Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (2/4)

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Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (2/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None. Hamster with a blunt penknife
• 0:35
  for doing. Quicker, quicker.
• 0:39
  Quicker Hello and welcome to Hamster with a Blunt Penknife,
• 0:42
  the Doctor Who Commentary Podcast.
• 0:44
  I'm sitting here with Joe today and we are about to go back into
• 0:49
  the Myth Makers for some small profit quick return, which is a
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  delicious pun and the only one they were allowed to use.
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  Oh. Really, it would have been a
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  crime to take it out, wouldn't it?
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  I think that was the only one that Donald Tosh was prepared to
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  fight for because it was the BBC higher ups that didn't like any
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  of the pun titles and this was the one was like, well, we're
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  going to keep one of them. I was like, OK, this is a good
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  one. It is a very UN Doctor Who
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  episode title. It's like don't shoot the
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  pianist. It's such an A typical title.
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  Are holidays for the doctor? And that and that is a fun
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  that's such a great pun on so many levels.
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  I love it. I you you can't take it too
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  seriously. I think there's always a risk
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  that if you start taking it seriously, it starts getting
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  boring. Well, take the myth makers on
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  the gunfighters. Out of season three, you've got
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  a very serious season. I think, well, the next fun
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  story after that is probably the arc.
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  Sporadically fun, I would say. And possibly not intentionally
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  either. It can be very.
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  Earnest at times as well. So sure, we're hanging out in
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  the security kitchen. See, that's one of those things
• 2:02
  where it's like, is someone taking the piss?
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  When they wrote that, was that genuine?
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  No. We're going to have a.
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  Security kitchen? No, that's where I lock up my
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  half or half. Now you know when he pisses me
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  off? Get in the kitchen.
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  The security kitchen. Come on.
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  If nothing else, the art gave us the security kitchen, and we
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  should be grateful for that. We should.
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  We should. But Donald Cotton gave us two
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  fabulous comic adventures. And yeah, we're we're about to
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  go about to go into Troy, right? To meet the Troy Royal family.
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  Yeah, King Pratt. So the the Royal family and the
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  comedy continues and we get Harris who it's an interesting
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  character because what are they trying to suggest about Paris?
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  He's a total queen, is what he is.
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  This is one of those ones where it would be really interesting
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  to see how bad it is physically, see how Barringham played it,
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  because there is certain points in the dialogue where it's like
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  he is camping this up. That's Alleton from the The
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  Peter Cushing movie, isn't it? It is and he does turn up in
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  episode of Star Trek TNG. No.
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  Which one? The dreadful Irish episode.
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  Oh no, not up the long ladder. He's in up the long ladder.
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  He's the leader of the Bring Lloyd.
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  He's the He's the Irish. Girls.
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  So it's hit or miss. Then is is Paul Ray's into genre
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  television? Yes, I think this is probably
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  one of the best odds. He's not bad in the Dalek film,
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  he's just barely in it. He's great.
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  Do you remember the bit of this, where he's going?
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  Yeah, come. On out and fight me.
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  He's whispering. He's comes out and he's like.
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  That's how I'll do it, you know. Oh no, I don't actually have a
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  hand to hand with anyone. Oh, so funny.
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  I think all now this is where the mythic is really kicks off
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  for me. I did like a little, yeah, a
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  little trip to the Greeks and we'll do go back there quite a
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  bit, but all the stuff in Troy is just gorgeous.
• 4:02
  Shall we? How dare you suggest that?
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  That's that's that's almost understated in comparison to
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  what Francis White's about to give.
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  Us You will reign terrors upon us all, David.
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  You'll be burned as a traitor heretic and a spy.
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  Well, one of them at least. He put all those twigs.
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  Around the TARDIS she starts like scattering oil over it,
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  then it to burn it. Oh, she's.
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  Mad as a box of frogs. OK, oh, sorry, I've got counters
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  in, haven't I? You've got counters in.
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  OK, so see how much fun we're having with this look.
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  It hasn't even started yet. It hasn't started, not moving
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  yet. In 54321, off we go is it?
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  What? Do you know what a bootstrap
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  paradox is? It's oh, yeah, See, I know of it
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  because it's what Capaldi talks about at the start.
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  Or we does the whole Beethoven thing.
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  So it's basically the person who went back in time and became
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  Beethoven because Beethoven all existed.
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  So it's basically the doctor creates the Trojan horse because
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  the Trojan horse was the myth. Yeah, so this is a bootstrap
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  paradox, isn't it? Pretty much, I mean.
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  I think it doesn't talk about. I think I've seen.
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  I've seen couples say Oh yeah deal it's got bootstrap,
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  bootstrap, paradox in. It's not played like that at
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  all. It's it's not mention time
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  paradoxes and everything. It's just more oh, the horse was
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  an invention of Homer and all nonsense oh bugger.
