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4 Critical Mistakes to Avoid in Your Messaging Approach · Business Roundtable

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Speaker 1: All right, Welcome to the Business Roundtable Podcast. I'm David Carr,
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Speaker 1: your host, founder of Stewart your business bringing people together
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Speaker 1: to accomplish great things. Today, we have a brand new
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Speaker 1: guest on the podcast, Joe Brian and Joe. I was
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Speaker 1: just thinking about this while we were recording. I probably
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Speaker 1: Joe might be the person I've known the longest on
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Speaker 1: this podcast. We go way back. We reconnected what was
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Speaker 1: last year at high school reunion. And I'm super excited
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Speaker 1: to have you on here, Joe, because not only we're
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Speaker 1: personal friends, we've known each other for a long time,
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Speaker 1: but I feel like you have got some great insights
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Speaker 1: to share to our audience, to our listeners and so on.
1:14
Speaker 1: Behalf of all of all of us here at the
1:16
Speaker 1: Business Around People Podcast. Welcome. We're so glad to have
1:19
Speaker 1: you here.
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Speaker 2: I've watched a few of you podcasts, so I'm really
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Speaker 2: really excited to be a part of it.
1:25
Speaker 3: It all seems really great.
1:27
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Joe is staying up a little
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Speaker 1: later with us. She's in the UK, so we were
1:31
Speaker 1: just comparing time zones early before we got recording. So
1:34
Speaker 1: thanks for staying up a little later with us to
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Speaker 1: record here. Yeah, jo you have had such a great
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Speaker 1: background and experience I think coming and sharing on the podcast,
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Speaker 1: your background with charities, nonprofits, working with local governments, in
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Speaker 1: transitioning if you will, from you know, into a program
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Speaker 1: level role into the higher level rule that. I'm super
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Speaker 1: excited to get into that a little bit and hear
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Speaker 1: your journey. So before we get into all the weeds,
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Speaker 1: why don't you walk us through a little bit about
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Speaker 1: your career journey, where you started, in where you are today,
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Speaker 1: and just so that folks get to know a little
2:18
Speaker 1: bit more about Joe Bryan.
2:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, sure.
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Speaker 2: I mean you're making it sound much grander than it
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Speaker 2: actually is. I mean, as a child, I always wanted
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Speaker 2: to go into sort of counseling. I did a psychology degree,
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Speaker 2: and I really thought I had a really stringent career path.
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Speaker 2: And then as it was, that just didn't seem like
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Speaker 2: the thing for me in the end, and I ended
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Speaker 2: up getting my first job running a national helpline for
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Speaker 2: parents of children with special educational needs.
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Speaker 3: So it's kind of a legal advice line.
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Speaker 2: It was helping people through some really difficult and challenging
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Speaker 2: circumstances and battles that they had with schools and education system.
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Speaker 2: So loved that job and then had an opportunity to
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Speaker 2: work more locally to me, literally up the road running
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Speaker 2: a charity for people who were caring for loved ones
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Speaker 2: in an unpaid capacity but potentially for you know, much
3:17
Speaker 2: longer hours than any of us would do a paid
3:20
Speaker 2: job for and the impact that that had on people.
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Speaker 2: So that was that's probably the closest to some of
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Speaker 2: your clients in terms of almost running a business, because
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Speaker 2: I was answerable to like a board of directors and
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Speaker 2: responsible for kind of all the operations and strategic direction
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Speaker 2: for that charity. So that was a that was a
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Speaker 2: big job, and yeah, I loved it. I did love it.
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Speaker 2: But then in the end I moved into local government,
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Speaker 2: and I think both had its advantages and disadvantages. I
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Speaker 2: now work in public health, so that's where we're responsible
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Speaker 2: for improving the health and well being of local people.
4:02
Speaker 2: I work for my local council, so it's literally I'm
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Speaker 2: supporting my friends, my neighbors, you know, my family, which
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Speaker 2: is which is really kind of privileged position to have.
4:13
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of now sort of in like almost
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Speaker 2: a very large organization and sort of more like a
4:21
Speaker 2: middle manager in a very large organization. But you can
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Speaker 2: so that there's a lot of differences between all those
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Speaker 2: different kind of settings. Charitable nonprofit sectors very different to
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Speaker 2: local government, which again is very different to private business.
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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's been an interesting journey. But I definitely
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Speaker 2: in my current job, although I work for local government,
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Speaker 2: I really do still bring and have that passion for
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Speaker 2: the charitable non profit sector and bring that into my
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Speaker 2: daily work.
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Speaker 3: Really.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, well, Joe, I mean so I loved hearing
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Speaker 1: your journey. I know you've said, you know where you originally,
5:02
Speaker 1: like you mentioned I think before recorded like wanting to
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Speaker 1: be maybe a counselor. That shifted that modified. Obviously, you
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Speaker 1: have a care for people. That's what comes through loud
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Speaker 1: and clear, Joe, is through the nonprofit, being the director
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Speaker 1: or overseeing that now in this middle management in a
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Speaker 1: larger organization. But I hear that, lad and clear. Your
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Speaker 1: care for people is so important to you.
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Speaker 2: Definitely, and I think that what's interested is although I
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Speaker 2: never went down the route of being a counselor, what
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Speaker 2: was great about it is that I did learn some
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Speaker 2: of the skills that I still now use in everyday
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Speaker 2: working life, things like just EmPATH empathic active listening skills,
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Speaker 2: and we do when you were working as a kind
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Speaker 2: of counselor and client. And I think that they I
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Speaker 2: use that all the time all the time, kind of
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Speaker 2: like making relationships with different stakeholders and kind of the
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Speaker 2: management of the team, And when you're hitting somebody really
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Speaker 2: difficult and kind of challenging to work with, that's trying
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Speaker 2: to use that active listening to sort of try and
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Speaker 2: understand their perspective.
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Speaker 3: Where are they coming from, what are they what are.
