Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / From 17 Clients to £500M+ AUM: How Marc Norris Built a Thriving Financial Planning Firm | Marc Norris

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From 17 Clients to £500M+ AUM: How Marc Norris Built a Thriving Financial Planning Firm | Marc Norris · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Sam Oakes: From estate agent to half a billion under management.
• 0:02
  Sam Oakes: That's your journey at St.
• 0:03
  Sam Oakes: James's place.
• 0:07
  Marc Norris: And a few of them asked me, look, what else can you do?
• 0:09
  Marc Norris: Can you do anything on the tax side, the structure side, the investment side?
• 0:13
  Marc Norris: And I was like, well, look, not now, but I'm actually on this path and this journey to be able to do that.
• 0:17
  Marc Norris: Would you be interested in a conversation when I come out?
• 0:20
  Marc Norris: And a lot of them said yes.
• 0:22
  Marc Norris: Persistence, consistency.
• 0:26
  Marc Norris: You know, I did a lot of chasing.
• 0:28
  Marc Norris: Sometimes I was sat in the office till 11 o'clock at night making phone calls.
• 0:32
  Marc Norris: First year, I think we signed 17 clients.
• 0:36
  Marc Norris: And in my second year, we signed 70.
• 0:42
  Sam Oakes: I think social media, this kind of idea that everyone should be running their own businesses, has been a bit toxic over the last few years.
• 0:47
  Sam Oakes: It's put a lot of pressure on people.
• 0:48
  Sam Oakes: You're not as successful as you're running your own business.
• 0:51
  Marc Norris: You know, I think the world we're in at the moment with compliance regulation, you know, servicing senior clients, I think it's made it harder to become a business owner from day one.
• 1:00
  Marc Norris: This is quite a lonely business when you do it on yourself.
• 1:03
  Marc Norris: But actually, when you've got like-minded individuals that buy into your vision, your culture, your plans, it's a lot easier.
• 1:16
  Sam Oakes: Okay, so Mark, thanks so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:19
  Sam Oakes: How are you?
• 1:20
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, very well.
• 1:20
  Sam Oakes: Thank you.
• 1:21
  Sam Oakes: Thanks for having me.
• 1:21
  Sam Oakes: Oh, you're absolutely welcome.
• 1:22
  Sam Oakes: Look, from estate agent to half a billion under management, that's your journey that's in James's place.
• 1:28
  Marc Norris: Yep.
• 1:29
  Sam Oakes: So today you're going to tell us a little bit about how you got there.
• 1:31
  Marc Norris: Okay.
• 1:32
  Sam Oakes: So let's just start with the beginning.
• 1:33
  Sam Oakes: Estate agent to financial planner.
• 1:35
  Sam Oakes: What are those transferable skills?
• 1:36
  Sam Oakes: Why did you do it?
• 1:37
  Sam Oakes: And do you recommend it?
• 1:38
  Marc Norris: Yeah, look, I mean, uh, you know, I didn't plan to do this.
• 1:41
  Marc Norris: I was, as I said, an estate agent in central London, um, working for a nice business, relatively small business.
• 1:49
  Marc Norris: But, you know, 2012 kind of post-Olympics, and I'll get onto that story later.
• 1:53
  Marc Norris: Uh, just fancied a change.
• 1:55
  Marc Norris: And I was going to go back to university and study finance and economics.
• 2:00
  Marc Norris: And actually, a very close friend of mine who'd been at SJP 20 years or so said, look, why don't you come and try this?
• 2:06
  Marc Norris: And I had no idea what financial planning was, what wealth management was.
• 2:10
  Marc Norris: Uh, went for a couple of interviews at SJP and thought, you know what?
• 2:14
  Marc Norris: I mean, it's a relationship business.
• 2:16
  Marc Norris: It's a business within a business, and I was really keen to kind of grow, push out, you know, show my entrepreneurial spirit.
• 2:22
  Marc Norris: I had a lot of ambition in drive at that point.
• 2:24
  Marc Norris: I was a lot younger.
• 2:25
  Marc Norris: Uh, and it just was such a natural fit.
• 2:28
  Marc Norris: And yeah, I transitioned over, I think, in 2014.
• 2:32
  Sam Oakes: So, this entrepreneurial spirit that you talk about, tell us take us back to when you were an estate agent.
• 2:36
  Sam Oakes: Where did you know, how did that show up in that job role?
• 2:39
  Marc Norris: Well, so we we were a small estate and based in Queen's Park in London.
• 2:43
  Marc Norris: Uh, Letton's agent probably had about 150 landlords, so really small.
• 2:47
  Marc Norris: And over the space of probably three or four years, I developed a couple of good relationships with some big um administrators in London around the time of the kind of financial crisis.
• 2:58
  Marc Norris: A lot of portfolios, properties have been repossessed.
• 3:01
  Marc Norris: Uh, and I built a sales arm to that business quite quickly, and we were selling a lot of properties for probably 25 pence on the pound to lawyers, doctors, uh, business owners, private equity guys, hedge fund managers all across London.
• 3:17
  Marc Norris: And then we had this uh we had this block in East London in uh Hackney, Hackneywick, actually.
• 3:23
  Marc Norris: It was opposite the Olympic Park, and we owned the whole block, or we had the whole block under our under our management to sell.
• 3:28
  Marc Norris: And I had a very good idea to shortlet all the apartments to all the television networks so they could film the building and film the whole of the Olympic Stadium and kind of add that to their catalogue, if you like, of information when they're doing their their shows during the Olympics.
• 3:45
  Marc Norris: Uh, and so I kind of put out calls to everyone, you know, CNN, BBC, seven in Australia, uh, and turned out and had real legs.
• 3:53
  Marc Norris: And we started letting these properties at about a thousand pounds a night.
• 3:57
  Marc Norris: Uh, one of them we let for a year, you know, landlords at that point that own those properties made a lot of money, you know, off the back of that.
• 4:04
  Marc Norris: I I I own a fair bit from commission.
• 4:06
  Marc Norris: So it was kind of like an early Airbnb before Airbnb.
• 4:09
  Marc Norris: I should have really pursued it into Airbnb, and I'd probably be in a very different position.
• 4:12
  Marc Norris: But no, and and and look, I think that just kind of shows, you know, I was given an opportunity, took advantage of that opportunity to help out the agency, to help out all the landlords, but also to to help my own kind of personal development, and I really enjoyed it.
• 4:27
  Sam Oakes: Fantastic.
• 4:28
  Sam Oakes: So you you obviously earned some pretty good money at that point.
• 4:30
  Sam Oakes: Was that also a catalyst for you thinking, right, I've got an opportunity here to move on?
• 4:34
  Sam Oakes: Did you see that as a lump sum of money to invest in your future career?
• 4:37
  Sam Oakes: Had you had enough by then?
• 4:38
  Marc Norris: Yeah, look, and and what I did is is off the back of that kind of relationship, I I actually bought one of those flats from the administrator.
• 4:45
  Marc Norris: Uh I flipped it a week after I bought it and and made some more commission off of some profit off the back of that with my now wife, who was actually my girlfriend at the time.
• 4:56
  Marc Norris: Uh, and then the decision was, you know, after speaking to my my buddy at Bin at SJP, do I go down this route and start a business and use these funds to look after myself for a year or two, however long it took to build the business, or do I go and buy a property for us to move into?
• 5:12
  Marc Norris: And, you know, obviously I didn't choose the property route for us to move into.
• 5:16
  Marc Norris: We carried on renting in London and I kind of put the money behind myself and joined SJP to start this business.
• 5:21
  Marc Norris: So yeah, it was a real catalyst and gave me a bit of freedom to not have to worry, I suppose, about my day-to-day rent, living expenses.
• 5:28
  Marc Norris: Uh, obviously, when you train in the academy, you don't get paid to do it.
• 5:31
  Marc Norris: Well, you get paid expenses, but not enough to survive on.
• 5:35
  Marc Norris: Uh, yeah, and that was a real, real big help for me.
• 5:38
  Sam Oakes: Fantastic.
• 5:38
  Sam Oakes: So you decided to join through um the St.
• 5:41
  Sam Oakes: James's Place Academy.
• 5:43
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 5:43
  Sam Oakes: Tell us about your experience with that.
• 5:44
  Sam Oakes: Was it useful?
• 5:45
  Sam Oakes: Was it helpful?
• 5:45
  Sam Oakes: Did it give you the insight that you needed to be able to hit the floor running?
• 5:49
  Marc Norris: Yeah, no, I think it was brilliant.
