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Alli Parker on how to become a debut bestseller · The Book Deal

• 0:05
  Tina: This is the Book Deal Podcast, a podcast all about inspiring and motivating writers,
• 0:10
  Madeleine: where we interview seasoned and debut authors about their own writing, from the blank page to the book deal and beyond.
• 0:17
  Tina: We hope these stories will help you to stay positive, focused and carve your own path forward.
• 0:22
  Tina: I'm Madeline Cleary.
• 0:23
  Tina: And I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:25
  Tina: And this is the book deal podcast.
• 0:31
  Madeleine: The book deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:40
  Madeleine: Hey, Tina.
• 0:42
  Madeleine: Good morning, Madeline.
• 0:44
  Madeleine: How are you?
• 0:45
  Madeleine: Oh, very well.
• 0:46
  Madeleine: It's been, we're just sort of catching up quickly before this podcast saying how busy it's been for both of us in the last couple of weeks, but exciting busy.
• 0:56
  Madeleine: We've got so much to update on.
• 0:58
  Madeleine: Yeah, we really do.
• 1:00
  Madeleine: I have an agenda for the first time in these chats.
• 1:02
  Madeleine: We have an agenda.
• 1:03
  Madeleine: So we're going to keep to time.
• 1:06
  Madeleine: Let's just see about that.
• 1:07
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 1:09
  Madeleine: All right, Tina, first up on the agenda, your edits, you are on the other side.
• 1:15
  Madeleine: You deliberately did not wish to speak about this in the last episode.
• 1:19
  Madeleine: So tell us how was that
• 1:20
  Tina: experience?
• 1:22
  Tina: Yes.
• 1:22
  Tina: Well, yeah, you're right.
• 1:23
  Tina: I did well at avoiding it last time.
• 1:25
  Tina: Um, how's the experience?
• 1:27
  Tina: It was, um, it was like nothing that I've ever experienced before.
• 1:32
  Tina: And now you're right now that I'm at the other side of it, it's been like a week since I've handed them in now, but, um, you know, it was all self imposed pressure though.
• 1:40
  Tina: I have to say, um, I don't like asking for extensions and I don't, I just really, you know, want to do the best that I can, which everybody feels the same way, I guess.
• 1:52
  Tina: But, um, I, yeah, I don't know if I mentioned it much last time, but you know, I had my first round edits back from book one of my last manuscript that I handed in and they weren't even that big.
• 2:05
  Tina: They were quite light, but something in it made me dig deep into it.
• 2:11
  Tina: What, what was it?
• 2:13
  Tina: I think just responding just to one of the questions about a character and then it just made me just go deep in it.
• 2:20
  Tina: And I think it was actually a question that I.
• 2:24
  Tina: Actually probably would have answered had I had longer, I think, uh, that's the thing with writing to a deadline, I guess, is it's a totally different ballgame and everything that I went through in the last few months of editing and scrapping stuff and rewriting stuff, which I've never done anything that big before, because I fully believe editing something is harder than writing it from scratch, you know, because you're trying to Um, and it, um, yeah, so that was, that was really hard, but everything that, that I went through and I looked at it at the end, cause you know, I was sort of getting down on myself at one point being like, Oh my God, why, why is this so much work?
• 3:06
  Tina: Why are you struggling so much?
• 3:07
  Tina: And it's because you have a deadline, right?
• 3:09
  Tina: Yeah.
• 3:09
  Tina: So everything that I went through, I would have gone through anyway to get to the end, to get to the finished product that I really am really happy with.
• 3:16
  Tina: But you would have just done that in your own time and space.
• 3:19
  Tina: You know, rewriting is not unusual for manuscripts, you know, throwing stuff out is not unusual for manuscripts.
• 3:25
  Tina: Totally, you know, changing plot lines isn't unusual, but doing it so compressed and compacted in such a short period of time is stressful.
• 3:33
  Madeleine: And while you have so many other things going on in your life as well, it's school, it coincided with school.
• 3:39
  Madeleine: School holidays, I think as well.
• 3:41
  Madeleine: And you're still working.
• 3:42
  Madeleine: I think I might've messaged you at one point going, can you please take some time off work?
• 3:47
  Tina: I know.
• 3:49
  Tina: And then I was like, I've taken all my time and I'm saving my time for next year.
• 3:53
  Tina: But yes, it was pretty compressed.
• 3:54
  Tina: And I have to say when I did it, I got up like at three 31 morning and I just did a whole nother read through and I sent it that morning.
• 4:03
  Tina: And when I sent it, I was actually like, um, Shaking a bit because kind of, I was excited and I was happy and I was, yeah, and adrenaline.
• 4:13
  Tina: So yeah, I mean, no, no, no pressure from any other outside sources.
• 4:18
  Tina: My publishers are amazing and supportive and would have definitely given me more time, but I didn't want more time.
• 4:23
  Tina: I wanted to, I wanted to just get it done and I was happy with it.
• 4:26
  Tina: So have
• 4:27
  Madeleine: you managed to calm down since then?
• 4:29
  Madeleine: It's so it's been about a week.
• 4:31
  Tina: Yes.
• 4:32
  Tina: Yes.
• 4:33
  Tina: Well, I very promptly then got a cold, which I find is always what happens, you know, when you're stressed out, don't you?
• 4:38
  Tina: You know, I, I used to get like that at uni as well.
• 4:41
  Tina: Remember you get all your assignments in and then, and then your body's like, well, um, that's enough.
• 4:45
  Tina: Now you have to rest.
• 4:46
  Tina: So yes, I, you know, I, I had a celebratory nap that day.
• 4:51
  Madeleine: I love that.
• 4:52
  Madeleine: I love that.
• 4:54
  Tina: Anyway,
• 4:54
  Madeleine: I think we should be championing celebratory naps.
• 4:57
  Madeleine: That's a great way.
• 4:58
  Madeleine: Whenever we have important milestones, then everyone should just take a celebratory nap.
• 5:02
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 5:03
  Madeleine: You know, don't worry
• 5:04
  Tina: about a glass of champagne or a nice dinner, just a nap.
• 5:08
  Tina: I agree.
• 5:09
  Tina: I like that.
• 5:10
  Tina: I like that.
• 5:10
  Tina: Okay.
• 5:10
  Tina: Is that your top
• 5:11
  Madeleine: tip having a celebratory
• 5:13
  Tina: nap?
• 5:13
  Tina: Celebrate with something nice at least.
• 5:15
  Tina: Um, I highly recommend a nap.
• 5:18
  Madeleine: Um, okay.
• 5:19
  Madeleine: So I also want to ask you about your audio book as well, because I heard that you are currently auditioning some voice actors.
• 5:28
  Madeleine: Is that right?
• 5:29
  Madeleine: Well,
• 5:30
  Tina: yeah.
• 5:30
  Tina: I mean, I didn't know the process either, so please enlighten
• 5:33
  Madeleine: me.
• 5:34
  Madeleine: Well, yeah.
• 5:34
  Tina: I, I mean, I knew that there was possibility for audio books or audio book is really exciting that there will be one for the books, but, uh, yes, then there was, I've got a couple of clips with people's.
• 5:47
  Tina: Uh, voices and they just read a little bit of your book, which is very strange and really cool at the same time.
• 5:55
  Tina: Yeah, it must be.
• 5:56
  Tina: Yeah, and it's really hard to choose because everyone sounds really great.
• 5:58
  Tina: So, but yeah, it was really strange, but really cool to think that, um, yeah, that it's going to be a audio book read by these beautiful people with beautiful voices.
• 6:08
  Tina: So yeah, that's it.
• 6:09
  Tina: That's was another really cool thing that, Is the release of the audio book timed with the release of the trade?
• 6:15
  Tina: I believe so, because if you look it up, it's, it says the same.
• 6:19
  Tina: Yeah,
• 6:19
  Madeleine: it's very cool, but yeah.
• 6:22
  Tina: So that's kind of been my week getting my fortnight, getting my edits done and, um, doing all those.
• 6:30
  Tina: Fun things.
• 6:31
  Tina: But you've been doing some other super fun things.
• 6:35
  Tina: I've been seeing your photos and I have massive FOMO.
• 6:39
  Madeleine: Oh, Tina, I wish you could transport yourself down to Melbourne.
• 6:42
  Madeleine: You'd
• 6:42
  Tina: have to come down more.
• 6:44
  Tina: There's, you know, we do do some things up here on the Gold Coast, but not a lot.
• 6:47
  Tina: Yes, of course.
• 6:49
  Tina: We need to do more.
• 6:50
  Tina: So tell me, tell me about your exciting fortnight.
• 6:54
  Tina: You've had a lot of fun things happen.
• 6:56
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 6:56
  Madeleine: It feels, life feels a little surreal and, and I just, yeah, I, I feel like since handing the edits, I thought, Oh, I'm going to have all this time to just be able to, to work on book three and the work in progress and do lots of research and have that kind of fun.
• 7:12
  Madeleine: Time and space, but it's been filled with all these other wonderful things, which I love.
• 7:16
  Madeleine: So, um, last weekend I spent it writing the author's note and acknowledgements for the book and some book club questions too, which was actually really fun to write.
• 7:26
  Madeleine: So it's getting included.
• 7:27
  Madeleine: Who gave you the book club questions?
• 7:30
  Madeleine: Um, well, no, so a firm, so my editor emailed me and she said, Oh, we'd like to include some book club questions at the end of the book.
• 7:37
  Madeleine: So can you have a think about.
• 7:39
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 7:40
  Madeleine: What they might be.
• 7:41
  Madeleine: And they were trying to get them into the arc, I think, which is going to be printed soon.
• 7:45
  Madeleine: So, um, that was really fun to write.
• 7:47
  Madeleine: And it was amazing.
• 7:48
  Madeleine: I thought to myself, Oh, it'll be really quick to write the acknowledgements and the authors.
• 7:52
  Madeleine: No, it won't take me long.
• 7:53
  Madeleine: Uh, it didn't,
• 7:55
  Tina: it took me a long, it'll be like a whole day.
• 7:58
  Tina: This is what I've heard.
• 7:59
  Tina: Okay.
• 7:59
  Tina: I thought it might need to take longer than a whole day.
• 8:01
  Tina: Can I, can I ask about that?
• 8:03
  Tina: Yes.
• 8:04
  Tina: So during, along the way did you keep record of people that you thought you knew?
• 8:11
  Tina: So you might like to put an acknowledgement, like if someone came into your mind or you worked with someone on, you know, checking, fact checking or something, did you write a little list or did you just, well,
• 8:21
  Madeleine: I never thought this novel would be published.
• 8:23
  Madeleine: So I was just writing it for myself.
• 8:24
  Madeleine: So I didn't really, and I, I do recommend people that's going to be my top tip for sparring writers.
• 8:29
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 8:30
  Madeleine: Write down this, just even if it's a manifestation of a dream of one day being published, just Right.
• 8:35
  Madeleine: All this down.
• 8:35
  Madeleine: And if you're writing historical fiction, write down all the historical references that you're using and changing and, and adjusting, um, and taking liberties on because it'll be very, very helpful one day when you are published to be able to bring all that together into a very, um, concise author's note, um, author's notes, I think are particularly used in historical fiction because it explains to the reader where you've drawn from.
• 8:59
  Madeleine: From resources where you've lent on history.
• 9:01
  Madeleine: Um, but it was actually really difficult to, to write and, and do it in a way that, um, it tells a story as well, rather than just outlaying the facts.
• 9:11
  Tina: Yeah.
• 9:11
  Tina: Doing some dot points, which is generally how my brain works.
• 9:15
  Tina: So exactly,
• 9:16
  Madeleine: but got it done.
• 9:17
  Madeleine: So, um, and I really, really, um, Anxious about missing someone in the launchments.
• 9:22
  Madeleine: That's a big fear.
• 9:24
  Madeleine: Um, but hopefully, yeah, if anyone pops into my mind, I still have time to go back and add them in.
• 9:29
  Madeleine: Parents are included there.
• 9:31
  Madeleine: My parents are there.
• 9:32
  Madeleine: That's the most important thing.
• 9:34
  Tina: And of course that line, that's like, I feel really, I'm really sorry if I've forgotten someone and I'm bound to forget someone.
• 9:39
  Tina: It's just the caveat there.
• 9:40
  Tina: Yes.
• 9:41
  Madeleine: That's an important one.
• 9:42
  Madeleine: I'm going to add that one in.
• 9:43
  Madeleine: Um, but yes.
• 9:44
  Madeleine: And then we've had some great events in Melbourne the last few weeks.