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Speaker 2: They trying to get out of this interaction, and what's
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Speaker 2: it like to be them? And I think that that's
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Speaker 2: something that I've carried with me from those sort of
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Speaker 2: counseling days, that if you can kind of understand a
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Speaker 2: bit about what somebody is trying to do, then I
6:27
Speaker 2: think it sort of it gets rid of all that
6:29
Speaker 2: conflict and it breaks all down and then you're like, Okay, right,
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Speaker 2: I get it. That's what that's where you're coming from.
6:38
Speaker 2: This is where I'm coming from, Like what have we
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Speaker 2: got here that's in common? And how can we how
6:45
Speaker 2: can we proceed? I literally had, oh gosh, a few
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Speaker 2: weeks ago, there's this somebody that I work with she's
6:52
Speaker 2: external to my organization bringant, but.
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Speaker 3: Has a coming from a very different point of view
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Speaker 3: to me.
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Speaker 2: Very you could say, we're coming from kind of like
7:02
Speaker 2: opposite sides of the table sometimes. And I've tried to
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Speaker 2: understand where she's coming from, and I think I get
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Speaker 2: it now. I think I understand her perspective and what
7:12
Speaker 2: she's trying to do with her job and why maybe
7:16
Speaker 2: sometimes she's quite challenging because that's she sees that as
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Speaker 2: part of her role that she needs to be because
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Speaker 2: she's kind of representing people.
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Speaker 3: Which is great.
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Speaker 2: And we had a meeting recently and we were talking
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Speaker 2: about something that was due to be quite possibly challenging.
7:30
Speaker 2: So I presented sort of my side of the story
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Speaker 2: and then said, I know what you're going to say.
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Speaker 2: You're going to say this, this, and this, and she
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Speaker 2: was just like, I've trained you well, You've taken.
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Speaker 3: The words right out of my mouth. It was great.
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Speaker 2: You know, it could have been a difficult relationship, it
7:45
Speaker 2: could have been a conflict. But I think because I
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Speaker 2: kind of knew where she was coming from and understood
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Speaker 2: her perspectives like so well.
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Speaker 3: That I knew what she was going to say.
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Speaker 2: I knew what the points were going to be, and
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Speaker 2: then you know, hopefully she appreciated my kind of side
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Speaker 2: as well, and out of that we came up with
8:05
Speaker 2: some solutions and some things that we could do together
8:09
Speaker 2: to make the situation better.
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Speaker 3: So yeah, I love that.
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Speaker 2: The stuff I was originally trained in is being used
8:17
Speaker 2: literally on a daily basis.
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Speaker 1: Well that's right. Well, I think that speaks to your
8:22
Speaker 1: success show in your career and where you're at now
8:25
Speaker 1: and how you're fitting within an organization. And I feel
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Speaker 1: like part of the reason I have the Business round
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Speaker 1: Table podcast is there's some folks that are they don't
8:33
Speaker 1: undert necessarily aren't opposed to it, but they're not maybe
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Speaker 1: either one not exposed to this learning and ability that's
8:39
Speaker 1: out there. So hence the Business Roundtable podcast bringing folks
8:43
Speaker 1: like you on to share and hoping they open up
8:45
Speaker 1: the possibility and consider what could be. And then number two,
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Speaker 1: then they can actually take this and apply it, start
8:52
Speaker 1: to apply it. And why I hope start as toward
8:55
Speaker 1: your business was just to this point what you're saying,
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Speaker 1: whether you don't have to be a full blown counsel,
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Speaker 1: but you can learn these tools and techniques and become
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Speaker 1: more self aware, like you're saying, and I like to say,
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Speaker 1: what is it like to be on the other side
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Speaker 1: of you? So you the other side of you? What
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Speaker 1: is she going to have? How she going to respond
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Speaker 1: to me? And what I'm going to present? That was
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Speaker 1: really smart and of being aware of you, not on
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Speaker 1: even put words in her mouth, but just saying, look,
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Speaker 1: I want to consider what put myself on what you're
9:23
Speaker 1: you're thinking? Right?
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Speaker 3: How yes, definitely? And we don't listen, well do we?
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Speaker 3: We just don't. It's not a natural thing to listen.
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Speaker 2: Well, we all have in our head as I'm speaking,
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Speaker 2: you've probably got in your head like your next question
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Speaker 2: or your next point, or what you're going to what
9:38
Speaker 2: you're going to say.
9:39
Speaker 3: We don't listen.
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Speaker 2: Kind of like wholeheartedly a lot of the time to
9:44
Speaker 2: what somebody else is saying. And and sometimes when we do, gosh,
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Speaker 2: it really works to sort of build up that trust
9:51
Speaker 2: and that relationship with whoever it is. And they get
9:55
Speaker 2: taught it in sales, don't they. But you know, when
9:58
Speaker 2: you're when you're selling to somebody, you really are supposed
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Speaker 2: to sort of understand what they've come into your shop
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Speaker 2: for and what that motivation is.
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Speaker 3: So like it. It is used a lot in business.
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Speaker 1: If it's done well, You're right, absolutely, Joe. On the
10:13
Speaker 1: flip side, it's funny. I just talked with a couple
10:15
Speaker 1: of people in sales this week, and we're talking about
10:18
Speaker 1: all the bad sales people out there that are just
10:20
Speaker 1: pitching you. They don't know anything about You're like, don't
10:22
Speaker 1: you want to buy this? You like, you don't even
10:24
Speaker 1: know about me, Like, no, what my circumstances are, and
10:27
Speaker 1: you're just trying to sell push something on me. And
10:29
Speaker 1: to your point though, Joe, whether if you take the
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Speaker 1: analogy of selling, meaning like we're trying to convey a message, right,
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Speaker 1: I'm selling. I'm trying to convey something just like you
10:40
Speaker 1: and I are talking about our children. They want something right,
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Speaker 1: They're trying to sell us to buy something or get
10:44
Speaker 1: something right. If you could do it in a very
10:46
Speaker 1: thoughtful way and understand where the other person's coming from, you're
10:50
Speaker 1: more likely to make the sale, so to speak.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I also think it really has an
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Speaker 2: impact sort of in like personal develop and working with
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Speaker 2: your team. Like I think what I try to do
11:07
Speaker 2: when I'm sort of directly managing somebody is to try
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Speaker 2: and really understand, you know, what are they what do
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Speaker 2: they want out of this job?