• 5:50
  Marc Norris: I I, you know, I had my first stage interview with Adrian Batchel, who was the head of the academy at the time, uh, just to give me a bit of information about what it was, how it worked, and you know, I thought, yeah, this this could be for me.
• 6:01
  Marc Norris: And then you go for a five-stage interview process at the time was with an American guy, Tom Haran.
• 6:06
  Marc Norris: Uh, he was a bit of a cool dude, but very particular, should we say.
• 6:10
  Marc Norris: Um, and it was everything from building a business plan, which I'd never done before.
• 6:14
  Marc Norris: I'd never started a business, building a marketing plan, network analysis, what you're going to do on day one, how the academy structured.
• 6:21
  Marc Norris: And that was very kind of thought-provoking for me and allowed me to kind of plan my first year, my second year, my third year.
• 6:29
  Marc Norris: Um, and I actually liked it.
• 6:31
  Marc Norris: I love the interview process, I like what it taught me.
• 6:34
  Marc Norris: I love the structure of the academy and and everything I learned because I was so new to this, I didn't even know what the FCA was when I joined SJP.
• 6:41
  Marc Norris: And within that kind of six-month period of doing my exams and classroom learning, you know, I felt like a different person when I came out of it.
• 6:49
  Sam Oakes: When you went through it and you were learning about the FCA, you're learning about financial planning, you're learning about the regulatory requirements, and maybe starting to see there's a huge opportunity, but maybe starting to think, well, actually, this is very highly regulated.
• 7:02
  Sam Oakes: This could take time for me to build a business.
• 7:05
  Sam Oakes: Did it put you off in any way coming from an environment which was probably a quicker turnaround in respective earnings and commission, etc.?
• 7:11
  Marc Norris: Uh well, I think post probably RDR, which is when I joined, it was a very heavily regulated industry.
• 7:18
  Marc Norris: I think the R01, which is your first kind of regulation ethics exam, that was a bit of a dry one for me.
• 7:26
  Marc Norris: Um but a necessity, you know, you need to understand that kind of stuff.
• 7:30
  Marc Norris: And, you know, during the learning process, during the education process in the academy, it was more about relationship building.
• 7:36
  Marc Norris: This is how you'll build a practice.
• 7:38
  Marc Norris: You know, in some senses, it kind of made it sound easier than it probably was.
• 7:42
  Marc Norris: But, you know, I think having that knowledge on the kind of FCA, the ethics, the regulation, helped me build a compliant business because you still got to do it within the framework of your regulator.
• 7:51
  Marc Norris: But fundamentally, we do run a relationship business and advice business, so we are dealing with people, which yeah, I found very similar to my previous role as an estate agent.
• 8:04
  Sam Oakes: You kind of like going back to when you were an estate agent, you built this network of yeah, mentioned sort of solicitors, accountants, hedge funds, managers, all that type type of network.
• 8:14
  Sam Oakes: Like not everyone does that.
• 8:16
  Sam Oakes: So, how much did that impact your career by connecting with those types of individuals?
• 8:23
  Marc Norris: Yeah, I think when you're selling properties at 25 pence on the pound, you'll build a network pretty easily, right?
• 8:28
  Marc Norris: Um But you know, when when I first joined the academy, I did do a bit of network analysis where I spoke to some of those people, some I had a really good relationship with.
• 8:37
  Marc Norris: And a few of them, we'd we'd been involved in refinancing portfolios for our partners, we'd been involved in yield analysis and increasing yields for clients.
• 8:45
  Marc Norris: And a few of them asked me, look, what else can you do?
• 8:48
  Marc Norris: Can you do anything on the tax side, the structure side, the investment side?
• 8:52
  Marc Norris: And I was like, Well, look, not now, but I'm actually on this path and this journey to be able to do that.
• 8:56
  Marc Norris: Would you be interested in a conversation when I come out?
• 8:59
  Marc Norris: And a lot of them said yes.
• 9:01
  Marc Norris: Some of them didn't respond and didn't answer, but that's natural.
• 9:04
  Sam Oakes: Yep.
• 9:04
  Marc Norris: Uh, and a few I still contact today, even though they're not clients.
• 9:08
  Marc Norris: And, you know, a good example of this is I hadn't heard from one of my landladies for 10 years, and she's now one of my biggest clients.
• 9:14
  Marc Norris: She just came to me out of the blue and said, meaning, been meaning to get back to you.
• 9:17
  Marc Norris: And I was like, Well, I've been chasing you for 10 years, and she became a client this year, and she's now a fantastic client and one of my biggest clients.
• 9:25
  Sam Oakes: It just tells you the power of persistence and prospecting, you know, never let go because you never know when that person might come back to you, and they're probably a whale.
• 9:32
  Sam Oakes: I've not met her, so what can I say?
• 9:35
  Sam Oakes: Um, so listen, look, building the business from the ground up, okay, um, it's tricky.
• 9:40
  Sam Oakes: Um, I speak to lots of different people that come into the financial planning profession, they always find those first couple of years really, really tricky.
• 9:46
  Sam Oakes: Some people excel, but some people take a long time, right?
• 9:49
  Sam Oakes: A long time to build those client relationships and network and find the right people.
• 9:52
  Sam Oakes: Tell us a little bit about your journey.
• 9:54
  Sam Oakes: How did you approach it?
• 9:55
  Sam Oakes: And what did you do to if you did, accelerate your learning and client development?
• 10:05
  Marc Norris: Uh I think uh in the early years I had a had a buddy, as I said, who brought me into SJP.
• 10:11
  Marc Norris: So he was a very good mentor to me, in a sense that he allowed me to kind of sit in on his meetings, you know, like a fly on the wall and just listen and absorb.
• 10:19
  Marc Norris: And that was really helpful.
• 10:21
  Marc Norris: He was quite a technical guy, very good on the tax and investment planning side.
• 10:25
  Marc Norris: And that still serves me today in a lot of meetings.
• 10:27
  Marc Norris: I sit in on with with clients, and also I spoke to other partners in the building.
• 10:32
  Marc Norris: You know, can I just come and sit in on some of your meetings?
• 10:34
  Marc Norris: How do you explain the investment side?
• 10:36
  Marc Norris: How do you explain the structure side, the tax side?
• 10:38
  Marc Norris: So mentorship was fantastic.
• 10:40
  Marc Norris: Um, you know, when I went live, it was kind of day one, you got no clients, and I tried everything, you know.
• 10:47
  Marc Norris: I cold called, I cold emailed, I went to networking events, I ran seminars, I ran webinars, I contacted all the old clients I ever knew.
• 10:56
  Marc Norris: And, you know, it wasn't that fruitful.
• 10:58
  Marc Norris: I mean, in the first year I got 17 clients.
• 11:00
  Marc Norris: And I also, personal development, you ask a question there, you know, what else could I do that differentiated me from other partners at the time?
• 11:08
  Marc Norris: And and I'd been in property, so I decided to get the mortgage qualification quite early on as a way to kind of de-risk.
• 11:14
  Marc Norris: If I wasn't out there working with a lot of clients on their investments and pensions and protection and everything else we do, well, could I still do some mortgages with my existing network to keep me, you know, above water in a sense?
• 11:27
  Marc Norris: And that worked really well.
• 11:28
  Marc Norris: I did a few buy-to-elect mortgages for a client of mine from my previous days, and she became my biggest client off the back of doing a really, really good job on the mortgage side.
• 11:38
  Sam Oakes: So it's actually quite a few people I've spoken to at um St.
• 11:40
  Sam Oakes: James's place who did exactly the same thing.
• 11:42
  Sam Oakes: They let they did lean into the mortgages quite early on, and it kind of did keep them, you know, their head above water, but it also opened up a huge amount of opportunities for the investments in the pension side.
• 11:50
  Sam Oakes: Sort of mortgages, protection leaning into that.
• 11:53
  Sam Oakes: Um so yeah, it's not a a strategy that um is just because you worked in you know the estate agency background, quite a few people with SJP I've spoken to have done it and been successful in it.
• 12:03
  Sam Oakes: What about networking then?
• 12:04
  Sam Oakes: You know, you obviously were a strong networker, a state state agency background, you know, they had a strong network.
• 12:08
  Sam Oakes: Surely that came into play at some point.
• 12:10
  Marc Norris: Yeah, a list of contacts that worked for the NHS.
• 12:13
  Marc Norris: There's about 850 contacts consultants, and I emailed them all and said, Look, would you be interested in attending a seminar in the Kingsway office at the time?
• 12:22
  Marc Norris: And I think I had about 29 people turn up in a 14-person boardroom.
