Latest / Identity at the Center / #168 - 2022 Gartner IAM Summit - Brad Tumy with Indykite

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#168 - 2022 Gartner IAM Summit - Brad Tumy with Indykite · Identity at the Center

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You're listening to the identity at the center podcast.
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This is the show that talks about identity and access
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management and making sure you know who has access to what
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let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the
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center podcast I'm Jeff. And that's Jim.
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Hey Jem. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
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Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing good man.
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Here in the RSM podcast, rzm sponsored podcasting sweet.
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The sweet sweet. We've been here all week stop
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doing that. It's not well, I've only only
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can do it for a few more times. After, you know, I've had a
0:49
great couple of days here, learn so much.
0:53
Got to You old friends, make new friends.
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But I do want to Lodge a complaint.
0:59
Yeah. And not going to Lodge the same
1:02
complaint, which I normally do, which is too cold.
1:04
It is this free breakfast that you've provided me is not meet
1:07
my standards. No, it won't be that.
1:09
What? It's a real complaint bought.
1:12
Two bottles of water at the pool the other day or didn't you said
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and you know what, it costs, two bottles of water.
1:20
I'm going to say $15 T $30.00. How big are these bottles?
1:27
They're big but they mean what you're talking about.
1:29
Water doesn't matter how big they are.
1:32
I guess. Not absolutely crazy.
1:35
I don't think they can play that on inflation.
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Well that's a kiss for you. I mean everything here is just
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expensive. Yeah.
1:40
Usually I'd say it's by the end of the week I'm like I can't
1:43
wait to get out of here. I think.
1:45
If I don't get out of here ASAP I'm going to be broke.
1:50
Well, we will definitely get are getting out of here.
1:52
We're recording this as the kind of the last day of the Gartner
1:55
conference here. It's been a wild ride, lots of
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great guests. We've got another great one
2:00
here. We're going to be talking about,
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Brad to me. He's a Senior Solutions engineer
2:04
at Indy, kite. Welcome to the show.
2:06
Thank you. Thanks for having me, guys.
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Really pretty cool to listen to a lot.
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So it's pretty cool to be here and it is definitely a sweet
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sweet. Don't get him started.
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So, it's a sweet sweet. So Before we get too far along,
2:21
we have if you are a listener you will know that.
2:23
The first question we always ask our guests is, how did they get
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into the identity space? What's your identity origin
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story did, did you choose Identity or did it choose you?
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I'm going to say identity chose me.
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I think it's sort of a sort of my career as an application
2:37
developer and the a couple years into my career somebody that I
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worked with had left and sort of working for a new company and he
2:48
called me up and he said, Hey, I met this new company.
2:51
We're doing identity management and since that's what you and I
2:54
were working on at the at the last place, they want to talk to
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you and I thought I did it. I don't, what are you talking
3:02
about? I have no idea.
3:03
I had no idea what I didn't even, I had no idea what he was
3:05
talking about. We had worked on.
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We were, we had written some code to create.
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They were our sacred initials at the time and to me, it was just,
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we're just writing code to create our essay credentials and
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I really don't know what RC credentials are.
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So from there this was this was early 2000's from, they're just
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sort of jump at and they're going to the nuke that new
3:29
company and they were they have been a lot of federal
3:32
Contracting and at the time I think was you off program like
3:37
around the 863 and the M4 for that was coming out.
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So all the federal agencies were scrambling to to do you know to
3:49
Great. And so my role there was
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basically to do a bake off between the the major vendors at
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the time so that sort of parlayed that into a Consulting
4:01
career ended up working for Oracle.
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They're starting my own company company did that for 15 years
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and you know, just kind of focused a lot with like you
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know, one or two vendors. Just so I can really get, you
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know, kind of like the t-shaped expertise.
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You don't like a really Focus and then just, you know, more
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recently with indicate. So it's I guess the the long
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answer there is, its kind of stumbled into it and then it
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grabbed a hold of me right now and That's My Philosophy.
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I think most people at least some my conversations.
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I've been having is that generally identity.
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Pick them somehow they fell into it.
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Stumbled into it and the hooks have been deep and generally
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haven't, you know, gotten away from it.
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I want to talk about Indie kite in a That.
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But from a conference perspective how has the Gartner
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conference been for you? Any highlights any interesting
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stories conversations things like that that have taken place?
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Yeah, I would like to, I'd like to Second the the cost of water
5:02
here in the desert. The water is not cheap, that's
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running out. Yeah the conference has been
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good. It's been really good.
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I mean, this is this is the second or third conference.
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I've been to the last in the last year but I got to say it's
5:17
nice to be back in front of people and Not have a video
5:21
screen or a monitor in between US unless you don't get to a
5:25
session in time. Yes.
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The sessions have been really good.
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The the I think for me the Highlight, there's two
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highlights. The one is that the sessions
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themselves have affirmed, kind of the the vision that we're
5:42
working on it indicate and so it's good to hear that from from
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from, you know, from someone like Gartner and not just You
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know, some some random person said, hey yeah, you know did a
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project like that once too. So it's nice to have that that
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confirmation that we're on the right track.
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The other thing is just the and I know it's it's everybody says
6:04
it, but it's the networking, the conversations, you know, from
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identity management of such a small community.
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Everybody knows everybody. So you know, you're seeing old
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friends, you're seeing you're seeing people that you You know,
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maybe you've never met them in person before, but you've you've
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talked them or you've exchanged emails for 15 years, so it is
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this conversation? Yes, exactly, exactly.
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But the, it's the random conversations, you know, you're
6:35
standing in line for coffee and the person in front of you, just
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turns around and starts talking, you know.
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And they were, they they look at your badge and they're like, you
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know, I've never heard of your company before.
