Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1043 - Forcing Kids to Apologise

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#1043 - Forcing Kids to Apologise · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.
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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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Speaker 2: once answers Now.
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Speaker 1: In season one of Parental Guidance, I created a bit
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Speaker 1: of a national controversy. There were national news articles written
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Speaker 1: in some of the online publications about one line in
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Speaker 1: particular that I shared.
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Speaker 2: Hudson, did you throw your throng at him?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: Can you look at him and apologize? Sure? As all right?
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Speaker 2: It doesn't make it better if both of you do
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Speaker 2: it to each other. All right, all right, let's go.
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Speaker 2: Come on.
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Speaker 1: I want to say something kind of provocative. Forcing children
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Speaker 1: to apologize is teaching children to lie. Controversy today, we're
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Speaker 1: talking about whether or not we should be making our
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Speaker 1: kids apologize when they do the wrong thing to ask
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Speaker 1: to their peers, to their siblings, or maybe they just
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Speaker 1: break something in the house they're really emotional about it.
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Speaker 1: Should we be making our kids apologize?
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Speaker 2: You asked this question. I go straight back to a
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Speaker 2: story that you've told multiple times that just so clearly
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Speaker 2: depicts this in action.
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Speaker 1: This is the one where I fought with my sister
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Speaker 1: in the kitchen. Yes, yes, all right, Shall I tell it?
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Speaker 2: Tell it?
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Speaker 1: I'm about fifteen years old, I've got a lot of
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Speaker 1: bad attitude. My sister is four years younger than me.
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Speaker 1: She's there for about eleven. In our home, we didn't
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Speaker 1: watch Neighbors or Home and Away or The Simpsons because
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Speaker 1: of all the bad attitude and the characters and the relationships.
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Speaker 2: I really didn't need any any extra.
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Speaker 1: I don't think it made any difference whether we watched
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Speaker 1: it or not. I had a bad relationship with my sister, okay,
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Speaker 1: and so we also didn't use words like stupid in
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Speaker 1: our house. That was the s word. And I got
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Speaker 1: really cranky with my sister in the kitchen one day
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Speaker 1: and I called her not just stupid, I called her
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Speaker 1: a stupid idiot, double whammy. So Mum heard it. She
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Speaker 1: was in the living room. She came into the kitchen said, justin,
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Speaker 1: we don't speak like that in this home. You need
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Speaker 1: to apologize to your sister. She literally forced an apology
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Speaker 1: out of her fifteen year old son, who had a
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Speaker 1: bad attitude. And so in apologizing to my sister for
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Speaker 1: calling her a stupid idiot, I literally said, fine, Karina,
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot.
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Speaker 2: It's really bad. I'm laughing, but it's just this is.
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Speaker 2: This is why I love this story when I think
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Speaker 2: about the times where I have been forced to make
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Speaker 2: an apology, whether it be by a real life enforcer
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Speaker 2: or my own internal enforcer. Yeah. Yeah. When I feel
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Speaker 2: like this is I'm supposed to do this, it leaves
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Speaker 2: me in a victim mentality because I've been done wrong
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Speaker 2: by This is not It's got nothing to do with me.
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Speaker 2: This is all about the other person. So all my
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Speaker 2: focus and energy is on what a stupid idiot in
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Speaker 2: your words, the other person is for hurting me or
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Speaker 2: doing wrong by me. Right, I don't learn anything through
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Speaker 2: the process because I'm not doing any internal thinking. I'm
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Speaker 2: not looking at how I might have contributed to this situation.
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Speaker 2: It is all about the other person. But on top
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Speaker 2: of that, if I'm being enforced by somebody else, not
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Speaker 2: only does it rupture my relationship with the person I'm
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Speaker 2: saying sorry too, because I don't believe that I'm sorry.
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Speaker 2: I'm not sorry, that's my fault, trouble, That's exactly right.
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Speaker 2: It ruptures my relationship with the person, and in this
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Speaker 2: case an adult in a child, it ruptures my relationship
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Speaker 2: with them. And on top of that that whole process
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Speaker 2: if I'm not a fifteen year old teenage boy with
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Speaker 2: heaps of attitude, and I'm more of a timid person.
