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Black in Thailand: Smiles, Stereotypes… and the Ugly Truth · Babes, how did you get here

• 0:00
  I go back home and interestingly this is actually the first time that my father called me son
• 0:07
  my son
• 0:10
  April
• 0:12
  this habit the Africans have
• 0:15
  especially older generation, African parents where they
• 0:19
  don't really tell you that they love them, they give you signs
• 0:23
  like a beauty
• 0:25
  no, that's the way of showing you that they love me
• 0:28
  so I went into the zone
• 0:31
  and I see the sky
• 0:34
  looks to the side
• 0:37
  and looks back
• 0:39
  or whoever it was
• 0:41
  and then I see a tick of glasses and it looks up again
• 0:44
  and it was my son
• 0:46
  I cried
• 0:48
  because it was just so
• 0:50
  I think it's the acceptance and the realization
• 0:55
  the Kikombe, an African educator and creator
• 0:59
  who believes what you pour into yourself shapes your life
• 1:03
  he's a teacher, a storyteller, a father, and a man
• 1:06
  rediscovering his roots
• 1:08
  from unexpected turns to powerful moments of clarity
• 1:12
  his journey is filled with insight, creativity, and purpose
• 1:16
  but before you tell us your story, I have to ask
• 1:19
  Babes, how did you get here?
• 1:22
  What?
• 1:23
  What an intro!
• 1:25
  I'm very excited
• 1:27
  I have never been introduced like that, that is phenomenal
• 1:30
  Thank you
• 1:31
  Thank you
• 1:32
  You make an African man blush
• 1:36
  How did I get here?
• 1:38
  Google
• 1:39
  So you Googled specifically Puket?
• 1:43
  Interesting, so this is how it happened
• 1:45
  it was 2007
• 1:48
  I were colleagues with a couple of people who had lived in Thailand before
• 1:54
  it was time for me to renew my contract
• 1:57
  and what they said is you look like a very interesting person
• 2:01
  you're excited about international education
• 2:03
  you're excited about international experience
• 2:06
  have you thought about working elsewhere
• 2:09
  other than Africa?
• 2:10
  I was living in Tanzania by then
• 2:12
  and they said well, Thailand for example would be a great country for you
• 2:17
  to go to because it's beautiful, great culture
• 2:22
  similar to East African community
• 2:24
  similar to East African sense of community
• 2:27
  and women are beautiful
• 2:30
  and women are beautiful
• 2:32
  so why don't you try
• 2:34
  and that night I had never thought of Googling Thailand
• 2:38
  other than knowing that there was a city called Yala
• 2:41
  and then Bangkok and the usual Puket
• 2:44
  sort of what do you call them, stereotypes
• 2:48
  however when I Googled teaching jobs in Thailand
• 2:52
  what came up was very exciting
• 2:54
  and then my journey began
• 2:56
  So you're in Tanzania and you're teaching
• 2:59
  and you're simply looking for another opportunity to teach elsewhere
• 3:03
  and you come to Thailand
• 3:05
  I hadn't thought of leaving Africa yet
• 3:08
  it was time for me to renew my contract
• 3:11
  and my colleague, Sally, who we're still friends to now
• 3:15
  is the one who introduced me to the idea of coming to Asia
• 3:19
  and said what have you thought of Thailand?
• 3:23
  So you're in Africa, you're living your best life?
• 3:26
  Absolutely
• 3:28
  If there's any place I would ever want to retire
• 3:31
  and live forever, Tanzania
• 3:33
  Really?
• 3:34
  Yeah, specifically in Russia
• 3:36
  and a very small area called Kisongo
• 3:39
  babes, quick one
• 3:40
  You know how CEOs lead teams with clarity, strategy and calm?
• 3:44
  Now imagine parenting just like that
• 3:47
  My course, Parent Like A CEO, helps you build a home
• 3:50
  that runs with confidence, not chaos, no shouting, no guesswork, no guilt
• 3:55
  Just systems, structure and a mindset that works for you and your babies
• 4:00
  I will show you how to lead your family like I have led my teens
• 4:04
  with vision, compassion and a plan that sticks
• 4:07
  This is about applying business principles to raise happy and healthy kids
• 4:11
  So if you're tired of ringing it and ready to parent with intention
• 4:15
  click the link to check out Parent Like A CEO
• 4:18
  You've got these babes and now you'll have the tools too
• 4:21
  Can you describe to me life in Tanzania?
• 4:25
  So first of all in Tanzania when they say
• 4:30
  the way the people in Kisongo greet you
• 4:33
  they greet you by saying sorry
• 4:36
  That the direct translation, so the direct translation for the word is pole
• 4:42
  pole is sorry
• 4:44
  And from what I understand the origin was because the sun was quite hot
• 4:48
  and when you meet a stranger you have to show them that you have to empathize with them
• 4:53
  to a certain level and so what they did is they would empathize with the strangers
• 4:57
  they say sorry the sun is so hot what can I offer you
• 5:01
  And so that culture was instilled amongst the people
• 5:05
  Yeah, so how you live in Tanzania?
• 5:08
  So I'll describe to you where I lived
• 5:12
  The backyard if I was in the backyard I could see Mount Moshi
• 5:18
  It's vast beautiful but up there you could see Mount Moshi
• 5:22
  In the morning my front yard in the morning the landscape
• 5:27
  of looking the other end you could see Mount Kilimanjaro
• 5:32
  Yeah, yeah in Tanzania when I lived there I didn't lock doors
• 5:39
  We didn't have a gate where I lived
• 5:42
  I was safe, there were very few cases of theft
• 5:46
  People were friendly, life is cheap, super cheap
• 5:51
  If I have to compare it to my country where I'm from in Kenya
• 5:55
  probably half is cheap
• 5:58
  It's amazing that you talk about safety
• 6:00
  because I do think that there is a stereotype
• 6:03
  particularly when we talk about the continent of Africa
• 6:05
  First of all people love to just group the whole continent as one country
• 6:09
  You would never do that for any other continent
• 6:12
  We appreciate that there are different cultures within these spaces
• 6:15
  but for some reason Africa is just one place
• 6:18
  And the second thing I think that a lot of people presume that living in Africa
• 6:23
  whether it's Tanzania, Kenya, etc. that safety would be the number one concern
• 6:28
  as someone who is from Kingston, Jamaica, where a lot of people immediately start thinking
• 6:33
  ghetto and gunshots and I stop just consuming a very narrow view
• 6:39
  and thinking that you know spaces
• 6:42
  So it's beautiful to hear about your unique experience in Tanzania
• 6:46
  because I think it would contradict for many people the imagination
• 6:50
  that kind of runs wild when you don't know
• 6:53
  I mean they say that somebody who's never left their home believes that their mom is the best cook
• 6:59
  So if you've never left
• 7:01
  My kids are better believe that I'm the best cook long after they move home
• 7:06
  No, no, no, no, my mom was the best cook
• 7:08
  We are not going to argue about this, what is your problem?
• 7:11
  My children must think that I don't care which restaurant they eat at, I don't care whose food they taste
• 7:17
  the conclusion must come back to
• 7:21
  But it's not as good as my mom
• 7:23
  April's kids, hey, I'm sorry you've heard
• 7:27
  Yeah, the stereotypes who always exist
• 7:30
  I for the longest time I had this stereotype that if I ever moved to America I'll get shot
• 7:36
  Safety
• 7:38
  When it comes to safety I've always looked at it this way
• 7:42
  If you go to a country and you can see kids riding their bikes in the evening
• 7:47
  You can see a woman walking towards you but they don't cross the road and clutch their bag
• 7:53
  As they walk by they actually smile past you and go
• 7:56
  Then there's a level of safety there
• 7:58
  And there's a level of community there that you can accept
• 8:01
  And that is what I saw in Tanzania
• 8:03
  I see part of that in Thailand
• 8:07
  Do you know what? It actually exists almost everywhere
• 8:10
  It depends on the community that one lives in
• 8:14
  I'm not sure it exists in London to be fair
• 8:17
  My children are born there and from a very young age we always say Fet Kuku
• 8:23
  Which is wave and they would always wave and blockuses at everyone from the push chair
• 8:29
  And 99% of the time they would be ignored
• 8:32
  Or people would see them and just turn the other way
• 8:35
  And that's when you're less than two
• 8:38
  And I always say I feel like a part of your soul must have died for you to have a child
• 8:43
  Trying to interact with you and you not find the ability to just share in that moment
• 8:49
  So I would strongly disagree with you that it happens everywhere
• 8:52
  I wish it were true but from my experience particularly in the UK it's not the case
• 8:58
  Because you've explained and painted a picture from the point of view of a kid
• 9:06
  I actually agree with you
• 9:09
  I think children see a level of innocence that not many of us adults have
• 9:16
  And I cannot ignore the innocence of children
• 9:21
  I think that is one of the beautiful things about being in Thailand
• 9:24
  Just as a tourist that there is a true love for children
• 9:27
  As a black person when I travel one of the things I think about is how will we be received
• 9:32
  And to be honest the first time I came to Thailand earlier this year I wasn't sure
• 9:36
  But I didn't have any concerns so I was like cool let's go
• 9:39
  I wasn't ready for the genuine love that strangers show to my girls here
• 9:45
  And for me that is a true characteristic of any community that I think is precious
• 9:52
  You know you have people where I'm trying to tip you after dinner
• 9:56
  And you're not taking my tip but you're going to find hair clips
• 9:59
  The amount of hair clips that we have consumed
• 10:01
  Sorry the amount of hair clips that we have received on this trip is ridiculous
• 10:06
  Even yesterday we checked into our Airbnb and the lady at the front came out with some beautiful high-biscus hair clips
• 10:12
  I mean I don't know where everyone's keeping the hair clips but I'm very happy that they're so willing to share
• 10:17
  And I think that is a beautiful part of any culture where we can really see children
• 10:22
  And acknowledge them and just love on them
• 10:25
  I agree I agree I think I think Thai people do it different
• 10:29
  Thai people value I don't want to say the vulnerable but Thai people value children
• 10:35
  They value people who students for example they value teachers and they value older generation
• 10:43
  And one experience that I thought was very exciting was one time we were coming back to Thailand
• 10:50
  And we had just had our second child
• 10:53
  So our first, the older daughter was sick
• 10:58
  I think she had a flu or something
• 11:01
  And so we had to carry her throughout
• 11:03
  And she was quite heavy
• 11:05
  And then the younger one was fidgety, she's troubled, ears haven't popped, probably jet lagged
• 11:11
  I'm not sure
• 11:13
  But interestingly when we got to, for example, when you got to check in
• 11:17
  Right from a soul that was sold to Puket
• 11:22
  You don't line up
• 11:25
  They would just say family is traveling with young kids, yes, you get first priority
• 11:30
  You just get the same priorities to board as those on business class and so on and so forth
• 11:35
  Then you get to immigration, it's the same thing
• 11:38
  They see you with a child and they go, hey, you may proceed and go forward
• 11:42
  To get your luggage, you already have somebody to help you with your luggage
• 11:47
  It might look like a small thing but it gives you reason to come back
• 11:51
  Yeah, it's very telling
• 11:53
  And when you grow up with that because I remember being pregnant in Jamaica
• 11:58
  I was pregnant during COVID and so we're in Jamaica for one of the lockdowns that became extended
• 12:04
  And Jamaica was the best place for me to be pregnant
• 12:07
  Again, the way our society treats the most vulnerable
• 12:12
  It is just incredible to experience
• 12:14
  And obviously I've only been pregnant once
• 12:17
  So yes, I know Jamaica from a general kindness
• 12:20
  But I don't know it from this experience and I would go in to go to the supermarket
• 12:25
  I would literally have two things in my hand
• 12:27
  Not heavy, not like a big basket
• 12:30
  And the lady who's at the cashier working says, no mommy, take my seat
• 12:35
  I'm like, no, no, it's okay, it's just two things
• 12:38
  I can't work here and you stand up in that line
• 12:41
  Take my seat, I said, right
• 12:43
  And I just sat down and that was it all the time
• 12:47
  Whereas again to contrast my experience in London
• 12:50
  Where you have to wear a badge that says, baby on board when you're going on the train
• 12:54
  Because as soon as you step onto the train, everybody's eyes go down
• 12:58
  And all of a sudden no one can see that you exist
• 13:01
  Because nobody wants to give up their seat
• 13:03
  And you see this play out where people are like, well I didn't get you pregnant
• 13:08
  Why are you on the train? Why don't you get your...
• 13:10
  I wasn't there
• 13:11
  Literally, why don't you get your partner to get you a car?
• 13:14
  And this energy around just being mean is something that I just don't understand
• 13:21
  And I think that as we move in certain directions in what we would describe as the West
• 13:27
  I think that when you have lived a very different experience
• 13:32
  Sometimes you know that it's not quite right
• 13:35
  But when you go back to where your soul feels comfortable
• 13:38
  You're actually like, it definitely wasn't right
• 13:41
  It's true, you know, whatever, Trevor Noah, you know Trevor Noah
• 13:45
  He says it very beautifully, he says that as the economy grows
• 13:49
  As we become richer and richer, we lose community
• 13:53
  And that's true
• 13:55
  If you have to describe what your experience in London
• 13:58
  We have to put up a badge and then to show that you're pregnant
• 14:02
  I mean I can remember growing up when I was younger
• 14:06
  Where a pregnant woman was a daughter
• 14:08
  A pregnant woman was like a symbol, like a crown of the community
• 14:14
  Because people knew that they were growing their community in the society
• 14:18
  Wow!
• 14:19
  Crazy
• 14:20
  Things change
• 14:21
  Well you take me back to Tanzania and it sounds like you were happy
• 14:24
  And so my question is why did you choose to leave?
• 14:28
  I mean it's the human thing, right?
• 14:31
  The grass is always greener on the other end and me
• 14:34
  And I think growing up we'd always been sold this sort of dream
• 14:41
  That if you go and live abroad you probably are more successful
• 14:45
  And fortunately or unfortunately it was a dream that was sold to me
• 14:51
  And it came to be
• 14:54
  So I had that thirst to have that international experience
• 14:59
  To go and live and work as an educator out of my content
• 15:03
  How big a thing it is as an African, what are you talking about?
• 15:06
  And so I decided to drink from that cup
• 15:10
  And this is where I am
• 15:14
  Man, they were challenges
• 15:16
  I'm going to say that there are so many similarities between Thailand
• 15:20
  and Tanzania in terms of community, in terms of safety, in terms of passion for language
• 15:28
  Not necessarily, I wouldn't say political dynamics or economical power and so on and so forth
• 15:36
  But the human experience that one would have is very similar
• 15:41
  Both countries are very welcoming to visitors
• 15:45
  Both countries have a sense of community
• 15:48
  Both countries have their passion for their language
• 15:51
  Tanzanians are very passionate about Swahili and so are ties
• 15:56
  Both countries are so embedded in religion
• 16:00
  So the ties have got Buddhism and Tanzanians of Christianity and so on and so forth
• 16:05
  Both countries have a huge sense of patriotism
• 16:09
  Tanzanians are so passionate about their culture and their country
• 16:14
  I think you and I have in a conversation earlier about what you call it patriotism
• 16:19
  And how it's a seed that's planted in us from a younger age
• 16:24
  It's pretty similar here as well
• 16:27
  They hunt in place at 6am, sorry 8am in every public institution
• 16:32
  And the parks and everything
• 16:34
  And then they hunt in place at 6pm in the parks and public places
• 16:37
  That's here in Thailand
• 16:39
  If you go to the cinemas, before the film starts
• 16:44
  I don't know if any other place you know does this
• 16:47
  Before the film starts, before the movie starts, they will play the national anthem
• 16:52
  In Thailand?
• 16:53
  Yes, that's right
• 16:54
  So we do exactly the same, exactly the same
• 16:57
  And it's only after leaving Jamaica that I realized how the brainwashing started
• 17:02
  So soon that Jamaica is the best place ever
• 17:05
  And I think that growing up in that environment, you feel limitless
• 17:09
  You feel that you can do all things for the sole reason that you are a Jamaican
• 17:15
  And I think that looking back on that, I'm like, you know, who do we think we are babes?
• 17:20
  We're a Jamaican, right? And that's always the energy that we get to have the privilege of carrying with us throughout the world
• 17:28
  I think it's a great thing to have though
• 17:30
  I think when you look at how we lived our lives
• 17:35
  And when we look at how we live our lives
• 17:37
  And there are situations that most of our communities and societies have been through
• 17:42
  Colonialism and issues like that
• 17:45
  The most important thing we have left now is our personality and ourselves, our sense of being
• 17:50
  We can do it, we can do as identity, we can do it, we're stronger, we're powerful
• 17:55
  Do you feel that you identify as Tanzanian or Kenyan?
• 17:59
  Kenyan
• 18:00
  Kenyan
• 18:01
  I was born and raised Kenyan
• 18:03
  Do you know what? I have a Kenyan passport, right?
• 18:06
  And that, to me, is the...
• 18:10
  What I would term as the identity was put on me, right?
• 18:16
  As time progresses, you realize that there is more in you than just that one nationality or one country that you are given
• 18:26
  There's so much that being a global human being can shape you to become later in life
• 18:35
  But yeah, I'm Ken
• 18:37
  Hey, what are you talking about?
• 18:41
  So you're in Tanzania, do you apply for jobs online?
• 18:45
  Yes
• 18:46
  And you get accepted for a position here in Puket?
• 18:49
  Very easy like that, can you read me?
• 18:51
  No
• 18:52
  I was with you
• 18:55
  I was like, okay, so I can get one too?
• 18:58
  I was going to go to Google
• 19:00
  No
• 19:01
  No, oh my gosh
• 19:03
  Tell me how it works
• 19:05
  Put your seatbelt on
• 19:07
  Now
• 19:09
  Get on Google, you apply for a job, of course there are those people that respond, there are those people that will ignore
• 19:15
  Then you'll get that automated response and so on and so forth
• 19:19
  One particular place is responded and they were excited about me
• 19:24
  And then they said I could go to...
• 19:26
  You get on an interview, Skype was coming up then, right?