11:15
Speaker 3: What, what are they trying to do?
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Speaker 2: Where's their where's their career going, where do they see
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Speaker 2: their next step?
11:20
Speaker 3: And by really.
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Speaker 2: Listening and understanding exactly what their current circumstances are and
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Speaker 2: what they want to.
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Speaker 3: Get out of it.
11:27
Speaker 2: I think that if you can get their goals and
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Speaker 2: their context through properly listening, I always find that people
11:35
Speaker 2: then they just they work so much better.
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Speaker 3: For you, you know what I mean, like you trying to
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Speaker 3: understand it.
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Speaker 2: And I think sometimes I think sometimes as well within
11:46
Speaker 2: a team, we often feel like everybody's got to be
11:49
Speaker 2: developed and developed and developed and move to the next stage,
11:52
Speaker 2: go on to the next bit of training.
11:53
Speaker 3: And I always say to people.
11:55
Speaker 2: That I managed that if your career goal is just
11:59
Speaker 2: you know, I'd quite like to stay exactly where I'm
12:01
Speaker 2: at and you know, have a good work life balance,
12:05
Speaker 2: and that's.
12:05
Speaker 3: All I'm after.
12:07
Speaker 2: That That's okay, you know, that's that's what that's my
12:09
Speaker 2: work goal. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm just
12:11
Speaker 2: trying to, you know, keep it at this level and
12:14
Speaker 2: get a good balance between work and life. And so
12:18
Speaker 2: you don't have to have a huge kind of career
12:21
Speaker 2: development plan that we need to work on together. Like,
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Speaker 2: just honestly, where are you, what, what do you want?
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Speaker 2: What are you trying to do? And let me do
12:31
Speaker 2: everything I can to help you to get the right
12:34
Speaker 2: experiences and the right Yeah, exactly, the right the right
12:38
Speaker 2: working working life to and then I think people respond
12:43
Speaker 2: really well to.
12:44
Speaker 1: That, right. Yeah. Well, I love I love the questions
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Speaker 1: you're presenting, Joe. And another reason I wanted to have
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Speaker 1: you on the podcast is, uh, you know, I'm based
12:52
Speaker 1: here in California, and I want to hear the universality
12:55
Speaker 1: that you're saying is that we all, I believe, want
12:58
Speaker 1: to find purpose and meaning what we're doing, whatever that
13:01
Speaker 1: is where wherever we're at. Some people are more driven
13:04
Speaker 1: in a certain way and others are happy with hereat
13:06
Speaker 1: and it's not I'm not here to make judgment one
13:08
Speaker 1: way or the other. Is just a matter of do
13:10
Speaker 1: you find I would just say, I would ask the question,
13:13
Speaker 1: are you feeling fulfilled and you find peace? Do you
13:15
Speaker 1: have joy? Are you Are you at a place where
13:17
Speaker 1: I told you earlier before we start recording bringing a
13:19
Speaker 1: light into the world. Are you a place of a
13:21
Speaker 1: place where you can give because you have an abundance.
13:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely where you coming from.
13:28
Speaker 2: A place of a deaficit, right, Yeah, definitely a definitely.
13:34
Speaker 2: And I think that you know, we've all I've had
13:36
Speaker 2: times in in jobs where I remember one job and
13:40
Speaker 2: I had had a really bad manager and it really
13:42
Speaker 2: impacted me. And I remember sitting in my car having
13:44
Speaker 2: a little cry before I went into work in the
13:46
Speaker 2: morning and thinking, that's not what you want. And you
13:50
Speaker 2: don't want anybody within your team to be to feel
13:53
Speaker 2: like that about work.
13:54
Speaker 3: You want them to have some energy and enthusiasm and to.
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Speaker 2: Want to be there, to be enjoying what they're doing,
14:00
Speaker 2: getting something out of it for themselves, and feeling as
14:03
Speaker 2: if it's if it's worthwhile. And I think as managers
14:07
Speaker 2: and that's our role is to make sure that people
14:10
Speaker 2: really are getting what they what they need and then
14:13
Speaker 2: that will give us what we need as a just
14:16
Speaker 2: a natural give back.
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Speaker 1: Really yeah, well, I I think relationships thrive best when
14:24
Speaker 1: it's mutually beneficial. It's not it's not transactional, it's not
14:29
Speaker 1: I get this. I mean, there are the more that
14:32
Speaker 1: we can make it mutually beneficial and looking after each
14:35
Speaker 1: other's highest and best good. That's where I come from.
14:38
Speaker 1: And I believe you did Joe as well. And I
14:41
Speaker 1: really like and like the questions you're asking are you're
14:43
Speaker 1: being very curious, You're being in a way of like
14:45
Speaker 1: how can they help you? I think sometimes we don't
14:47
Speaker 1: do that. I was literally talking about a client today
14:50
Speaker 1: and they were saying, like, well, we we met with
14:52
Speaker 1: some we met with our employees, and we asked them
14:56
Speaker 1: did they have any any problems or any challenges or
14:58
Speaker 1: no you and our natural tendency is to say no,
15:02
Speaker 1: we're fine, Yeah, no, everything's okay. And so instead unless
15:06
Speaker 1: you ask curious and probing questions like you just did, Joe,
15:11
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, it's a missed opportunity.
15:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like in that situation, you could be asking, you know,
15:16
Speaker 2: what could be one thing that could be different about
15:19
Speaker 2: the workplace that would mean that you would enjoy your
15:23
Speaker 2: job more?
15:23
Speaker 3: Perhaps, you know.
