Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: Diane Dimond broke the news of the Michael Jackson allegations - now she's taking us inside the trial she covered from Day One

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Killer Thriller Docu: Diane Dimond broke the news of the Michael Jackson allegations - now she's taking us inside the trial she covered from Day One · Legally Brunette

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu edition. So
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: few stories have captivated the public quite like the rise, fall,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and enduring legacy of Michael Jackson. From record breaking success
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: and global fame to criminal allegations, a highly publicized trial,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and a verdict that continues to divide public opinion, the
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: story remains one of the most debated chapters in entertainment history.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: So there is a new three part Netflix documentary, Michael
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Jackson The Verdict, and it revisits one of the most
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: controversial and closely watched celebrity trials in modern history. It's interesting, you, guys,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: that The Verdict has come out right around the same
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: time as Michael the movie has come out. And I've
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: seen both and they are very, very different. More than
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: twenty years after the allegations and nearly two decades after
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Michael Jackson was acquitted on all charges, questions surrounding the case,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: the trial, the media coverage, and Jackson's legacy continue to
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: spark debate around the world, whether you followed the case
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: in real time like I did, or know it only
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: through the headlines and documentaries. It's a story that raises
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: difficult questions about fame, media, justice, and public perception. So
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  Speaker 1: today we are talking to an investigative journalist. Her name
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: is Diane Diamond, and she spent years on this, you guys,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: including like early coverage. She was the first one to
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: cover Michael Jackson and sexual sexual abuse allegations, so she
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: uncovered them. She's written books on it. She's fascinating, she's interesting,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: and she knows more than almost anyone about all of this.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm excited to talk to her, and we're going
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: to bring her in. Hi, Diane, Hi, how are you.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I thank you so much for joining us here on
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Killer Thriller. We really appreciate it, my pleasure. I was
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: mesmerized by this documentary. I was spell bound, and I
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: see a lot of true crime, and maybe because I
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: feel like it all happened in my lifetime and I
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: was privy to, you know, the trial or the stardom.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: You know, a very strange thing with this particular documentary
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: because having been, you know, a kid who grew up
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: with not only Michael Jackson the entertainer, but Michael Jackson
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: who was accused of such horrific crimes. I just I
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: had so many different feelings about it and this was.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: It was very strange because it felt to me like
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: it sort of touched on all of them. And every
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: time I was convinced, and I'm sure that I know
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: that I'm not alone in this, but I was convinced
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: one way all of a sudden. Usually I was convinced
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the prosecution that they got him, the defense would swoop
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: in and everything turned around in a minute. It was
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: such a strange and I can only imagine what it
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: was like in person and live. And I'm sure I
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: don't know. Do you still think about it to this day?
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: But obviously you wrote a book on it, You've been
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: involved in a documentary, You're still thinking about it, But
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: does it haunt you?
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it amazes me actually that people are
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: still interested in the story that I broke in nineteen
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: ninety three and then again in two thousand and three
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: when there was a second boy. It's just been so
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: many years. But it was Michael Jackson, you know, everybody.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: That's what keeps it alive. Not what I did, not
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: the books I wrote, not you know any of that.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: It's his name and his celebrity and his music that
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: lives on and on. And yeah, to answer your question,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: It was bizarre in that courtroom every day. I mean,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: just to see him walk in and watch the jury,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: you know, drool over, Oh my god, there he is.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember when they were tapping. They were saying
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: that they were tapping their feet when they were watching
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: they were showing what was it.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: They were showing the documentary that started the whole criminal trial.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: The Martin b Cher Martin, and they were showing and
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: the jury was they were they were literally tapping their
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: feet to the music. Yes, yes, how did you How
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: did you become involved in this documentary? I mean, I please,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: don't do all misunderstand. I know you've been involved in
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: this from the very beginning. Did they come to you?
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: You find out it was that they were you tell me.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you. I was sort of like done with Michaels. Yeah, okay, Yes,
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  Speaker 2: I have a whole body of work on different topics
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: and different crime stories and different crime and justice issues.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I just another book come out last year on a
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: completely different topic, and I was really done with talking
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: about Michael Jackson. Except nobody ever explored the trial, and
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: there were no cameras in that courtroom, as you know,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: and so I had always been fascinated with people who'd
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: come up to me over the years and they'd say something,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: I'd think, but you weren't in the courtroom. And so
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: when this production company out of the UK came to
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: me and said we want to focus on the trial.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I had always wanted to put the trial on trial
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: because there were lots of things that happened in that
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: courtroom I don't think the public realized, and a lot
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: of things that were not allowed to be presented to
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  Speaker 2: the jury by the judge, and I just thought it
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: all needed explaining, and so that's really what got me.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: I sort of roped me back in to exploring this
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  Speaker 2: topic again.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you were such an integral part of
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: obviously of what happened with mikel and exposing you know,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: what was going on, but also just this documentary. I
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: can't it feels like it was as much about you
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: and your role in it as anyone.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I was kind of shocked by that. Actually, when I
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: sat at it, I thought, man, I knew that they
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: were here at my house interviewing me, looking at my files,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: looking at the evidence and my notebooks and whatnot for
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: four days, but I didn't realize they're going to do
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: so much of me.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: It was only four days.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, four days of filming here in my house, and
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: you know, three and four cameras, and I have an
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: upstairs downstairs. It was like we were a soundstake for
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: a while.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, you are the foremost right expert though on
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: all of this, at least that is what I saw
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: when I watched the documentary, and a lot of people
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: were obviously involved. There were a lot of attorneys involved, journalists.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: You're sort of the go to.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Well. I think that's because I first broke the story
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: in ninety broke the story worked for the TV show
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  Speaker 2: hard Copy at the time, the tabloid TV show, But
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: we were way out in front on that story. I
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: covered it solid for a year, well maybe not quite
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: a year, and then this other little case called the O. J.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Simpson murder came up, so I got a little diverted.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: But over the years, I've just always stayed in touch
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: with my sources, stayed interested in the topic, and have
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: continuously written about it, either in a syndicated column or
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: in a book or you know, so I sort of
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: have distinction of being the one all the fans screamed
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: at during the trial, and I still get hate mail.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I've got for since the internet came up.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: There was no internet in nineteen ninety three, which was yay.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Well, it was also the drama of it, right, very
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: and it felt although obviously the cameras were in the
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: courtroom for OJ, but the drama around it, it was
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: there was such a story there, right, this was real stuff,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: These are real kids, these are real crimes. Right, But
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: it felt like a drama in the same way that
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: watching OJ did. Right, although we didn't get to see
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: this and that we didn't get see the court in
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: real time. How do you feel like the documentary did
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: in terms of representing what really went down?