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  I better invent it and and don't think they could dwell on the
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  idea that it's it's it's a paradox at all, and I don't
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  think we're even even invited to think about that.
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  It's just. Or we're not even invited to
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  think about the fact that all of this.
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  Bloody murder is the Doctor's. Fault in this.
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  Is the Doctor responsible for a massacre?
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  Yes. Yes, and it's all because he's
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  like, oh shit, I've got to think of something.
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  I. Can't think of anything, right?
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  Let's do the Trojan Horse. And yeah, there's an essay in
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  that basically, you know, things the Doctor does and the the
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  people who die as a result. But again, you could say if this
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  is a this is a strap paradox, it was always going to happen.
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  He's just that's true. No, no, he's still helping it
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  happen. I like to think that Homer, like
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  in the book, is somewhere on the periphery of these scenes.
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  Writing it all down, You know going this is going to make a
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  great epic one day I. Think it was in one of the the
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  sort of original storylines or something.
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  I think Homer was going to be in it originally, but I think they
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  dropped that quite quickly because I think historically
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  Homer comes a bit later. So no doubt you'd have you'd
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  have people writing and saying this.
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  Well, this is wrong. Well, I mean, it is anyway.
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  It is interesting to be dramatising what is effectively
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  A myth rather than an established period of history
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  and. They kind of make a bit of that,
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  but then they kind of don't. It's kind of presented as kind
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  of history and they touch on oh Homer and the myths and
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  everything, but they don't kind of club you over the head with
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  it. It's still presented as a bit of
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  a humorous historical, but still presented in the same sort of
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  style of as historical. We're about to get some moving
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  footage, I think. Oh, that's right.
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  Very brief I. Think it's when we cut back to
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  this scene and he says, Oh yeah, the Doctor miscalculated again.
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  Just another miscalculation by the doctor.
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  And if you noticed, I'm starting to do this sort of microscopic
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  examination of these video clips now, just like you, the camera
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  pulls away as the scene starts and I'm thinking, OK, so he's
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  moving the camera. He's got, well, what a wonderful
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  segue to some of the research I've been doing because please,
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  and let's say this is this, this.
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  I started doing this, then read the Black Archive and they said
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  exactly the same thing. So we came at this
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  independently, but no one will believe me.
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  So when you've got camera scripts, So I'm going to assume
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  people go, what the Hell's a camera script?
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  A camera script is basically what they used to determine the
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  shots of each episode. So it's and most of the camera
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  scripts really can tell you what type of shot it is.
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  Is it a long shot, medium slot, close up and so on and all the
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  shots are numbered? So how do you know if they stuck
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  to the camera script? You don't unless you've got.
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  You just assume. That you have to assume that
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  this is what they planned. This is what they would have
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  taken to the studio. There may be some variations,
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  but generally this is kind of what they mapped out.
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  So let's say all the shots are numbered and across the four
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  episodes, episode one had 176 shots, 177 in episode 258 in
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  episode 3 and 93 in episode 4. So it's like, OK, what do those
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  numbers mean? Well, compared to the stories
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  around, that's about 50 or 60 shots more than the stories
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  around it. So what And when you see, you
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  can see in the camera script is they tend to cut shot to shot
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  quite quickly. So that suggests this is quite a
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  quick cut like. Edited fast for the time.
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  Quite fast for the time until you get to episode 4 and it
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  seems to slow down a little bit and that probably ties in with
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  the tone of it. So there's a suggestion.
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  I'm getting this impression that because it's all comedy and it's
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  all moving, it's moving quite quickly and you've got the one
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  liner snapping back. So this is how level the detail
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  I went. So got the episode run times.
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  Discounted all the film sequences because film sequences
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  don't have shot numbers because they're played in and worked
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  out. So this is how many shots per
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  episode this is, how long it is. So the average length.
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  The average length of a shot per episode.
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  So for episode one it's about 7 seconds on average. 8 seconds.
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  Episode 28, nearly 9312, nearly 13 seconds.
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  Episode 4. So that's how on average how
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  quick these episodes are cut. So point of comparison.
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  So airlock, which is the surviving episode nearest from
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  before it, has an average of about 14 seconds per.
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  Shot Oh, wow. OK.
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  Dave Armageddon other side and 16 seconds per shot.
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  So NASDAQ. Scanfield directs much more
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  slowly, but he moves the camera much more.
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  Because there's a lot of panning shots.
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  There's lots of view created. So what they suggested, while
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  there's a bit of movement in some of the shots, it suggests
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  it's maybe cut, cut, cut, but a little more static.
