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the character's motivations and them trying to get what they really want without being too
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obvious about it and all that stuff, But it also has a ton to
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do with theme, right, and what the sort of what the story is
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about kind of in the big picture. So I think another way to think
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about subtext is like when you step back from the movie, what was it
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really saying or what was it really We'll be right back after a word from
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our sponsor, and now back to the show trying to convey, And then
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how was that sort of layered into every scene as well. There's a scene
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in The Bodyguard Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner's Bodyguard where I think the old personal
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bodyguard of Whitney and he comes in and he feels threatened, and there was
20:26
something that happened, and they went to the kitchen scene if you remember the
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kitchen scene where I think Kevin Costner is eating an apple and the other guy
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comes in and they say no words and they just start to fight, and
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you know, and it's just this back and forth of like who's who's in
20:41
control, who's the alpha, and at the very end, without saying words,
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it was just motion. At the very end, Kevin Costu's works,
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like, I just don't want to talk about this again and walks out.
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It was so it was so wonderfully. But that's subtext and in a broader
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way, but it is subtext. U. Yeah, A good subtext is
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it just makes the scene. Yeah, yeah, it really does. And
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that sounds like a great example. I'll have to go back and revisit that
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one and look at it. Another one that comes to mind, and this
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is a little bit um. This is a little bit less sort of you
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know, pure subtexts what we're talking about, and a little bit more just
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really clever execution. But if you remember that scene in the Wire where they
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go to the crime scene and the only dialogue in the scene is the F
21:30
bomb there, do you remember that they're solving they're solving the crime as they're
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looking around this crime, but the only word they use. Remember, and
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you're like, I know exactly what's going on in their heads. I know
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exactly what they're saying, even though it's only one word. You know,
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it was it was. I remember that it was in the kitchen. It
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was in the kitchen, and they were kind of going back and forth.
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It was just like f bomb, F bomb, F bomb, F bomb
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all over the place. And I think I remember even turned to my wife
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off like that was a really amazing scene. Yeah, because they said good,
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Oh I canna say and again that's that's a little bit less like the
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kind of subtexts that we're talking about and a little bit more just like really
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clever execution and great performance. But it does, like if you watch it,
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it does still give you an idea of what can be done, what
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can be said without saying it directly. You know, can you give any
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tips on subtext because I think it is just a part of dialogue writing that
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is is not talked about enough and it's so powerful if you if you can
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nail it. It's so like that scene that those two scenes I just said
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that we just talked about. Y. Yeah, Well, I think I
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think probably the place to start is by understanding what your characters are really doing
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in the scene and then finding a way too. So it's sort of I
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think I think a lot of times writers come at a scene thinking that they
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know, you know, what each character wants, and then they just start
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writing the scene out without really thinking about how to construct the scene in maybe
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the most interesting way or you know, unexpected way, right, And I
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think if you start back there and think about what do each of my characters
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really want and why can't they just come right out and say it? Right?
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Then think about like what might they do to try to get that Since
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they can't come out and say it, might they you know, come into
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the scene acting angry when they're not really angry and start, you know,
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pick a fight about something else because they're really trying to get her to,
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I don't know, admit she's mad about this other thing or whatever it is.
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Right, it's like, figure out what that subtext is, what's really
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going on kind of underneath what they're going to do or what they're going to
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say, And then if you know that, then you can sort of build
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the scene on top of that so that they're going after those hidden wants.
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If that makes sense. Now, what makes a good protagonist? Oh,
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that's a that's a big question and too. I mean, I think it's
24:02
somebody that we want to watch right like that. They have to be compelling
24:06
to us in some way, and that can happen in a lot of different
24:07
ways. They can be really sympathetic, they can you know, they can
24:12
be the underdog. They can be somebody who's really good at what they do.