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Oh? I think it was great. I thought it was great.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Was it complete? No?
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: What was missing?
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Netflix has this rule that documentaries are three episodes long.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: I think they could have made six episodes.
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  Speaker 1: What important? What do you think was the most important
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  Speaker 1: thing that's missing?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think some context was missing. You know, I'll
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: just quickly tell you. In that courtroom you said your
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: mind kept changing and changing as you heard testimony.
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  Speaker 1: And I feel guilty, by the way, don't think that
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I don't don't think that. I don't feel guilty saying.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: That oh no, no, no, I understand you, not.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Just to you in general, like to be you know,
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  Speaker 1: to watch these attorneys and all of a sudden, I said, no,
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  Speaker 1: you're so roped into a testimony and then it's discredited
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  Speaker 1: like that.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, well that's what a good defense attorney is supposed
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  Speaker 2: to do.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Until they were good.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this family was not pristine. They had a
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: background of domestic abuse, of shoplifting, of you know, all
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: sorts of things. And Mesio was a master at making
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  Speaker 2: this family look like money grubbers, like they were out
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  Speaker 2: to get everybody's money and they were liars.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Well, the documentary didn't like we're talking about the J. C.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: Penny when they see J C. Penny. I didn't see
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: that seemed very much portrayed to me even in the
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: in the documentary as they were sort of like that. Right. Well,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: the way the story was told.
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  Speaker 2: What wasn't the context I'm talking about that could have
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: added curious episodes to this is this family, the Arviso family,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: which was the criminal trial it was all about. Gavin
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  Speaker 2: Arvizo is the alleged victim. They came from a family
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  Speaker 2: where the father, David was a in my opinion, a monster.
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  Speaker 2: He just I mean he would take the boys into
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: J C. Pennies to buy their school uniforms and say, okay,
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  Speaker 2: pick them up, pick them up right, run outside, and
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  Speaker 2: they would because if they defied their father they would
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: have been beaten corse. So and they're eight and nine
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: years old. They do what their dad tells him to do.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: And so it came to pass in the courtroom that
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: look at this family, they go around acting like gypsies.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Well they did when David was in the picture, but
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: the mother had gotten rid of David and actually moved
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: on to somebody else. And so why didn't they call
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: David Arviso? I mean, David Arviso was critical to what happened,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: but the court never hear from him.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, that's so interesting because the way that I it
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: was presented to me, it was the mother who, at
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: least not I'm not talking about it even with Michael,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: but in terms of the J. C. Penny incident, was
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: looking for money, right, looking for I don't know, a
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: quick payout, and.
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  Speaker 2: So that's what it looked like to the journey. Yeah,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: but it was the father who when they got the
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: payout from J c. Pennies father said, don't tell welfare.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: We'll just keep getting welfare, and so that came back
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: to bite the mother because David's nowhere to be found
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: in the corporate Yeah. Of course, another thing, the prosecution
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: wanted to put forth an expert to talk about women
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: who've gone through years of domestic abuse and how do
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: they because Gavin Arvizo's mother, you know, God bless her
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: on the stand. She's on the stand for five days.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: She looked different every day. Wee be and then defiant, mad,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: and you know, she just came off not credible, strange,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: not credible. And so had the jury heard from this
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: domestic abuse survivor, her behavior might have become more understandable.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Got it.
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  Speaker 2: These are the kind of things that were not included
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: in the trial that I wish had been.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: And there was so much that was even like when
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: they brought in Michael Jackson's ex wife, Debbie Rowe, right,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and the prosecution brought her in, Yes.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: He was going to be let me tell you what
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: she was going to say. She was going to say
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: that Michael Jackson was a drug addict and that she
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: had injected him with drugs because she was a nurse
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: for his dermatologist. She was going to talk about how
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: he forbade her to see her children, that she had
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: been duped into giving up custody. And when she got
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: to the standard dajer for she, I mean, it wasn't
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: a big courtroom, she looked over at Michael and she collapsed.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: She just said physically physically no, but I mean she
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: walked in like this and then spotted him and then
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: a sort of cowd and said he was a great
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: dad and no problem. And the prosecution's jaws just dropped
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: to them.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Did you know that she was being brought in for
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: that purpose? Did you were you watching that in real
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: time knowing that she was going to talk about how
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: he's a drug addict? Wow?
