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DAD'S DESPERATE SEARCH: IS TIK TOK GIRL MISSING AVA GRACE, 6? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a dad's desperate search and
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: at this hour is a tic talk girl actually missing
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  Speaker 1: Ava Grace, aged six. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This
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  Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: with us.
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  Speaker 2: Search for a six year old Ava Grace Baldwin and
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  Speaker 2: her mother, Katherine Baldwin is cold from the very beginning
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  Speaker 2: and gets even colder when Catherine Baldwin's fourd escape is
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  Speaker 2: found abandoned in a parking lot on Whippy Road in
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  Speaker 2: San Antonio. David Hopper is awarded soul custody and a
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  Speaker 2: felony warrant issued for the arrest of the alleged abductor.
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  Speaker 3: While Ava Grace's father, David Hopper believes his daughter is alive,
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  Speaker 3: family do not concur they haven't seen or heard from
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  Speaker 3: Ava since twenty fifteen and believe they're dead. Hopper believes
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  Speaker 3: they're alive in hiding.
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  Speaker 4: She has family in Texas, Oklahoma, California, Florida, and Illinois,
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  Speaker 4: so that's kind of what we're thinking. She might be
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  Speaker 4: hiding out or around that area, and we believe that
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: there are people here in the San Antonio area that
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  Speaker 4: helped her get out of the state, so there's somebody
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  Speaker 4: there that knows where she's at.
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  Speaker 1: Is this beautiful little girl, Ava Grace still alive? Her
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  Speaker 1: father insists, yes, she is. Is she being kept in hiding?
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  Speaker 1: And if so, why this? As conspiracy theories emerge, identifying
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  Speaker 1: the little girl as a TikTok star joining me in
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  Speaker 1: All Star panel. But first to a very special guest
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  Speaker 1: joining us tonight. It's Avia Grace's father, David Hopper, and
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  Speaker 1: with him Tina Hopper Fulbright, Avia Grace's auntie.
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  Speaker 5: To both of you, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 5: You know, David.
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  Speaker 1: Hopper, you were blessed with a little girl, a beautiful
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  Speaker 1: little girl, and for six years she was in your life.
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  Speaker 1: I can't imagine taking one step without.
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  Speaker 5: My daughter and my son in my life.
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  Speaker 1: And I've got to hear, how have you managed to
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  Speaker 1: keep going without Ava Grace.
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  Speaker 6: It's it's a battle every day.
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  Speaker 7: I have a good support team with my family's behind
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  Speaker 7: me kind of keep it going.
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  Speaker 6: My faith in God and believing his promises and just
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  Speaker 6: there's times you.
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  Speaker 7: Have to remove yourself from the case itself and just
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  Speaker 7: have hope.
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  Speaker 6: So that's what I do.
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  Speaker 1: Why are you convinced, mister Hopper that Ava Grace is
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  Speaker 1: still alive.
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  Speaker 7: Because of Katie's background, she was her and her two
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  Speaker 7: brothers were hit out from her family also by her dad,
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  Speaker 7: and they were hit out for sixteen years. So it's
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  Speaker 7: a learned behavior and I just kind of feel in
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  Speaker 7: my heart that that's what's going on here. I think
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  Speaker 7: that not only that, but with her family not helping
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  Speaker 7: searching for them and not being involved in the case,
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  Speaker 7: it just kind of just something I feel in my heart.
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  Speaker 6: Someone knows where she's at and she's alive.
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  Speaker 7: If her dad could do it and get away with
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  Speaker 7: it for sixteen years, Like I said, it's a learned behavior,
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  Speaker 7: and I think that's what's happening now.
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  Speaker 1: Joining me in All Star Panel, but straight out to
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  Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen. Former felony prosecutor in Inner
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  Speaker 1: City Atlanta, Fulton County, now defense attorney and civil attorney.
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  Speaker 1: You can find them on Facebook. Darryl be co and
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  Speaker 1: Darryl thank you for being with us. Did you hear
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  Speaker 1: what mister Hopper David just said. He goes in my heart,
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  Speaker 1: I know she's still alive now, Darryl, you and I
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  Speaker 1: practiced in Inner City Fulton County for many, many years,
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  Speaker 1: and they're certainly not a lack of business.
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  Speaker 5: I can't even count the number of trials.
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  Speaker 1: I've tried to make a list, but there are too
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  Speaker 1: many to really count, much less the number of cases
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  Speaker 1: we investigated with a.
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  Speaker 5: Staggering case load.
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  Speaker 1: Darryl, when a witness or victim's family says, I feel
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  Speaker 1: in my heart, A lot of people discount that I
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  Speaker 1: do not. I do not discount it because so many
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  Speaker 1: times has been proven true. So when he says, and
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  Speaker 1: many people may say it's wishful thinking she's not alive,
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  Speaker 1: But when he says, he's carrying on the search because
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  Speaker 1: he knows one hundred percent in his heart, Ava Grace
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  Speaker 1: is alive and in hiding.
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  Speaker 5: I believe in Darryl.
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  Speaker 8: Nancy, there's more to it than just being in his heart.
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  Speaker 8: He's utilizing logic. If one person was able to hide
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  Speaker 8: for one six sixteen years, then what he is saying,
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  Speaker 8: I believe, based upon what has happened before, that she
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  Speaker 8: is alive and in hiding unbeknownst to her because mom
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  Speaker 8: is keeping her hidden, and that in my view.
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  Speaker 1: Is look at the screen, Can I see that video
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  Speaker 1: one more time? Of Ava Grace in the car, Darryl Cohen,
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  Speaker 1: how many videos have I taken of the chill in
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  Speaker 1: the car, the twins singing and talking and saying all
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  Speaker 1: kind of crazy things. I mean, look at her, she
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  Speaker 1: doesn't even have all of her grown up, her adult
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  Speaker 1: teeth yet.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, this guts apparent.