• 12:26
  Marc Norris: So it and I didn't know that many people were going to show up.
• 12:29
  Marc Norris: And so I'm in the boardroom, it's absolutely packed.
• 12:32
  Marc Norris: And I'm giving a seminar on the NHS pension, and off the back of that, I got four or five clients, and they're still great clients today.
• 12:39
  Marc Norris: And I lent a lot on SJP.
• 12:41
  Marc Norris: There were a lot of people, you know, in the in in in in when I first came out the academy, I didn't know a huge amount of get about pensions and tax and everything else, but there were some people at head office who really did, who'd been here 20 plus years, and actually they came in and did seminars for me.
• 12:57
  Marc Norris: So all I had to do was fill the seats.
• 13:00
  Marc Norris: And sometimes you'd only get four people turn up, sometimes you'd get 50 people turn up.
• 13:04
  Marc Norris: And you know, I just tried everything.
• 13:07
  Sam Oakes: So besides to me, uh running these events, running these seminars, they became an opportunity for you to progress forward.
• 13:13
  Sam Oakes: They that was a catalyst of you starting to generate clients, that face-to-face networking, seminars, events via persistent outreach.
• 13:23
  Marc Norris: Yep.
• 13:23
  Marc Norris: Yeah, and you know, I think being visible, being available to clients, you know, now we do everything on Zoom and we do Zoom webinars and seminars, and yes, we might have 200 people turn up, but in the early days, actually being around clients, uh face to face, building those relationships.
• 13:41
  Marc Norris: You know, we hosted one once in an Indian restaurant in Croydon for a GP, a good friend of mine at the time, and he bought about eight GPs along.
• 13:49
  Marc Norris: Uh, we had a big meal, uh, a couple of beers.
• 13:52
  Marc Norris: I did some talks around tax planning, investment planning, and it went great.
• 13:56
  Marc Norris: And because he brought a few clients along, we showed up.
• 13:59
  Marc Norris: I had a a another person there at the time with me.
• 14:01
  Marc Norris: We picked up quite a few clients off the back of it.
• 14:03
  Marc Norris: But you know, my first year, I think we signed 17 clients, and then my second year we signed 70.
• 14:10
  Marc Norris: And that was through probably a bit of a shift.
• 14:13
  Marc Norris: Uh, we built some introducer uh relationships, and that started to really drive business growth.
• 14:19
  Sam Oakes: Tell me a little bit about those introducer relationships then, because that obviously came a little bit later on.
• 14:23
  Sam Oakes: So, what did you lean into?
• 14:24
  Sam Oakes: Again, was it your network previously?
• 14:26
  Sam Oakes: Was it a new network?
• 14:27
  Sam Oakes: How did they come about?
• 14:28
  Marc Norris: Yeah, one of the one of them was a friend of mine who I'd known from school, hadn't seen him in probably 10 years, and uh he left a role at HMRC and went and set up uh his own accountancy with another friend.
• 14:40
  Marc Norris: Uh, I saw it come up on LinkedIn, I reached out to him and said, you know, hey, do you want to do you want to go for a beer or some lunch?
• 14:45
  Marc Norris: And we did.
• 14:46
  Marc Norris: We got on, we reconnected, and you know, they have become a partner of ours to this day.
• 14:53
  Marc Norris: You know, they started as a really small accountancy firm and they've grown into a top 100 accountancy firm in the UK.
• 14:58
  Marc Norris: So that was very powerful.
• 15:00
  Marc Norris: Uh solicitors uh in the early days, you know, we'll wheel writers.
• 15:05
  Marc Norris: We used to give a lot of clients across.
• 15:07
  Marc Norris: And I'm a big, big fan in kind of giving a lot before I get, yeah.
• 15:11
  Marc Norris: And that typically happens with accountants.
• 15:14
  Marc Norris: Um, I always give a few clients to them first.
• 15:17
  Sam Oakes: So let's get back to that because we were having a chat, me and Luke earlier about referrals and people saying, Oh, I'll give you a referral fee and all of that.
• 15:23
  Sam Oakes: So when you say give, you were talking like, yeah, just here you go.
• 15:27
  Sam Oakes: This person wants to speak to you.
• 15:28
  Sam Oakes: Were you asking for anything in return?
• 15:30
  Marc Norris: Yeah, so all we want in return is clients, you know, a lead that we can then deal with that need that have a need, and accountants can really identify that.
• 15:37
  Marc Norris: When we refer a client to someone, we don't expect anything back in terms of monetary remuneration or fees.
• 15:42
  Marc Norris: We just want someone to take care of our clients like we would, give them a great service.
• 15:47
  Marc Norris: When someone refers to us, we do pay referral fees, and we're happy to do that.
• 15:51
  Marc Norris: Some people take it and some people don't.
• 15:54
  Marc Norris: Uh, and I think that really solidifies the relationship because ultimately we are going to get more from an accountant than we can give because these guys probably have more self-employed clients than us.
• 16:04
  Sam Oakes: Interesting then, right?
• 16:05
  Sam Oakes: You you do pay referral fees.
• 16:06
  Sam Oakes: A lot of people do, and some people accept them, some people don't.
• 16:10
  Sam Oakes: Who refers you the most business?
• 16:11
  Sam Oakes: The one who accept the referral fee or the ones that don't?
• 16:14
  Marc Norris: Absolutely.
• 16:14
  Marc Norris: The ones that accept the referral fees give us the most business, and the ones we tie in on a referral basis.
• 16:19
  Marc Norris: So generally, how we do it very differently to other firms is we will give them a referral fee of the initial work we do for a client, and then we will give them a referral fee of the ongoing work we are doing for a client.
• 16:30
  Marc Norris: Okay.
• 16:30
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 16:30
  Marc Norris: And the reason why is when we're dealing with the accountants on an annual basis, you know, claiming things on the tax return, we are expecting the accountant to say, How's the relationship going with Mark?
• 16:41
  Marc Norris: You know, can you get this data from them?
• 16:42
  Marc Norris: So they're helping us give that ongoing service.
• 16:45
  Marc Norris: Right.
• 16:45
  Marc Norris: And so we pay them.
• 16:46
  Marc Norris: That embeds them in our practice.
• 16:48
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 16:48
  Marc Norris: And it's a lot more difficult for them to leave and find someone else.
• 16:51
  Marc Norris: That's so true.
• 16:52
  Sam Oakes: It's less transactional.
• 16:53
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 16:53
  Sam Oakes: It becomes part of the journey.
• 16:54
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 16:55
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, I love that.
• 16:55
  Sam Oakes: That's a really great explanation, actually.
• 16:57
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 16:57
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, we really like it.
• 16:58
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 16:59
  Sam Oakes: Very good.
• 17:00
  Sam Oakes: I've not heard that one before, actually.
• 17:02
  Marc Norris: Yeah, look, I mean, we we we now have trained or taught our advisors to do a similar thing.
• 17:07
  Marc Norris: So the way to embed a true introducer and really be aligned to one another is tie them in for the long term.
• 17:13
  Marc Norris: You know, it's what we do with our clients.
• 17:15
  Marc Norris: We want them to be with us long term, we want that loyalty, we want the exact same from introducers.
• 17:20
  Sam Oakes: Where else would you go above and beyond in respect of that relationship?
• 17:24
  Sam Oakes: So you tie them in on the ingoing basis.
• 17:25
  Sam Oakes: Do you do anything else with them to make them deeper rooted with you?
• 17:32
  Marc Norris: Yeah, so we do.
• 17:33
  Marc Norris: So for this particular introducer, we do a quarterly webinar for all of their clients.
• 17:37
  Marc Norris: Uh, you know, and they've got 8,000 clients.
• 17:39
  Marc Norris: So we get them to offer their clients the chance to join a webinar.
• 17:43
  Marc Norris: And we'll do it on financial planning for business owners, we might do it on estate planning, we might do it on mortgage planning, we might do it on end-of-year tax planning.
• 17:51
  Marc Norris: It's a free seminar that we run, looks great for the accountant because they're providing an opportunity to look at a webinar from someone who's regulated to give that advice.
• 18:00
  Marc Norris: Uh, so that's really helped.
• 18:02
  Marc Norris: You know, I think it's just about how you would treat a friend.
• 18:05
  Marc Norris: It's kind of you see them often, you go and sit in their office.
• 18:08
  Marc Norris: I do training sessions for their own staff because a lot of these are very junior accountants.
• 18:13
  Marc Norris: I talk to them about how best to spot opportunities with their clients.
