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E38: All In - A Conversation with Nathan Hicks · The Junto Podcast

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Hello, America. Welcome to the Junto Podcast, where we promote the practical
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applications of critical thinking and bold creativity.
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I am your host, Edgar Mills. Thanks for joining.
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Hey America, welcome back to episode 38.
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This episode is entitled All In with Nathan Hicks, my good buddy.
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So this is a unique episode in that he and I sat down together to record episodes, not an interview.
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We just had a conversation about what it means to be all in.
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So I hope you enjoy it. And here it is.
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Yeah, this is different for me
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because I typically have notes ad nauseum when I sit down. Me too, I do.
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We have an outline that we scratched together five minutes ago.
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So let's talk about how we came to be here and we can go back.
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I don't ever know what level of personal information people enjoy,
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but sometimes it's more than I deliver.
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So I'm going to share with the folks how we met. All right, let's do it.
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I got an email out of nowhere from this guy, Edgar Mills, that moved to Rome
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and he's got a shooting instruction business and he wants to explore,
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you know, creative collaboration.
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And I remember I was in a meeting with our program director when it popped up.
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I don't know if it was an email or Facebook message.
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I was like, what? Who is this and how are we?
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Guns are no part of what we do and that's fine. But, and yeah,
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you, you are much more creative in
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your thinking than i am at times and eventually we met
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and then we have since collaborated on
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stuff and become friends along the way is that your is that an accurate recollection
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yeah well because i'm always thinking it ain't just guns for me and it's right
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i got guns and then i got the other stuff i was thinking the other stuff yeah
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but it's all under osprey shooting i didn't know the other stuff at the time right yeah so yeah,
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Because I reached out to you, I sent you an email just because I saw, I saw your storefront.
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So I looked it up online and I sent an email. When Stuart still had the bike
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shop, I went in there and came up and said, hey man.
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Let's do something. Because I used to ride bikes. That's my thing.
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And I thought, minimum, he's an outdoor guy. He's got to be.
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So we can do something. Yeah. And that's what I thought. Yeah, minimum.
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I know they do, it looks like mountaineering. It looks like at least kayaking,
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because I saw kayaks in the store.
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It's like, we can do something. Yeah. Little did you know, a lot of the pieces
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of that puzzle were already connected. Yeah. I didn't know. No, I had no idea.
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But I'm glad it was, because it made life a little bit better for me.
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Yeah, well, it has made it better for me. Yeah. While I think I'm building a
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network, I was just punching my way into it.
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Typical Green Beret style. Sort of. Yeah. So that's globally how we came to be here.
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And then specifically, I did a recorded podcast earlier in the fall on my experience
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running Mid-State Mile back in June.
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And I talked about, I won't rehash the whole thing, but I talked about when
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it came time for me to stop running. part of the reason was because I had other
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obligations the following week is a busy time in the calendar for us.
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And that event wasn't worth me burying myself in such a way that I was going
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to pay the consequences of it for days later.
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And I said something about conversation on the back end of that with someone
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else about what does it mean to be all in.
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Yep. You said that was the phrase right there. That's what caught my attention.
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And I probably didn't even hear the follow-on sentences for that because I heard
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that phrase and then I thought, man, what does it mean to be all in?
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That's a big one. It is. And then I immediately thought, that's a whole podcast episode right there.
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Probably the same day when I listened to the podcast, I called you and said,
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hey, man, can I use this? Yeah.
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And I said, yes. And then I said, well, hold on a minute. Yeah.
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Always looking for content for myself. I was like, what if we just sit down and talk about it? Yeah.
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I think it's good. So that's how we came to be here. So what I think is, how do you define all in?
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It's very subjective. I think we both agree. Yeah. And I said,
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I think we should define it academically first. So simple, I don't know,
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Oxford dictionary terms, if that were just a single word, I guess would be,
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full commitment and the highest priority of, of your time and efforts.
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I mean, in a very generic term.
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I scratched something down last night and I said that it meant to,
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to be giving as much of oneself as possible to a certain thing while taking
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into consideration one's general station or vocation in life and the specific
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areas of responsibility therein.
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Holy moly. Very eloquent. I was trying to. But the problem is I don't,
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And we're going to get to this, I'm sure, but not everybody takes in consideration the other aspects.
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Some guys are all in. Yes.
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Forsaking all else. Right. And there's a time and a place for that.
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Yeah, no, there is for sure.
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Well, what's been, so if that's our, I think each of those are kind of chipping
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away at the same thing. Yeah. Those are our working definitions.
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Just kick around context, either that you and I have experienced,
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where we've kind of had to suss out what does it mean to be all in,
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or it doesn't have to be limited to things that you and I have done.
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Well, yeah. Well, let's talk generally family, right? The first thing we got there is, yeah.
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What does it mean to be all in for family?
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So, I'll give an example. My dad, now we weren't a very emotional crew.
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The Mills boys, but I would define my dad as being all in for family.
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So much so that is, no, my mom and dad divorced early. He remarried to a lady.
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He, he put so much effort and support into the broad family.
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Not, not just me, but like uncles and, or his brothers and sisters and everything.
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He was all in for the, for the Mills family.
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So much so that it kept him broke and his His wife eventually left him pretty much because of it.
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Now, what that meant to me growing up was,
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Well, throughout our different aspects of life, like we all lived in the same
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house half the time, like literally eight people in a three bedroom house, that kind of thing.
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And my bedroom was the couch for a few years there.
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But he was not going to let anyone in the Mills family go down in flames,
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even sometimes despite their input, you know what I mean? Even if it was because of their actions.
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Right. Which was a certain uncle who remained nameless. Yeah.
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So all I got from that when I was growing up, I didn't get any deep,
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altruistic, selfless thing.
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It was just the way he was, and it was the way it was. Dad was the guy who helped.
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And my uncle David was also, he died in 91 or 90, 91, I think.
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He was the older brother. My dad was the, there was an older sister and then
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my dad was the next, but yeah, he died.
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So once he died, my dad took on a whole bunch of taking care of family type stuff.
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Anyway, he was all in, right? What I saw was, it was just, we were a close family. Yeah.
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That was it. I mean, we stopped, you stopped by your grandma's house just on
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the way home from work or just because. Just, just to pop in. Yeah.
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Make sure. Right. All right. Well, you got that characteristic from your dad
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then, didn't you? I mean, I see that.