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: And I saw her flip right there, flip flop like
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: a trout on a pier.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so crazy.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Let me just tell you really quick. So this jury here,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: this is who the prosecution brings up, and this is
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Had there been more episodes, maybe a concise wrap up
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: would have given this summary. The jury heard from the
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: very first case nineteen ninety three was Jordie Chandler. That
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: was the little boy. He did not testify, but his
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: mother did, and she tearfully testified about how she'd been
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: duped into allowing her son to sleep with Michael Jackson
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: by myel Jackson. We're a family. I love you, Nothing
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: bad is going to happen. I act like his father
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: in a blah blah. So she tells that story, and oh,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: by the way, she gets Cardia bracelets and free trips
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: to Monaco and shopping spreees because there is this relationship.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: They heard from a maid who said she saw Michael
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Jackson in the shower with eleven year old boy naked. Showering,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: she would fish out little boys underwear from the jacuzzi
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: when she cleaned them out, various pairs of the underwear.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Another maid, Blanca Froncia, testified her son had been sexually
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: molested by Michael Jackson, and then her son testified, he's
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: now a grown man, young man, a youth pastor. All
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: these years later, he breaks down in tears crying about
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: what happened to him. They'd heard from a security guard,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Ralph Chacone, who said, I surveyed Neverland at night, that
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: was my patrol, and I saw Michael Jackson performing oral
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: sex on a twelve year old boy in the showers
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: by the swimming pool. Now, this is what the jury heard.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: So the security guard, the mother they there was was
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: there concern that they were going to be accessories? Was
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: there something? In other words, once they testified, like the
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: security guard never went to the cops, how do you
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: yet think it he did go oh, okay, way back
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: when maybe I'm not remembering, Okay, but.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: The little boy he saw was Jordan Chandler. Okay, Jordan
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Chandler's family got more than twenty million dollars to shut
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: up and go got it right?
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: No, I do not right? Okay, okay, got it?
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: So but the point, the point is I was on
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: a pro the other night with Mark Geregus, Michael Jackson's
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: former attorney, who said, yeah, but all those other people
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: that wasn't the Gavin Arbizel boy, And that was what
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: the criminal trial was about. Wrong. The judge did allow
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: in what's called eleven ZHO eight testimony past bad acts.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: So this was the past bad acts of Michael Jackson
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: as alleged by the prosecution. It was Germaine testimony. So,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: but every single witness that I just ascribed to you
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: under cross examination by the very majestic Tom Mezzerro big
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: huge guy looks like the Quaker oats guy you know
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: with the big white hair, now is very good. He
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: made them all out to be money grubbers. Well, how
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: come you didn't go to the police. Well, and I
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: asked each and every one of them when I put
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: them on camera years ago, and they all said, who
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: would have believed me against Michael Jackson? I'm just a
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: made I mean I had interviewed long ago wardrobe mistresses
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: and limo drivers and chefs and people in the music industry,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: people who worked in his music office, MJJ Productions. They
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: all said to me, I never came forward because first
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: of all, I'd lose my job and I need my job,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: and who would believe me?
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I understand every single thing you're saying. I
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: can see it. I wonder to myself a mother, and
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I know this is a question that obviously everyone asks
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: and people love to judge, although so do I in
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: this instance, how does a mother for Cardier bracelets allow
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: that to happen? And then that shows doubt? I think
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: maybe this happened, you tell me in the minds of
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the jury, Like if a mother really knew this would
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: happen was happening. Would a mother really you know, be
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: a would a mother would it be possible to bribe
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: a mother, you know? And she would then allow her
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: son to be molested? It seems very far fetched.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Well, but they don't. They don't believe their son is
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: being molested because the perpetrator. Right, everything's okay.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Right, But they obviously didn't want it. But they didn't
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: want it to happen.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: The kid who's getting all this attention and getting to
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: go to wonderful places in this instance, neverland.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, agreed. She's saying that she had to be convinced.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: It's not that she said she obviously our instincts were
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: this is this is weird.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't brother, I'm a light.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know, and that's the thing, and I think
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: part of that right, And I'm not saying I don't
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: know anything. I don't I hate, I don't know any
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: her full story. I don't know where she comes from.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to think in terms of the jury. Right, So, hmm,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: would the mother was the mother really suspecting anything, like,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: why would she allow that? And while she was bribed,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: even if she was bribe. There's all of this stuff, right.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: That is so it's so difficult because there's just it
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: feels to me they could the defense could make anything
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: seem murky bingo, even bringing in McAuley culkin. You know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I mean that here's another star. It's not. He's not
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: just a kid. He is the home alone kid.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well there was there was a chef who testified
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: at the trial, and I had interviewed him years ago
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: that he saw Michael Jackson fondling mcaulay culkin. Well, the
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: kid was playing a a what do you call.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: The video game or whatever like that, Yeah, some sort
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: of game atari.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, they were
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: in the game room and he came to deliver French
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: fries in the middle of the night, and there was
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Michael with his hands in the kid's pants. Well, Meserel said,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: wait a minute. Didn't you first say the hands were
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: over the pants and when now suddenly they're in the pants,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: and you know, he just again was very good. Can
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I say? And I don't mean to keep talking about
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: my book, but I fully explain in this book, be
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: careful who you love. Inside the Michael Jackson case, there's
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: a chapter in here. I think it's like chapter eight
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: where I interviewed the special agent with the FBI. Ken
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Lanning is his name. This is a guy who wrote
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: the profile of a pedophile for the bureau years ago.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: This is what you look for, and he explained to me.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: And this will tell you why June Chandler Schwartz agreed
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: to all of this. Pedophiles are the most personable, fun loving, fabulous, crafty,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: cunning criminals you'll ever meet.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Gives me chills.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: That's just because they seduce the parent first. They seduce
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: the parent of most of almost on the time, of
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: a dysfunctional family, a broken family, a divorced family, a
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: family like the Arvizos, whether it's domestic abuse, and the
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: kid is craving attention, and he says to the mother,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: you're busy, you're a single mother. I'll take them camping,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I'll take them to the movies tonight. And the mother's like, oh, phew,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I finally get a moment to myself. I could take
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: a bath or whatever. And they're so believed that someone
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: has taken an interest in their son that they say
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: yes when they shouldn't say yes. And they don't see
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: a pattern, because the kid comes home happy. I had
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: ice cream, I got a toy. We went to this
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: fabulous arcade place. Wow, mom, I had such a great time.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: And so when that perpetuates, according to Ken Lanning, this
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: is what a pedophile seeks out. A preferential pedophile goes
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: for a certain type. If you like a little boy
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: and there's a beautiful woman, you'll go for that little
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: boy every time, because you are a preferential pedophile. And
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: so your life, according to Ken Lanning, is hunting, hunting
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: the right family, hunting the right parent that you can
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: seduce first to get to your child.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Did he think that Michael Jackson fit that bill exactly?