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  But it was just when they're back and forth, and when I'm
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  doing all this nonsense over Francis White, turning up, doing
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  her great, great introduction, which I imagine would have been
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  done in that way, she appears at the top of the temple set and it
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  would be cut straight to it. And there's this back and forth
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  between her and Paris. And I think that would have been
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  because that's how they are, They're having an argument and I
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  think. Pacing the comedy.
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  They're pacing the comedy and I think the camera moves and the
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  camera shots would have paced the comedy as well.
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  Are you trying to tell me, OK, that we don't have the episode,
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  We don't know how they look, but if you examine the camera
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  scripts, which tells you where the close-ups are, where the
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  medium close-ups are, where the long shots are, blah blah blah
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  blah, how long the shots are, you can effectively build up an
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  image. Especially if you've got
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  pictures of the sets and the actors and things like that.
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  You can effectively in your head, build together roughly how
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  this would have looked. You can if you have more
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  reference, So certainly with the stories of the Tele snaps and
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  we'll Marco Polo where you've got all those photos, you've got
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  a really good idea. And I know there's people who do
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  these 3D models of sets because if you've got the floor plans
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  for the studio and you've got set design photos, you can
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  render in 3D the studio. And then I think somebody's done
• 11:55
  where you can actually put where the camera would be and you can
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  almost replicate what that shot would look like.
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  So I think with time the possibility of reconstruction is
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  getting even more sophisticated just.
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  Extraordinary. You know, I never ever would
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  have thought to to piece it together like that like I have
• 12:15
  all those jigsaw pieces. But you you, and then you could
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  absolutely apply that to an animation and say right?
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  This is as close an approximation as what you can
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  get as to what was on the screen and.
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  I think that's why for some fans, super name no names that
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  struggle with the animations because they're going with my
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  why aren't you using the camera scripts?
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  Why? You know, you've got basically a
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  list of how the shots work. I was like, well, that doesn't
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  sometimes that is harder with animation because there'll be
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  things that the script demands that the animation can't do.
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  And obviously there's all the things that they they're making
• 12:49
  them as new productions and so and they expand them.
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  But I think there are times when we were talking about, you know,
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  you can tell the difference between location and studio, you
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  can hear the difference. And I think sometimes you can
• 13:01
  hear the difference when it's a long shot and when it's close.
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  And I think that's sometimes with animations it takes me out
• 13:07
  of it going well. You've got a close up of them in
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  the animation, but they sound far away from the camera.
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  What I will say, and this is in no way to denigrate your
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  character and the fabulous archaeology that you're doing
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  here, is that I think the the bulk of the audience aren't
• 13:22
  thinking like that and they just want to watch a a bit of telly.
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  And and that is why it is very handy to have my husband in the
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  room because he doesn't know. Shut up, David.
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  And he's basically saying, don't you just enjoy it?
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  Oh, I love you, Ross, but I've never even met him.
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  And it's like it was the same with with you know, with the the
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  recent specials and everything and I was like and I was like
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  just enjoy them and it's like you know what, that is the best
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  it is. And I have to remind myself it
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  is the best piece of advice is just enjoy them for what they
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  are. And so we've just had some more
• 13:56
  moving Hartnell. Footage as you saw a reaction
• 13:59
  shot from. Him that looked very funny.
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  And The thing is, so if you watch the, you know, the 8
• 14:06
  millimetre compilation on Lost in Time, they've got these two
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  clips of Hartnell here in Episode 2, but the lip sync
• 14:13
  isn't quite right. That's because these are
• 14:15
  actually clips in Episode 3. And there's a there's a bit when
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  Vicky comes out of the TARDIS, that's always kind of put his
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  Episode 2. That's actually Episode 4.
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  So because someone's got and. I I mean, I just think like,
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  that's just smile though, isn't it?
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  Just putting bits in that just give it some movement that just
• 14:34
  make it a bit more washable. Make it and makes it move and
• 14:37
  bit of. Picture of him smiling there.
• 14:40
  Max. Adrian.
• 14:41
  It's absolutely terrifying, isn't it?
• 14:43
  I wish they'd stop using it. And they use it quite a lot as
• 14:46
  well. I mean, Max Adrian, I think,
• 14:50
  yeah, I got the impression he was quite a lovey or basically
• 14:54
  because I basically said was it. The Castle crew were kind of
• 14:56
  hanging off his every word and it was obviously a proper actor.
• 15:00
  Hartnell's over there, Seething. Because it's always we we
• 15:05
  touched on very briefly Hartnell difficult character because
• 15:08
  obviously Max Adrian I believe was gay and Jewish and Hartnell
• 15:13
  allegedly homophobic and anti-Semitic.
• 15:18
  Not so great. I'll bet he sat on his.
• 15:19
  Armchair as well. And I think there's because
• 15:24
  there was a suggestion for a while.
• 15:25
  It's like, oh, the Doctor doesn't have any scenes with
• 15:26
  Prime because because of that I was like, well, I think that's
• 15:29
  because that's just how the. Script went.
