Latest / The HighDive / Ep. 16 | In The Beginning | Why Genesis Matters

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Ep. 16 | In The Beginning | Why Genesis Matters · The HighDive

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Question for you.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: So growing up, dad was always doing like side projects, right?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I now look back, he was like side hustling just to keep shoes on our feet, but which I'm grateful for.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of decks.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And ceiling uh a lot of ceiling fans.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of that kind of stuff.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was responsible for putting the blades together.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you did it so it was my job.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Very good.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Looking back though, I just know the the intention and the care that was always spent on like the post holes, the the equivalent to what we'd be the foundation, making sure that everything's secure before we built up the deck.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it just causes me to think about why foundations or footers are so important.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it it has been said, I've said it, you've said it, that Genesis 1 through 11 are like foundational for understanding the rest of scripture.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that the case?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so Genesis 1 through 11 is kind of like the preface of the Bible.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and those chapters establish the major theme.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: It gives us the um the call, the the situation around which the whole story is trying to resolve, like Genesis 3, the fall sin in the world.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: It gives us the vocabulary that we need to understand and know that's going to be playing out through the rest of the scripture.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: It gives us all of the main underlying characters, God, humans, this sort of Satan, this deceiver.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it gives us the genealogies, the family groups.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: It gives us all of the raw materials around which everything else is going to be structured.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you get to chapter 12 and you start looking at Abraham, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all the way through, they are essentially replaying chapters 1 through 11 at some rhythmic pieces.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you understand chapters 1 to 11, there's a lot of things that happen in the rest of the Old Testament that just sort of get unlocked.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember kind of a key, maybe it's a key key.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: It is a key.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember there were this is this is this is what happened to me personally.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I there's lots of times you'll read through scripture, you'll get to a passage in the old test, you're like, I don't understand this.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you just go, I'm reading it, but I'm going to flip the page because this doesn't make I don't see the this does seem like it's just here for some reason.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: You'll get to some psalms, you'll get some of the Torah and the prophets, and you'll get this because they're they're they're they're playing around with vocabulary and images and information that didn't make sense to me.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And when I begin to really dive through and just slow process and try to learn chapters 1 to 11, it was like light bulbs kept going off.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, that is Isaiah.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's Psalm 7.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, like it just had these, because all of a sudden the vocabulary, the ideas were there.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And when I read them again, I was like, I see what, I see what they're doing better now.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still learning, but it it unlocks a lot of stuff in the Old Testament, especially.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you begin to read Paul, and Paul began to play off of these themes and these ideas.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he's just he is just playing off of things from these passages that you're they just come to life.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just like a key to the rest of the scriptures.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed, which is why I'm so excited.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're excited, and I hope you are excited as we now begin to journey through Genesis.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think today, uh, I hope this episode of the podcast is foundational for things that we will explore in days and weeks to come, both on Sundays and in the podcast.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're here with us today, checking us out for the very first time, welcome.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm Ricky.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is Alan.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we serve as pastors at Calvary Baptist Church, and the High Dive Podcast is a ministry of Calvary Baptist Church in Columbus, Georgia.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, a lot of our time and effort and energy is placed uh for our congregation, but certainly hopefully and prayerfully encouraging to anybody who's receiving it.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: So wherever you are in the world, you're welcome to follow us and walk with us on this journey.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're not going to reteach the sermons from each week.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: So feel free to check out our website.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can replay those.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Those are there and available for you.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if this is your first time with us, please share this out for everybody.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you find some encouragement, share it so that others can leave a review.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that helps some more people find us.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, subscribe, all the things.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm really interested in hearing your point of view on a lot of this stuff.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I hope you're ready because my my hope is you will be with us in a lot of these Genesis uh podcasts.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it might be helpful just to explain why.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um you just shared some recent study, but like your fascination with origins research and um all that goes back a long way.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So just not necessarily building your resume, but just help us understand why you're passionate about this and why your voice may carry some significance through these conversations.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So my undergrad studies was in biology pre-med at Bryan College, and I have a Bible degree for Bryan College.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the reason why my degree is that is I we studied origins.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I had the opportunity to take some classes with Dr.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Kurt Wise, who is one of the most renowned creation scientists in the world.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: He he was he was fantastic.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: He he is highly educated and trained in the space, and so um there was a an interest from a science perspective for me on how the Bible communicated how things came to be from a science perspective.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I got I so I studied that, but then there's also this Bible theology side that was deeply interesting to me.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got to study that at the at college, um, which really kind of wove some ideas together for me.