6:44
Tell me what you do and that that you go down into this
6:47
rabbit hole with them. And, you know, they start.
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You're comparing use cases. You're comparing situations or
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in a lot of cases that you don't even talk technology or identity
6:57
management. You just talk.
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You just, you know, where you from.
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Oh, cool, I've been there. I've never been there.
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You know, it's that, I think that's the best part.
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And so weird for me, some typically pretty introverted,
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you know, I spent a lot of time in my hotel room when I go to
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conferences just because, you know, the crowds tend to be a
7:15
little overwhelming. But with this, you know, I found
7:18
myself like, okay, you know what?
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I'm going to Grab my laptop, go find a table.
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I'll be I'll be near the crowd, you know, kind of like crowd
7:25
adjacent. Yeah, exactly.
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You know, then you see someone that you haven't seen in a
7:29
couple years and so it's been cool.
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I mean, so I would say those are the two, the two highlights.
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Lowlights really haven't been any, I mean, just, you know,
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joking about the cost of the water, you know, I was going to
7:42
save the charge for coffee in the hotel room and you know,
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it's coffee's been plentiful downstairs.
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So, Can't complain too much about that.
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That is a bummer because you know, that is my complaint to
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and it's a first-world complaint.
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Yeah, I'm you know, we're in this sweet.
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Thank you RSM again this week. The sweet, sweet sweet, and now
8:00
you got me doing it but they cap you it to Internet devices and
8:06
then charge you $15 right to connect another one.
8:09
It's a sweet and you have two devices.
8:12
What are the expectations there? It just doesn't make any sense
8:15
to me. Yeah.
8:15
Even if you're just one person in the room, you have you have
8:19
four or five. Without a doubt.
8:20
I got my phone to laptop, Etc. So yeah, Caesars get your act
8:24
together on my flight, my Delta flight coming here.
8:27
I could connect for four hours for five bucks.
8:32
No, but you're connecting in a chair in the sky race seems more
8:36
reasonable to pay, only five bucks for that?
8:38
Yeah no II. The point I was making is like
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if they can do that for five bucks, couldn't the sweet.
8:44
Sweet. Give us more than two
8:46
connections, and then not charge 15 bucks or the third.
8:50
I'm with you. I get it.
8:51
I mean another let's lot of such as far as that I will only work
8:54
for them. Yeah, so Brad you and I have
8:58
known each other for a long time.
9:01
What I'd like. 12, 15 years, nothing like that.
9:05
Really good to finally have you on the show, one of the things
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that I wanted to bring up was Jeff and I did an episode where
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we reached out to was a four or five people about a lot more,
9:18
only four or five people, you only 45 people responded.
9:21
We have some zoo of recording to answer this question.
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I'm going to pose it to you, which is, you know, the our
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Industries kind of changed names or is there.
9:31
Um, name change happening from Identity and access management
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to digital identity. My question to you is, what's
9:38
the difference between digital identity and identity and access
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management? Yeah, I think from our
9:45
perspective, digital identity is the the properties that make up
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or describe and Identity or which is just a representation
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of something that's out there in the world.
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Whether it's a human or non-human, a bought a machine, a
9:59
house or car, but whatever it is.
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Where I am. I are the processes or the
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services around that. What can you do with that
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identity? What can you do with this
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properties? How do you secure it?
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How do you use it? Leverage it for Access, anything
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that you can do around that to meet up falls under under.
10:20
I am? Yeah, I mean I think of the
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digital identity is like the fingerprint for a person or a
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thing and identity. And when I think of that, it's
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like, what's the credential information?
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What is the, you know the digital signature that makes up
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a face recognition or whatever kind of biometric were using
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sure. It's also probably the core
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identity attributes but beyond that the digital identity
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includes more, right? It's all the things that we want
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to collect and know about a person.
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So why privacy? Exists because they're going to
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collect all this information about you.
11:05
We're going to get data from maybe another source like a DMV.
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We're going to get information about what entities you belong
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to or Associated to or even going to get data about your
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shopping preferences or what you've bought in the past or
11:20
websites. You visited, we're going to
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store all that. And in talking to you about
11:25
Indie kite and kind of learning what your product is all about,
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kind of think that you guys are taking an approach to that.
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And so rather than trying to explain to for you, I'm just
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going to ask you to explain it sure.
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So at the core indicates based on the on the graph database
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technology. So instead of using ldap or like
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relational database or some other data store, we picked
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graph technology and it was very deliberate decision because of
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the capabilities, the graph provided The model that we've
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picked because of the experiences that we've had with
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implementations over the last 20 years, is essentially to create
12:09
to sort of each customer would get two or more graph databases.
12:15
The, the first one, the identity graph is that digital identity
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data that you were that you were describing.
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So the properties are the credentials that make up that,
12:26
that digital Identity or that make up that that identity,
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whereas Each customer that we work with each customer, each
12:36
organization would has their own business model and to try to fit
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that or bend that into the identity graph is impossible.
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And so it's which you're usually left with is either you're going
12:49
to massively warp, your schema and try to fit it into the
13:00
customers model. Or you're going to, you're going
13:02
to massively warp, the customers model to match your schema and
13:08
neither of those are ideal. So, to resolve that we have, the
13:12
second graph, which we call the knowledge graph.
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And because the graph database is, you can essentially, when
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you're modeling a graph database, you're using like, a
13:24
your, it's a real world model. So it's a one for one mapping
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between, what is the customers? Business model look like and
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what does that graph model look like?
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And so between, you have those two graphs, we import the data,
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we get the data into the graph, the customers data, and then we
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create a relationship between the digital Twins or the digital
13:45
identity from the identity graph to the knowledge graph.