15:25
Speaker 2: I think they don't need to be they need to
15:27
Speaker 2: be tricky questions, do they? But people do often tell
15:30
Speaker 2: us what they think you want to hear. So I
15:33
Speaker 2: think there has to be a way of sort of
15:36
Speaker 2: establishing that authenticity and honesty and if you can get
15:43
Speaker 2: that with somebody where you're really operating at that level
15:47
Speaker 2: and just you're saying what you think, they're saying what
15:49
Speaker 2: they think, and then it's a really open conversation. Then
15:53
Speaker 2: I think you've got a really successful working relationship.
15:57
Speaker 3: You know, definitely well here.
16:00
Speaker 1: And I want I want to bring up a story
16:02
Speaker 1: that you and I talked about last year actually about
16:06
Speaker 1: one of your colleagues you were working with, and the
16:09
Speaker 1: the the challenge that I want to see, as I said,
16:11
Speaker 1: the stage for this conversation is that you know, some
16:15
Speaker 1: people are more proactive in speaking their minds than others,
16:18
Speaker 1: and some people don't know how to ask for help.
16:20
Speaker 1: And so again, like you said, you know, it's understanding
16:23
Speaker 1: yourself and how that and how I have another whole
16:27
Speaker 1: other podcast called Intelligent Human Leadership Podcast, but I would
16:30
Speaker 1: know yourself to lead yourself and your teams and and
16:33
Speaker 1: and so it's understanding that and then understanding I love
16:36
Speaker 1: this this voice five voices framework I use in the
16:39
Speaker 1: in my coaching. But nonetheless it's finding out that understanding
16:43
Speaker 1: of who you are and what is it like to
16:44
Speaker 1: be on the other side of you. So some people
16:47
Speaker 1: don't want to ask questions, so that they don't want
16:49
Speaker 1: to be seen as incompetent or feeling like they're going
16:51
Speaker 1: to mess mess up. In reality, they're actually undermining their
16:55
Speaker 1: their impact because of that's how they naturally show up.
16:59
Speaker 1: Just always show that naturally. But if they understand this
17:02
Speaker 1: like how I show up, and then I say, okay,
17:04
Speaker 1: but I would be benefiting from somebody helping me, and
17:07
Speaker 1: I want to just all this is to lead in Joe,
17:09
Speaker 1: because you had an experience where you had a colleague
17:11
Speaker 1: you were helping, right, And I'll let you share the story.
17:15
Speaker 1: You know what what happened there, you had a colleague,
17:18
Speaker 1: and you just share a little bit about like as
17:21
Speaker 1: a program manager, as a leader, you know what you've seen.
17:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I mean, I guess the other thing
17:28
Speaker 2: is is that we all have that little bit of
17:30
Speaker 2: imposter syndrome, don't we around whether we're doing our job
17:33
Speaker 2: as well and whether somebody else would be doing it better.
17:38
Speaker 2: And certainly, you know, I've had plenty of people that
17:42
Speaker 2: I've worked with and me myself, we were the same,
17:46
Speaker 2: and I think that sometimes it's sometimes sometimes it's about
17:49
Speaker 2: modeling and some of that behavior. So I mean, I'm
17:53
Speaker 2: perfectly happy within the workplace, to ask the daftist, stupidest question,
17:58
Speaker 2: to admit I don't know something, to confess to a mistake,
18:01
Speaker 2: to just say something and then five years later say
18:06
Speaker 2: well I've changed my view completely and just be very
18:10
Speaker 2: real and honest. And so I don't know whether the
18:12
Speaker 2: story I was telling you was about somebody where we
18:17
Speaker 2: were kind of enabled them to make a mistake.
18:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
18:21
Speaker 2: So yeah, So she had a piece of work to do,
18:25
Speaker 2: and it was something that I'd passed over to her
18:30
Speaker 2: where I'd been kind of managing the project for some
18:32
Speaker 2: time myself. So obviously I had my own strong views
18:35
Speaker 2: of over whether I knew about what to do.
18:39
Speaker 3: But you know, she was competent and it was for
18:42
Speaker 3: her to run that project.
18:44
Speaker 2: And so she came and spoke to me about it
18:47
Speaker 2: and was talking about how she thought she might approach it,
18:50
Speaker 2: and there was just one bit of it that I thought, Oh,
18:53
Speaker 2: that's going to go down so badly if you try
18:55
Speaker 2: and do it that way.
18:56
Speaker 3: The organization you're working with was a charity. We were
18:59
Speaker 3: in local government.
19:00
Speaker 2: It was a charity she was working with, and I thought,
19:01
Speaker 2: I can tell you now what their response is going
19:04
Speaker 2: to be. That's just that's just isn't gonna isn't going
19:07
Speaker 2: to work. But I think the hardest thing to do
19:10
Speaker 2: as a manager. And I'm not saying I get this
19:12
Speaker 2: right all of the time.
19:13
Speaker 3: I get this right. It's a very small proportion of.
19:16
Speaker 2: The time, but it's it's in a in a very
19:20
Speaker 2: risk managed way. Obviously, you don't want people going off
19:23
Speaker 2: and dropping complete clangers that are really going to hurt
19:26
Speaker 2: your business, but in a managed way where you feel
19:30
Speaker 2: that it's okay if somebody gets that wrong and you
19:34
Speaker 2: can manage the risk around that, singing that individual to
19:38
Speaker 2: let them just forge your head perhaps with the path
19:41
Speaker 2: that you think that's going to go really wrong here,
19:45
Speaker 2: and and I knew it was going to and consequently
19:49
Speaker 2: it did. So she came back to me and there
19:52
Speaker 2: was a whole mess, and we we sort of talked
19:54
Speaker 2: through how we might be able to fix it, and
19:57
Speaker 2: she was, you know, quite upset that it had all
19:59
Speaker 2: gone a bit wrong. But one of the things that
20:02
Speaker 2: really stuck in my mind is a few years later
20:04
Speaker 2: she left the organization and we were having her leaving
20:08
Speaker 2: do and she came up to me and said something like,
20:12
Speaker 2: do you know that time when you let me make
20:14
Speaker 2: that mistake, and you knew it was going to go wrong,
20:17
Speaker 2: didn't you. She said, that was my biggest piece of
20:20
Speaker 2: learning that I can think of in my career so far.