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: It connected those two worlds that oftentimes seems contradictory, but to show in a way how they're complementary to one another.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: If God is the author of scripture and he's author of the world, then the the author does a contradict himself.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a strong interest in it from there.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then with origins and evolution and then teaching, I spent 10 years teaching high school science.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted my students to have a good understanding of both the science and the theology, how those things complemented one another.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I tried to do a lot of study on that to help explain how scripture is explaining the world and how that aligns with what we observe in the world and where the where the where the tension lies, how do we resolve the tension?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I spent a lot of time trying to explain that to a high school students because I think it was important.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I felt that if you if you can help students have a solid foundation that they can trust the scriptures, um, then they can have a solid foundation when they go into the public sphere, right?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I had I had just I know of a lot of people, I have friends in my world, in my life, who have deconstructed andor more accurately lost their faith because they ran into this science world that seemed to undermine the Bible.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if it undermined the Bible in Genesis on the first page, then how do I trust the new, like how do I trust it?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've heard that narrative.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just a it's an important component to me, not because I think it's fundamental to our faith, but I think it's fundamental to the faith.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's fundamental to understanding what Jesus was doing, the hope of the gospel, the the resolution of revelation are all grounded in what we read in chapters 1 to 11.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's important in that capacity.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I agree.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this will come up again, probably week four and week five, but I'll I'll just interject it now since we're just kind of having a conversation.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I do think it is foundational to the faith, into our faith.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um it matters because like I I have I have engaged with pastors that I know and love dearly, have great relationships with them, and they have said, I intentionally don't preach through the early verses and chapters of Genesis, through the creation narrative, out of fear for the scientific debate and the battleground that could be.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, because it doesn't have anything to do with the gospel.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, What wait a minute.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is where the gospel starts.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is it.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like there is there is so much like in the invitation of God designing us in this image for relationship, like it's there.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: The first page of the Bible defines the goal of the gospel.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: The first page of the Bible.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: The chief end of man is to live, glorify God and live with him.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is defined on the first page.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's destroyed on page three, right?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's damaged on page three.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the rest of the Bible is trying to explain how we get back to page one.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's pretty important theologically.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty important.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and more of that to come when we get into the chiasms of chapter one, specifically in verse 14, when we get into the seven days of creation and God's rest and what that matters and what he's inviting us into.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: All that to say where angels come from.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's gonna be fun.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'll I'll just say so.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: As we get into this, like there's so many fun things and questions that come up that we're not really gonna have time to dig into on Sunday mornings that just as a teaser, we're gonna get into here.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, when did angels come into play?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: When did the fall of Satan and the angels happen in relationship to the timeline of creation?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, were there dinosaurs?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or were they real?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, is evolution is there any layer or level or components of evolution that are reasonable or real?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how old is the earth?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, did God create it in seven literal days?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or do we have a gap theory approach, or was it an event did he use theistically, did he use evolution, that process?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's so many fun things.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are some other things that you hope we can dig into that this unlocks for conversation?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: When you go through chapters one to eleven, uh Nephlahim, who are these things?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Who, what, when, how?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: What what in the world is that?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, uh when you look at this, uh I think maybe giants, I'm just saying.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say that's what I said.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the all the things you've just hit on are important.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um the wonderful part of it is it's trying to accomplish a theological basis, but it's like a diamond.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can look at one facet and you think you've covered it, but if you just twist it, there's a whole other facet.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just twist it and there's a whole nother.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's enough to meditate on these chapters that you can spend a lifetime meditating on them and just discover new things.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: For example, okay.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's often this debate did Adam and Eve eat an apple or was it another fruit?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Was it wasn't a serpent actually, was it a snake that talked to them?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or was it we'll talk about it later.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be interesting.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I I want to use that uh you shared about those that have kind of met this wall and used it as not an excuse, but it is the I would say the enemy has used it for leverage toward um deconstruction, if we want to use that word.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've encountered faithful Christ followers who have avoided preaching and teaching on this because they don't see the connection to the gospel.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I hope we're able to give clarity and correction to all those things.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it also brings up this idea that Genesis oftentimes becomes like a battleground.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is, it is um we want to debate the science and we ask all those questions.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But do you think that was the original intent to the original audience?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Was it a was it in other words, wasn't it originally given for the purpose of resolving a scientific question, or was it originally provided for another reason?