Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 45 - Trauma, PTSD, and CPTSD - Part 3

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Episode 45 - Trauma, PTSD, and CPTSD - Part 3 · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Site for Sanity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Brendel Doss.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, geriatric psychology, trauma treatment, and child psychology.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Dr.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I am also a licensed clinical psychologist that works in private practice.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I specialize in assessing and treating attachment wounds from childhood and complex trauma.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: You do?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: How are you today, Dr.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Toss?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're giggly.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: We were a little giggly before we started because we're both going kind of banana.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Called delirium.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Called delirium.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Delirium.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm I'm tired.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I like to describe my um my mood as like the weather.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh partially sunny, mostly overcast, rain expected later.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'd be mostly overcast with definite rain expected later.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thunderclouds?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thunderclouds.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's how I would probably characterize my mood.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good way of putting it.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm more towards the thunderclouds this week today, too.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's just feeling just like.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're hurricane on over here.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're hurricane in, we're whatever the other.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: At least heavy rain, flood warnings.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, just it's just one of those weeks where Tuesday felt like a long week.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it really wasn't, but it was emotionally.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Even though you didn't have as maybe as much to do.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's well, it was a lot of little things.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: When I have a ton of little things to do, and each one of them are not big tasks, but they would take, they feel like they take a large amount of time.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's really very frustrating.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of overwhelming.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I feel really overwhelmed when I have that kind of to do.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: I tried to get a task done this morning, verifying a patient's benefits.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a very simple couldn't get it done.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Spent about 40 minutes on it.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's an example.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's irritating.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then I have like 17 of those.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I do not envy you.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a different problem mostly with my child who is experiencing uh a major peak in separation anxiety right now.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's brain development.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: She seems to be coming more aware that I could leave or that you know, she's thinking a lot of like monsters and snakes and like really specific fears that and this isn't super typical.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's kind of been thinking the separation's brand new.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: She usually gets you know anxious at bedtime and she can put herself to sleep pretty well.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been wild, it's been pretty bananas over at my house.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Penelope, she just doesn't want to sleep.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's she's really anxious, and so she's just having a hard time.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that means I'm having a hard time because also this coincides with her figuring out she can get right out of her bed.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: She's never in her life has she ever tried to get out of bed until like a couple of weeks ago.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so now I'm laying in bed anticipating her getting out of bed, and none of us are sleeping.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're not sleeping.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds very um unproductive.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, so yeah, giggly, delirious.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good way of putting it.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just the kind of like, eh, you know, I just I mean, I this I yeah.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, my week started off with my child breaking our dryer.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, yes.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I thoroughly check her pockets, check all the pockets, do the laundry in my household.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: One rock snuck in.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: One rock.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it really is.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a big one.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little rock snuck in and broke my dryer.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Small but mighty rock.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I was a small but mighty rock.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Kinda.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: I like rocks.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now we know where she gets it from.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I was allowed, and I did have this discussion with my own mother this week, that I was allowed to keep a stick collection, but I had to have only like it was a stick limit.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then it was only in one part of the garage.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is this like a typical child?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: My my child also brings home sticks, pine cones, rocks.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I'm not as good about keeping track of them.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they're everywhere.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're everywhere.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Everywhere.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I tried to.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: I have a we have a rule that the that the nature is not allowed inside the house.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good rule.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Why didn't I think about that rule?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then we also have a working rocks rule.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because working rocks?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: You have not heard of this?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: I've not told you this before.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Listen, so we were one day, this was a long time ago.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, a year or so ago, we were going to the library as a family.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And on the way to the library, there are these really cool looking rocks that were clearly like these are store-bought rocks, right?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: These are not like wild rocks.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: They're not like these are like landscaping, right?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: So my daughter was like, ooh, rocks.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I know, but hey, listen, these rocks have a job.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: They are working rocks.