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, And he was scheduled to testify at the trial.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: But they never called him. Prosecution never called him for
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: some reason.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, why would the prosecution call him the
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: defense would? I mean, excuse me, I'm sorry, of course,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: the prosecution never called him. Why.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: I wonder, you know, I'm going to be honest with you.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I can't remember if they just decided it wasn't worth
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: the expense flying him to California, or if the judge
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: said no, you can't do that. I'd have to go back. No,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: that's what all my notebooks, I'd have to go look
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: through my note.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine for you, knowing what you knew, showing up,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: seeing the fans, having them direct some of their anger
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: at you, obviously maybe a lot of their anger at youth.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: They still do. So that's scary in and of itself, right,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: and feeling so passionately even knowing the families. How hard
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: this must have been the day in and the day out.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: What I mean watching it. I was exhausted after each episode.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: It's exhausting to watch, right, because it takes you up
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: here and down there and back around again. I can
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: imagine for someone who's who'd invested so much time in
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: breaking a case, and how horrifying it must have been
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: for you.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: It wasn't horrifying. It was fascinating really to see what
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: I'd first reported in ninety three, and then the second
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: boy in two thousand and three, and now that second.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Boy frustrating, Maybe not horrifying, frustrating.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: It was exhausting, I have to tell you, yeah, because
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: at the same time I was working for Court TV.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: At the time, I was also contracted to The Today Show,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: which is seven o'clock in the east but for am
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: in the West. Yes, and I was finishing writing in
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: the book. So yeah, it was pretty exhausting. But I
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I'm a curious type and I I wanted to see
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: it through, you know, I wanted to see it through.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get that. It's it doesn't escape me,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: and I know it doesn't escape you. The irony of Michael.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: The movie being released recently, and I did not watch
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: it before I watched the verdict. But I did watch
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: it before we said, so I did watch it a
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: few nights ago. Wow, did you see it?
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: I did not see the biopic and I don't plan to.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think suggest that.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I would not suggest that you did.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: But but that said, he was a mega talent, I know,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: but star I love the music. I still I was
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: in Macy's the other day in a dressing room and
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Michael Jackson song came on. It was like, what, I
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: can't escape it. The music's fabulous. He was a wonderful
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: talented guy.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: But I BELI its flawed, certainly. But in you know,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: in the movie it talks about how he was abused
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: by his father.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I believe, and I believe that's true.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Right, and you know that's it was heartbreaking to watch
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: and it's just again it makes everything is so complicated
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: with this case, right, and it just it's it it
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: It hurts. It hurts the brain. It hurts the head,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: just to like try to consider all the different aspects
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: of this. And his popularity is now it seems like
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: it is on the incline, like he is. People are
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: talking about Michael Jackson again, kids are right. How is
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: that for you? Is that frustrating?
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: No? No, I understand it, because you know, if you
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: get online and I try not to, but things get
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: reported back to me. The fans have taken it upon
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: themselves to promote the biopic Michael the Bile Pick, and
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: as part of that, they program their Spotify's to play
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: his music twenty four to seven, even while they're sleeping,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: they just play his music and play his music. So
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: now Michael Jackson's music is at the top of the
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: charts because the fans everywhere are promoting it through Spotify
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: and other platforms, and so he's a megastar again. And
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: the you know, the thing.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Made a billion dollars hard for you. I mean you
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: so much of your life has been spent on this
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: and on trying to get him to do the right
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: thing and have the truth come out.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: That's not frustrating, it it's bewildering to me that these fans,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: and believe me, I get the hate mail even to
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: this day, they are just so dead sure that he
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: is such an icon that he never ever, ever could
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: have done it.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: When they don't, you are, by the way, you are
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: dead sure that he did well.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: In my book, I let the reader decide. I just
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: chronologically tell you the facts and what I turned up,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: and I let the reader decide.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: But do you not like to talk about how you
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: feel about it?
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: No, because I'm I'm you know who cares what I feel?