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  Speaker 1: I mean a visceral cut to see these videos. And
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  Speaker 1: we're getting these videos from the Hopper family. I mean, David,
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  Speaker 1: how many times have you looked at these and looked
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  Speaker 1: at these and looked at these over and over and
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  Speaker 1: over a little Eva Grace.
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  Speaker 7: Too many, too many times? Say you've got to learn
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  Speaker 7: to distance yourself from it at times.
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  Speaker 5: You know what, David, My husband once had a closet.
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  Speaker 5: He once had a closet full of.
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  Speaker 1: Clothes, clothes and shoes and all this stuff. No more,
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  Speaker 1: you know what that closet now is the whole thing. Albums,
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  Speaker 1: hand made albums of the twins by me. And yes,
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  Speaker 1: I go back and look at them all the time, right,
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  Speaker 1: I look at them all the time.
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  Speaker 5: I can't. I can't help it.
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  Speaker 1: Now I have the phone, of course, so I can
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  Speaker 1: scroll through and look at them. When you look at
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  Speaker 1: all of these videos and pictures of your little girl.
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  Speaker 5: What goes through your mind?
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  Speaker 7: David pain Penis, Uh, and I said, hope, there's days
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  Speaker 7: I have good days.
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  Speaker 6: There's days.
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  Speaker 7: Uh, you know it's wat I remember too, like right
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  Speaker 7: now that's kind of sad on the videos. Yeah, I'm
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  Speaker 7: missed out on her entire life. And Uh, that's all
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  Speaker 7: I've ever wonder was a family and uh, a child.
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  Speaker 7: And when you have it and it's rocked from you,
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  Speaker 7: it just leaves an aptiness in your heart that nothing
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  Speaker 7: can feel that voiant. So but at the same time,
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  Speaker 7: it makes me smile because I see how beautiful she is.
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  Speaker 6: I do have that hope that I'll be reunited with
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  Speaker 6: her again.
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  Speaker 1: So that day when a car, a Ford Escape is
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  Speaker 1: found abandoned in a parking lot on Whitby Road in
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  Speaker 1: San Antonio, that car wasn't left there by chance. That
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  Speaker 1: car was left in that location for a reason. I
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  Speaker 1: want to think through this, David Hopper, Why do you
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  Speaker 1: believe Baldwin's car was left in that location to be found?
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  Speaker 6: Really? I don't know on that. There's all sorts of
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  Speaker 6: speculations on that.
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  Speaker 7: I just I think because she had help, because she
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  Speaker 7: used to do she'd go to the hookah bars and
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  Speaker 7: stuff like that, and as we invested Denarlu investigation, we
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  Speaker 7: found out that there was one here by there, So
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  Speaker 7: I kind of feel like there were some people in
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  Speaker 7: the San Antonio area that that helped her came out
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  Speaker 7: of if you also have found out that there's not
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  Speaker 7: a lot of cameras around there, so it was easy
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  Speaker 7: to get in and out. So to me, I just
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  Speaker 7: doue that she had help getting out of town. That's
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  Speaker 7: where they pick up at.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, you're not making me feel any better, David by
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  Speaker 1: saying that mom visited the hookah bars all the time.
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  Speaker 1: The abandoned car the ford escaped left clearly so it
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  Speaker 1: would be found to send what message tonight? Where is
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  Speaker 1: Ava Grace? And what does TikTok have to do with this?
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  Speaker 1: If anything? After finding the vehicle abandoned, it gets worse.
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  Speaker 5: Listen.
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  Speaker 9: Catherine Baldwin has a history of alcohol and prescription drug abuse,
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  Speaker 9: as well as mental illness, for which she takes medication.
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  Speaker 9: Since she and Ava went missing, a prescription has not
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  Speaker 9: been filled in her name. Law enforcement says they believe
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  Speaker 9: Baldwin is moving frequently and it is possible she is
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  Speaker 9: visiting homeless and women's shelters, claiming she is a victim
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  Speaker 9: of stalking the case of Ava Baldwin as being investigated
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  Speaker 9: as a non custodial parent abduction.
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  Speaker 1: Straight out to doctor Chloe Carmichael, renowned clinical psychologist, author
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  Speaker 1: of Nervous Energy, Harness The Power of Your Anxiety, and
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  Speaker 1: you can find her on Twitter at doctor Chloe.
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  Speaker 5: Doctor Chloe, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 1: I've seen this before, that an adult would rather have
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  Speaker 1: the child with them, living in shelters, living in the rough,
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  Speaker 1: going from place to place, rather than letting the parent,
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  Speaker 1: the responsible parent, the loving parent, have the child. Can't
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  Speaker 1: they see what hell they're dragging the child through.
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  Speaker 5: Living that way?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, going from woman's shelter to woman's shelter, claiming
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  Speaker 1: she's been stalked and she needs to be in a
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  Speaker 1: shelter and Dragammy. You've been in a woman's shelter, right,
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  Speaker 1: I mean that's no place to raise a child.
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  Speaker 10: Nancy, of course you're right about that. One thing that
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  Speaker 10: stood out to me though, is the mention of substance
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  Speaker 10: abuse as she is and potentially being off of her medication.
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  Speaker 10: I don't know what the medication was for, but for example,
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  Speaker 10: if it were about some kind of a psychotic disorder
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  Speaker 10: like schizophrenia, or even the substance abuse itself can sometimes
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  Speaker 10: produce paranoia.
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  Speaker 5: The reason I mentioned.
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  Speaker 10: That is because, as you said, if she's going from
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  Speaker 10: place to place with fears of stalking, it may be
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  Speaker 10: that she's seriously deluded. She may believe that she's you know,
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  Speaker 10: rescuing her child from you know, some delusional dragnet, that
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  Speaker 10: she in her mind, you know, believes that she's keeping
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  Speaker 10: her safe. It does surprise me, though, that she's been
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  Speaker 10: able to do this, you know, successfully for nearly a decade.