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Well, I don't know, but that's how my dad was anyway. Yeah. But so that's what
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I call being all in for family, right?
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And to the detriment of his marriage. Hmm.
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So was it good or was it not? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
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I mean, it, it, and again, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to speak in a vacuum
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because already we're getting into trying to place the right ifs on which priority. Right. Yeah.
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And, and that it's sometimes difficult to do that even when it's coming from
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a generous charitable place.
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Yeah. Well, then there's priorities. Right. There's some people that just can't
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prioritize their daily routine.
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I can't, I can't with the, I skipped the gym yesterday.
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I had an appointment with Hamza and you missed it and the guy had on the range.
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We were, we're both talkers and went, well, we went long anyway on the training
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and then we talking about things.
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Hamza's going to make you pay for it. He makes it. Yeah. He, you know what?
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He's so, he's so kind and he's like a gentle guy. He is.
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Until he tells you just, until you got these stupid bands around your knees.
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Just lift this, do the, yeah, yeah.
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Well, you know, family, when you brought it up, when I think of my,
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one of an example I give often with my childhood is, is that the way it played
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out for me, it was kind of stereotypical or traditional ideal in a lot of ways
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for the, when we were younger children,
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my mom worked from home. She took care of us.
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My dad worked and they made whatever sacrifices financially they need to,
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to do to make that happen.
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I remember my dad was a CPA and I remember a lot of childhood things that he
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wasn't there for because it's busy season and I've got to go do people's tax
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returns. But I never felt slighted.
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I never felt like he wasn't showing up for me. And I can only credit that to
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just the way that they balanced the things.
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And I knew the reasons why he wasn't there if he was there and, you know. That's good.
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So all in, yeah, I guess it did strike some sort of balance.
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Well, it sounded like he was able to prioritize work life and home life and all that.
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You had coffee right there. I don't think the video will pick it up,
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but just like, there you go.
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Well, we've, you know, I said to you on the phone the other day that you've
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lived this all in as a kind of
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a necessary requirement of your chosen profession for a number of years.
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All in looked very different for you because you were not in proximity to family.
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Right, yeah. They were still obviously there and a consideration for you,
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but you're across the world. Yeah, that's right. A lot of that going on.
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If anybody asked me, I would have said family first while I was gone. Right.
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And I was gone a lot, especially my first few years in SF was,
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that's when they squeeze in all the schools and all the stuff,
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you know, like the first couple of years.
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So even if you're not deployed, you're gone to a school. Yeah,
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you're going, going, going.
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And we were in Germany at that, which means you got to go somewhere else all the time.
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Yeah. So I was gone a lot. I would have said family first. Now-
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That's not a hundred percent true because I was kind of wild,
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you know, drinking with the boys and things like that.
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But I don't know. We're about to get in some deep nuance here,
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but I'll, any day, any time would die for my family.
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Right. To keep them from harm.
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But would you not go out with your buddy you hadn't seen in three years. Right.
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To come home and. And pound a couple gallons of Guinness. Yeah.
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You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So, yeah.
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There's, I would say, yeah, I'm all in for my family, 100%. And I've mellowed
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and matured and all those things.
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But, yeah, yeah, priorities.
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It's difficult. Yeah. Yeah.
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And we're probably going to say the word balance 8 million times throughout
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this. Yeah. It's a difficult balance.
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Another example, and I think I've probably talked about it in podcasts.
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You mentioned a fitness endeavor where there's a big training block involved
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to try to, you know, get the outcome that you want when it comes time to do the event.
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And it's the same. I mean, I feel, I just feel a lot of, I don't know if responsibility,
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I don't know what the right word is,
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to sort out the tension where even when that is higher on the priority list,
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it still is not ultimately the priority.
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I'll still, I'll ditch a run if something pops up at work that's important enough,
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or if something at family goes, you know, goes differently than expected that day and I need to.
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But then there are also days where, no, I'm going to kind of hold on to that run.
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Well, that's the question. Are you all in? I think you can, yeah.
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Even if you skip the run. Right.
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Because ultimately, I don't care what it is. Ultimately, I think family issues
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take. Yeah, they kind of had the second Trump card. Yeah.
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I listen, when I listen to you and, or when I'm listening to John,
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his podcast, him and Becca.
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To do all the training up to one of these ridiculous runs, I say ridiculous
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because I'm never going to do anything like that.
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I just don't see it ever.
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You have to be all in. You can't be in my shape right now and be like,
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oh, yeah, man, I'm going to go do a 100-miler with Nathan.
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Well, I would say in that context, all in at least means that it's consuming
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a fair bit of mental energy.
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Because if, if something, if I'm trying to arrange the week so that I don't
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miss a workout, or if I see that I'm going to have to miss one and I'm trying
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to reprioritize, okay, well, if I'm, if I'm missing one, which one should I
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miss? And it's kind of a constant shuffling.
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So in the least it occupies from the time that I say with certainty,
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I'm going to sign up and run this thing to the day that comes all
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in at least means I'm thinking about it all the time and
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trying to shuffle the cards in such a way so that family isn't
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neglected work isn't neglected and i get the workout in and
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i do all that without losing my mind yeah no i
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that's a big thing that's a big bite but with that comes when this is just my
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own neuroses but when i miss something then it brings up the commitment question
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you know what i mean like just questioning Then I'm like, well,
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if I really want it, if I skipped it.
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Yeah, man, I don't know. I don't know. There's some guys out there.
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I don't know. I think Kurt is a, he's an all or all in kind of dude. Yeah.
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100%. Do you want to, your listeners are familiar with him.
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Mine aren't. Do you want to give a. Kurt. Yeah. So he, he's local here to Rome.
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He's a professional shooter now is what he does.
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He's also a green beret and we're, we're working together on this range.
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Project he's a physical superhero so and when he trains for a mat like he does
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the tactical games that's his thing right now.
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That's all he does. Yeah. I don't know what his, I don't know how back his wife is. Yeah.
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But I know that that's the only thing that he's thinking about.
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Like literally nothing else going on. Right.
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Like, Kurt, we need to have a meeting. We need to talk about,
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well, man, I want to be at the gym for like this eight hour blog.
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Holy cow. Yeah, man, he's all in. Yeah. I don't know.