• 19:29
  And so I could get on an interview
• 19:31
  We didn't have internet, so I had to go to an internet cafe
• 19:34
  You know if you've been to an internet cafe in Africa, it is the truth
• 19:38
  What do you mean?
• 19:39
  There are those people that are...
• 19:40
  Everything happens in an internet cafe in Africa
• 19:45
  There's those kids that are playing their video games, there are those people that are talking to their partners
• 19:51
  There's somebody who's open to their business and so on and so forth
• 19:55
  And yes, I did my interview there with my headphones
• 19:59
  And then they seemed pleased with me and then I did another one
• 20:04
  Who also seemed pleased with me and I think they...
• 20:07
  I'm not sure, they felt like they needed to probe me further
• 20:12
  Okay
• 20:13
  And yes, so then...
• 20:14
  When you say probe you further, what kind of things are they asking you?
• 20:17
  The same things
• 20:18
  It literally is the same, tell me about you, tell me about you
• 20:21
  I went through four interviews
• 20:24
  But, you know, but making it here, I realized that most other people only got one
• 20:30
  Oh!
• 20:31
  Yeah, yeah, yeah
• 20:33
  So you have four interviews for the same position?
• 20:35
  Yes
• 20:36
  And other people, one and done
• 20:38
  Yeah
• 20:39
  Why do you think that is?
• 20:40
  Do you want to make a guess?
• 20:42
  No, I'd like you to enlighten me
• 20:43
  There's something to do with their passports
• 20:45
  Okay
• 20:46
  Where are other people coming from?
• 20:48
  A good number of them are from Europe and America
• 20:55
  A few from Asia, Southeast Asia and the country
• 21:00
  But they're not accepting loads from the continent of Africa?
• 21:03
  No, no, no, not yet
• 21:05
  Even now, it's still an uphill task for an educated African
• 21:10
  To get a meaningful position in most institutions here
• 21:16
  And are we speaking specifically from an education perspective or industries across the board?
• 21:22
  From my experience, the ones I know, it's from the education perspective
• 21:26
  I haven't seen as many Africans get jobs in other industries
• 21:30
  There is a growing need and a growing population of Africans who are coming in here as educators
• 21:37
  And I'm a power to that
• 21:40
  But still, they still, they still some hesitance
• 21:43
  What do you teach?
• 21:44
  I teach language
• 21:45
  So I work with students who need language support, English language support
• 21:51
  Do you think that there's the perception that coming from Tanzania or another African country
• 21:57
  That you are not capable of teaching language here in Thailand?
• 22:01
  Yes
• 22:02
  Why?
• 22:03
  Because of miseducation
• 22:05
  There's a lot of miseducation
• 22:08
  And this is not just about the Thai people
• 22:11
  Of course, there's a huge number of ties that are not yet, you know, they haven't come to terms that Africa also has people that are meaningful in educators
• 22:22
  In English language, or in other areas, whichever subject that one can teach
• 22:29
  And that is, I mean, unfortunately, that will continue for the rest of the world
• 22:33
  There are loads of people
• 22:35
  You will find, for example, in this issue of schooling, there are so many educational institutions where westerners are the gatekeepers
• 22:45
  And unfortunately, based on what I've observed, there is a little bit of resistance to include other cultures that are not necessarily either European or American
• 22:57
  It's changing
• 22:58
  It's changing, I must say
• 23:00
  But for the bigger part of it
• 23:03
  When you were going through that process of interviewing several times, being asked for repetitive questions, which I imagine can be a little bit frustrating
• 23:11
  Did you ever think of choosing a different destination?
• 23:14
  Of course, I was applying for jobs everywhere
• 23:16
  Okay
• 23:17
  Yeah, I'd applied for a job in Canada
• 23:21
  I didn't, whoa, I got the job, I went through interviews, I never got the visa
• 23:27
  Yeah, the reason they gave me for the visa is they said that I didn't give them reason enough to show that I would come back to Kenya
• 23:34
  It's the same, I smiled because when I was applying for school in America, it's the same thing
• 23:40
  To get your student visa, you needed to show as a student that you had all the income in the world to support your abroad
• 23:48
  But also to give this inclination that you were going to leave their country
• 23:52
  When you're like 17, 18, you personally don't have much
• 23:57
  And so the responsibility then goes to your parents, which at the time even recognized how much of an injustice that could be when we're talking about the pursuit of education
• 24:06
  Right
• 24:07
  So it's a bit of a catch-22
• 24:09
  It's just, unfortunately, just the way the world is designed at the moment
• 24:15
  But I'm encouraged because it's changing, it's gradually changing, there's more and more people realizing that it's a global world
• 24:22
  It's just not about the passport, right?
• 24:25
  Yeah
• 24:26
  You say it's not about the passport, it's funny, as pro-Jamaican as I am, I needed my children to have a British passport
• 24:32
  Just because I know that later on in life, it could perhaps make things a bit easier for them
• 24:38
  And while living in London isn't necessarily the best thing for us right now, undeniably, a British passport is a better passport if you can say that than a Jamaican passport
• 24:49
  I have both, and it's so funny because I have a Jamaican passport mainly for the fact of letting the world know that despite my accent, which might confuse you at times, let's not ever question
• 25:01
  You know, and we'll have a Jamaican passport for the same reason, even if I barely use it, it just feels good having it in the pocket of my bag
• 25:09
  It's a software that was instilled in us that we just have to accept
• 25:13
  You know, I'm Kenyan, I will always be Kenyan, right? It was instilled, it was installed, and I have to live with it
• 25:22
  Amazing
• 25:23
  When you came to Thailand, did you have other opportunities for other countries, or was Thailand the only one that was successful?
• 25:30
  I mean, at the time I arrived in Thailand
• 25:32
  2007
• 25:33
  After I arrived or before I...
• 25:35
  Before you got here
• 25:36
  Yes, so then, as I mentioned earlier, so I had that opportunity to go and work in Canada
• 25:41
  Right
• 25:42
  For the visa, sure
• 25:43
  Then there was Thailand, and I had another opportunity in Dubai
• 25:48
  Okay
• 25:49
  But then the ties were quick enough
• 25:53
  I wouldn't say the ties, but the school in Thailand was quick enough to offer me the opportunity
• 25:59
  And I wasn't going to wait, right?
• 26:02
  So then I took it up
• 26:05
  And presumably this is your first trip to Thailand when you take that position
• 26:09
  In 2007, yes, that was my first trip to Thailand
• 26:12
  Please walk me through from deciding that you're going, you bought your ticket, you're getting on the plane to landing
• 26:20
  So my sister, Damar
• 26:23
  My sister, Damar paid for my ticket
• 26:26
  Right, when I got the opportunity and my sister, Damar, I love you
• 26:31
  My sister, Damar, paid for my ticket and said, here, you're going to Thailand, do you?
• 26:37
  Of course, I announced to my friends, my family that I was leaving, and then it was time to go
• 26:43
  At the time I was seeing this lady
• 26:45
  I shed loads of tears at the airport
• 26:48
  The lady who was when I was checking in, the lady who was looking at my paper
• 26:54
  I was like, why are you crying?
• 26:56
  She said, I'm leaving my home
• 26:58
  She said, you come back, Rachel
• 27:00
  How old are you?
• 27:01
  I was 20, goodness me, 26, 26
• 27:05
  Okay
• 27:06
  25, 26
• 27:07
  Young
• 27:08
  Young, fresh, lethal
• 27:10
  You know, like
• 27:12
  Yeah, and then so I show up, I land in Thailand, I see a sea of yellow
• 27:22
  Everyone is wearing a yellow shirt
• 27:25
  And I go, I was wearing a Kenyan shirt with a white Kenyan shirt with a flag
• 27:33
  Because we have to show that we're Kenyan, right?
• 27:36
  And so everybody around me is wearing a sea of yellow
• 27:39
  So I had just arrived and they were about to...
• 27:44
  It was the year that the late King was celebrating, I think, 60 years of...
• 27:52
  60 years in...
• 27:54
  Was it his 60th birthday or 60 years?
• 27:57
  Yeah, 60 years as King of the Monarchy
• 28:00
  Yeah, and so everything was yellow
• 28:02
  I was like, this is so organized, everybody was so nice, people were smiling at me
• 28:06
  The portraits of the King everywhere, there was food and plenty
• 28:11
  Which by first striking thing was the food was super cheap
• 28:16
  At the time, rice was actually free, right?
• 28:20
  You go and buy food and then you get rice
• 28:23
  I'm not sure about rice at the moment, but...
• 28:28
  I don't eat rice
• 28:30
  No?
• 28:31
  No, I don't eat rice
• 28:32
  If you cooked for me in your home, I would eat the rice, right?
• 28:36
  Because you cooked for me, of course I'm going to eat the rice
• 28:38
  But in general, I don't eat rice
• 28:40
  I find it to be a filler on the plate
• 28:42
  Just to kind of bulk things up
• 28:44
  It doesn't taste particularly amazing
• 28:46
  Unless we were talking about Jamaican rice and peas
• 28:48
  Because the coconut milk...
• 28:50
  We throw it down
• 28:52
  That time, it's a definite place on the plate
• 28:57
  But in general, I would rather have more vegetables
• 29:00
  I would rather have some grains
• 29:02
  Or, like, if I'm thinking of just a simple carb
• 29:04
  I would rather have pasta to rice
• 29:06
  And being a Jamaican and getting like your box lunch
• 29:10
  Which is always rice, right?
• 29:12
  It might be fried chicken, curry goat, curry chicken
• 29:14
  But there's always rice in our box lunch
• 29:16
  And you tell the lady, could I get no rice please?
• 29:19
  And just some extra veg?
• 29:20
  What do you mean you don't eat rice?
• 29:22
  No, I just don't eat rice
• 29:24
  Who is your mother?
• 29:26
  And it becomes this whole interrogation
• 29:28
  Just that lady
• 29:30
  Take the money
• 29:32
  I will pay extra
• 29:34
  But I don't want rice please
• 29:36
  And it just, brain does not compute
• 29:38
  Rice is such an essential part of Jamaican culture
• 29:40
  Similarly, coming to Thailand
• 29:42
  Rice is with everything
• 29:44
  Every time I place an order
• 29:46
  I will order veg
• 29:48
  I will order all the dishes
• 29:50
  Oh, you want some rice with that?
• 29:52
  No, thanks, I'm fine
• 29:54
  And there's a moment of really
• 29:56
  But there's definitely some misunderstanding
• 29:58
  My children on the other hand
• 30:00
  Their blood is clearly Jamaican
• 30:02
  They also are Chinese
• 30:04
  So they are back to their roots with the rice
• 30:06
  And they love it
• 30:08
  But yeah, I just don't eat rice
• 30:10
  That is a shocker
• 30:12
  But yeah, if you ever come to our family
• 30:14
  We'll make you gali
• 30:16
  And the gali is maize meal
• 30:18
  That is also grounded maize meal
• 30:20
  That we grind it
• 30:22
  And mix it up with water
• 30:24
  It's a military foo foo
• 30:26
  But it's gali
• 30:28
  And we eat that beast still
• 30:30
  It's the truth
• 30:32
  It's the truth
• 30:34
  It hits your spine
• 30:36
  And your bone marrow all the way
• 30:38
  I love it
• 30:40
  First taste
• 30:42
  Amazing
• 30:44
  And you said it's yugali
• 30:46
  Yugali
• 30:48
  So yugali, some people would call it sima
• 30:50
  Yeah, sima
• 30:52
  Yeah, and mix it
• 30:54
  Some people would make it with maize flour
• 30:56
  Mix it with cassava
• 30:58
  Ooh, we love cassava
• 31:00
  It's good, it's mañok
• 31:02
  You see?
• 31:04
  Mañok
• 31:06
  We call it
• 31:08
  So you get here and the food
• 31:10
  The food is great
• 31:12
  The people are nice
• 31:14
  They stare at me a lot
• 31:16
  A lot
• 31:18
  They excited about my skin
• 31:20
  So the stare isn't with malice
• 31:22
  It's a curious stare
• 31:24
  Of course
• 31:26
  Yes, I've...
• 31:28
  The stare is not because
• 31:30
  Hey, they're just excited
• 31:32
  They're looking at you
• 31:34
  They always have this fascination
• 31:36
  My skin is so smooth
• 31:38
  So that was a shock for me
• 31:40
  I got used to being
• 31:42
  Stranger
• 31:44
  I got used to being a stranger
• 31:46
  But very helpful people around me
• 31:48
  A particular case I remember very well
• 31:50
  In my first house I lived in
• 31:52
  I lived in a beautiful house
• 31:54
  Somewhere in the outskirts of Bangkok
• 31:56
  Two bedroom houses
• 31:58
  Quiet!
• 32:00
  Overlooking a rice fields
• 32:02
  Quiet!
• 32:04
  And when I moved in
• 32:06
  I did not realize it would be that hot
• 32:10
  The heat here is no joke
• 32:12
  The heat is heating
• 32:14
  It's real
• 32:16
  I went to this house
• 32:18
  And my neighbor there
• 32:20
  Mr. Mann
• 32:22
  I think he was a cop back in the days
• 32:24
  But spoke very little English
• 32:26
  But we found a way to discuss
• 32:28
  I had a small little
• 32:30
  Dictionary
• 32:32
  Thai, English dictionary
• 32:34
  Because I didn't have a phone
• 32:36
  Smart phone back then
• 32:38
  It was the analog phone
• 32:40
  And there was a night
• 32:42
  I think the second or third night
• 32:44
  The second night
• 32:46
  I was thinking about
• 32:48
  My life thinking why
• 32:50
  Because it was too hot
• 32:52
  To be in the house
• 32:54
  I didn't have an air conditioner
• 32:56
  It was a huge spacious house
• 32:58
  And he came to me
• 33:00
  And he said
• 33:02
  You ok?
• 33:04
  And I said
• 33:06
  Is it hot?
• 33:08
  Yes it is hot
• 33:10
  He just went back to his house
• 33:12
  He got me a fan
• 33:14
  The next day
• 33:16
  He got me two or three
• 33:18
  And fans
• 33:20
  You know those little fans
• 33:22
  That you keep putting on your hand
• 33:24
  And then every single day
• 33:26
  It was just a day of bringing me food
• 33:28
  And neighbors bringing me rice
• 33:30
  And things like that
• 33:32
  There were always those that would come outside my house
• 33:34
  And stare and stare
• 33:36
  And then wink
• 33:38
  Wave and then go away
• 33:40
  Just that kind of shock
• 33:42
  Being a stranger
• 33:44
  When you have described that in Tanzania
• 33:46
  You felt such a strong part of community
• 33:50
  Can you explain what those early times
• 33:52
  Before you created a community of your own
• 33:54
  What that felt like
• 33:56
  In your twenties
• 33:58
  This is the first time you're so far away
• 34:00
  And I can't imagine
• 34:02
  What you were going through
• 34:04
  I think it was frustrating at first
• 34:06
  At first it was frustrating
• 34:08
  You know if you go to the market
• 34:10
  And you can feel the eyes probing into you
• 34:14
  There's a level of discomfort
• 34:16
  You obviously have
• 34:18
  And I had that discomfort
• 34:20
  You know
• 34:22
  But I don't know
• 34:24
  There's something about me
• 34:26
  That the older I get
• 34:28
  They less I care what people think about me
• 34:30
  And I've always been
• 34:32
  I learned that from my sister
• 34:34
  And my sister told me
• 34:36
  Things about you
• 34:38
  Whether it's positive or negative
• 34:40
  It's their problem
• 34:42
  You do you
• 34:44
  What they think about you
• 34:46
  Is their problem
• 34:48
  You do your life
• 34:50
  Is your sister older than you?
• 34:52
  Yes
• 34:54
  She sounds like she has a lot of wisdom
• 34:56
  I've got loads of sisters
• 34:58
  From a big family
• 35:00
  So yeah
• 35:02
  I get advice from most of my older sisters
• 35:04
  They raised us big time
• 35:06
  And when you're here
• 35:08
  It's the early days before
• 35:10
  We can just jump on WhatsApp
• 35:12
  Or you know
• 35:14
  How are you keeping in touch with home
• 35:16
  Email is email
• 35:18
  And then Facebook
• 35:20
  Are just you know
• 35:22
  Was picking up
• 35:24
  So obviously people got on to Facebook
• 35:26
  High five
• 35:28
  I'm not sure if you remember high five
• 35:30
  Yeah so high five
• 35:32
  High five was
• 35:34
  Social media
• 35:36
  Sort of platform
• 35:38
  And it was
• 35:40
  It was just like Facebook
• 35:42
  But it was just high five
• 35:44
  Where you put your photos
• 35:46
  And then people can comment
• 35:48
  And people can send you messages
• 35:50
  They are this one
• 35:52
  This other one called my space
• 35:54
  Yes
• 35:56
  It was started by this guy called Tom
• 35:58
  So smiling and he was friends with everybody
• 36:00
  And he was like
• 36:02
  And he was like
• 36:04
  He was like this guy as well
• 36:06
  But sky was tricky
• 36:08
  Because he had to have an appointment
• 36:10
  To say hey let me meet you at this time
• 36:12
  And yeah so that's how I
• 36:14
  I'm mostly kept in touch
• 36:16
  What's the time difference between Thailand and Kenya
• 36:18
  It's just four hours
• 36:20
  Okay so not bad
• 36:22
  No not bad
• 36:24
  Not bad
• 36:26
  To this day
• 36:28
  The first time you go home
• 36:30
  After you're working here in Thailand
• 36:32
  Tell me where are we flying to
• 36:34
  And what's the distance between
• 36:36
  The time that you have arrived
• 36:38
  And you choose to go home
• 36:40
  This is interesting two years
• 36:42
  So two years after I
• 36:44
  No three years after I arrive in Thailand
• 36:46
  I go back home
• 36:48
  And interestingly
• 36:50
  This is actually the first time
• 36:52
  That my father ever called me his son
• 36:54
  My son
• 36:56
  Really
• 36:58
  Now
• 37:00
  By this time you're like 30
• 37:02
  Of course
• 37:04
  And it's the first time that your dad ever says my son
• 37:06
  My son
• 37:08
  Yeah
• 37:10
  I need answers I don't understand I have all these questions
• 37:12
  Which you sit belt on
• 37:14
  April
• 37:16
  There is this habit that Africans have
• 37:20
  Especially older generation African parents
• 37:22
  Where they don't really tell you that they love you
• 37:24
  They give you signs like
• 37:26
  Have you eaten
• 37:28
  You know that that's the way of showing you that they love you
• 37:30
  Have you done your homework
• 37:32
  And so they
• 37:34
  Have this kind of
• 37:36
  I don't know if it's just the way they were brought up
• 37:38
  I don't know if it's the
• 37:40
  I don't know if it's a colonial hangover
• 37:42
  That they have of being tough
• 37:44
  Yeah
• 37:46
  And so that's how
• 37:48
  Our parents raised us
• 37:50
  Our father my mom told us
• 37:52
  But my father for somewhat reason
• 37:54
  I do not remember
• 37:56
  So anyway he wasn't expecting me
• 37:58
  He sat in a living room reading a newspaper
• 38:00
  Because I didn't tell them I was coming
• 38:02
  It was meant to be a surprise
• 38:04
  And his sat is reading
• 38:06
  And he said he wore glasses like mine
• 38:08
  And
• 38:10
  I didn't knock because I knew at that time
• 38:12
  Around 7pm they haven't locked the door yet
• 38:14
  Okay
• 38:16
  And so I walk into the door
• 38:18
  And I see him stretched reading a newspaper
• 38:20
  And he looks to the side
• 38:24
  And then he looks back
• 38:26
  I think he thought I was my brother
• 38:28
  Or whoever it was
• 38:30
  And then I see him take off his glasses
• 38:32
  And he looks up again
• 38:34
  And he goes my son
• 38:36
  Oh
• 38:38
  Have you ever cried?