24:15
So that we're just fascinated by watching them do their thing. John Wick
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comes to mind, right, you know, they can be somebody who's really
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funny. I think that they just have to be compelling to us in some
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way, and there's a lot of different ways to achieve that. And you
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know, a lot of you know, there's a lot of men talk about
24:34
the hero's journey and it is a staple of all stories in the one way,
24:37
shape or form, though I mean, the detective story can't have a
24:41
hero's journey as much. There are certain limitations to it. But but like
24:48
a character like James Bond, one of the most famous characters of all time,
24:52
he never changes. There is no hero's arc for him. He is
24:56
the exact same person, except for maybe the the Daniel Craig versions he got.
25:02
He became a little bit more, especially in the Casino Royale. That
25:07
was just such a That's why it was such a revolution that he showed his
25:10
armor. So all those first like twenty movies or fifteen movies, it was
25:14
just him being cool all the time and always winning and just nothing. He
25:17
never changed. But when you added a human element to it, he elevated
25:22
Bond to a place that he hadn't ever been elevated too, would you agree?
25:26
Oh, yeah, I do agree, And I think if you you
25:29
know, I am not so well versed in Jane Bond. I haven't seen
25:33
all the movies or anything, but my dad with a huge James Bond fan,
25:37
and I remember that that cool character that you're describing, like that was
25:41
really the entertainment hook that people were sort of interested in for that movie.
25:45
And I think just by the time, you know, the Daniel craiglans came
25:49
around, it's sort of like there's so much more competition in that space,
25:53
right, Like right, the storytelling just had to be a little bit different,
25:59
you know, to hit sort of different appeals in order for people to
26:03
have the same kind of like fervor for it, you know. Yeah,
26:06
I mean, well there's also I think when when Sean Connery was doing his
26:08
Bond there was an Iron Man or Thor or the Avengers in this is like
26:12
a scene amount of competition in the heroic yes space. Yeah, yeah,
26:17
I mean if you think about it's like fast and the serious, like every
26:21
like every action movie now has that sort of cool well not every action movie,
26:25
I guess, but there's a lot of action movies with like very cool
26:27
heroes, even John Wick, like we just mentioned, so there's so much
26:30
more competition. Yeah, John Wick. I mean I love to talk about
26:33
John because he's because I know him personally obviously, But yeah, me and
26:37
Kianu we hang all the time. No, John Wick I found very interesting
26:41
of a character because he is a character. Where as as as people looking
26:48
at stories or listening to stories or watching stories, we are attracted to people
26:51
who are the best at whatever they do. Rainman comes to mind, even
26:56
though Raymond and Dustin Hoffman's character had He's just a prodigy and and and and
27:03
Wick is a prodigy of violence. But his character, Like what I found
27:08
so wonderful about him is that everywhere he went, people are like hey John,
27:12
Hey John, like everyone just like they just talked about him. He
27:17
was like a legend before he walks in the room. I just started watching
27:19
because I'm in quarantine like the rest of us. I'm catching up with a
27:23
lot of TV that haven't watched. I just started The Blacklist and I had
27:27
never watched The Blacklist before. And James Spader's character has John Wick aspects to
27:33
him. I'm if you've ever watched that show, or not interesting. I've
27:36
seen a couple of episodes, but go on, tell me more about that,
27:38
because I think because because James Spader is, he's just all the bad
27:42
guys know who he is, like he walks up to him, like,
27:45
oh yeah, I remember that time in Paris. I remember that time.
27:47
And he has so much power and influence outside of himself that the world explains
27:55
that to us and makes his characters so And he's also extremely confident. He's
28:00
always fifteen steps ahead of the FBI. He's always fifteen steps ahead of everybody.
28:04
He's so good at what he does, and he's a bad guy.
28:08
Arguably he is not a villain, but he is not a good guy.
28:14
He does bad things and he has done bad things for twenty odd years.