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I do?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't ask the question in Good Friez.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Please.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, I believe he was one of the most prolific,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: in your face pedophiles the United States has ever known.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: There was one in Britain called Jimmy Saville was Jimmy
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Saville was all about children's charities and he was a
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: fabulous guy. Well in the meantime he was molesting them.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: And so if you go back to Agent Ken Lanning,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: they're crafty, they're cunning, they're personable, they're pillars of the community.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Many times they're tax paying, they go to church.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Why is that? Why does that? Why would a pedophile
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: be charming to get.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: What they want? A bank robber goes in cases out
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: of bank, sees when everybody comes and goes, and how
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: many employees there are, and how many tellers there are,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: and where are the cameras in ease case and the joint.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: A pedophile hunts his prey and craftily make sure they
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: can get it by going through the parents first. Most
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: of the time, you know it's a Pedophiles don't hang
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: around in trench coats with no underwear on around a playground.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: That's not the way it works. Just as.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: There were so many times though I thought, okay, even
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: though I obviously I knew the outcome. But watching, for instance,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: the Black Book of Porn or what was it was
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: a black book or it was a black where all
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: his porn magazine like and the envelope where all of
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: his magazines were, and there was a child pornography, and
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I thought, well, that's it. That seems closed and shut.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: How do you get around that?
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: You're talking about? One of the things cops do is
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: say to the boy, okay, tell us everything where you
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: saw porn? Where's the porn? They find it where the
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: case says, So that goes to the child's veracity. Okay,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: And they did find born designed to groom a kid. Hey,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: look at this, Look at her? Ooh, look at him. Oh,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: look at this couple's doing. And he desensitizes a child
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: so that a they can talk about sex with the
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: purp and then experiment with the pet purp. Now what
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: they found. And I actually got a copy of these
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: two books I think you're talking about. They're big coffee
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: table books. I should have dug them out to show you,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: but I don't think you really want to see them.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: They're big coffee table books of naked children. It was
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: described in court as an art book glorifying the human form.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: That's what tom Mesrov said to the jury. It's like,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: you know, glorified of the photography, just to show the
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: beautiful human form. Okay, Well, then why is that kid
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: displayed open naked licking a banana or an ice cream cone?
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Diane, That's what I thought, Like, I don't get it.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: So how even the I know that he was he's
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: a brilliant defense attorney. How do you get around that.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Well, they said that Michael didn't Michael didn't buy those books.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Today, if somebody had that in their hall, you'd be
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: swooped up and arrested. That would be it.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Michael didn't, I spoke. Somebody sent them to him, that
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: was the defense. Somebody sent him the books, you know,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: fans send him all sorts of things.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it's maddening justin.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: You know, if you realize you brought up the fact
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: that the biopic showed Michael Jackson was abused by his father.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I got many many calls back in nineteen ninety three
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: from people in Gary, Indiana telling me exactly that not
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: only that, but worse that old Joe took the boys
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: on the Chitlin Circle circuit the nightclubs way back when
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: to get them to perform, and he would pass off
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Michael to the owners of the nightclubs. Now, I'm telling
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: you that I could never prove that allegation. I could
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: never prove that passed you. Well, I tried, Don't you
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: think I didn't try. Some of the calls I got
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: on this were coming from prison. So am I going
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: to believe a prisoner? Who's what I mean? Why is
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: he telling me that anyway, it was. There was a report,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: it's in the book that Rebe, the oldest daughter, had
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: been raped by her father, filed a police report with
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: the Gary, Indiana Police Department. I went to get it. Oh,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: it no longer exists. Sorry. So if you understand that
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: child molesting affects a child for the rest of their life,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: and a molested child frequently goes on to molest other children,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: it's just a cycle. It's a terrible cycle. It can
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: be broken. The aid's son who testified, for example, he
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: was a clean cut kid, he'd just gotten married, he
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: was a youth pastor, he had faced car engines. I mean,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: I don't think he's going to go on to molests children.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: But it was a one or two time, three time
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: thing with Jackson and him for Michael, how many times
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: if it happened, how many times did it happen with
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: his father or with nightclub owners? And so no wonder
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: he didn't have a childhood. He didn't have a childhood.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: They show him in the movie and you may have
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: already heard this, but a lot about him and his
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: love of animals and his childlike behavior. Obviously, even as
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: he grew into a man, the fear of his father
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: and all of that. And I remember at one point,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: not recently, but thinking, well, he is just a child himself,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: you know, and he was not just a child himself.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: In fact, he was a grown man. But that I
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: feel like that his behavior, especially in if you watch
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the movie, it really is the behavior of a child
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: who is scared of daddy and who just wants to
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: be loved by giraffes, monkeys, snakes, fans, fans, fans. So
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: that has always been you know, the other side of
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: this is, how could he be a child molester? He's
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: a child. I feel like that is how he's represented
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: many times.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: But he's a grown man, and he is a grown
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: man who an empire.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: But do you feel like that that's an angle that's
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: been used.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but two things can be true. You can be
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: a damaged person and stuck in childhood and have a
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: little voice like this like he had when he grunted
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: at me outside the court. He didn't have a little voice.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you. He had a big voice, really,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: And you can see him in the Netflix documentary turn
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Around and say I can't answer questions coming out of court,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: and he's got a big voice, you know, so to him.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: So you think you think that voice was an affectation.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was a performance. I think his