• 38:40
  Yeah I cried man
• 38:42
  Really?
• 38:44
  I cried so much
• 38:46
  Why?
• 38:48
  Because he
• 38:50
  The acceptance and the realization
• 38:52
  That he missed me
• 38:54
  Right?
• 38:56
  My dad and I did not we spoke on the phone
• 38:58
  But not as frequent
• 39:00
  Because he didn't have an email address
• 39:02
  He didn't need to know what's up or high five
• 39:04
  Or Tom's
• 39:06
  See my space
• 39:08
  So yeah so
• 39:10
  Just realizing that he
• 39:12
  Was seeing me again
• 39:14
  I think he almost didn't think he would see me
• 39:16
  I'm not sure
• 39:18
  And he cried as well
• 39:20
  He cried too
• 39:22
  Of course
• 39:24
  Was that the first time you were seeing your dad cry?
• 39:26
  No
• 39:28
  No
• 39:30
  That was the second time I saw my dad cry
• 39:32
  When was the first?
• 39:34
  My mom's death
• 39:36
  Yeah
• 39:38
  Wow
• 39:40
  Yeah
• 39:42
  That was the second time I saw my dad cry
• 39:44
  And I voted
• 39:46
  You can see it
• 39:48
  It was nearly dinner time
• 39:50
  So my mom was just making dinner
• 39:52
  And
• 39:54
  Yeah we didn't eat
• 39:56
  Why would you eat
• 39:58
  And the dinner is already presented itself from Thailand
• 40:02
  Yeah
• 40:04
  Yeah
• 40:06
  Yeah
• 40:08
  That was one that was around Christmas
• 40:10
  So this time I've seen my dad
• 40:12
  So I had to go and give my sisters a surprise as well
• 40:16
  I share with you that video me coming back home
• 40:20
  And so I come home
• 40:22
  My brother knows I'm here
• 40:24
  So he's the one who picked me from the airport
• 40:26
  We drove all the way to Kisun from Nairobi
• 40:28
  And go knock on the door
• 40:30
  And I'm really irritatingly ringing the doorbell
• 40:34
  Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding
• 40:36
  And I can hear my sister stomping
• 40:38
  Coming to the door
• 40:40
  And she probably think it's a true and kid who's coming to cut kills
• 40:44
  And I open the door and screams
• 40:48
  Wow
• 40:50
  And then my other sisters were upstairs I think
• 40:54
  And they all started screaming
• 40:56
  I don't know if they thought there was trouble
• 40:58
  Or somebody would
• 41:00
  Just screaming, just thinking
• 41:02
  She sees me and they go, wow
• 41:04
  Yeah
• 41:08
  Some neighbors came to help but of course there was no kills
• 41:12
  So yeah
• 41:14
  Oh wow
• 41:16
  Yeah, that was the first time coming back home
• 41:18
  From Thailand and nearly never came back to Thailand
• 41:20
  That was my next question
• 41:22
  Yeah
• 41:24
  How do you get received in this way, reconnect in this way
• 41:28
  And do you still decide to leave
• 41:30
  You know
• 41:32
  I think
• 41:34
  And this is a bit controversial
• 41:38
  But where you go and set up something that sort of sticks to your identity
• 41:44
  It almost becomes home
• 41:46
  It almost becomes home
• 41:48
  And there's push and pull factors
• 41:50
  I miss home, I'm lonely
• 41:52
  I cannot connect to the culture enough
• 41:54
  But deep down there's a level of home that you have created
• 41:58
  And you cannot wait to come back to it
• 42:02
  So by this point three years in
• 42:04
  You felt that Thailand was your new home
• 42:06
  It was beginning to be my new home
• 42:08
  And that's why it was
• 42:10
  What aspects of your life other than obviously you working
• 42:12
  You have a great neighbor
• 42:14
  What aspects are making it feel like home to you
• 42:18
  So those two factors like you mentioned
• 42:20
  I've got something stable
• 42:22
  I've got good friends that I've connected with here already
• 42:26
  And I'm safe
• 42:28
  You know
• 42:30
  It's a level of safety here
• 42:32
  That I almost cannot describe
• 42:34
  Right
• 42:36
  I can wake up
• 42:38
  Walk to 7-Eleven
• 42:40
  And be sure
• 42:42
  That even if I lock my door
• 42:44
  I'll come back home and everything will be okay
• 42:46
  Right
• 42:48
  And so that was that
• 42:50
  I think
• 42:52
  I think gauging in my past experiences
• 42:54
  Safety for me is very, very important
• 42:58
  But you said you felt safe in Tanzania
• 43:00
  Yes
• 43:02
  It was a different kind of safety
• 43:04
  Similar
• 43:06
  Similar
• 43:08
  But it was the creating of your own self
• 43:10
  Your own space
• 43:12
  Yes
• 43:14
  Creating your own self, your own space
• 43:16
  Growing your career
• 43:18
  Meeting people from
• 43:20
  Experience from every aspect of the world
• 43:22
  Meeting other Kenyans who are living here
• 43:24
  And making a living
• 43:26
  Creating new best friends
• 43:28
  And at that time I had a girlfriend
• 43:30
  I knew that I was going to be there
• 43:32
  You should have started with that
• 43:34
  You needed to start with love
• 43:36
  Don't be giving me all this safety
• 43:40
  That you told me was existing where you were before
• 43:42
  Love is safety
• 43:44
  Now I understand
• 43:46
  Yes
• 43:48
  So three years in and you already have a girlfriend
• 43:50
  And you're starting to build your own life
• 43:52
  That is independent of home
• 43:54
  Do you think that
• 43:56
  The Kikombe that is in Thailand
• 43:58
  Is different to the Kikombe in Tanzania
• 44:02
  You mean in terms of how I was back then
• 44:06
  Or if I go back now
• 44:08
  In terms of who you are back then
• 44:10
  So when you've reconnected with your family
• 44:12
  I'm just wondering if being in Thailand
• 44:14
  Where you are the stranger
• 44:16
  Gave you the freedom to recreate your own identity
• 44:20
  Yes
• 44:22
  I think in human beings when there's lack of something
• 44:26
  There's that inherent value to come up with something new
• 44:30
  That you create out of yourself
• 44:32
  And are we speaking to a lack of community
• 44:34
  When you've arrived in Thailand or are you lacking something else
• 44:36
  Partly that
• 44:38
  There's lack of community loneliness
• 44:40
  You get very lonely here
• 44:42
  You might think that you connect with the many people
• 44:44
  And you might have a lot of acquaintances
• 44:46
  But deep down you get lonely
• 44:48
  Is that even known?
• 44:50
  You get lonely, you get lonely
• 44:52
  Because there's cultural connections that you want
• 44:54
  That you cannot get
• 44:56
  And there's the physical cultural connection
• 44:58
  That you cannot explain
• 45:00
  But you need it
• 45:02
  You need to be in a room where most people are from
• 45:04
  They connect with you culturally
• 45:06
  Right
• 45:08
  And maybe this is just as you mentioned earlier
• 45:10
  Is that software that is instilled in you
• 45:12
  Being, I'm Joe Macon, I'm Ken
• 45:14
  There's lack of that here
• 45:18
  You will never have it forever
• 45:20
  And that also helps you rebuild something new
• 45:24
  Let's stick with that for a second
• 45:26
  Because I think
• 45:28
  When a lot of people talk about their life in Thailand
• 45:30
  And we love and appreciate the warm Thai culture, the smiles
• 45:34
  That in essence kind of contradicts this idea
• 45:38
  That we could appreciate all of those things
• 45:40
  And still feel a sense of loneliness
• 45:42
  Yes
• 45:44
  Do you think that sense of loneliness
• 45:46
  Is it too simple to say because you will never be Thai
• 45:50
  You will never look Thai
• 45:52
  You will never be Thai
• 45:54
  You will never sound Thai
• 45:56
  And how good your Thai is
• 45:58
  We will all know that you're not Thai
• 46:00
  And so is there a sense that that is the essence
• 46:02
  Of where that loneliness grows
• 46:04
  Or am I putting words in your mouth
• 46:06
  I wouldn't say
• 46:08
  It's because I will not be Thai
• 46:10
  I think it's because I haven't got that software in me
• 46:14
  When a child is young
• 46:16
  When they meet
• 46:18
  They're forming the foundation of their life
• 46:22
  There's a level of
• 46:24
  Culturally installed software
• 46:28
  That nothing can
• 46:30
  You know, nothing can under overdue
• 46:32
  And this is one of the struggles I have with raising my daughters as well
• 46:36
  My daughters were born here
• 46:38
  They have Kenyan and American passports
• 46:42
  So essentially
• 46:44
  So essentially they are Kenyan and American
• 46:46
  But you know they've never lived there
• 46:48
  They've visited
• 46:50
  They've never lived there
• 46:52
  How old are they?
• 46:54
  Youngest is 9
• 46:56
  And then the older one is 11
• 46:58
  And they've only lived here in Thailand
• 47:00
  They've only lived here
• 47:02
  And they speak Thai fluently
• 47:04
  Not fluently
• 47:06
  They would understand
• 47:08
  They go to international schools
• 47:10
  They would understand
• 47:12
  But they
• 47:14
  Not yet
• 47:16
  So in terms of their identity
• 47:18
  I know that I'm going to ask you to speak for them
• 47:20
  But presumably you've seen how they behave
• 47:22
  Or had these conversations
• 47:24
  I'm hoping
• 47:26
  And you can tell me how do they see themselves
• 47:28
  I think they will struggle
• 47:30
  And I think they struggle even now
• 47:32
  Because first of all
• 47:34
  They stand out
• 47:36
  They stand out
• 47:38
  They stand out
• 47:40
  And they are
• 48:05
  That is black. What am I? Okay. No. Have they been to Kenya? Yes. And what do they think about Kenya?
• 48:11
  I love it. They love it. We were meant to go to Kenya a month ago together and
• 48:16
  Because of certain issues we couldn't go and they were not happy. I don't think we're forgiven me yet
• 48:22
  Yeah
• 48:24
  No, I'm not happy because we were meant to have a big reunion where my sisters were bringing their families from America as well
• 48:30
  My other brother was coming from another place and my sister was coming or we were all you know
• 48:36
  We were all convening in one place and staying as a family and not hitting them hard
• 48:41
  Okay, yeah, and where in the States is your wife from? Wives from Kansas. Okay. Yeah. Have your kids been to Kansas? Yes
• 48:49
  We try and take them often in the Holy days
• 48:53
  It's just a commitment that we have
• 48:56
  So here in Thailand is there a reason why you your children don't speak Thai for example
• 49:02
  And is it fair to say that they're not
• 49:05
  Completely immersed in Thai culture because of the international school
• 49:09
  But yes, I think the reality is
• 49:14
  For you to speak it you you have to be fully exposed to it and
• 49:18
  Unfortunately, I I don't think my my wife and I have done a good job of exposing them fully to the Thai culture. Okay, you know
• 49:29
  Challenge some of the challenges being education some of the challenges being our background of work
• 49:34
  Sure, but we have to work and
• 49:36
  so
• 49:38
  so unfortunately
• 49:40
  They haven't been exposed to Thai culture as much, but yes, they do understand Thai culture. They speak it to a certain extent they
• 49:48
  They learn it at school as well
• 49:51
  They read it read and write it very cool
• 49:55
  Yeah, but no, I wouldn't say as fully as I
• 49:59
  It's not as fully as I would expect
• 50:01
  How did you meet your wife?
• 50:04
  Put your seat belt again
• 50:10
  Says is a short story and a long story the short story is we had a
• 50:15
  Common friend who was leaving
• 50:19
  Thailand to go represent the UK in the Olympics in judo. Okay, so we met at her farewell party
• 50:27
  That's a short story and what's the juicier part the juicier part is that we met on the dance floor
• 50:36
  She has moves or she has moves. I I want to say she has moves. I
• 50:40
  I
• 50:42
  Maybe I have the charisma, but she has the moves. Yeah, she can move she can move
• 50:47
  And we're living in Bangkok at the time. No, we're living in Puket. Okay. Yes, we met in Puket on the dance floor
• 50:53
  So when do you leave Bangkok to live in Puket? So two years after I live in Bangkok
• 50:59
  I decided that I wasn't feeling it
• 51:02
  Bangkok is great
• 51:04
  But there's certain aspects of Bangkok that can
• 51:07
  reveal the trouble in you, right?
• 51:11
  There's so much to do in Bangkok
• 51:13
  There's so many opportunities of something happening every single day
• 51:17
  So in respect, you probably don't save much
• 51:21
  Yeah
• 51:22
  It's very polluted
• 51:24
  Every every time we go to Bangkok and come back, he's just feel it you feel yeah
• 51:29
  Weird it's marquee and stuff
• 51:32
  And then professionally I just needed a bigger challenge. Okay, I needed a bigger challenge
• 51:37
  And I needed something that was going to offer me more
• 51:40
  more financial
• 51:41
  salary I guess
• 51:43
  Yeah, do you get paid more in Thailand as a teacher than you would in Tanzania?
• 51:48
  yes
• 51:50
  I think it depends I think it depends
• 51:52
  When it comes to international schools
• 51:55
  There's a
• 51:56
  There's sort of a level where there's a there's an area. There's a gray area there
• 52:00
  So it's not as it doesn't much matter so much
• 52:03
  So an international school in Thailand if it's you know, say tier one and we call them tier
• 52:09
  We'd put them in tears to tier one tier two tier three
• 52:11
  Is that according to performance?
• 52:13
  Not really. I think it according to certain things like
• 52:17
  Has the school been accredited by the council of international schools? There's
• 52:22
  What qualifications are there to teach you what correct tier one so what curriculum do they
• 52:29
  Teach so if you're in a certain tier level school
• 52:34
  Your salaries are likely to be similar. Okay, so if you're on say seven thousand dollars in Thailand
• 52:39
  You could easily be on seven thousand dollars in Tanzania. Okay. Yeah
• 52:44
  And you said earlier at the beginning that you felt that teachers were really respected here in Thailand
• 52:49
  Do you feel the same elsewhere or is that specific to to this region? I think ties take it a notch higher
• 52:56
  Okay, yes ties take it a notch higher and in Thailand if you mention your teacher immediately because the teaching profession has very well respected
• 53:05
  not in terms of
• 53:08
  And I'll give you an example. So so if I have to compare between Thailand and Kenya. So Kenya
• 53:14
  Kenya
• 53:16
  Kenya allocates. I think 20 something percent 24 25 percent of its budget in education
• 53:23
  Right, so you would expect the teachers to sort of have a good earning there, right
• 53:28
  Thailand only allocates about 12 percent 12 to 12 to 14 percent of its national budget on education, right
• 53:37
  But if you look at a teacher a teacher in Thailand in a public school is earning less than a teacher in a public school in Kenya
• 53:45
  Okay, but when you look at a societal level of respect
• 53:50
  That is a
• 53:52
  That is a that a teacher would get in Kenya
• 53:56
  You cannot compare to the level that you get in Thailand the parks in society is slightly higher
• 54:02
  You mentioned your teacher and people pay attention to you here
• 54:07
  Do you think that that helped with your identifying as a teacher?