28:17
So his character is so wonderfully rich in that way. Same thing with Hannibal,
28:22
Lecter. I mean, you're rooting for a cannibal, a serial killing
28:26
cannibal that is brilliant writing, is brilliant performance, it's brilliant direction, it's
28:32
it's it's a combination of all of that, because you know, without aunt
28:34
Anthony Hopkins, you know, I don't know if Hannibal pops off, if
28:38
the wrong actor in that space, and it's gone and without and without Jodie
28:42
Foster as you know, the other side, because you need the other side
28:48
of the coin, or also doesn't work, right, Yeah, well,
28:51
I mean Silence of the Lamps is one of my favorites and obviously like a
28:55
you know, classic iconic, iconic film. But I think something that you
28:59
just said is actually really good sort of tip trick to pass on to people,
29:03
which is, you know, don't forget about the reactions to your character,
29:07
because that can tell you so much about who the person is, not
29:10
just their actions coming into the scene, but how how are all the other
29:15
characters, how are the how's the world around that character treating them? Because
29:18
that says a lot, right, I mean, it makes it makes so
29:22
much sense. Yeah. Wick doesn't have to say a word. He never
29:25
says a word. He never says a word about how good he is.
29:27
Ever, he's a man of action, um, and everybody around him explains
29:33
to the audience, who the hell John? When you see the most powerful
29:37
drug lord or bad guy shake at the mention of the guy's name, you're
29:42
like, oh man, And then and then Kiano just you know, he's
29:45
Kiano, Like it's it's it's just it's the Kiano Renaissance as they call as
29:51
they call it now, it's just like he's will be right back after a
29:55
word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Everyone's finally coming back
30:03
to. Like cano's really cool. Yeah, yeah, no kidding, Like
30:07
that really is sort of like the new the new James Bond, right,
30:11
you know what I mean, He's so cool and like I you know,
30:15
I'm not saying that John Wick is a perfect movie, but I forgive it
30:18
anything that I would normally disagree with movie just because it's so much fun to
30:22
watch and he's so great. So yeah, and never underestimate fun, you
30:29
know, I mean, look, Fast and Furious Is. There's a pintment,
30:32
right, I mean, look the Fast and Furious Is. I've been
30:33
watching since the first one came out in the theater. And you know,
30:37
I mean the first one was Point Break. Let's just be honest. It
30:40
was Point Break. They stole Point Break. It it's exactly the same story.
30:44
They just put cars instead of server. It's literally a complete rip off.
30:48
I have no idea how they got away with that, but they did.
30:51
But you know what makes you know, what makes the first Fast and
30:53
the Furious so good though, and I will I will argue this point too,
30:57
is that it's all about family. So that's all they ever say.
31:03
I know, they really like build that into the story though in a way
31:07
that I'm like, I can get behind this. This means something to these
31:10
people, you know so and and that's honestly the thing that's held the whole
31:15
franchise together. Honestly, it's it's you know, they went from Car Car
31:18
Racers to basically James Bond. They basically become James Bond with Cars now um
31:25
and and now Hobbs and Shaw and all the other spinoffs. It's it's amazing
31:30
to see how how that movie has got. And I was talking to my
31:33
wife about it the other day and we're like, yeah, when you see
31:36
if we just know where you're you know what you're gonna get when you watch
31:38
A Fast Peers, it's very you just know the kind of story you're gonna
31:44
get, the kind of movie you're gonna get. Same thing with like The
31:47
Mission Impossibles, UM I was watching. I was watching a great video essay
31:52
in regards to Ethan Hunt. You know Tom Cruise's character and how many he
31:56
said seven, six of them, now six of them. I think he
31:59
was working on them. You think he was on six and he was working
32:01
on seven before they shut it down in Italy. Um, we don't really
32:06
know a lot about Ethan Hawk, Ethan um Hunt, like there's there's there's
32:12
no from after all these ceased movies. It's very little kind of really know
32:17
about him. It's interesting. Yeah, we know more about Wick. We
32:22
know more about Wick than we know about Ethan Hunt. That's true. That's
32:25
true. And I think that that, um, you know, it still
32:30
works for people. They do manage to sort of bring in just enough about
32:34
him when we need it in order to kind of like you know, build
32:37
in that emotion or the the emotional stakes of the story or whatever. You're
32:42
right, they don't go into and we don't need to know a ton about
32:45
We don't need to know how many brothers and sisters he has, or you
32:47
know what city he grew up in, or any of that. It's not
32:51
it's not about family. It's not about family. No, it's not about
32:54
family at all. Now you've been bumping around Hollywood for a little bit,
33:00
Um, can you explain a little bit about the power of the log line
33:04
and how important that is two screenwriters trying to get their their script scene,
33:08
because a lot of times the log line will pretty much be the first the
33:13
first entry point, and if the log line doesn't work, they're not going
33:15
to read the script. Is that fair to say, yeah, well yeah,
33:20
I think in a lot of cases yes, because, um, especially
33:22
if you're you know, sending a query letter, quarity email or whatever.