• 9:48
  Madeleine: So, um, I went to, um, on Wednesday night, um, uh, Robbie Arnett's, um, books in bars at Dimmick's in Knox.
• 9:56
  Madeleine: And that was in conversation with Allie Parker, who's just wonderful and delightful.
• 10:00
  Madeleine: She's a local author in, in around my area.
• 10:03
  Madeleine: And she's written at the foot of the cherry tree, which actually is the next interview for this episode.
• 10:08
  Madeleine: So do recommend you continue listening on.
• 10:10
  Madeleine: Um, and Robbie's got a new book out.
• 10:12
  Madeleine: Um, And it just sounds amazing.
• 10:16
  Madeleine: Um, so he was great.
• 10:17
  Madeleine: We, we got a drink afterwards with, with Robbie and Ali and some of the pan Macmillan team.
• 10:22
  Madeleine: So I felt like it was just a really sort of magical night.
• 10:26
  Madeleine: And then, um, on Thursday night, um, I went out with, um, Marion, one of our debut crew, 2025 authors.
• 10:36
  Madeleine: So we went out to.
• 10:38
  Madeleine: Uh, set it to a restaurant called Luxsmith, um, and that's to celebrate the release of Emily McGuire's new historical fiction book, Rapture.
• 10:48
  Madeleine: Uh, and it was in conversation with the wonderful Kate Mildenhall, who we know, and it was just great.
• 10:54
  Madeleine: It was this beautiful, dimly lit restaurant, um, filled with all these, um, beautiful people and, you know, Um, you know, Kate and Emily had a great conversation, we'd have some food, we'd have some wine and then we'd have some Q and a, and yeah, just, it's just a very sort of warm environment.
• 11:13
  Madeleine: And then I, um, Friday morning, so this is the next day, uh, got up very early, uh, and did something that's not my normal Friday, got my makeup done.
• 11:24
  Madeleine: Did
• 11:24
  Tina: you
• 11:24
  Madeleine: have photos yesterday or was it the day before?
• 11:26
  Madeleine: Uh, yesterday.
• 11:27
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 11:27
  Madeleine: Yesterday.
• 11:28
  Madeleine: So yeah.
• 11:29
  Madeleine: So yesterday morning, um, Uh, so it was really fun, actually, um, um, met up with a wonderful photographer.
• 11:36
  Madeleine: His name's John tuber, um, and he's actually moved to Adelaide, but he was only in Melbourne for this week.
• 11:43
  Madeleine: So managed to get a slot in, uh, and down at St Kilda, I wanted to do some headshots that were a bit more natural and I'm not really a staged person.
• 11:53
  Madeleine: Um, and I, I, I just don't think I'd feel comfortable like in a studio.
• 11:57
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 11:57
  Madeleine: I know what you mean.
• 11:58
  Madeleine: So I just wanted something a bit, yeah.
• 12:00
  Madeleine: I'm just not the kind of serious author.
• 12:02
  Madeleine: Like I don't think I can do a serious expression.
• 12:05
  Madeleine: I'd love a serious photo, but I just, I agree.
• 12:08
  Madeleine: I can't do it either.
• 12:09
  Madeleine: Well, I, I got inspiration from your, um, author headshots actually.
• 12:13
  Madeleine: Oh.
• 12:13
  Madeleine: You know,'cause yours is at nature and looked really relaxed and, and informal.
• 12:17
  Madeleine: And I was like, I like that.
• 12:18
  Madeleine: That's what I want.
• 12:19
  Madeleine: So, um, yeah,
• 12:21
  Tina: that was, that was the vibe I was going for
• 12:23
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 12:24
  Madeleine: I love it.
• 12:24
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 12:25
  Tina: And I did know my photographer, so, but she had to just keep.
• 12:28
  Tina: Making me laugh.
• 12:29
  Tina: So I could laugh and smile naturally.
• 12:31
  Tina: Otherwise
• 12:31
  Madeleine: I just do this really horrible smile.
• 12:33
  Madeleine: John's like, just pretend like that you're having a great time and someone's telling a great joke over my shoulder.
• 12:38
  Madeleine: So I was like,
• 12:41
  Tina: that does make you laugh though.
• 12:43
  Tina: Cause you're laughing at
• 12:43
  Madeleine: yourself being silly.
• 12:45
  Madeleine: Like I know it's true.
• 12:47
  Madeleine: It was super fun that he showed me a couple of photos.
• 12:49
  Madeleine: They, um, I think that's going to turn out really well.
• 12:52
  Madeleine: So yeah, that's the exciting.
• 12:55
  Madeleine: Kind of stuff.
• 12:55
  Madeleine: And then the, yeah, the last update I have, I think, um, is I got my cover.
• 13:02
  Madeleine: How did you feel?
• 13:03
  Madeleine: Did you know it was coming?
• 13:04
  Madeleine: Um, no, uh, I, I mean, no, I had no idea.
• 13:07
  Madeleine: And I was in a, um, Oh, I shouldn't say this, but I was in a team's call at work and it sort of popped up on my phone and I just happened to glance at my phone like normally.
• 13:17
  Madeleine: And if my boss is listening, he did actually say he listened to the first episode.
• 13:21
  Madeleine: So if Paul, my boss is listening, I do not check my phone during work, but I just happened to.
• 13:29
  Madeleine: Pop up and Ruby's name popped up cover and that subject was cover, cover concept.
• 13:35
  Madeleine: And I was like, Oh my God, when will this team's meeting end?
• 13:39
  Madeleine: I want to go to focus.
• 13:40
  Madeleine: Yeah, I know.
• 13:41
  Madeleine: And I, and I was happy as soon as I saw it.
• 13:44
  Madeleine: So, um, I just think it's.
• 13:46
  Madeleine: Beautiful.
• 13:46
  Madeleine: Affirm Press have done such an amazing job.
• 13:48
  Madeleine: I'm so, so happy.
• 13:50
  Madeleine: So when I do get the word that I can share it, I will, uh, and I can't wait to do that.
• 13:55
  Tina: I cannot wait to see your cover.
• 13:57
  Madeleine: Oh, I'm so excited to share it with you Tina.
• 13:59
  Madeleine: So it's going to be fun.
• 14:01
  Madeleine: All right.
• 14:02
  Madeleine: I need to check our agenda.
• 14:03
  Madeleine: Have we ticked everything
• 14:04
  Tina: off?
• 14:05
  Tina: I'm going to the book links, Story Arts Brisbane.
• 14:10
  Tina: Uh, little, uh, event that they have on for the weekend.
• 14:14
  Tina: Um, I can only go one day, but, um, it, it's really exciting.
• 14:18
  Tina: I think it's completely booked out now, but by the time this goes to air.
• 14:23
  Tina: Oh, actually, though, there might be still time by the time this goes to air.
• 14:26
  Tina: If people want to look it up, book links, story arts, uh, Brisbane.
• 14:29
  Tina: Of course you have to be, you know, up here in Queens.
• 14:31
  Tina: Then, oh, you don't have to be.
• 14:32
  Tina: You could, um.
• 14:33
  Tina: Um, you could travel in, but I'm just going on a Sunday.
• 14:35
  Tina: There's heaps of amazing, um, uh, authors and publishers and agents who will be speaking, um, on the Sunday program.
• 14:43
  Tina: I'm doing, um, like masterclasses one with, um, Amy Kaufman, which is.
• 14:49
  Madeleine: Amazing.
• 14:50
  Madeleine: She, I mean, so I've listened to her speak before and she's just wonderful.
• 14:53
  Madeleine: I think she did a course for ASA that I did with her.
• 14:56
  Madeleine: It was brilliant as well.
• 14:57
  Madeleine: She's amazing.
• 14:59
  Tina: She was amazing.
• 15:00
  Tina: And we've, and she's so generous with her time as well, because she actually just zoomed into a, debut crew 2024 catch up at the beginning of last year and just offered her time up to anybody who had questions about everything, um, which was so kind of her.
• 15:18
  Tina: Um, maybe we should get
• 15:19
  Madeleine: Amy on the podcast, Tina.
• 15:21
  Tina: I think, well, I'll ask her
• 15:23
  Madeleine: next week.
• 15:23
  Madeleine: Please do.
• 15:24
  Madeleine: I will.
• 15:25
  Madeleine: And I would love to have Jay Kristoff on with her as well.
• 15:28
  Madeleine: I feel
• 15:28
  Tina: like that would be really fun.
• 15:30
  Tina: You know, I got to introduce, uh, Jay Kristoff actually at The, um, Queensland writer center genre con a couple of years ago, I volunteered for the day and I didn't realize, but when I got there, I just thought I was going to be like directing people to the bathrooms and stuff.
• 15:44
  Tina: And they're like, here's your script for, um, introducing all the, all the authors on stage.
• 15:49
  Tina: I was like, Oh, okay.
• 15:51
  Tina: Wow.
• 15:52
  Tina: And yeah, so that was, Yeah, that was my claim to fame.
• 15:55
  Tina: And he's super tall.
• 15:56
  Tina: He's super tall.
• 15:57
  Tina: And I'm sure he really appreciated my, um, introduction that I gave him.
• 16:01
  Madeleine: Well, he used to come into the bookshop where I worked because he used to be a local, um, this area.
• 16:06
  Madeleine: So yeah, he used to come on all the time.
• 16:08
  Madeleine: This is, um, pre his books exploding.
• 16:11
  Madeleine: Um, This is going to be a to do.
• 16:13
  Madeleine: Let's get Amy Kaufman and Jay Kristoff on the pop.
• 16:18
  Tina: Okay.
• 16:19
  Tina: Putting it out there.
• 16:20
  Tina: Manifesting.
• 16:20
  Tina: Manifesting.
• 16:21
  Tina: Manifesting.
• 16:22
  Tina: Um, okay.
• 16:24
  Tina: Uh, yeah.
• 16:24
  Tina: And so that's, that's going to be really exciting next weekend.
• 16:27
  Tina: I'm excited for that.
• 16:27
  Tina: And I'm going to report back on all the awesome cool things that
• 16:30
  Madeleine: That I did that.
• 16:31
  Madeleine: Great.
• 16:31
  Madeleine: We'll put all those links to that
• 16:33
  Tina: in the show
• 16:33
  Madeleine: notes as well for people, if they're interested in, and if they are attending in person, just reach out to Tina as well.
• 16:39
  Madeleine: And she'd love to come and find me.
• 16:41
  Madeleine: Yeah, somehow
• 16:45
  Tina: we should probably wrap it up there.
• 16:46
  Tina: We will continue going because I do have heaps of so many other questions, but.
• 16:49
  Tina: For next time.
• 16:51
  Madeleine: Next time.
• 16:52
  Madeleine: Thanks for the chat, Tina.
• 16:53
  Madeleine: Thank you.
• 16:54
  Madeleine: Bye.
• 16:56
  Madeleine: Ali Parker is a Japanese Australian author and screenwriter who lives on the stolen lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation.
• 17:04
  Madeleine: She has written episodes of Jack Irish, Secret Bridesmaids Business and Miss Fisher's Modern Murder Mysteries and worked in the script departments of Irreverent Sunshine and Please Like Me.
• 17:14
  Madeleine: In 2023, Alli's debut historical fiction novel, At the Foot of the Cherry Tree, was published by HarperCollins Australia, a novelization of the true story of Australia's first Japanese war bride and Alli's grandmother.
• 17:28
  Madeleine: It became an instant bestseller and was shortlisted for DIMMICS's Book of the Year 2023, longlisted for the AusIndie Book Awards in 2024, and shortlisted for the Matt Richell Award for New Writer of the Year in the Australian Book Industry Awards this year.
• 17:44
  Madeleine: What an incredible debut, Ali is so generous in this discussion.
• 17:49
  Madeleine: So get ready to take lots of notes as we discuss how to write your family story, craft an author brand and cherish your local bookstores.
• 17:58
  Madeleine: Ali Parker, welcome to the book deal podcast.
• 18:01
  Alli: Thank you so much for having me.
• 18:02
  Alli: I'm excited to be here.
• 18:03
  Madeleine: Oh, we're excited to have you.
• 18:05
  Madeleine: Um, and not only have you released your beautiful debut novel at the foot of the cherry tree, which you've got the lovely poster behind you.
• 18:12
  Madeleine: Um, but you know, highly competitive market as well, especially for debuts, your novel.
• 18:19
  Madeleine: Became a bestseller and garnered so much positive reception among readers and booksellers alike.
• 18:24
  Madeleine: So congratulations.