• 18:17
  Marc Norris: If a client sat with hundreds of thousands of cash in their business account earning 0%, well, how can we how can we better that?
• 18:24
  Marc Norris: How can we help them achieve more from their cash in the bank?
• 18:26
  Marc Norris: Things that they wouldn't necessarily know, and that's been really valuable for them being able to recruit good people and spot that opportunity.
• 18:33
  Marc Norris: Education.
• 18:34
  Marc Norris: Education, yeah.
• 18:35
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, I love that.
• 18:35
  Sam Oakes: And also giving giving you time.
• 18:37
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 18:37
  Sam Oakes: Means you care, space time, people remember you, you're adding value.
• 18:40
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:41
  Sam Oakes: It goes back to that kind of you know, you're passing somebody a lead, you're adding value, you're not expecting something in return.
• 18:46
  Sam Oakes: Here's some value, here's some value.
• 18:47
  Sam Oakes: And people go, oh, thank you very much for that.
• 18:49
  Sam Oakes: And they remember you and they want to continue using you.
• 18:51
  Marc Norris: I think I also think it cements the relationship the client has with their accountant.
• 18:55
  Marc Norris: Accountancy is very transactional, right?
• 18:57
  Marc Norris: Once a year, it's very rare that you know someone will call up their accountant two times a week to get advice because otherwise they get billed a lot of money for it.
• 19:05
  Marc Norris: It's usually my end of year accounts happen.
• 19:06
  Marc Norris: Can you draft my accounts?
• 19:08
  Marc Norris: So, actually, throughout the year, because we're having multiple touch points with the client, we're talking to them about their accountant, we'll provide the data to your accountant.
• 19:15
  Marc Norris: It kind of solidifies that relationship between client, accountant, and advisor.
• 19:19
  Marc Norris: So it's more of kind of an incubator for the client, if you like.
• 19:22
  Sam Oakes: Interesting.
• 19:23
  Sam Oakes: Goes back, you know, when you I run podcasts and I produce podcasts.
• 19:27
  Sam Oakes: There is a huge opportunity in that space for that level of social proof and uh connection between the small family office style that you've built between the accountant and yourself and how you can co co-create podcasts that then would go on a weekly basis around a specific subject matter that's relevant to that audience.
• 19:45
  Sam Oakes: It could be the markets, what's going on in the markets, the turmoil what's going on.
• 19:48
  Sam Oakes: That's an interesting one, actually, at this point, because I know that you um you've done really well in markets when there is a little turmoil and people are a bit concerned.
• 19:58
  Sam Oakes: What's your strategy to calming clients down then in times of worry?
• 20:04
  Marc Norris: We we we uh take it kind of head on.
• 20:08
  Marc Norris: We produce a lot of content on volatility, we produce a lot of content on the markets.
• 20:13
  Marc Norris: SJP are very good at giving us the tools to enable us to do that.
• 20:16
  Marc Norris: Uh, you know, our job is to get that out to our client bank.
• 20:20
  Marc Norris: When we bring a client on board, you know, we talk to them about the journey of investing.
• 20:24
  Marc Norris: You know, it's not always very linear and just follows a trend upwards.
• 20:27
  Marc Norris: It can be up and down.
• 20:28
  Marc Norris: And there's a very good chart that we've got that shows kind of a one-year volatility versus a 10-year volatility.
• 20:33
  Marc Norris: And over 10 years it's relatively smooth.
• 20:35
  Marc Norris: Yeah, but clients don't notice that, right?
• 20:37
  Marc Norris: They notice the emotional journey of the ups and downs on a monthly basis.
• 20:40
  Marc Norris: So we say to them, look, you'll probably hear from us a lot more when times are negative, when times are positive.
• 20:46
  Marc Norris: When times are positive, clients feel happy, they feel optimistic.
• 20:49
  Marc Norris: When times are negative, clients feel scared, they feel worried, they want reassurance.
• 20:53
  Marc Norris: That's where, in my opinion, an advisor should be working very hard with their clients.
• 20:58
  Marc Norris: And actually, because we take it, you know, and and and we're on the front foot, we get a lot more business and we do it, you know, we say to a client, look, Mr.
• 21:06
  Marc Norris: Client, if you are going or Mrs.
• 21:07
  Marc Norris: Client, if you're going to do your ISA this year anyway, why wait until the 4th of April or 5th of April next year?
• 21:13
  Marc Norris: We're in a time where the markets are down.
• 21:15
  Marc Norris: Why not do it now?
• 21:16
  Marc Norris: Get it done early.
• 21:16
  Marc Norris: And, you know, there's a proven uh, you know, it there's a proven chart that shows by doing your investments early in the tax year versus later in the tax year can add value over a 10-year period, you know, not ignoring the fact that the markets are down massively.
• 21:29
  Marc Norris: And we've generally seen our best months from a productivity perspective uh in times where markets have been very difficult.
• 21:37
  Sam Oakes: So make sure you're communicating, make sure you're reaching out and reassuring and having those conversations because they're probably panicking and they're probably thinking maybe I should take my money out, and that might be the worst thing to do.
• 21:47
  Sam Oakes: And being there and have a having a a kind of rational conversation is only going to keep them at ease.
• 21:55
  Sam Oakes: Is the status now, right?
• 21:56
  Sam Oakes: I can't remember which one it was now.
• 21:57
  Sam Oakes: Y charts.
• 21:59
  Sam Oakes: The number one reason clients leave their financial planner is due to lack of communication.
• 22:05
  Marc Norris: And you and you're exactly right.
• 22:06
  Marc Norris: I mean, when clients are at home uh showing in their own mind about what's happening in the markets, you do not know what they are thinking.
• 22:13
  Marc Norris: And they could be thinking about leaving, they could be worried.
• 22:16
  Marc Norris: Someone else has reached out to them from another advice firm that says, I'll coach you through this.
• 22:20
  Marc Norris: But if you're not dealing with those clients or you're not talking to the client, someone else may be.
• 22:24
  Marc Norris: So I think communication is absolutely key.
• 22:27
  Marc Norris: And whether that's marketing, social media, picking up the phone, dropping them a WhatsApp or a text, I think it's really important.
• 22:34
  Sam Oakes: But do you react to or do you sort of preempt problems that might be coming up and things that are going on?
• 22:39
  Sam Oakes: So do you put content out before uh the end of the tax year or what how do you approach sort of specific uh points in time that might cause uh the client uh anxiety or concern?
• 22:50
  Marc Norris: Yeah, like there's certain events throughout the year.
• 22:52
  Marc Norris: You can preempt a budget, for example.
• 22:54
  Marc Norris: You know, we put a lot of content out and and SHAP are very good at this, uh kind of preempting what's going to happen during a budget and what that could mean.
• 23:02
  Marc Norris: Now, a lot of it is speculation from clients that you know, particularly the budget we've just had around pensions and tax-free cash and what's going to happen there.
• 23:10
  Marc Norris: Do I need to take my money out?
• 23:11
  Marc Norris: What should I do?
• 23:12
  Marc Norris: And you know, for the for those points, we can only reassure.
• 23:15
  Marc Norris: Uh, for a lot of times, though, you have to be quite reactive if things happen suddenly in the market.
• 23:21
  Marc Norris: I mean, COVID was a great example of that.
• 23:23
  Marc Norris: You know, this this stuff that's just happened in the US with tariffs and Trump, and the market has been very volatile.
• 23:28
  Marc Norris: So you can be slightly more reactive in those times, but I think there is a world where preempting what's happening, tax year end, for example, is a great one.
• 23:36
  Marc Norris: So we put a lot of content out before these events happen, and then we do a lot of post kind of event happening content as well.
• 23:42
  Sam Oakes: And what's the most successful piece of content?
• 23:44
  Sam Oakes: And what's the most successful type of content do you put out?
• 23:47
  Sam Oakes: Uh is it email, is it social media, is it video?
• 23:51
  Sam Oakes: You know, what what medium and what platform?
• 23:53
  Marc Norris: I mean, we use so for all of our kind of um email content, we use MailChimp to get our kind of mass emails out there for people.
• 24:01
  Marc Norris: I suppose more personalized emails is probably the most successful.
• 24:04
  Marc Norris: Yeah, you know, nothing beats picking up the phone to a client and have a conversation with them or sitting down with them face to face.
• 24:10
  Marc Norris: But if we're doing it on that mass basis, then I think those personalized emails really help.
• 24:15
  Marc Norris: But you know, unfortunately, there's only so many hours in the day, we can't reach out to X amount of people in one day.
• 24:20
  Marc Norris: So sometimes we have to do mass mail outs.