33:27
Um, what does this letter? What does this letter? You speak of
33:30
showing my age there? But no, But I think if you are querying
33:34
someone, you know, that log line is important because you're you're sort of
33:38
cold calling them. You're coming out of nowhere and saying, I have this
33:40
thing that I think you might be interested in, and you're basically giving,
33:45
hopefully giving them one sentence that will entice them to ask for the script.
33:47
Right, So in that way it can be very important. I don't want
33:51
to play so much emphasis on though, like if you if if you don't
33:54
have a good logline, you'll never make it in the industry because of course.
33:58
But but but it does help, right, Yes, it can.
34:00
It can be very very helpful, and I think it can be helpful in
34:02
a lot of or in a few different circumstances, one being while you're developing
34:07
your story, because I think a lot of times, you know, writers
34:12
get excited about an idea, but they don't fully think through the story before
34:15
sort of like jumping in, especially if you know, if they're like new
34:20
to screenwriting and they're like, ah, I can see the whole thing in
34:22
my head. I'm just going to start writing. And sometimes that works,
34:23
but sometimes that ends up with, you know, five hundred pages of we're
34:28
trying to figure out what the story is. Right. So, I think
34:30
a lotline can be really useful when you're developing your story idea because it forces
34:35
you to sort of think through the story and explain it in one sentence and
34:40
so it's a low time and energy investment for you to figure out, does
34:45
my story work? Do I have a story here? Do I have something
34:47
that can be translated into a screenplay? Right? And then, like you
34:52
were saying, for pitching or writing query letters, a lotline can be really
34:55
useful because if you can write a good version of that log line that it
35:00
really can entice someone to ask for the script, and it can you know,
35:04
open that that door to getting you read. And also if I found
35:08
that if you're not able to write what your story is about in two sentences
35:13
or three at the most, um, you're probably gonna have a difficult time
35:17
getting anyone not only to read it, but if you can't say it,
35:20
they're not going to probably get it within you know, that quick of a
35:22
thing and talking about high concept and so on, especially if you're going into
35:27
Hollywood, you need those kind of generalized like you know, a shark terror
35:31
arises, a shark terror arises a New England town during the summer whatever it
35:37
was, summer break or July fourth, and yeah, then three guys go
35:42
and try to kill it. I mean that's for to you though dinosaurs are
35:45
alive on an island. I mean it's right, well, I think,
35:49
and what is the what writing a log line when you're developing your idea,
35:52
What that forces you to do is to sort of set down your story in
35:58
concrete terms and make sure that you because you're writing a movie, right,
36:01
so you have to be able to write it in a way that we're going
36:04
to you know, it's externalized, it's dramatized. We're going to see it
36:07
play out visually in front of us. And I think a lot of times
36:12
the hardest stories to logline concisely are the ones that don't have that external,
36:19
concrete sort of element, right, So there's a lot of sort of you
36:22
know, circling like, well, it's about somebody who explores the trauma that
36:25
they experienced and then they have to you know, reconcile and decide if they
36:30
can move forward. And you're like, but what am I watching? I
36:32
don't know what that looks like on screen, And so the logline really does
36:37
force you to sort of go, Okay, here's the externalization, Like,
36:40
here's the dramatization of this story. So I'm describing it to you in concrete
36:46
terms because that's what I'm going to be putting on screen. You know.