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And then the week, the graph works is, it's all about
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traversing, the graph and finding the paths within the
13:56
graph. To what are you related to you?
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What are you connected to? And then using that That it's
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using that relationship to determine access or do you
14:07
determine entitlements or determine what can you do?
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And so that's really kind of the way we were seeing way we're
14:14
building. The, the I am services around
14:17
that things have always kind of wondered with graph databases is
14:22
why they're white. They weren't, you know,
14:25
wholeheartedly adopted more because I know in what I found
14:30
with developing And mostly on the customer side.
14:33
So, like big identity management use cases, is you have these
14:38
relationships that exist. So it's not only the identity
14:42
but you have relationship to an entity or relational data, and
14:47
if you put that into a sequel database, then the problem is
14:53
that when you have a massive amount of data, tons of
14:56
relationships, it crawls to a halt, right?
14:59
It gets really slow. Idea with the graph databases
15:03
that, you know, you you're not confined by doll that structure
15:07
but it has the power of building the relationships and fetching
15:11
the data quickly. So I always kind of wonder why I
15:15
didn't even Management Systems weren't already adopting the
15:18
graph. You guys are so do you know what
15:22
was holding that back and why you feel like you can overcome
15:26
those things? Yeah.
15:27
So I think it's a it's a resource issue.
15:31
So if you've spent the last 15, 20 years, building your
15:35
platform, building your foundation, and it's based on
15:38
ldap, the three of us. We've all worked in the
15:41
industry. We've spent the last 15 20
15:43
years. Convincing people to stop using
15:45
databases, get your passwords out of the database.
15:47
Put it into a know that. Well, are you going to go back
15:50
and say, hey, remember, we told you to use all that we want you
15:52
to now use a graph database. So plus we've invested, you
15:57
know, we have millions of lines of code that are all tied.
16:01
Pretty closely to out to ldap. So to go back and retrofit that
16:06
is I think it's a daunting daunting task.
16:10
That's why we decided to start basically start over.
16:14
You know, that mean there's a lot of Open Source libraries out
16:17
there that we could have used. There's, there's products that
16:19
we could have used and we could have just, you know, retrofitted
16:24
but it was cleaner and better for a lot of reasons to just,
16:29
let's start from, let's start from zero.
16:31
It's I mean if you're going to, if you're going to, if you're
16:33
gonna start a revolution, you gotta Gotta Throw it all out,
16:36
right? So that's that's you know,
16:38
that's why we that's what we basically started from those
16:41
kind of been like a tactical problem is that everybody was
16:43
starting where it said. Ol daps fast bad at
16:47
relationships, but we're going to use it because and then we
16:51
they built their product that way and it was hard to kind of
16:54
like a bandit that I moved to something better.
16:58
Yeah and I think that I don't want to knock all day.
17:01
I've spent the better part of my career working with ldap in it
17:05
was for the identity problems. I think ldap was better than a
17:09
database. It definitely served its purpose
17:14
for a long time but when we started hitting that wall with
17:16
access control and authorization and hitting the limit the limits
17:20
of our back and finding that. Okay, well we're going to, you
17:23
know, we're going to do an are back role-based access control
17:26
project and you know, oh no. You now have you have twice as
17:30
many roles what? We do, we do, it's just, it's a
17:34
recurring problem. And, you know, I don't think
17:37
that I think as an industry we've spent a lot of time on a
17:40
authentication, but I don't think we've spent much time on
17:42
authorization. And so, that's, you know, that's
17:44
kind of put a Line in the Sand and said, this is what this is
17:47
where we're, this is where we're going to make the mark and this
17:49
is where we're going to go after.
17:50
We're going to try to solve that.
17:52
So I think it's kind of a two prong issue, right?
17:56
So it's not about digital identity, which sounds pretty
18:00
clear like you guys. R /, you know, putting G of
18:03
their solution to manage the identity as well as the the
18:08
knowledge, all that, whatever that whatever data that business
18:12
has about the Identity or about other things that need
18:16
relationship to the identity. They've got you've got the real
18:19
identity piece down. Now, when I think of identity
18:22
and access management, I think of all the processes that are
18:25
associated with managing, I use are extracting that data so it's
18:30
kind of the the tool Cooling and the management of everything
18:34
that's in that digital fingerprint of a person, plus
18:39
all that knowledge about them. So does indicate also address
18:44
that piece? That's tough question.
18:50
Or I should say not at all, but it's a complex question.
18:54
We're building the tools to manage that the challenges with
19:01
the services that you need is around that identity is
19:07
determining what the identity is.
19:11
So if you're a human and you have a digital identity, you may
19:17
need to have a password. You may need to have a password
19:20
reset, you may need to have an impersonal verification, you may
19:24
need to have all the things that a human would need to do to in
19:32
the in the life cycle of their identity.
19:36
You can't apply those same Services, the same principles to
19:41
a non human identity. So building a set of tools and a
19:46
set of services to manage the lifecycle of the identity is
19:50
there's commonality between but it's not a one size fits all so
19:55
I guess that's that's a reason I said, the questions kind of toss
19:59
us because it's I've got imagine you guys to take like a Services
20:02
service-oriented approach to that, right?
20:04
So providing Our Sizzle. And if you're not going to force
20:09
structure in that Knowledge Graph, then you almost have to
20:15
have like a concept where people can develop their own endpoints
20:20
to manipulate the data. Of course, if you're going to
20:22
have an IM tool, you want to enforce certain principles
20:28
around that and I was thinking of and I can't even remember the
20:34
name, but there's a type of A point as available in the for
20:38
drunk, I DM product right where you could create your own
20:41
endpoints of some kind of wondering if that is something
20:46
that you guys have something similar.