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and my daughter has two parents that both work for a living, and she understands, especially because I work too much, as we all know.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: You do.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she's very uh aware of the concept of working and that working is important and working helps feed families, all these things.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: So these rocks have a job, and their job is to be under people's feet.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if you take the rock away, it can't do its job.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that has worked for a long time.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Up until recently.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then she's I said, these rocks are from the playground that you go to school at.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're not on the playground, eventually there'll be no rocks on the playground.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: But this is what she's she's getting real savvy.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, but these are a gift to you.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, she knows.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: She knows what she knows what she's doing.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: She does.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, children, man, weeks, lives, hard.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: CPTSD.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard of it.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in back.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So last last time, the part one, we uh technically maybe part two, we talked about some treatment for CPTSD.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: We did.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we didn't get all the way through because it's there's a lot.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I we wanted to finish today.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: We started in the last video with talking about key developmental arrests and CPTSD.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we talked about managing emotional flashbacks, and we talked about shrinking the inner critic.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: We started talking about somatic treatment.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we can continue talking, you know, finish that.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's some pieces about grieving and relational healing and signs of recovery that we'll get into today.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: We zooming way out, we started really with the conversation of PTSD versus CPTSD.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then seguing into CPSD and the treatment and what that looks like, especially as it relates to your practice.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's just one of your main areas.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And now to kind of bring it home and wrap this all up, this is about what the somatic experience would look like in the room and that relational healing component, which is so so important.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: I would say across the board for most treatment modalities related to this.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I feel like at my heart, I'm a relational therapist.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually what I what I call myself.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so even really before I started really honing my knowledge and skills in trauma treatment, I was I started out as someone who was really interested in psychoanalytic, but really more modern relational therapy and attachment theory has always been super important to me.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when I introduce myself to new patients or new potential patients, that's one of my things that I talk about is that I'm a relationally oriented therapist and that I don't I believe that there cannot be much functional change that can occur outside of a therapeutic relationship, which is warm, very Rogerian in nature on its on its surface.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you take a more client-centered approach.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and for me, relational therapist, in addition to that, because I do feel I do strongly believe in like patient-led treatment, um, I tend to think about the therapeutic relationship as a microcosm of what happens outside of treatment.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I typically do use the therapeutic relationship to help point out relational patterns that are happening that are probably relevant to outside the treatment room.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I use like my emotional experience in the room.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm incredibly open about talking about the relationship between me and my patient, like as it pertains to treatment.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do a lot of mentalization-based therapy, really helping them like ponder my perspective because when patients do have intense anxiety or trauma or you know, depression, thinking can, you know, the way we think about others can really be super distorted.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Many of my patients think I'm judging them or criticizing them or I'm angry with them.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And what that means to that person is very scary, but you know, based on their history.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we work through a lot of that actually in the room.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely and then work on translating those skills outside the therapy room.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think I do a version of very similarly what you talk about, in that the relationship, I will routinely say, you know, what were you concerned about when I mentioned this?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: What was your experience of my feedback or my communication on this?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or a big thing that I also do is like, you know, I I think I told a patient last night that, you know, hearing that makes me very angry.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm experiencing a lot of anger at so-and-so on your behalf, even hearing about it.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not you.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: So how are you experiencing this?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh definitely, me too.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Same kind of stuff.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I I think that kind of empathy, like when you're being really real, is invalidating, is super important.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for people with CPTSD who have a lot of fear of judgment, of rejection, abandonment, and betrayal.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, doing that relational healing is really important.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you can build a safe enough relationship with a therapist, you can really earn security in a relationship.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: You can really learn how to translate those skills outside.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So relational healing is really important because for CPTSD, you grew up in a home where there was not a safe person to bond to.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you did not really learn healthy relational skills.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: So CPTSD really is an attachment issue at heart.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone with CPTSD has an I mean everyone has an insecure attachment style, or at the really extreme ends, an attachment disorder.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's a lot of relational issues that go along with CPTSD.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: There really are.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, I I again kind of tend to use my own modality as a relational therapist to heal some of that stuff in the moment and to deal with some of that stuff in the moment.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of social anxiety to work through for people with CPTSD.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Again, because of the extreme fear of rejection.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, people can develop social anxiety where they're really scared to perform in public or go out because of fear of um embarrassing themselves and being rejected.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, conflict, right?