• 54:11
  Did you get a boost by being in an environment? Yes
• 54:15
  Yes, you know if if is anything I I never ever mentioned when I was younger was that I would become a teacher
• 54:21
  Oh really? I know
• 54:24
  What did you want to be? I wanted to be a journalist
• 54:28
  Okay, yes actually no, let's take this back as a young kid young young kid. I wanted to be a pilot
• 54:36
  My parents wanted me to be a pilot. You know how it is but that's impressive because normally it's
• 54:41
  Doctor teacher lawyer so pilot is yeah, and then the higher you go then all of a sudden you're supposed to be a doctor and then
• 54:48
  And then to make you an engineer, but pilots pretty cool
• 54:52
  Yeah, it was pretty cool. I didn't even know what a pilot was. I don't even know a single pilot my whole life
• 55:01
  It's just one of those things that when you're younger you say I want to be a doctor and you go
• 55:04
  But do you know any doctor in real life? And you go I don't know Dr. Seuss. I don't know
• 55:11
  So yeah, and then as I got older
• 55:15
  I distinctly remember
• 55:18
  In my teenage years I was a big I became passionate about languages and I became passionate about arts and
• 55:26
  Creativity and performing arts and I thought you know what I really want to be a journalist
• 55:33
  What I want to do something to do with communication
• 55:36
  Yeah, and that's what I hoped to do in university and then you went on to do what a universe education
• 55:43
  Yeah
• 55:46
  Now in Kenya
• 55:48
  The education system is weird right so
• 55:51
  So it's not about
• 55:53
  Your profession is determined by what you score and not necessarily what you want okay
• 55:58
  So then you go to university and because the universities at that time we didn't have as many universities
• 56:04
  We only had like five men public universities right five or six. I'm not sure
• 56:09
  God
• 56:11
  When I say at that time it makes me feel like I'm older
• 56:15
  Which I am however
• 56:17
  So at that time
• 56:19
  At that time
• 56:21
  The universities in Kenya they
• 56:23
  The because they didn't have as many and there was a huge number of students that graduate from high school
• 56:29
  They have to put certain caps right so if you want to be an architect for example
• 56:34
  Then then you have to score like six a's in your high school
• 56:37
  If you want to be a doctor then it's going to be a straight seven a's you know and things like that
• 56:43
  now
• 56:44
  Even that was not a guarantee because there wasn't a lot of universities that were offering
• 56:49
  You know say that that that degree that somebody wanted to to pursue
• 56:55
  so
• 56:57
  So for my case for example, I wanted to study communications and that was my first choice right so my first choice was communications
• 57:04
  At that time it was only offered in one university called Moe University
• 57:08
  I think Moe and I don't think there was any other university I was offering that
• 57:13
  So the other option was for me to go to the Kenya Institute of Communications and so on
• 57:18
  Which was a little bit of a downgrade okay because you have to go to university. What are you talking about?
• 57:26
  Yeah, so
• 57:28
  my next option was education and I
• 57:32
  Was opted for something that was sort of related to communications. Okay, so I went for education in
• 57:38
  Language and literature and English and then how do you get from Bangkok to Puket?
• 57:47
  So Bangkok to Puket apply for a job
• 57:50
  applied for a job at a school here
• 57:53
  that
• 57:55
  offered me a position
• 57:57
  And then I didn't I didn't take the position because I didn't feel like it was the right time at the time
• 58:05
  And so I continued with my school in Bangkok because they offered me better parks
• 58:10
  And is that because they knew you were looking elsewhere or that was just the trajectory of your career
• 58:15
  You know, I'm not sure. Maybe it was for you. No, maybe there was some sort of communication that they did
• 58:20
  I don't know to this day. Maybe they do
• 58:22
  um
• 58:24
  Yeah, and believe you believe believe me not a year immediately a year after
• 58:31
  the same school in Puket emails and says
• 58:37
  We we we had had communication last year
• 58:41
  Would you be still interested in this position? Let's have a discussion
• 58:46
  And what was different about it a year later that made you say yes
• 58:50
  Nothing much. I just thought this I mean how many times would this happen?
• 58:55
  You know how many times would this happen? So I did
• 58:58
  I took it and my life changed
• 59:01
  How did your life change my life changed because Puket offered a different environment
• 59:07
  Puket is very
• 59:09
  Easy
• 59:10
  It's easy to live in Puket as compared to well. It's easy. There's certain certain give-and-takes, right? Puket has a lot of space
• 59:17
  It's safe. It's it's
• 59:20
  calm
• 59:22
  It's more
• 59:25
  natural, okay
• 59:27
  And I think that's what I needed and the community that I formed in Puket for example
• 59:33
  Was a eye opener for me and I'll give you an example one day. I was sat in a bar
• 59:38
  I was having a drink after school, which is a lot of teachers do that right bad habit. So I was having a
• 59:45
  I was having a drink at a bar and one gentleman called Billy
• 59:50
  Comes to me and says I know you're kidding all right you guys run
• 59:55
  Poor stereotype you guys run
• 59:57
  Would you be interested to come and play football with us? Okay, I've never played football right
• 1:00:03
  I said I like I can chuckle a bowl like but I've never played in a team right
• 1:00:08
  And he said no, I don't worry. It's something casual just just show up this time this this time this school
• 1:00:14
  And let's play football. I'm still stuck on the fact that he associated long distance running with good football player
• 1:00:20
  Because I wouldn't have necessarily even connected those two
• 1:00:24
  I want to say that maybe he saw something in me or he was just desperate for a team member
• 1:00:32
  And so I did I went and joined them the next day
• 1:00:36
  And I was in my beach shorts and my sandals and my singlet
• 1:00:40
  Sometime thing he's saying sing whatever it is you see those things
• 1:00:45
  And I show up
• 1:00:47
  April everybody was wearing a kit with their name on the back number they had shin pads on you know those things
• 1:00:54
  What was the real deal? I was there in my sandals and socks and
• 1:01:00
  I probably had a beer in my hand
• 1:01:03
  And I show up I don't even have I thought it was coming to play barefoot because that's what we do back home
• 1:01:08
  Right he said casual
• 1:01:10
  What was I supposed to do
• 1:01:12
  Hey Billy you said casual. What is your problem?
• 1:01:15
  And and I nearly turned back and he called me as a gentleman called Josh
• 1:01:21
  We're from Turkey who offered me his boots and socks and shin pads and shorts
• 1:01:30
  I think I can't remember who offered me his shirt when he was so baggy it reached my knees right
• 1:01:35
  And I played in that I was so tired. Were you good? No, oh no
• 1:01:42
  I thought you were going to tell me you had some natural talent. I did score two goals, okay?
• 1:01:46
  Maybe by luck and they thought
• 1:01:51
  They thought it was good, right? I was too tired. I mean two goals
• 1:01:58
  You don't need to be good to score a goal in football now that I know what I know
• 1:02:02
  You just need to be the right position and tap the ball in whatever it is. Yeah, but
• 1:02:08
  That seed that he planted in me
• 1:02:10
  So a very different part of me
• 1:02:14
  I started playing football. I joined a football team to this day. I play football
• 1:02:19
  And it changes so much about your life it teaches you so much that schooling would never teach you
• 1:02:25
  Are we seeing from the perspective of sport?
• 1:02:28
  Not necessarily from perspective of sport. What was it that changed?
• 1:02:32
  Everything right now. I understand that anything I do. I'm a part of a team. Okay, right
• 1:02:39
  So in football for example, if you look at statistics of football a football player has the ball in 90 minutes
• 1:02:45
  A football player has the ball less than three three to four minutes
• 1:02:49
  In a whole 90 minutes. Okay, so you're spending your time running after the ball or chasing
• 1:02:54
  It sounds boring. It's fun football is fun
• 1:02:56
  Um
• 1:02:58
  So so so what I learned is that little time that you have to do that one right thing
• 1:03:05
  There 11 people out there who are relying on you
• 1:03:08
  But I also learned that if April makes a mistake and she's on my team
• 1:03:13
  It is my responsibility to either make it right or create an environment for how to make it right next time
• 1:03:22
  Yeah, right and that is essentially
• 1:03:25
  The skill that every team player needs to learn in any work environment, right
• 1:03:30
  Yeah, so I wish I started playing football earlier. I probably would be playing professional football now
• 1:03:34
  But slow your roll babes. You only had two goals the first time
• 1:03:39
  Probably the only goals I've ever scored
• 1:03:43
  And I played football for almost 12 years. Oh gosh
• 1:03:46
  But you say that coming to the cat is what you needed
• 1:03:50
  And I want to understand that need a little bit more
• 1:03:53
  I needed professional growth. Okay, I needed I needed
• 1:03:58
  To start afresh
• 1:04:00
  Because in Bangkok, of course
• 1:04:02
  My life was fast-paced
• 1:04:04
  I needed to come back and just withdraw. I needed to be bored. Okay. I needed to be bored to go and sit in that
• 1:04:10
  Buy and have a drink bad habit
• 1:04:13
  And then somebody to come and spark and plant that seed in me to discover something different
• 1:04:19
  How do you think that your future would have been different if you had stayed in that more fast-paced
• 1:04:24
  Environment in Bangkok? I probably think I think I would have left left Thailand. I think I would have left Thailand. I would have probably gone
• 1:04:33
  Somewhere else maybe Dubai or somewhere else because I was already thinking about it
• 1:04:37
  Your soul was already searching
• 1:04:39
  Yeah, I already said that this wasn't the kind of life I wanted. Okay. Yeah. I was ready to leave
• 1:04:46
  I was going to go to Berlin as well or something. I don't know
• 1:04:50
  So you get to bouquet. It's a bit slower and it's giving you more of that nature that you need
• 1:04:55
  Is there anything else about bouquet that you think is very different for someone who is considering destinations
• 1:05:01
  Not necessarily from your your own experience
• 1:05:03
  But if you are speaking to someone and explaining the differences between Bangkok and bouquet
• 1:05:08
  Other than nature and pace. Is there anything else that sets them apart?
• 1:05:12
  Can I
• 1:05:15
  Can I mention the idea of so for example if you look at the economics of bouquettes, right?
• 1:05:20
  Housing is very cheap here compared to Bangkok. So the house I live in
• 1:05:25
  You know
• 1:05:26
  Three bedroom house probably $800 fully fully furnished. Okay, right?
• 1:05:32
  Beautiful neighborhood giant yard about honey nearly 200 and something meter squared. Okay, that's huge. Yeah
• 1:05:40
  Meter squared. Yes, that's huge
• 1:05:42
  You wouldn't get that in Bangkok, right? Maybe in the outskirts of Bangkok
• 1:05:47
  But to get it fully furnished with the giant western kitchen probably not
• 1:05:52
  Right and my wife loves cooking and and we're very passionate about
• 1:05:58
  Houses when we move into a house. We first thing first station is to kitchen. Okay. What does it look like house spacious?
• 1:06:05
  What I do really yeah 100% I mean my career has been food right restaurants food for me if I travel
• 1:06:12
  It's always about the food and likewise when I look for somewhere to live the first picture
• 1:06:16
  I want to see is the kitchen so like when I was looking for a place to live in New York after finishing university
• 1:06:22
  New Yorkers don't cook right and so you'd have lovely apartment buildings with all the amenities the gyms the pools
• 1:06:29
  Everything and then there's look who chop chop kitchen because it wasn't anyone's priority and I love an island
• 1:06:35
  I like when I go to the kitchen. There's an island. I need like everything
• 1:06:40
  Set out so I need surface space the kitchen for me is the most important room in any house
• 1:06:45
  Yeah, my father told me that once really said if you really want to know who your true friends are
• 1:06:51
  Sorry, if you really want to know the true character of your friend
• 1:06:54
  Go into their kitchen. Oh, they're toilet
• 1:06:58
  Yeah, yeah
• 1:07:00
  Ha ha ha ha ha ha
• 1:07:02
  Which again as you say toilets that's one thing that I think I would struggle with in Thailand really yeah
• 1:07:08
  I don't understand the not flushing anything like I understand it from a pipe work perspective
• 1:07:14
  Everywhere you go and you see the sign not to put the toilet paper. Yes when you wipe your ass
• 1:07:20
  Putting it in a bin
• 1:07:22
  And the fact that you don't know how long the bin is gonna sit there
• 1:07:27
  Fuse deeply on hygienic like deeply
• 1:07:31
  And you know when I was traveling with the girls the first time we came to Thailand
• 1:07:35
  I don't know why you laughing at me. This is a serious concern
• 1:07:37
  It's funny. Yeah, but it keeps going and then therefore
• 1:07:41
  So a dinner can be four to six trips to the toilet and I'm not exaggerating
• 1:07:46
  That's right. Yeah, and it's like each time I had to start packing toilet paper in my bag
• 1:07:50
  I had to bring hand sanitizer and you know for me
• 1:07:53
  I don't need to use the toilet in public. I can wait for the whole day
• 1:07:57
  And each time I hate to overuse the word anxiety
• 1:08:01
  But I don't think there's any other way to describe it because every time they're like oh mom we need to use the toilet
• 1:08:05
  And I'm trying to encourage them of course if you need to use the toilet
• 1:08:09
  Use the toilet but deep down
• 1:08:11
  Babes I want to tell you that each time they ask you about through my I'm just thinking
• 1:08:16
  Really?
• 1:08:16
  Do we really have to go because it's horrific
• 1:08:20
  There's never any toilet paper
• 1:08:22
  There's like it's just a very cultural like it's very culturally different
• 1:08:27
  What is that?
• 1:08:29
  The rules
• 1:08:32
  Again, I'm the problem. I'm just saying that it's a challenge. I think that's probably my more challenging thing
• 1:08:38
  It is a challenge. I think it grows in you. I think your dad would also agree with me
• 1:08:44
  I feel like no
• 1:08:46
  He wouldn't? No
• 1:08:48
  Okay, so it would grow in you so
• 1:08:53
  My sisters and I we built a house for a dad
• 1:08:57
  And because I'd seen the Thai toilets and how it was interesting and I thought it was effective
• 1:09:04
  I decided I was going to put a house in the toilet in every bathroom that was in there
• 1:09:09
  And so we did
• 1:09:12
  Now the which is a whole different story so my father embraced it and he thought he was interesting
• 1:09:16
  And I explained to him you know like hey dad look this is a plate of food
• 1:09:20
  I'm going to put food in hand and I'll take tissue paper and then I'll use toilet paper and I'll give it to you
• 1:09:25
  And I'll say can you put your soup in there and he was like no, but if I hose it down then yes now you can eat it
• 1:09:31
  But anyway, so he accepted that right he was like okay, okay, that's a good idea
• 1:09:37
  But yeah
• 1:09:39
  But the the the technician that the plumber who was building the main bathroom
• 1:09:46
  He put the hose right in front of you
• 1:09:50
  Beyond reach beyond reach so if you're sat in the toilet and you need to go
• 1:09:56
  You have to first of all travel to the other end of the bathroom try and pull it
• 1:10:01
  But of course you can't reach right? It's a short one. So so the hose there
• 1:10:08
  So the hose there in that bathroom has never been used can probably use it to squirt mosquitoes and stuff
• 1:10:13
  Right
• 1:10:14
  Yeah, but but I think it grows in you
• 1:10:17
  The idea of the hose and ties generally I mean
• 1:10:21
  I've been to a lot of public toilets in Thailand. They comparatively cleaner than many public toilets have been to
• 1:10:29
  Really? Yeah
• 1:10:31
  Clearly I'm going to the wrong toilets. I think so
• 1:10:33
  But that's fine you found the house of your dreams
• 1:10:36
  You pay around $800 that's right and in Bangkok it would be a lot more expensive
• 1:10:41
  And Bangkok it it easily be
• 1:10:43
  2000 maybe maybe more okay for that big house. Do you think that Puket is a better place for raising families?
• 1:10:52
  Yes, I know okay. Yes, I know. I think I think when kids are younger, there are so many opportunities for kids to do
• 1:11:00
  But as they get the younger kids, they have so many activities. They have is this in Bangkok in Puket. Okay
• 1:11:07
  There's so many activities for kids to do. There's the beach of course, which is the easiest activity for anybody is the
• 1:11:15
  the freest
• 1:11:17
  I wouldn't call it daycare, but if you're just
• 1:11:20
  Open natural money that you can ever have, right?
• 1:11:24
  And then there are other companies maybe or people that do activities for children is football is
• 1:11:31
  drama and so on and so forth. However
• 1:11:34
  The older they get, I think their activities and opportunities
• 1:11:38
  narrow down okay, and they become less and less
• 1:11:41
  particularly in the teenage years
• 1:11:44
  You don't find as many I mean if you're a boy
• 1:11:48
  Unless you're a swimmer or
• 1:11:51
  take part in a sport
• 1:11:53
  Yeah, what are you doing really, you know
• 1:11:57
  Not much, you know
• 1:11:59
  Unless you're a gamer, but then I don't see as many
• 1:12:03
  gaming
• 1:12:05
  I wouldn't call them opportunities. They do have them opportunities, but they're all separate
• 1:12:09
  They're not more of a social thing okay, and if you're a lady, what are you doing unless you're taking part in a sport or
• 1:12:16
  maybe drama
• 1:12:19
  I cannot imagine anything else that
• 1:12:21
  But young teenage just one daughter who's 12 getting into this teenage period of her life. Is that something you're concerned about?
• 1:12:28
  Yes, okay, so she plays football okay, her name is Zawadi, which means gift
• 1:12:34
  She plays football both of them play football both of them swim
• 1:12:38
  Okay, yeah, and they take part in all smaller activities as well, but those are their two main activities
• 1:12:43
  You're hoping that the sport will continue to anchor them
• 1:12:46
  Yes, as they get older. Yes. Yes. Have you thought about what schooling is gonna look like as they get older?
• 1:12:51
  Will they stay here or am I going too far?
• 1:12:54
  You know originally our plan was to
• 1:12:57
  relocate back to Africa when the girls were probably in their teenage years. Okay. We'll see. Okay. We'll see
• 1:13:04
  Yeah
• 1:13:05
  And would we go in back to Tanzania? Chances are
• 1:13:09
  What what are the question marks in this part of the plan?
• 1:13:13
  I think it would depend. Do we have an opportunity to go and live and work there?
• 1:13:19
  Yes, I'll give you an example. For example now
• 1:13:23
  But wife and I have both teachers one of the perks that we get is we get
• 1:13:27
  Education for children subsidized, right? So it's nearly free tuition
• 1:13:32
  So then they have that opportunity to school and and we get that free tuition
• 1:13:37
  And of course we pay some money here. There's nothing that's totally free
• 1:13:41
  Um
• 1:13:42
  And if we have an opportunity like that
• 1:13:44
  Let's go. Okay. Was your wife already into teaching before the dance floor? That's right
• 1:13:50
  Very cool. What does she teach? She teaches special education. So learning support. Okay. Yeah
• 1:13:56
  And I know you said one of the things that you would surprise yourself
• 1:14:01
  Your younger self is that one you're a teacher, but you've explained that part to me
• 1:14:05
  And the other thing that you said that you'd be surprised that the adult you was in a mixed relationship. Yes
• 1:14:11
  Can you talk me through how this happens?