20:49
And then I also wanted to bring up the whole for dark piece
20:51
because just knowing that the founder of your company lost the
20:56
Anderson was also, you know, one of the founders anyway of
21:01
forgerock. So certainly the right pedigree
21:05
there. Maybe kind of talked about that,
21:07
that endpoint thing and then talk a little bit about you
21:10
know, what, you know, loss A did to get the company started.
21:15
The sure. Sure.
21:16
So as far as the custom in point, I do with, I know what
21:21
you're talking about. I DM, you can create, you can
21:23
create with my JavaScript you can, you can create a custom
21:27
endpoint and you know, exposed that out as a service.
21:31
We don't have that that could be, could be something that we
21:35
Eventually would add in the value of something like that.
21:39
Is it essentially the availability of the data?
21:42
Yeah, I'm trying to I was trying to think through kind of the the
21:45
use case. I think we would get to a point
21:47
where that would be you would need to have We just can't think
21:55
of all the services that that a company or organization would
21:57
need around their data model. And so, what it makes sense to
22:02
have to be able to extend the platform and say, you know what,
22:07
create your own apis, create your own Services.
22:09
I think that makes makes sense. That's probably something that
22:12
we would eventually get to to needing.
22:14
I think it was, I think it was a couple years into until I DM
22:19
before they before they have that capability, right?
22:21
That was something that came down the road.
22:23
Yeah. The your second question was
22:30
more about kind of losses story of from the transition from Ford
22:35
Rock. So I think loss of the every
22:38
entrepreneur saw the opportunity saw were the market was going.
22:43
I mean, the vision came from a lot of experience working and
22:48
with graphs. And as I said earlier, you know,
22:52
the sort of the validation and that, you know, here at
22:56
Gartner's that that creating, that, that identity Fabric, or
23:01
creating that, that service layer, and being able to do more
23:07
with the identities and to do more with, you know, using using
23:12
graph. You know, I think to place his
23:16
credit, he had that that vision and then have the opportunity
23:19
and the means to execute on it. Yeah, I mean, it's like
23:22
everything we just talked about right there.
23:24
It's just seems like a solution that was so maybe not so
23:30
obvious. I don't want to like take away
23:32
any of the of the shine of what has been accomplished here.
23:34
But just to me it was like yeah but aren't those the best
23:38
products. These are the best.
23:39
No. Duh.
23:40
Why didn't we think of that, it right.
23:42
Well, it's exciting because you're, you know, you're in the
23:46
mix of it, you know, your heads down day-to-day and your you
23:52
kind of have to pop your head up there.
23:54
Once in a while and say, okay, remind me what the vision is,
23:56
okay? Okay, yes, yes, yes.
23:58
And then I got to how was I was up half the night last night,
24:02
just it was so exciting to apologize for keep going back to
24:08
this. But, you know, just the
24:11
validation, you know, the people I talked I spoke with yesterday
24:16
the other presentations, yesterday, just like this is
24:21
where the markets going, this is where it needs to go, you know?
24:24
This is where we need to. We need to.
24:28
We need to give organizations to tools to be able to build the
24:34
sort of building communities out of their customer data.
24:37
I mean, able to, when I say community, what I mean is being
24:40
able to create the relationships between the digital identities.
24:45
I mean, right now, you know, we're all of us are, you know,
24:48
our identities are in hundred, you know, and install hundreds
24:51
of different data stores. But none of those identities are
24:56
related across and none of the data's.
24:59
None of the identities are related within those data
25:02
stores. So, for example, to construct
25:04
the family or organization mean, you just have, you know, most
25:09
companies just have, you know, a million identities that are all
25:13
stand alone. Yeah, I mean, you know, would
25:17
why I really wanted to get you on the show and kind of talk
25:19
through this. Like I said, I've known you for
25:21
like 12 15 years. And you've been kind of a, you
25:27
know, between independent consultant and kind of running a
25:31
small Consulting business, but you could have easily just done
25:34
that for the rest of your career, right?
25:36
You're solving problems and very successful.
25:39
So there must have been something about indicate that
25:41
was just like, all right, I'm going to drop this other stuff
25:44
that I've been doing been successful.
25:46
I'd take a chance with something new and I you know, what is
25:51
that? What is it?
25:51
That, that drove you just make that decision.
25:54
Ian, it's to think so. Number one, it was it's the the
25:57
vision and being able to execute on that, you know, having spent
26:01
a lot of time in the in this industry, the problems that were
26:06
solving really resonated and I experienced those as a
26:09
implementer firsthand, the challenges with ldap, the
26:13
challenges with trying to create access policies that are complex
26:18
enough to solve the problems that the customers are the
26:22
organizations are having I mean, the number of times that my
26:26
response to a customer was okay, well just, you know, let's come
26:31
up with a role and will do, you know, we'll do you know, we'll
26:33
do role-based access control or tell me what the permission
26:36
needs to look like, but being able to be part of, I'm going
26:39
into the second part now is but to be able to be part of
26:43
something much bigger, it's, you know, as a independent
26:49
consultant it's a little bit of a lonely world.
26:53
You You come into an organization and your, you spent
26:57
some time there. But at the end of the day,
26:59
you're not really part of that organization.
27:01
So, I think to be part of a group of people that are
27:05
building an executing and at this stage, you know, being able
27:10
to influence some of that. So you know, they, you know,
27:14
they are like hey you worked an identity Brad.
27:16
What what do you think about this or what do you, you know,
27:18
and being able to say, okay, well I can look back and I know
27:22
that, you know, kind of Yuma ego a little bit.
27:25
They, you know, I helped make that decision or, you know, the
27:28
products going that direction because I, you know, I
27:31
contributed to that, it's the new monuments, right?