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Speaker 2: What I learned through the process is that in order
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Speaker 2: to make life pleasant for everybody else, I need to
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Speaker 2: please other people.
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Speaker 1: I like the words that you use, the external enforcer
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Speaker 1: or the internal enforcer. I wasn't going to talk about
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Speaker 1: this to you use these phrases, but I want to
4:00
Speaker 1: go back to something that I wrote in the most
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Speaker 1: important paarenting book that I believe exists on the planet.
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Speaker 1: It's called The Parenting Revolution. I wrote it a couple
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Speaker 1: of years ago, and I just wish every parent could
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Speaker 1: read it. In that book, I talk about a motivation continuum,
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Speaker 1: and at the very shallow end of motivation. No one
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Speaker 1: wants to swim in shallow motivational waters, right You want
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Speaker 1: to be in a deep water where you have fun.
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Speaker 1: But a very shallow end is this thing called extrinsic motivation.
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Speaker 1: Extrinsic motivation is when you do something because somebody else
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Speaker 1: is making you do it, either because you're going to
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Speaker 1: get a reward or a punishment. So a forced apology
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Speaker 1: in that instance is literally an extrinsic enforcer. But you
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Speaker 1: also use the term internal enforcer. The next level of
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Speaker 1: motivation on this motivation continuum is called introjected motivation. Now,
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Speaker 1: I know I'm getting a bit sciency, but that's precisely
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Speaker 1: what's going on here. No one's making you apologize. You're
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Speaker 1: doing it because you feel like you have to. There's
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Speaker 1: an internal police officer who's sort of berating you. It's
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Speaker 1: your conscience. You've got to do it. You've got to
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Speaker 1: do it. But you're not there yet, morally or mentally
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Speaker 1: or psychologically. You're just not there. And so the apology
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Speaker 1: gets spat across the room. The apology does not come
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Speaker 1: across the sincere and neither you nor the person receiving
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Speaker 1: the apology feel like hugging at the end of this
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Speaker 1: and saying, oh, yeah, everything's all better now, So glad,
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Speaker 1: so glad I got the apology.
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Speaker 2: And while I sit in that space, though, what actually
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Speaker 2: happens is I feel more and more justified to be
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Speaker 2: angry and hurt.
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Speaker 1: Right right, And then of course, and they get the apology,
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Speaker 1: they get the apology that's been spat across the room,
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Speaker 1: and they think, hmm, I was right to do that
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Speaker 1: to them in the first place, because they're really that
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Speaker 1: sort of a person.
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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And so what happens is, instead of
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Speaker 2: me actually feeling soft and kind towards that person, my
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Speaker 2: anger and my resentment builds.
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Speaker 1: Okay, now I want to add some nuance here. I
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Speaker 1: think that we both sit on the same side of
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Speaker 1: the fence on this one. Forced apologies are generally ineffective. However,
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Speaker 1: I want to lean on some research and a little
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Speaker 1: bit of so I guess an alternative view. There's this
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Speaker 1: thing called theory of mind. I've talked about it a
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Speaker 1: lot on the podcast. It develops in children somewhere around
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Speaker 1: four or five or six. In fact, recent research suggests
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Speaker 1: that it might be later, it might be around seven
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Speaker 1: or even eight. And there is some research that shows
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Speaker 1: that when an under seven child receives an apology, regardless
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Speaker 1: of how they receive it, they're actually pretty good with it.
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Speaker 1: They're like, okay, good they apologize. Now, if the apology
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Speaker 1: is really explicitly forced, if it's a really unkind apology,
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Speaker 1: like you're one, yeah, then even under sevens don't tend
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Speaker 1: to take to them very well. But as a general rule,
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Speaker 1: if you haven't got theory of mind, that is, if
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Speaker 1: you're a parent of very young children and they do
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Speaker 1: the wrong thing, you could probably say you need to apologize,
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Speaker 1: and they will spit an apology out at their sibling
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Speaker 1: and everything will actually be okay. So I just want
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Speaker 1: to acknowledge that because the research there kids under seven
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Speaker 1: really do just want to hear sol. Whether it's a
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Speaker 1: prompted apology or whether it's a spontaneous apology, it is
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Speaker 1: usually going to help the relationship. As they develop more
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Speaker 1: cognitive capacity, from about the age of six or seven onwards,
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Speaker 1: those prompted apologies become less and less meaningful, particularly when
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Speaker 1: it's quite clear, quite obvious that this is not an
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Speaker 1: intrinsically motivated apology, that is, it's an introjected or an
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Speaker 1: externally prompted apology.