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I mean, he's told me before, I don't remember the round count,
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but he wakes up in dry fires a certain number of times before he can have breakfast. Yeah, yeah.
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That's, that's commitment, right? So he's a disciplined guy too,
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you know, he was a collegiate athlete and all this stuff.
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But that's, I look at that and that's the definition of all in to me.
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But he's also like a stoic, quiet dude that doesn't talk very much.
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Even when you're in a social setting, he doesn't talk that much.
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So I don't know what his priorities are, you know, how his priorities shape out in his brain. Yeah.
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So I don't know, man. He's what I call all in. Yeah, for sure.
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When I think of it in my mind, I'm like, yeah, Kurt is all in. Yeah.
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Whatever it is. So that it's not even for a thing. Right.
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My thing is the range. Mm-hmm. I think about, I dream, I could pitch my range
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business to you right now in my sleep.
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If somebody whispered range, I'd roll over and just start, yeah,
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it was going to have 500 yards or 200, 900 yards.
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I would just pitch it. It's thought out. Yeah. And I've, and I've been literally
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thinking, my wife says since 2008 is I've been started, first started talking
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about building my own ranch. Really? Really?
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I know that in 2010, I put stuff on paper. Okay. Well, she's probably right
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then. On digits, I put stuff on paper. Yeah.
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In 2017, we became a proper LLC.
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And here it is, almost 26, and still don't have a freaking range. So is that all in?
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Well, but you were still active in the military at the time.
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Yeah, that's right. I mean. Until 2020.
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So. So 2020, but I mean, there's still a move.
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There's getting there's relocating there's forward
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motion there's forward motion and that's what keeps me
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sane is that there's forward motion yeah but
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i think even in that there's this myth that if you're all in it's going
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to equate to results at a in a compressed timeline which isn't yeah accurate
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you're right so that kind of leads us into our next thing there yeah just because
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you're all in don't guarantee success right right don't guarantee anything yeah
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you got to have of nevermind just your, your commitment,
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your all in commitment, you, you got to have the, the knowledge and skill and
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relationships and just sometimes luck even maybe. Right. Or divine intervention. Right.
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To, to make things go in the way you think they should be going.
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I told you about the email I got last night. Yeah. To me, that's like a positive
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step forward and with a strategic relationship.
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Right. And I would argue it comes as a byproduct of the result of your work
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over years, and it's not something that you can factor into the equation on
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your own. Right. You know what I mean?
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Well, let's step into faith a little bit. Yeah. I'm not...
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I barely scratched the surface, but I feel like when it's right,
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that's when it happens when it's right. If you're doing everything right. Right.
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So maybe I haven't been doing everything right all day. That's why it's so slow. I don't know.
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Yeah. Or maybe I'm not ready for, I don't know, man.
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But I do believe that things happen the way the divine path and we just may
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or not, may not understand it.
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No, I think we definitely don't understand it. I mean, I think the trap there
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is that if it's not happening, you're doing something wrong.
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And that's probably an oversimplification. That could be what's happening,
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but I don't think it's always.
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And so in the same, I guess the other side of the coin is just because it happens,
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maybe it was a direct result of you doing something right.
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Maybe it was the Lord just saying like, here you go. If you don't figure it out by now.
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I'm going to slide this in.
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Yeah, that's a tricky one, but I do agree that it's, there are things that often
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need to happen or do happen that it's no direct result of our labor for all. Yeah, right.
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There's, there's other forces at work for sure. But there's this,
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you know, we kind of talked, talked a minute ago, mentioned this,
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some of the myths that are out there.
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I'm bad or good, depending on how you want to say it. I have a habit of deconstructing
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things that I see on social media.
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And it doesn't take a lot. I mean, it just takes a little bit of paying attention
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and you can see inconsistencies in what people post.
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And I wonder these people with massive followings, am I the only one that sees
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that this person said he's all in, he's going to commit to run X number of miles
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per day for the rest of the year and then...
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Maybe you get one other mention that's just crickets, and I'm like,
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how's that running going?
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Are you following through? Are you as all in as you, like you got the social
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credit for mentioning it, and you got the attaboys, but are you still doing it?
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So I'm pretty, like I said, I have a habit of deconstructing narratives that
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I see, but there are some myths I think perpetuated about what it means to be
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all in, how, you know, quote unquote easy it is to be all in.
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And, and I just think it sets you up for a bad time.
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Or easy, but yes, not, maybe not even how easy it is, but how simple it's simple versus easy, right?
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Well, all you have to do is commit everything.
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Oh, okay. Right. That's a lot to commit.
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Well, yeah. Why not? Why don't you? Yeah. I, I don't, you know,
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I don't follow the, the influencers very much, man.
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There's like three guys shooting guys that I follow for their,
21:26
for their technical delivery, not, you know, and they don't do sexy content anyway.
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Just very informative. Other than that, I'm going to bring Hamza up again.
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That's one of the reasons I like working out with him.
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He's not a Jim bro. No. He's just a quiet.
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But he's got the chops to be. Oh yeah. Oh, he could. Yeah. Yeah.
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He's a beast. Yeah. An absolute beast.
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But it's just like, all right, do this a thousand times now.
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So what that does for me is, well, it's all me.
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It ain't Hamza's hype or anything. You know what I'm saying?
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Right. It's not false hype. I was never one for the false motivation anyway. Yeah.
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That was a catchphrase in the army. False motivation is better than no motivation.
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Oh, I don't know. I beg to differ. Yeah, you got to find the real thing.
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I don't need, motivation isn't even much of a thing for me.
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Priorities is what I call it. Yeah. I just have a priority. Well,
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you're motivated to do that. Well, it's my priority. It's just what I'm going
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to do. Right. It ain't a motivation factor.
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But, yeah, the influencers...
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Yeah, and some of these guys are incredibly talented or incredibly fit or some
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incredibly skilled even.
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But it just seems somehow, I don't know, man, disingenuous.
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Well, I think part of it for me is once someone has achieved a level of success,
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at least financially, then there are resources at their disposal to make All
22:56
In look very different for them.
22:58
Yes, there we go, resources. And when you have the resource of time by way of,
23:03
I have someone that takes my kids to school. I have a cook.
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I have a personal assistant. I have someone that kind of helps run my life.
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Then suddenly I'm not going grocery shopping. I'm not doing laundry.
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I'm not, I'm not doing a lot of things that the regular person like you and
23:20
I factor in and good for them.