27:33
You're Building Bridges, but it was like the old days, right?
27:35
You could carve your initials into it now.
27:37
You're in a line of code somewhere.
27:38
Right. Exactly.
27:39
Exactly. Yeah.
27:40
It's a lot of fun, to be honest with you.
27:42
I mean, we could solve things been fun Consultants been good.
27:46
But it's, you know, it after 15-20 years, it kind of, you
27:50
know, you need something else to get you out of the bed in the
27:52
morning and this This is definitely it.
27:55
There were some, I was to say, you look great.
27:59
You look healthy. I'll thank you.
28:01
You look like you are just taking on the world.
28:04
Well, thanks. Thanks.
28:06
There was something that struck my eye and I know we're getting
28:09
short on time but I want to make sure we get to it because it's
28:11
it's a concept that's relatively new I believe and not something
28:15
a lot of people know it's called knowledge based access control.
28:18
So I think people are probably familiar with role-based access
28:21
controls but around for like 800 years it seems like and there's
28:25
a lot of failed. Our bag projects that are out
28:28
there in a lot of messes. We've heard things like
28:30
attribute bakes, attribute based access control a back policy
28:34
based access control. And now I've got this thing.
28:36
That you guys have coined as K back?
28:39
Is that something that I guess? Tell me about kbecque knowledge?
28:42
Based Access Control. What is it?
28:44
And sure, how are you leveraging that?
28:45
So, so the knowledge and the knowledge in knowledge-based
28:50
authentication or knowledge based Access Control comes from
28:54
the knowledge graph and the data that's on the knowledge graph,
28:58
what's fan what's amazing about graph database technology?
29:01
Is that it's not the just the data that the I did Identity or
29:07
the the thing that that digital identities related to you, it's
29:11
the relationship between those two with graph.
29:15
You can extend augment add to describe the relationship.
29:22
So you may be connected to your simple.
29:26
Simple example, you're connected to your car.
29:28
The label on that on. That line says Jim owns this
29:34
car. Okay, but now we can go back and
29:41
using artificial intelligence using machine learning.
29:45
We can, we can, we can capture things.
29:50
Like, how do you use that car? When do you use that car?
29:55
We can, we can take that data. The things, the things that
29:59
we're gaining, and we're collecting, or to collect about
30:02
the things that we're that are generated from the usage.
30:05
Of that feed that back into the relationship and extend the
30:11
metadata around that relationship and then use that
30:16
data for Access Control. It's interesting.
30:19
So it's not just a, it's not not, I don't want to knock our
30:23
back or a back but it's not it all you want.
30:27
Well, it's limited in that you you create a role and you have
30:32
access to X if you have this Roll.
30:35
But the, as the context changes, the roles.
30:39
Don't necessarily keep up with that short.
30:41
You can, you can log out, log back in, get a different role.
30:45
But in real time, the context may change in that your again,
30:52
using that car example, you're driving at 50 miles, an hour or
30:55
so, maybe the, maybe the, which you have access to needs to
30:59
change, like, you shouldn't be accessing your phone.
31:03
Or you need to now, that's something, you know, in the car
31:06
or the radio or whatever it is, but it's being able to feed that
31:10
data back in and that data is becoming knowledge because it's,
31:15
you know, it's it's it's getting pulled from the the usage
31:19
reading pulled from the, you know, the you know, machine on a
31:23
machine Flores house that data, the data that's being collected
31:27
and and being able to augment that relationship that way and
31:30
then being able to have access to that, what's really cool
31:33
about it, is that This point because we work in identity,
31:36
we've only talked about the security aspects of that.
31:39
Sure, we can create we can create access policies around
31:42
that data. What's really interesting with
31:46
this is that that data becomes a valuable tool for non security
31:53
organizations within a company. So if you have access, you know,
31:58
your work and your work in marketing or you work in
32:01
business development or you work in whatever and you have access.
32:04
That. So you have this, this this
32:07
related data and and the the augmented content around that or
32:11
the augmented metadata around that are there new services that
32:15
you would offer to these customers?
32:16
Because now you can see that they're related and how they're
32:18
using the service. Are there new products that you
32:21
would offer? Other new things that you could
32:23
recommend to them? You know, are there?
32:25
You know, I mean, kind of the world's the you're all this
32:29
data. What do you do with it, right?
32:30
It's like the sky's the limit and it sounds very much like
32:32
this Nirvana, that marketing Ting and ecomp teams of
32:37
progressive profiling, right? You're building up this
32:40
knowledge, database around, who's visiting?
32:42
What are they doing? What are they interacting with?
32:44
I mean, certainly privacy concerns come to mind, right?
32:47
I think there's a lot of concern and probably rightly so over,
32:51
you know, is the Facebook app. For example, listening to me,
32:54
you know, when I'm not using it right, that that sort of thing,
32:57
what sort, you know, the data being collected cetera, the
33:00
controls that are in place there for the user to be able to
33:04
manage Data. I would imagine it would be very
33:06
robust but they also need to be user-friendly.
33:08
Yeah, so we we are closely aligned with the web three
33:14
Mantra or the the web, three, two components.
33:18
I should say, the components of web, 30 decentralized, self
33:22
Sovereign, that's huge. You know, we're we're one of the
33:27
few organizations at this point that's building consent and at
33:30
the beginning. So that it's a really important
33:33
step in actually, it's An afterthought.
33:35
It it's usually shows. Notified.
33:40
Oh no, we have all this data analysis data would now we're
33:43
it's no longer a benefit to have a state and also liability to
33:46
have this data. So, you know, we, we want to
33:49
dress that up front so that if we are collecting the data, we
33:52
are using the data or maybe we're just referencing the data.