36:50
Now, do you recommend outlining screen a story prior to screenwriting? I do.
36:57
I mean I'm a huge outliner. I think that I think you do
37:00
the same amount of work regardless of where in the process you do it.
37:05
But if you if you outline, I think it's it's less painful. So
37:10
when you go through that process, you know, So I know there are
37:15
people who are who are pansers, who really like to just sit down and
37:17
explore and discover on the page and all that stuff, and I think you'll
37:21
end up doing pansers and plotters. You'll end up doing the same amount of
37:24
work regardless. But um, I think it's it's at least for me,
37:30
it makes more sense to sort of do that heavy lifting upfront, think through
37:32
your choices before writing a hundred pages about them, and then that way,
37:37
it's it's a little bit easier and quicker to pivot. You know, if
37:40
you find that, oh, that direction is not going to work, I
37:43
can I can sort of restructure this or you know, rethink it or whatever.
37:46
I can do that in the outline versus once I've written all of my
37:51
darlings onto the page, and I'm loath to cut any of them. You
37:54
know. Well, that brings us to another topic that a lot of a
37:59
lot of writers get all bent out of shape about this. I think newbie
38:02
writers mostly a structure. They they feel that structure is going to hold me
38:07
back. I need to be I need to be free wielding. You know,
38:13
I don't need structure. If not that, you know, where it's
38:15
homogenizing the process. I need to do all this stuff. And I always
38:20
explain it as like, well, if you're going to build a house,
38:22
you need a foundation and need a frame. You can build a house however
38:27
you want, but at the end of the day, it still needs a
38:30
concrete slab, it still needs walls, it still needs a door in a
38:32
window. Now, you could put those wherever the hell you want, but
38:36
at the end of the day, you're gonna still need a roof. You
38:38
know. It could be a cool, weird roof, but it's gonna need
38:42
a roof. And that's what I found structure to be. So I find
38:45
it freeing to have structure because I can build my house and then I can
38:50
go and decorate however I want, or if I constructed however I want,
38:52
as opposed to just going there's a bunch of wood over there, there's some
38:58
nails over there, go at it right, right, throw something together.
39:01
Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think of structure as as really
39:05
being good storytelling, right, because structure is the way you put the story
39:10
together in order to engage the audience and keep them engaged and get them emotionally
39:15
invested, and then pay it off in a satisfying way. That's really what
39:19
you're doing by structuring your story, especially like you know the three acts,
39:23
right, we talk about three X structure a lot, and that's you're giving
39:28
us context and then you're escalating the conflict that you've set up, and then
39:31
you're you know, resolving that conflict, hopefully in a satisfying way. So
39:36
that's really all structure is is good storytelling. And I would you agree that
39:39
most scenes are actually all scenes should have a beginning middle, and it should
39:44
have to be acts is something it starts beginning and it ends and keeps everything
39:49
kind of moving along. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
39:58
and now back to the show. Yeah, I do agree with that,
40:02
although I think that if you look at if you look at movies that really
40:07
sort of like keep you on the edge of your seat as you get farther
40:12
into the movie, you need less of that first act in each scene,
40:16
right because we've already we're building on the context of the entire movie, So
40:22
you have less set up to establish. Not all is, but a lot
40:25
of times that happens. It's sort of like scene sort of feel like they
40:29
move faster towards the back end, you know, sure, because we already
40:31
know who the characters are, we already know the locations, we know the
40:34
stakes. All that kind of stuff so we can move things along. Coming
40:37
into the scene. We already know who wants what and like what they've been
40:39
trying to achieve the whole time, so there's less of that setup. So
40:44
yeah, so I wanted to kind of just since I have you here today
40:46
and there's a lot of stuff going on in the world. There's two shows.