23:22
That's, it's nothing that it's not a bad thing that they've achieved that level
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of success. It just means that their recipe doesn't work for me and I shouldn't
23:32
judge myself against their recipe.
23:35
Right. Absolutely. That's it. Cause everybody's got, everybody's cooking something
23:40
different. Right. Right.
23:41
Yeah. We've got different ingredients to work with. Everybody's cooking something different.
23:46
I'm not trying to match what anybody else is doing in any way.
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I'm not trying to be overtly different either. I'm just, we're just individuals with different.
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Different paths, different backgrounds, different resources,
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and good on the dudes who, I don't know, grew up in the hood and you struggled
24:07
through and now you're a wild success. That's awesome.
24:11
But that blueprint doesn't fit for everyone at all. And even a lot of people.
24:18
I don't like the mindset. I don't like to use the word mindset very much.
24:24
But in my other, you know, in the two team guy stuff, it's leadership development and team building.
24:30
And there's, you can learn how to think about things in different ways a little bit, but...
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Yeah, the recipe, the blueprint, it just, it doesn't match everyone.
24:40
I can't go out and do the same thing that, you know, some, some,
24:44
some of these guys have done because there's different factors from good decisions
24:50
or bad decisions in the past.
24:51
Who knows what, but that's, that's everyone. Yeah. Everyone.
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So yeah, those, those, those influencers, I get the feeling,
25:01
maybe it's just a personal feeling, but I don't know if there's any evidence,
25:04
but I think they're starting.
25:06
Lose juice like that whole thing starting to
25:09
lose a little juice but then the smart ones are pivoting
25:12
to try to to i'm a little
25:14
cynical they're pivoting to to communicate
25:18
something that now seems more authentic and
25:21
less packaged but yeah but i still seem to
25:24
deconstruct it in such a way that it seems artificial i talked
25:27
about that a little bit on one of the episodes i did citizen
25:31
journalism and all that i talked about some of these
25:34
famous news people who are now like doing podcasts
25:37
out of their basement yeah but but
25:40
it's never mind there's still a production yeah it's just right and they're
25:44
trying to they're trying to throw out that authenticity card yeah meanwhile
25:48
the makeup guys back there put them on yeah i think though i think authenticity
25:51
is proven over a long period of time right yeah you can yeah yeah that's right
25:56
here's i just had this thought do you think i'll played,
26:00
I don't know if it's devil's advocate, but at least consider.
26:04
Something that I haven't until now. Do you think the fact that you and I are
26:08
where we are in life, meaning like we're generally okay, inhibits our... Generally. Generally.
26:15
I think we could each rattle off ways that we could be a lot better,
26:18
but neither one of us are wondering where we're going to, what we're going to
26:22
eat tonight, where our meals are coming from. Right, now and now we are in the
26:24
first world, yeah, first world problems. Right.
26:26
Me and you have first world problems. But when I think of someone that,
26:29
that is coming out of a background that's far different, whether it's poverty
26:33
or addiction or whatever,
26:35
the need to be all in and kind of forsake whatever comes from being all in is heightened.
26:43
And so, you know, I think of an example of someone who didn't grow up with a
26:47
family that they knew loved them.
26:51
Maybe they grew up and there was bad things all around and they committed,
26:55
I'm not, I'm getting out of this.
26:57
Probably all in for them look different. It looks different.
27:01
Yeah. And I mean, we were talking about fitness.
27:04
That's a little super, I mean, it's not, that's a lifestyle really,
27:07
but fitness is a little superficial compared to I'm trying to escape sexual
27:14
abuse or something like that.
27:16
So yeah, that all in might be a little more, I swear I'm tangible, but like more emphasis.
27:23
Right a willingness to yeah to
27:26
end to take whatever comes with right yeah
27:29
yeah focusing on a singular thing yeah man i yeah that's
27:33
a very different context but yeah man people who are working their way from
27:37
like that whatever the lowest of the low is they're all in is probably completely
27:44
different and it might have very different consequences like failure has different
27:48
If you go to do a hundred miler and don't finish it,
27:52
your feet hurt and you're tired for a week.
27:55
Homeless guy goes all in and don't finish it. He's in a winter's coming.
28:01
You know what I mean? Yeah.
28:02
Yeah. So yeah, I think different potential consequences create a different...
28:08
I don't know, man. Motivation. Yeah.
28:11
And I think a willingness to forego whatever comes with being all in.
28:15
I mean, you know, part of the, that working definition was giving consideration
28:19
to the responsibilities that come with all of, all of the hats that you wear in life.
28:24
And if you're, if you kind of, you know, more or less say the only hat I'm wearing
28:29
is getting out of poverty and having a roof over my head and,
28:32
and consistent food to eat, then you kind of don't care whatever else.
28:37
Yeah. You let go by the wayside to make that happen. Yeah, I can see that.
28:42
And for, yeah, I can see that. And then on the other end of that,
28:47
though, is people who are not in that situation.
28:50
People who pursue a hobby with absolute, 100% all in gusto and then neglect their other duties.
28:59
Because there are other duties. There are. Especially if you got kids or a job.
29:05
Like me and you are kind of fortunate that my job is whatever I say it is. Yeah.
29:12
At some point, if I'm not making money, I've got to start. Right.
29:16
There's at least the myth of flexibility. There's some flexibility in a way.
29:20
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
29:23
But you could forsake things that. Well, I've had a couple of thoughts.
29:29
One, that there are people that are often, that may be addicted to work and
29:35
may be addicted is too strong of a word, but they can be all in at work because
29:38
it's in an area that they enjoy.
29:41
They're, they're using their talents in a way that they appreciate,
29:44
that they enjoy. They're appreciated by work.
29:46
They're getting nothing but good feedback at work.
29:49
And then they come home and it's like, well, I don't really care what you did
29:52
at work. This needs to be done. This needs to be done.
29:55
You know, you're just dad or you're just husband. Well, one,
29:57
I don't think addiction is too strong a word for that. Yeah.
30:00
I think that fits because yeah, if, if everybody loves you cause you're awesome
30:05
and you do great and everybody's like, man, you're doing so,
30:08
it feels real good. Yeah. And then you get kicked in the balls when you get home.
30:12
It's easy to work on a 15-hour day when everyone's... Now, look, I'm not...