• 15:33
  Because I think I've seen that as a bit of either a defence of
• 15:36
  or kind of trying to minimize some of Hartland's attitudes.
• 15:40
  And it's like. They didn't know who was going
• 15:43
  to be cast initially, did they, when the script was being
• 15:46
  written? Probably not.
• 15:47
  I mean, I know Donald Cotton wanted to bring Max Adrian
• 15:50
  across, but there's no, you know, he could have been
• 15:51
  playing, although I could have met.
• 15:52
  Can't really imagine him playing Odysseus or at.
• 15:56
  This point, the structure of the story is the doctor is with the
• 15:59
  Greeks, Vicky is with the Trojans.
• 16:02
  Have I got that the right way around.
• 16:04
  Thank God and and they're both tasked.
• 16:08
  Aren't they right? You've got to.
• 16:09
  You've got to help us stop them and you've got to get us in.
• 16:12
  And it's really, that's a lovely idea.
• 16:14
  Of the two of them, sort of playing against each other but
• 16:16
  not knowing they're doing it. And I think Stephen said that
• 16:19
  it's Vicky versus the Doctor and it's like that's such a great
• 16:22
  idea that they have to work against each other almost.
• 16:26
  And it's this scene where basically you've got Francis,
• 16:31
  what, screaming at the top of the voice.
• 16:33
  How? She will bring death and
• 16:37
  destruction. Upon all of us.
• 16:40
  The evil harpy it's not. Subtle.
• 16:43
  Oh, it's so. Funny.
• 16:45
  Though you need it. I think you need.
• 16:47
  It to be that. That sort of you've got her
• 16:50
  playing the histrionics, you've got Paris, who is, is just camp.
• 16:56
  And don't you think it's their deadpan reactions to her madness
• 17:01
  that makes it so funny? They.
• 17:02
  Just go. Oh, here she goes again.
• 17:04
  And then you've got her deadpan reactions sometimes to parrot,
• 17:08
  and then you've got primes sort of reactions to the pair of
• 17:11
  them. So it's almost like they're kind
• 17:13
  of rolling their eyes, going round every.
• 17:15
  Time. Oh, wonderful dynamic.
• 17:17
  And you know what? It's doing exactly what Russell
• 17:20
  T Davis would do. Now it's bringing this down to a
• 17:22
  family level and we get these dynamics.
• 17:26
  And they're bickering like a family.
• 17:28
  I mean, what's funny is that you've got the other brother
• 17:32
  Troyus, who's mentioned in this doesn't appear till next
• 17:36
  episode, I don't think he certainly not in the dialogue.
• 17:39
  So whether or not he would have been on film, he doesn't
• 17:43
  interact with them. He doesn't interact with Vicky
• 17:45
  till episode 3, No. Yeah, you're right.
• 17:47
  And he doesn't interact with any of his family.
• 17:49
  And it's like because he's he's he's the straight man, he's kind
• 17:52
  of, you know, he's not any of these comic extremes.
• 17:55
  He's actually quite an earnest character.
• 17:57
  He's probably the the least comedic character.
• 18:00
  In it, yeah. But we do.
• 18:02
  We need to believe in that relationship between him and
• 18:04
  Vicky, so that has to be played for Real.
• 18:08
  Do we believe in it because? I do.
• 18:10
  I think they get a couple of great scenes.
• 18:12
  It is that typical doctor thing and you know, written out at the
• 18:17
  end, running off with someone that she's only just.
• 18:21
  But they may, I think the 2nd that she's named Cressida.
• 18:25
  She's marks to leave this story. And because this is the thing
• 18:31
  with the myths, I think that we could have told just because
• 18:33
  does Cressid go off for Troy, so does she go off with Diomedeo?
• 18:38
  Diomedes, I think was the proper name, but we've got a sort of
• 18:41
  weird corruption of it. And the original plan was that
• 18:44
  we like she had to choose between Stephen or Mike.
• 18:49
  He was some reason he's called Mike in the outline.
• 18:50
  I think that was Stephen's original name.
• 18:52
  It doesn't quite work, Mike. Mike Taylor.
• 18:58
  The Doctor and Mike? No.
• 19:00
  First, any Michael's listening of.
• 19:02
  Course. Oh, Mike Yates, you know.
• 19:04
  That's a different kettle fishing time.
• 19:07
  Talking about Lovey's. He's not a lovey is.
• 19:11
  He. Oh no, she's quite a Dolly.
• 19:15
  Do you know what we that there's a bit a line there which I.
• 19:18
  Think is the funniest bit in the whole scene where she's, you
• 19:21
  know, Cassandra's going crazy again going ah.
• 19:24
  I've prophesized our doom and all of this, and Prime just
• 19:28
  goes. Look, I think she just does it
• 19:30
  to hedge her bets. Just in case something terrible.