• 24:23
  Marc Norris: But, you know, that coupled with the insights, the e-briefings that SJP put out there, uh, our LinkedIn, our Instagram all get quite a lot of views nowadays.
• 24:33
  Marc Norris: So it's hard to tell.
• 24:34
  Marc Norris: But I'd say personal emails and telephone calls are the best.
• 24:38
  Sam Oakes: Let's go back to the first couple of years.
• 24:40
  Sam Oakes: So you went from 17 to 70 clients, right?
• 24:42
  Sam Oakes: At that point in time, what were you thinking about your business?
• 24:44
  Sam Oakes: Were you thinking about I'm gonna build a half a billion pound business in a few years' time, or were you thinking this is a lifestyle business?
• 24:50
  Marc Norris: Yeah, I think you know, in the early years it's always a lifestyle business.
• 24:53
  Marc Norris: I think when I joined, that was generally the path advisors trod, you know, in SJP and in the industry.
• 25:02
  Marc Norris: Um, I think as time has gone on, you know, developing bigger businesses has just naturally happened in this industry.
• 25:09
  Marc Norris: Um, you know, I always thought, you know, getting back to where I was after three years in terms of what I was earning, what success looked like to me after kind of three years, I'd be quite happy.
• 25:19
  Marc Norris: And then a couple of opportunities came along, probably end of 2017, early 2018, to uh acquire a book of clients from an advisor who had a bit of a unique family situation at the time with health issues with with with with one of his children.
• 25:36
  Marc Norris: He came to me and said, Look, would you be interested in uh managing the clients and acquiring my practice?
• 25:43
  Marc Norris: And you know, I I I didn't plan to create a big business at that point, and it was just me, and I think I had a PA at the time and outsourced everything else.
• 25:52
  Marc Norris: And you know, I said, Well, I'm young, gonna be in this business a long time, why not start creating a bigger opportunity or bigger business for myself?
• 26:00
  Marc Norris: So, you know, with the powers that beard, SJP, we agreed on a deal, and that transaction went ahead, and the business suddenly went from you know hundred clients to probably five hundred clients.
• 26:12
  Marc Norris: Uh, and then, you know, at the same time as that happening, I actually acquired another business at the same time, which probably took me up to about 800 clients.
• 26:19
  Marc Norris: Uh, but one of the stipulations of those two transactions was I had to get some back office staff, I had to restructure the business from a partnership at the time to a limited company, and I had to bring on more advisors.
• 26:33
  Marc Norris: So my work was kind of to go out and build the infrastructure of people I wanted to work with trust, and you know, I lent a lot on a lot of friends in the early years, partners I knew at SJP who were great at what they did, but not as good at at potentially building a business and bringing on new clients, but I knew they fit really well with me.
• 26:50
  Marc Norris: Right.
• 26:50
  Marc Norris: So that's how the journey began.
• 26:53
  Marc Norris: It was kind of by accident, really.
• 26:55
  Marc Norris: I kind of fell into being a big business owner.
• 26:57
  Sam Oakes: Well, interesting, because you said at the beginning when you joined uh St James's Place, you'd never built a business plan.
• 27:03
  Sam Oakes: So many years later, I don't know how many years it was, three or four, five maybe years later, you all of a sudden of acquiring businesses.
• 27:10
  Sam Oakes: I think from not knowing, not ever building a business plan to all of a sudden being an acquirer of businesses.
• 27:16
  Sam Oakes: That wouldn't have happened, I take it, if you were out in the world on your own trying to build a financial advice business.
• 27:21
  Marc Norris: No, absolutely not.
• 27:22
  Marc Norris: I think the support you get for acquiring these businesses, you know, both on the monetary side, the due diligence, um, the support once that transaction has happened, the integration is fantastic, you know.
• 27:37
  Marc Norris: And those are areas in the kind of outside world I would have had to employ people to do and fill, and the big cost that comes attached to that.
• 27:45
  Marc Norris: So there's a lot of support that goes on internally to support these acquirers and obviously people that are retiring.
• 27:51
  Marc Norris: So I think that was kind of fundamental.
• 27:54
  Marc Norris: Um yeah, and and also I think we we had a very different model where we tried to acquire businesses where we could add a value to clients because at the end of the day, it's all about servicing your clients very well, advising them, planning with them, and adding value.
• 28:09
  Marc Norris: And you know, no zero disrespect to anyone out there who is retiring, but you know, people do end up getting a bit complacent and maybe not keeping up with the times on what's new, what's happening, what we can do to add value to clients.
• 28:23
  Marc Norris: And you know, a big big tool that came out in 2018.
• 28:26
  Marc Norris: Well, it was new to me at the time, was cash flow modelling and voyant.
• 28:29
  Marc Norris: So we were quite an early adopter, I'd say, for SJP and in cash flow modeling.
• 28:34
  Marc Norris: Our promise to all our clients was we will offer every single client a cash flow model, regardless of size of client.
• 28:39
  Marc Norris: And that was probably the most powerful tool when I integrated these businesses because they'd never seen one, they'd never done one because it wasn't a big thing in the industry then, and that helped us secure a lot more businesses off the businesses we purchased.
• 28:55
  Sam Oakes: I love that.
• 28:56
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, very, very cool.
• 28:58
  Sam Oakes: So uh how many people have you got working for you now?
• 29:01
  Marc Norris: Uh well, we've just made a couple more hires.
• 29:03
  Marc Norris: So we're around 38 people.
• 29:06
  Sam Oakes: Okay, so approaching 40.
• 29:07
  Marc Norris: Yeah, approaching 40, yeah.
• 29:09
  Sam Oakes: You strike me as somebody who's always been quite very independent.
• 29:12
  Sam Oakes: You're a hunter, you're in a you're a relationship man, you you you seek opportunities by the sounds of it.
• 29:16
  Sam Oakes: You're driven by that kind of dopamine rush to build, right?
• 29:19
  Sam Oakes: And to grow and to meet people and to seek out the deal.
• 29:22
  Sam Oakes: But that's how you kind of strike me.
• 29:23
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 29:24
  Sam Oakes: Going from that to then having 40 people in your business nearly, uh must have been some must have been a bit wobbly at times, maybe, or were there areas where all of a sudden you thought, hang on, like I I've not built a team before?
• 29:37
  Sam Oakes: How did you cope with that?
• 29:39
  Sam Oakes: Because not everybody is meant to build a team, not everybody is meant to manage.
• 29:44
  Sam Oakes: What was your biggest learning experience during that period, and how did you deal with it to be able to be happy in the role that you were the most happiest in?
• 29:52
  Marc Norris: Yeah, I think building a business is is is like a roller coaster of emotions.
• 29:56
  Marc Norris: You have your ups and downs, you have your good days, you have your bad days.
• 29:59
  Marc Norris: And you know, I'm I I I love the client work.
• 30:03
  Marc Norris: I really do.
• 30:03
  Marc Norris: I'm very technical, I'm very good at solving problems, but I also love the strategy side of running and growing a business.
• 30:11
  Marc Norris: I'm also very good at that.
• 30:12
  Marc Norris: And you often get caught between these two places on what you love more.
• 30:16
  Marc Norris: And honestly, there's not one I love more.
• 30:18
  Marc Norris: I love them both the same.
• 30:19
  Marc Norris: So we've had to employ people who can really support what I do, who are embedded on our vision and our journey on on how we're going to grow this business and what it means to us, you know, finding the right advisors that can deal with your stuff, you know, and fortunately, we've been quite good on the advisor side.
• 30:38
  Marc Norris: You know, we've lost one in the last 10 years, and that was more a different of personalities than anything else.
• 30:43
  Marc Norris: And she was fantastic, just not the right fit for our business and our culture and our vision, and that's that's fine.
• 30:49
  Marc Norris: And staff members, you know, a couple of them have been with me since not quite day one, but probably 2017, and they've been integral to the business growth.
• 30:59
  Marc Norris: You know, one of them now has gone from my PA to practice manager to ops director, so there's been that real progression in the in the business, and and one of the other guys leads the technical team, and they've helped me, they've helped me employ people, they've helped me select personalities that maybe fit with me but don't fit with the whole business.
• 31:17
  Marc Norris: So I think having the right support and the right people behind you can really help.
• 31:22
  Marc Norris: This is quite a lonely business when you do it on yourself, but actually when you've got like-minded individuals that buy into your vision, your culture, your plans, it's a lot easier.
• 31:34
  Sam Oakes: You mentioned PA to operational director.
• 31:37
  Marc Norris: Yep.