• 1:14:15
  Just any sort of struggle with identity
• 1:14:19
  You know April
• 1:14:21
  Teenage me if I looked
• 1:14:25
  Forward in my life if I looked into the future I was going to end up with an African woman with a giant bottom
• 1:14:34
  Bottom coming from here to there like
• 1:14:37
  Because
• 1:14:39
  Because that's what I
• 1:14:41
  Envisioned. That's what I grew up with. That's what I wanted right. That's what I saw an African woman
• 1:14:46
  Spoken the thickest accent ever, you know, we'd have kids with the biggest lips and you know things like that
• 1:14:53
  Um, but life changes you
• 1:14:56
  Life changes you you explore the world you
• 1:15:01
  Your environment shapes you you start seeing things in other people that you'd otherwise
• 1:15:06
  Would never have seen if you left remember I said if the child who's never left home thinks that their mom is the best cook
• 1:15:13
  And then and then and then the dance floor happens and things happen
• 1:15:19
  Yeah
• 1:15:20
  When you met your wife
• 1:15:22
  Talked me about the discussions at home with your family about you meeting and presuming you dated for a while before she became your wife
• 1:15:32
  Was that an awkward discussion at all or was it open arms?
• 1:15:35
  Not so much not so much of an awkward discussion because
• 1:15:39
  I think my family and I is sort of have this respect and kind of respect we have is it doesn't matter who you're with you
• 1:15:45
  Do you okay right you do you we
• 1:15:48
  Look my family and I we've gone through so much when we were younger right we went through so much when we were younger that
• 1:15:55
  By the time we go older
• 1:15:58
  Just just let's just be happy. Let's just be at this focus on being happy when you say you went through so much
• 1:16:04
  Is that amongst your siblings or just your entire family then the entire family so so we we grew up poor
• 1:16:10
  Okay, not very poor
• 1:16:12
  But poor enough
• 1:16:13
  So poor that you'd go to bed hungry and
• 1:16:16
  Expect not to have breakfast the next day so that that's extremely poor
• 1:16:21
  We had a lot of facilities around us and fortunately that doesn't relate to what you get in house, right?
• 1:16:28
  So
• 1:16:29
  So yeah, and then and it we came to a point where we lost our mom and our mom was a big backbone in our family
• 1:16:37
  I was 14 okay
• 1:16:39
  14 14
• 1:16:42
  Turning 15 so I was in 15 years 14 exactly so yeah, so our 14 just joining secondary school my older sister is just finished high school
• 1:16:53
  And my other sister is 15
• 1:16:56
  So then is that struggle you know
• 1:16:59
  Uh, and this is why you say that your sister's raised you yes, so my sister Susan and Demar my sister Susan for example
• 1:17:06
  She had to sacrifice her education
• 1:17:08
  Relationships, you know, she couldn't get into our relationship until we were settled
• 1:17:13
  Yeah, yeah, grandma
• 1:17:16
  Yeah, she couldn't she she it just was the way it was right and my dad was not in a position where he would
• 1:17:22
  Take care of five of us
• 1:17:25
  And it wasn't until you know
• 1:17:28
  Six years later that my father decided to marry another woman again who now became a mom, right?
• 1:17:35
  But by that time we were older we were all sorted my sister Susan was
• 1:17:40
  All sort of was ready to explore her own life, but yeah, but they paid my sister Susan paid my school fees for a good deal of time
• 1:17:49
  Yeah, at a very young age
• 1:17:52
  Yeah, 2021 paying fees for people
• 1:17:56
  It's it's a tall order
• 1:17:58
  It's funny because you say these things and I think of the challenges that we have now
• 1:18:03
  And somehow they seem so trivial you know to be that young yeah, and to have to fill in and step up
• 1:18:10
  And fill spaces where your mother that I can clearly see everybody loves right
• 1:18:16
  And you have to sacrifice so much of yourself when you yourself are a child
• 1:18:20
  And not abandon those people she could have easily said you know what
• 1:18:23
  You guys you do you you have your dad
• 1:18:26
  I'm over edge. I can go and start my own life in another city or another house
• 1:18:31
  Yeah, she stuck
• 1:18:34
  Raised us and got us food and made sure we fed
• 1:18:38
  We fought we fought we laughed and and we emerged
• 1:18:43
  Yeah, we love each other like right now the kind of discussions we have I
• 1:18:50
  Yeah, we know where we know how far we've come
• 1:18:52
  Yeah, so yeah, so when we when it comes to having that conversation with our family it wasn't
• 1:18:58
  By that point no, but that point we've talked about everything that it doesn't matter
• 1:19:03
  Do you think that you can have
• 1:19:05
  The bond that you describe with your near-family know without the struggle the reason I ask this is my dad is my favorite person
• 1:19:14
  Right in the whole world my favorite person
• 1:19:17
  And majority of the time everything's been amazing. I'm the favorite. It's all good
• 1:19:21
  However, we have had to go through some some deep lows together and
• 1:19:28
  I feel like because we have been through those deep lows
• 1:19:33
  We're able to talk about anything now because there's just no going back to that bad
• 1:19:38
  And I'm not sure if our relationship would be as tight
• 1:19:44
  Had we not and when I say low that all mean or I'm not talking to you for like no
• 1:19:48
  I mean like no speaking for nine months
• 1:19:51
  No communication, right? I mean
• 1:19:53
  You know me ending up in hospital for suicide attempt based on things that he has said to like some serious things
• 1:20:00
  But I look back now and I don't think we would be able to be
• 1:20:05
  Authentically close and the reason I say authentically is because a lot of people say they're close to their family
• 1:20:10
  And I'm like, are you really though because your behavior doesn't say it
• 1:20:14
  And I think we sometimes presume because of the title of our roles whether that's father, son, brother
• 1:20:22
  We presume that there must be a closeness
• 1:20:24
  We're actually we're all individuals, right? Yes, my dad is my dad, but he's also his own person
• 1:20:30
  And I'm not sure that our relationship would be as it is now
• 1:20:35
  Actually, I know it wouldn't it wouldn't be as close had it not gone to those laws
• 1:20:40
  I mean, I liken it to soup, right? Okay, I think about it if the soup is so plain
• 1:20:46
  Why would you remember it? Think about the spiciest soup you've ever had
• 1:20:51
  That's the one you remember so yeah, the heart and spicy and I it's got everything
• 1:20:57
  As the one that will always stick to your head if you're just given soup chicken insult
• 1:21:04
  It's just super chicken insult so you have a lot of depth to your family soup. I want to say so
• 1:21:10
  I want to say so and a depth I think mostly comes because of the experiences we've had
• 1:21:16
  And the ones that we currently go in through as well, right? Yeah
• 1:21:20
  You meet your wife. Yes, she's American from Kansas. Do you know anything about Kansas at this point? Very little
• 1:21:28
  I mean, would you know? I don't know anyone in the usual stereotype unfortunately
• 1:21:33
  Cancer stereotypes
• 1:21:35
  Wizard of Oz. Oh, is that Kansas? I know nothing about Kansas. Yeah, but yeah
• 1:21:39
  Okay, and I try and did my best not to mention it and I did not I
• 1:21:44
  To this day
• 1:21:47
  So people don't don't know a lot about Kansas. It's fair to say man
• 1:21:52
  I think there are lots of people that don't know about Kansas right because
• 1:21:56
  I don't think Kansas is so much out there as New York or
• 1:22:00
  Right Los Angeles Texas, you know
• 1:22:03
  Kansas they just want to live their life right they just want to go at their own pace. They just chill
• 1:22:11
  Yeah, so yeah, I met I met her and
• 1:22:14
  Are you both looking for partners at this point or are we
• 1:22:17
  Just enjoying I wasn't sure at the time. I wasn't sure and in fact there was a time I nearly left Thailand
• 1:22:26
  Sorry, not and not a nearly left bouquet to go to another place because of a job opportunity
• 1:22:33
  And I just and this was after you guys have met. Mm-hmm after we had met and we had agreed that we were
• 1:22:39
  Going to be together. We hadn't agreed, but we would sort of together
• 1:22:42
  There's that union that you've you know the one that if you don't receive a text for after two hours
• 1:22:48
  You start wondering if they left you sure yeah
• 1:22:50
  Yeah
• 1:22:53
  Yeah, so so at the time I think I was looking for something more stable
• 1:22:58
  But you know, you're not very sure because you're young
• 1:23:01
  And and you're not ready to settle. I was I was a young 29 28 right so you're not very sure like what am I looking for
• 1:23:09
  I haven't built properly my career yet
• 1:23:13
  But deep down there's something in the back of your head that tells you this is the right person
• 1:23:17
  This is the right person
• 1:23:20
  Yeah, and they ended up being yeah
• 1:23:23
  Yeah, when you guys choose to have kids do you at this stage think should I stay in Thailand?
• 1:23:31
  The reason I ask is because when I was pregnant
• 1:23:34
  Even just from a mortality rate right so you read that black women in the UK are
• 1:23:39
  Four times more likely to die during childbirth than their white counterparts and immediately my father's like
• 1:23:46
  Bops should we go to Jamaica should you have to pick in Jamaica
• 1:23:51
  Immediately and
• 1:23:54
  And I'm like no, you know, I understand what is happening and
• 1:23:58
  Honestly gets on a flip
• 1:24:01
  But I was confident that there you know statistics I love a statistic
• 1:24:06
  But there's often a lot of story behind a statistic and I was confident that
• 1:24:12
  Should there be any issues during my pregnancy?
• 1:24:14
  I would be able to advocate for myself and that's all one other story
• 1:24:16
  But my point is is that from the day I had birth
• 1:24:20
  I knew that I did not want to raise my children in London like I knew I knew that I wanted to give them the opportunities and more
• 1:24:29
  Than the more I had and I grew up very privileged, you know in Jamaica thinking I could do be anything
• 1:24:34
  And I felt that Jamaica had a lot to account for of course my dad too
• 1:24:40
  But being in an environment like Jamaica I think really helps set me up to to be able to have the confidence to take on challenges
• 1:24:48
  And so I don't mind when we talk about like success and chasing timelines
• 1:24:54
  The timeline for me is only in reference to my children and where they're going to be at certain ages
• 1:25:01
  Long gone are the days where I thought I have to be a millionaire by this age, you know when you're younger
• 1:25:04
  You're like oh, I have to do this by this age that kind of dissipated because with life experiences
• 1:25:08
  We know that it doesn't work that way
• 1:25:11
  But the clock started ticking for me on when are we going to get back home which for me has always been Jamaica
• 1:25:17
  And so I'm just wondering you and your wife you're about to have your first child
• 1:25:22
  What are you thinking in terms of where your family is going to be?
• 1:25:26
  I'll be honest with you. I didn't really
• 1:25:29
  I didn't first of all I think I think your kids are very lucky
• 1:25:32
  I think I think your kids are very lucky and they're very privileged
• 1:25:36
  To have somebody who's seeing that futuristic
• 1:25:39
  To have to have such a future and a definite plan for them. I think I think that is
• 1:25:45
  I think that's commendable
• 1:25:47
  Um, and I wish I had that you know
• 1:25:51
  I only wish I had that for for younger ones, but but we're here now
• 1:25:56
  So but answer your question. We didn't really
• 1:26:00
  Discuss it. We did not discuss it. We just I think we were just stuck on the moment that we were having
• 1:26:06
  And a baby we first we were just excited. We were married, you know, we just this is happening, you know
• 1:26:13
  and then
• 1:26:14
  Immediately after there was baby and then
• 1:26:18
  And then that's life now begin to happen. How long after you got married? Did you have a baby very very quickly?
• 1:26:29
  Now that I think about it, I wish we waited a little longer. Okay
• 1:26:33
  Uh, but but but but it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I wish we waited a little longer explored life, traveled
• 1:26:42
  Yeah, but but we we got we got our first born
• 1:26:46
  We were lucky because I mean as you mentioned the statistics from from
• 1:26:51
  Not saying that is it four out of ten? Yeah black women so four times
• 1:26:57
  Yep, four times more likely to die a black woman is four times more likely to die during childbirth in the UK
• 1:27:05
  So we we we were fairly lucky here because we
• 1:27:08
  We understand that the health health system here is fairly reliable. Okay as compared to what it would be in America
• 1:27:15
  And what it would be in Kenya
• 1:27:17
  so the that
• 1:27:19
  That comparison for us was
• 1:27:21
  Was more reason not to even think about moving moving further
• 1:27:25
  Um
• 1:27:26
  But having said that if if I had to do it again, it would be something that we have a discussion about so yeah
• 1:27:33
  And then you're raising your two daughters, and I'm wondering how did fatherhood change you a lot
• 1:27:41
  fatherhood changes you a lot um
• 1:27:45
  I'll give you an example for example when my wife became pregnant
• 1:27:49
  That's when I decided I was going to do
• 1:27:51
  photography
• 1:27:52
  I did photography I do okay, so yes, I do
• 1:27:57
  So
• 1:27:58
  I only have maybe two or three pictures of me as a child. I actually only have one of me as a baby one
• 1:28:06
  I was taken 19
• 1:28:08
  19 I can say that was taking it in 1981 somewhere and I'm
• 1:28:13
  Seven-month-old baby I could barely sit up my mom used to call me big head because I it took me so long to sit up
• 1:28:20
  So
• 1:28:22
  And that is a photo of myself I have
• 1:28:24
  The other really grew into your head because it's just the hat
• 1:28:32
  Then I have another one of me in a giant Afro
• 1:28:37
  And then the next photo I have of me is a young kid of about 11
• 1:28:42
  Okay, there's a gap there
• 1:28:44
  And I remember my wife being pregnant and I'm thinking I got to offer something for my daughter
• 1:28:49
  That is different and I said I'm going to take photos. I'm going to document. They're growing up and
• 1:28:55
  And and try and showcase something different. So then I have something that
• 1:28:59
  That I can say hey, this is this is you when you were younger. I love that
• 1:29:04
  And so I began photography and I'll never look back
• 1:29:08
  So now my phone and my camera is full of my daughter. This is pictures a two-point that it's annoying
• 1:29:15
  At my wife
• 1:29:18
  They all appreciate it later. My sister doesn't like taking pictures of herself
• 1:29:22
  I think most people around me don't really like taking pictures of themselves and when it was my dad's 70th birthday
• 1:29:29
  I decided to plan a surprise birthday for him at one of my restaurants
• 1:29:32
  And it was really inspired by a customer
• 1:29:34
  We had hosted her mother's 75th and I saw this big celebration at the restaurant and I planted that seed
• 1:29:41
  I was like yep
• 1:29:41
  I'm definitely doing something for my dad and my dad doesn't like big birthday celebrations
• 1:29:46
  It's not his thing
• 1:29:47
  And so he thought he was coming to help me because a member of staff had cancelled the last minute
• 1:29:54
  So we stopped at the supermarket to get some decorations for something and I said oh my gosh
• 1:29:58
  We have to get these things. So he's walking in like casual clothes thinking he's going to wash dishes
• 1:30:03
  because it's helping
• 1:30:05
  Helping keep my restaurant alive
• 1:30:08
  And then everyone was there and on the wall of the restaurant
• 1:30:12
  I had like Polaroid
• 1:30:14
  Polaroid size pictures of every family member that I could find from all kinds of like years back
• 1:30:21
  And it's funny because on the one hand so many people like why don't I take pictures
• 1:30:26
  But as soon as all of those pictures were on the wall
• 1:30:29
  Everybody does they go straight to the wall to see and to find themselves and relive those moments
• 1:30:36
  And I think that there is such power in being able to tell stories just through
• 1:30:41
  These single moments that a lot of times we forget right and then you see the photo
• 1:30:46
  Yeah, and it brings it all back. Yeah, so I think that's amazing. Yeah
• 1:30:50
  Now my family especially in Kenya my family and I understand why I didn't take as many photos and I was younger because we didn't have that opportunity
• 1:30:56
  We didn't have photographers back then it was expensive
• 1:31:00
  They used those things called negative. You know the negative way if you take a picture
• 1:31:04
  You got to wait a couple of days and then you can waste your money
• 1:31:07
  Yes, because you process the photo. Yes, and then the photo could be rubbish and now your Sunday best is gone. It's
• 1:31:17
  Yeah, and so my family didn't have those opportunities
• 1:31:22
  But now
• 1:31:25
  I'm very proud that I think the documentation that I have of my daughters growing up
• 1:31:31
  It is is fairly adequate. I think there's a little bit of more bias to who was my older daughter because I was excited
• 1:31:37
  Of having a new one, but the second one
• 1:31:40
  I think she has a fair share
• 1:31:42
  But her photos are better, but the older one has more photos. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense
• 1:31:48
  I mean, I only have two and they came at the same time, so right the number of photos are are pretty even
• 1:31:53
  Those kids are lucky
• 1:31:55
  Lucky I'm gonna say you you sound like somebody who's very passionate about motherhood and you're passionate about what you
• 1:32:04
  Ge offering your children and you're passionate about your your culture and the culture that you're exposing for them
• 1:32:12
  You're lucky kids
• 1:32:14
  I think they are I think they're very lucky that they should be grateful
• 1:32:17
  I've been brainwashing them from from very early every morning, you know aside with their regular affirmations
• 1:32:24
  They always say that they're Jamaican and they finish every evening and they say the same thing
• 1:32:29
  And I think that they don't know it now, but I think later on it will it will help them because the world throws things at us
• 1:32:37
  I went to boarding school in the UK when I was 13
• 1:32:40
  And they painted a huge huge swastika on the wall of the locker room
• 1:32:46
  They did it piece by piece, so they took the lockers away
• 1:32:49
  And then when they were finished they moved all the lockers so that it could sing in its glory
• 1:32:55
  I had teachers tell me to go back to where I come from I had
• 1:33:00
  This this work the Hitler sign
• 1:33:03
  There were about three black kids in the school at the time it was a large school
• 1:33:08
  I was in Bath, so this is about three and a half hours from London
• 1:33:12
  Teachers said yeah to go back to where you come from I've only ever got into one physical altercation in my entire life usually
• 1:33:19
  By the time I'm finished tracing you off with words
• 1:33:22
  Nothing ever happens, but this one time I was playing hockey and
• 1:33:26
  A lady a girl in the class is making ape noises at me
• 1:33:31
  And I took up the hockey stick and a clatter and then I got called to the principal's office to be told
• 1:33:37
  You know violence this that blah blah, but he didn't know
• 1:33:40
  Why I'd hit her with the hockey stick and so obviously after I explained why then it was okay
• 1:33:46
  But my point is is that none of those experiences phased me because we go back to I'm Jamaican
• 1:33:53
  And I don't think that I would have I think I would have absorbed
• 1:33:58
  Their negativity a lot more if I didn't have that identity as my arm. Oh
• 1:34:04
  I agree and so I hope that my kids
• 1:34:07
  Not that they're gonna face the same sort of of challenges, but they'll have challenges of their own
• 1:34:13
  And to me confidence is is the the most important thing especially for young girls not to say that boys don't need confidence
• 1:34:22
  But I think you know when we look at how
• 1:34:24
  You're perceived as when you're a young lady it is different. I don't care what anyone says. It's different
• 1:34:30
  And research has it that the ladies
• 1:34:34
  tend to be more
• 1:34:37
  More careful about how they would react with how people would react to them and also the more aware of their
• 1:34:43
  Identities more more so than men than than than than boys. Yeah, and and to get to your point about what you say about brainwashing
• 1:34:53
  I wouldn't even call it brainwashing. I said you're planting the right seed. Yeah
• 1:34:58
  Plant that right seed quiet, but it's got potential and it's powerful. Right. It is the right seed
• 1:35:05
  We spoke a lot about you said that with your identity or nationality. I should say being Kenyan
• 1:35:12
  That that almost installs some sort of foundational blueprint. Yes for later on. Yes
• 1:35:18
  And I wonder if with your relationship with your wife coming from very different backgrounds different areas
• 1:35:25
  Whether any parts earlier on in your relationship where this was a challenge. Yes
• 1:35:30
  Many many parts and I will I will even take it further and I say you know COVID
• 1:35:36
  You know during that period of COVID where we were indoors
• 1:35:39
  And you have nobody to talk to apart from the person that you live with
• 1:35:43
  There were conversations that we we had we unpacked about our experiences
• 1:35:49
  And we went deeper than
• 1:35:52
  We we had ever had right. I think I think because there was nowhere else to go
• 1:35:56
  You're not running away from this. Let us talk to know and and and so many instances or for example the idea of
• 1:36:04
  The idea of who is superior like all like are these people more superior than the other the idea of racism for example races in America race in America
• 1:36:14
  What what what does it look like race in in in racism or race in Kenya? What does it look like
• 1:36:20
  um
• 1:36:21
  The idea you know in Kenya. We have this habit
• 1:36:24
  I say this jokingly, but it's it's it's I don't know how to feel about it
• 1:36:29
  So when I met my wife every month I would go to Western Union to send money back home
• 1:36:35
  Because you know why right
• 1:36:36
  My dad used to have a money transfer company
• 1:36:39
  And we would send money from the UK predominantly to Jamaica and the Caribbean
• 1:36:44
  And it came from the fact that he has a shipping company
• 1:36:47
  And so for a lot of people that don't know what that means. Yes, you will know you fill these big blue barrels
• 1:36:53
  And you pack them whether it's with dry food things clothing
• 1:36:57
  You know, sometimes you'll send a television not in the barrel, but you said that as well
• 1:37:01
  And that has always been such a crucial part of our culture right the idea that you get the opportunity to go far in with it
• 1:37:09
  Right you get you go far in yes
• 1:37:10
  And you send back and then my dad would see all of the shipping that we would do and as time goes on and technology goes on
• 1:37:17
  You then are now able to send money
• 1:37:19
  So the people can buy the things for themselves
• 1:37:22
  And so it's funny because when it's your culture
• 1:37:25
  It's so normal
• 1:37:27
  Like of course you're going to send money home of course you're sending barrels home
• 1:37:30
  Yes, and it's only when you see other people that aren't sending things
• 1:37:36
  And I remember I went through that habit of every end month
• 1:37:41
  I would go to Western Union and I'm sending money back home and I would send it to my mom or my dad or you know
• 1:37:48
  And my wife once said to me as you always send money back home like when are they going to pay you?