• 19:33
  Does happen, You know, like? Ignore her.
• 19:35
  And it's such a great it just brings down.
• 19:38
  All those evangelists in one line.
• 19:41
  It's so well and he performs it so well.
• 19:44
  I think because we haven't got anything of this performance.
• 19:48
  I don't think it's talked about anywhere near enough.
• 19:50
  Is is a perfectly Max. Adrian does a perfectly pitched
• 19:55
  as does Barringham. I think Paris is the foppish and
• 20:00
  they do the it's. Hugh.
• 20:02
  Laurie from Blackadder isn't. It and it there are a couple of
• 20:07
  times they do make suggest, you know.
• 20:08
  It's like you captured A prisoner.
• 20:10
  You captured a prisoner, you know the, the, the because he's
• 20:14
  playing at camp and there's this sort of coded for anything.
• 20:17
  But there's some, some of the some of the things they say to
• 20:20
  pirates. It's like, I think we know what
• 20:23
  they're trying to say. On both the Greek and the Trojan
• 20:25
  side as well. Every time they bring in a
• 20:27
  prisoner. Or the TARDIS or whatever.
• 20:29
  Like no one's impressed, are they?
• 20:32
  There is, there is something where?
• 20:33
  It's Are you sure you didn't just get very tired?
• 20:36
  You know they got really tired and you then you just drag them
• 20:38
  here. You that you ran around the city
• 20:41
  with him three times and he just.
• 20:42
  Collapsed from being the line. Yeah, and it's the same with
• 20:46
  Paris going and because then Stephen comes in and does the
• 20:49
  whole, oh, Lion of Troy and baking Paris up and they, I
• 20:53
  think we're missing some reactions.
• 20:55
  Oh so far. And you know, the funniest joke
• 20:58
  in this whole story is fucking dock through, man.
• 21:00
  They're always captured all the time.
• 21:03
  The one time someone wants to be captured and he literally has to
• 21:07
  go through all these comic exchanges, like, for fuck's
• 21:10
  sake, just take me back, all right?
• 21:12
  Like, and again, again, there's a kind of recurring theme.
• 21:14
  He's thinking he's like, oh, I just go and get captured.
• 21:16
  Oh, hang on, no, he's about to kill me.
• 21:17
  Is it? Oh, he says the whole yield and
• 21:20
  he bigs Paris up and he plays to his ego and that just works
• 21:25
  really well because clearly he hasn't got the respect to his
• 21:28
  family and he kind of knows it. And he's got because I think he
• 21:31
  says that he's like, I get more respect from a prisoner than I
• 21:34
  do from members of my own family.
• 21:36
  It is a it's it is an unusual mix, isn't it?
• 21:38
  Because I think it is absolutely playing to the historical
• 21:42
  stereotype. It's this very ripe dialogue.
• 21:45
  There's long scenes, as we've said, but it's got the
• 21:49
  sensibilities of our modern day soap opera with its dynamics on
• 21:54
  both sides. We've said we have the scene
• 21:55
  between the two brothers where once just like, oh, you know,
• 21:59
  I'm glad my wife's gone, you know, can't we go home?
• 22:01
  And then on the other side, you've got the two, the.
• 22:03
  Brother and the sisters. Are always rubbing their eyes at
• 22:05
  each. Other and the the dad who's
• 22:07
  like, oh for God's sake, this pair.
• 22:09
  But it's so relatable. And I think that's possibly why
• 22:13
  the actors are able to get get into it more.
• 22:15
  Not just because it's human in history and relatable, but these
• 22:18
  are very normal relationships. So there's something, even
• 22:24
  though it's been played for laughs, it's like it's a sibling
• 22:26
  relationship, it's parents or brothers, and so it just works.
• 22:33
  And have we just spoken over the doctor's plan?
• 22:35
  We. Did, yeah.
• 22:38
  So the Doctor's. Great plan is to catapult people
• 22:42
  over the walls. Is it that plan?
• 22:45
  Or is it the Dart? Is it the paper dart?
• 22:46
  No, it's basically to make giant paper aeroplanes and then fix
• 22:51
  them to massive rubber bands and fire them over the.
• 22:56
  The fella goes, doesn't he? No, I don't think it's going to
• 22:59
  work. Perhaps we weren't meant to fly.
• 23:01
  Well, because the because I think Odysseus was like, well,
• 23:04
  just to make sure it works Doctor you will go first and
• 23:07
  then he's like, yeah I've got to think of something else because
• 23:10
  oh. I feel like my calculations were
• 23:11
  wrong, you know, really. Trying to sort of improvise his
• 23:15
  way out of the situation. And again, there will be a
• 23:18
  little business. He will be shifting his eyes.