• 18:26
  Alli: Thank you.
• 18:26
  Alli: Yeah, it's a very special book to me.
• 18:28
  Alli: So it's really exciting that people have really received it so warmly and it's done really well.
• 18:33
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 18:33
  Madeleine: And so if you haven't read it already, highly encourage everyone listening to, to pick up a copy.
• 18:37
  Madeleine: Um, but before we dive into how we can become bestsellers, just like you, Ali, um, can you tell us a bit about your grandparent's story?
• 18:47
  Alli: Yeah, sure.
• 18:47
  Alli: So, At the Foot of the Cherry Tree is based on the story of my grandparents.
• 18:52
  Alli: It's about the first Japanese war bride to come out to Australia after World War II, who was my grandmother.
• 18:58
  Alli: And my grandparents actually met in post war occupied Japan.
• 19:02
  Alli: He was Australian, she was Japanese, and he was a, an ex enemy soldier helping with the occupation.
• 19:09
  Alli: And the two of them fell in love and he decided that he wanted to bring her back to Australia with him as his war bride as his service came to an end.
• 19:18
  Alli: And then he discovered that the white Australia policy wouldn't let her into the country because she was from a non white, non European background.
• 19:24
  Alli: So he came back to Australia and decided he was going to fight the government for the right to bring his family home.
• 19:31
  Alli: And that's basically the story of the book.
• 19:33
  Alli: It's also a very small section of my grandparents lives, but a very important one.
• 19:38
  Madeleine: Oh, Ali, I'm just getting shivers while you talk about it.
• 19:40
  Madeleine: I just, it's just such an incredible story.
• 19:43
  Madeleine: Um, do you, do you remember when you, the first moment when you learnt of the story and, or, or perhaps when you decided that you really wanted to tell their story?
• 19:52
  Alli: I don't have a, a moment where it was like a light bulb moment about the story itself.
• 19:59
  Alli: It was just something that I always knew growing up.
• 20:01
  Alli: We always knew that grandma was the first Japanese war bride to Australia.
• 20:05
  Alli: I think it took a long time for me to really appreciate what that meant though, because I think we, not that we talked about it casually, like it's something that my family are incredibly proud of, but it was just, It was just part of our family mythology.
• 20:20
  Alli: So it wasn't really anything that I was like, Oh, that's so interesting.
• 20:23
  Alli: I was just sort of like, when you're brought up with something, it just feels normal.
• 20:26
  Alli: And that was really what it was.
• 20:27
  Alli: It just felt normal.
• 20:29
  Alli: And then when I was about 11 years old, I read a book that had been written about my grandparents and it was published in the 1960s.
• 20:37
  Alli: And.
• 20:38
  Alli: I had already kind of figured out that I wanted to be a writer.
• 20:42
  Alli: Not that I knew how to do it cause I was 11 years old.
• 20:44
  Alli: Um, but I read this book and I finished the book and I just remember thinking, Oh, I could do a way better job.
• 20:52
  Alli: Those characters aren't anything like my grandparents.
• 20:55
  Alli: And so that was really the kind of moment where I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this, but I have to do it well.
• 21:03
  Alli: And I knew I only had one shot at it.
• 21:05
  Alli: So I spent a really long time figuring out how to write.
• 21:08
  Alli: And.
• 21:09
  Alli: Practicing, you know, like a lot of people, the best way you can become a better writer is just to write.
• 21:16
  Alli: And so, you know, I would write short stories and never finish them and come up with ideas for things and never finish them, but even the unfinished works teach you something and then you finally do get something finished.
• 21:25
  Alli: And I actually moved into screenwriting for a while.
• 21:29
  Alli: And that taught me a lot of things about story structure and character and dialogue particularly.
• 21:34
  Alli: And then, uh, yeah, I think it was around.
• 21:38
  Alli: 2018, uh, when I was actually working in Los Angeles at a production company for a little bit, and I was reading scripts like every day because they had come into the production company and I had to read them and do what's called coverage, which is basically read them, list out the strengths and weaknesses, and basically whether I would recommend that the executive pursue them or not.
• 22:02
  Alli: I was reading scripts.
• 22:04
  Alli: Like, I can read pretty quick.
• 22:05
  Alli: I'm a pretty fast reader.
• 22:07
  Alli: So I was reading multiple scripts a day sometimes.
• 22:09
  Alli: And what I found was that most of them were terrible.
• 22:12
  Madeleine: Just
• 22:12
  Alli: absolutely awful.
• 22:14
  Alli: And what that actually did for me though, I was like, I know I'm not the best writer in the world, but it's better than what I'm reading here.
• 22:25
  Alli: And this is on the desk of an executive in Hollywood.
• 22:28
  Alli: So what am I waiting for?
• 22:30
  Alli: Like, what, whose permission am I waiting for to write grandma and grandpa's story?
• 22:34
  Alli: That's what And that was kind of it.
• 22:37
  Alli: I, uh, I started doing research then while I was in Los Angeles, which is pretty difficult trying to research Australian history in America.
• 22:44
  Alli: Yeah, for sure.
• 22:46
  Alli: But that was the start of it and it, you know, it started life as a screenplay and then I adapted the screenplay into a manuscript.
• 22:52
  Alli: And then, you know, easy as it just comes becomes a, you know, that's the pathway.
• 22:59
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 22:59
  Madeleine: Everybody, everyone, that's all you have to do.
• 23:02
  Madeleine: So let's just take a step back then I've got, I just want to interrogate some of this cause it's so interesting that pathway.
• 23:08
  Madeleine: Um, so talking about the research, how, I'm really interested to know in how, in that craft, I suppose,'cause I think there is a craft to doing the research.
• 23:18
  Madeleine: How do you know when you have enough research to go forth?
• 23:21
  Madeleine: Or are you constantly researching as you're writing?
• 23:25
  Alli: I'm constantly researching as I'm writing.
• 23:27
  Alli: I, at every stage, I'm always looking something up because.
• 23:32
  Alli: I think the thing as well, because I write, I suppose, more modern historical fiction in that this book is set during the forties and fifties.
• 23:39
  Alli: So there are still people around who lived through those times.
• 23:42
  Alli: And I did not live through those times.
• 23:43
  Alli: I am a lot younger than that.
• 23:45
  Alli: And so the detail becomes really important.
• 23:48
  Alli: And there's a lot of like just basic day to day living things that you take for granted.
• 23:52
  Alli: And you just assume that's always been the case.
• 23:54
  Alli: Like one of my favorite examples of this is I had someone come up to me and say, I had no idea that rice was difficult to get ever in Australia, because I, there's a mention that Gordon doesn't really know what rice is when he first gets to Japan.
• 24:10
  Alli: And that was true.
• 24:11
  Alli: And it's because really the only place back then in Australia, you could have rice was at a Chinese restaurant.
• 24:16
  Alli: And.
• 24:17
  Alli: Gordon was from a big family and that lived out in what was then the countryside is not no longer the countryside, but so they didn't often go to Chinese restaurants.
• 24:30
  Alli: And so he was unfamiliar with rice and people were just like, how could you ever be unfamiliar with rice?
• 24:34
  Alli: And it's like, well, we were colonized by the British.
• 24:36
  Alli: That wasn't part of the diet that was brought here from the colonizers.
• 24:41
  Alli: And, and, you know, it's just, it's a really interesting thing, just those little things that you don't think about, but.
• 24:46
  Alli: I'm constantly researching.
• 24:47
  Alli: I think what happens is I always start broad and then I get more and more niche.
• 24:52
  Alli: I niche down with every job.
• 24:55
  Alli: And, you know, I find too, that when I'm working on something, often things will just find me like, kind of like magic, it's almost like a attraction kind of a thing.
• 25:04
  Alli: And I'll just stumble across something and I'll be like, oh my God, that's so interesting.
• 25:08
  Alli: And then that sends me down a rabbit hole.
• 25:09
  Alli: I'm forever in rabbit holes.
• 25:11
  Alli: And so I think.
• 25:14
  Alli: That can be dangerous, though, too.
• 25:15
  Alli: Oh, completely, completely.
• 25:17
  Alli: Because then there's the balance of it, right?
• 25:19
  Alli: It's like you have to make sure that your research is detailed and correct, but you don't want to be info dumping just because you found this really interesting thing.
• 25:28
  Alli: Yes.
• 25:28
  Alli: I've certainly read historical fiction books that do that, where I'm just like, oh, you just did a lot of research and you just want to tell us about the history of refrigerators or whatever.
• 25:37
  Alli: And so, and I find that really boring, because I'm not interested in refrigerators, I'm interested in the main characters.
• 25:42
  Alli: Um, so.
• 25:43
  Alli: And so I think, yeah, there's a really fine balance, but I do think, yeah, researching at every stage and finding different kinds of research as well.
• 25:55
  Alli: So what I often do is I go through newspaper archives and often just flick through newspapers from the time that I'm in.
• 26:01
  Alli: So I get a sense of the kind of political world and, or just what the conversations are.
• 26:07
  Alli: at that time to color the conversations or just the background a little bit of my character's worlds.
• 26:14
  Alli: But then also reading biographies of people who were around at that time.
• 26:17
  Alli: I was really lucky with At the Foot of the Cherry Tree, because a lot of the men who served in the occupying force were actually writers themselves and journalists themselves.
• 26:28
  Alli: So Not only, um, articles, but also biographies and memoir and also novels, which I thought was also really interesting to read and you just get such a clear sense of the attitudes, the kind of characters that were around them, the vernacular, which is also really important for historical fiction too.
• 26:48
  Alli: And so, yeah, I think starting broad and then niching down as you go is, is, well, that's how I do it.
• 26:52
  Alli: Anyway, that's.
• 26:54
  Alli: Certainly my approach.
• 26:55
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 26:55
  Madeleine: And I suppose also the fact that you're, um, telling your family story as well.
• 26:59
  Madeleine: You want to make sure that you're getting it right.
• 27:01
  Madeleine: I think there are a lot of, um, emerging writers out there who, uh, think you meant you, you phrased it family mythology, like the mythology, the story, they have a story that they want to tell.
• 27:10
  Madeleine: Do you have any advice about, about approaching that and how, um, because I guess that some of these stories can be, um, you know, bring up a lot of hurt and memories, um, for some of the family members as well.
• 27:21
  Madeleine: So how, how would you approach that?
• 27:23
  Alli: Totally.
• 27:24
  Alli: I, I was really aware that There were a lot of people attached to this story.
• 27:32
  Alli: It wasn't just me.
• 27:33
  Alli: It wasn't just me and my grandparents, it's my whole family.
• 27:35
  Alli: And so I didn't want to write a book that my family weren't proud of.
• 27:40
  Alli: And so I was really open about the fact that I was writing it.
• 27:46
  Alli: I spoke to lots of my aunts and uncles who are, you know, the son and sons and daughters of my grandparents.
• 27:53
  Alli: And, you know, a lot of them are really keen for it and they really wanted me to do it.
• 27:58
  Alli: And I was so excited when I told them that I had the deal and I told the book and, you know, it was great, but, you know, there was one who wasn't as excited and she was much more reserved and she was really apprehensive about the entire thing.
• 28:12
  Alli: And, but she never stopped me if she had said, no, I wouldn't have done it.
• 28:16
  Alli: But I think the thing with my family story particularly is that.
• 28:22
  Alli: If you go back through Newspaper Archive or Radio Archive, probably a couple of times a decade, you'll be able to find some kind of version of this story that's reported on somewhere, and I think for a really long time, so many journalists had told our story.
• 28:38
  Alli: That I feel like our family really felt like this was us taking our story back through me.
• 28:45
  Alli: And so I just tried to be really clear and I shared all the research that I found.
• 28:49
  Alli: So if I found archive video or footage or anything that I found, I sent a link, I set up a folder Dropbox folder, and I sent the link to the family.
• 28:57
  Alli: And anytime I found something new, I would let them know that there was something new to look at.
• 29:00
  Alli: And some of it, the footage they hadn't seen in some of that they haven't seen ever.
• 29:04
  Alli: Some of it they haven't seen in years.
• 29:06
  Alli: And so.
• 29:08
  Alli: I think including them in that way was really important, but if any of them had ever had an issue with it, I would have stopped, but I would have tried to explain to them and talk to them about how I approached it, but I think honoring the, I think it's just about respecting.
• 29:26
  Alli: It's about showing respect for it, because I think that was the problem.
• 29:31
  Alli: My aunt, who was a little bit more hesitant.
• 29:34
  Alli: She wanted it to be a documentary when it was a film version.