33:55
The user has the ability to say you know what going back to the
33:59
digital identity. Well these three properties or
34:03
you know these these It's, I'll share them with you, but only
34:07
for this week or only for this one time or only for whatever
34:11
and then being able to digitally sign the consent.
34:16
So that if somebody comes back later and says wait a second I
34:20
never I never consented to that you.
34:23
We have that that audit Trail and it's digitally signed to say
34:26
well here you did, you know you did sign that the terms of
34:32
whatever and then terms change through you sign this first?
34:34
Version. You didn't sign that version
34:36
having things like that because I think all of that ties into
34:39
the privacy and consent. And you know what you agreed,
34:43
what are the terms, you agreed to So, so going down a rat hole
34:49
with this knowledge base authentication, but I can see
34:52
some real world use cases, like you're in an e-commerce portal.
34:58
Maybe you buy the membership that gets you.
35:01
The free shipping stuff like that.
35:04
Like, use a joint at the log back out to now, get permission
35:08
to that, it just has to be added to the profile.
35:12
What you have access to is now to tap into, maybe just A
35:16
section or something like that. So, totally real world use cases
35:20
are bound by think. And I mean, that example, it's a
35:24
simple. As you create a relationship
35:26
from from that, from what person's digital identity to
35:29
that permission, or to that object or two that, whatever,
35:33
whatever it is. So you're not having to go back
35:36
and say, okay, can you request someone to add this role?
35:39
You're just the system is just creating that relationship and
35:42
you're, you know, you're moving, along an out.
35:44
Now that you have this new thing, That you're related to
35:47
okay. Well, what comes along with that
35:48
and being able to just just just roll with that, just just have a
35:52
system that is just flows with that.
35:54
I'm not going to bore to see where this goes because I think
35:57
obviously the I see the, I see the promise of it.
36:00
I'd like to see it in action and sort of like the real world.
36:03
Oh, yeah. And see how it works and works
36:04
through. But I know we're running out of
36:06
time and we want to let make make sure that you can get out
36:08
on the town and enjoy yourself. But before we go, we were kind
36:12
of talking before we hit the record button here.
36:14
And we got into the Concept of, you know, what would it take to
36:19
walk away from something? And for those who are familiar
36:22
with the other, the term is f you money.
36:26
I won't spell it out here but you can look it up and it's
36:28
inspired by our friend. Mike would burn.
36:31
And here's my question, as we wrap things up for today, what
36:34
is your F? Your, what is your number when
36:37
it comes to Fu money? Me a little walk away from
36:39
things. So, I want to be able to just
36:41
say the number and then, you know that you guys are gonna be,
36:43
like, here's the chat. Here's the Giants.
36:45
I'll check, check under your seat, better luck next time.
36:52
That's a tough question and I know you're just looking for the
36:55
short answer saw. Just I'm just going to say a
36:56
number but there's there's a lot of caveats to this say, my
37:00
number is somewhere between 10 and 20 million, 10, and 20
37:04
million. I could do that yourself.
37:06
That's kind of a cool. That's a much higher number than
37:08
I was impressed. So first of all, I want to give
37:11
you a little bit of background so Mike would burn is one of my
37:14
favorite people. Not only died imagery but in the
37:18
world I know he listens to the podcast.
37:20
So shout out Mike, you know. Yeah shout out of Mike and you
37:23
can send your check right to me but I wanted to tell the story
37:28
so I went to Maui and like 2012 and came back and was like I
37:34
want to move to Maui then Financial reality set in and got
37:38
back to life and never move to Maui.
37:41
I met Mike let's say 2015, 2016 time frame, And makes it I'm
37:47
going to visit. Maui is like Mike when you come
37:50
back you're going to say I want to move to Maui and then you
37:53
will never do it. Okay.
37:55
Yeah, right. So he goes to Maui because well
37:57
he's like I want to move to Maui.
38:00
Well those who know Mike would burn know that he actually did
38:03
actually follow through with it. Oh yeah and so that was I think
38:08
Mike is a smart guy many ways and obviously had his financing
38:13
set up in a way that he was able to actually make it happen.
38:17
So to me the fu money answer is not a firm dollar figure but
38:23
it's about how much annual expenses I had covered.
38:28
And that would need to have like a Year's worth of expenses.
38:32
In the bank, the annual expenses part, unfortunately goes up
38:36
every year, right? So this year, I'm not going to
38:40
put a number out there because it's not important, but it will
38:45
be more Sure. And the reason I say one year
38:48
because it's kind of like to me it's like not me saying F you do
38:53
the world, it's just being able to say all right well I'm going
38:56
to go do something else and you know might take me a year to do
39:01
it but you know today's my last day kind of kind of thing, not
39:06
that I actually ever see myself pulling that trigger but that
39:09
whole question I heard you got Mike I said I'm right front of
39:12
my boss right? So yeah.
39:15
Anyway That's I like that answer now.
39:18
I feel like it a lot of people here that question and you're
39:21
instantly. Thank, you know, in a what
39:24
number would it take for me to throw my laptop on the ground
39:27
and walk out? And, you know, do you like a
39:29
Jerry Maguire? But it's it's really about the
39:33
freedom to make the choices like what question people ask all the
39:37
time. This, what would you do if you
39:39
knew you couldn't fail and to me that those two are tied together
39:43
because this that's really what fu That's a really about.
39:47
It's what, what, what, what, what can I say, no to what?
39:51
Choices, you know, it's like I'm making, you know, I would
39:54
probably continue working. If I had, if I had the, you
39:57
know, my whatever that number is, you know, I would continue
40:01
working because I like what I do.