20:25
Speaker 2: And it had really impacted her, and she'd really taken
20:27
Speaker 2: a lot away from it, and she'd really changed how
20:31
Speaker 2: she was working and kind of how she approached future projects.
20:36
Speaker 2: And then when you think back, all of the biggest
20:40
Speaker 2: mistakes that we've all made in our working life are
20:42
Speaker 2: always the ones that then you reflect on and you
20:45
Speaker 2: analyze and you try your hardest and never put yourself
20:49
Speaker 2: in that situation ever again. So you know, we know that,
20:54
Speaker 2: but I don't think we really were. Only think we're
20:56
Speaker 2: very good at seeing mistakes is the massive learning opportunity
21:00
Speaker 2: they are. And we're certainly not always very good at
21:02
Speaker 2: letting people around us go with something and make those
21:07
Speaker 2: mistakes when it's silly, isn't it really, Because that's the
21:09
Speaker 2: most valuable thing that anybody could do, rather than you
21:13
Speaker 2: just telling them how to do it.
21:14
Speaker 1: But exactly, it must.
21:17
Speaker 2: Be really hard when you own and run your own business,
21:19
Speaker 2: because that's your livelihood, and you know it's it's it's
21:23
Speaker 2: very it's even more difficult to kind of pass that
21:27
Speaker 2: that trust on to let somebody do it.
21:31
Speaker 3: Their own way.
21:32
Speaker 1: No, I think that's that's that's that's what you're you're
21:35
Speaker 1: transitioning from being it yourself and you have I mean,
21:38
Speaker 1: part of leadership and growing is delegation and being able
21:42
Speaker 1: to allow other people to that's I mean, you have
21:46
Speaker 1: to be to me, to be a successful leader and manager,
21:49
Speaker 1: you need to be able to delegate in how do
21:51
Speaker 1: you delegate? What does that look like? And most of
21:53
Speaker 1: the time, like you're saying, Joe, they're not. They will
21:57
Speaker 1: never do it a one hundred percent like you. You know,
21:59
Speaker 1: they'll they'll get it maybe eighty percent or you know,
22:02
Speaker 1: seventy five eighty five percent, they'll get hopefully most of
22:06
Speaker 1: the way there.
22:08
Speaker 3: You know, we also assume we're right as well work.
22:14
Speaker 3: You know, we assume we're right.
22:16
Speaker 2: And the times when I've let people like I had
22:20
Speaker 2: somebody just last year they wanted to run this project.
22:22
Speaker 3: It was nothing to do with me. Just let her
22:25
Speaker 3: run with it. And when you looked.
22:27
Speaker 2: At the outcomes that she got from that project and
22:30
Speaker 2: what she achieved with it, it was it was around
22:32
Speaker 2: the sexual health of older people. It was a brilliant project,
22:35
Speaker 2: but she did it very differently to how I would
22:38
Speaker 2: have done it and came out with different outcomes from
22:42
Speaker 2: it than I think I would have got. And then
22:45
Speaker 2: I just stepped back and looked at it and think, actually,
22:47
Speaker 2: she's done that way better than me. And if I'd
22:50
Speaker 2: just stuck my nose in and tried to steer that
22:52
Speaker 2: a bit more, we would have never we would have
22:55
Speaker 2: never got that. And it is it's tricky when people
22:59
Speaker 2: are like different personalities to you. I find that people
23:01
Speaker 2: with similar personalities probably go about things the same way
23:04
Speaker 2: to me. And when somebody is like a completely different personality,
23:08
Speaker 2: they're the ones that always surprise me with a proper
23:11
Speaker 2: gem because they've just done something really.
23:14
Speaker 3: Different than I would have.
23:16
Speaker 2: And but yeah, it's really hard to kind of sit
23:18
Speaker 2: on your hands and bite your tongue and just like
23:21
Speaker 2: let somebody.
23:22
Speaker 3: But it's worth it in the end, it's worth it.
23:25
Speaker 1: Well. I love that you brought that up that particular angle,
23:29
Speaker 1: because sometimes we in organizations and I love you know, listen,
23:34
Speaker 1: in the private sector that I've been and even in
23:36
Speaker 1: the evening some nonprofits, I would say too, Actually, you
23:41
Speaker 1: you have a tendency to surround yourself with people like
23:44
Speaker 1: you said, like minded people your personality wise, and that's comfortable,
23:49
Speaker 1: but but there's maybe limited growth there because what you're
23:52
Speaker 1: saying is we're all it's kind of kind of group think,
23:54
Speaker 1: like we all kind of think that they.
23:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right, yeah, exactly exactly. We literally had it
24:01
Speaker 2: at work celebrating people's birthdays recently and realized like there
24:04
Speaker 2: was a massive chunk of the team that are all Taurus.
24:08
Speaker 3: Hold on a minute, what's going on here?
24:09
Speaker 2: And we've got a bias towards a certain horoscope. But
24:15
Speaker 2: I do think that the more you you know, those
24:17
Speaker 2: kind of like cheesy team building exercises that we've all
24:21
Speaker 2: done plenty of times in our career to sort of
24:24
Speaker 2: see what personality style you are and what personality style
24:28
Speaker 2: the people are around you are. I think that as
24:31
Speaker 2: a leader, you have to really understand that well, you
24:34
Speaker 2: need to know what you're really good at, but equally
24:38
Speaker 2: what you're not. So like, I know, I always come
24:42
Speaker 2: out as like a pragmatist and active person, like good
24:45
Speaker 2: at making decisions, but my weakness is is that sometimes
24:51
Speaker 2: I don't slow down enough to allow the more creative
24:54
Speaker 2: people in my team to think something through mullet over
24:59
Speaker 2: and then come up with their gems of an idea.