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: father beat that into him. They all talked like that.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: All of the Jackson's have that little voice. Yeah, it's performative,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: you know. And when he was eleven years old, his
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: father made him say he was eight years old, right,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: so that he could be you know, perpetually young.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: So you know you learn things in life that you
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: carry into adulthood. I mean that's just a fact.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Anyway, Look, I have a I have a great I
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: always had great empathy for Michael Jackson. He did not
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: have a normal life. He was the family wa he
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: was the talent. The rest of them were like, Okay,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: you can harmonize, but I'm a guy who writes music
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and can perform and make a video and do thriller.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: And you know, he was a pitiable person. But I
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: also think he was his own worst enemy.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Amazing. I find it so interesting that you have empathy
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: for Michael Jackson. And we talked to a lot of
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: people here on Killer Thriller. We talk to people who
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: have been victimized, people that have directed documentaries, people who
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: have who are the sisters of and but I don't
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: often hear someone you have made it clear what you believe,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: you know Michael Jackson did and who he was, and
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: yet you're still able to have empathy. Maybe that just
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: makes a good reporter. I don't know.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Well, I see both sides. I see all sides of
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: an issue. You know, every case I cover. I like
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Jackson's music. I don't like what I think he did
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: to children. That's my I know he was not guilty.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting opinion. It's a valid opinion,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: and I see many people grappling, you know, with the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: fact that he still is. Michael Jackson is so beloved, right,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: and plenty of people that won't put his music on
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: because they believe that he's a child molester, and they're
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: not going to do that. So it's interesting. I like
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: hearing your perspective there.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know. I did a I did an
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: interview with Irish radio once from the courthouse during a
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: break and they said, well, you'll be glad to know
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: we're not playing his music anymore. And I thought that
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: was the first time i'd heard that. I thought, what's
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: that going to prove. You know, it just seemed odd
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: to me. You know, you can love the art and
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: not the man or not the person.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, especially today. I mean, you can get it's
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: just interesting with Michael Jackson because people are very loud
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: and proud about their love of him and his music
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: and his career and there's and they don't get canceled
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: for it.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: But if you think he's guilty, you get canceled by them,
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: by the fans. I mean, I took all sorts of
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: precautions when this Netflix documentary came out, because I knew
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: there was going to be another rush of crap thrown out. Yeah,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: you know about the biopic. I was so interested to
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: learn that Paris Jackson, Michael's daughter, said I don't want
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: any part of this. I saw the early script and
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: it's a fantasy. It's a fantasy designed to get money
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: from the fans.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually remember hearing that, right.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Wow. You know, she's gotten close to her mother, and
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: she's gotten close to Debbie Row. Over the last few years,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Paris went through some tough times, remember and whatnot, And
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: I wonder if her mother hasn't sat her down and said,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: let me tell you something. Money I don't have any
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: way of knowing, but I noticed that Janet jack And
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: didn't want anything to do with the biopick either, so.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: They didn't even mention her. It was all LaToya well,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: she asked not to be mentioned. Yes, it's interesting, it's
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: really it's interesting. So who the two boys? I'm sorry
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: if I if I messed this up, but I think
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: one was Jordi. But the two boys that did they
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: sued the Jackson estate after Michael Jackson had died and
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: went back and told their story, and it was extremely
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: compelling and moving. Do you know who I'm talking about?
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: It was one Jordy No, No, Jimmy Safe Chuck okay,
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: and one was Wade Robson, and they were the two
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: boys in Neverland the.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Document Thank you. Yes, of course I.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Knew those boys when they were little kids. I saw
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: those little boys when they were little kids. And Wade Robson,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: for example, was brought out after my original reports. After
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: about a week of me reporting more and more every
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: night every night, Michael Jackson's private investigator, Anthony Pellicano, brings
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: this little kid out. Two little boys actually, Brett Barnes
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: and Wade Robson and They're sitting on a couch, their
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: legs aren't even touching the ground, and a reporter is
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: asking some off camera reporter is saying, well, what you know,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: did you sleep with Michael Jackson? Yes, and both of
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: the boys like parrots. But nothing ever happened.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: What was the timeline here? Wait? What was the timeline here?
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Dan? In nineteen ninety three?
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: You broke the story and you broke the story in
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three three with not with them though, No,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: it was.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: All about Jordi Chandler, right, And to counter it, the
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Jackson team brings up these two littles too.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Then later after Michael died, right, So then dies right?
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: And I didn't followed itay? Right? Did they? And they
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: sued the estate. I don't know if they want.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: No, it's still going. It's in a huge multi year
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: I think they're in the eighth year of trying this.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: And you know, the estate has a billion dollars now
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: more than a billion dollars, So they're going to fight
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: these two boys to young men now till the nth degree.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Wade Robson was at the trial, and you know what
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: he said, nothing ever happened, Nothing ever happened. Yes, I
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: slept with them a lot, but nothing ever happened. And
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: then the prosecution on cross examination said, mister Robson, you
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: actually live in Hawaii. Yes, where are you staying now
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: that you're here? And he said, I'm staying at Nepperland.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: It was like, oh, okay, so Michael's putting you up
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: and you're here testifying that nothing ever happened. And then
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: the prosecution brought out those big coffee table books with
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: the naked boys yeah, and put them in front of
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Wade Robson, who's tall, He's about six foot something five.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: And they put the book in front of Wade Robson
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: and said, now you have a young son, now, mister Robson,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: yes I do. What if a thirty five year old
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: man showed this kind of a book to your son?