40:03
So wouldn't necessarily be about, you know, like know, tell
40:08
everyone to get off. No, it's I think it's, you know,
40:11
it's the, the crude way to be able to work on what You want to
40:16
work and pass on the things. You don't ya, well into not to
40:21
make this all about like would burn because this is all about
40:23
me. But, you know, Mike having
40:28
talked to Mike. I know that he makes choices,
40:33
you know, like, you know, you, I go and buy a car, or I go by buy
40:39
a house. And I go by this and I have, you
40:41
know, this is a reference from, like, but I have 15 streaming.
40:45
Services, you know, well, all of this costs money, but I'm making
40:48
those choices. You don't have to have a ton of
40:52
money to live the lifestyle you want to have you just have to
40:56
make the right choices to be able to do that and you know
41:00
like the lifestyle of the the choices that Mike and he also
41:04
has the ability to go in like someone describes their project
41:07
and was like, yeah, we're going to will throw money at you and
41:10
still be able to go and no, I'm not going to work.
41:13
I'm not going to spend my life force energy.
41:15
On that because I don't believe in what you're doing.
41:18
You're making a stupid decision. I'm just not doing that.
41:22
Yeah, well I think that the key is like, it's, it's at what
41:25
point in your life are you, are you comfortable saying no to
41:28
people and not having the fear of, you know, worst-case
41:32
scenario. So what I started out
41:33
Consulting, you know, the thing that my wife and I would say is
41:37
worst-case scenario. I just go get a job, you know,
41:40
and it's like, that's how I felt, that's how I got to
41:42
consult. He's like, you know what, I'm
41:43
gonna give it a shot, I can always go.
41:45
Back to, you know, being a civilian and not a consultant
41:49
and you know whatever it might be.
41:50
That was exactly what I thought. It was like those are better
41:52
time, I felt confident enough in my abilities, my network my
41:58
reputation. That if I went into this and
42:02
either I failed at it, because I wasn't good at it, or I didn't
42:06
like it, I could pivot and go back to what I knew that was
42:10
successful at. Yeah, and I think what you hit
42:12
on it. There's it's having the
42:14
confidence. To be able to do that.
42:17
Yeah. Well, let's bring it back to
42:19
Gartner because really, what's your number?
42:22
Good question. It's probably pretty high
42:25
because I like nice things. I am a consumer, certainly of a
42:31
bunch of different Services. I mean, I could I get by I'm
42:34
lower number. Probably do I want to know.
42:37
Could you clean your own house? I have got many things to do,
42:41
you know, I don't know. That's certainly one of my
42:43
guilty pleasures. It's like cleaning service.
42:45
But enough of my first world problems, I would say I'm
42:48
probably somewhere in the same area, 10 to 20 million.
42:51
Let's just say, because I feel like I like what I do I do this
42:55
podcast because I like to do it the work that I do and identity
42:58
is a consultant. And, you know, now, leading and
43:01
identity, practice and building it up, right?
43:02
You're building it with me. I like doing that.
43:05
It's fun for me. When it's no longer fun, or the,
43:10
you know, the cons outweigh the pros.
43:13
That's when I look for something else, right?
43:15
It's a As that I will work until I can't work anymore.
43:18
That's the way I look at it. You know what?
43:20
I like to do nothing. Yeah, probably great for what
43:23
I'm under a little while. Yeah.
43:24
And then I get bored and I was like, I need to do something,
43:27
right? So that's kind of how I look at
43:29
it, you know, there's, there's a number.
43:31
Let's just say, you know, x million, this point du du du
43:34
where we are from the economy, but that doesn't mean that I
43:37
stopped working. It's, I'm going to go do
43:38
something right. There's only so many streaming
43:40
services. You can watch right.
43:42
Maybe I'll create a new one. All right.
43:44
Well, I want to bring back to Gartner.
43:45
Oh Because one of the things that came up in this just why we
43:48
were asking The Catcher in the question here, was, it started
43:51
off with Mary mazzaglia, when she opened things up on the
43:54
opening keynote and it was she talked about the, the
43:59
generational divides and the people who are in the workforce
44:02
now, you know, younger folks versus the older folks.
44:06
And, you know, I think everyone in this room is probably more on
44:09
the ladder side and we didn't talk politics religion, Etc.
44:13
Didn't have public stands. As in the workplace and now you
44:18
know the the younger folks are expecting to have some sort of
44:22
position on things like that. And I think being able to have
44:25
that that discussion say yeah. Here's what I want to work on
44:28
and here's why that's inspiring, right?
44:32
No one wants to work on a project that they don't like
44:34
they don't want want to do. They don't want to work for a
44:37
team or a leader or a company that they don't support right.
44:41
Those sorts of things. So I think it's important to
44:43
even if it's not a number, I think the question is Our to
44:46
say, okay well, what is my intention here?
44:48
Am I doing what I want to be doing whether it's in the
44:50
identity field or anything else, really?
44:53
I think it's I think we've come kind of Full Circle.
44:55
We start with, you know, Gartner 9 a.m. on a Monday and here we
44:58
are, you know, local time five around 5 p.m. on the Wednesday.
45:02
Yeah yeah I think it's um I think it's interesting.
45:05
I've two young adult children and they're on the cusp of the
45:10
rest of the rest of their lives and their, my daughter just
45:13
finished her Nursing degree. So she started out Out and
45:15
professional world and to see the choices that they make and
45:20
what's important to them. I mean, it wasn't it's it's only
45:25
a few Generations separating, you know, my daughter from my
45:29
grandparents to where my grandparents were like, you go
45:33
to work. You do what you're told.
45:34
You spend 25 years there, you get your watch and that's it.
45:38
What, what questions do you have?
45:40
And I think that younger people today have choices.