• 1:37:55
  back
• 1:37:57
  When I said this to my sisters they loved you're like just like you right because it's
• 1:38:03
  It's a cultural habit that only I would understand right?
• 1:38:06
  It's they call it a black tax whatever it is. It's a cultural habit. It's not alone, baby
• 1:38:11
  No, it's not it's not alone. That one is gone. That one is good. It's not really gone. That one is is what it is
• 1:38:18
  Um, so those are some discussions that we had to sit down my wife and talk about and say
• 1:38:23
  Listen, there will be times where I will be paying for school fees or a kid I don't know
• 1:38:28
  It's just the way it is
• 1:38:31
  There are people that are look they look up to me back home
• 1:38:35
  So it's not just my daughters that people that look up to me
• 1:38:38
  And yes, there will be tough situations where now my daughters are relying on me and look up to me
• 1:38:44
  But I cannot forget about the baggage. No, I'm sorry not the baggage
• 1:38:48
  I cannot forget about the life that I left back home
• 1:38:51
  Which gave me the foundation for who I am now right the community raised me they brought me up here
• 1:38:58
  It is only right that I also owe them something
• 1:39:01
  Right somehow even if it's a little bit like all them
• 1:39:05
  Yeah, it's funny because
• 1:39:08
  The lens through which we see these things really determines what in fact we see right because I can laugh because I completely understand your wife's perspective
• 1:39:17
  When are they paying you by?
• 1:39:20
  Yes, I did my profit. What is our is there interest?
• 1:39:27
  At the same time
• 1:39:29
  My heart is full to know
• 1:39:32
  That you appreciate that you are who you are
• 1:39:36
  Because of that it might not be the just your sister who helped literally pay for your education
• 1:39:43
  It might be the auntie that cooked a little bit of food one day
• 1:39:46
  And the sense of community in that way
• 1:39:50
  For me is so loving like it's it's it is the essence of like day-to-day life
• 1:39:57
  I say to people
• 1:39:58
  I'm in the stage where I'm like okay, where are we gonna live right where are we gonna settle right now
• 1:40:02
  And I was just in Jamaica for a month and a lady who has worked with my dad
• 1:40:08
  Nearly as long as I've been alive right miss Gloria. She's worked with my dad for years and years
• 1:40:13
  I remember that when I got to the office
• 1:40:15
  I would have to make my dad's coffee and miss Gloria didn't have to make the coffee because my dad was teaching me that sense of responsibility
• 1:40:22
  I then get to drop off my girls to my dad's office and miss Gloria
• 1:40:27
  Completely fall straight in line as though she has known them from birth, right therefore
• 1:40:32
  And every day there's a mango
• 1:40:36
  Like a bag of mangoes for girls
• 1:40:38
  Every day and this is a beautiful thing of not that you are coming from
• 1:40:44
  Like abundance in terms of finances, but everyone will do
• 1:40:49
  their little part
• 1:40:50
  Right they will give they will spoil and I say spoil like this because I love that it's mangoes and not like some sort of contraband
• 1:40:58
  Yeah
• 1:40:59
  And and it's everyone showing right it's everyone showing the sense of community
• 1:41:03
  I was at the security to try get into the building after work
• 1:41:07
  I was and immediately was well, we haven't got the call that you are allowed to come in. Where's your ID?
• 1:41:12
  I was like well, I don't have ID because I don't actually work here
• 1:41:15
  Right, it's my dad's office. Please and she's like well, we have to wait for the call
• 1:41:19
  I said okay no problem two seconds later
• 1:41:21
  What are you coming to do at this time? I said well my daughters are there assigned to you always you have the pretty look a girl
• 1:41:27
  Lemm
• 1:41:28
  I said yes it's oh come true come true
• 1:41:31
  I was like two seconds ago. This was tough not security and you couldn't let me through and the minute you knew
• 1:41:38
  It was for my girls you lit up you're telling me how they're cute and all of these things and immediately it was like okay
• 1:41:45
  And to me that sense of
• 1:41:48
  Is what I probably miss the most yes, right? Yes, and it goes back to what we we we spoke
• 1:41:54
  to earlier about how
• 1:41:56
  I think our communities of our culture backgrounds we see kids as keys to the culture like they open
• 1:42:04
  Conversations for us they open opportunities for us even right they they
• 1:42:09
  people see them as actual
• 1:42:13
  Growing moments for people right
• 1:42:17
  kids pregnant women older people right and and I think that's beautiful
• 1:42:22
  I think that's beautiful has your experience in Thailand been any different because you're a black man
• 1:42:31
  When you when you say different
• 1:42:35
  What extremes are we talking about positive difference negative difference and it loads really can I tell you my first ever experience of
• 1:42:44
  For example a negative negative experience
• 1:42:47
  So a negative experience one time. I'm going to the embassy
• 1:42:50
  Because I'm being the right person. I'm being I'm doing the right thing which
• 1:42:55
  If you're living in a land and then you register with you once the Kenyan embassy, so I'm headed to the Kenyan embassy and Bangkok
• 1:43:02
  So it's all over so you five which is where it was before
• 1:43:07
  And I get off the train. I'm walking. I have my backpack in my bag
• 1:43:12
  It's coming from work. So I had my laptop and everything
• 1:43:16
  I'm headed to the embassy because I asked for time off
• 1:43:18
  So I'm looking neat. I think right. I'm coming from why I'm a teacher what they talk
• 1:43:24
  Um, and I'm walking towards quite a walk. It's about five to seven minutes walk five to ten minutes walk
• 1:43:29
  Let's see as I
• 1:43:32
  Start my journey towards the
• 1:43:35
  The street where the the embassy situated
• 1:43:41
  Two cops get off their bike
• 1:43:43
  Motorbike
• 1:43:44
  The Bangkok brown cops and they stop me they go hey
• 1:43:48
  Where you from show me your passport of course I had my passport get it off
• 1:43:52
  And they look at it
• 1:43:54
  And they look at it and then they say where you going and I say I'm headed to the embassy just right here
• 1:43:59
  Do you know they stripped me
• 1:44:01
  Everything searched everything I had checked my pockets open my bag
• 1:44:07
  Dropped all my you know my laptop that was there so a crowd is already forming there
• 1:44:12
  They're expecting something magical to appear from my bag, right like
• 1:44:16
  Eee they got him
• 1:44:18
  And it was a you know had books at
• 1:44:21
  Books man. They show them a teacher
• 1:44:23
  Um, I had my laptop. They opened it
• 1:44:26
  Of course they found nothing they found like usb's dick. I had an iPod. I don't know if you know what an ipod yes
• 1:44:34
  I am not always yes, I'm an iPod actually it was an MP3 bloody. I couldn't afford an ipod back then
• 1:44:40
  And and then they just left then they just got on a bike and they left
• 1:44:44
  With your belongings everywhere. Yeah, and you know at that time you're shocked right
• 1:44:48
  They never experienced something like this everybody's been nice around you and then all of a sudden these cops come in and they
• 1:44:55
  Check Monday searched me if they were looking for anything they were if it was somewhere where the sun doesn't come
• 1:45:00
  They would have found it and then they just got on a bike and they left
• 1:45:05
  So I'll get to the embassy
• 1:45:08
  At that time lovely gentleman. I think I forget the name
• 1:45:12
  Not one more to but one more to a second lovely gentleman. I told him my experiences said. I'm really sorry
• 1:45:17
  But yeah, welcome to Thailand. Just know that things like these will happen again
• 1:45:22
  And and I go why and it goes yeah, but there's been
• 1:45:26
  You know some negative experiences with some people of African origin
• 1:45:31
  With substances that they're bringing and and I said okay, but you know
• 1:45:36
  Use it intelligence. I was just trying to be
• 1:45:39
  logical, but you know, there's sometimes with with authorities logic goes out the door right
• 1:45:46
  April I finished registering at the embassy
• 1:45:50
  I'm walking back to the train
• 1:45:52
  Not again boss
• 1:45:57
  Part two yes literally
• 1:46:01
  Different cops, but the same process left my laptop down there
• 1:46:09
  Wow, I got in the train I cried
• 1:46:13
  You know people are crying
• 1:46:15
  What is wrong with this what are you doing and you know I just got in the train and got back home
• 1:46:22
  Of course by that time it was time to go home
• 1:46:25
  Home people in the village happy to see me and and then I just lived
• 1:46:30
  Some people like to say because what you've described makes me think of the stop and search policy
• 1:46:36
  That happens sometimes in the UK and I always hear people on the radio saying oh, but if you have nothing to hide
• 1:46:43
  What's the problem with stop and search and I wonder what you would say to someone who says well?
• 1:46:49
  You know the police were searching you they stopped me now
• 1:46:52
  They stopped me now they stopped me in the car and then and they will search me and I always say them
• 1:46:57
  I want to see you stop a white man as well
• 1:47:00
  I say in Thai very eloquently
• 1:47:03
  I'd like to see you stop a white person as well
• 1:47:08
  Yeah, it's I used to feel so angry about it, right? I used to be at you to that day. I went back to the channel
• 1:47:15
  I'm going to pay them again
• 1:47:18
  And and then at the end of the day you realized
• 1:47:22
  They just misinformed
• 1:47:24
  They're just miseducated right and maybe they're going through something that
• 1:47:29
  You know, maybe made their experience want to do that or they're just responding to
• 1:47:36
  You know orders from something. So it's not
• 1:47:40
  Or they're just frustrated with their work. It's not it's not what they are probably
• 1:47:45
  That would make me want to leave
• 1:47:48
  I know if I if someone stopped and searched me I remember I was at Penn station in New York and
• 1:47:55
  Police officers asked to search my backpack and I was at college at the time. I said you're not searching my backpack
• 1:48:02
  I said I'm gonna call my lawyer. You don't have the right to search my backpack and immediately because of the way I speak
• 1:48:08
  I'm not African-American and
• 1:48:10
  And the energy completely changed right. I'm still probably a little bit too cocky for the likes of an American police officer
• 1:48:17
  But I also have like the undercurrent of charm
• 1:48:20
  So I tend to get away with certain things and and the point is no one searched my bag and I went off on my merry way
• 1:48:27
  However, if I had had that experience of someone searching me and also just treating me a particular way
• 1:48:34
  That would be my cue to exit stage left especially because
• 1:48:39
  I've grown up in a black country
• 1:48:41
  Yeah, and I think that that's like the biggest difference
• 1:48:43
  Um a lot of my family they've grown up in the UK and so even though you can have the essence that something isn't quite right
• 1:48:50
  This is all you know and I do think that knowing differently
• 1:48:55
  It's it's great, but it can also
• 1:48:59
  Be more difficult to accept the things that you know shouldn't happen that way of course
• 1:49:06
  And I think you know
• 1:49:08
  Like I mentioned there's so many experiences that we've like we've had before
• 1:49:13
  That are way worse
• 1:49:15
  Like what is that? I just seeing me in public and checking my stuff. So I'm not nothing. I keep it in hard meat
• 1:49:22
  Of course, I felt bad right emotionally. I felt bad and I go this is nothing compared to you know
• 1:49:28
  For example observing and watching your mom die
• 1:49:31
  You know, this is nothing
• 1:49:33
  Yeah, just go live your life and and then again it goes back to what I said earlier
• 1:49:38
  I don't care what people think about me. That's their problem
• 1:49:43
  I'm okay. I'm living my life with my cup. I'm okay
• 1:49:49
  And I would have you know, I if if I would have let that experience interfere with my life
• 1:49:55
  Maybe maybe I would have ended up different maybe maybe my life would have been positive hence for maybe I would have ended up
• 1:50:01
  You know probably living somewhere in America where I would get shot by Thursday or maybe they ended up somewhere in Tanzania where I lived my life
• 1:50:09
  Happily ever after, right?
• 1:50:11
  But the idea of for example, police brutality and police injustices. It's everywhere. It's everywhere
• 1:50:17
  Right, I just the other day Kenyans went to the street because
• 1:50:22
  gentlemen was
• 1:50:24
  Shot in the head that there was a story and that's one of the few that he saw
• 1:50:28
  So there's another one called Albert Albert O'Juan was having lunch with his dad or dinner lunch
• 1:50:35
  Love and lunch with his dad these cops come and pick him up
• 1:50:39
  And they tell him hey
• 1:50:41
  You're needed the
• 1:50:43
  But the criminal investigation department because of something you said online. It's nothing big. Okay. Dad says is he going to be okay?
• 1:50:50
  Yeah, no problem. So they go
• 1:50:53
  next day dead
• 1:50:56
  At the police station
• 1:50:59
  Now they drove in 300 kilometers away
• 1:51:03
  Right, which is illegal, right? It's it's it's it's not it's not acceptable
• 1:51:07
  They they needed to have reported the nearest police station apparently they didn't
• 1:51:12
  drove him as far off
• 1:51:14
  The last conversation that we have online is of Albert
• 1:51:19
  calling
• 1:51:21
  A friend and saying these guys are taking me to central police station, which is the police station in Nairobi
• 1:51:26
  He was arrested in homo bay. Okay, and three three and three hundred and something kilometers away
• 1:51:32
  So of course the friend assures him and says hey, I've been arrested before it's okay
• 1:51:37
  Central position is safe take it easy just become right which is not the last time they heard of him
• 1:51:46
  alive
• 1:51:48
  The cops show up and give a statement the next day
• 1:51:52
  the
• 1:51:54
  I think it was the chief of cops
• 1:51:56
  What information do they say he banged his head against the world to death?
• 1:52:06
  What?