• 23:20
  He'll be doing something. It'll be hilarious.
• 23:21
  I'd love to see this stuff. Just oh, now we're seeing the
• 23:25
  fight look or the not fight. The not and this will be a not
• 23:28
  fight because all the other big sword fights were done on out at
• 23:32
  French and Pons. This is in the studio so this
• 23:33
  will probably be. There'll be a bit I think
• 23:36
  there's a bit of sword play but this will probably be a little
• 23:38
  bit. I imagine a little bit pulled
• 23:40
  the. Funniest line, here is where he
• 23:42
  goes, I yield and Paris goes, oh, we really don't do that sort
• 23:45
  of thing, you know, but. It's the way he does it as well,
• 23:49
  he goes. We don't really do that.
• 23:54
  He's a bit embarrassed. Isn't he?
• 23:55
  It's like. I'm not sure I'll be able to
• 23:57
  pull that off back home, you know that I actually managed.
• 23:59
  To capture you. They all know I'm a big wimp.
• 24:02
  And so one of the pictures they got in the reconstruction here,
• 24:06
  because they've got their head faces covered, it's like, is, is
• 24:09
  that Peter purpose in the Trojan garb?
• 24:12
  Are we seeing his legs? There, there's enough to
• 24:16
  convince me and there are fine pair of legs.
• 24:18
  So we'll say yes, I know there have been a lot of flesh on
• 24:23
  display in this, David. You know, we've been quite
• 24:24
  happy. They would have been, I think
• 24:28
  because it's because there's so few photos as well there's
• 24:30
  there's characters we've got no, I think like Paris and I think
• 24:36
  Menelaus and because there's one of Cassandra, I think one or two
• 24:40
  of Cassandra it. There's not many other stories
• 24:43
  where there's just huge swathes of characters.
• 24:45
  We have got absolutely no idea what.
• 24:46
  This looks like John. Why was?
• 24:48
  Why on earth did you give John cure or an extended break?
• 24:52
  Or just get someone to take some photos.
• 24:55
  I think when you get to, we get to the Celestial Toy Maker that
• 24:59
  someone's had a word because like there's yeah, and.
• 25:02
  I know we've we kept the ark, but there's loads of pictures
• 25:05
  from the ark as well. I think this and the massacre
• 25:08
  are probably the two missing stories.
• 25:11
  Possibly space pirates as well, where there's just so little
• 25:15
  reference material you. Know I love the massacre.
• 25:18
  I think it is one of the most extraordinary Doctor Who dramas
• 25:22
  there ever was. It.
• 25:23
  It doesn't even feel like Doctor Who at all.
• 25:24
  It's so good. It doesn't feel like Doctor.
• 25:27
  Who I actually think this is a better Doctor Who story.
• 25:30
  This has got the the Doctor, Stephen and Vicky front and
• 25:33
  centre. It's actually about they're
• 25:35
  they're driving the story. But it just remembers to be
• 25:39
  funny as well. And I think the massacre is
• 25:42
  quite grim. And it it it's, I don't think
• 25:46
  there's actually that much humour in it as well.
• 25:48
  I think it might be a a joke somewhere, but this is.
• 25:53
  Just non-stop. What surprised me about this was
• 25:56
  how suspenseful it felt when the horse is approaching Troy.
• 26:02
  I kind of knew we were heading for a massacre, but suddenly
• 26:05
  that I sort of had my tummy was in knots.
• 26:09
  You know I'm going, oh, this, this, this.
• 26:11
  Don't feel right. Yeah.
• 26:12
  I mean, it's going to go horribly wrong and.
• 26:14
  I think it's possibly a little bit more effective.
• 26:16
  I mean, I love the massacre. I think the Massacre is a lost
• 26:18
  gem, but I think that's that's a really good point.
• 26:22
  And that that cliffhanger episode 3, when the horse has
• 26:24
  been brought in and the music's being played and it's not so
• 26:27
  wobbly this time. And you kind of know, especially
• 26:31
  when it will come up with your next episode, Horse of
• 26:32
  Destruction and it's like the shit's going to hit the fan.
• 26:36
  And I think because we, you know, we know a little bit about
• 26:39
  the myth. We know, you know the Fall of
• 26:42
  Troy, the Troy, you know what's going to happen.
• 26:44
  I think with the Massacre, because we, I certainly didn't
• 26:47
  know anything about it before I watched it.
• 26:49
  You could have is there going to be this horror massacre next
• 26:53
  week here you you know what's coming and then how much of it
• 26:57
  we're going to see is worth. And I think certainly we'll have
• 27:02
  seen enough because it does sound pretty brutal.
• 27:06
  Yeah, I mean, none of those comic characters are given a
• 27:10
  part in line. They're just killed.
• 27:12
  They're just. It's brutal.