• 31:37
  Sam Oakes: So that person stayed with you for for since the beginning, right?
• 31:41
  Sam Oakes: And it sounds like always been in a position of organization and support.
• 31:44
  Sam Oakes: How important was that higher in the beginning in respect of your actual development as a business and yourself?
• 31:49
  Marc Norris: Well, it was it was more at the time.
• 31:51
  Marc Norris: I was looking uh for a PA, and a friend of mine uh just happened to be between jobs.
• 31:56
  Marc Norris: And in fact, she was at the Ombudsman at the time as a adjudicator, so quite organized, knew the industry a little bit.
• 32:02
  Marc Norris: Her mother was quite high up at the Ombudsman, and said, Look, do you fancy a change and do you want to come and work with me?
• 32:07
  Marc Norris: And we got on very well, and she did.
• 32:09
  Marc Norris: Uh, and she's probably the person who knows my business better than anyone, apart from my FD now who who who knows the business inside out from a financial perspective, she knows it from an ops perspective.
• 32:20
  Marc Norris: And so, as she has grown with the business from kind of humble beginnings to a small financial advisory practice to being involved in those business purchases, those acquisitions, client acquisitions, staff acquisitions, you know, she's helped mould and shape what we need as a business.
• 32:37
  Marc Norris: So initially, she kind of led as a practice director the admin and advice team, uh, sorry, the admin team and the technical team, and I was always in charge of the advice team.
• 32:47
  Marc Norris: Um, and you know, we've tried to find someone to kind of solve the advice team side for me as in sales director or commercial director, but a couple of hires hasn't quite worked out, so that's kind of a piece of the puzzle we're looking to solve at the moment.
• 33:04
  Sam Oakes: Why do you think that's uh been a struggle?
• 33:07
  Marc Norris: Um, why has it been a struggle?
• 33:10
  Marc Norris: It's it you know, it's finding the right person that understands our industry.
• 33:13
  Marc Norris: Now, there's a lot of people out there who have done commercial roles, sales management roles in in other industries, but actually understanding the advice process, understanding the compliance side, the regulation side, understanding the people side.
• 33:29
  Marc Norris: You know, I think an advisor wears many hats, and so you've got to have someone who knows all the hats they're wearing.
• 33:35
  Marc Norris: So, you know, ideally at the moment we're looking for someone who has potentially been an advisor, who has done very well for themselves, who's maybe gone into a more managerial career afterwards.
• 33:43
  Marc Norris: Um easier said than done, but we're getting there.
• 33:47
  Marc Norris: Uh but yeah, that's that's probably the main reason is understanding what we do and how we do it.
• 33:52
  Sam Oakes: And also has their finger on the pulse.
• 33:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 33:54
  Sam Oakes: Understands what's going on at the c at the moment as well, the changes that happen in technology and everything.
• 33:57
  Sam Oakes: You don't really want somebody who's kind of had their career and then go, oh, sit back and be a manager now.
• 34:01
  Sam Oakes: It doesn't quite work that way.
• 34:02
  Sam Oakes: You want somebody who's driven to be a manager and who's all got their finger on the pulse and wants the business to grow, but is dedicated to being a manager.
• 34:09
  Sam Oakes: And then there's the other part, player manager.
• 34:11
  Sam Oakes: You don't really maybe want that player manager because you've got one foot in that camp, one foot in the other camp.
• 34:15
  Sam Oakes: And I've seen that pull sales managers apart.
• 34:18
  Sam Oakes: You know, they're so stressed in one space over here trying to make money from themselves with their own clients, and then also at the same time trying to drive the business forward and manage people, whilst also maybe taking a kickback on the performance of these individuals as well.
• 34:30
  Sam Oakes: So you kind of want somebody 100% in the right role that wants to do it, and there's evidence and proven to do it.
• 34:36
  Sam Oakes: Worth their waiting gold mate sales managers.
• 34:39
  Sam Oakes: Like if you can find a really good one, you're away.
• 34:42
  Marc Norris: And it is a struggle to find.
• 34:43
  Marc Norris: You know, we find a lot of people at the moment who want to wear two hats.
• 34:46
  Marc Norris: Yes.
• 34:46
  Marc Norris: Uh, and that's that's a challenge.
• 34:48
  Marc Norris: We're also finding people who, you know, we are a fast-moving industry in terms of AI technology, I think using AI to support the advice journey, both for advisor and client.
• 34:58
  Marc Norris: And you either get someone who doesn't understand that journey, who maybe doesn't quite buy into that, or has no experience in that.
• 35:07
  Marc Norris: Um, and then it's also we are a very fast-moving practice.
• 35:11
  Marc Norris: You know, we've grown hugely in the last year, the year before, the year before that.
• 35:15
  Marc Norris: So we've got to have somebody who's got that same drive, same ambition, can cope with it, can cope with the stresses.
• 35:22
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 35:22
  Marc Norris: Um and again, that's that's easier said than done, right?
• 35:26
  Marc Norris: To find someone.
• 35:27
  Sam Oakes: And also that are going to be, I think, financially rewarded.
• 35:30
  Sam Oakes: So both in the short, medium, and long term.
• 35:33
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 35:33
  Sam Oakes: I think there has to be a mechanism, there has to be something in place that is like you're here for the long term, this is what you're gonna get.
• 35:38
  Sam Oakes: But in the medium and short, this is what you're gonna get as well.
• 35:40
  Sam Oakes: Because if they come from a sales background or they come from an advice background, whatever it might well be, they are used to probably managing their own levels of income.
• 35:48
  Sam Oakes: And they are still going to be driven by an idea of how much they can actually earn.
• 35:52
  Sam Oakes: So I think it's really, really important that there is a clear blueprint that is realistic and pays well to keep them really, really interested.
• 36:00
  Sam Oakes: And there are those wins, whether it's quarterly, whether it's monthly, whether it's yearly, and obviously are they part of any kind of long-term incentive plan, an L tip or something along those lines, or even equity if you find the right person.
• 36:13
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 36:13
  Sam Oakes: And also one thing I would say is like somebody who's very good at managing and has been around a bit knows really good people.
• 36:21
  Sam Oakes: And if they are well respected, people will come and work for them.
• 36:24
  Sam Oakes: So all of a sudden they become amazing talent attraction tools as well.
• 36:28
  Sam Oakes: So that's well worth taking consideration as well.
• 36:30
  Sam Oakes: I think is like, has that person got a decent network?
• 36:32
  Sam Oakes: Are they likable?
• 36:33
  Sam Oakes: Are they willing to put themselves out there as well?
• 36:35
  Sam Oakes: Because all of a sudden you've got somebody that can draw new talent into your business also.
• 36:40
  Marc Norris: Yeah, and and that we understand that.
• 36:41
  Marc Norris: And I think we are on a very strong growth journey at the moment.
• 36:45
  Marc Norris: So, you know, ultimately we want someone to step into a board role eventually, you know, and and that will probably come with incentive plans, you know, equity, whatever that looks like, growth equity.
• 36:57
  Marc Norris: Uh, so I think we understand that we're trying to find the right person, you know, that network's quite important for us and actually attracting talent, being an advocate for the business as well.
• 37:06
  Marc Norris: Uh, and we've we've you know, we've solved the kind of operations side and the finance side.
• 37:12
  Marc Norris: This is the last piece of the puzzle on the on the board side that we're trying to solve at the moment.
• 37:15
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, you're not the only one.
• 37:16
  Sam Oakes: You know, everyone's out there trying to look for that individual as well.
• 37:20
  Sam Oakes: So you're not you're definitely not the only one.
• 37:21
  Sam Oakes: It's just getting out there.
• 37:22
  Sam Oakes: I think you need to be out there more as an individual yourself, talking about your business because you come across so well, and I think people would be drawn to want to work for you.
• 37:29
  Sam Oakes: The more you elevate yourself out there as the front face of your business, yeah, the more people are going to be drawn to you anyway.
• 37:36
  Sam Oakes: Because they'll start to look at you and go, I like the cut of this jib.
• 37:39
  Sam Oakes: I would like to go and work for him.
• 37:41
  Sam Oakes: So you might find off the back of this podcast people listening to it, you might get a few people come coming in and offer you a job.
• 37:46
  Marc Norris: Might offer you the sales manager job.
• 37:48
  Sam Oakes: Oh, there we go.
• 37:49
  Sam Oakes: Job done.
• 37:50
  Sam Oakes: There we go, job done.
• 37:51
  Sam Oakes: Right.
• 37:51
  Sam Oakes: So let's just quickly, I want to talk about um, I do want to talk about niching down on clients because throughout your career you have jumped into different kinds of niches.