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Conflict and the fear of abandonment with that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: If they show up in any way that's not a managed version.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: The fear, yeah, there's many issues around conflict, and that's a big one because anger and conflict was so scary and threatening for many of us with CPTSD that getting into an argument or a fight or having an angry feeling, or vice versa, someone being angry at us can be quite triggering and overwhelming.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there's a tendency to have a hard time during conflict to take other people's perspectives so we get really stuck in our own, yeah, which can escalate conflict.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think there's a you in my opinion, and I think in a lot of CPTSD researchers' opinions, you really can't heal trauma fully without the relational peace.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I don't know, I don't know of a modality that I would look at that you don't have that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Either through therapy or through being able to find a safe enough person with which to be able to build some of this security with to be safe enough with them, to be able to show enough of yourself to them and to kind of receive this mutual support and care.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um can be done inside of therapy and outside of therapy, but it's super important.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then there's like this this newer concept, or it's a little newer to me, reparenting.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think of it?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of controversial, actually.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is it?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think actually just the idea of inner children, inner child, and reparenting in general is sort of a controversial topic.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Some people really don't like talking about people in that way in parts or having inner children.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I just view that as another element, like we've talked about the critic before, as it relates to trauma and CPTSD, is that in terms of reparenting, you know, learning within yourself and learning with your provider how to reparent yourself or doing that with your clinician.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think that can be incredibly healing.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I guess I'm surprised I have not.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're surprised that people would even question it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I there's there's quite a lot of people who question it.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: That this just the idea that you even have like inner children inside.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can feel really hokey for some.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: It can feel condescending for some.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Condescending.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe condescending is not the right word, but like some adults do not want to think about having inner children.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like it's um it's super therapist-y.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I it it is, but like I've had patients respond in lots of different ways to that notion.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm, you know, it's patients that have said, you know, ugh, I don't I don't talk about me that way, I don't like that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And some clinicians who are like actually kind of opposed to the idea.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the the idea though is that like if if you have CPTSD and you grew up with trauma in some form or fashion, you kind of have different parts and you inner children and internal family systems are these wounded parts that are usually exiled.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not super aware of them.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they hold all the trauma memories and the trauma traumatic feelings.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the idea is to really recognize those inner, more child parts, the developmentally arrested parts, the more vulnerable parts, and learn to reparent them.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um right, give them the safety and security you did not experience.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, the self-compassion, the love, the care, the un just sort of like um like positive regard, like unlimited positive regard.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because as when you're an adult and you have CPTSD, you can't get that from someone else.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, that level of care that a young child deserved, sure, you can't get it in an adult relationship.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's not actually very reasonable.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it it and those that act in childlike ways in relationships, they're trying to get that unconditional love and acceptance that they deserved, but you you can't.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how adult relationships work.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta give it to yourself.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Not that you can't get love or validation and validation and comfort and you know, positive regard from your partners or friends or whatever, but that that neediness that you feel when you are a trauma survivor is intense.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about giving yourself that self-compassion and love and care.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then also, yeah, like you said, that self-protection.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: That self-protection.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: I guess one way I have found that patients are more open to like, I think I use different language because of the different modalities we operate in, but I've often found I've had like had conversations with patients about well, where you're a really caring, compassionate, loving person.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we both just now said that your mother was not caring towards you.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you think you learned this?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I had had some amazing conversations.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, well, I actually learned it from reading books, or I learned it from watching this one movie, or like they can really identify, or maybe they've had this one teacher or another kind of mentor, or my uncle so-and-so, was really really loving to me.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's like an access way in to recognize oh, I am this person, I feel good about that.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't get that from them.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: How do I like it's sort of a pathway in to sort of recognize?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good, that's a great idea, actually.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I hadn't really thought of that.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're welcome.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're such great communities.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: I never thought I would like give you a you know a tipsy-doodle about CPTSD.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know everything, even though I like to think I do, to be honest.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, you don't.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: You think you know nothing.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: It flips.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I think I know everything.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And some of my one of my patients the other day, they were like, You're kind of a know-it-all.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know what?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Touche.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And also, yes, tell me how to dare you see me all and I'll I'll back off a little bit.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that was like the whole thing.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yes, self-protection.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: So many of us with CPTSD grew up with with a severe lack of protection, really.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we have to learn to set limits and boundaries and be assertive for ourselves.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually one of the main reasons why we feel so anxious all the time.