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Speaker 2: So then my question is, before the age of six,
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Speaker 2: should we be encouraging our kids to apologize.
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Speaker 1: So I'm going to just say no. I mean, I
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Speaker 1: think it's a pretty low stakes conversation. Honestly, when you're
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Speaker 1: talking about the younger kids, I really think it's low stakes.
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Speaker 1: If you want to, fine, do it, fine, fine if
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Speaker 1: you have to, but you're not setting yourself up for
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Speaker 1: success later because then you kind of get in this habit,
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Speaker 1: this pattern where you think this is the way it
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Speaker 1: should be. And as the kids do get older and
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Speaker 1: develop more cognitive capacity and complexity, the apologies become a
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Speaker 1: little bit more tricky and you don't know where to go.
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Speaker 1: So I just think with these things start early and
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Speaker 1: it gets easier.
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Speaker 2: As you're talking. I'm just thinking this through. Right, You've
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Speaker 2: got children, they're young, they don't harbor resentment the same
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Speaker 2: way we do, so asking there or encouraging them to apologize,
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Speaker 2: Like you said, it's low stakes, there's not the huge
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Speaker 2: amount in it. But as they get to that point
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Speaker 2: where you can start to see there's a sticking point,
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Speaker 2: isn't that the perfect time to then start to have
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Speaker 2: conversations around you know, in the past mummies asked you
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Speaker 2: to apologize. I can tell you're actually still really really
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Speaker 2: angry about this. What should we do?
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Speaker 1: This is when we move further into deeper motivational waters.
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Speaker 1: Along that motivational continuum that I write about in the
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Speaker 1: Parenting Revolution, we're moving into identified or integrated motivation. So
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Speaker 1: identified motivation is where you say, yeah, I can see
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Speaker 1: the value in it. Integrated is where you say, this
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Speaker 1: is pretty much who I am as a person. I'm
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Speaker 1: a person who wants to repair and make amends. See
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Speaker 1: this argument that we should be forcing our kids to apologize,
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Speaker 1: it's really a Number one, I'd say it's useless because
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Speaker 1: it promotes empty apologies. Number two, I'd say it's unnecessary
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Speaker 1: because there are better ways. But ultimately, why is the
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Speaker 1: child apologizing when it's under duress, where it's coerced apology.
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Speaker 1: They're apologizing because they want to escape punishment. That's really it.
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Speaker 1: It's an extrinsically motivated.
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Speaker 2: Apology, and goes back to my conversation around this desire
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Speaker 2: and need to people please.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but you know what, they're not developing. They're
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Speaker 1: not actually developing the empathy that we want them to develop,
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Speaker 1: mainly because of a lack of cognitive capacity, but also
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Speaker 1: because it's now being forced. They don't actually feel sorry.
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Speaker 2: But on top of that, I'm sorry, I'm cutting in.
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Speaker 2: But on top of that, they don't feel seen, hurd
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Speaker 2: or valued either. Because if you're enforcing me to say sorry,
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Speaker 2: you don't see the hurt, you don't see what's happened
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Speaker 2: to me, you don't understand what I'm going through. All
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Speaker 2: you see is that I've done something and it's hurt
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Speaker 2: that person, but you didn't see what happened that led
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Speaker 2: me to that, and therefore I feel invisible.
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Speaker 1: You said it before. It makes a victim of the
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Speaker 1: person who is the perpetrator. Yeah, big problem there. Ultimately,
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Speaker 1: when we do that, it stops them recognizing how their
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Speaker 1: actions are affecting others because now our actions are affecting them,
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Speaker 1: and it stops them from repairing. You see, effective repair,
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Speaker 1: true repair. Making amends is an active process, and it
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Speaker 1: works best when we're in that deeper end of the
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Speaker 1: motivation continuum. I think it's worth unpacking briefly why kids
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Speaker 1: don't want to apologize. What's your take on that?