45:44
There's not just One big company in town that you have to go work
45:48
for. So you better not, you know,
45:49
embarrass yourself. They've got the freedom to make
45:52
choices. They have freedom to make
45:54
mistakes. I don't necessarily agree with
45:56
living out your all your mistakes in life on social
45:59
media. But, you know, that's, that's,
46:01
that's, that's their world today.
46:04
You know, I think that the world, I think people are much
46:06
more health-conscious. They're much more
46:10
environmentally conscious and so, it's wouldn't be fair to
46:14
say, well, Well you can't bring yourself to work, you know, you
46:19
can't bring who you are. So you know I think that thought
46:23
when you can do that, that's when you found the place.
46:26
Yeah. If when you can be yourself and
46:28
I've been in positions where I don't feel like I can be myself
46:31
and others where I can and it makes the world of difference in
46:35
how happy you are, which then has a, you know, an impact on
46:38
the quality of the work and you're just general demeanor.
46:40
And you know, it sounds like you know, silly you know.
46:45
Don't die advice. But if you're not happy, go find
46:49
something that will make me happy.
46:51
All right. We've wax poetic and I know you
46:54
want. I know you're like it.
46:55
I'm like so I think it's kind of ironic because I have been
47:00
thinking about this last two days and it's kind of like,
47:03
okay. Our generation was attacking
47:06
this the wrong way, right? We're not supposed to talk about
47:09
these things, but imagine the scenario now where on one hand
47:14
were supposed to talk about About all these things that have
47:17
been taboo to talk about and on the other hand you're not
47:20
allowed to judge anybody based on their opinion.
47:22
So let's say one person's like got very far left.
47:27
Using somebody elses very far right fuse and they have to work
47:32
together, right? Their views on things, outside
47:34
of the workplace, really aren't relevant, right?
47:38
And you know whether or not you believe then, you know, the
47:43
environment should be perfect or you just think That or people
47:46
should be able to do whatever they want to do.
47:49
Whether you think that you should eat meat or you love,
47:53
you're a foodie and you love to eat like the most exotic foods.
47:57
Like this aren't really relevant discussions for the workplace,
48:01
right? And whether whatever you like to
48:04
do in your free time as kind of none of my business.
48:07
What you practice for a religion or how you like to spend your
48:12
weekends? Not my business and What what I
48:17
do on the weekends and what God I pray to our don't pray to,
48:21
it's really none of your business either.
48:22
So I get getting on. Yeah, I'm getting choked up
48:30
who's going with that. But I think it's we're living in
48:33
a world where it's really not appropriate to be judging
48:36
people. And, you know, the best way to
48:39
not judge was really not to engage in conversation.
48:43
I could become very polarized. Sure, well, I think that's
48:46
another form of identity, you know, it's the more of the, the
48:50
psychological, the, the Freud or the each version of identity.
48:56
It's and people People get wrapped up in.
49:02
This is my identity, this football team is my identity.
49:06
This this this car you know this type of the type of truck.
49:11
I drive is my identity, you know, and they get wrapped up in
49:14
that. And so they have to have to show
49:16
that because this is my identity, this is, you know, and
49:18
it's a, it's, it makes them feel better.
49:21
It makes them feel more secure in who they are.
49:23
And they, you know, work is, you know, I spent, I spent eight or
49:27
nine hours a day at work. I have to bring my And you know,
49:31
if you can put your if you can put your Pittsburgh Penguins
49:34
post-iraq, then I'm going to put a twice twice as big, Washington
49:38
Capitals poster up and you know, you start bringing this to work
49:42
and I think that it does. Some of that does unnecessarily
49:47
draw attention to those things. I think that, you know, like we
49:50
said earlier, you should be, people should free be free to be
49:54
themselves, but there are things that, you know, there's things
49:57
you bring along that you don't have to.
49:59
That I think sort of make it, you know, complicate the work
50:04
environment. I'm personally I just am like on
50:07
the I want to go to work and I don't have pictures on my on my
50:10
desk and, you know, let me do my job and then, you know, I'm
50:12
going to leave after I'm done working and I'm going to go with
50:15
my life and do the things that I like and the things that are my
50:18
identity and the things that are are fun fun to me, just be nice.
50:22
That's all I have to say. All right, let's wrap it up.
50:26
It was very philosophically. I think that was, that was fun.
50:29
We'll go ahead and leave it there for this week.
50:31
We will put a link to indicate in our show notes.
50:35
It's IND. Why kitv.com?
50:38
Thank you so much, Brad, finally, great to meet in person
50:41
versus emails and things like that.
50:43
If you've got questions about Unity kite, will have breads
50:46
LinkedIn in the show notes as well.
50:47
So reach out to him and get some information.
50:50
I think you've got an interesting story there,
50:51
anything I'm curious to see how it plays out.
50:53
I hope to hope to continue the conversation.
50:55
I hope you have any back you know, somewhere in the Near
50:59
future and I can give you an update and kind of tell you how
51:03
things are progressing. And if you'll have me, if I
51:08
wasn't too bad, then I'd love to come back and of course more
51:11
about it. The door is always open.
51:12
All right, we're going to leave it there for this week or weeks
51:15
for this episode. We were just kind of here at the
51:17
Gartner episodes are a gardener a conference.
51:19
I didn't the center.com is where you find us on the web, idac
51:22
podcast is where you find us on Twitter, tweet us questions,
51:26
connect with us on LinkedIn. We're always happy to take
51:28
comments feedback. I could cetera.
51:30
Whatever. Makes the most sense, get it to
51:32
us and we can take it from there.
51:34
So thanks everyone for listening.
51:37
And we'll talk with you all in the next one.
51:42
Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast.
51:45
If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and
51:47
visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.