30:17
This may be too personal. I'm going to not throw in my son under the bus because
30:21
I admire what he's doing.
30:23
But he, my older son is a firefighter.
30:26
He's an advanced EMT, but he's also in paramedic school right now.
30:32
So that, that means he goes and does a 24 hour. Then he comes home and works
30:37
on an ambulance as a pair, as a EMT.
30:40
And then on his other only day off, he's in paramedic school.
30:45
And then he gets up the next morning and goes to firefighting for 24 hours again. Does it all over.
30:53
And he made the decision to do that for a longer term thing, goal. Right.
30:59
But meanwhile, his wife's stressed out. Yeah. She's dealing with four kids. Mm-hmm.
31:05
And he pops in for four or five hours. Gotta go. Disrupts life and then he's out again. Yeah.
31:14
And meanwhile, yeah. So he's all in, he loves his job and he works two jobs.
31:21
You ain't getting rich being a firefighter.
31:22
So he's working two jobs, which it's consuming, but he's doing all the right
31:27
things as far as taking care of his family of he's all in. Yeah.
31:33
Like he's committed. That's it. We're, and I tell my wife this,
31:36
we're almost 30 years we've been married.
31:39
And anytime the word divorce gets tossed around, I'm like, no,
31:43
no, we're like that. This is life and death. Yeah. So.
31:47
We'll figure it out. And that's the way it's been our whole. Yeah.
31:50
Well, I mean, it, you know. Marriage. In your son's example,
31:53
all in, in that case, hopefully I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that it is.
31:58
It was a decision he and his wife made and said, look, this is going to be really
32:01
rough for a little while.
32:03
I hope that they made it together. Yeah.
32:06
And hopefully on the other side of all of this, it lets up a little.
32:11
And there's more financial stability. I think that's what they're looking to.
32:14
And I'm a paramedic now versus an EMT.
32:15
I think that's what they're looking to. And I think that will play out the way he hopes it will.
32:21
Because he's doing good. He's good.
32:24
He's one of the higher level students in the paramedic piece of it.
32:30
Would your wife have said the same thing about you when you were at SF?
32:34
She did. Go do those things. You pop in for a minute.
32:36
No, she was all, she was all in. Yeah. Yeah. She was on board.
32:40
She supported me 100% all the time, every time.
32:44
Because we discovered early in my life, the mills, and I'm going to attribute
32:50
this not to my dad but my mom.
32:52
We kind of have a forceful personality or not forceful, maybe.
32:58
Big personality. Big personality. In a no frills way.
33:02
My, it's all about job satisfaction for me.
33:05
Money is whatever if I can pay the bills life is good I have to have some fulfillment
33:12
in my job we discovered that very early in the game and she was like okay,
33:20
Didn't drive them. Do what you got to do. Yeah. And we made a decision for her
33:24
not to work because of the kids.
33:26
So I think our kids are well adjusted because of that.
33:29
But they did go to public school, but we were very active.
33:34
Well, I was active when I was home. She was active all the time.
33:36
All the time. And proactive and vigilant.
33:40
So she supported every bit of it. And now she supports the range begrudgingly,
33:47
but she can see that like, yeah, if we get this thing done it's a good thing
33:51
well because i'm doing obviously i'm doing a range for legacy right i want zeke
33:56
to be the right guy running a show like in two years three years like what.
34:04
So anyway yeah your what your family's
34:07
got so you're all in can be yours right is
34:10
it your family's yeah and that and if not
34:13
create a whole bunch of fiction friction yeah well
34:17
i think you know to whatever degree i have flexibility in
34:20
my job now and there sometimes i would argue i still don't
34:23
it it's come on the back of early on there
34:26
was none i mean whatever higher ground needed
34:29
higher ground got and that was a decision tanya and i made when we started it
34:34
and you know once before we hired a program director there's kind of run up
34:38
where you're just increasing the capacity of the organization as much as you
34:43
can you still don't have the money to bring someone else on but You're like, if we work really hard,
34:47
we might can squirrel some away, bring someone else on.
34:50
So in that period of a year or two, if there was a thing happening, I was there.
34:55
And then I was doing all the back end stuff as well with her involvement, of course, too.
35:01
And so I think of that now, I would say it's still, I'm no less busy.
35:07
It just looks different.
35:09
And on some days I can arrange the busyness to suit other parts of my life. That's how it is.
35:15
I joke it is a joke but I tell people if I if I were able to pay myself hourly
35:20
I'd be a friggin millionaire oh yeah cause I.
35:24
I log in hours, man. Yeah. Like I'm behind the computer, either building curriculums
35:30
or fricking advertisements or outlines for, I don't know, even the podcast.
35:36
Just a lot.
35:39
Well, we were having a conversation last night, a brief one about that.
35:43
I mean, there is, in a marriage anyway, there's the hope that you can figure
35:48
out a way to construct life so that each of you have the ability to be all in
35:52
and things that you want to be.
35:54
Yeah. if your spouse has things that he or she want to do,
35:59
they're not a conflict with one another or where there is conflict of time or
36:03
whatever you sort it out so that each of you can live a life that you feel is
36:08
fulfilling and challenging.
36:09
And I envy those, those few who like opened the business together that they
36:15
both love and they both. Yeah. That's awesome, man.
36:21
My wife don't care about shooting. She's like, yeah, I want a gun in the house.
36:25
So when you're gone and she shoots well even, I bet those people,
36:31
they would have their own stories of how it's hard working alongside one another every day.
36:37
Yeah, probably a whole different set of problems. Yeah.
36:41
Yeah. Family, man. So priorities. Yeah. How do you be all in on your thing?
36:49
And then give the appropriate amount of time to your family and kids,
36:54
especially young kids who are still in their formidable family.
36:58
Four, five, six, seven years old, et cetera. Early development.
37:02
I think there's an aspect of, one, trying to get the formula as close to right as it can be.
37:09
And I think it's a moving target and right is anything but static.
37:14
And it probably changes daily, if not hourly in some cases. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
37:19
But in theory, one would hope that if I get the mix right,
37:24
then whatever I'm sacrificing at work to be home with family is going to make
37:29
me better at work, whatever I'm sacrificing for family or vice versa.
37:35
You know, we kind of become more well-rounded and better individuals,
37:38
which make us better in all areas of life. Yeah.