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it was I think it's both, but I think you have to understand the science that they were combating, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it is, I think the way that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are structured are theological treaties.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're developing a theological position.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And in doing so, they are they are presenting a science perspective that is antithesis to the Egyptian perspective.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not saying modern science, I'm talking about the Egyptian science, the world in which they lived, how things came to be, the origins of things, etc.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's there's an element of a science perspective, but not in a modern science perspective, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how that's not why it was it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think Genesis 1 is intentionally structured as a um battle against Egyptian gods and Egyptian deities, um, from the way in which the order of things are presented, the hierarchy of things that are presented.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what Genesis 1 is basically saying is Egypt, you have a series of gods, but I want you to know that our God is greater than your gods.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Matter of fact, our gods have created the things that your gods are supposed to be the power of.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so what is really happening, I think, in the text to Moses and the author, the the people who originally listened to it, because remember, this comes to a people who have spent 400 years in Egypt.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so they are Egyptian by culture.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So whether they're Hebrews by genealogy and by race, they're Egyptian by culture.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so as Moses is presenting this to them, he is he is undoing a theology that exists in Egyptian culture by putting Yahweh Elohim at the top of the hierarchy and all of these other gods as things that God created as opposed to gods that created.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a theological argument that is being made in Genesis 1 and 2, but it's also a science argument in terms of Egyptian science perspective.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Would it be then um accurate to say for us as the modern reader, I think we always need to slow down and ask the question, what was the original intent to the original audience?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess the same thing is true for us today in that there is theology for us to ultimately, I would say uh Moses was introducing people to God.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, in the beginning, God, Yahweh.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so first and foremost, it's theological.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Who is God and what is this relationship between God and man?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but it also does counterbalance the modern narrative of the culture of that day.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So if back in then it was uh I gotta get you out of Egypt and I've gotta get Egypt out of you.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas today, you know, we don't necessarily have the the Babylonian or the Egyptian narratives that we're competing, but we do compete with other culture narratives on how this world came to be because at the end of the day, humanity is still asking the same questions.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: These are the great questions.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: How did I get here?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Where did I come from?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's the purpose of all of this?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Those questions are fundamental.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that Genesis 1 answers those questions.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I like to think of it as a diamond.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can look at it from an Egyptian cultural perspective, and I can find the answers.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can look at it from a Babylonian ancient Babylonian cultural perspective, and I can, and I think looking at it from a modern Westerner perspective, there's insight and information about it that explains who I am, where I came from, where I'm going, that God exists.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: It defines all of these parameters for me, even from a modern perspective.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So for those of us that are entering into those conversations, maybe I can imagine someone even taking this Genesis study for us or this podcast episode, having a conversation over lunch.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, maybe let's get real, real, real together.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe uh maybe you grew up in a public school and you were taught science in school that we were formed of for millions of years, and this evolutionary theory.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I maybe grew up in a Christian, maybe I was homeschooled and I was only ever taught the young earth creation perspective.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're sitting at lunch and we're debating this back and forth.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, a common thing that happens is you in that scenario, you argue your position from scientific perspective, and I quote Bible verses to you.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and so we you speak science, I speak theology, and we get nowhere.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, kind of talk us through why does that matter?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: When is it appropriate?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is it ever appropriate to have theological arguments towards scientific perspectives, or should I um argue science with science and theology with theology?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very compounded question, but talk through that with us.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that when you when people who talk, when you have this conversation and I'm just quoting scripture and you're quoting science, we're talking past one another.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not actually having a conversation.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um, one of the just simple principles of good communication is meet your audience where they are.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm having a conversation with with people who are old world, evolutionists, millions of years, it's important for me to meet them where they are and have a conversation from the science.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to me, I go to Paul in Acts, where he's a sermon on Mars Hill.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: He shows up in this place and he and as he begins to preach this sermon, he quotes their poets.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then he goes to this one statue where it's like this idol to the unknown God.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul doesn't like start talking Hebrew and starts quoting Isaiah and starts quoting Psalms.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: What Paul does in that moment is he quotes their poets and he uses their object lesson to point them to Jesus.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it benefits us if we're going to get in that, if we really want to get into that conversation, then you need to be able to get into their world from a science perspective and make the argument from a science perspective because it's it's there.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like it doesn't exist.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: The science, the science supports the biblical approach, the biblical model.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it it demands that you kind of have to understand it.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't understand it, that's okay.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just don't just start quoting scripture to science rebuttals because you're talking past one another.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's a couple of principles related to science.