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Speaker 2: If I'm apologizing for something, then I have to admit
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Speaker 2: that I'm wrong, And if I admit that I'm wrong,
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Speaker 2: then in my mind, I'm not a good person.
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Speaker 1: Right right, What I'm hearing you say is an apology
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Speaker 1: comes down to, in some ways, a level of personal pride.
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Speaker 1: For me to apologize means I have to acknowledge that
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Speaker 1: in that moment, I was not at my best, I
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Speaker 1: was not who I should be.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as a seven year old, I'm not thinking
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Speaker 2: that right Right? What I'm thinking is I'm trying so
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Speaker 2: hard to be a good person and now I'm getting
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Speaker 2: in trouble for it, and that clearly means I'm not
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Speaker 2: a good person.
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Speaker 1: I have three other reasons on top of your very
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Speaker 1: very clear and important reason. Number One, I'm still frustrated
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Speaker 1: at the other person. I'm just not ready to apologize
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Speaker 1: to them. They offended me, they upset me, or whatever
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Speaker 1: it is, I'm still upset about the thing. Number Two,
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Speaker 1: I might be embarrassed. Let's say I broke a window,
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Speaker 1: or I said the wrong thing to somebody it got
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Speaker 1: blurted out, or somebody took a screenshot of something that
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Speaker 1: they weren't supposed to take, like, I'm embarrassed about that.
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Speaker 1: And number three, I'm scared what happens if I apologize.
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Speaker 1: There's some research that shows that adults really really worry
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Speaker 1: about apologizing as well, because number one, they're worried about
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Speaker 1: their ramifications, and number two, they find it stressful because
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Speaker 1: they feel like it's going to be humiliating. So that
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Speaker 1: research shows that when they apologize, it's not nearly as
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Speaker 1: stressful or humiliating as they thought it would be, and
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Speaker 1: they get the relief of the apology, but of course
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Speaker 1: the apology has to be meant.
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Speaker 2: And if you round all of that out for me,
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Speaker 2: it comes back to this, we don't like to be uncomfortable.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
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Speaker 2: All of this is about being uncomfortable and getting used
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Speaker 2: to the feeling of being uncomfortable.
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Speaker 1: Which is kind of an argument for why you could
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Speaker 1: get your kids to apologize, right, because that discomfort it
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Speaker 1: helps them to tolerate the discomfort and also to feel
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Speaker 1: the relief. But I mean, being forgiven feels good assuming
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Speaker 1: you do get forgiveness. Sometimes the apology doesn't land quite
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Speaker 1: the way we want it to. The argument for apologizing
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Speaker 1: is forgiveness is nice. Kids can learn that frustration tolerance
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Speaker 1: and that discomfort tolerance, and they also do learn to
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Speaker 1: take responsibility. Although well, that's kind of an old school
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Speaker 1: argument I would argue against it. I don't think they
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Speaker 1: learn responsibility. I think they learn to be frightened of us.
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Speaker 1: But we do need to wrap this up. What are
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Speaker 1: we supposed to do when the kids do the wrong thing?
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Speaker 1: Must they apologize? Do we not do anything at all?
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Speaker 1: Do we give it space? How do we figure this out?
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Speaker 2: I think what's really important is that as we allow
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Speaker 2: our children the autonomy to work through these challenges. We
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Speaker 2: help them to recognize that sometimes time is needed, and
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Speaker 2: that in that space of time, the person who's been
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Speaker 2: hurt is able to let go of their anger and
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Speaker 2: their hurt, and the person who's done the hurt is
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Speaker 2: able to recognize the part that they're played in that hurt.
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Speaker 2: And when we enforce it, we actually cut the learning
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Speaker 2: process off. We don't give either person time to actually
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Speaker 2: work through that in a positive way. But it requires
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Speaker 2: a fair bit of scaffolding, especially in those early years.