37:42
I'm sure the perfect balance exists for someone in some novel somewhere.
37:48
Yeah. Otherwise, in real life, I don't think there's a perfect,
37:50
like you said, I think it's.
37:54
Of the minute right almost like a sliding scale is changing and with that i
37:59
would i mean i would also say the more specific your aspiration in one area
38:03
of life probably the less that's possible and if you think of kirk as example
38:07
he has really specific goals that require a tremendously,
38:13
high level of execution yeah yep and it
38:16
probably does result in less of what
38:19
some people would call a balanced life it's maybe it's
38:22
tilted heavily toward one way and that's just he and his wife's
38:26
that they've got to sort out what family looks like for them in light of
38:28
that yeah and maybe they're normal and that's
38:31
a whole nother thing is your normal ain't the
38:34
same as my normal changes same as kurt's normal right
38:37
and that's the thing we talk about my family all
38:40
the time anytime anybody says the word normal everybody
38:43
stops and goes well define that right yeah what is that exactly because i know
38:50
you know i can name you 10 of my friends nobody has the same right like you
38:57
know life like it's all different than relationships and just everything man,
39:03
so and that's one of the reasons i'm i'm always carrying on about radical individualism
39:10
you know we're all it don't matter whether you want to be an individualist or
39:13
not you're an individual I mean, unique in every way.
39:17
And somebody else's answer just ain't our answer. Doesn't work. Nope.
39:22
But it's challenging because I would imagine there are people that know us either,
39:27
know us well or know us casually.
39:30
And someone could look at each one of us, and I think of Jeff at the gym,
39:33
I think of lots of examples of people that...
39:36
You often get viewed from someone else and it's just easy to think,
39:39
man, Edgar's got this pretty sweet deal.
39:42
They're unaware of the tension that you experience on a daily basis to sort
39:46
out. They're unaware of my credit score.
39:48
What all in means, you know, he's retired from Green Beret. He's got his own business.
39:53
Must be awesome. Well, hey, and let's go back.
39:57
There's some guys on social media exploiting the hell out of that.
40:00
Oh, yeah. And they look, and it's awesome.
40:02
Well, I wanted to bring you here under the guise of this conversation,
40:05
really just tell you you tell war stories.
40:08
Nah, I ain't doing that. Do you ever, I mean, this is, I wasn't going to go
40:12
here, but do you ever, and there's got to be the urge to play the vet bro card.
40:17
Like you've got the credentials. No way, man. Listen, let me tell you why.
40:21
My best friend, Timmy Haynes, I love you, Timmy.
40:25
He and me, we were teammates and then we were in the same company We were close
40:30
throughout my whole SF career.
40:34
We clowned on that even then. Even then. You're taking yourself too serious. Right.
40:41
Green Beret is a serious business. Yeah, whatever.
40:43
But I can tell you now the public has an entirely distorted view of what the
40:50
men and women in uniform are out there doing. And never mind. Yeah, sure, man.
40:55
I'll even go out. I'm very proud. My team, we got a Valor Award and won one
41:00
of our little combat actions there. I'm very proud of it.
41:04
But it's not, it's nothing you wouldn't have done.
41:08
Nobody did anything that any other guy I know outside of probably wouldn't have done.
41:14
I just happened to train to do that instead of doing whatever else.
41:19
Nah, man. War stories are good when you're sitting around having a pint with
41:23
other dudes who know, right? Right.
41:27
Because you say, oh, it sounds so heroic.
41:31
No, no, not really. So, no, I don't like the bro vet thing at all. But there's dudes, man.
41:42
They ride it, and they ride it for a long way.
41:46
And there's a segment of society that just loves it. They eat it up.
41:49
And that's great, man. I mean, I'm glad that people appreciate veterans and all that stuff.
41:53
Yeah, I am glad of that.
41:57
But I also tell people there's still plenty of Vietnam veterans hanging around.
42:02
They're now, they're getting up in years.
42:06
But if you want to see some war stories, go read like the shadow or SOG,
42:10
the shadow warriors and whatnot.
42:13
Madness. Yeah. Like they were doing some bizarre, like Hollywood copied what they were doing.
42:19
And you know what I'm saying? Right, right. In real life. And you're like, that's not real. Yeah.
42:23
They were doing that stuff. So yeah, there's other dudes out there.
42:29
And I'm not taking away from it at all, man. I'm proud of my servant,
42:32
but I'm not taking away from it.
42:35
But there's, there's some dudes out there, like accused of wife beating,
42:40
accused of stolen valor.
42:44
They've done dubious things that were, they tried to cover up that they came
42:48
out. I got enough skeletons in the client.
42:52
I ain't trying to one be hyper judgmental and to pump myself up to be something.
42:59
Well, I ran, I kind of ran us around a hole there. Yeah.
43:04
But the point being, it's easy to look at someone else and just figure there's
43:08
not much tension in their world of trying to figure it out.
43:11
Yeah. Because they own a business, they run a business.
43:15
Well, I look at Jeff the same way. I don't know what's going on in Jeff's life.
43:19
I wish I owned a Jeff. Yeah.
43:21
And I like the way it is now. It's awesome. Right. I like the brick. I like the whole thing.
43:26
Yeah, I don't know what's going
43:27
on. We talk a lot, so we are each well acquainted with one another's.
43:30
Right. Yeah, y'all are buddies, right? Y'all are good buddies,
43:33
so. Yeah. He's probably got his own set of stuff going on, man.
43:37
So it's difficult, and as we said, it looks different for each one of us,
43:43
and there's a high level of responsibility that comes with trying to figure
43:45
out what the right mix is for each one of us. Yeah.
43:49
And you can't always look around to figure that out.
43:53
You can get little nuggets of advice from people or wisdom, pieces of wisdom
43:57
from podcasts or from influencers or from whatever.
44:01
But you just got to put it in your, you got to squeeze it into your own puzzle
44:04
there because you can't just, yeah.
44:06
Once again, the blueprint is only for one, it's unique.
44:10
Yeah. I think even this conversation though, We could probably make,
44:14
we could make a lot more off of it if we just changed this conversation and
44:18
said, this is the way all in is. Oh, yeah.
44:21
If you don't do this, you're wrong. Fix yourself. Yeah, you're a fool and.
44:25
Or un-F yourself. Right. Just do this and un-F yourself. Yeah.