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  Speaker 10: I mean, I just I'm a little surprised that through
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  Speaker 10: you know, investigators, that we haven't been able to locate
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  Speaker 10: her or the child.
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  Speaker 1: Wait, along with Ava Grace's father, believe Ava Grace is
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  Speaker 1: still alone for many, many different reasons, and that she's
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  Speaker 1: being kept in hiding. But how does the dad put
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  Speaker 1: his head on the pillow every night, wondering is she dead?
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  Speaker 5: Is she alive? Where is she? What has become of her?
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  Speaker 1: You are seeing pictures and video of Ava Grace with
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  Speaker 1: her father. He had her for six wonderful years before
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  Speaker 1: she was snatched away from him and it didn't start
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  Speaker 1: in a good place.
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  Speaker 9: David Hopper meets Catherine Baldwin in a recovery program called
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  Speaker 9: Celebrate Recovery, a twelve step program helping people recover from alcohol, drugs,
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  Speaker 9: and other issues. Even though newcomers are discouraged from making
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  Speaker 9: big life decisions in their first year of sobriety, David
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  Speaker 9: Hopper and Catherine Baldwin have a whirlwind courtship followed by
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  Speaker 9: a small marriage. Shortly after meeting.
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  Speaker 1: Tonight, a missing little girl's dad is haunting his ex
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  Speaker 1: wife leaves disappear with his daughter after a thirty four
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  Speaker 1: day marriage. Okay, straight back out to David Hawper, this
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  Speaker 1: is Avid Grace's father.
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  Speaker 5: You met in rehab. Why were you in rehab twenty
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  Speaker 5: years ago?
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  Speaker 6: I was with the perfect person in the world.
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  Speaker 7: I had a drug addiction to Celebrate recovery, I guess
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  Speaker 7: I beat it. So I became a ministry leader there
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  Speaker 7: for the chapter in our hometown. I was a ministry
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  Speaker 7: leader for four years, and during that time, that's when
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  Speaker 7: I met Katie.
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  Speaker 6: She was at the y Oklahoma City area. We met
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  Speaker 6: up there at one of their programs.
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  Speaker 1: What was it about you that attracted you and moved
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  Speaker 1: you to a world win wedding. You married her right
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  Speaker 1: after rehab.
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  Speaker 6: Why we have known each other for like about four
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  Speaker 6: or five months.
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  Speaker 7: She has the ability to hit on a great facade.
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  Speaker 7: She manipulates, tells you what you want to hear, and
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  Speaker 7: a lot of things that she told me I found
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  Speaker 7: out later on the lies. So it's about putting on
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  Speaker 7: to speak. I like said, it's a facade. I said,
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  Speaker 7: is just she's not who she says she is, And
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  Speaker 7: that's what we found out later on. That's why last year, David.
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  Speaker 1: I don't want you to feel like you are the
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  Speaker 1: gullible one joining me.
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  Speaker 5: You've met him already.
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  Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer Daryl Cohen. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if you ever had the privilege of practicing in front
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  Speaker 1: of Judge Luther Alverson.
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  Speaker 5: I was a signist's courtroom for.
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  Speaker 1: Years, and he yeah, I loved best judge in the courthouse,
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  Speaker 1: by the way, and the oldest judge, I might add,
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  Speaker 1: And he wanted to prove to everybody he was fit
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  Speaker 1: as a fiddle to stay on the bench. So we
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: would have to be on trial every other week and
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  Speaker 1: keep the lowest jail count of any other judge in
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  Speaker 1: the courthouse.
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  Speaker 5: Right, So that's where I got all my trial experience.
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  Speaker 1: But Darryl he had if you remember, the process that
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  Speaker 1: other judge did not have, where I would sit in
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: a conference room and each defendant from the jail would
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: come in and sit on the other side of the
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  Speaker 1: table with their lawyer, and we would try to do
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  Speaker 1: a plea deal if possible. Okay, So Darryl, I don't
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  Speaker 1: know if you ever went through that with Alverson. But
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  Speaker 1: I would sit there and listen to the defendants and
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what David Hopper said, and they would
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  Speaker 1: be the worst of the worst, charged with childless station, murder, rape,
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  Speaker 1: you name it. And they would sit down and they
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: would go, well, hello, miss Grace, and there we go.
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  Speaker 1: I call it the Eddie Haskell effect. Remember off, leave
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  Speaker 1: it to beaver, missus cleaver, lovely in those pearls, that
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  Speaker 1: whole thing. And if you listen to them long enough,
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  Speaker 1: you get totally sucked into their story.
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  Speaker 5: They're very believable.
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  Speaker 1: What I'm saying is violent felons can be very charming.
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  Speaker 1: And here's this beautiful, full woman, a damsel in distress
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  Speaker 1: and rehab, and she totally snows David Happer, he falls
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  Speaker 1: for her, and bam they're married. People can be very
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  Speaker 1: charming when in reality they're a snake in human skin.
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  Speaker 8: Nancy over a short term, just a snippet in time.
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  Speaker 8: People can do that. They can be salespeople, they can
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  Speaker 8: be actors. They do what they feel like they can
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  Speaker 8: do and they get away with it. By the way,
• 15:30
  Speaker 8: Judge Alperson used to have a motto of twa and
• 15:33
  Speaker 8: I said, your honor, What does that mean? He says,
• 15:35
  Speaker 8: Darryl travel wild, ambulatory, nothing to do with this case,
• 15:39
  Speaker 8: but he was a great human being and a great judge.
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  Speaker 8: People have an ability to be snakes when they are
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  Speaker 8: really bad serpents. They have the ability to be a
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  Speaker 8: harmless snake, garden snake, when in fact they're a copperhead
• 15:57
  Speaker 8: or a coral snake. That is not unusual.
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  Speaker 5: And that's exactly what this woman is.
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  Speaker 1: How this beautiful little girl came out of her I
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  Speaker 1: do not know just after thirty four days of wedded bliss.