• 29:37
  Alli: So she wanted it to be nonfiction biography, kind of, but which I knew I couldn't create.
• 29:43
  Alli: I couldn't make something like that.
• 29:45
  Alli: It's not my background.
• 29:46
  Alli: I write fiction, but also I knew I didn't have the information that I needed to have to write something that could be held up as nonfiction.
• 29:55
  Alli: And so, and I mean, I also wanted to preserve the story of my grandparents and that was the other really important thing is like preserving a part of their legacy and I knew a novel would have much wider reach because, I mean, I don't know how many people would go into a bookstore and say, you know what I feel like reading today?
• 30:14
  Alli: A biography about the first Japanese war bride to ever come to Australia.
• 30:17
  Alli: I mean, I would,
• 30:18
  Madeleine: I would.
• 30:20
  Alli: Well, most people don't know the history.
• 30:22
  Alli: No, they don't.
• 30:23
  Alli: But if you compare it to walking into a bookstore, seeing a book with a beautiful cover that has cherry blossoms on it, like I've had so many people tell me that they've bought it for completely different reasons.
• 30:33
  Alli: Some people had just bought it because they saw the cherry blossoms and they love Japan.
• 30:36
  Alli: So they just bought it purely based on that.
• 30:38
  Alli: Other people have told me that, you know, they knew a member of my family back in the day and realized who it was, or they knew a Walbright or they knew something and, you know, there's all different reasons that people buy it.
• 30:48
  Alli: But I think if it was.
• 30:50
  Alli: in the biography section or the Australian history section of a bookstore becomes much harder to get that kind of a reach as well.
• 30:58
  Madeleine: And so on release day, I think it's, I think it's actually really wonderful that you brought your family along with you on the publication journey rather than just announcing it when it was released.
• 31:07
  Madeleine: What was the, have, have your family all read, read the book and has your aunt read it and what, what's her reception?
• 31:13
  Alli: Everyone's read it now.
• 31:14
  Alli: It's funny actually, because I didn't give it to anyone before.
• 31:18
  Alli: It was kind of had gone to print and then I kind of went, Oh, maybe I should have sent it to someone to check it, but it was too late.
• 31:27
  Alli: And so, I mean, it was fine.
• 31:29
  Alli: It had, there's been no issues, but you know, and they were all good enough to realize that it was, it was my version of the story as opposed to, you know, something that was totally, I stayed as accurate as I could, but they all gave it grace, which I really appreciated, but they've all read it.
• 31:48
  Alli: They all love it.
• 31:49
  Alli: Which is really amazing.
• 31:50
  Alli: They give it away as gifts routinely.
• 31:52
  Alli: I think every time I see any of my aunt or uncle, they have another stack and they're like, can you just sign these so we can give these away as presents?
• 31:58
  Alli: I'm like, yeah, sure.
• 31:59
  Alli: That's wonderful.
• 32:00
  Alli: Yeah, one of my aunts and uncles who lives in Queensland, I'm in Melbourne, they flew down for Christmas.
• 32:06
  Alli: I had two launches actually.
• 32:08
  Alli: So I had like the official launch where I invited my friends and family.
• 32:13
  Alli: Uh, and then two days later we had what I call a family and friends launch, which is where all of my aunts and uncles could invite all of their friends and family and anyone who knew the family was welcome to come along.
• 32:22
  Alli: And that was another huge, it was actually bigger than my own launch.
• 32:25
  Madeleine: Wow.
• 32:25
  Madeleine: How special though, to bring everyone together for that.
• 32:28
  Alli: Yeah.
• 32:28
  Alli: Yeah.
• 32:29
  Alli: And I, I mean, it was, Kind of incredible because completely unintentionally it ended up being on the anniversary of Hiroshima, which my grandmother survived and that was purely unintentional.
• 32:39
  Alli: It just happened to be the Sunday date.
• 32:41
  Alli: And, um, yeah, that was wild.
• 32:45
  Alli: But then, so my, my aunt and uncle flew down for that.
• 32:47
  Alli: And then they happened to be in Sydney when I was doing my Sydney events.
• 32:50
  Alli: So they came along to my Sydney events as well.
• 32:52
  Alli: And then I did an event in Brisbane and so they came on to that.
• 32:55
  Alli: So they're like, How many of your other aunts and uncles have come along to so many of your inventions?
• 32:59
  Alli: Like, I actually think you are probably behind my mom and dad.
• 33:03
  Alli: So yeah, now my favorite aunt and uncles.
• 33:05
  Alli: I hope none of them are my favorite.
• 33:08
  Alli: There's so many of them.
• 33:10
  Alli: They're all brilliant.
• 33:11
  Madeleine: It sounds like you've got a great big family.
• 33:13
  Madeleine: It's wonderful, Alli.
• 33:14
  Madeleine: Um, yeah.
• 33:15
  Madeleine: So talking now about the, the craft.
• 33:17
  Madeleine: So you, so obviously it's, um, so you're in LA, you're starting to research.
• 33:22
  Madeleine: The book.
• 33:23
  Madeleine: Um, I know this is then COVID's approaching around this time as well.
• 33:28
  Madeleine: Um, and so I, I'm assuming screenwriting, uh, it's probably difficult to get work during COVID too.
• 33:34
  Madeleine: Um, I guess what, what, so what steps do you, did you take to decide, okay, I'm going to start writing this novel.
• 33:40
  Madeleine: What, what's some of the practical things that you did?
• 33:44
  Alli: Yes.
• 33:45
  Alli: Well, yeah, it certainly was.
• 33:46
  Alli: And, and COVID was the thing that changed everything really.
• 33:50
  Alli: Because I had written three drafts of a screenplay, which I was happy with, and I was pitching it around, but because it was right at the start of COVID, it was, I was sort of pitching it around and like, kind of, I was having an initial discussion.
• 34:03
  Alli: Oh, so you wrote a screenplay?
• 34:05
  Alli: Yeah, I wrote a screenplay for it.
• 34:06
  Alli: Oh, okay.
• 34:06
  Alli: So that was the plan.
• 34:08
  Alli: So it was like 2018.
• 34:09
  Alli: Yeah.
• 34:10
  Alli: I was properly immersed in.
• 34:13
  Alli: Screenplay world.
• 34:15
  Alli: That was where I wanted to go.
• 34:16
  Alli: Had visions of winning an Oscar for Best Original Screenplay.
• 34:19
  Alli: All that good stuff.
• 34:21
  Alli: Uh, and so I came home, did all the research, started writing the script, wrote three drafts of the script.
• 34:25
  Alli: Wow.
• 34:26
  Alli: Uh, and then I had a, I did a, I did a Twitter thread about, My grandmother's experience at Hiroshima on the anniversary of Hiroshima, and then also then talked about her story with my grandfather, and that got a bit of traction.
• 34:43
  Alli: And I had a friend introduced me to a friend of his who worked at a production company, and they showed some early interest in it, and gave me some initial notes.
• 34:52
  Alli: Um, and so I did those notes and I sent it off and then COVID happened basically.
• 34:57
  Alli: And so, uh, I was just like, cool.
• 35:01
  Alli: And they were just like, we can't take on anything new because we don't know what's going to happen.
• 35:05
  Alli: And I was like, no worries.
• 35:05
  Alli: Like I get it.
• 35:06
  Alli: Like, I can't be mad about that.
• 35:09
  Alli: And so then I kept having that conversation with different producers and it kept being the same thing, but all of them were saying to me, do you have anything based on existing IP?
• 35:20
  Alli: Because everyone wants something with a preexisting audience.
• 35:24
  Alli: Everyone wants something based on an awful book or an article or a story or something.
• 35:28
  Alli: And I was like, okay, I think I have two parts here, which is I can keep going with the film version and try and get the film up.
• 35:36
  Alli: And that'll take me 10 years or I have no work right now.
• 35:43
  Alli: I have nothing.
• 35:43
  Alli: I'm literally in my lockdown depression bubble watching I don't know.
• 35:49
  Alli: I think it was just like Masterchef and bad reality TV.
• 35:52
  Alli: Masterchef is good reality TV, but other bad reality TV.
• 35:56
  Alli: And I was just like, and I'm always complaining that I don't have the time to write.
• 36:00
  Alli: And now you have nothing but time.
• 36:02
  Alli: So what if we actually pivot and we make this the book?
• 36:07
  Alli: Then we create the IP and then someone options the book to make it into a movie.
• 36:12
  Madeleine: And
• 36:14
  Alli: so I was like, okay, let's just try it.
• 36:16
  Madeleine: You, you have a strategic plan, Ali.
• 36:19
  Madeleine: I love that.
• 36:19
  Madeleine: You've got this whole strategic outlook.
• 36:23
  Alli: Honestly, like it's, it's so important because.
• 36:27
  Alli: A lot of authors really think that it's just, I write the book and then the publisher does all the work.
• 36:31
  Alli: It's not that.
• 36:32
  Alli: You have to be a business person as well as an author.
• 36:35
  Alli: Like it's, it is a business.
• 36:37
  Alli: It is an industry and publishing is like, it can be so cruel as well.
• 36:41
  Alli: And I think that's the thing is a lot of authors are just like, I did the hard bit.
• 36:47
  Alli: The hard bit is writing the book.
• 36:49
  Alli: The hard bit is writing the book, but the hard bit is also selling the book because you are part of the brand and that becomes your brand and you have to do whatever you can.
• 36:57
  Alli: And there are things that I did deliberately to build that before the book even came out.
• 37:02
  Alli: But I will stay on one tangent, one tangent.
• 37:07
  Alli: And so basically I.
• 37:10
  Alli: It had been years since I wrote prose.
• 37:12
  Alli: I really hadn't written much prose since I was like a teenager really.
• 37:16
  Alli: And so I decided that I would go and do some like creative writing online classes and just, just try and figure out how to write prose.
• 37:25
  Alli: But what I found, which was really difficult, is that I was, a beginner author, but not a beginner writer.
• 37:32
  Alli: So a lot of those beginner classes, they talk about developing character and story structure.
• 37:37
  Alli: And I knew all of that already.
• 37:38
  Alli: That's not what I needed.
• 37:39
  Alli: I needed something that was much more like sentence level craft and how to tackle something, you know, something that can be a half a page in a screenplay.
• 37:49
  Alli: It can be four pages in a novel because you have that character interiority.
• 37:53
  Alli: And so that was the real challenge for me was to figure that out.
• 37:58
  Alli: And I had.
• 38:00
  Alli: a really solid foundation because I had the screenplay and so the book, well, the first draft of the book was essentially just pulling those scenes from the screenplay and going, this is, I guess, what a novel version of this would look like.
• 38:13
  Alli: And so I, um, actually signed up for a write your novel in six months course just to give me Some structure, and I knew that if I ever then got stuck, I could ask for help, basically.
• 38:27
  Alli: And that's really what happened.
• 38:29
  Alli: I ended up writing the novel in six months, the first draft of the novel in six months.
• 38:32
  Alli: And then the irony was, is that by that point, when I was writing the book, I was back working.
• 38:39
  Alli: So I was working on a TV show.
• 38:42
  Alli: I was working, in Queensland.
• 38:45
  Alli: It was shooting in Queensland.
• 38:45
  Alli: So I was, I was away.
• 38:46
  Alli: I was out of home.
• 38:47
  Alli: I had only work colleagues there as friends.
• 38:50
  Alli: And if you're working really intensely with work colleagues, you don't want to see them seven days a week, five days is a lot.
• 38:55
  Alli: Seven is too much.
• 38:57
  Alli: And we were literally on in paradise.
• 39:00
  Alli: Like we were up in Far North Queensland on a beach.
• 39:02
  Alli: And so I would just spend my weekends.
• 39:04
  Alli: I would do, I didn't even have to clean my house.
• 39:06
  Alli: Because, like, all the accommodation is paid for and they came in and cleaned every week anyway.
• 39:11
  Alli: It's like the dream.
• 39:12
  Alli: Seriously, it's like the most perfect registry.
• 39:14
  Alli: I'd work my arse off five days a week and then on the weekends I would just have two full days with beautiful weather and, you know, And if I ever got stuck, I'd just be like, let's just go for a walk on the beach.
• 39:25
  Alli: I'd walk two minutes down to the beach.
• 39:27
  Alli: And then I would just go for a walk, listen to some music, literally dance on the beach because, uh, I mean, there were people around, but I didn't really care.
• 39:34
  Alli: I was just, I'd come from two years of lockdowns in Melbourne and I was just like, I'm dancing on this beach.
• 39:39
  Alli: And then I would go home and I would just lock in and I would just write.