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: And they started flipping the pages and Wade Robson just
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: sunk down in his chair like, I wondered had he
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: seen these books before? What was going on? And shortly
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: after that he came forward and said, yes, I was molested.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I lied on the stand and I was molested. Then
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Saifchuk came forward saying, hey, it happened to someone else,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: So it's both those two boys are still suing the
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: estate after years and years.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: That was a hard one to watch too, But it's
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: so fascinating, how I mean, there's all of this, and
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: there's so many boys, and there's so much evidence, and
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: there are so many people that still don't believe.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: It, and are they all lying? Are they all money
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: grubbers or the Gavin Arviso and his family were made
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: out to be these terrible grifters. They never went after
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: any money, you know. Oj Simpson was found not guilty
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: like Jackson, but then the Goldman's sued in civil court
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: and could have gone to civil court. They could have
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: been money grubbers and gone after it. They never asked
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: for any money. They went right to the police. Saw
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Gavin Arviso on the documentary that Martin Basheer did, and
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: they said, who's that kid holding hands with Michael saying
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: he slept with him his heads on Michael Show. And
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: they found him and the mother said, oh my god,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: what happened. I had no idea. I'll testify she didn't say.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: She didn't go to the Jacksons and try to get
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: money like Jerdie Chandler's dad did the r viso have
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: never ever gone after money?
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Oh? Why Gavin doesn't speak to them anymore? Right to who?
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: To his parents? Well, to his mother, No, he does.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Jordie Chandler did not speak to his.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Mother Gavin too?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: No, okay for no, I mean I don't think they're
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: super close.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Is it so? And JORDI didn't either? Is it? Because
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: how could you let this happen to me? Was that?
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Yes? Jordie Chandler June testified in court. When was the
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: last time you saw your son? She said? Eleven years ago?
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: So eleven years ago his father took custody of him
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: and they moved away from California, moved out to Long Island.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: So he didn't see his mother and blamed his mother
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: from everything I understand from different sources, didn't want to
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: talk to her. Now I think they have, they have
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: sort of reconciled a bit.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Imagine being that mother. I mean, the whole thing is
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: so horrific, right.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: For that kid. You know, he's got twenty million dollars.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: But right, but having to survive that, I don't know,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: But I think about these mothers that, as you put it,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: he gave them Cardier bracelets imagine and exotic trips and
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: then realizing what you had done, what he had done
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: to your baby, what you had done by accepting these gifts.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: And you know, for those who think, oh, he cannot
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: have done it, he was Michael Jackson. He's my icon.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: He's like Jesus Christ, which has been said to me
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: on more than one occasion.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: That's scary.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Okay. So there's Jordie Chandler, Okay. Then there's Jason Francia,
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Then there's Gavin Arvizo, Then there's Wade Robson, Then there's
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Jimmy's Safe Chuck, and there are others who have come forward.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: But there's five people right there. I mean, how is
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: everybody lying? Is everybody after money? I mean the Chandler
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: of people took money because it was offered to them,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: twenty million dollars. Here, go away with all of those
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: fans on your front port. You can escape them and
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: go across the country, go to another country if you want.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Here's some money. Bye bye. If I'm not guilty of
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: something like as horrendous as pedophilia, I'm not paying anybody off.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: I don't believe the whole thing. Well, he just paid
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: them to spare the child the trauma of a trial.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Have you ever worked on anything that you were as
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know, engrossed in. I mean there have been
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: as this, because I can't imagine anything could ever top.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: This, well, certainly in terms of celebrity. But the last
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: book I wrote, which it took me eight years, eight
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: years of investigation, I had a syndicated column and I
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: was writing about the topic in that and then the
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: floodgates opened, and the issue was guardianship, conservatorship, like what
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: happened to Britney Spears. Court ordered guardianship all of a sudden,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: some court, some piece of paper says that you're incapacitated
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: and you lose all your civil rights. And a guardian,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: sometimes a total stranger, is in charge of all your money,
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: your will, your power of attorney, all of that is
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: thrown out.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Why'd you become interested in that because of the Britney case?
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Not really, No, I started looking into it in twenty fifteen,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: and that's a whole nother show.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, please, I just.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: I don't like injustice.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: I don't like bullies me neither.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: It pisses me off.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Don't go on reality television.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Oh man, I just I can't stand it. So I
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: started getting these reports. One from New Mexico. An old
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: friend's sister called to me, said, the court has taken
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: over my father's life and is seven million dollars and
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: we're never going to get our inheritance because they're spending
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: it all. And oh my god, And I thought what.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: And I couldn't get any info on it because these
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: cases are sealed. You're incapacitated. That means hip the laws.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: You know, it's medical. We can't it's all private now.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: And a few months later I found out about a
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: very similar case in Pennsylvania. But I could go to
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: those hearings. I just kind of snuck into those hearings
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: in Harrisburg, and I realized, this is a nationwide thing.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: What's happening behind closed courtroom doors that we're paying for that,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, people's human rights are being taken away. So
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: I wrote a little bit about it in my syndicated column,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: which I have given up now, and the floodgates opened.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: I started hearing from people in every almost every single state.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: It happened to my mother, it happened to my father,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: it happened.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: To my Is there any crime box on it.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, there are. There's one called The Guardian. There is.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: There are two feature films on it, one called I
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Care a Lot with Rosamund Pike, and there's another one
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: called The Bad Guardian. It's lifetime and it's terrific.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: It will bring you back to talk about Melissa Joanhart.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Is this okay? I mean I talked strictly about documentaries,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: but my co host does talks about the movies and
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: the films that are made.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Well, there have been a couple of guardianship documentaries made,
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: and this one in particular, I'll just rip your heart out.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: I'm still conflicted, Like it's so funny with these stars, right,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: like a Britney Spears, But what was the truth? Right?
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Did her father snow her? Was she taken advantage of
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: in terms of the control that he had over her? Yes?