• 38:01
  Sam Oakes: Now there is one, private equity.
• 38:03
  Sam Oakes: Tell us a little bit about that niche and how you've kind of developed that and what's the opportunity perhaps in uh private equity without giving the game away.
• 38:09
  Sam Oakes: Everyone be running after your uh running after your niche.
• 38:11
  Sam Oakes: But is there a niche there?
• 38:12
  Sam Oakes: Is it exciting?
• 38:13
  Sam Oakes: Are you are you dipping into it?
• 38:15
  Marc Norris: Yeah, look, I think there's a niche in in, you know, typically with private equity, a lot of the managers in private equity tend to be self-employed, partners, uh LPs on their funds.
• 38:24
  Marc Norris: So, you know, there's always a world where we find an in with them in terms of what benefits do you not get now.
• 38:32
  Marc Norris: You know, you're not employed, and that could be anything from protection, it could be pensions, it could be organizing their finances, their mortgage, their tax planning.
• 38:42
  Marc Norris: Uh, and that that's the same whether they're a law partner, you know, it doesn't matter, it's just the partnership motto.
• 38:47
  Marc Norris: I think a lot of people have this misconception of private equity that they know everything about finances because they're in the investment world.
• 38:55
  Marc Norris: Uh, but actually they do a lot of corporate finance, they pick a lot of businesses and investments that they would invest in as a firm and tend to neglect their personal finances.
• 39:04
  Marc Norris: Uh, and we've helped a lot of PE managers structure funds.
• 39:09
  Marc Norris: So if they are personally investing in a company or typically in their own funds that have a 10-year life cycle, we help structure those investments for them.
• 39:17
  Marc Norris: And we do that on offshore.
• 39:18
  Marc Norris: We can do that with family investment companies, and it's it's more of a tax play for them and kind of flexibility for their family, and you know, depending on where they're going to end up in the future.
• 39:28
  Marc Norris: Can they maybe encash those tax efficiently or tax-free?
• 39:32
  Marc Norris: Uh, so we found the structure side of it is has worked very well.
• 39:36
  Marc Norris: You know, we're not teaching them about investments, we're not telling them what to buy and how to buy it, they're doing that themselves.
• 39:42
  Marc Norris: We're just providing them the structures to be able to do it.
• 39:45
  Marc Norris: And there's very limited people that can do that.
• 39:47
  Marc Norris: Yes, lawyers can do it and some sort of tax accountant, but rarely someone can do it who can also manage their personal finances, their family's personal finances.
• 39:57
  Marc Norris: So that's been a very kind of good niche for us, but also helping with things like their mortgages and their investments and debt.
• 40:05
  Marc Norris: You know, when these people are buying things, they're buying things that are usually very expensive.
• 40:09
  Marc Norris: And, you know, when they're taking debt, it's usually quite a lot of debt.
• 40:12
  Marc Norris: So, again, there's very specialist lenders and specialist finance houses that can do that for these people, you know, way outside the norm, and that's kind of where we found a real uh I suppose niche in in working with these guys and girls.
• 40:27
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, I love it.
• 40:28
  Sam Oakes: So you've done really, really well, really quickly.
• 40:30
  Sam Oakes: Okay, you've scaled quite fast.
• 40:32
  Sam Oakes: What's your goal for the next five years?
• 40:33
  Sam Oakes: Are you is it is it grow, grow, grow, grow, grow?
• 40:35
  Sam Oakes: What's in your mindset?
• 40:37
  Marc Norris: Yeah, look, we we so every year now what we do is we update our business plan um and then we review it on a quarterly basis.
• 40:45
  Marc Norris: Uh, the plan for the next five years, we'd like to double or triple the size of the company in five years, and that will be through organic growth or introducer relationships, uh, strategic purchases for the business across probably you know everywhere from Birmingham down.
• 41:02
  Marc Norris: We're you know, that's the model we're operating at the moment.
• 41:04
  Marc Norris: A lot of my advisors are in the south or in the surrounding counties of London, so that's the kind of goal for the business.
• 41:11
  Marc Norris: And yeah, continue to be a hub where clients can thrive, where they get value, where we can advise well, and we we really want to kind of expand that skill set.
• 41:21
  Marc Norris: We want to create our own private client division in 12 and start dealing with a lot more high net worths, and you know, private equity form will form part of that, definitely.
• 41:29
  Marc Norris: But there'll be other niches that we're looking to move into.
• 41:31
  Marc Norris: You're almost like a mini family office, like we talked about at the start.
• 41:35
  Marc Norris: You know, there's a very, you know, there's a there's a bucket of family offices that sit in the kind of hundred to five billion mark, you know, and then there's a uh an area of kind of micro family offices between probably four million and ten where they don't get the same level of service as maybe a family office would.
• 41:51
  Marc Norris: That's an area we're looking to kind of press into.
• 41:54
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, it's a huge opportunity.
• 41:54
  Sam Oakes: I know quite a few people who are developing stuff in that space, uh, and it is a massive opportunity.
• 42:00
  Sam Oakes: So you're definitely in the right ballpark without it.
• 42:01
  Sam Oakes: Well, you know it.
• 42:02
  Sam Oakes: Uh there is a huge opportunity there.
• 42:04
  Sam Oakes: Um let's just like review that you've had a fantastic, you've had a fantastic career so far.
• 42:10
  Sam Oakes: You know, it sounds great, and it sounds like you're full of energy, uh, enthusiastic.
• 42:13
  Sam Oakes: Uh aiming for that one billion mark, I believe.
• 42:16
  Marc Norris: Yep.
• 42:17
  Marc Norris: How quickly?
• 42:18
  Marc Norris: Well, look, I it's we've modelled this, and I think we can do it in about four years.
• 42:22
  Marc Norris: Um, I'd like to think we can probably do it in three.
• 42:26
  Marc Norris: You know, the the the four-year model was there was a few assumptions in there, obviously, but that was not assuming any acquisitions to the to the business.
• 42:35
  Marc Norris: Now we're acquiring at the moment, we're looking for partnerships and purchases that that align with exactly what we want in locations we want, where we can add value to maybe clients that haven't had necessarily the level of value they should have.
• 42:48
  Marc Norris: Uh so I'd love to do it in three years.
• 42:51
  Sam Oakes: Listening to you, I've obviously chatted to you before anyway, prices podcast.
• 42:55
  Sam Oakes: One of the things that I I'm not just saying this because I'm on a St.
• 42:58
  Sam Oakes: James's Place, you know, partnership podcast episode.
• 43:02
  Sam Oakes: You definitely have benefited from being part of the partnership.
• 43:06
  Sam Oakes: Like there's certain things that you said along the way on your journey that I don't think if you had the infrastructure or the ecosystem would have accelerated you so quickly.
• 43:14
  Sam Oakes: Am I way off the mark, or is it all you?
• 43:19
  Marc Norris: No, absolutely not.
• 43:20
  Marc Norris: Um, I you know, we've we've got an we we have uh uh an infrastructure at SJP that allows us to lean on a lot of areas for support and help.
• 43:32
  Marc Norris: You know, in the early years, that was the trainers, it was the people that supported me through the academy, you know, post academy, it was the technical team at head office, had Chris Ralph, who used to do a few meetings for me and you know, support me in those really big client meetings that maybe I wasn't as confident to do in my early years.
• 43:50
  Marc Norris: And actually, a couple of those clients came on board and they're still fantastic clients today.
• 43:54
  Marc Norris: When I do acquisitions, you know, the finance department have been amazing and helped create models, you know, for what good lux looks like when you're when you're purchasing business and how that model fits in with our business, how you know we're looking to fundamentally increase our e-bit dial, we're looking to grow the business and actually how can we do strategic purchases that align with that?
• 44:15
  Marc Norris: You know, yes, client numbers matter, funds under management matter, but but but what does good look like from a business relative to us?
• 44:22
  Marc Norris: They've been absolutely amazing in that on the due diligence side, they've they've they've helped with accountants, they've helped with legal teams, and I just think the you know, everything down to kind of tax and technical.
• 44:33
  Marc Norris: When you've got a problem, and you know, I'm not afraid to say to a client, listen, Mr.
• 44:37
  Marc Norris: Client, I don't know, but I'll know in the next half an hour if you let me make a call, I'll make a call, get a get a get a response from tax and technical, and I go back to the client.
• 44:44
  Marc Norris: It's fantastic, and the support you get for growing a business in that framework, I think is brilliant.