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Science, science, by its very nature, has certain limitations.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it can only make statements about what is observable.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's not observable, it's not measurable, it's not repeatable, science, by definition, doesn't speak to it, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can't, if you can't conduct some type of experiment to it in which you can observe the outcomes and then draw conclusions from those outcomes, you're no longer talking about science, you're talking about metaphysics.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's a whole different conversation.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so science has limits.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's limited to the physical world, so it can't talk about God, it can't talk about spiritual beings, it can't, it doesn't have, it doesn't have the mechanisms to do that because it can only talk about the physical world, that it can be observed by your senses.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing that is a reality of science is science is because humans are doing it, it has biases.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And biases are innate, they're they're part of the process, and part of what A scientist is trying to do is alleviate biases so they can look at the information logically and rationally without biases dictating their conclusions.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: But that is an innate part of our process.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: You just can't completely get rid of biases.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what biases do is it allows you to look at data and go, well, that data is not accurate and discard it, or that information doesn't seem to align with our processes.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now you wouldn't, a scientist would not consciously do that because that would be unethical.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the biases in the data say something's not right with the data.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Let's reevaluate this.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And in doing so, so that that's a problem that happens in the science.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Christians do it too.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's too old, that wasn't work, so let's throw that data out.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that anybody that's doing science has these biases and it filters into the work.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the other another limitation of science is you can only draw conclusions on what you've observed, right?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So when you start take talking about things that are millions of years old or billions of years old or things that are these time frames, etc., you're only you're drawing conclusions based off of inferences, which is which is why the science becomes a bit of a challenge.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so science is limited with what it can do, what it can say, because it's only about the observable world.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you start talking about where did God come from or how did God make us, it's kind of outside the parameters of physic of science and it's in the metaphysics and it's in the spiritual realm.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Science doesn't have a space there.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it becomes important for us if we're going to talk to a science person who's coming at us with a science argument, that we also enter into that from a science argument.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if we want to follow the logic, then we point the holes in the logic.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a bias.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's a and you just try to draw the conclusions and then let people follow where they may go because of it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so is it if we're talking science with science, I'm not in trained in science, you are.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um am I using the right words when I say there is a scientific model?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when I'm looking at the origins conversation, I may not even use the creation word yet.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've just origins, how did this all begin?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: There is an evolutionary model that's using all the principles of science that ultimately answers the question based upon the things that you just said of how did this happen?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: What can we analyze?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: What conclusions can we draw?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a creation model?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's a creation model.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so like if if I'm wanting to learn more, maybe I grew up in, maybe I grew up in a public school and I only ever learned about the evolutionary model, but I would like to learn more about the creation model so that I can articulate science with science.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where do I go?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think a a a place that I would recommend you start.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I would not put this as the finish line, but a place to start.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the um ARC encounter, yeah, um Center for Creation Research Research is a great place to begin.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of great insights and information that's going to give you some science perspective and some creation model arrangements to kind of to put things together.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that's a great place to go.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Answers in Genesis is a good place to go um as a as a as a starting framework to understand some of the model approaches to how that happens.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I would even, you even mentioned him initially, but Dr.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Kurt Wise has written so much in his world right now.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so like if someone and maybe we can even drop these in the show notes.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have to ask producer Blake to do that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you know, Center for Creation Research, Answers in Genesis, maybe some some journal articles that Kurt Wise has written.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of it, I think, um lends itself maybe toward geology or soil samples and those sorts of things, but it would be a great thing.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do you date things?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right, that's right.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's circular reasons sometimes that come into play, but it's dated this age because of those things, and those things are dated this age because of that thing.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one so there's arguments that are made there that comes back to science has limits.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the I think the encouraging thing that I hope that we can grasp are a couple things from this conversation.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: How important this is.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how foundational it is to understanding not just origins and where we fit and why we're here, but to the gospel.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like this matters.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think it's also important to hear that this doesn't have to be synonymous with combat.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, yes, there's a lot of debate that happens when we center because there are a lot of different opinions.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: This doesn't have to be a battleground, but I do think is important for us to be well rooted in our theology, but to also explore the science and to read it so that we can have those conversations in a in as Peter writes with gentleness and respect.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and to do it well.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it one of the things that's important to note is this is ultimately a worldview question.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you never you can never argue someone to change their worldview.