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  Speaker 1: I can only imagine those thirty four days.
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  Speaker 3: This goes down thirty four days after their small wedding,
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  Speaker 3: David Baldwin filed for divorce. During the separation, process, Hopper
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: finds out his soon to be ex wife is pregnant.
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  Speaker 3: David Hopper vows to be the kind of father his
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  Speaker 3: child will be proud of, but Baldwin tells him he
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  Speaker 3: isn't the father. Shortly after Baldwin gives birth to a
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: beautiful baby girl, a court ordered DNA test proves David
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Hopper is the father of Ava Grace. The couple is
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: no longer married, but they eventually begin making plans to
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: raise Ava together.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: David Hopper and Catherine Baldwin's whirlwind romance ends after just
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: thirty four days of marriage, during which Catherine reveals she
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: is pregnant with their daughter, Ava Grace.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Talk about a wind courtship that was a whirl wind
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  Speaker 1: marriage divorce after just thirty four days.
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  Speaker 5: David, what went wrong? Dare?
• 17:07
  Speaker 11: I ask?
• 17:09
  Speaker 7: At that time, when when I was a ministry leader
• 17:11
  Speaker 7: Silver in Recovery, I was also through the program here
• 17:14
  Speaker 7: in Oklahoma called Drug Court. What I found out is
• 17:17
  Speaker 7: when I went into the office one day, the administrator
• 17:20
  Speaker 7: asked me if things was okay, and I said yes.
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  Speaker 7: Why do you ask me, she says, because your wife
• 17:24
  Speaker 7: has been calling Anne, tellam that you're using well. I
• 17:27
  Speaker 7: was testing every day, so that wasn't the case. So
• 17:29
  Speaker 7: when I confronted her about it, she kind of went off.
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  Speaker 7: And I don't want to have say a middle She
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: had a middle breakdown, you might say, because she got
• 17:37
  Speaker 7: caught at it. But if I'd have failed drug court,
• 17:40
  Speaker 7: I was looking at fourteen years in prison. So I
• 17:43
  Speaker 7: told her, you know what, this is a good work.
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  Speaker 5: Oh my stars, she was setting you up to go
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: to prison.
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  Speaker 1: Guys joining me now in addition to David Hopper and
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Avid Grace is Auntie Tina Hopper Fulbright, Darryl Cohen, and
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: doctor Chloe. Ralph Garcia is joining us senior sergeant with
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the Bear County District Attorney's Office there in Texas this jurisdiction,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: and he has been working on this case since Avia
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Grace went missing.
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: What can you tell me about this bio? Mom?
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  Speaker 12: Well, Nancy, this you know, I didn't know the Hoppers
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  Speaker 12: at all before they showed up here with this story
• 18:27
  Speaker 12: about the Ava missing. Once uh, once I determined that
• 18:32
  Speaker 12: you know, Ava and Catherine were missing, I started an
• 18:37
  Speaker 12: investigation trying to trying to locate Catherine and Ava. I
• 18:43
  Speaker 12: did a lot of the groundwork here here in San Antonio.
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  Speaker 12: Uh kind of identified places as she she uh she
• 18:53
  Speaker 12: lived nearby, and people that she was associating with. And
• 18:57
  Speaker 12: you know, after a while, I guess after months, I decided,
• 19:01
  Speaker 12: I came to a conclusion she wasn't in San Antonio.
• 19:04
  Speaker 12: But there were a lot of stories, a lot of
• 19:06
  Speaker 12: stories about Catherine uh uh. Some of them, some of
• 19:11
  Speaker 12: them were were not so nice and some of them
• 19:13
  Speaker 12: some of them some people said that she was a
• 19:15
  Speaker 12: great mom.
• 19:16
  Speaker 11: But I believe that she had the ability to in
• 19:20
  Speaker 11: public be a great mom, uh, be that person as
• 19:24
  Speaker 11: you can see by the pictures.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you being here today, but you can't
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: just drop a bomb on Nancy Grace and she doesn't
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: follow up.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: For instance, you said there's a lot of stories matter,
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: some good, some bad. What what story be specific?
• 19:37
  Speaker 12: Well, you know when I started, when I started my investigations,
• 19:41
  Speaker 12: I spoke to her family.
• 19:43
  Speaker 11: They gave me the same stories that David gave me
• 19:46
  Speaker 11: about about.
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: How she was.
• 19:48
  Speaker 11: She would use people, and she would go out with
• 19:51
  Speaker 11: certain men and in hopes that she can get something
• 19:54
  Speaker 11: out of a relationship. I also spoke to some of
• 19:57
  Speaker 11: the people that were in the uh the home that
• 19:59
  Speaker 11: was that she was at in.
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: What kind of home was it? Sergeant? What kind of
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: you said? The home? What kind of home was it?
• 20:07
  Speaker 13: So she disappeared from It was a home for a
• 20:11
  Speaker 13: battered woman that actually sat on a couple of akers
• 20:16
  Speaker 13: and had several different quarters living quarters on there. It
• 20:21
  Speaker 13: was a pretty pretty nice place. I believe you hold on.
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: Just a moment.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I want to follow up with a few things you said.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: You're giving me so much information, Sergeant Garcia, thoughts are
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: pinging like a old pinball machine.
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, Crime.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave.
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much for being with us.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to just absorb all the knowledge I'm getting
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: right now in our search for little Ava Grace.
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: I heard a lot of things.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Heard that the mom is a user and uses people.
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: That tells me a lot. But I'm going to go
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: to the shrink on that.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: But to you, now, I see why you're trying to
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: convince me, Dave Mack, that the mom may be going
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: from shelter to shelter to shelter. And I've seen a
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: lot of shelters, only a handful of them were fit
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: to have a child in Okay. Now, I see what
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: you're saying, because at the time this mother, dare I
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: call her that she doesn't deserve It was in this
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: battered women's center shelter. She wasn't battered, she was on
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: the run. She left, and it wasn't untill like twenty
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: days later that anybody even knew she was gone, right,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: And the dad kept waiting to hear from them, hear
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: from them, hear from them when he finds out they're gone,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: much like call it mom.