• 27:14
  It it, it, it's it's almost like the joke kind of stop.
• 27:19
  There's still some people in the last episode, but.
• 27:22
  What? It's like Donald Cotton's going,
• 27:23
  oh, you think history is funny, dear?
• 27:25
  Well, I've made you think that. But actually, what?
• 27:27
  And then he just comes at you with a sword.
• 27:29
  And and and brutal murder and I think this screaming off camera
• 27:34
  and I think in, I don't know if it's in the reconstruction, it's
• 27:37
  a kind of they come in basically just Prime and Paris are dead.
• 27:40
  I think they're just killed, either killed off screen or
• 27:42
  killed between scenes. And I think these are your
• 27:45
  comedy, you know, Hugh Laurie type and you know, Mad King Dad
• 27:50
  and everything like that. And they just Bruce Lee murdered
• 27:54
  Eddie. There's not many stories.
• 27:56
  It's affected, though. I think it's it's really it's.
• 28:00
  Yeah, yeah. And to change tones like that,
• 28:01
  you've got to be pretty confident in what you're doing.
• 28:04
  Rob Schumer gets an interesting reading on this.
• 28:06
  He goes like, you have mission to the unknown.
• 28:08
  Then you expected this sort of big intergalactic war and they
• 28:11
  said what you've got was sort of a comedy war taking place, which
• 28:17
  then at the end has a Stig in its tail and shows you just how
• 28:21
  brutal warfare can be, and then you.
• 28:25
  Think. All right, fine.
• 28:26
  We've learnt our lesson and then the nightmare begins is
• 28:29
  literally the first episode of the next one.
• 28:32
  And then we learn it all over again.
• 28:34
  And you think? All right.
• 28:35
  That's fine. The next story will be a little.
• 28:37
  Bit lighter. What's the first episode of The
• 28:38
  Massacled? War of God.
• 28:40
  You know, like they're trying to tell us something about
• 28:45
  conflict. I mean Master Master Plan is
• 28:48
  such a weird beast because you've got those sort of you
• 28:50
  know Feast of Steven Volcano which are a bit a little bit
• 28:53
  lighter. I mean Feast of Stevens mental.
• 28:56
  But generally Master Plan is grim and and and you know, God,
• 29:03
  was it back. No, not bought by Australia
• 29:05
  because so many characters got killed in it.
• 29:10
  And so you know, and the massacre, I think most of the
• 29:13
  supporting casts are killed off the Ark, or technically half the
• 29:17
  sports and cast of the Ark die halfway through the story
• 29:19
  because we jumped forward 600 years.
• 29:21
  What a. Bit of a cheap.
• 29:23
  Fair enough. And that's the end of episode 2.
• 29:27
  What? Happened at the end there.
• 29:29
  Stephen is taken prisoner and Vicky recognizes him and she's
• 29:34
  going C she's a spy and we get a classic kill them, kill both of.
• 29:39
  Them Is it Priam or is it Cassandra saying this?
• 29:42
  Oh well, that is a great question then.
• 29:45
  I think you know. Because Francis, why I started.
• 29:47
  Doing the conventional circuit that I saw her utopia a couple
• 29:50
  of years ago and she goes, you know, I had a wonderful time,
• 29:54
  she goes, but oh, I don't think it was one of my more subtle
• 29:57
  performances. No, Francis, it was not.
• 30:01
  It's not. Have you ever seen I, Claudius?
• 30:04
  Yes, fairly recently, yes. Yeah, because she's she's, I
• 30:09
  forgotten Julian in the first two episodes and there's a
• 30:11
  couple of bits in that where she's on a kind of on a
• 30:15
  histrionic level, similar to. Because I think even in that
• 30:18
  first reconstruction they used clips of of stills from I,
• 30:23
  Claudius for Cassandra, because at that point I don't think they
• 30:25
  had any pictures of her and she's screaming and shouting at
• 30:29
  the camera. It's like it kind of worked.
• 30:30
  They've used the same 3 or 4 pictures over and over, but it
• 30:34
  worked because she knows how to pitch over the top.
• 30:38
  But I remember her because back in the early 90s there was abbc
• 30:43
  sitcom called May to. December She was a secretary,
• 30:45
  wasn't she? She was a slightly dowdy
• 30:47
  secretary, Yes, she's in Doctor Who and you're going bloody
• 30:50
  hell, is that actually the same person giving?
• 30:53
  US Leslie Dunlop was in there as well, wasn't she from Frontiers
• 30:56
  and Happiness Patrol? She was.
• 30:58
  Yeah, so I've watched it recently.
• 31:00
  You know, it's not quite as good as I remembered, but at the time
• 31:03
  I loved it. I remember I remember enjoying
• 31:05
  that and then I saw, I think it was on what it's on one of the
• 31:08
  Sabai channels. I saw bitter that I got OK, this
• 31:12
  is so 90s, this is very early 90s, fairly standard sitcom.