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like the debate doesn't change a worldview's argument.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So ultimately, how you interpret the information, this is part of the bias argument, how you interpret the data is going to be filtered through your worldview lens.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you come to the discussion with the view that God does not exist in a worldview that is naturalistic, and you look at the data, the only conclusion you can come to is God was not involved.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So how do I explain the data?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you develop a model.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you come from the perspective that God does exist and that he's involved in our world, and you look at the same data, you're going to come to a different conclusion from the same data.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's oftentimes not the data, it's the worldview.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And why Genesis 1 matters and Genesis 2 matters and Genesis 3 matter is because they help provide the framework of a biblical worldview.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it defines with which to interpret the data.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so you could then argue, well, that's circular reason.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're using the scriptures to dictate this.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, what I'm saying is that defines the worldview of a biblical theist.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm a theist and I'm not a not a Jew or an Islam, but I'm a biblical theist, then I have to let the Bible dictate the framing of how I view the world.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if I let the scriptures dictate the way I frame the and view the world, then the conclusions that I come to from that viewing is going to be filtered through the lens of scripture.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So with that being said, let's kind of dig into the text a little bit.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: The beauty of this conversation today is this is unscripted.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I gave him a general outline, but we're just seeing where the conversation goes.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So reflecting back on this Sunday, okay, Genesis 1, 1 and 2, they wrote a couple of interesting things.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about um the Hebrew word bara, which would mean to create, or tohu wabohu, this formless and void.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or um, so let's there's so much though, going back to what you said a moment ago about their science and theology and the original author authorial intent, yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um helping us introducing us to who God is, and then also contrary to what the culture says, there's a lot about this whole idea of chaos waters and empty and formless and void.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of talk us through what you understand that to be and how that fits into the creation story.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: In our modern world, if I were to ask you to imagine nothing, imagine, imagine nothingness.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am I imagine I could tell you where my brain goes.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: You go uh you tell me where did your brain go?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm in Stranger Things in the upside down, and there's nothing but black.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Just black, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I am.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just utter blackness.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: So in our modern world, if you ask anybody, imag tell me what nothing looks like.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: The answer to that question is going to be what you've just described, just blackness, right?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you ask an ancient Egyptian, what is nothingness, they're going to say the chaotic ocean is nothingness.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Literally the ocean that is like waves ramping and storms coming up.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: That is nothingness.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you ask ancient Babylonians, in your imagination, what is nothing?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: They would likely describe for you a barren desert.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's nothing.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: That is nothing.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you and I would go, well, there's something there.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's water there.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's not nothing.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or there's sand and dirt and debris there.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's not nothing.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the concept of nothingness is driven by your worldview, right?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we in our modern world have a modern scientific perspective.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: We look out at the stars and the galaxies and beyond, and we imagine what is beyond that, and we go, just black nothingness.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Babylonians and Egyptians look at the nothingness from the cosmology that they have.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And to the ancient Egyptian culture that lived right up against the ocean waters and the Nile River that fled and fought, the waters were the things.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond the thing that I can't even see it.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even see it.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: I look out and it's just chaotic waters going all over the place.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's nothing.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing out there.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: So for Genesis 1 to say that the Spirit was hovering over the waters, he was saying God was hovering over the nothing.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: There is nothing here.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to form something out of nothing.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so in our vocabulary, we go, well, there's water.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: In their vocabulary, they go, Well, there's nothing here.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so under I think understanding the voc the cultural framework makes perfect sense.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Helps explain what this tovu vavohu is, this wasted and that it's nothing.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have to work on your Hebrew pronunciation.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's an important distinction.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: We look at that verse, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the deep.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a way to say to a people from an Egyptian culture, God was looking at nothing and formed something.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because in the Egyptian culture, there's this dragon that comes up out of the water, and there's this fight that takes place, and his gut split open, and out of that gut comes dry land.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so in the mythologies of ancient Egypt, this dragon creature, sea creature that comes out of the nothingness gets turned into land.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And in the Genesis narrative, God just simply says, Hey, land, come out of the water.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's no serpent, there's no battle, there's no fight, there's no splitting of a.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's happening is there's a theological conversation happening in the text.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so this formless water, I there's a there's an argument, especially from a modern Western cultural perspective.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: They put a gap in there.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: See, the God created everything and then it just fell apart, like the flood.