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: Laurie Valo. Now, I see what you're saying.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: So what's her pattern, Dave mac She would go from
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: shelter to shelter and convinced them she was being chased
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: or beaten or stalked. Yep.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: She had a pretty common story, Nancy, that she was
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: the victim, she needed help and expected them to put
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: her up. I mean she went from shelters to religious missions,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: you know, any group that would take her in, beat her,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: give her a place to crash. That was pretty much it.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: And she always had that idea that you know, she's
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: being followed, she is being chased. You know, she's got
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: to protect her daughter. And she was able to work
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: that into a lifestyle for a while, and you know what, Nancy,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: very possible she's still doing it, and that Ava Grace
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: doesn't even know we're looking for her.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Gosh, Tina Hopper Foolbright joining us. Ava Grace is on tape. Tina,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I've got the same feeling that David has that she
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: is alive. And I guess you, standing by watching everything unfold,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: could see this coming a mile away.
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, what happened.
• 22:59
  Speaker 14: He married her, they divorced, She went missing when she
• 23:04
  Speaker 14: was seven months pregnant. We hunted her down, we found
• 23:08
  Speaker 14: her on my space. She ran Child Protected Services, got
• 23:15
  Speaker 14: involved in Texas, She married an eighty year old man, divorced,
• 23:23
  Speaker 14: He divorced her, She ran with Ava again, and for
• 23:29
  Speaker 14: four years we chased her through the courts and then
• 23:34
  Speaker 14: CPS founder. They told my brother, if you come to Texas, you.
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: Can have her.
• 23:39
  Speaker 14: So they went to Texas to pick up Ava, and
• 23:42
  Speaker 14: the courts wouldn't let him have them. They built temporary
• 23:46
  Speaker 14: custody and from there she ran.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: You know what, Tina, you just succinctly gave me a
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: perfect picture of what's going on here. And if anybody
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: thinks that she or Ava Grace are dead. They are
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: dead wrong, because you know what Miss Tina when you
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: don't know a horse.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: Look at her track record. She's been doing.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: This as long as you guys have known her, starting
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: at seven months pregnant. Yeah, starting at seven months pregnant
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: or before that. She took off after thirty four days
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: of marriage, she took off.
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: That's the first.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Time that we know of, but I suspect this is
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: a long standing pattern. Then at seven months pregnant, she
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: takes off with the baby.
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: Child Protective Services gets involved.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Then she marries an eighty year old man, and I
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: guess at that time she was in her early thirties,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: early thirties, Okay, forget that fifty year age difference.
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: Then he divorces her. I can only imagine why.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Then you think you got her back, You're gonna get custody,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: and bam she runs. Okay, but at the get go
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: there was an agreement on custody.
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: Listen.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: After coming to an agreement on co parenting their little girl,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: it is shocked when involved and loads up little Eva.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Grayson moves to San Antonio, Texas, seven hours away from
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: David's home in Oklahoma. Hopper is not happy about the
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: decision and hires an attorney to try to work out
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: custody arrangement. The custody battle includes more than just personal
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: relationships between two people, but custodial laws between two states,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Oklahoma and Texas two.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer, both criminal and civil. See
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: that's a problem, Darryl Cohen. We've had so many cases.
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: Where children are taken across.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: State lines and then the two states, through no fault
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: of their own, are not communicating.
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: I saw it in Harmony Montgomery. I saw it in
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: Adrian Jones.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I saw it in the Turpin Family House of Horrors,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: where a family moves and moves and moves, and CPS
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: is chasing them and lose their trail.
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: And that's what's happening here.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: So Dad is hell bent that he will have his
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: daughter in his life. They work out a custody agreement,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: and mom has two stays warring Oklahoma and Texas, and
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: the girl, the baby girl gets lost in the sauce
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: between the two states.
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: Darryl Nancy.
• 26:08
  Speaker 8: This is typical of someone who believes every word that
• 26:11
  Speaker 8: they say, regardless of whether it has any semblance of
• 26:15
  Speaker 8: truth or veracity. But what we do have. Every state
• 26:19
  Speaker 8: has by a different name interference with custody. That's a
• 26:23
  Speaker 8: criminal charge that can be prosecuted. Every state has a
• 26:26
  Speaker 8: different name for that statute, but it exists and they
• 26:30
  Speaker 8: have to use that as best they can. This woman
• 26:34
  Speaker 8: is great at what she's doing. She is probably bipolar.
• 26:39
  Speaker 8: She is someone who can tell the biggest lie with
• 26:43
  Speaker 8: the most truthful face and voice and eye contact.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I guarantee she's under an assumed name, and Ava Grace
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: doesn't even know we're looking for her, doesn't even know
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: she has a father out there. I guarantee, because she
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: told the little girl that before. And we know that
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: phem speaking of an unfit mother to Dave Mac, Crime
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, did you know that the mother?
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: It's like eating a dirt sandwich.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I want to choke every time I call this woman
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: a mother was put herself on video performing a sex
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: act with Ava Grace in the background.
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: Did you know that I did.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: That's actually when CPS got involved, Nancy, because she did
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: post this solo sexual act online for all the world
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: to see.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: And then Dave Mac, so this wasn't like a video
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: disgusting video and hey, you in a video yourself having
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: sex with somebody else or yourself. Fine, I would just
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: be mad if you didn't. But that's not what happened here.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: This is a sex act with the baby there in
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: the background, and she posted it on a public plat form.
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: This isn't like.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Sending picks or sexy picks to your lover or your spouse.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: She put the video off herself in a sex act
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: with the child in the video and posted it online.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: How many pervs do you think watch that? About a
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: million times? That never occurred to me, Nancie. All I
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: could think of is my own children and business.