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Speaker 1: We've got to be there to support them. Right, So
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Speaker 1: two things from me. Number one, we've got to model it.
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Speaker 1: We've got to actually show our kids how to sincerely
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Speaker 1: apologize when we get it wrong, either with one another
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Speaker 1: or with the kids themselves. A sincere apology has four components.
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Speaker 1: Number one, I'm sorry. Number two, because that's where we
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Speaker 1: say because I did this to you, So.
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Speaker 2: It's not because you did this which made me do this.
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Speaker 1: No. In fact, one of my sisters got really cranky
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Speaker 1: at one of our kids one time, and then she
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Speaker 1: realized she'd done the wrong thing and she apologized and
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Speaker 1: she said, I'm sorry, I got mad at you. But
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Speaker 1: if you hadn't done that, it wouldn't have happened. And
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Speaker 1: I'm like, no, that's not one an apology. No one
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Speaker 1: was forcing it. At least she said sorry, but it
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Speaker 1: was an ugly apology. So number one, I'm sorry, Number
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Speaker 1: two because I did this number three and it made
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Speaker 1: you feel that. In other words, I have reflected and
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Speaker 1: can see how my actions affected you. And then the
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Speaker 1: fourth and most important thing, will you forgive me? Oh gosh,
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Speaker 1: they're important words. That's how you know someone's really sincere
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Speaker 1: when they are so willing to be humbled that they
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Speaker 1: ask you to forgive them. They put the power of
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Speaker 1: the relationship in your hand. That is a profoundly good apology.
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Speaker 2: Over the years, we have used this structure and process
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Speaker 2: with our kids as we've made mistakes as parents, and
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Speaker 2: there's just something so beautiful when our kids recognize the
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Speaker 2: part they've played in a difficult situation and they come
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Speaker 2: and ask those words, will you forgive me? I just
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Speaker 2: I love that they're able to, through their own cognition
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Speaker 2: and introspection, recognize that they've done something that has ruptured
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Speaker 2: a relationship, and they're desirous to reconnect and make that right.
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Speaker 2: But it takes them seeing us be humble. This is
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Speaker 2: what it comes down to, the words humble, right, It's
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Speaker 2: letting go of our pride, it's letting go of the
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Speaker 2: acknowledgment that we're going to get it right all the time,
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Speaker 2: getting down to their level and saying I'm really sorry,
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Speaker 2: I got it wrong today and I know what made
15:57
Speaker 2: you feel sad.
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Speaker 1: Will you forgive it?
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Speaker 2: Will forgive me?
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Speaker 1: We could do with those four words a lot more
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Speaker 1: in the world right now. So that's number one. Where
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Speaker 1: there's been a rupture, there has to be repair, and
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Speaker 1: when we model it, especially with that framework, it makes
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Speaker 1: a big difference. The second thing, and you've emphasized this,
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Speaker 1: but I really want to put a great, big red
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Speaker 1: mark under this so that everyone remembers that giving kids
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Speaker 1: the opportunity to reflect on their actions with our gentle
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Speaker 1: support and involvement leads to much better apologies because our
16:25
Speaker 1: children do want good relationships with those around.
16:28
Speaker 2: Them and much better learning.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry if we went over time, but we hope
16:32
Speaker 1: we've been helpful here. Should you force your kids to apologize?
16:37
Speaker 1: The research is ambiguous. I say no, but they do
16:43
Speaker 1: need to learn to apologize. The happy families podcast is
16:47
Speaker 1: produced by Justin Ruhan from Bridge Media. We really hope
16:49
Speaker 1: this has been a helpful conversation for you in your home.
16:53
Speaker 1: If you would like more information about making your family happier,
16:55
Speaker 1: please check out Happy Families dot com dot you, where
16:57
Speaker 1: we have our brand new membership, including content for parents
17:01
Speaker 1: to work with their kids. It's called Felt Fostering Emotional
17:05
Speaker 1: Learning Together. It's amazing content, it's interactive, it's engaging, the
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Speaker 1: kids love it, and it's all available now as part
17:13
Speaker 1: of our Happy Families membership at happyfamilies dot com dot
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