• 39:43
  Alli: And so that made it really, really easy.
• 39:46
  Alli: And yeah.
• 39:47
  Alli: And then once I finished it, I was like, I.
• 39:49
  Alli: I don't know.
• 39:50
  Alli: What do I, what do I do now?
• 39:51
  Alli: I have a manuscript.
• 39:52
  Alli: I don't know what to do with this.
• 39:54
  Madeleine: So this now you'll write the novel course was with, uh, Australian Writers Centre.
• 39:57
  Madeleine: Is that, is that correct?
• 39:58
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 39:59
  Madeleine: Now I've heard a rumor that, uh, there was a retweet on a platform that we shall not name that you did that helped you get your book deal.
• 40:07
  Madeleine: Is that true or false?
• 40:09
  Alli: That is true.
• 40:11
  Alli: That is true.
• 40:12
  Alli: Sorry.
• 40:13
  Alli: Basically what happened was, as I got toward the end of the novel, I, or the end of the manuscript, I was like, I have no idea about publishing.
• 40:23
  Alli: Like, I had a bit of an idea, but not really.
• 40:25
  Alli: I hadn't been as in the publishing industry as I had been in the film industry, and the way that I had previously built up My film and television connections had been through Twitter.
• 40:37
  Alli: And so I was like, let's just do that.
• 40:40
  Alli: Let's just find publishers, editors, authors to follow and learn what the cadence of the industry is, whether that's pitching sessions, whether that's, you know, like Q and A's with publishers, just figure out what the actual landscape looks like through Twitter.
• 40:56
  Alli: And so.
• 40:58
  Alli: I did that and I did a big kind of follow spray of just a whole bunch of people.
• 41:02
  Alli: I was basically just like pouring through and finding the way that people mentioned other people.
• 41:06
  Alli: And I just follow these little kind of trails and webs of, of usernames and just followed everyone that I could.
• 41:12
  Alli: And what I found was because I had screenwriting credits, a lot of people followed me back.
• 41:19
  Alli: And so one of the people that I followed was Catherine Milne from HarperCollins, who's the head of fiction there.
• 41:23
  Alli: And she followed me back for reasons I don't know.
• 41:26
  Madeleine: It would have been exciting when that popped up though.
• 41:29
  Alli: Oh yeah, I was, I don't even think I really noticed.
• 41:32
  Alli: Um, but yeah, so basically what happened was I, there's a couple of steps here.
• 41:42
  Madeleine: Tell us all the, I want detail.
• 41:43
  Madeleine: Like this is very exciting in an author's life.
• 41:47
  Alli: So basically I finished the draft of Cherry Tree, the first draft of Cherry Tree on like the 29th of December, 2021.
• 41:57
  Alli: Is that right?
• 41:57
  Alli: Yeah, 2021.
• 41:58
  Alli: And I It was just like, I don't really know what I do now, but the thing that I did know was a really close friend of mine who I was working on a TV show with, and we were on this Christmas hiatus, so everyone was on holidays.
• 42:13
  Alli: And I knew that his wife was an author.
• 42:17
  Alli: She wrote nonfiction.
• 42:19
  Alli: She writes nonfiction, still writes nonfiction.
• 42:22
  Alli: And so, I was like, and we had been talking about the book because he knew about the story of my grandparents.
• 42:28
  Alli: He's one of the only people I've ever met who knew the story about my grandparents without me having to tell them, which is wild, but we're really good, really good friends.
• 42:35
  Alli: And, um, So I had mentioned that to him and I was trying to figure out how to move forward and how to sell the book.
• 42:45
  Alli: I didn't know how to get in touch with publishers.
• 42:47
  Alli: I didn't know how to do any of that.
• 42:49
  Alli: And so obviously people talk about agents a lot with authors, authors, you get an agent, the agent sells your book, et cetera, et cetera.
• 42:57
  Alli: So I was like, okay, let's do some research into agents in Australia.
• 42:59
  Alli: And so, I looked up a couple of different agencies and Curtis Brown, they open for unsolicited submissions, a couple of times a year.
• 43:09
  Alli: Which means that you can just send it in and you get put on what's called the slush pile, but someone has to read it and they have to get back to you.
• 43:16
  Alli: They are obligated to do that.
• 43:17
  Alli: And so it was like, okay, great.
• 43:19
  Alli: I might do that.
• 43:20
  Alli: The next opening is in February.
• 43:22
  Alli: So it's like the end of December started January.
• 43:25
  Alli: I've got a month to kind of punch up the manuscript and get it ready for that submission window in February.
• 43:31
  Alli: So I'm going to do that.
• 43:33
  Alli: And something that I have been taught from working in screen is with networking, you always want to address your query to someone specific.
• 43:41
  Alli: And so I was like, okay, let's have a look and see who's, which agents are at Curtis Brown.
• 43:47
  Alli: And so I was reading through their, the agents and their client list.
• 43:52
  Alli: And I noticed that on one particular agent who had a whole bunch of authors that I really admire, to be fair, Curtis Brown's client list is stacked.
• 44:02
  Alli: Uh, I noticed a name that I recognized and it was the wife of my friend.
• 44:08
  Alli: And I was like, Oh, okay.
• 44:10
  Alli: I wonder if I can speak to him about.
• 44:12
  Alli: Maybe chatting to his wife about how she got representation and doing all that.
• 44:17
  Alli: And so then he actually called me a few days later to wish me Happy New Year, Merry Christmas, because he's a very nice man.
• 44:23
  Alli: And so we were chatting and I said, Oh, by the way, I finished the book.
• 44:27
  Alli: And he's like, Oh, great.
• 44:28
  Alli: What are you going to, what are you going to do now?
• 44:30
  Alli: And I was like, I was thinking about trying to find an agent.
• 44:34
  Alli: I was looking Curtis Brown has a window that opens in February and I thought I'd submitted into that.
• 44:40
  Alli: And he said, Oh, pretty sure my wife is represented by Curtis Brown.
• 44:45
  Alli: I went, Oh, is she such a weird coincidence.
• 44:50
  Alli: I mean, because it was a weird coincidence.
• 44:53
  Alli: You know, if she has, if she has any advice on submitting, like, I'd love to hear it.
• 44:58
  Madeleine: And
• 44:59
  Alli: then we didn't speak about it for like three weeks.
• 45:02
  Alli: We got back to work.
• 45:03
  Alli: We started working again and I didn't want to push because it's like, it's a big favor and it's not just of him.
• 45:08
  Alli: It's like of him asking his wife a favor on my behalf.
• 45:11
  Alli: And I was like, I don't want to.
• 45:13
  Alli: step on any toes.
• 45:14
  Alli: But then February was starting to come up pretty quick and I'd done no work on the manuscript and I was just like, I've really, I've got to have this conversation because he's definitely forgotten.
• 45:24
  Alli: He's either forgotten to ask his wife or he's forgotten to tell me the result of the conversation with his wife.
• 45:29
  Alli: And so anyway, so then we were Working and talking about something else.
• 45:33
  Alli: And then I said, Oh, by the way, did you ever chat to your wife about Curtis Brown?
• 45:37
  Alli: He's like, Oh, I forgot, but I will talk to her about it tonight.
• 45:40
  Alli: And then the next day I got an email from him going, she's really keen to help.
• 45:44
  Alli: She wants to introduce you to her agent.
• 45:46
  Alli: Oh, she doesn't need to introduce me.
• 45:49
  Alli: Doesn't need to introduce me.
• 45:49
  Alli: Like, I'm just happy to have a conversation.
• 45:51
  Alli: But then 15 seconds after he sent that email, she emailed me and was like, I'm so excited that you're doing this.
• 45:57
  Alli: I cannot stop thinking about it.
• 45:58
  Alli: I've already emailed my agent.
• 46:00
  Alli: Like, like, let's get this going.
• 46:01
  Alli: Like, and she was so excited about it because she too knew the story of my grandparents.
• 46:06
  Alli: And so she was all for helping me connect in any way that she possibly could.
• 46:11
  Alli: And I was just like, Oh my God, this is.
• 46:13
  Alli: Amazing.
• 46:14
  Alli: And so she sent off an email to her agent and they had a quick chat about it.
• 46:19
  Alli: And so then I got an email, maybe a few hours later from her agent saying, Oh, I'd love to chat to you about your manuscript and getting it into the literary world.
• 46:30
  Alli: Have you got a time for a meeting?
• 46:32
  Alli: I can meet you in Brunswick.
• 46:33
  Alli: And I was like, I'm on the Gold Coast.
• 46:37
  Alli: Uh, anyway, uh, and
• 46:39
  Madeleine: then, um, so you've just bypassed the slush file completely, which is amazing.
• 46:44
  Madeleine: Cause that, well, well,
• 46:47
  Alli: that's also the story.
• 46:49
  Alli: So, um, I basically then get an email from his, his wife again the next day.
• 46:54
  Alli: And she says, I can't stop thinking about, I can't stop thinking about this.
• 46:57
  Alli: I just, it's so exciting.
• 47:00
  Alli: I would really love to introduce you to one of my publishers.
• 47:03
  Alli: If you want, she had to publish to choose from HarperCollins or redacted.
• 47:08
  Alli: And I said, I'll go HarperCollins.
• 47:11
  Alli: If I had had a vision board for this book, HarperCollins would have been the publisher on the board.
• 47:17
  Alli: And so she had a conversation with.
• 47:19
  Alli: Catherine about it.
• 47:22
  Alli: And I was, and Catherine was really interested.
• 47:24
  Alli: And I said, great, what do we do now?
• 47:25
  Alli: And she goes, get your agent sorted first and then she'll deal with Catherine.
• 47:28
  Alli: I was like, great.
• 47:30
  Alli: Meanwhile, the, I don't hear from that agent.
• 47:34
  Alli: So I reply saying I'm on the gold coast, but like I can do a zoom call.
• 47:39
  Alli: That's fine.
• 47:40
  Alli: And she doesn't reply.
• 47:41
  Alli: And I'm just like, is it because I said the gold curse?
• 47:43
  Alli: Like I'm from Melbourne originally, like what's this Queensland slander?
• 47:47
  Alli: And anyway, uh,
• 47:49
  Madeleine: how many times were you checking your emails over that period?
• 47:52
  Alli: I was, there was a girl who worked next to me in the office and like this period of time over the course of about four, four weeks, maybe what all of this stuff was just happening.
• 48:01
  Alli: I just kept going, she's like, what's happened now with the book?
• 48:05
  Alli: She's like the way that you gasp, it's always the same, but basically, What I didn't realize was happening for the agent that I was speaking to is that her mom was very, very ill.
• 48:16
  Alli: And so she wasn't really getting back to emails.
• 48:18
  Alli: It wasn't a priority.
• 48:20
  Alli: So I didn't know this though.
• 48:21
  Alli: I just thought I was getting ghosted.
• 48:22
  Alli: And so basically nothing was happening.
• 48:25
  Alli: And I was like sending polite follow up emails going, just wondering if you had a chance to chat this week or whatever.
• 48:30
  Alli: And I would just get no response.
• 48:33
  Alli: And then what happened was coming back to the Australian writer center.
• 48:37
  Alli: So as part of that, course, you submit your final three chapters as your final submission.
• 48:45
  Alli: And the tutor reads them, gives you feedback, does all of that stuff.
• 48:51
  Alli: And so my tutor read them and she tweeted about how much she loved it and how much the book had made her cry.
• 48:59
  Alli: And so I was like, and she didn't even tag me in it.
• 49:01
  Alli: It was one of those weird things where I just happened to log into Twitter and it was at the top of my feed.
• 49:05
  Alli: Thank God you saw that, Alli.
• 49:07
  Alli: Yeah.
• 49:08
  Alli: I was just like, Oh, that's so cool.
• 49:09
  Alli: Ah, this is great.
• 49:10
  Alli: I'll, uh, I'll take the praise or I can get it.
• 49:13
  Alli: And so I retweeted it.
• 49:15
  Alli: And I think I just added something like, you know, make writing to to cry tick for whatever.
• 49:21
  Alli: And then, you know, I just sent it off into the Twitter sphere and went back to work and, uh, And then a few hours later, I got a direct message from Catherine Milne, who I'd completely forgotten that I'd followed on Twitter and had followed me back, but she had seen my tweet.
• 49:38
  Alli: She obviously remembered the conversation that she'd had with my friend's wife.
• 49:42
  Alli: And then she just messaged me saying, your work in progress does sound very interesting.
• 49:46
  Alli: May I ask where you're at with your representation situation?