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: Do you think we're in this is a walk at
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: the park or not? I was really Kroger.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: I was just really thinking of this so called mother,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: you know, with her two year old child at the
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: time on the same bed while she's doing a solo
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: sex act or video online. I thought about how horrible
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: that was. I didn't even get to the perv aspect
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: of the whole thing.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Ava's dad receives a strange call one day after Ava's
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: school reports the six year old hasn't been to class
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: in well over twenty one days.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine can you imagine getting a call from
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: a school and they say.
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: Where's your little girl? Where's your six year old girl?
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: She's not only absent today, she hasn't been here for
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: twenty one days.
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: Listen.
• 29:23
  Speaker 9: Ava Grace Baldwin is a very active little girl. She
• 29:26
  Speaker 9: enjoys cheerleading, gymnastics, soccer, and tumbling. That is why it
• 29:30
  Speaker 9: is such a surprise when the principal of the private
• 29:32
  Speaker 9: school Ava Grace attends in San Antonio calls her father,
• 29:36
  Speaker 9: David Hopper, at his home in Oklahoma September seventeenth, asking
• 29:40
  Speaker 9: if he can explain why Ava Grace has missed the
• 29:42
  Speaker 9: last twenty one days of school. Hopper has no idea
• 29:45
  Speaker 9: and calls the San Antonio Police to report six year
• 29:48
  Speaker 9: old Ava Grace Baldwin missing. Police go to the address
• 29:52
  Speaker 9: listed for Ava Grace at the school and immediately.
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: Know they have a really big problem.
• 29:56
  Speaker 9: The address Katherine Baldwin put down for a home address
• 29:59
  Speaker 9: for Ava is a vacant.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Lot, police believed. When Catherine realized Hopper was going to
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: give custody, Baldwin panicked and ran off with the child.
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: Oh my stars.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Police immediately began investigating where is Avia Grace and they
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: go to the LKA last known address and it is
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: a vacant lot.
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: Tina Hopper Fulbright.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: This is Avia Grace is auntie joining me along with
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: her dad, David. Tina, when you learned the address was
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: a vacant lot, your stomach had to drop to your ankles. Yeah,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: can you I want to circle back to where we
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: were before I go off on the vacant lot. Did
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: you have any idea the bio mom was performing sex
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: acts on camera with Ava Grace in the background.
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: How did you find out about that?
• 30:57
  Speaker 14: Mister Moore, which was the eighty year old man she
• 30:59
  Speaker 14: made married his family. He divorced her through the courts
• 31:04
  Speaker 14: down in Bernie, Texas. And David was down there along
• 31:09
  Speaker 14: with my mother and they listened to the testimony and
• 31:12
  Speaker 14: that was brought up in court.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: So you had no idea this was going on until
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: you sat in on the eighty year old's divorce. What else,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: if anything, did you learn from that testimony?
• 31:27
  Speaker 6: I learned a lot.
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: I learned a lot. But everything we learned and I
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: want to hear it.
• 31:31
  Speaker 14: Tell me, well missed thirty seven days of nine weeks
• 31:37
  Speaker 14: of her kindergarten school and when they went out to
• 31:41
  Speaker 14: check welfare check on her. She had painted PoCA dots
• 31:45
  Speaker 14: all over and said that she had chicken pop. The
• 31:50
  Speaker 14: neighbor lady informed us that she give a vassalt math
• 31:53
  Speaker 14: in pure salt rock salt. I learned that when she
• 32:01
  Speaker 14: took off the Florida, she tried to give ava to
• 32:05
  Speaker 14: the people that she was staying with. She was staying
• 32:08
  Speaker 14: in a shelter. Some people had ava at three years old,
• 32:12
  Speaker 14: and she was going to leave ava in the state
• 32:14
  Speaker 14: of Florida while she come back to fight David over custody.
• 32:19
  Speaker 14: That didn't mark.
• 32:21
  Speaker 6: I learned a lot. I learned a lot.
• 32:24
  Speaker 14: A lot take hours to tell you what I learned.
• 32:29
  Speaker 6: The sad deal.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: I know that the bio mom in this case has
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: an adult daughter who is still living. Catherine Baldwin has
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: an adult daughter that, according to documents, was adopted out.
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: But that's not what you say happens. What happened to
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: her adult daughter.
• 32:48
  Speaker 14: Her adult daughter lives in California, and I'm saying she
• 32:52
  Speaker 14: sold her because that's the story that Katie told us.
• 32:56
  Speaker 14: That the people paid her money. They were her god parents,
• 33:01
  Speaker 14: and they paid her money throughout her whole time. But
• 33:04
  Speaker 14: at one time she took that child from them people
• 33:07
  Speaker 14: and took her down to Florida and kept her down
• 33:09
  Speaker 14: there for three or four months. It was an open adoption,
• 33:13
  Speaker 14: and she took her down there for three or four
• 33:15
  Speaker 14: months and took her from the people from California. So
• 33:19
  Speaker 14: she took that child too, but then she returned that child.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Catherine Baldwin has ties to several states, including Florida, and
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: Ava Grace's father, David Hopper, says there is a case
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: in Florida where Catherine Baldwin approaches a couple about taking
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: custody of Ava and raising her. The couple is shocked
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: by the offer and reach out to local law enforcement,
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: but police are unable to locate Baldwin or Ava Grace.
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Is it possible Catherine and Ava Grace are hiding in
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: plain sight? Armchair detectives claiming Catherine and Nava Baldwin are
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: on TikTok using the profile of Be Pop and Bebe.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: The TikTok videos rack up a lot of comments from
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: viewers who claim to see things in the videos that
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: lead them to believe Bibe is being trafficked due to
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: a lock seen in the bedroom they're using for filming
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: The story is even featured in a Rolling Stone magazine article, and.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: The Rolling Stone Magazine article created a big stir in
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: a search for Ava Grace. What does TikTok have to
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: do with this. Let's look at the TikTok video we're
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: talking about. This is from our friends at beebop and
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: bbe Okay.