40:52
I'm not sure if you've seen them, and I want to say,
40:53
I hope you've seen one of the two so we can discuss it, because
40:55
I think it's it's a wonderful opportunity to talk about story. Um O,
41:00
Mandalorian did you see Mandalorian? No? No? Happy? And and did
41:10
you happen to watch and then you might have not had a chance to you
41:13
yet Tiger King, I haven't, but I had heard so much about it,
41:17
and I was actually already familiar with Um who's who's the John guy?
41:22
Do you mean Joe Exotic? So I was. I was already familiar with
41:28
him and kind of the story of him. But I understand that that's not
41:30
what the entire shows about, right, No, it's it's it's honestly,
41:36
I don't know if it's the quarantine talking, but it is. It is
41:40
you know. I put the trailer on from my wife and wife was like,
41:43
no, we're not watching that. I'm like, okay, well I'm
41:45
gonna watch this because I have to watch this. And I started watching and
41:47
she would do something in the background, and slowly but surely she would when
41:51
something happened, She's like, so what happened there? So what's going on
41:53
there? It is such an amazing story. And I know it's a documentary.
41:57
Um, it's a documentary series, but the storytelling in that is it's
42:02
just brilliant. It's like when you think nothing crazier could happen, they leave
42:08
you with something else has to happen. Oh, and now there's a drug
42:13
lord, and now there's this, and now there's that, and you're just
42:16
like, how is this real? Like if I would have written that,
42:21
you would have written that, no one would have believed. It's just like,
42:23
God, this is come on, this this is crazy. Did you
42:28
happen to watch the series? Also a Netflix docu series called and I Won't
42:31
I won't swear on your show? But s with Kats. I heard about
42:36
it. I didn't watch it. I heard about it, I saw it.
42:38
I'm not it seems fascinating, but at the time, there's too many
42:42
other things in my queue. But yes, yes, this is what this
42:45
is exactly exactly why I haven't seen The Tiger King. Yeah, but but
42:49
I will say it sounds similar to what you're describing, and maybe Netflix is
42:52
just nailed kind of the formula for docu series. Oh yeah, well for
42:57
jocu series, and I'm gonna say for Cliffhangers, you know what I mean?
43:00
Because that show each episode and I can't remember how many episodes there were,
43:04
it was only like I want to say, maybe four or five something
43:07
like that, so it was it was a short series. But every episode,
43:12
like you thought you to where it was going, and then the episode
43:15
at the end you would be like, oh, that's what's happening now,
43:17
Oh my god, you know, and then you have to watch the next
43:21
episode because you're like, I have to see how like how that story turned
43:25
there. That's gonna go now. It was amazing. The Due Plus Brothers
43:29
did that, um that docuseries, Oh god, what was it? The
43:31
one about the cult leader in the in like the mountains of Utah, And
43:37
it was like in the seventies and they built like this, it was like
43:40
this guy had like seventy five rolls Roycees or something like that. Wonderful,
43:45
wonderful. Yeah, yeah, wild country, wild country, wild wild country.