25:01
Speaker 2: But at least I know that, so then it's like,
25:04
Speaker 2: it's good to force yourself to slow down and force
25:07
Speaker 2: yourself to do the opposite. That's your bit of weakness,
25:11
Speaker 2: and then that means that then as a as a
25:13
Speaker 2: broader team, you're you're stronger. So I think if you don't,
25:17
Speaker 2: you know, you have to do those cheesy little exercises like.
25:20
Speaker 1: Real, I'll challenge you so cheesy.
25:24
Speaker 2: Oh it is, it is, it completely is, But they're
25:28
Speaker 2: really helpful.
25:29
Speaker 1: You know, there's just what you're saying, Joe, No, it's
25:32
Speaker 1: so so number one, you have to learn this because
25:36
Speaker 1: it doesn't it's not something that we just get. I've
25:39
Speaker 1: never seen anybody just get it. It's something that has learned.
25:42
Speaker 1: And I love what you said because I love working
25:46
Speaker 1: with create I'm not creative in my five voices frame,
25:50
Speaker 1: where creative is my second voice, connector is my first voice.
25:52
Speaker 1: But what I recognize was to use this example, like
25:55
Speaker 1: you said creatives. I love creatives because they are so innovative.
25:58
Speaker 1: It can consider so many different possibilities, but oftentimes they
26:04
Speaker 1: need help and implementation, like the actual getting into the
26:07
Speaker 1: details like right, yeah.
26:10
Speaker 3: Now, guys, let's now, we need to put this into
26:12
Speaker 3: a plan and we need to get this actually we
26:14
Speaker 3: need to move you on. Yeah, right, right exactly.
26:17
Speaker 1: But if if, if we don't understand that about each other,
26:21
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's gonna be frustration, right because you're
26:24
Speaker 1: like they're feeling stretched because they can't express their their
26:27
Speaker 1: creativities and their thoughts and they feel like it has
26:30
Speaker 1: to be fully formed and it's got to be perfect
26:32
Speaker 1: before I present it, like no, and and and vice versa.
26:36
Speaker 1: If we're we're we're on the other side you like
26:38
Speaker 1: maybe you or me, Joe, we're pushing them too fast
26:41
Speaker 1: and sense I'm not appreciating the innovation and the things
26:44
Speaker 1: that they're they're presenting, like hey, do you think about this?
26:46
Speaker 1: Like no, I really didn't, and so understanding and valuing
26:50
Speaker 1: the different voices if you.
26:52
Speaker 2: Will, Yeah, And I think that I think the older
26:55
Speaker 2: I get, the more I'm able to do that. And
26:59
Speaker 2: I think some times, like when I first started out
27:02
Speaker 2: as a manager, I don't think I was really understanding
27:05
Speaker 2: why I don't real it wasn't just like me because surely.
27:07
Speaker 3: I'm doing it the right way.
27:08
Speaker 2: And now it's like, WHOA, Well, I've got my own strengths,
27:12
Speaker 2: but then all these other people have got their own strengths,
27:15
Speaker 2: and really, unless we can bring that all together, is
27:19
Speaker 2: the only way that we're going to really you know,
27:22
Speaker 2: benefit the whatever business it is that we're we're doing
27:26
Speaker 2: at that time.
27:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever, whatever project whatever. The other thing you mentioned
27:31
Speaker 1: earlier in the podcast I really liked is that I
27:34
Speaker 1: like to say, we all have tendencies or triggers Joe,
27:37
Speaker 1: that are always going to be a part of us.
27:38
Speaker 1: But how we express them and our behaviors if we're aware,
27:43
Speaker 1: you know, and then make shifts and then making and
27:49
Speaker 1: then ultimately get our desired outcome For me Joe as
27:53
Speaker 1: an example is I'm a very positive as you know,
27:56
Speaker 1: can do overly optimistic maybe, uh, And I had I
28:02
Speaker 1: had to learn this, Joe, I had to learn this
28:04
Speaker 1: about myself. Of like, I would do that, and I
28:08
Speaker 1: would talk to team members and I said, yes, we
28:10
Speaker 1: can do this, right, we're gonna go after this and
28:12
Speaker 1: until and they would go along and say yes, Joe,
28:15
Speaker 1: until until I empowered them, and then they were struggling
28:18
Speaker 1: to succeed. And then I said, look, you guys need
28:21
Speaker 1: I want to empower you to say, I'll tell you
28:23
Speaker 1: I'm overly optimistic. You need to tell me, David, this
28:26
Speaker 1: is not I'm a concern I have concerns or risks.
28:29
Speaker 1: I feel like we're taking too much on And so
28:32
Speaker 1: I empowered them to speak and I think as leaders
28:36
Speaker 1: Joe for example, of you, you know, giving them a
28:40
Speaker 1: safe space to come and talk with you and share
28:43
Speaker 1: with you. Do they feel like they can or do
28:46
Speaker 1: they feel like, oh, I just got to keep it
28:48
Speaker 1: and figure it out, keep it to myself.
28:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's hope they all feel like they can. But
28:52
Speaker 2: you never you never know, do you really? I Mean
28:55
Speaker 2: one of the things that we I find really useful
28:57
Speaker 2: is that whole business planning cycle and so getting the
29:00
Speaker 2: whole team together once a year and just re just
29:06
Speaker 2: re examining what is it we're trying to do. What
29:09
Speaker 2: are the big deals for us, what are the big
29:11
Speaker 2: aims that we're trying to change, or what the outcomes
29:15
Speaker 2: that we're after, And then let's just get all those
29:18
Speaker 2: ideas on the table and get them all out so
29:22
Speaker 2: then your creatives can come up with all the wild,
29:24
Speaker 2: brilliant ones, and the pragmatists like me can put all
29:28
Speaker 2: the boring tasks that have to be done in and
29:31
Speaker 2: then just putting that all together, and then we just
29:33
Speaker 2: use that really common kind of must shoulds, coulds, won't
29:37
Speaker 2: and we just classify everything and we look at it like,
29:40
Speaker 2: all of these tasks look really important, they all look
29:43
Speaker 2: really great, that we've got a lot of enthusiasm. If
29:46
Speaker 2: we had all the time in the world, we do
29:47
Speaker 2: them more. But which of them are going to have
29:50
Speaker 2: the biggest impact on what we're trying to achieve this
29:53
Speaker 2: year in our business, and those ones and we've got
29:57
Speaker 2: to pull those ones out, so let's keep all the others,
30:00
Speaker 2: you know, they could barely be wont now and like
30:02
Speaker 2: we can go back to them and if we finally've
30:04
Speaker 2: got those of capacity, we can bring them back again,
30:07
Speaker 2: or if there's other opportunities about the year, we can.
30:09
Speaker 2: So you don't have to be stringent about it. But
30:11
Speaker 2: I think getting all those ideas out, hearing everybody's points
30:14
Speaker 2: of view and agreeing to kind of like clear direction
30:19
Speaker 2: as a team that this is what we're this is
30:21
Speaker 2: what we're about, and then developing that plan I think
30:26
Speaker 2: helps so much because then everyone's really clear on and
30:29
Speaker 2: then we'd split it up my quarter and who's doing what,
30:32
Speaker 2: and then you can do all the like the practical
30:34
Speaker 2: bits of it.
30:36
Speaker 3: But I think it really it means that we've.
30:39
Speaker 2: All fed into it. It's not me saying this is
30:41
Speaker 2: what we're going to do. Everybody's fed into it. Everybody's
30:43
Speaker 2: got their ideas out, We've you know, tweaked some of them,
30:47
Speaker 2: developed some of them, and then we've chosen the ones
30:49
Speaker 2: that really are going to have the biggest impact, and
30:52
Speaker 2: then those are the ones that we drive forward as
30:55
Speaker 2: like our priorities, because I do think we've we've.
30:58
Speaker 3: Waste a lot of time in work.
31:00
Speaker 2: I mean, I can oh yeah and go off on
31:02
Speaker 2: an angle doing something that's really not having an impact,
31:06
Speaker 2: and I think it's great to have like a plan
31:08
Speaker 2: to just bring you back to those top top things
31:13
Speaker 2: that and if you involve your team properly informing those
31:16
Speaker 2: and everyone's behind like, this is what we're this is
31:19
Speaker 2: what we're doing, and every all of those personality types
31:23
Speaker 2: have got a different way that they contribute to that
31:26
Speaker 2: whole process.
31:29
Speaker 3: Kind of quite easily.
31:30
Speaker 2: So you know, like we do it where you know,
31:33
Speaker 2: you might have like somebody individually writing something down a
31:36
Speaker 2: couple of the some people discussing it in a little group,
31:40
Speaker 2: and it's different ways exactly.
31:43
Speaker 1: I think this is where you can even you know,
31:45
Speaker 1: speaking on my behalf of my company or others that
31:49
Speaker 1: help come outside of the company organization, if you will,
31:53
Speaker 1: just because I think sometimes when you're in that you maybe,
31:56
Speaker 1: like you said, maybe tied to a certain outcome that
31:59
Speaker 1: you feel like a really important and maybe it maybe
32:01
Speaker 1: it is, but maybe it isn't. And somebody else comes
32:03
Speaker 1: in and just looks at all of them laid out
32:05
Speaker 1: and says, Okay, I'm an objective third party, you know,
32:09
Speaker 1: and say is this really important? And I think why
32:12
Speaker 1: I have the business running a podcast shoe and have
32:14
Speaker 1: people like you, honest, I want people here like here
32:17
Speaker 1: the outside perspective here, a different resource that they can
32:20
Speaker 1: tap into from it and see like, well, maybe I
32:23
Speaker 1: should consider that I benefited so much Joe when we
32:27
Speaker 1: were talking before we recorded of getting coached, having a
32:30
Speaker 1: mentor having somebody outside of kind of the menu show
32:33
Speaker 1: of the day to day and kind of give me
32:35
Speaker 1: a different perspective and hold a mirror back.
32:38
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely, And I think as well that that's probably
32:40
Speaker 2: especially important when you are running your own business. You know,
32:45
Speaker 2: like when I was running that charity, I really appreciated
32:50
Speaker 2: colleagues or the colleagues who were also running similar charities,
32:54
Speaker 2: and well the managers that I knew out in the
32:57
Speaker 2: wider voluntary sector, being able to have people that I
33:00
Speaker 2: could then chat through issues, problems, get a.
33:04
Speaker 3: Different perspective on it. And I think that.
33:09
Speaker 2: If you so, it's fine for me now in my role,
33:12
Speaker 2: I've got somebody who's line managing me, who I can
33:16
Speaker 2: use completely to reflect over the work that I'm doing,
33:20
Speaker 2: to give me that objective view in whereas that's not
33:25
Speaker 2: always as easy to do when you're you know, some
33:29
Speaker 2: people are running a business starting off just on their own,
33:33
Speaker 2: So I think you've got to have somebody to bounce
33:36
Speaker 2: that off.
33:37
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter who it is.
33:39
Speaker 2: But I know we've we've had loads of people in
33:43
Speaker 2: our organization really benefit from mentoring. I've mentored somebody from
33:48
Speaker 2: a different team who's nothing to do with my area.
33:52
Speaker 2: And it does mean that you don't get as tied
33:56
Speaker 2: into the day to day work and business. You're able
34:00
Speaker 2: to you step a little bit back and you're able
34:02
Speaker 2: to just hear what they're saying and what they're finding
34:06
Speaker 2: challenging or what they want to learn and develop and
34:09
Speaker 2: come in at it from a really outside angle, which
34:13
Speaker 2: sometimes is difficult to do within within the team because
34:17
Speaker 2: you get a bit bogged down by the detail, don't
34:19
Speaker 2: you really?