• 31:17
  It's not bad. It's the I don't think there's
• 31:19
  anything massively offensive in it, which is actually quite nice
• 31:22
  for 90s sitcom because some of them have not aged.
• 31:25
  Well, sort of reminds me of as time goes by, you know, sort of
• 31:27
  amiable, but inoffensive. I, I we when we were doing
• 31:33
  lockdown, we were watching through whole loads of sitcoms.
• 31:35
  As time goes by was one of the ones that Chris said let's just
• 31:37
  sit and watch it. We've got the box sit, let's sit
• 31:39
  and watch. I can't wait.
• 31:40
  Really appreciating that more. I was kind of dismissed it as
• 31:43
  that slightly naff thing on Sundays and I was going, this is
• 31:46
  actually a lot cleverer than I thought.
• 31:50
  I just hated that character that come in all the time going oh hi
• 31:55
  lie, what was his name? Alistair.
• 31:59
  Oh. God, he was so slimy.
• 32:03
  Anyway, sorry, back to the myth mate.
• 32:05
  It's comedy. It's all about comedy and
• 32:07
  comedy. You got to have a slammy case.
• 32:09
  And actually there's something, there's something I've mentioned
• 32:11
  earlier in this episode that Rob Shuman brings up and running
• 32:14
  through crimes. I want to talk about.
• 32:15
  It's another comedy show, but I'll save it for episode 3
• 32:18
  because you don't. We need to keep our powder dry a
• 32:20
  little bit to keep people enticed.
• 32:22
  But may I'll give you another very quick reading from the
• 32:24
  novelisation. Go for it.
• 32:26
  So this is him talking about the Greeks and the Trojans, and this
• 32:31
  is sort of brevity in this paragraph of how quickly he gets
• 32:34
  the detail across. OK he goes, that was the trouble
• 32:37
  I suppose. The Trojans were just one big
• 32:39
  happy, well off and privileged family which is decadent and
• 32:43
  reactionary, while the Greeks were a quarrelsome bunch of
• 32:48
  unscrupulous riff raff without 2 morals to rub together, which is
• 32:52
  progressive and meant that they had to win in the end because of
• 32:55
  the inevitable tide of history. I'm told, although I don't see
• 32:59
  it myself, just that he he just gets the two sides there in one
• 33:04
  sentence in one paragraph. Brilliant.
• 33:07
  I I I'm going to have to reread this book.
• 33:09
  It's been a long time since I listened to the audio book.
• 33:11
  I think I'm going to get out because I I love this.
• 33:15
  I've I've always liked it, but just kind of going, certainly
• 33:18
  digging into what it might look like.
• 33:20
  Listening to the adaptation, it's like, there's so much, here
• 33:23
  we are, there's someone just find just something.
• 33:29
  Oh my God, I've just found one more passage, but I'll just
• 33:31
  squeeze one more in here because I want.
• 33:32
  I won't get them all in. This is really early as well.
• 33:35
  It's about the. Manifestation of God.
• 33:37
  So this. Is the sort of stuff that he's
• 33:40
  talking about. Mind you, we Greeks are.
• 33:43
  Constantly expecting the materialization, materialization
• 33:46
  of some God or other agog to intervene in human affairs?
• 33:50
  Well, no, to be honest, not really expecting.
• 33:53
  Put it this way. Our religious education has
• 33:56
  prepared us to accept it, should it occur, But that is by no
• 34:00
  means to say we anticipate it as a common phenomenon.
• 34:03
  It's the sort of thing that happens to other people, perhaps
• 34:06
  and hardly before one's own eyes, in the middle of everyday
• 34:09
  affairs, such as the present formalistic bloodletting.
• 34:13
  Certainly not, no. But as I say, the Church has
• 34:16
  warned us of the possibility, however remote it is.
• 34:20
  So cheeky this. Book.
• 34:23
  It's one of those one where you're surprised that the kind
• 34:26
  of you know, brand management in the 80s was probably slightly
• 34:30
  different. It's like can we have the, you
• 34:32
  know, we just want, you know, we just want a straightforward
• 34:34
  novelisation. We don't need a treatise on God.
• 34:36
  It's like that sort of it. You're getting that from the
• 34:39
  point of view, from the point of view of Hobart, and we're
• 34:41
  getting some. Tara Sticks probably saw it.
• 34:44
  Coming in, it was like. I'm not weeding all that.
• 34:46
  Oh, we'll just publish it. It'll be fine.
• 34:48
  He's a good writer. We'll cover it with a line.
• 34:52
  He covers it with a lot of lines.
• 34:54
  Well. Talking of Lions, let's go and
• 34:57
  see what witty lines we've got to discover in episode 3.