43:50
Yes. Oh did you see that? I did. I'm actually from
43:53
Oregon and that took plates in Oregon, and so I was like, I
43:55
have to watch this and I thought that was I mean, it was an
43:59
amazing series, right. I also thought it was really interesting just if you're
44:02
thinking about like character and get it, you know, sort of how do
44:07
you get your audience on the side of your character. Nobody could have known
44:10
this, but coming into the into the series because I'm from Oregon, I
44:15
immediately was sort of on the side of the people who owned the land around
44:19
it. And I don't think that's where I was supposed to be. Like
44:21
they wanted you on the side of the raj Nishi's and being like, right,
44:23
you're just like free love, hippie type people who just want a place
44:28
to live and all this stuff. And I was like, no, that
44:29
seems wrong because those Oregonians they really need their land, you know. And
44:35
then it twists, and then a twist stars as the show goes on,
44:37
it's just twists and again, whether it's documentary or narrative story story, and
44:45
you know if it happened in real life, it's just how that story and
44:47
those and those documentarians are I mean amazing storytellers. They're they're just weaving the
44:52
tail so beautifully you you just have to stop everything you're doing and watch Tiger
44:58
Kids. It's arguably one of the argument one of the greater, greater things
45:01
that's happened in twenty twenty. And that's a low bard to jump off of
45:05
it, but it is. It is. It's God. I just I
45:10
just goes watching. I could I binged it. I just like I can't,
45:14
I can't believe this. We'll think about the timing of the release of
45:17
that, because I mean everyone is at home right now watching and then all
45:23
of a sudden you're like, what is this Tiger King thing? And all
45:25
of the no, I I want to have I want to have somebody on
45:30
the show where we can have a deep, deep dive conversation on the Tiger
45:34
King and the story elements of it and how it was. Oh then there's
45:37
like online I think it was Ed Norton and Dak Shepherd are fighting to play
45:39
Joe Exotic. Oh no, no, the um there's already casting involved for
45:45
the movie. Oh no, I mean every actor in Hollywood wants to play
45:47
all the parts, like hilarious, even the smallest you know, you know
45:52
Gate who is a m keeper zookeeper like they wanted because they all they were
45:59
all such a tap is the tapestry a tapestry of a tapestry of characters that
46:07
yeah, I'm just in awe in awe of it. But anyway, so
46:09
we have gone off the we went off a little bit, but I feel
46:14
that it was important to talk about those it's all story though, it's all
46:19
story. UM, I'm gonna ask you a few questions to ask all of
46:22
my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanted to break into the
46:27
business today? Um, I think the best advice anyone can give if you
46:31
want to be a screenwriter is to write things and shocking. I know,
46:37
I know, it's groundbreaking. I'm sure no one's ever said that before.
46:40
Um, but you know, I do think that that is one of the
46:45
things that that really can separate people who are going to manage to build a
46:51
career and those who aren't. I've you know, even before I started working
46:54
with writers on in sort of a professional capacity. I had a lot of
46:58
friends who are writers, right, and even seeing among them the ones who
47:02
sort of got really fixated on their one script that they thought was going to
47:07
be the thing that, you know, that built their career, and the
47:09
ones who wrote a script learned something from it, wrote another script, learns
47:15
you know what I mean, And so they sort of grew their skills at
47:19
a faster rate than the friends who had one like lottery ticket scripts, but
47:23
they were sure was going to be it. And so I think the best
47:27
advice really if you want to be a screenwriter is to write, and as
47:30
a as an addendum to that, to finish things, because I think you
47:32
learn more from finishing one script than starting ten and not finishing those ten.
47:40
Yes, so you know, sometimes you do have to like sort of cut
47:45
it if you're if you're realizing, Okay, I started the script, I
47:47
didn't think it through. It's not really going anywhere. But don't make that
47:52
your default, you know, have it. I think you really do learn
47:58
more from finishing a script and figuring out, like, Okay, what could
48:00
I have done differently? Why isn't this working as it like I thought it
48:04
would as I wanted it to? You know, can can you please let
48:07
everybody know the difference between a professional writer and a hobbyist, because my definition
48:15
of the hobbyist is the exactly what you just said, started ten scripts or
48:19
has been on one for five years. Um, and then there's and then
48:22
there's a professional writer who has twenty the ten scripts. Yeah, yeah,
48:28
totally no. I think. I think even if you haven't been been paid
48:31
for it yet, you're setting yourself up for good habits and more success if
48:37
you know how to finish, if you know how to complete a script and
48:40
learn something from it, right. Um. I also think the one thing
48:45
that I think really separates um professionals or people who become professionals is the ability
48:50
to rewrite, because that is a skill set all all its own. And
48:55
you know, there are a ton of people who can write a first draft
49:00
but who don't really know it's and it's not just about taking notes, although
49:02
that's part of it, but it's understanding what's not working and then understanding how
49:10
to go in and fix it. And I think that that's the whole skill
49:14
set that really doesn't get enough attention. You know, that would be the
49:17
script doctors of the world. Yeah, those people who are really able to
49:22
kind of like see the big picture and then also understand where to what changes
49:27
need to be made, because it's you know, I think a lot of
49:30
times writers want rewriting to effectively be like fixing some dialogue here and there,
49:36
and that's not usually That's not usually the case, and some people who are
49:39
very good at rewriting are able to see the big picture, understand what needs
49:44
you know, either what's not working or what somebody wants them to change about
49:47
it, right, and then knowing how to implement those changes on sort of
49:51
like a global level in the screenplay. Now, what is the lesson that
49:57
took you the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in life.
50:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to
50:07
the show. Oh, that's a good question. U. One lesson that
50:15
I am still trying to learn is to speak less and listen more. But
50:23
honestly, I think the lesson of like you, if you want to if
50:28
you want to write, you have to write. It's such a simple concept,
50:30
and it's it's one that I think still, you know, still come
50:34
back to and three of your favorite films of all time? Oh, gosh.
50:38
Well, since we've been in Quarantine the last couple of weeks, there's
50:42
been a lot of discussion of like best movies, movies worth watching, recommendable
50:47
movies, you know, things like that. I will say these I'm not
50:52
saying these are the best movie ever. There are movies that are special to
50:57
me. So just the other night we rewatched um So I Married a Nax
51:05
Murderer Michael Nancy Travis and Michael Myers, yes nineties. Yes, I'm not
51:12
saying it's the best movie ever made, but it has a it has a
51:15
place in my heart. I love that movie when I was younger, and
51:20
um, Michaels Mike Myers is just so funny, right, um So,
51:23
i'd say, you know, that's I'm going to put that on the Desert
51:27
Island movie movie list. I also just rewatched Blue Ruin, which I think
51:31
is phenomenal, and I would definitely say that's a great movie. I don't
51:36
care what anyone else is worth watching. And um, back to the Future
51:42
probably, oh yes, yes, back to the future. I'm waiting for
51:45
my daughters they get old enough to watch that. They don't they won't get
51:47
it just yet. But yeah, you know, I have. I have
51:52
fond memories of seeing that movie with my dad, So it's like definitely a
51:54
both a good movie and also just a you know, it's a nostalgic movie.
51:59
And I saw I'm old enough to see. I saw it in the
52:00
theater when I came out, and I watched it, and I was just
52:04
it was just when it came out, that was just like what like what
52:09
like what? There was a lot of that in the eighties, Like what
52:12
happened when I saw Diehard in the theater for the first time, I'm like,
52:15
what what? Like? What is going on? Yeah? I think
52:20
that I think Back to the Future was one of the first times I remember
52:22
being like sort of being startled by how good a movie was, you know
52:27
what I mean, being like, whoa, that was way better than I
52:30
thought it was going to be. You know, maybe that's a lot of
52:32
about the movies I was watching as a kid, But you know, see,
52:36
I didn't feel that when I went to see Howard the Duck at the
52:37
same time. It was not the same vibe. I didn't get. It
52:42
didn't hold it didn't hold up as well. Um, now, where can
52:45
people find you? And what you do? Let's see that's place to find
52:49
me is on my website. It's right Andco dot com. Um, there's
52:53
you know, all sorts of screenwriting articles and various resources on there. So
52:59
that's that's the place to track me down. Very cool, now, me,
53:02
thank you so much for being on the show. I really truly appreciate
53:05
it. It's been a pleasure talking to you. We'll have you back after
53:07
you watch Tiger. If you watch okay great, I want to thank know
53:14
me for coming on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the tribe today.
53:16
Thank you so much, Naiomi. If you want to get links to
53:19
anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at
53:22
Indie film Hustle dot com Ford Slash six eighty seven. If you have it
53:25
already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a
53:31
good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Guys.
53:35
Thank you again so much for listening to guys. As always, keep
53:37
that hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there, and
53:40
I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast
53:45
at Indie film Hustle dot com. That's I n d I E f I
53:49
l M hustl dot com,