44:29
Take this much protein every morning. And that'll solve it all.
44:35
No, it'd be cool if it was like that, but it ain't like that. Yeah. Yeah.
44:40
It ain't like that. Well, where do we go from here?
44:43
How would you advise someone who says, man, my life, I don't know if it's a
44:47
mess or not, but I'm kind of always trying to figure out how to be all in in
44:53
the things that matter most. Where do I start?
44:56
Let me tell you, here's the thing that I'm kind of proud of in my career.
45:01
Well, when you're an SF, right. A lot of times you're somewhere and you get
45:04
some infantry guys attached to you or whatnot.
45:07
I still got, there's probably five or six dudes that I've worked with over the
45:12
decades who call me up once in a while.
45:17
And half of them still call me master Sergeant, which is aggravating,
45:21
but they'll hit me with some like deep life.
45:26
Hey man what would you do yeah what what do
45:29
you think i should do or how can i fix this
45:33
yeah i'm like and i
45:36
give them my best friends but also like my answer
45:39
is only it's founded and especially if it's something i've never like really
45:44
had hands on you know so but i'm i'm i'm very proud that they still call and
45:50
i i try to give the best good advice but they're how do you how do you move
45:53
for So you have to be able to prioritize, I think,
45:57
like your life. Yeah.
45:59
So the balance that we kept talking about, you got to figure out how to balance that.
46:04
If you don't, if you don't know what's important to you, you're just going to
46:07
flounder around anyway, whatever it is.
46:11
You got to know what's important to you. And if it's your family,
46:14
then you got to act like that. Right.
46:16
And if it's winning a hundred miler race, you, you got to, that's got to be the thing.
46:23
Can you disregard your family when you're training for that
46:26
no you can't no but maybe for four hours
46:29
you can set them up and be like look i'm going to focus on this
46:32
so yeah have i
46:35
think priorities man a lot of people just can't prioritize their life correctly
46:42
organize it and there's some people out there who are just a wreck yeah and
46:47
their life's a wreck you know and they just kind of fumble through and life
46:51
happens to them instead of them.
46:53
I know people like that.
46:56
And then there's some people who are like a little bit maybe on the autism scale
47:02
and everything's, if something gets out of place, they lose it.
47:07
So that's a little crazy too. I don't know. Balance is hard,
47:11
man. But that's the goal, I think, isn't it?
47:14
Yeah, I think balance is, it depends on how you define balance.
47:17
I mean, I think there again, there's a myth if balance means giving equal attention
47:21
to everything in life and that somehow balances the scales.
47:24
I think that's inaccurate. Very literal definition.
47:27
If it means applying the right amount of tension to each thing in life.
47:32
So I'm going to do a visual here and it's hard, but, and I explain this when
47:37
I'm explaining shooting speed versus accuracy.
47:39
So you've got two scales over here. One speed, one's accuracy.
47:43
There's red in the middle, or there's green in the middle, yellow,
47:46
and then red on the outside.
47:48
Depending on the difficulty of the target, accuracy might be more important.
47:52
So, but every time that one goes up, this one goes down. Yeah,
47:56
yeah. Once you get into the yellow down there, you got to, all right.
48:00
You got to bring it back the other way. You got to either hold or start to figure.
48:05
And that, you know, that's with target difficulty, right?
48:08
But now we got life difficulty. So if I'm all in on shooting matches,
48:15
like I'm chasing matches week after week after week, and I'm up here and my
48:20
wife's down here frigging stressing out.
48:23
Yeah. I've got to bring it back, man. Right. Maybe not equal,
48:27
but got to get it back in the green, back in the green, man.
48:32
I'll put it this way. And I caught wind that it's a mutual friend of ours,
48:38
was potentially going to do something pretty big. And it would be pretty life
48:43
altering, at least for a period of time.
48:45
So I shot him a text, said, consider these four things. There's my unsolicited advice.
48:51
And then a few days later, he called me and said, Hey, thanks for your unsolicited
48:55
advice. Could I solicit some advice from you now?
48:59
And we essentially kind of rehashed those four things and it was,
49:03
do you, do you have a feel, do you have a feel that there's a clear mandate
49:08
or nudge from the Lord to do this? So let's check that box.
49:13
How does this impact your family, wife and kids?
49:16
The third was, how does this impact you and your ability to maintain some, you know.
49:21
Mental health, kind of maintain who you want to be, who you are.
49:26
And then how does this affect your impact in the world around you?
49:31
Because you've got, you are making an impact in what you're doing now.
49:33
If you shift gears, the impact is going to be shifted at least for a time.
49:38
And so those were the four things that, but as we talked and had a conversation
49:42
about all of them, you could rationalize a case for either way,
49:47
either go do this new thing or not.
49:49
And you could kind of rationalize it all the way down and what
49:53
i said so then we came back and said i think to me what
49:56
this where that leaves us is this is a
49:59
family decision and you and your wife you need your
50:02
wife not to be like i don't want you to do that
50:05
but i will support you it needs to be more of let's
50:08
decide together yeah because because the impact is going to be felt just like
50:12
your son's family feels the impact of him doing what he's doing now and now
50:17
if if his situation had been different and any one of those other things had
50:20
been different than they are for him, maybe that's not where he would have landed.
50:26
But I think in the end, he didn't have a clear sense of making the change and
50:31
he stayed put. But for me, it's hard to get around.
50:34
It's hard to get around the family piece. Well, look, man, I never heard it laid out quite that.
50:40
That's pretty four simple steps that probably apply to life anything. Yeah.
50:47
Is the Lord guiding you to do it? How does it affect your family,
50:50
which has got to be number one, or number two? Yeah.
50:53
How does it affect you, and how does it affect your community and the world around you?
50:58
Man, I'm holding on to that. Yeah. I can send you the text, too. That's it, man. Yeah.
51:03
Yeah. One, is that the path that, well, what if you don't believe in God?
51:08
Well, most of our listeners probably do. Yeah, in some way. But I got some,
51:11
I got some Bizarro listeners and I love my Bizarro listeners, but.
51:16
Might believe in some fricking crystals or something. I don't know what,
51:19
but I think when you're doing right things, you, you, you feel it's right.
51:25
Yeah. Not superficially, but deeply. Right.
51:27
And that's the Lord guy. You know, what do you think is crystals or whatever,
51:31
but so yeah, man, that that's brilliant. Yeah.