• 49:50
  Alli: And I was just like, Oh my God, Oh my God, what do I do in this scenario?
• 49:55
  Alli: How do you respond to that?
• 49:57
  Alli: Because the answer is the agent is ghosting me.
• 49:59
  Alli: So there is no update on my representation situation.
• 50:04
  Alli: Um, but yeah.
• 50:06
  Alli: So then, uh, I said to Catherine still getting things sorted with the agent, but would love to have a chat if you have some time.
• 50:14
  Alli: And so I sent her the first few chapters.
• 50:17
  Alli: I think maybe the first four chapters of Cherry Tree, and then she read them over the weekend, and we had a meeting on Monday, which is probably still, to this day, one of the best meetings I've ever had about my writing before.
• 50:26
  Alli: Like, I could just tell she totally got it.
• 50:28
  Alli: She understood it straight from the off, and you know, Catherine is very well respected in the industry for a reason.
• 50:34
  Alli: She knows what she's doing, and I felt that.
• 50:37
  Alli: And so then, It became a matter of chasing the agent to get the agent to respond, which she eventually did, and it was all fine.
• 50:46
  Alli: And we kind of got there at the end.
• 50:47
  Alli: Um, but yes, it, the, the, the website, which has now been ruined, unfortunately, uh, was actually instrumental in getting the book published.
• 50:58
  Madeleine: Amazing, amazing.
• 50:59
  Madeleine: What an incredible story, Alli.
• 51:00
  Madeleine: And um, yeah, I mean, it's a testament.
• 51:03
  Madeleine: It's not just Twitter that, that got your deal.
• 51:06
  Madeleine: It was all the work and hard effort that you put into the manuscript to get it to that stage where it was ready as well to go to Catherine.
• 51:11
  Madeleine: Cause sometimes it's hard to know when, when a manuscript is ready.
• 51:15
  Madeleine: So, um, Um, yeah, it's, um, amazing story.
• 51:18
  Madeleine: Um, so I think now it would be good to talk about that process.
• 51:23
  Madeleine: So after you've signed the deal, what Tina and I have been talking about on the book deal is that the hard work often comes next.
• 51:31
  Madeleine: So, so you've got this manuscript, you put in a lot of work, but then you've still got to go through a bit more of the process of getting it out into the world.
• 51:38
  Madeleine: So can you tell us a little bit about that experience?
• 51:41
  Alli: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:43
  Alli: I think we went through, we had one structural round, uh, and I think that was because the screenplay was pretty structurally strong and the novel does mimic what the screenplay was.
• 51:56
  Alli: The main difference between the novel and the screenplay is the alternating points of view.
• 52:01
  Alli: There's a lot more, like, because the chapters generally alternate between Gordon and Cherry, and there was a bit less of that in the film, as it was, uh, just because the main plot, I suppose, is really on Gordon's side of it, because he's fighting the government.
• 52:19
  Alli: Um, but it really just, the book allowed the space to open up Cherry's story more, and that was actually a lot of research that I, I sort of had to do into.
• 52:29
  Alli: That side of things, which I'd not really considered as much before, and I'm really glad to have done that because I think while Gordon is the plot, cherry is the emotional heart at the of the
• 52:38
  Madeleine: Cherry tree.
• 52:39
  Madeleine: Those, those scenes I think were so captivating in the novel.
• 52:42
  Madeleine: They were Totally, yeah.
• 52:44
  Alli: Yeah.
• 52:44
  Alli: I, I get a lot of people saying that she's their favorite character.
• 52:47
  Alli: Mm.
• 52:48
  Alli: Yeah.
• 52:49
  Alli: That's, it's, it means a lot, you know, she's a very special person, but, uh, yeah, but so I, I did a big.
• 52:57
  Alli: I did a big trim.
• 52:59
  Alli: And when I say a big trim, like I mean it.
• 53:01
  Alli: I think my first draft of Cherry Tree was around 98, 000 words and I cut 10, 000 words out of it.
• 53:07
  Alli: Before I sent it to Catherine and then we got the structures back and Catherine was like, I really like a scene like this.
• 53:14
  Alli: And I was like, Oh, I had that scene.
• 53:15
  Alli: I cut it out.
• 53:16
  Alli: I'll just put it back in, in a slightly different way.
• 53:18
  Alli: So now it fits again.
• 53:19
  Alli: And everything she was sort of requesting, most of it, I'd done a version of and had trimmed it out.
• 53:24
  Alli: And so I put it back in and she was like, don't worry about the word count, just write it and we'll fix the word count later.
• 53:29
  Alli: And so after my structures, my word count blew out to about 110, 000 words.
• 53:35
  Alli: Oh, that's quite significant.
• 53:36
  Alli: Yeah.
• 53:36
  Alli: Yeah.
• 53:37
  Alli: Yeah.
• 53:37
  Alli: Yeah.
• 53:38
  Alli: Because I think it's definitely better to just pack everything in and then you pull it out when you do your kind of line and copy at it.
• 53:45
  Madeleine: Oh, that's a relief for me, actually.
• 53:48
  Madeleine: I hear that.
• 53:50
  Alli: And actually what I found was then getting the word count down again, it wasn't actually cutting whole scenes out.
• 53:58
  Alli: It was just tidying up language and it's very humbling, very humbling doing a copy and line at it.
• 54:05
  Alli: Because I would read sentences and what something I did, which I would encourage every author to do is to read the book out loud to yourself.
• 54:16
  Alli: Because often reading things, it will feel normal and it will feel like an actual thing.
• 54:21
  Alli: But when you read it aloud, you're like, that doesn't resemble English in any way, shape or form.
• 54:27
  Alli: And so I found that.
• 54:31
  Alli: A lot of the trimming that we did to get the number back down again.
• 54:33
  Alli: And I, I feel like the book probably ended up at around a hundred thousand words in the end, but it was mostly just going, Oh, I've used seven words when three are actually fine.
• 54:46
  Alli: And it was just doing that a lot of the time, or just catching myself.
• 54:51
  Alli: I would say a line of description and then it would be in the dialogue that followed it.
• 54:56
  Alli: And so I'm like, you know, like George, open the door, George, open the door.
• 55:00
  Alli: It's just like, you don't need both, just take one.
• 55:03
  Alli: And it was just little trims like that, that actually really helped to bring the word count down again and actually just neaten everything up.
• 55:09
  Madeleine: Hmm.
• 55:09
  Madeleine: Yeah, for sure.
• 55:10
  Madeleine: I think, um, there's, there was some advice I heard about, um, every word has to work hard.
• 55:14
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 55:14
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 55:14
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 55:15
  Madeleine: To be there, which is a good way to be of course, in the initial drafting stage, go, go forth.
• 55:21
  Alli: Absolutely.
• 55:22
  Alli: And I think Catherine's advice was right, which is just don't worry about the word count, worry about the story, because then, you know, you have your structurals, then you have your copy edits.
• 55:30
  Alli: I kind of had my copy and line edits combined.
• 55:33
  Alli: They were sort of at the same time.
• 55:35
  Alli: And then we did a couple of rounds of proofs, um, which obviously then get into that really, really niggly little detail and then amazing things like.
• 55:44
  Alli: One of the editors is figuring out how much Gordon's wage would have been in, you know, 1950, because I'd made a passing reference to money and I had no idea.
• 55:55
  Alli: Um, and they were like, well, this is actually probably how much you would have earned.
• 55:58
  Alli: And I was like, thank you.
• 56:00
  Alli: That's brilliant.
• 56:01
  Alli: I love that you did that for me.
• 56:03
  Alli: And I didn't have to do math.
• 56:04
  Madeleine: Amazing.
• 56:06
  Alli: But yeah, just little things like that were really, really useful and really interesting as well.
• 56:11
  Madeleine: Um, I've heard a couple of authors say when, when they do read through their final product in their book, they go, Oh, I wish I could have changed this or do you ever feel that or are you, you read it and you go, Nope, this is good.
• 56:22
  Alli: Totally.
• 56:23
  Alli: No, there's like sections of the book that I read out regularly.
• 56:25
  Alli: Like, I have a few different sections that I have markers.
• 56:29
  Alli: It's like readings when I do an event.
• 56:31
  Alli: And sometimes I read, I'm like, oh, this need, this could be so much shorter.
• 56:36
  Alli: We should have just cut that.
• 56:36
  Alli: We don't need this line.
• 56:38
  Alli: This is why are we here?
• 56:39
  Alli: Why are we here?
• 56:39
  Alli: What are we doing here?
• 56:40
  Alli: We don't need to stay in this line.
• 56:42
  Alli: This is not the interesting bit, but you know, it's that thing.
• 56:44
  Alli: And you know, I'll read Cherry Tree in three years and I'll be like, Oh my God, I can't believe I ever published this.
• 56:49
  Alli: Because you grow and change as a writer.
• 56:52
  Alli: Because you grow and change as a person and your tastes change and the authors who influence you shift your own kind of writing voice as well.
• 57:01
  Alli: And so many things happen to shift the way that you approach, not only how you view your story, but like the themes of your story and different characters and you'll find things that work and things that don't.
• 57:14
  Alli: And it's all just about honing your instincts, how you, how you prime your instincts and I.
• 57:18
  Alli: I'm working on my second book at the moment and I'm definitely feeling like my instincts are a lot sharper with particularly writing prose, which I feel is one of my weaknesses in Cherry Tree is the actual sentence level craft.
• 57:30
  Alli: And I think, uh, in the next one, it's going to be a lot different, but also the characters are different.
• 57:37
  Alli: And so that's what's prompting this shift as well, which is a really interesting thing to think about too.
• 57:42
  Madeleine: Can you tell us a bit more about this second book?
• 57:45
  Madeleine: Are you allowed?
• 57:46
  Madeleine: I don't think
• 57:47
  Alli: so.
• 57:47
  Alli: It's historical.
• 57:48
  Alli: I think that's all I can say.
• 57:49
  Alli: Another historical.
• 57:51
  Alli: Um, it's not, it's not based on a true story, but it's inspired by Some things that have happened to me, but I'm just now putting them into a historical context.
• 57:59
  Alli: So I can deny that there is any resemblance to anyone.
• 58:02
  Alli: I know,
• 58:03
  Madeleine: I love it.
• 58:04
  Madeleine: I love it.
• 58:05
  Madeleine: Well, we're looking forward to seeing that.
• 58:07
  Madeleine: Um, so let's talk now.
• 58:09
  Madeleine: I really want to spend a little bit of time talking to you about Yeah.
• 58:12
  Madeleine: Your launch and what efforts you did as an author, because you spoke at the start about how it's up to us as authors to, to bring our books out into the world, to really advocate for our own books.
• 58:22
  Madeleine: Um, the publishers obviously have a role to a certain extent, but in the end, it does come down to, to us.
• 58:28
  Madeleine: Um, so what were some of the things that you did to prepare for your launch?
• 58:32
  Madeleine: Um, and, and what was the sort of reception that you got?
• 58:37
  Alli: I think the main thing that I did, even before I signed the deal, as I signed the deal in May, 2022.
• 58:45
  Alli: And in around April of that year.
• 58:49
  Alli: I realized I was going to need to get serious about social media because that was really when booktok had started properly influencing book buying and the industry and the publishers still don't know how to catch that wind.
• 59:10
  Alli: Like it's, it's still a very, very luck based because it's all based on algorithm, particularly, particularly on, on Tik TOK anyway.
• 59:18
  Alli: And so I was like, okay, and I'm not a big social media person.
• 59:21
  Alli: I never have been.
• 59:22
  Alli: I don't.
• 59:23
  Alli: Like putting my face on social media.
• 59:26
  Alli: I've always been very bad at Instagram.
• 59:28
  Alli: I maintain I'm still not very good at Instagram, but I was like, if I want this book to get into the hands of people who wouldn't usually be exposed to this book, I'm going to need to make myself part of the brand.
• 59:41
  Alli: And so I started a TikTok account and I, my early TikToks are awful.
• 59:48
  Alli: Like There, I did not know what I was doing, but I just started playing around and I had been scrolling on TikTok for a while.
• 59:56
  Alli: I had been watching things and I had kind of unintentionally fallen into BookTok because the algorithm gives you videos based on what you watch and what you like and what you interact with.
• 1:00:06
  Alli: And so I had had kind of fallen into BookTok and had used BookTok to find books.
• 1:00:13
  Alli: And so then I just started posting and.
• 1:00:16
  Alli: I, I started building relationships with people who were writers who were, who wanted to be published, who were readers, talking about the books that I liked.