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because we can't actually like advocate for ourselves in ways that are healthy.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so the more that you get angry and you set boundaries and you say no, and you like really set even internal limits and boundaries, yes, which are the most effective.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: You start to feel a lot less anxious.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So anger, anger can be helpful.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Anger can be I know you yeah.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've never said it wasn't.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've just said that it's hard to access, but it's not no longer hard for me to access.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm feeling angry a lot these days.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not laughing because it's funny.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not laughing because it's funny.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: I need everyone watching to know I'm not laughing because it's funny.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you laughing?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's just well, why am I laughing?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, why are you laughing, Dr.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Duss?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's sweet and wonderful.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sweet and wonderful.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that you're recognizing the anger is a tool that you can use.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I knew it in my head.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've had that knowledge for a long time, but it's been quite frustrating because I can't feel it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to feel anger, and then it's hard to actually sit with it and then be like, oh, this anger is telling me I'm not okay with this thing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need to do about that?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's just an unnatural process for me.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, less comfortable and familiar.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let well, less familiar, like four.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of foreign.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uncomfortable because once then I feel angry and I set a bound or I want to, I feel too scared to actually follow through with it.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my that's that's my next step.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta do the thing.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Day by day.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I love that show growing up.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're going a little nuts over here.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Stay on topic.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Delirious relational healing.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Reparenting, though.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Reparenting.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about this often with my patients.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I like to sort of function as a pseudo-parent in ways when I can.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So comfort, validation, advocating for self-protection, advocating for assertiveness and protection.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to act in ways that I can that sort of um provides the patient with what they were missing in childhood.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking about that often within the limitations of the therapeutic relationship, obviously.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: How I provide it, I think, is showing them how I view them very authentically and organically.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Which can be very uncomfortable.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I always kind of tell folks, this is how you don't have to agree with me, but this is how I view you.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: You don't you don't have to see it the same way, you don't have to believe me, but I need you to know I always I have this thing I say.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: It might feel kind of canned.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't feel canned to me when I say it.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna pretend.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I need you to know when I put my head down on my pillow tonight, that I'm thinking that you're great.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: That I think that you're a wonderful person that has a lot to offer, and that is what I'm gonna think when I'm putting my head on my pillow tonight.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if I heard that as a therapy patient, I would simultaneously feel like it was super sweet, and also that I want you to go as far away from me as possible.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, which is really funny.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's and like so consistent with like complex trauma, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like yes and no.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that is my relationship with you, and I love you for it.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you're I like you, I like you say those things to your patients.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's sweet.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so relational healing is really important is is super, super important.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And both of us are like, it sounds like fundamentally incredibly relational um with our patients.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so somatic, let's kind of finish up somatic.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you want to tell everyone what somatic is?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think somatic center of expression has a lot of research in how it relates to CPTSD and trauma.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, the body is aware and can operate and connect.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: I always tell people in terms of like psychoeducation as it relates to emotion, your body is gonna feel your feelings before your brain is gonna recognize them.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the more you can tune into your body and recognize what is happening for it, the sooner you can thoughtfully consider, label your emotion, and then decide how you want to respond to it because spoiler alert and shocker, you don't have to react to everything you feel all the time.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think that what you just described is is real important.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And for those of us with CPTSD, it's very hard to recognize sensations in the body.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: To connect the emotional name to the experience.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's that's actually probably where I started more recently on my trauma healing journey.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, was my my current therapist is a she does um somatic experience.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she really helped me get into my body.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So somatic experiencing is a really helpful treatment for those with trauma who are particularly out of touch with their body.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: They really highlight, like help you really feel the sensations in your body, and then figure out energetically what you need to do with those sensations in your body.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: By energetically, what are you meaning?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for instance, you know, when I'm angry and I need an outlet for my anger, she has taught me uh wall pushes, push-ups, um, like really vigorous heavy work activity, like that kind of stuff is really useful to get some of that energy out of your body.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, like maybe boxing could be another example too.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, EMDR is another really popular therapy treatment for people with trauma, and there's a heavy somatic component.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're both trained in EMDR.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Both trained in EMDR.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Practice with it.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I I'll give you$5 if you can say it right without the acronym quick.