34:20
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, I'm glad to hear that you've you've been
34:24
Speaker 1: you've been mentored and be a mentor. I feel like
34:26
Speaker 1: that's a life long journey. I mean, there's always people
34:30
Speaker 1: actually the left of us that we can help, and
34:32
Speaker 1: there's there's stuff that I don't know, and I think
34:33
Speaker 1: that there's there's things I can still learn right and
34:36
Speaker 1: still develop myself.
34:38
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely, I mean, and I think in my earlier
34:41
Speaker 2: days in my career, I kind of didn't think I
34:44
Speaker 2: needed anybody.
34:45
Speaker 3: I was very self sufficient.
34:47
Speaker 2: I just used to crack on do it, you know,
34:49
Speaker 2: I'd go on training and so it wasn't as if
34:51
Speaker 2: I wasn't reflecting well. I really didn't see the benefit
34:55
Speaker 2: of anybody kind of being somebody that I was accountable to,
34:59
Speaker 2: or somebody to be able to kind of chat that through.
35:02
Speaker 2: And then I had a really bad manager once and
35:04
Speaker 2: then realize that maybe this was important. And then I
35:09
Speaker 2: had another manager who I just really never spoke to
35:13
Speaker 2: or saw. And yet I saw a colleague of mine
35:16
Speaker 2: who was also managed by them, and she had lots
35:19
Speaker 2: of conversations, whereas I was just kind of leaving myself
35:23
Speaker 2: off on a tangent and realized that there was a
35:26
Speaker 2: real that person was getting a lot more out of
35:28
Speaker 2: her than I was. So then when I moved to
35:30
Speaker 2: my next manager, I thought that I'm changing this. I'm
35:33
Speaker 2: now going to spend time, you know, and and use
35:38
Speaker 2: the person chat through issues and problems. And I do
35:42
Speaker 2: now find it really really useful just somebody, just somebody
35:47
Speaker 2: bringing in a different perspective and able to just really
35:51
Speaker 2: gently help you to think kind of differently about it
35:55
Speaker 2: and whether there was anything else you could have done
35:57
Speaker 2: in that circumstance or a different way that it could
36:00
Speaker 2: have been dealt with. And those are the kind of
36:03
Speaker 2: conversations that then, you know, after work, maybe driving home
36:07
Speaker 2: or going for a run, and I'll be really mulling
36:10
Speaker 2: it over and thinking about what she said and what
36:13
Speaker 2: I can then change or do differently as a result
36:16
Speaker 2: of that, and I think, yeah, you've got to have
36:18
Speaker 2: somebody like that. Otherwise it is a very lonely, lonely
36:22
Speaker 2: place if you haven't.
36:25
Speaker 1: Well, we're getting close to endo the podcast. Joe, this
36:28
Speaker 1: has been so fun and enlightening. I hope our audience
36:31
Speaker 1: that are hearing this, you know, are enjoying and learning that, Hey,
36:35
Speaker 1: you know what, wherever you are in the world, these
36:40
Speaker 1: issues that if they don't get resolved and they don't
36:43
Speaker 1: get addressed, you know, you're living i'd say, diminished life
36:47
Speaker 1: and an opportunity to live in your fullest uh. And
36:50
Speaker 1: I would want to encourage you, and I think, Joe,
36:52
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for you having being on the podcast. I
36:54
Speaker 1: hope everybody's just getting the energy and the light that
36:56
Speaker 1: she's bringing here today and just experience Shoe. It's really
37:00
Speaker 1: awesome having you here.
37:02
Speaker 2: Oh, no problem. I mean I love to talk. I
37:05
Speaker 2: could probably talk for another two hours.
37:07
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yeah, easy.
37:09
Speaker 1: Come back. We'll just have to have another episode.
37:12
Speaker 3: I've got a lot.
37:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, well you as we're wrapping it up here though,
37:18
Speaker 1: you know, you covered a lot of different things. But
37:20
Speaker 1: I always like to give guests an opportunity to kind
37:22
Speaker 1: of give a parting word of advice or or kind
37:24
Speaker 1: of a nugget or something that is just meaningful of
37:27
Speaker 1: all the things that we talked about today. If you
37:29
Speaker 1: would just say, Okay, leaving this podcast is one thing
37:31
Speaker 1: I just want you to consider. What would you just
37:34
Speaker 1: want to share with our listeners as we're wrapping up
37:36
Speaker 1: the podcast.
37:38
Speaker 2: I mean, as I say, I don't feel like I'm
37:40
Speaker 2: an expert in any of this at all, but I
37:42
Speaker 2: would say that as I've got older in my career
37:46
Speaker 2: and more confident, I think the importance of being authentic
37:49
Speaker 2: and just being you and just trusting who you are
37:52
Speaker 2: and just going with it and being real. And I
37:56
Speaker 2: think that that really gets you somewhere and people really
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Speaker 2: respond to that.
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Speaker 3: So just have confidence in who you are.
38:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that, Joe. And and you're if you're
38:08
Speaker 1: if you're you know, maybe not clear on that You've
38:10
Speaker 1: got here me, David Carr here is doing your business.
38:13
Speaker 1: Happy to have a conversation a deeper die with you
38:15
Speaker 1: on that. Of course, we love folks subscribing and sharing
38:19
Speaker 1: the podcast. Uh, leaving your comments, We'll make sure Joe
38:22
Speaker 1: gets them. Uh so that Joe, maybe you can help
38:25
Speaker 1: respond to a comment or two that we get into
38:27
Speaker 1: the podcast. Uh. We appreciate you guys listening, Uh coming
38:31
Speaker 1: back week after week again. Joe. Thanks for being on
38:34
Speaker 1: the podcast. Wonderful having you.
38:36
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much, it's.
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Speaker 1: A lot of fun. Thanks everybody. The next time, be well,
38:40
Speaker 1: take care.