• 1:00:28
  Alli: I had kind of mentioned that I was working on something, but I didn't give too many details away.
• 1:00:33
  Alli: And then I signed the deal and I couldn't tell anyone because it was still like unannounced.
• 1:00:42
  Alli: And that's the thing.
• 1:00:42
  Alli: There's so much that happens that you can't talk about until it's public.
• 1:00:45
  Alli: And when it's public, you've been living with it for like a year.
• 1:00:48
  Alli: And so I knew we were going to do an announcement, which I think was in November of 2022.
• 1:00:56
  Alli: And so as that started to get closer, I started to post some teasers of like.
• 1:01:01
  Alli: Oh, my agent told me that I got a full read from a dream publisher, even though I'd already signed the deal.
• 1:01:07
  Alli: But it was just like, they, they didn't know that.
• 1:01:09
  Alli: And it's, it's true.
• 1:01:11
  Alli: It was a true thing that happened.
• 1:01:12
  Alli: But then it was like, it had just happened back in March or May or whenever.
• 1:01:18
  Alli: And so I just started building, yeah, like relationships and a network, which is, I think basically what social media is, is it's just another way to make friends really.
• 1:01:32
  Alli: And so I.
• 1:01:36
  Alli: I very deliberately started doing that and I found very quickly that TikTok was the way that my material worked the best and for whatever reasons, can't take photos for Instagram to save my life, but TikTok, I felt a lot more comfortable in front of the camera quickly.
• 1:01:54
  Alli: It's actually a good testing ground as well because as an author, you have to film videos for.
• 1:02:00
  Alli: Like book buyers, like you, you film videos.
• 1:02:03
  Alli: I filmed videos for like Demux and Booktopia and Amazon and Audible and Apple.
• 1:02:07
  Alli: And, you know, you film these videos because it's part of selling your book.
• 1:02:11
  Alli: And so the more comfortable you are in front of your camera, talking to your little phone screen, the easier it is to film all of those things.
• 1:02:17
  Alli: You don't feel as cringy.
• 1:02:19
  Alli: And my, my content started doing like reasonably well when I just, when I made friends and I was just making videos, cause I knew that they would like them.
• 1:02:32
  Alli: As opposed to going, I want this to blow up and go viral.
• 1:02:34
  Alli: I'm like, I'm going to make a funny little video for my friend today, because I know I found this really funny and I know she will too, you know, and just things like that and not being afraid to be a dork.
• 1:02:44
  Alli: Like I'm a big dork on TikTok, but it makes it really endearing.
• 1:02:49
  Alli: And so then when I could announce the book.
• 1:02:52
  Alli: Everyone got so excited because I'm like, Oh my God, one of us, you know, she's, she's done it.
• 1:02:56
  Alli: She's done this thing that we've all wanted to do.
• 1:02:58
  Alli: And this is the thing.
• 1:02:58
  Alli: And I say it a lot on Tik TOK.
• 1:03:00
  Alli: It happens for lots of different people who have been creators on Tik TOK for a while who are writing.
• 1:03:05
  Alli: And then they have, and people go, my friend has got a book out.
• 1:03:08
  Alli: There is this kind of parasocial connection that you get through social media.
• 1:03:12
  Alli: And so that was a really deliberate thing I did, which actually worked really well for me.
• 1:03:17
  Alli: And.
• 1:03:18
  Alli: I actually had one of the marketing people at Harper say, we can actually say, TikTok made me buy it on your book.
• 1:03:25
  Madeleine: Yes, I did.
• 1:03:26
  Madeleine: I did remember that.
• 1:03:29
  Alli: And it's just like, but they can genuinely say that because I have been on TikTok and I've been talking about my book and the pre order numbers are healthy because of TikTok and all of that kind of thing.
• 1:03:39
  Alli: And, and.
• 1:03:40
  Alli: Lots of people wanted, they went out and bought the book because A, it's really pretty.
• 1:03:44
  Alli: But also, their friend wrote it and it gives them these kind of bragging rights, which is really fun as well.
• 1:03:52
  Alli: But that's not to say that you have to put your face on social media either.
• 1:03:55
  Alli: There are ways that you can be an author without it.
• 1:03:57
  Alli: For the content that I make, it's easier for me to do it and to be part of it.
• 1:04:03
  Alli: Because I feel like it gives people a stronger connection to me, but you don't have to do that.
• 1:04:07
  Alli: But that was definitely something that I was really aware of.
• 1:04:10
  Alli: And yeah, I, um, I just tried to engage people as much as I could and, and like we were talking about earlier, making my family part of it, but also talking about whatever I could to bring, you know, my TikTok friends along with me.
• 1:04:26
  Alli: And so one of the things that I did do, for example, when I got sent the book cover for the first time.
• 1:04:35
  Alli: I, I wasn't expecting it came out of absolutely nowhere and I was just like, I had a panic attack when I got the email because it's like, my God.
• 1:04:42
  Alli: Oh my God.
• 1:04:42
  Alli: Oh my God.
• 1:04:43
  Alli: Oh my God.
• 1:04:44
  Alli: What if I hate it?
• 1:04:44
  Alli: What if like, because you just don't want the cover to be bad.
• 1:04:48
  Alli: Right.
• 1:04:49
  Alli: And so I filmed it I filmed my reaction without showing the cover at all.
• 1:04:55
  Alli: And then I saved it for a month, because I knew that if I posted it too far out, it wouldn't be.
• 1:05:01
  Alli: Like no one would remember it.
• 1:05:03
  Alli: And so I waited until we were a little bit closer to me actually doing the cover reveal.
• 1:05:08
  Alli: And so I posted it and I, it's the only time I've ever posted a video of me sobbing on the internet because the book, the cover made me cry when I saw it for the first time and I fully did not expect to cry, but that video, everyone was like, Oh my God, I can't wait to see the cover.
• 1:05:23
  Alli: And so then, and then I posted about it again recently because I was talking about the cover on.
• 1:05:29
  Alli: TikTok and someone, and I said, I'll link the, the video below where I saw it for the first time.
• 1:05:35
  Alli: People, people commented on it again, going, I remember watching this.
• 1:05:39
  Alli: I remember wondering how beautiful your cover was going to be.
• 1:05:41
  Alli: And, you know, like it just, it's like, becomes a shared memory for people then because you're sharing these little moments with them.
• 1:05:48
  Alli: I think that's really important.
• 1:05:50
  Alli: And it's not easy because you can be like, I'm only getting 200 views again.
• 1:05:55
  Alli: But like 200 views.
• 1:05:58
  Alli: It's still a lot of people, like if you imagine 200 people in a room who've had access to your book, that's a lot of people.
• 1:06:04
  Alli: And I think, you know, if you have a core group of people who are going to be your cheerleaders, I think that's, that's the main thing that you can kind of find.
• 1:06:13
  Alli: And I've been lucky to find that from creators.
• 1:06:18
  Alli: I was going to say influencers, but a lot of them actually are quite small creators.
• 1:06:21
  Alli: They don't have a big following, but they have very fervent friends, like everyone is a friend.
• 1:06:28
  Alli: And so.
• 1:06:30
  Alli: You know, all it takes is one person to take it into a different group of people and then it spreads around there.
• 1:06:35
  Madeleine: And
• 1:06:35
  Alli: I think that's what book selling is like that it's, it's all ripples.
• 1:06:40
  Alli: You know, you as the author throw the rock into the river and the first ripple is like your family and friends.
• 1:06:45
  Alli: And then the next ripple is their family and friends and the next ripple is their family.
• 1:06:49
  Alli: And so it's just like, You've just got to make sure that your first ripple has as many people in it as you can get in it.
• 1:06:56
  Madeleine: Hmm.
• 1:06:57
  Madeleine: Uh, and I, yeah, I think that's, um, interesting and I think how, the way you've approached it, it sounds like you're describing it as you're, you're out there finding community rather than going out there with the sole aim of selling your novel.
• 1:07:09
  Madeleine: If you do sell more books.
• 1:07:11
  Madeleine: That's great.
• 1:07:11
  Madeleine: That's a, that's a bonus, but, but you're going out there to find your friends and a group of people who can share in that, in that journey and that success.
• 1:07:20
  Madeleine: Just talking as well about, um, book selling, um, and the importance of having, um, a connection with your local bookstore.
• 1:07:27
  Madeleine: So I saw the amazing connection that you have with your local bookstore.
• 1:07:32
  Madeleine: Can you talk a little bit about the importance of the relationship with booksellers, I suppose?
• 1:07:37
  Alli: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:07:38
  Alli: Booksellers are the front line for authors.
• 1:07:40
  Alli: They can sell your book to hundreds of people a day if they want to.
• 1:07:46
  Alli: And I was really, really lucky because I lucked out with my, my local store, the manager.
• 1:07:53
  Alli: We knew each other through Tik TOK.
• 1:07:55
  Alli: He had seen my Tik TOKs and that was how we started talking.
• 1:07:59
  Alli: And he started doing these events with authors.
• 1:08:02
  Alli: And so he would message me and be like, are you going to come to the event?
• 1:08:06
  Alli: And I was just like, well, yeah, I already have my ticket.
• 1:08:08
  Alli: Like, was I not first in line?
• 1:08:10
  Alli: Because not only is it an event that you're doing, but it's also one of a really good author friend of mine.
• 1:08:15
  Alli: And so we just started chatting and I would go in there and every time I went in, we'd have a chat and say hi.
• 1:08:20
  Alli: And And they backed the book completely in, like they were doing two events with me in my launch month.
• 1:08:28
  Alli: So they sold books that my friends and family launched, the big one.
• 1:08:31
  Alli: And they were also doing an event themselves as well.
• 1:08:35
  Alli: And they were like, we, I just so you know, we've ordered 200 copies of At the Cherry Tree.
• 1:08:41
  Alli: And I went, excuse me?
• 1:08:46
  Alli: And I was just like, what, what do you mean?
• 1:08:48
  Alli: What do you mean?
• 1:08:49
  Alli: You've, you've ordered 200 copies and he's like, yeah, I reckon, I reckon it's going to sell really well.
• 1:08:54
  Alli: And I was like, ah, thanks.
• 1:08:56
  Alli: Thank you for your optimism.
• 1:08:57
  Alli: But like, and he had, he had a really good relationship with the Harper Collins rep.
• 1:09:02
  Alli: So he got an early copy early.
• 1:09:04
  Alli: And so he was really part of, like, he started just placing it around the store.
• 1:09:09
  Alli: He put it.
• 1:09:10
  Alli: You know, there would be just little cherry tree things in different places and they got their copies early and so they did a full window of just cherry tree.
• 1:09:19
  Madeleine: How amazing as a debut seeing your full window wouldn't that just would have been amazing.
• 1:09:25
  Alli: And that's the thing like their window isn't small like it's a it's a real eye catcher and And, you know, and in return, I was encouraging everyone who was local to the area.
• 1:09:35
  Alli: I was like, go and pre order from this store, like go and pre order from this, this specific bookstore.
• 1:09:39
  Alli: I was encouraging people to do it at their local bookstore, this specific store, or, um, from any of like an independent bookstore and try and avoid Amazon and VW for obvious reasons.
• 1:09:52
  Alli: Um, but so as a result, like it was sort of a two way street.
• 1:09:56
  Alli: I was getting them sales and they were selling my books.
• 1:09:59
  Alli: But, like, they, at the Family and Friends launch, I think they brought 110 copies to sell and we sold every single one of them.
• 1:10:06
  Alli: And the book was the, something like, he did all these stats about it in that opening week and it was the fastest selling debut ever at that store.
• 1:10:18
  Alli: And, uh, you know, they'd sold more copies.
• 1:10:22
  Alli: Like it was just a ridiculous amount of stats.
• 1:10:24
  Alli: And he's like the previous biggest seller this year for a debut was Prince Harry's book spare and you've outsold him.
• 1:10:33
  Alli: And I was just like, beat
• 1:10:35
  Madeleine: the Prince.
• 1:10:35
  Madeleine: I love it.
• 1:10:38
  Alli: Well, that's it.
• 1:10:38
  Alli: And they kept their stock levels high and they put it in.
• 1:10:41
  Alli: Like the key points in the store where like people walk in and, you know, they, they made sure it had good placement because we were friends.
• 1:10:49
  Alli: And so they wanted to do my book a solid and it was selling.
• 1:10:54
  Alli: That was the other thing is if it hadn't been selling, they would have shifted it, but they kept selling it.
• 1:11:00
  Alli: And all the booksellers there, they all started to get sort of attached to it because it was doing so well.