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Right like Jackson Right.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's hard to get because there's all of this
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: fame and all of the lore of the person that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I think clouds are judgment, right, maybe the judgment of
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: a jury. Yeah, it's very complicated.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: And you know she finally got out of guardianship, right,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: and then I mean she's self destructive. It it seems Terri.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: I wrote a large chapter in my book. It's called
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: We're here to Help when Guardianship goes wrong. I have
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: a huge chapter on Brittany and that they call it
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: conservatorship in California. That never should have happened. It was
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: instituted illegally, and then thirteen years later she finally gets
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: it lifted. Now is she still all screwed up? Or
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: did all of that screwed her control? Screw her up?
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Right? You know?
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: For the gal right now?
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Like Michael Jackson, I mean, she was one of those
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: stars stars, it was still less they were in the galaxy.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: They were you know. It's it's that big, right, that huge,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And so I guess everything takes on almost like a
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: different meaning. It's it's just an interesting thing. I always think,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: how do you find a jury that doesn't know about
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: the music of Michael Jackson right exactly? How do you
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: find that person? And if that person does exist, there's
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: clearly something wrong with that person. Maybe that person isn't
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: leave their house. It's complicated right well.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: And in the case of Jackson's jury, Britney Spears never
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: got a jury trial, she never testified before they put
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: her in this You know, really restrictive lifestyle. But the
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: jury for Jackson. You know, Santa Barbara County is not
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: huge and Neverland is kind of toward the northern part
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: of the county and it's you know, it's Rodeo area,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: it's western. It's like, wow, Hey, that's our most famous resident. Wow.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Hears him in this tiny courtroom looking in him every
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: day and wow. And yeah, I mean you saw the
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: jury in the Netflix. Yes, three thirty years later, she's
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: still gushing over having been in the same courtroom with
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Michael and he caught my eye and said, thank you.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right right, you know that funny though she was
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: even watching her and yeah, I saw what you saw
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: right that she was so enamored, But she was very
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: I believe that she was trying. I believe that she
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: was trying to decipher what the truth was. And despite
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: the fact that she was enamored, she was likable, I thought,
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: And so I wasn't at like it's just confusing. It's very,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: very overwhelmingly confusing. I mean, I have my opinion, you
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: have your opinion, but I understand even the jurors how
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: they made the decision that they.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Made well beyond a reasonable.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Doubt beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: A reasonable Now, if the ar Diesel had been money grubbers,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: they could have gone to civil court, where you don't
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: have beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean, it's much easier
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: to win in civil court. They could have gone and
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: probably gotten some sort of settlement for a jury.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Right, But he didn't do that. It's interesting you still
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: keep in touch. Yes, that's awesome. Yeah, they must love you.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: I actually went to Gavin Arvizl's wedding.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I think I read that in Georgia. Yeah, they must. Well,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: is he happy?
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: I don't really really like to talk much about him
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: because he's not had an easy life. He's a cancer
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: survivor and he wanted to do certain things in his life.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: And every time an employer put his name into Google,
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: guess what popped up and guess what job he didn't get.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: And it's been very tough for Gavin.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry to hear that.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's kind of all I want to say
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: That's absolutely fine. Yeah, that's absolutely fine.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: But he's married, happily married and has a good job,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: I think, And yeah, it's good.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear it. Yeah, do you think that
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: we will I kind of know the answer to this
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: ever reach a public consensus on Michael Jackson's his legacy
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: justin to remain unresolved.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: No, No, don't. I don't think Netflix documentary, the biopic don't.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: I don't think they change minds.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Minds are I don't either. I agree although the documentary,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: you know, I guess I wanted to believe maybe maybe,
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe maybe he was innocent, it didn't matter he
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: was dead, not that it didn't matter matter to his victims.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: But I'm saying, you know, but what I mean is
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: that it was it's easier to think, maybe you know,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: that he wasn't that way, But the documentary definitely swayed me.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: And I always thought he did it. But yeah, I
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: You know, it's easier to think. It's hard to accept.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right, especially with someone whose work you love
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: and admire, especially someone who you have seen performed since
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: he was an adorable kid and you were an adorable kid.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: Especially with all of that's it is, It's a different thing, right,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: And I think that I have definitely for years after
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: he died, I just didn't want to put my mind
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: to it. Why would I But I think that the
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: documentary definitely forced me to open up my eyes.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: It's easier to think that that no, that doesn't happen
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: right right, human nature.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: What do you believe is the most important takeaway from
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: the verdict?
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: I think we have a justice system and we have
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: to trust it, and this jury said he wasn't guilty,
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: and so he was not guilty in the eyes of
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: the law period.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: What if it had been today that it went down,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: do you think that it would have been folded differently
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: in terms of today's media environment.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, I do think. I think today it would have
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: potentially gotten a different verdict because people are more aware,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: people are talking about these things. People are reading more
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: things about child molestation and deviant behaviors and bad childhoods
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: and what they do to people. You know, yeah, I
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: think there could have been a different, different verdict today.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: You know, I'll say one more thing. Even though he
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: was found out guilty, I hear from a lot of
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: I heard from a lot of people after the verdict
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: and after the Netflix documentary. I heard from child sexual
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: abuse survivors. Really thank you, Thank you for covering the story,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: thank you for writing the book. Thank you for believing
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: it couldn't happen. You know, it can happen. It can
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: be a priest, a boy scout, It can be yourn
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: extraor neighbor.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: It can be your own I know it can happen.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: It can be your school teacher. You know. And there's
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of survivors out there that are very happy
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: that the topic continues to be discussed.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, as am I and very grateful. Yeah, you do
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: good work, my friend.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.