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then God created everything again.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so this waste and waterland is like this deconstructed world that God had created, and then it deconstructed, and he had to recreate it again.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: That would that would make sense from a modern science western perspective.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: It would not make sense from an ancient Egyptian, ancient Hebrew perspective.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: And nor from a biblical perspective.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Nor from a biblical theological perspective.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think here's what I love about that.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even when we think about the nothingness, it was formless and God gave it form.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was empty and God filled it up.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: The spirit, there's even to me, there's even a subtle picture of the Trinity at play, but just hovering with intent and purpose, going to transform nothing into something.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is so helpful for understanding the origin story.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also hopeful for our life because this is where the glimpses of the gospel and redemption begin.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like God is in the business of taking nothing and making something out of it.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so there's just when uh my weakness becomes strength.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: His strength is made perfect in my weakness, or he brings dead things to life, and what is lost is found.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we just start to see that pattern being reinforced all throughout the redemption story.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think if if you were if you were to just take verses one and two and just meditate on those verses, like, okay, you it it at first you'll get sort of the surface things, and if you just keep letting your brain meditate on those verses, what does it mean?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: What how did how could what could this?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think inevitably you'll end up landing on some of these things that the New Testament writers talk about, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like when John 1 is written, John, I think, John is meditating on Genesis 1, and it says, and God said, Let there be, and he just inserts word there.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: The word.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, that's the word.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the word, that's Jesus.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think if we if we would just be willing to just meditate on the text and just let the thoughts of what this, what is the text saying, and just keep reflecting on it.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we will find ourselves doing the same thing that the ancient, that that the Pope, that the that David was doing when he wrote Psalms 2, and some of these Psalms that are reflecting on the creation narrative.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And he he's beginning to see the character and nature of God rise out of this surface of this thing because he's just meditating on what does that mean for it to be formless and void and for God to actually like what does that mean?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is he doing?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do I and to just meditate on it and just let it sit in your soul for a while?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have a hard time doing that.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: We do because I want to get to the point, then I'm gonna move on.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Got to the point, we'll move on.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not this this is ancient meditation literature, like it's designed to be thought about and reflected on and marinated in and go back to and come back to it again and just keep it's designed that way.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that if we can meditate on it, we'll discover more truths in the text than we can imagine.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think I think there is part of that then, if if when we move forward as to like Hebrew theology and how it developed, uh, so much of the rabbinical process was to look for scripture in the text to go back into the prophets, to go back into the ancient story, to ultimately get right back to Genesis 1, 2, and 3.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, which is more evidence of why this is foundationally significant.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I I think the other hard the hardest part, I think, for us is to know, like, okay, I think we're good.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because yeah, I think you and I could just talk about this forever.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think for today, maybe we'll put a pen in the conversation because again, we could uh there are more questions that continue to come up that we'll but we will have time, multiple episodes and multiple Sundays to talk about.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think we what we have said, restated, and reinforced today is why this matters, why Genesis 1 through 11 is so foundational, even the challenge to meditate and just sit with the simplicity of Genesis 1, 1, and 2 and ask those questions, dig into those words, rest in that presence, maybe even follow those cross-references throughout why John brings them back up or why Paul refers to them.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how does it link to Deuteronomy 32?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: How does it connect to Jeremiah 4?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's it is deep.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's everywhere, it's it really is everywhere.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, which is part of the intention why we as a church really want to dig into this, we want to sit with it.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna spend almost two years going through it, not just in Genesis 1 through 11, but through all of Genesis.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it matters.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so, uh, anything else you want to add before we wrap up today?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's good.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think in one of our conversations, we need to talk about the number seven and the number 10.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think maybe uh in two or three episodes when we're really getting into the days of creation, that'll be a great because we're we're gonna get into all that.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um the number of days, why they mattered, all that kind of stuff.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: I will just simply place this on the table.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: The number seven and the number ten show up in verse one and two.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll go back there.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you're ready.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be awesome.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, that being said, a little teaser of things to come, thank you again for checking us out.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing your insights.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in case you missed the first part, this is the High Dog Podcast.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Minister of Calvary Baptist Church in Columbus, Georgia.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Check out the links in our show notes to find out more about who we are.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can also use that to navigate through the sermons in case you missed those.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Also, Producer Blake will put some of those show notes that we mentioned, referring back to the Center for Creation Research, Andrews and Genesis, some of Dr.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Kurt Wise's information if you want to do more digging into the science.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we hope you're encouraged.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Sound good?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.