• 1:11:06
  Alli: And the manager was so such a fan of it.
• 1:11:09
  Alli: And so it just kind of trickled down through all of the booksellers.
• 1:11:11
  Alli: And.
• 1:11:12
  Alli: Because it's quite a broad book, it's a really easy book to sell.
• 1:11:15
  Alli: You can kind of sell it as a gift for anyone.
• 1:11:18
  Alli: Anyone can kind of read it.
• 1:11:19
  Alli: It's not, you know, particularly gendered or very specific.
• 1:11:24
  Alli: And so they found that it was just a really easy book to kind of be like, yeah, this is a great gift for your mom.
• 1:11:30
  Alli: This is a great gift for your grandma.
• 1:11:31
  Alli: This is a great gift for your daughter.
• 1:11:32
  Alli: This is a great gift for anyone who loves Japan.
• 1:11:35
  Alli: And so, because it was easy to sell, they just kept selling it.
• 1:11:38
  Alli: And like their sales figures at that one store are wild.
• 1:11:41
  Alli: And They're huge and it's because they properly backed it in and but it's also like that for lots of other bookstores like it's I've had other stores.
• 1:11:52
  Alli: There was there's a bookstore in Mansfield and my aunt lives out in Mansfield.
• 1:11:57
  Alli: And so they asked if we could do an event and it's like a three hour drive, but I was like, yeah, I'd love to do an event.
• 1:12:02
  Alli: Um, and.
• 1:12:03
  Alli: She routinely messages me and says it's selling really well.
• 1:12:06
  Alli: And she does, you know, like she'll do a post every month saying these were our top 10 sales of the month.
• 1:12:10
  Alli: And the book is consistently there because she's selling it because she feels like she has a connection to it.
• 1:12:16
  Alli: And I think that's the thing.
• 1:12:17
  Alli: It's like when I did my author visits, here's a, here's a tip.
• 1:12:20
  Alli: So you will do books, still visit when your book comes out.
• 1:12:24
  Alli: And I took little gifts.
• 1:12:25
  Alli: I took little, uh, I made some Oregon paper cranes.
• 1:12:30
  Alli: And so I gave them as gifts and a lot of them booksellers just immediately put it on, like stuck it on the register.
• 1:12:35
  Alli: And so I'll go into those stores again, and they'll still be sitting there.
• 1:12:38
  Alli: I'm like, I made that.
• 1:12:39
  Alli: That's lovely.
• 1:12:40
  Alli: My favorite crane.
• 1:12:41
  Alli: Yeah.
• 1:12:42
  Alli: It's just stuff to do, to do, to differentiate
• 1:12:44
  Madeleine: yourself, isn't it?
• 1:12:45
  Madeleine: And show, you know.
• 1:12:46
  Alli: Totally.
• 1:12:47
  Alli: And I know some people take like cookies or cupcakes and things like that.
• 1:12:51
  Alli: And I was planning to do that.
• 1:12:52
  Alli: But the problem was, is I kind of was like, Oh, I don't know about people's dietary requirements and origami crane.
• 1:12:57
  Alli: It's just like.
• 1:12:59
  Alli: There's no dietary requirements there, but, but cultivating relationships with bookstores is really, really important because it's, that's where you're going to get the most movement.
• 1:13:09
  Alli: If the book moves at a store, it will continue to shift and move and it will just consistently sell.
• 1:13:15
  Madeleine: And obviously it's approaching it in a genuine way as well, not going in just while the book's about to come out and saying, Hey, can you put it in the window?
• 1:13:22
  Madeleine: Because there's lots and lots of titles coming out
• 1:13:25
  Alli: all the time.
• 1:13:26
  Alli: Absolutely.
• 1:13:27
  Alli: And that's it.
• 1:13:28
  Alli: And it's becoming more and more competitive and, you know, the industry is shifting all the time.
• 1:13:32
  Alli: And so you really want to establish those relationships with people as much as you can and not be annoying and not be demanding, but just be like, Hey, let me know if I can, you know, drop off a copy or have you heard about, has, has our rep told you about this yet?
• 1:13:49
  Alli: Like what month are you in?
• 1:13:50
  Alli: Because that's the other thing is they're buying months.
• 1:13:51
  Alli: Yeah.
• 1:13:52
  Alli: That's so like, I know.
• 1:13:55
  Alli: I was talking to, um, a friend who works at Dimmick's head office and he's like, we just had a meeting for January.
• 1:14:01
  Alli: And I'm like, it's August, but they're that far in advance.
• 1:14:05
  Alli: And cause of course the stores have to order all their stock in.
• 1:14:08
  Alli: So they're all like months ahead.
• 1:14:10
  Alli: So most managers of stores are not thinking about the books that have just come out last week.
• 1:14:14
  Alli: They're thinking about the books that are coming out in three months time.
• 1:14:16
  Alli: So you want to make sure that you're, you know, you go in and you say hi.
• 1:14:21
  Alli: You know, you go to their events and, and be present because that was the other thing is, you know, I, I went to events at other stores and said hello to staff and all of that kind of a thing so that when it came around to me, they're like, Oh, we know.
• 1:14:32
  Alli: Yes, being part of that community, I think it's important.
• 1:14:35
  Alli: Absolutely.
• 1:14:36
  Madeleine: So, on books, can you recommend us a historical fiction book that you've been reading?
• 1:14:43
  Alli: Sure.
• 1:14:45
  Alli: I mean, this is a big question because I do read a lot of historical fiction, but my, my favorite historical fiction author is Sarah Waters.
• 1:14:53
  Alli: uh, who wrote Fingersmith and Tipping the Velvet and The Night Watch, and I think The Night Watch is probably my favorite book of hers, but I discovered her earlier this year and she's changed my life.
• 1:15:04
  Alli: But I um, I just love her back catalogue.
• 1:15:08
  Alli: Well, I'm making my way through her back catalogue, which unfortunately is only six books.
• 1:15:12
  Alli: So I'm having to slow myself down, so I don't run out, but I'm going to run out.
• 1:15:16
  Alli: Isn't it the best when you
• 1:15:17
  Madeleine: discover an author though, that you love, and then you realize, oh my goodness, they have a whole series that you can just go and dive into.
• 1:15:24
  Madeleine: Yeah,
• 1:15:25
  Alli: well, the irony is that I, I had seen, because the Fingersmith got adapted into a movie and I'd seen the movie years ago and it had been long enough that I hadn't, I didn't quite remember all the twists and turns, which is great.
• 1:15:39
  Alli: Cause you want to go into fingersmith as blind as possible, but I had bought like a copy of fingersmith secondhand on like a Facebook marketplace post or something, and I had been sitting on my shelf waiting for me to get to it for ages.
• 1:15:51
  Alli: And then I went into an op shop and I saw another one of her books at the op shop and I was like, oh, grab this because it's like three bucks.
• 1:15:58
  Alli: And then I was like, maybe this is actually a sign that I need to start reading Sarah Waters.
• 1:16:02
  Alli: And then I read Fingersmith and I was like, what have I been waiting for?
• 1:16:05
  Alli: Why was I wait?
• 1:16:06
  Alli: Why have I been sleeping on this for so long?
• 1:16:08
  Alli: Like, what is wrong with me?
• 1:16:10
  Alli: And yeah, it's just.
• 1:16:13
  Alli: It's now they're, they, they've become my, what I call my anchor books.
• 1:16:18
  Alli: So when I'm writing, I'm reading Sarah Waters.
• 1:16:21
  Alli: And if I get stuck, I read one of her books.
• 1:16:23
  Alli: I just flick open any one of her books and just go, Oh, okay, that's right.
• 1:16:27
  Alli: That's how you do words.
• 1:16:29
  Alli: I understand now.
• 1:16:30
  Alli: And that just helps to keep you anchored.
• 1:16:32
  Alli: Yeah, we were talking very quickly before.
• 1:16:35
  Madeleine: That, um, you know, it's, it's sometimes difficult to read books while you're doing your own writing and editing, but there must be then some that are, are those anchors and that can help you through that.
• 1:16:45
  Alli: Totally.
• 1:16:46
  Alli: Yeah, I've got to be really careful about what I read because if I read too much commercial fiction, my historical fiction becomes a bit more contemporary.
• 1:16:53
  Alli: And so.
• 1:16:54
  Alli: So yeah, I've got to be careful and I've got to, but I can't stay in stories that are too similar to my own because then I lose my own voice.
• 1:17:03
  Alli: So I really need something that just kind of inspires me and nudges me back in the right direction to my voice, especially.
• 1:17:11
  Alli: Cause sometimes when I'm writing, I can feel, I'm like, I'm just, I'm literally just typing words.
• 1:17:16
  Alli: He said, she said, he ran his hands through his hair.
• 1:17:20
  Alli: She swallowed.
• 1:17:21
  Alli: And I'm just like, Oh my God, nothing is happening.
• 1:17:23
  Alli: And it just feels really stodgy.
• 1:17:24
  Alli: And then when I, you know, I just like, okay, quick, quick palate cleanser.
• 1:17:28
  Alli: Let's pick a tabbed part of Sarah Waters.
• 1:17:31
  Alli: And I'll just read that one paragraph.
• 1:17:32
  Alli: I'm like, Oh, I hate that.
• 1:17:34
  Alli: You're so good at this, but actually, yes.
• 1:17:35
  Alli: Okay.
• 1:17:36
  Alli: Now I'm back and I can actually do prose again.
• 1:17:39
  Alli: So yeah, definitely Sarah Waters.
• 1:17:41
  Alli: Yeah.
• 1:17:41
  Madeleine: I love it.
• 1:17:42
  Madeleine: I think you need
• 1:17:43
  Alli: them.
• 1:17:44
  Madeleine: You do.
• 1:17:44
  Madeleine: No, I agree.
• 1:17:45
  Madeleine: I do think you need them.
• 1:17:47
  Madeleine: All right.
• 1:17:47
  Madeleine: So last question, Elliot.
• 1:17:48
  Madeleine: It's a question that we ask all our guests.
• 1:17:51
  Madeleine: Um, and you've already given us so many amazing tips, but what is your number one top tip for emerging writers?
• 1:17:58
  Madeleine: My
• 1:17:58
  Alli: number one top tip is just to write because that's the only way that any of the magic is possible is if you write.
• 1:18:07
  Alli: Everyone who has failed has given up, which is not to say that like you, if you fail, it means that you've given up.
• 1:18:16
  Alli: That's not right.
• 1:18:17
  Alli: But it's just like, if you keep going.
• 1:18:20
  Alli: You'll either be like, okay, I'm, I'm done.
• 1:18:22
  Alli: And I'm done with this, which is not different from giving up.
• 1:18:26
  Alli: That's, that's different from giving up.
• 1:18:27
  Alli: But if you actively stop yourself from doing something because you're scared or because you're like, this isn't good enough, if it's not good enough, edit it, that's what editing is for, that's, that's part of the process.
• 1:18:38
  Alli: Unfortunately, no one can write a perfect first draft as much as we like to delude ourselves that we can.
• 1:18:44
  Alli: Every step you take will make you better.
• 1:18:47
  Alli: And sometimes you need to take lots and lots and lots of steps to get a lot better.
• 1:18:52
  Alli: And sometimes you only need to take a few steps to get better, but if you stop taking those steps and you give up, you're never going to get better.
• 1:18:57
  Alli: So I think, just keep on going and back yourself.
• 1:19:04
  Alli: I think that's, that's the other thing is, because ultimately, you're going to be the one who fights for yourself the most.
• 1:19:10
  Alli: So back yourself, back your vision, believe in yourself and don't give up.
• 1:19:16
  Madeleine: Oh, Alli, this is the stuff that I just need to hear right now for myself.
• 1:19:19
  Madeleine: So thank you.
• 1:19:20
  Madeleine: This is wonderful.
• 1:19:21
  Madeleine: Really appreciate it coming onto the podcast.
• 1:19:23
  Madeleine: Thank you so much, Alli.
• 1:19:25
  Alli: You're
• 1:19:25
  Madeleine: so welcome.
• 1:19:26
  Madeleine: Thank you.
• 1:19:28
  Madeleine: We hope you enjoyed this episode of the book deal podcast.
• 1:19:31
  Madeleine: Please like follow or share this episode so we can encourage
• 1:19:34
  Tina: more aspiring authors.
• 1:19:35
  Tina: And if you have a question you'd like us to answer or ask our guests, please find us on Instagram at the book deal or email us at the book deal at outlook.
• 1:19:44
  Tina: com.