• 23:10
  unknown: Darn it.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody owes me$5.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry,$5, not$10.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can't do it.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Does that mean I'm hard?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Does that mean I don't have to pay for coffee and microsat earlier?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just do that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yay! Let's just do that.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I was already gonna pay for it.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So but I was gonna pay you back for it.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's just call it even.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yay.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: EMDR.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it it really helps the way that people can access segregated trauma memories, like memories they don't rem like actually have remembered.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's it's crazy.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: But when you find a sensation in your body and an EMDR, you're asked to float back to an early memory.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's super bizarre what comes up.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: It is like uncannily important, and it all kind of comes from that sensation.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so and that that's why in the trauma literature they say, you know, like emotions are stored in your body.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or the body keeps score.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Body keeps the score.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like actually the emotions are in your body, but the sensations sort of store you know, emotion and memory from the past in like a weird kind of way.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So EMDR can be great for trauma um depending on how stable you are in like everyday life.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's still there's some there's some precursors and qualifiers for EMDR that that are important to talk about if you do to pursue that.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: I have had patients come to me and it's like, oh, I want to do EMDR tomorrow.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yeah, we're not gonna do that yet.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna start there.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's get to know each other and then let's see if you're prepared and ready for that.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I always tell folks, and I'll I'll be curious about your opinion on this.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: EMDR, in my opinion, today at this time of the state, is the closest we have to brain surgery and therapy.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Interest that's a hot take.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard that.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's like revolutionary.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is it?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's just very intense.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is really intense.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: It can be really intense.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And there's like like certain things, for example, from my training, you cannot be on a benzodiazepine.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you're like, you know, receive this treatment.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: You also can't be going through a significant life event, like a job change, like necessarily like really it's it can be re it can be really destabilizing.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: You have to destabilize what's going on in your environment.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: To be able to tolerate the experience.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I've done EMDR too.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I did a whole, you know, I've done like several trials of EMDR.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: My first was like a six-month, like weekly EMDR intensive and some really significant stuff.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is really the big really marks the beginning of my trauma healing journey in an emotional somatic way.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: I had always done intellectually focused therapy, but EMDR opened, started opening me up, and then I did the somatic experiencing.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there, I've, you know, I've said a lot of times on the show, treatment for CPTSD is multimodal.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a, you know, this is why we're going over these different kinds of treatment because all of them are really necessary at some point.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Took the words right out of my mouth.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: It depends on where you are with your trauma, what you've already worked on, yeah.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: What you still have to address depends on what I think modality would be best for you.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you can do these things simultaneously, sometimes you do one at a time.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like it really, and that's you know, I tell people to start with a good home-based, like talk therapist who knows trauma, who can then, you know, maybe do some of this with you, but then know where to refer you and knows where you are in your treatment journey.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so, and the only other thing I wanted to mention about somatic treatment, because of the concept of pretty frequent armoring and adrenalization, there's a lot of pain.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so on a regular basis, it's pretty important for people, in particular, who tend to hold a lot of their emotion in their body, and it is you do have chronic pain, is to pretty regularly attend yoga.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's it's actually one of the most helpful treatments for trauma.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then uh stretching and progressive muscle relaxation.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um those are ones that I recommend for people often.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I've incorporated progressive muscle relaxation, which involves um you're it can be a therapist, but you can also do it on your own once you're trained, I think, as a as a patient.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um kind of doing a body scan and starting either the foot or the head and scanning where there's tension and then tightening different groups of your muscle until just to the point of mild disdis comfort, and then releasing it and noticing that sensation.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and moving through the body.