• 1:52:08
  CCTV footage from the
• 1:52:11
  Police station doesn't it doesn't that for some reason it doesn't yeah, it's not it's not functioning
• 1:52:17
  Wasn't functioning at that time even though right now it is
• 1:52:20
  But CCTV footage from the hospital, which is where they tried to take him or whatever
• 1:52:26
  We shows them showing up with him with the already dead
• 1:52:35
  So yeah, but and that's just one case right there's been cases and cases or lady that was arrested the other day two weeks two or three weeks ago
• 1:52:44
  And it up dying as well just
• 1:52:47
  Like that in police custody unknown scum's consistent
• 1:52:50
  Do you know if you're in the police cell you cannot be by yourself unless you were
• 1:52:55
  You're arrested of huge freaking criminal
• 1:52:59
  You cannot be in a police cell by yourself unless
• 1:53:03
  Unless I cannot imagine what would make you be by yourself right nobody saw him
• 1:53:08
  Cellmates nobody knows anything
• 1:53:11
  Hmm
• 1:53:13
  So this experience can happen to anybody right the experience and then again that can happen to me that not can happen to me here
• 1:53:22
  It's just
• 1:53:24
  It is life
• 1:53:25
  You brought up the fact that you had lived through
• 1:53:29
  Losing your mom as a source of strength to overcome all of these other things
• 1:53:36
  Hmm at the time when you're a teenager
• 1:53:39
  I
• 1:53:40
  Are you able to already have that wisdom of
• 1:53:45
  That this trauma is gonna serve you
• 1:53:50
  You mean that this trauma would change my life. I think I knew it would change my life
• 1:53:54
  I didn't think it would make me stronger actually thought I was giving up
• 1:54:01
  We would give it up like my mom's gone. Why am I going to school?
• 1:54:06
  Why should I go to school if you
• 1:54:09
  And I I in Kenya they have this
• 1:54:14
  I find it horrible system
• 1:54:16
  Where if you sit for national exams they would take the cream of the top and allocate them to what they call national schools
• 1:54:25
  So then national schools only have those smart people so I'd worked hard because I knew I have
• 1:54:31
  In Kenya education at the time was your way out of poverty
• 1:54:35
  Also they said it right so I worked hard and I was like I'm going to a national school
• 1:54:40
  And so I did
• 1:54:42
  But just before I joined national school
• 1:54:46
  Mom dies so there was nothing left right why am I working hard like what what what is there
• 1:54:51
  And so I that broke us it broke our family it broke us broke us and I think
• 1:54:57
  Seeing where we are now that we're able to go out in the world and travel and explore my my my brother was in Dubai
• 1:55:04
  The other day with a family doing deserts of ours are calling me brim and and you know things like that
• 1:55:12
  I still I think I think we survived by grace
• 1:55:16
  either grace or some magical powers
• 1:55:20
  Yeah, so yeah
• 1:55:23
  When it comes to that experience of losing mom
• 1:55:27
  I didn't think it would make me strong. I thought it would break me. I didn't know what was lying
• 1:55:32
  I didn't think I didn't care
• 1:55:34
  What would happen
• 1:55:36
  Like after a burial that's how like my my life was here
• 1:55:41
  This is it tomorrow
• 1:55:43
  Yeah, and when do you feel that you felt that shift?
• 1:55:48
  I think when I started having hope I think I started having hope and realizing that
• 1:55:54
  You know despite having that one person that is your backbone
• 1:55:59
  There are other people that actually care about you as well. There's a community around you that would care for you
• 1:56:06
  We have a very very supporting extended family
• 1:56:10
  We're gonna have a WhatsApp group. We communicate every single day
• 1:56:16
  Every single day somebody updates you want to do and somebody updates you want and it's every single day
• 1:56:22
  Very supportive they happen to come from my mom's side
• 1:56:26
  Right, which is which is very weird culturally right culturally
• 1:56:31
  Once in my culture in the Lua culture once you're married you belong to the man
• 1:56:37
  Okay, the kids belong the other way now you are not part of here anymore. We call them canaya canaya means like from your mom's
• 1:56:45
  My family and I were closer to our mom's family as compared to our dads in fact
• 1:56:52
  Not as close to dads
• 1:56:54
  Yeah
• 1:56:57
  So having that supporting
• 1:57:00
  Community around you makes you realize that maybe there's something special that they see in me
• 1:57:06
  You know, maybe there's something special that maybe will happen
• 1:57:10
  And then the more you grow you fight you experience more tough times and then you realize
• 1:57:16
  Yeah, there is hope out there. You're right
• 1:57:20
  Talent isn't wrong the corner from from Kenya or Tanzania, right?
• 1:57:25
  It's quite far away. Yeah, and you speak of this beautiful WhatsApp group. Yes. Have there been any moments where you
• 1:57:32
  felt that you really missed out on something because you're so far away of course, so
• 1:57:39
  So the challenge of these WhatsApp group is because they send pictures as well
• 1:57:43
  So I'll show you a picture that they sent the other day of a reunion and they had with all the Kenyan food and all the
• 1:57:49
  celebrations of somebody's birthday and then you're there eating your santa
• 1:57:53
  You know
• 1:57:58
  And I give you the other example that when I went to Kenya
• 1:58:01
  I had to go without my family. We were meant to all go together and
• 1:58:06
  And
• 1:58:08
  Quick fact by the way one of the reasons why we didn't go with the whole family. My wife is pregnant. Your wife's pregnant now
• 1:58:16
  Really? Why are you shouting?
• 1:58:20
  I don't know what's gonna come out your mouth
• 1:58:22
  She's pregnant. She's expecting she's expecting number three really. It's not public knowledge yet, but now I can say it. Oh wow
• 1:58:31
  Oh
• 1:58:33
  Number three. How far along is she next month?
• 1:58:38
  The baby's here. I'm loading
• 1:58:41
  Do you know if it's a boy or a girl? Oh my gosh. Yes
• 1:58:46
  Really? Yeah. Oh
• 1:58:49
  You completely derailed my whole
• 1:58:51
  Float process. I'm just like oh my gosh. That is such a good reason not to go
• 1:58:55
  Yes, so at the time that she we were going to travel back
• 1:58:59
  She would be exactly seven months pregnant and we didn't want to take them
• 1:59:04
  Then the issue that you saw you saw you saw you mentioned that man that was shot. Yeah point blank
• 1:59:10
  So there was those demonstrations that were happening
• 1:59:12
  And we didn't feel like we wanted
• 1:59:15
  The girls to experience Kenya in that form yet, you know at their age
• 1:59:20
  So it ended up being okay a little bit of a little bit of scuffle here and there, but it ended up being okay
• 1:59:30
  Another Baba I feel like people
• 1:59:33
  I know we were all born right like we were all babies and we all grow and clearly that is obvious and I think
• 1:59:40
  So we really take it for granted though
• 1:59:43
  Like we really take it for granted in a way that
• 1:59:47
  You know you said about me thinking about future one of my things
• 1:59:50
  I think a lot of times our strength is also our weakness, right? So like my strength is I overthink
• 1:59:56
  I overthink everything I pay attention to detail and I overthink
• 1:59:59
  Yes, you do
• 2:00:00
  But that can also spiral into a weakness right for for various reasons, but
• 2:00:06
  My point is is like even when I had my twins
• 2:00:08
  And whenever you are pregnant with twins at least my experience every single appointment you are told your high risk
• 2:00:15
  Chiriscirisc like every appointment
• 2:00:17
  And to the point where you're just like okay calm down
• 2:00:20
  Yeah, who they already are and like in my family there twins on my side in every single generation before I even knew how kids were born
• 2:00:29
  I was like I'm gonna have twins from my generation like always and
• 2:00:33
  I would tell these people like I understand, but these were naturally conceived
• 2:00:37
  You know if you perhaps had IVF and you were
• 2:00:40
  Maybe putting strain on your body where your body wasn't prepared or whatever it might be a little bit different
• 2:00:45
  But I go in to check the position of my first baby because I really wanted to try for a natural birth
• 2:00:51
  Like I really want that can't take pain, you know cannot take pain my pain threshold is solo
• 2:00:56
  But I genuinely believed that a natural vaginal birth is best for the baby, right?
• 2:01:02
  And so my first was breach. I was on my head doing at handstands all kinds of things trying to get this baby to turn knowing that it probably wouldn't work
• 2:01:10
  But if effort
• 2:01:15
  I go in and she's still
• 2:01:17
  first and
• 2:01:19
  This particular hospital there are no no to breach birth. So I was like okay, you know
• 2:01:23
  We tried we gave it a good go, but I'm gonna have to have this this C section
• 2:01:28
  And the the midwife she sees that there's some protein in my urine
• 2:01:33
  So she's trying to just check if
• 2:01:36
  It could be something worse. So she's calling the the next department a few floors up at the hospital
• 2:01:42
  And she can't get through to anybody on the phone. So she sends me with a handwritten note
• 2:01:45
  This is at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital in London, which is relevant because people have to comment on what Jamaica and third world
• 2:01:52
  Yeah, no if you told me that in London they'd be sending me with a handwritten note
• 2:01:57
  I would have been like start me silly
• 2:01:59
  Take this right so I take the note and I go upstairs and lo and behold
• 2:02:04
  I've developed preeclamjo and they they don't really know exactly what it is
• 2:02:08
  But basically you have to have the baby because you need to get the placenta out
• 2:02:14
  Um, so I was like okay the doctor comes in and explains and so I said to her okay
• 2:02:18
  So you'll call me and then we went to come back right for this for the C section
• 2:02:23
  She said no, April it's an emergency C section
• 2:02:27
  So it's it's no so I said no, it's not
• 2:02:31
  I said I came in for an appointment to check the position of the baby
• 2:02:35
  I didn't bring a hospital bag. I haven't eaten like no, it's not she goes through all the risks
• 2:02:41
  She's like you could die as it I appreciate what you're saying however, but it's not happening now
• 2:02:46
  Right and and a lot of people are like April what but the reason why I did that also is because we were during COVID
• 2:02:53
  They're ready short staff
• 2:02:55
  Remember going back to the mortality rates that we had spoken about early in the conversation right right
• 2:03:00
  And in my mind when you have twins
• 2:03:02
  You need double everything in the room
• 2:03:03
  So you go from five to six people to 10 to 12 people right
• 2:03:07
  You are already short staffed and now you're going to have to go and find extra five or six people for this pregnancy
• 2:03:14
  And I just didn't want that energy. I didn't want the rushing. I didn't want the panic
• 2:03:19
  You're already telling me every 10 seconds that you know twin births are risky
• 2:03:23
  Just didn't feel like the right thing for me and so I signed myself out
• 2:03:27
  Of the hospital which basically says that they are not responsible if anything should happen to me
• 2:03:32
  I'm at the time. I live six minutes from the hospital. So I was confident that should anything go wrong
• 2:03:38
  I can be there
• 2:03:39
  And honestly, it was the best decision I ever made. I was playing like fewer music as we say I was playing Jamaican music
• 2:03:46
  African song open air. So I'm a piano from South Africa and the nurses and stuff like this is music from my country
• 2:03:54
  I didn't know what I was having. I didn't know if I was having boys or girls and the doctor was like what
• 2:03:59
  Like you don't know what you're having. I'm like no when am I ever going to get the surprise again like I love surprises
• 2:04:04
  And so he was like oh, let's find out what these babies are
• 2:04:08
  It was just really good energy
• 2:04:10
  And I know that it wouldn't have been that had I had the emergency c-section
• 2:04:15
  But I say all of this to say
• 2:04:17
  That when you're carrying like life. I do think that as a society
• 2:04:24
  We don't understand the magnitude of what that means, right? And we don't appreciate
• 2:04:30
  All that is going into that that moment. So I'm like so happy for you
• 2:04:35
  Thank you. That's so happy for you. Thank you. A quick note. I mean when we got our first two
• 2:04:41
  We didn't we didn't want to know the sex really. Yeah, even the third one. I'll be honest with you
• 2:04:47
  I think the I think my wife
• 2:04:50
  Thought I wanted to know okay. Yeah
• 2:04:53
  But
• 2:04:55
  I was so used I was so ready to not not know right because by design. I just haven't known
• 2:05:02
  Yeah, and know that you know you're having a boy
• 2:05:05
  How does that feel it feels different
• 2:05:08
  Initially, I didn't it didn't matter to me like initially I worked I didn't I wouldn't I didn't care if it was a boy girl like it was
• 2:05:15
  It's baby. It's you know, it's beautiful. I wanted boys did you yeah 100% I felt that
• 2:05:22
  My mother left me and so when I was a teenager and I felt
• 2:05:27
  Really scared about becoming a mother for very long because I was like you know sometimes you hear of abusers
• 2:05:34
  Doing something to a child and then the child goes on to repeat what the abuser did
• 2:05:38
  And I wasn't physically abused, but it was emotional right and I was just very scared that maybe that was in my genes
• 2:05:44
  And that I would repeat that same sort of let's call it ill treatment
• 2:05:49
  I would repeat that to my child. So for years I was like yeah, no, maybe I shouldn't have kids
• 2:05:54
  And then when I was pregnant, I thought maybe if they're boys
• 2:05:59
  Then I'll have a better chance at having a successful like motherhood journey
• 2:06:05
  And I know that we live in this world where people like to say that gender doesn't matter
• 2:06:08
  But I think gender matters and therefore I think there is a difference between the mother
• 2:06:13
  daughter relationship versus the mother son relationship
• 2:06:16
  And I felt that if I had boys it would give me
• 2:06:20
  Perhaps a small advantage to making sure that we would have the type of relationship that I want
• 2:06:27
  From my kids. I will tell you that the universe knew better
• 2:06:31
  And like there is nothing obviously it's early days, right? So might be watching these years down the line and just like
• 2:06:37
  I thought you said that you had a good relationship
• 2:06:40
  But right now when I look at little boys growing up the energy levels
• 2:06:48
  They are on max like they don't sit still they don't like the idea of giving a boy a little puzzle
• 2:06:56
  To like sit down and become cool collected just doesn't seem like it works with nature, right like it just doesn't
• 2:07:03
  Yeah, I think the universe knew
• 2:07:05
  That I needed the calmness of girls and I think also, you know, the universe knows that
• 2:07:13
  My girls have the ability to love me in the way that I thought only sons could agree
• 2:07:18
  Yeah, I think so the universe would communicate
• 2:07:24
  Practically, right the universe does communicate with us practically
• 2:07:28
  And and to answer your question. I don't know how I feel. I'm not sure how I feel
• 2:07:33
  I've never been a father of boys. So this is going to be new. So this is father again
• 2:07:38
  So we're starting step one again. There are aspects of being a father that I'm excited about
• 2:07:45
  And then there are those aspects of being
• 2:07:48
  Third third time father that can be can be worrying right? Yeah, family dynamics will change and probably need a bigger car. So
• 2:07:58
  Yeah, yeah, I mean
• 2:08:00
  I'm impressed that you guys have decided to sacrifice sleep all over again because I think like
• 2:08:07
  My girls were sleeping from 11 months
• 2:08:10
  77 with one wake up for a feed at 11 o'clock, right?
• 2:08:14
  And I think because of my background in hospitality and having to do really really long hours and operate like when I say long hours
• 2:08:21
  I mean like for our sleep wake up do it again, right? And I do think that that helped prepare me
• 2:08:28
  For sleepless nights because I've been running around on on empty for so long
• 2:08:35
  However, the idea of me going back to that early like baby stage
• 2:08:40
  I'm not sure I could
• 2:08:42
  April never say never. I'm not saying never. I'm not sure I could remember who I was meant to be marrying when I was younger
• 2:08:51
  A black woman with the giant bottle
• 2:08:53
  Oh
• 2:08:56
  Oh my god, never say never very to things change. Yeah
• 2:09:01
  Oh your brothers come in
• 2:09:04
  Do you have different fears for for a son that you you did or didn't have for your daughters when you say fears
• 2:09:12
  I think so. I mean I first of all it's a boy
• 2:09:15
  Right? What would they look like what how would they face the world when they're faced with challenges, right?
• 2:09:22
  Boys and girls react different as you mentioned boys are more energetic. They have they have energy
• 2:09:27
  They move. They need to move
• 2:09:29
  How will that look like for him around him? How will he handle his
• 2:09:34
  pressure? How will he handle this appointment and I will society handle his reaction
• 2:09:40
  Right and those are things that I of course know it's happening in the future
• 2:09:44
  But it's something that I should think about already and you spoke earlier about the timeline that you could perhaps leave Thailand
• 2:09:51
  And now you're having another baby. Yeah. How does that also if at all the timeline? It holds it a lot
• 2:09:58
  Okay, but but and now I think
• 2:10:02
  I think now as it is it just I think it depends on many many other factors not not necessarily the age of our child children
• 2:10:10
  Now it will depend on the opportunities that we have at the opportunities outside
• 2:10:15
  That would I know that my wife would like early retirement
• 2:10:19
  So if we have an opportunity for that to happen and then that would be great
• 2:10:23
  I would like early retirement as well. I need some early retirement babes
• 2:10:29
  Google
• 2:10:33
  Oh, yeah, yeah, so we'll see we'll see
• 2:10:37
  How are you different having had this experience of living abroad for so many people
• 2:10:44
  I think that they're thinking about should they move and I do think that I take it for granted
• 2:10:51
  You know what it takes kind of pack up your things get on a plane and start somewhere new
• 2:10:56
  What do you think that you've gained by by taking that first leap in 2007? Yeah, and what do you think that you lost?
• 2:11:07
  That's a quite long prompt question, but I'll try and answer it in the best way I can
• 2:11:12
  I think I saw a meme somewhere and it says don't don't mess with anybody who was able to leave everything they could to go and live in a country
• 2:11:21
  Where they understood not the the language of the culture
• 2:11:26
  That is somebody who's willing to take risks. That's a risk taker. That's a courageous person and I think it taught me that
• 2:11:34
  Take your chances take your chances
• 2:11:37
  Because if you don't take the chance then how would you know if it was right for you?
• 2:11:41
  Right take your chance if it feels right if it feels right go for it take it
• 2:11:47
  so something I've learned is
• 2:11:50
  As much as the fear is there
• 2:11:53
  If you have the education and a knowledge to
• 2:11:57
  Sort of know how to maneuver areas around you go for it go for it
• 2:12:03
  If you feel now that I know what I know like in 2007
• 2:12:07
  I didn't know where my landing spot would be if I ever landed here
• 2:12:11
  And I I landed the airport and there's no job for me. What would I do?