• 44:50
  Sam Oakes: No, I well you've you've done a really good job of explaining that, and I think on this podcast episode is to hear that you, you know, to come from the state agency background and to now have uh you know half billion under management within a short period of time.
• 45:03
  Sam Oakes: You there is talent within you, you can sense it.
• 45:06
  Sam Oakes: You know, you've obviously got you've got it about you.
• 45:08
  Sam Oakes: You're good at relationships, you are persistent, you prospect well, you articulate yourself really, really well.
• 45:14
  Sam Oakes: I can see why people want to work with you uh and for you, and that's a massive added benefit.
• 45:19
  Sam Oakes: And I think if anybody's listening to this, look, it is a lot of the time it is about those interpersonal skills.
• 45:23
  Sam Oakes: You know, you've got to work on those interpersonal skills.
• 45:25
  Sam Oakes: One of the things I've picked up with you is that you're not afraid to pick the phone up and talk to people.
• 45:29
  Sam Oakes: And the only way you're going to get better in life is by speaking to people, whether that's face-to-face, whether that's running an event.
• 45:34
  Sam Oakes: How many times did you fail?
• 45:36
  Sam Oakes: This is the bit we're not talking about.
• 45:37
  Sam Oakes: The fact that you probably failed numerous times until you found some sweet spots.
• 45:41
  Sam Oakes: And when you found the sweet spot, you lent into the sweet spot and you went even deeper and deeper and deeper.
• 45:44
  Sam Oakes: And this is the thing, you you make your own luck, don't you?
• 45:47
  Sam Oakes: You get better at interpersonal skills the more you speak to people, the more experiences that you have.
• 45:52
  Sam Oakes: But doing it on your own is hard.
• 45:55
  Sam Oakes: And um one of the things I would definitely say at 43 years old, and I've ran my recruit or had a recruitment business for 16 years, I didn't lean, I didn't ask for help enough, I didn't lean into communities of support enough.
• 46:09
  Sam Oakes: I stayed in my own head, and it definitely had a negative impact on the ability for me to grow without a shadow of a doubt.
• 46:16
  Sam Oakes: But when there's an ecosystem that is created to actually recognize when you need the support and probably reach out to you as well as you reaching out to them, it's like having a bloody good gardener, isn't it?
• 46:28
  Marc Norris: Yeah, and you know, yes, I've made a lot of mistakes along the way, and you know, there's been some some some big ones, you know, when I've when I've when I've done things wrong, you know, maybe I did a pitch that didn't work, and you know, I've learned from all of those things.
• 46:43
  Marc Norris: And you know, I've looked at businesses in the past to acquire and I've missed out on them, but actually in hindsight was probably, you know, my due diligence, but actually has been a a blessing for me.
• 46:52
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 46:53
  Marc Norris: Uh but I've had the ability to always ask for help.
• 46:57
  Sam Oakes: Yep.
• 46:57
  Marc Norris: And I think, you know, whether that's from the partnership and people who have trodden your path, whether that's from successful businesses, you know, clients who have become who are business owners who've got very successful businesses.
• 47:09
  Marc Norris: I always get a view externally from financial, you know, what do you do that's very successful?
• 47:13
  Marc Norris: I've had clients who are CEOs of companies, big listed businesses in in the UK and US.
• 47:19
  Marc Norris: I've asked them, you know, what is the what's the recipe for success?
• 47:23
  Marc Norris: What do you do that's been very successful?
• 47:24
  Marc Norris: Because you're obviously a really successful guy.
• 47:26
  Marc Norris: And normally when I ask clients that there, and and I'd say, how would you build a business if if you were me?
• 47:31
  Marc Norris: And they'll say, Don't worry, I'll just refer you to a few mates.
• 47:33
  Marc Norris: And I'm like, Thank you very much.
• 47:35
  Marc Norris: And you know, if you don't ask, you don't get.
• 47:37
  Marc Norris: So I've always been very forthcoming with people.
• 47:39
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Marc Norris: I've always picked up the phone.
• 47:41
  Marc Norris: You know, I had this thing when I was starting out, and I ever once a month, I'd just text a client and just say, How are you?
• 47:46
  Marc Norris: Any anything you need help with.
• 47:47
  Marc Norris: And occasionally, it wasn't often, but I'd get a text back saying, Need to meet you.
• 47:52
  Marc Norris: I've got some money, I need to do something with.
• 47:54
  Marc Norris: Can you help?
• 47:54
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 47:55
  Marc Norris: And I think it's, you know, as we said at the start of this, a relationship business.
• 47:59
  Marc Norris: You're in, you know, you're talking to be you're looking after one of the most important parts of someone's life.
• 48:04
  Marc Norris: You know, it's their their goals, their plans, their financial future.
• 48:08
  Marc Norris: So you've got to treat that with respect.
• 48:10
  Marc Norris: And, you know, you should be touching base with your clients very regularly to reassess that.
• 48:16
  Sam Oakes: We get a lot of young individuals thinking about becoming financial planners, people considering coming into the profession, maybe they're making a career transition.
• 48:23
  Sam Oakes: What's the one bit of advice you would say to them to be a success within financial planning?
• 48:28
  Marc Norris: Well, there might not be one, but yeah, I'd say find a good mentor, find someone who has trod this path.
• 48:34
  Marc Norris: I think in the early years, it's going to be very difficult to ascertain whether you're going to treat this as a lifestyle business or a company that you're going to build and grow.
• 48:43
  Marc Norris: But I'd say speak to as many successful people as you possibly can about yourself, what make what makes you a good person in the sense of relationship building, because the rest you can learn.
• 48:54
  Marc Norris: You can learn pensions and tax and investments and structures and protection and mortgages.
• 49:00
  Marc Norris: But actually, if you haven't got the attributes to be a good business owner or uh uh you know grow a company, it might not be the right path because it is very, very difficult.
• 49:12
  Sam Oakes: Yeah.
• 49:12
  Marc Norris: You know, and that's why a lot of people now in this industry are joining advice and joining firms because they can go out, they can advise, they can be that relationship person, but don't have to worry about the stresses of growing that company.
• 49:23
  Sam Oakes: Yeah, makes total sense.
• 49:24
  Sam Oakes: As a stat, I think it's 70% of the people that are going through the St.
• 49:27
  Sam Oakes: James's Place Academy now go into advisor roles as opposed to running their own partner practices.
• 49:31
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 49:31
  Sam Oakes: So obviously there's a growing need and demand for that, and people are leaning into that.
• 49:34
  Sam Oakes: And obviously, it sounds to me like the ecosystem is being able to support those people to do exactly that, is to go and do the bit of the job maybe that they're best suited to.
• 49:40
  Sam Oakes: Because not everybody needs to run their own business.
• 49:42
  Sam Oakes: And I think social media, this kind of idea that everyone should be running their own businesses, has been a bit toxic over the last few years.
• 49:47
  Sam Oakes: It's put a lot of pressure on people.
• 49:48
  Sam Oakes: You're not a success unless you're running your own business.
• 49:50
  Marc Norris: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:51
  Sam Oakes: And it's like, well, not everybody needs to run their own business, and actually running your own business can not can be quite horrible at times.
• 49:58
  Marc Norris: Oh, exactly right.
• 49:59
  Marc Norris: And and you know, when when I joined the academy, I think it was more you know the other way, 80% of people went out and became single partners.
• 50:06
  Marc Norris: Yeah.
• 50:06
  Marc Norris: And actually, from my cohort, there aren't many of the guys left out on their own.
• 50:11
  Marc Norris: You know, there's probably only a couple of us.
• 50:13
  Marc Norris: And you know, I think the world we're in at the moment with compliance regulation, you know, servicing seeing your clients, I think it's made it harder to become a business owner from day one.
• 50:24
  Marc Norris: Now, to do that with a client bank, you've got to have the infrastructure in place.
• 50:29
  Marc Norris: So there's no harm in someone joining a uh a practice for a few years, really understanding the nuts and bolts of how a business is run, how you service, see your clients, the regulatory environment, and then spinning out and starting their business.
• 50:41
  Marc Norris: You know, I've seen some very successful partners who have started their journey in a practice, come out of a practice and build some of the most fantastic businesses I've ever seen.
• 50:50
  Marc Norris: Yeah, fantastic.
• 50:51
  Sam Oakes: Mark, listen, thank you so much for sharing your career journey with us on uh Financial Planner Life today.
• 50:55
  Sam Oakes: Um it sounds like it's it's not slowing down, um, and obviously we wish you all the success.
• 50:59
  Marc Norris: Thank you.
• 51:00
  Marc Norris: Thank you for having me.