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: Look, David, when you.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: First were told that Ava Grace had emerged on TikTok,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: what did you think?
• 34:44
  Speaker 6: I had mixed reactions about it. At the time.
• 34:47
  Speaker 7: I was glad that our cases getting more views and
• 34:53
  Speaker 7: that was coming to you know, by the public.
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: That was a good thing for it.
• 34:56
  Speaker 7: But after seeing the videos I recognized the media that
• 35:00
  Speaker 7: it wasn't her. There's just certain facial features and stuff
• 35:03
  Speaker 7: like that that you see that it was at Ada
• 35:05
  Speaker 7: and it was at Katie.
• 35:07
  Speaker 6: But the recognition brought towards Ava's case. That was a
• 35:11
  Speaker 6: good thing.
• 35:11
  Speaker 7: Because our phones blew up, I mean, emails, people calling us, messages.
• 35:16
  Speaker 6: It was it was.
• 35:17
  Speaker 7: It turned out to be a blessing because afterwards a
• 35:21
  Speaker 7: lot of national syndication news places got a hold of
• 35:26
  Speaker 7: the case. Let's even started contacting us. So in a way,
• 35:29
  Speaker 7: it was a good thing. But but it was it
• 35:31
  Speaker 7: wasn't her.
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: What about it, Tina hopperful Bright? Did you know immediately
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: it's not her?
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: I did?
• 35:37
  Speaker 15: I did, And she's not a little real competity either that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 15: We have been bombarded daily, hundreds of thousands telling us
• 35:48
  Speaker 15: that we don't care. It needs to be investigated.
• 35:50
  Speaker 14: What type of people are we that we're not going
• 35:52
  Speaker 14: to go after these videos? They have been investigated. US
• 35:57
  Speaker 14: marshals have investigated it. Ralph Garci investigated, They've been highly investigated.
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: You know what.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Tina, Ralph Garcia, you've investigated it fully.
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: What did you do to investigate it and what did
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: you learn?
• 36:11
  Speaker 12: Well, Nancy, what I did was I went ahead and
• 36:15
  Speaker 12: this research on IP addresses and stuff like that, found
• 36:19
  Speaker 12: out what city was in contacted.
• 36:21
  Speaker 11: The local police ended up getting an ID and.
• 36:28
  Speaker 12: Confirming the birth certificate in driver's license of the mother
• 36:32
  Speaker 12: who had lived in that city of her whole life.
• 36:36
  Speaker 11: There are similarities in the way they look, but it's
• 36:38
  Speaker 11: just was not her.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: A Facebook page titled Ava Grace Baldwin Hopper Letters to
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: You has been established where anyone can write letters directly
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: to Ava Grace and share missing child posters that include
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: an age progression photo of what Ava Grace might look
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: like today. Family, friends and interested individuals post good wishes
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: and thoughts and are encouraged to share the page and information.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Back to renowned clinical psychologist doctor Chloe Carmichael.
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: Doctor Chloe, when I look.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: At the mom and you know how I hate to
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: call her that she doesn't deserve that title background I would,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: and you're the shrink. But if I were a betting person,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I'm putting money on it. This woman is not dead
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: and this daughter, Avid Grace is not dead.
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: She's out there.
• 37:26
  Speaker 10: Yeah, I agree with you on that, Nancy. Obviously you
• 37:29
  Speaker 10: know we don't know, but I'm so glad that you're
• 37:31
  Speaker 10: doing this segment because I agree with you that if
• 37:34
  Speaker 10: she is alive, it's very doubtful that the mother, as
• 37:38
  Speaker 10: you say, is hard to call her that is letting
• 37:41
  Speaker 10: better know about that because there's such an incredibly narcissistic
• 37:45
  Speaker 10: quality to this, you know, so called mother. So going back,
• 37:49
  Speaker 10: it's you know, kind of graphic. But going back to
• 37:52
  Speaker 10: the information that the mother posted a video of herself
• 37:56
  Speaker 10: pleasuring herself with her daughter in the background, there's something
• 37:59
  Speaker 10: in incredibly narcissistic about that.
• 38:01
  Speaker 14: Right.
• 38:02
  Speaker 10: First of all, doing that and then posting it for
• 38:04
  Speaker 10: the public. There's kind of an incredible desire for attention there.
• 38:09
  Speaker 10: And then either she was aware her daughter was in
• 38:12
  Speaker 10: the background and thought it would generate more interest, which
• 38:15
  Speaker 10: is obviously narcissistic to use her daughter as a prop
• 38:19
  Speaker 10: that way, or if she was genuinely unaware, if she
• 38:23
  Speaker 10: would be that self absorbed that even in setting up
• 38:25
  Speaker 10: a camera of herself to do this, that she would
• 38:28
  Speaker 10: be so self absorbed that she wouldn't even think of
• 38:31
  Speaker 10: her own daughter appearing there in the frame. Either way,
• 38:35
  Speaker 10: to me, it points to just an incredible level of narcissism.
• 38:38
  Speaker 10: The mother is I must say, she looks like an
• 38:42
  Speaker 10: attractive woman. As somebody else mentioned, she seems like she
• 38:46
  Speaker 10: knows how to say the right things and you know,
• 38:49
  Speaker 10: kind of manipulate people on a certain level. And the
• 38:52
  Speaker 10: fact that she, you know, married that eighty year old
• 38:55
  Speaker 10: man with a fifty year age gap willly to run
• 38:57
  Speaker 10: out shortly afterwards. I leave somebody you know said that
• 39:01
  Speaker 10: she attempted to sell you know, a different child.
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: There's just an.