• 2:12:15
  You know
• 2:12:16
  But now knowing what I know
• 2:12:19
  I
• 2:12:20
  Let's see if you told me to go and live in Iraq and if I know that the opportunity there is going to be great
• 2:12:25
  I probably will okay, right? I will be checks and balances for that, but I probably will it's possible
• 2:12:32
  There's something out there. I always say that every country is the best country
• 2:12:37
  Oh really every country is the best country because it depends on your experience
• 2:12:41
  I might be talking about safety here in Thailand, but they somebody in Thailand who says ah if you call that safety
• 2:12:47
  Go to hell sure, you know
• 2:12:49
  So your my experience might be different to somebody else's experience. However
• 2:12:54
  Just as you mentioned earlier. There's that brain you call it brainwashing. I call it planting the right seed
• 2:13:00
  Of being
• 2:13:01
  patriotic to your core in your country. There's a level of
• 2:13:07
  Knowledge that you are living in the best country at the moment that nobody can take away from you
• 2:13:13
  Right, that's just the reality of it now my
• 2:13:19
  My learning or something that I've learned that I think would
• 2:13:23
  Well, I would be helpful for you for me in the future
• 2:13:26
  Is I will make the place I go and live the best for me in every possible way I can
• 2:13:32
  Things that I'm missing out on cheese loads. I like I said the cultural connection
• 2:13:39
  Um the opportunity of organic growth
• 2:13:43
  Right again when I say organic growth
• 2:13:46
  Growth back home is not as easy
• 2:13:48
  Because because the competition is vast the competition within your your your
• 2:13:53
  Professional growth and economical growth is not as easy because you know you know an expert, right? You know you're living like that
• 2:14:01
  Person with hundreds of thousands of other people who are equally as qualified as you
• 2:14:07
  I always say that I'm here because I'm privileged and I'm lucky
• 2:14:10
  Like I'm lucky that our Google ad or that Google that email a center responded to me
• 2:14:15
  They probably responded to other people who never checked their email, but I did
• 2:14:19
  right
• 2:14:21
  So in terms of growth and luck
• 2:14:25
  I think I think I'm missing out on that organic growth every time I go back home. I see some my friends and
• 2:14:30
  They've been out there. They've gone and extended their education. They've started families
• 2:14:35
  They look like they're doing well and I miss that they're connected to the culture
• 2:14:39
  They understand what's going on back home. They're able to tap into local opportunities here and there
• 2:14:45
  All right, and I miss that I miss that I also miss growing
• 2:14:50
  I miss
• 2:14:52
  bringing up my children
• 2:14:54
  in
• 2:14:55
  Kenya right
• 2:14:58
  Not necessarily because I think it's the best
• 2:15:00
  It's just I miss it. It's just so
• 2:15:05
  I know a lot of people that are either living in Kenya or considering to move to Kenya and they're not Kenyans by the way
• 2:15:11
  And there really seems to be like an energy right like whether that's economic energy
• 2:15:16
  And I wonder if you ever think
• 2:15:19
  Should you have gone back sooner to kind of capitalize on that wave?
• 2:15:23
  Many times I think about that
• 2:15:25
  But I also think I think the same way I
• 2:15:30
  Oh so much to the society. I think it's the same way the society owes me that kind of growth, right?
• 2:15:35
  So if I if I move back there's gonna be something that it's going to offer me that will
• 2:15:40
  Will over you know defeat what I'm getting here, right? So the society also has to produce some what what am I being offered?
• 2:15:48
  Yeah, that will make my life very comfortable there and bring up children in the quality of life that I would be living here
• 2:15:55
  So I've thought about it
• 2:15:58
  Thinking about it
• 2:16:00
  But then again, it just depends on the opportunity that will be there
• 2:16:04
  right like a
• 2:16:06
  Patriotism does not pay bills. Yeah, you know
• 2:16:10
  We're seeing that with a lot of our athletes at the moment in Jamaica. I say a lot some athletes
• 2:16:15
  They're they're converting to Turkey
• 2:16:19
  I was the same same. I was a convert in the Middle East as well
• 2:16:22
  And I mean, I get it because like you say, you know
• 2:16:26
  Being proud doesn't pay the bills
• 2:16:28
  But I've been lying to if I didn't say my heart hurts a little
• 2:16:32
  And hopefully it's reconsideration from a local perspective. I so what are we offering?
• 2:16:37
  Like how you say your country needs to offer that that makes it makes sense
• 2:16:41
  We need to be doing the same
• 2:16:43
  Brain drain is a huge thing for for Jamaica where you have people going abroad
• 2:16:48
  Getting their education abroad and not necessarily bringing that back
• 2:16:52
  Until those are things that we kind of have to have to tackle and I think between you and I I think Jamaica and Kenya have a similar sort of cultural
• 2:17:02
  tendencies in terms of how
• 2:17:05
  Governance happens
• 2:17:07
  I think both our governors are governments have a lot of money and they could do better for the arts and the sports
• 2:17:15
  um
• 2:17:16
  Especially since because both of our countries those are the things that stand out in most times right like we
• 2:17:22
  Kenyan athletes stand out a lot during the Olympics. Yeah, very patriotic wave that Kenyan flag like nobody's business
• 2:17:29
  And then they go back to situations that are in my play in my opinion are
• 2:17:35
  The meaning comparing the kind of achievements they've had yeah, so so so I think and but when you look at the
• 2:17:44
  Opulence that the government would sort of portray if somebody's in power or somebody's
• 2:17:51
  Polypolitical positions
• 2:17:53
  It doesn't match. It doesn't match. They need to do better
• 2:17:58
  Pay your athletes
• 2:18:01
  It's true. It is true. Yeah, and as you say about flying flags, right?
• 2:18:05
  I look at you. I see socks. I see details. I'm like yep. This is a man who's sending a message to the world, right?
• 2:18:12
  That I know where I'm from. I'm proud of where I'm from
• 2:18:15
  I wonder would you have done this if you were still in Kenya? Probably not. Okay, probably not and and I and I will explain why
• 2:18:25
  I think we humans have a tendency where when you're removed from something you
• 2:18:30
  You have that curiosity to want to go back to it, right?
• 2:18:34
  And when I removed myself from Africa and then I came to this place where there's that lack of identity of being African
• 2:18:41
  I felt like I needed to do something about it like what am I doing like what is my identity as an African how can I
• 2:18:48
  portray myself as an African
• 2:18:50
  That is meaningful like has something meaningful to give to the world
• 2:18:53
  So I think if I lived there. Yes, I would have had that I think I still would have had that patriotism of being Kenya
• 2:19:01
  But but generally African
• 2:19:05
  Maybe not
• 2:19:07
  Do you feel any pressure in terms of your representation? So in my life
• 2:19:12
  I I don't know why I feel this way, but I feel that it is my responsibility in an effort to say thank you to my country
• 2:19:20
  It is my responsibility to also really challenge people stereotypes about Jamaica, right?
• 2:19:27
  And we don't need to go into all of them, but there are clearly distinctive things people think of both Marley
• 2:19:32
  They think of Ganjo they think of running and music. Yes, that's kind of it. Yes, and
• 2:19:38
  but they also think that
• 2:19:40
  As Jamaicans we're all hungry and suffering or that our lives in Jamaica
• 2:19:45
  would be kind of
• 2:19:47
  demeaning
• 2:19:48
  Right that we don't know anything about luxury
• 2:19:50
  What whatever the negative things you can associate that is is what they would put on us
• 2:19:55
  And I always feel that it is my duty almost to kind of say pause for a second and just
• 2:20:03
  Think and broaden that that spectrum. I'm not saying that all of their stereotypes don't exist
• 2:20:08
  But I'm saying that the spectrum is a lot wider that they would allow for and I
• 2:20:14
  I'm not sure I would feel the need to do that as much in a country that didn't speak English
• 2:20:21
  And so I'm wondering
• 2:20:23
  Here in Thailand
• 2:20:25
  Do you feel the need to to represent on a kind of broader scale?
• 2:20:30
  You do okay. Yes. Can I tell you something?
• 2:20:33
  This is something that comes from stands from my culture
• 2:20:38
  There's something we say can I talk about sex? You can talk about anything?
• 2:20:41
  So there's something we say that if you're going to have sex with another woman
• 2:20:44
  And you come from a different village you're representing your village
• 2:20:48
  Okay, in the bedroom. Of course. What are you talking about? It's the same
• 2:20:54
  If I come to your village in Jamaica and I'm coming from Kenya
• 2:20:57
  We say and I have to go and grab the beautiful
• 2:21:02
  The most beautiful sexy woman in that village
• 2:21:06
  Really? That the men there will respect you and they'll go who is this guy?
• 2:21:12
  Yes, oh wow, so if I'm in a relationship with another woman
• 2:21:18
  And I'm having sex at this point and if it's a woman from another kind I am representing my country here
• 2:21:24
  I'm representing my country here. This this is me. I am in the Olympics at the moment
• 2:21:36
  But to get to the point
• 2:21:38
  um
• 2:21:40
  I'm here. I'm not here by accident
• 2:21:43
  With you are not here by accident. You are not
• 2:21:45
  You did not you are not plucked from from your culture like that. It's by design the universe
• 2:21:52
  communicates to us
• 2:21:54
  practically and the you I feel like the universe put me here
• 2:21:59
  As an example to people. I share this example every day to Kenya. We have an association of Kenyan teachers here
• 2:22:06
  Kenyan general association of our six hundred. We always have these conversations
• 2:22:11
  Conversations online and I always say to them
• 2:22:15
  That listen your African teacher
• 2:22:17
  You're almost working against your swimming against the current here because there are loads of people who will find their job easily because their
• 2:22:26
  Caucasian and even if they don't speak English they already have that card the Caucasian card the white card
• 2:22:32
  And they will get that job but you you you have something to prove
• 2:22:37
  Unfortunately, that's how the world is designed at the moment
• 2:22:41
  But for us to get that design out we have to swim against the current to a point where people can meet us
• 2:22:49
  Proximity creates empathy, right? So if somebody relates with you
• 2:22:55
  Then they see oh there's something of substance here
• 2:22:58
  Then they will stop having those stereotypes
• 2:23:00
  But if you sit back and say hey, I'm easy. You think whatever you want about me. I don't care
• 2:23:07
  If you create a moment where there is that communication you're creating a moment where there's empathy
• 2:23:14
  Then they will start to understand why is it that I was feeling this way about this guy
• 2:23:19
  Why is it that I was feeling this way about this guy?
• 2:23:21
  So not shunning it off and I'm not going to you know
• 2:23:24
  I'm not going to stop wearing these because I don't want to make a statement
• 2:23:27
  But I feel like there is that responsibility that I have to pave way for those other Africans who would want to come here
• 2:23:34
  But maybe they cannot because
• 2:23:37
  Their email will not be responded
• 2:23:39
  Yeah, or they're not willing to go through four interviews when others are going for one exactly or to get rid of
• 2:23:45
  For for the interview and just say hey, we'll give you two this time
• 2:23:48
  Yeah, and then maybe one or maybe next time we'll just say oh you Africa come and get a job
• 2:23:52
  And that's what we want right?
• 2:23:54
  I always say that I want I want to live my life and work so hard at work
• 2:23:59
  so that
• 2:24:00
  The next time I leave if I have to leave my position
• 2:24:05
  The bosses at work will say if he's not from Kenya, we don't want him
• 2:24:10
  Yeah, yeah
• 2:24:13
  I it's too patriotic but but the reality is just
• 2:24:18
  Unfortunately, that's how the work is that world is designed at the moment
• 2:24:23
  If your life was a postcard tell me what the picture would look like
• 2:24:28
  April
• 2:24:30
  You know, there's somebody who's asking what a postcard is
• 2:24:35
  If my life was a postcard, it would look like it would have a cup. Okay. It would have a cup and
• 2:24:41
  Did I tell you what this means? No, tell me. Ah, April. Put your seat belt
• 2:24:51
  So
• 2:24:53
  Whatever you pour inside the cup is meant to to transform your life whether in the long run or short term right
• 2:24:59
  So for example now I have water in here and maybe because I want to quench my thirst my throat is feeling dry
• 2:25:05
  And I want to take a sip if you're pouring wine you want to feel a little bit tips if you're pouring whiskey
• 2:25:11
  Then you want to get drunk or whatever it is if you're pouring rum you have good taste. Hey
• 2:25:16
  This is a Jamaican scene
• 2:25:19
  So that's to come back to come back means cup if you're pouring poison
• 2:25:24
  Yeah, it also has its detriment right
• 2:25:27
  So whatever you pour inside a cup
• 2:25:32
  Is transforming your life whether in the long run or short term right and that's how I hope that people live their lives
• 2:25:39
  That's how I hope to live my life
• 2:25:41
  So when I'm having a conversation with you
• 2:25:44
  What you're sharing with me will enrich me or I also I believe or not
• 2:25:49
  Right, but that's the reality of life what you're sharing with me
• 2:25:53
  Is is enriching my life. It's it's it's it's curating my future, right? So what I'm sipping on now
• 2:26:02
  It's designing my future
• 2:26:04
  however
• 2:26:06
  Short or however long that's the key company
• 2:26:09
  It's a cup. That's what it means
• 2:26:12
  It's also an acronym K I K O M B E so the K is is knowledge
• 2:26:18
  Okay, I don't know why they put the K in there, but English is a weird language
• 2:26:23
  In the sense that when I'm having a conversation with you we're sharing knowledge
• 2:26:27
  I know so much about your maker now. I know so much about your background and I know so much about your experiences
• 2:26:33
  And this is something that I can use in future
• 2:26:36
  I is inquiry and information like I said earlier
• 2:26:40
  We will we have this inquiry to want to learn more about other people
• 2:26:44
  The other case is keenness we keen with each other we're paying attention to each other
• 2:26:49
  We're keen without each other's stories and that's how we should all live our lives
• 2:26:54
  Open-mindedness, right? So always open-mindedness
• 2:26:58
  I tell you who you are where you're from we will have a relationship
• 2:27:02
  Like I said earlier proximity breeds
• 2:27:05
  Anybody? So when we're together get to learn more about you whether you're Muslim or Christian Buddhist or whatever
• 2:27:13
  Just having a quick interaction gets to learn something about you or not
• 2:27:18
  Then there's mindfulness
• 2:27:20
  Paying attention to what is around us paying attention to the people paying attention to nature paying attention to
• 2:27:26
  What we put inside us paying attention to what is what we produce
• 2:27:30
  Right, and then the be is balanced. There's time to have fun
• 2:27:34
  And I do have a lot of fun and then there's time to be serious
• 2:27:38
  This time to cry. Miss time to laugh
• 2:27:41
  And then each of my favorite
• 2:27:44
  Is empowerment or enlightenment or education
• 2:27:48
  So what we do
• 2:27:50
  How does it empower other people to be better people and what you do what you share with me
• 2:27:55
  How does it empower me and how can I make it twisted to empower me to be a better person
• 2:28:01
  So kick on me kick on me. Yeah
• 2:28:04
  So that's what that would be my postcard a cup just a cup
• 2:28:08
  Amazing. Yeah. Thank you so much
• 2:28:11
  No worries April this was fun. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Is there anything that you haven't shared that you feel like you should share
• 2:28:18
  I can't think of any. I'm not sure I can think of any. Yeah. Is there anything else that I might have
• 2:28:25
  Share that I wouldn't yeah, there's so much, but I think I enjoyed this. Yeah, this is lovely. Yeah. Yeah
• 2:28:33
  What was the question you asked babe? What was babe? How did you get here? Google
• 2:28:41
  This has been great April. Yeah, you sound surprised
• 2:28:44
  Do you know what I didn't think it would be this
• 2:28:49
  What this activated and this this this this interactive? Oh, yeah, I thought it would be more of a question answer question answer
• 2:28:57
  Oh, no, that's not how we roll babe. I'm sorry, but I that was a stereotype I had and and I yeah, I've learned so much
• 2:29:04
  Thank you. Thank you so much. You have something
• 2:29:08
  There's a level of there's a way that you ask questions that really make me reflect yeah
• 2:29:14
  You go deeper you pinch pinch that part of my brain. How could it be better from your perspective? I don't think there's any other way I would make it better
• 2:29:25
  I
• 2:29:27
  It's making me think because I have a podcast as well. I have a podcast called two nilots in a pod
• 2:29:32
  Two two nilots in a pod and in our podcast we share about African stories African
• 2:29:39
  particularly lower culture, which is where I'm from yeah
• 2:29:42
  and
• 2:29:44
  Ali is my co-host Ali Ali is my co-host and we share about lower culture
• 2:29:50
  Things about lower culture that we we probably lost
• 2:29:53
  Probably got rid of because colonialism and stuff like that for example. I give you an example
• 2:29:59
  In my culture land belongs to a woman. Oh really? Yes, in my culture land belongs to a woman. No, a man
• 2:30:07
  Oh, yes, April if you yes
• 2:30:11
  If you and I were married. Yeah, it's my land my mom so your mother-in-law my mom
• 2:30:20
  Once your kids start growing up will come
• 2:30:23
  Call you and say April be be come here come here
• 2:30:27
  Do you see this land from here to here to here to here?
• 2:30:34
  This is your land wow
• 2:30:37
  If your kids go hungry, it's on you. Okay, this is your productive land
• 2:30:45
  So the man only owned the home by the building land, but the productive land
• 2:30:53
  Was owned by a woman amazing, and so we're trying to bring these stories back. Yeah, we're trying to bring these stories back
• 2:31:01
  Which ever way they go
• 2:31:03
  They go so the other segment that we have we have these 13 questions that we ask every guest. We help you come in as you can come
• 2:31:11
  Ali we have a guest Ali
• 2:31:15
  And we hope that you can join us as as a guest
• 2:31:18
  And I've learned so much and we give everybody 13 questions and then we try and structure conversation from these 13 questions
• 2:31:27
  And the way you've interacted with me I've learned so much. Oh good. Yeah Ali
• 2:31:32
  Watch this episode
• 2:31:35
  No, but I appreciate you being open, right?
• 2:31:37
  Like you can only have these kinds of conversations that people are willing to share. Yeah, yeah
• 2:31:42
  I truly enjoyed that. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm gonna ask them to take some pictures
• 2:31:47
  Yeah, we need pictures. We need pictures. Yeah