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there are many free apps you can download that have um guided muscle relaxation.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: So insight timer is one of my favorite.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great one.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um not we're not not an advertisement.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe one day.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: We would love to.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, and then let's talk briefly about grieving and then and then wrap up.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: But um grief work is very important with CPTSD.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of loss for those of us who experienced trauma, neglect, abuse, um, a loss of self-esteem.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Many of us struggle real hard with self-esteem.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's a loss, that's sad.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Loss of appropriate parental care, loss of opportunities.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's just a lot of a lot of sadness inherent in that.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of anger for not getting what you deserved.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: But when we are children, we cannot safely experience those emotions because we have to survive.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we build up all of these defense mechanisms, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Around these feelings so we can just function.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite important to get to the sadness and anger, which is why I, you know, I've been crying for two years, um, you know, but I've been crying for two not nonstop.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: She's taking breaks, and yes, she knows.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: But now I'm getting into the anger.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I conceptualize this period of my life and healing to like an angry grieving.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like finally feeling it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really intense.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's about all the things happening to me now and all the things that did happen to me.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um what Taylor Swift era does that latch on to?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, um, what's the one with all the fire?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: The is it red?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, the popular, real popular um one about the exes.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Blank space.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Blank space.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: She's ragey, as she should be, for being pegged, you know, for just being like a misunderstood.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, just you know, all the dating.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, leave her alone.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Leave her alone.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's what that song's about, right?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, oh, you want to tell me I date too many men?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Here's another spot for another one.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you go blow yourself up?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah, that's an appropriate Taylor Swift song for me currently.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, this feeling the anger and feeling the sadness is important.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: The way that I got into my sadness is somatic mindfulness, somatic meditation.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I've mentioned that on the show before, but I was taught by a somatic provider to pay attention.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: This was a different one than my current.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: I did like this intensive somatic thing in California.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: She's done a lot of intensive things.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was real nuts at the beginning of my treatment in terms of like motivated, very obsessive, I would call it anxious, perfectionistic.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I did a lot too much.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but she taught me to really hyper focus on each sensation in my body to follow that sensation wherever it went.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And again, crazily enough, certain memories start popping up when I start noticing these sensations, and then I just ball my eyes out.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of crazy, but it works.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how I got to the anger.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just got I feel like you're an archaeologist and you're excavating like something.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you guys can try that at home.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you don't have to pay the thousands of dollars I did for someone, or you could go to a provider to advise you we're not giving therapy advice because we're not your therapist, as the disclaimer says.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Delirious, delirium.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's that's you know, that's those are all of the ways that we tend to think about CPTSD healing.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And again, these are our perspectives.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for CHBST, I think today I'm taking away, like I think we joked about this episode at the beginning about how it was gonna be like a shorter episode.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Jokes on you.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Ha ha ha.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't joke on me.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, 15 minutes my foot.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, go.
• 31:38
  unknown: Go.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much more we could talk about this, and I would not be surprised if we revisit this topic at a later date because like a parfait, there's so many layers to this and to healing and to trauma recovery.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I really enjoyed this episode and like kind of closing out this chapter with you.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: I did too.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Looking forward to it again.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Did I just snort on camera?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: You absolutely did.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we work in or have worked for in the past.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.