• 39:05
  Speaker 10: Incredible objectification of people, you know again, where it's like
• 39:09
  Speaker 10: she would be using her daughter as a prop you know,
• 39:12
  Speaker 10: maybe to get priority entry into these places, or you know,
• 39:16
  Speaker 10: God forbid whatever. You know she's guiding her daughter into
• 39:19
  Speaker 10: at this point. So I join everybody here with hopes
• 39:23
  Speaker 10: and prayers that maybe this segment will even raise just
• 39:27
  Speaker 10: that last bit of awareness that's needed. Ava Grace. If
• 39:29
  Speaker 10: you're out there, please there's how.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: You know to David Hopper or Auntee Hopper Fulbright, the
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: father and aunt of Ava Grace. If you don't know
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen, you look at what has already happened.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: She's already sold one daughter, she's already tried to sell
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Ava Grace, and we know that. So it's very possible
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: that right now a family has Ava Grace and they
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: think they're protecting her from the mother.
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: They don't even know you exist.
• 40:02
  Speaker 6: David, Yeah, that's that's true.
• 40:04
  Speaker 7: And I said with the first time I got to
• 40:07
  Speaker 7: see Ava, I was in San Antonio after a court
• 40:10
  Speaker 7: after a court meeting. But uh, she was just surprised
• 40:12
  Speaker 7: because she kept savings the pictures you see us in
• 40:15
  Speaker 7: the pool.
• 40:15
  Speaker 6: She is going, you're my daddy, You're my daddy. And
• 40:19
  Speaker 6: she didn't even.
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: Know she had a dad.
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: No, she did that's what her mother told her.
• 40:24
  Speaker 7: So yeah, there's chances of we have a letter from
• 40:27
  Speaker 7: the people in Florida that were they were they Katie
• 40:30
  Speaker 7: tried to give her give them custody of Aba and
• 40:32
  Speaker 7: they apologize it.
• 40:33
  Speaker 6: If we had known, we would have taken her a.
• 40:35
  Speaker 7: Gun, do you So, Yeah, there's a chance today that she,
• 40:38
  Speaker 7: you know, Katie might not even have her anymore. And
• 40:43
  Speaker 7: it's not that maybe she's protecting her from the mother,
• 40:46
  Speaker 7: which is that's possible, but there's no ton of what
• 40:49
  Speaker 7: she has told other people about me and my family.
• 40:53
  Speaker 7: Uh so we me Katie. She's a manipulator, she's she's
• 40:57
  Speaker 7: a compulsive liar. She has eleven different alias as we've doubt.
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: So there's there's.
• 41:02
  Speaker 7: Things that I don't know. There's a chance she might
• 41:07
  Speaker 7: not be with the mother right now. And you asked me,
• 41:10
  Speaker 7: how do we get by? How do I get by? Daiies?
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: Sometimes that's a thought that comes in my mind. Hopefully
• 41:15
  Speaker 6: she's with somebody that keep her safe.
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 41:18
  Speaker 7: We know that Katie throughout her life has always had
• 41:20
  Speaker 7: to have a caretaker.
• 41:21
  Speaker 6: Basically.
• 41:22
  Speaker 7: In fact, the older man, mister Morgan that she married,
• 41:25
  Speaker 7: she when I first heard of him, she told me
• 41:27
  Speaker 7: it was her grandpa.
• 41:28
  Speaker 14: Uh.
• 41:29
  Speaker 7: I mean, there's just all these different stories and stuff,
• 41:32
  Speaker 7: but yeah, he was supposed to apparently been married to
• 41:34
  Speaker 7: her grandma at one time, and that's that's how I
• 41:38
  Speaker 7: knew about him. But uh, it's just it's all manipulation.
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: I got a question for you, Tana.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, when you look at her track record, she
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: has probably sold Aba Grace and Ama Grace, I pray
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: to God is being raised by a family that wanted her,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: and they have no idea that there there's a dad
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: out there desperately trying to connect with his bio daughter
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: that he loves. They probably think they're protecting her front
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: baby from the mother, and so they are, you know,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: death con four totally under the radar.
• 42:19
  Speaker 14: It's either that or they're afraid of the mother they're
• 42:22
  Speaker 14: afraid of. Because you cross Katie, you pay consequences for it.
• 42:28
  Speaker 14: I have found this out too, the people that she
• 42:32
  Speaker 14: wanted to give Aba to in Florida. On her way
• 42:35
  Speaker 14: back to Texas, she called the little girl, the woman
• 42:38
  Speaker 14: who had a child Ava's age, and asked her, did
• 42:41
  Speaker 14: your husband see.
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: My daughter naked?
• 42:44
  Speaker 8: Well?
• 42:44
  Speaker 14: That really like scared the girl because yeah, he's seen
• 42:48
  Speaker 14: her naked. He helped bathe their children, and he would
• 42:51
  Speaker 14: get Aba out of the bathtub.
• 42:53
  Speaker 13: Two.
• 42:53
  Speaker 14: And you know what you do when you got small kids.
• 42:56
  Speaker 14: You get diapers, you get pajamas, you put them to bed.
• 43:00
  Speaker 14: But she threatens people. She even does this. Her own
• 43:04
  Speaker 14: brother was afraid to be alone with Ava because of
• 43:09
  Speaker 14: what Katie may say.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Wow, somewhere out there is Ava Grace. And I agree
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: with mister Hopper. There is no substitute.
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: For a dad, your dad.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: And if she can only have you for one year,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: five years, ten years, twenty years, it'd be better. It
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: would be better than never having you at all. If
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: you know or you think you know anything about Missing Grace,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: we are showing you age progressed photos. Now please dial
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: San Antonio PD two one zero to zero seven seven
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: six six zero to one zero to zero seven seven
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: six six zero. We can bring Ava Grace home. We
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: remember an American hero police officer, Thomas Devlin, Boston College PD,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: passed away in a line of duty after twenty one
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: years of service. Le's behind wife turned widow, Patricia daughter
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Christine American hero police officer Thomas Devlin.
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,