51:35
Lord guiding you? How does it affect your family? How does it affect you?
51:39
Now, some people would argue if you think the Lord's guiding you,
51:42
it doesn't matter how it affects you or your family or the world.
51:46
Right? Yeah. That's a dangerous, I mean, I cringe anytime someone says the Lord told me to.
51:51
Right. Because there are a lot of layers to how that gets affirmed and quantified. That's right.
51:56
And I simplify that with how sharp is your antenna?
52:01
Right. Are you picking up the right yeah just
52:04
because you want something really bad don't mean the lord's guiding it yeah please
52:07
don't take that oversimplification and run with
52:10
it i mean there's layers to every one of those steps and
52:14
yeah well there's whole religions building built around right is the lord guiding
52:18
you to do this yeah but yeah man i think if you got a firm grasp of your faith
52:24
well i mean the lord is never instructed to do something apart from like that's
52:29
contrary to scripture it's usually going to be affirmed through something you read in the Bible.
52:34
It's usually going to be affirmed by people around you who are walking with the Lord.
52:37
I mean, there, there are kind of ways to have a sense about it versus.
52:42
I made sort of a semi flippant joke. Like, uh, like is, is the voice of James
52:48
Earl Jones going to come out of the sky and be like, Edgar.
52:51
It'd be nice. Yeah. That would be awesome. Please man. Just give me that. Yeah.
52:56
Otherwise you have to be really He's sensitive and, yeah. Well,
53:00
and like this guy was seeking counsel. Yeah. Yeah. It's.
53:04
Important stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. You got to have a homie to go to.
53:08
Yeah. I said that with my therapy one. You got, I, I prefer homie therapy over
53:13
other therapy, but always you got, you got to have somebody go, Hey man.
53:18
Yeah. What do you think? What does this sound like? Yeah. Are you sensitive
53:23
to what the Lord has guided you to do?
53:26
People's antenna ain't ain't up no and some
53:29
people's got omnidirectional antennas
53:33
all over the place and they're picking up all kind of white noise and garbage
53:36
so well and even if your antennas tuned in it doesn't always take the you don't
53:42
always know for sure until after the fact yeah and it doesn't take the the courage
53:47
and fear out of the decision making yeah that's good those four I like that.
53:52
I like that a lot. I was using my stupid scale. No, your visual was good.
53:57
I'm going to make an actual visual for that.
54:01
You should. I'm from my basic pistol class. It makes a lot of sense.
54:05
I might even make it interactive where you can move it.
54:07
So if I move this one, this one automatically moves. You totally should.
54:10
You could probably sell them.
54:11
Yeah, you probably could. That's awesome. You got to figure out the increment
54:14
scale. Now I don't scale.
54:16
Where does, what equals F? like here's where it's acceptable left up and here's
54:21
where it's where it's not and that i was just using the the green yeah you know
54:25
you get some colors go but yeah i don't know how i started doing that one but
54:29
it seemed very simplistic and i was talking to probably somebody who was,
54:33
needed some very simplistic explanation a student like me yeah that's funny
54:40
man well i'll i'll leave it that you called my four points brilliant i don't
54:45
think i have anything further to say then No.
54:47
What do you got? I think let's finish that.
54:51
Is God leading you to do it? Mm-hmm. How does it affect your family?
54:56
How does it affect you and your mental stability and whatnot?
55:01
And how does it affect the world around you, your community especially? Yeah.
55:05
Realizing that all four of those things are important. So if all those things
55:10
line up and sound right, then you can go all in. Yeah. If not...
55:16
Think it yeah I like it I like
55:19
it awesome man this is fun yeah this
55:22
is good this is good this is awesome because I think
55:25
that was a great topic well thanks for pushing
55:28
the conversation I'm just gonna continue to steal little snippets from
55:31
your podcast that's fine occasionally we'll
55:34
just do this some more two guys with a face for a radio yeah so
55:38
what did I say the other one oh don't expect
55:41
hard things not to be hard oh yeah that's gonna be from the
55:44
same episode wasn't it I think it was yeah that's going to
55:46
be another one i want to do a episode on
55:49
that don't expect hard things not to be hard if you can wrap that your mind
55:53
around that in daily life it helps it's but it's hard in the moment to sometimes
55:58
let me tell you what my initial thought was on that life is hard everything's
56:02
hard don't expect anything to be easy go at it with a very just matter of fact.
56:08
I'm doing this yeah until something prevents
56:11
you from doing it yeah and that i
56:14
think the second episode of my podcast was essentially life is
56:17
hard there are no shortcuts yeah you need to increase capacity yep
56:20
but that perspective of things hard things
56:23
are hard and if you can take the emotion out of your response to that thing
56:27
well the podcast you did that and it was like you heard somebody like kind of
56:32
complaining like don't sign up for i don't know what you signed up for this
56:37
is a terrible race to sign up yeah yeah which is why i would never sign up for anything like that.
56:42
That one's brutal. Cause I would immediately be like, yeah.
56:46
Why am I, what did I do? I'd step up. I mean, I mean like 10 meters into it.
56:50
Right. Wait a minute. It was a terrible mistake.
56:54
All right. We should stop before we start unpacking that one.
56:56
Let's do it, man. Yeah. All right. Enjoyed it. This was good.
56:59
Awesome. See you. All right.
57:00
There you go. Good people. That was my friend, Nathan Hicks and me talking about
57:05
what it means to be all in. I hope you enjoyed the episode.
57:10
Give me your feedback. Send your feedback. Follow Nathan Hicks,
57:14
N-J-H-X on Instagram and Higher Ground, which is H-G-R-N-D.
57:24
I can't remember what the Higher Ground one is, but it's a great organization. It does great things.
57:29
Please check out what we got coming up, OspreyshootingSolutions.com.
57:34
Got a shooting match this weekend.
57:36
TwoTeamGuys.com. We've got none scheduled right now. Always scheduling for the
57:43
various things we do there.
57:45
And please go check out Help a Homie Fund. That is givesingo.com backslash helpahomiefund.
57:53
You can find all these things on my link tree.
57:55
And I'm always happy to hear your feedback, folks.
57:59
Other than that, you may get another episode before Christmas.
58:03
So I'm still going to hold my Merry Christmases.
58:05
All right. Take care, good people. Bye-bye.