Latest / The SME Stream / Fibre's impressive return on investment in Aotearoa

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Fibre's impressive return on investment in Aotearoa · The SME Stream

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We've heard so much in the past couple of years
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: about the woeful state of the nation's infrastructure, from dilapidated
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: roads to broken pipes.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: We can't even seem to get our act together to
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: secure new ferries for the Cook Straight crossing.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: But there is one particular infrastructure bright spot, ultra fast broadband.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: This week on the Business of Tech Powered by two Degrees,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Deloitte's economists walk us through their new analysis which suggests
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: we've already received a thirty one billion dollar boost from
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: having access to high speed internet available to eighty seven
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: percent of the country, and how we could add a
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: further one hundred and sixty three billion dollars to the
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: economy over the next decade, all thanks to that fiber
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: in the ground.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Here's some big numbers there, but the digital divide, a
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: gap between fiber availability and uptake, and the slow adoption
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: of digital technologies among our small businesses could see us
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: leave billions in economic gains on the table.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I'm Peter Griffin and I'm Ben Moore and soon you're
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: here from Lisa Vandermev and Mayo ash Prasad on the
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: UFB dividend.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: But first being you and our Business Desk colleague Garth Bray,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: a familiar face too many from his time as a
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: reporter on TVTD Fair Go program, have been looking at
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: the latest iPhone sixteen devices from Apple. Given this is
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: a really big update for Apple, I think a lot
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: of listeners will be keen to hear what the two
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: of you make about it. So what you had two
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: different models you split between the two of.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: You, That's right.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: I've been using the iPhone sixteen Pro Max, the big
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: one at the big Old Boy, and Garth's been using
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: the sixteen base model, and he is upgrading from an
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: iPhone eight as you will hear, so a bit of
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: a big step. I previously was using a review unit
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: of the fifteen Pro, so not that much of a
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: difference for me. Also, obviously, I'm a bit of a
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I'm not a I wouldn't call myself power user, but
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I do heavily use my phone and lots of it's
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: different features, whereas Garth is more of a gentle kind
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: of user of the iPhone ecosystem, so you know, things
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: like having to talk them into using face IDs. This
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: is definitely an interesting conversation that we get to have.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: We called it comparing apples and you can have a
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: listen to that.
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  Speaker 4: Now, this is very exciting, Garth, you've agreed to join us.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Obviously you're Garth Bray. I'm Ben Moore.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I'm the host of the Business of Tech podcast and
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: a tech editor at Business Desk.
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: And I'm a roving investigative reporter and a little bit
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: of a new when it comes to new apples. And
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: so when being you said you could get your hands
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: on a new iPhone sixteen for me to have a
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: try with, I was like, this is my chance, this
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: is my chance stepped into the twenty twenties.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, welcome, because you were coming up from an iPhone eight?
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Is that right?
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  Speaker 6: Yeah? And I would have to say, just straight off
• 3:00
  Speaker 6: the mark, where's the button? Where's the button gone? The
• 3:04
  Speaker 6: thing about that button.
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: That I loved on my iPhone hate was it's just
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: so convenient you click on that. It does so much
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: and it's got the touch ID, which is something I
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: would really want to break into with you in this
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: if you like like definite where is that gone?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's actually quite an interesting one.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: And that's something that you probably here to people talk
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: about a fair amount because there are ways of doing
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: touch ID without that button, but Apple has decided no
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: face ID or passcode. That's your kind of lot. So
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: that's kind of what we're going to be doing, is
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: basically talking about what it's like to use the new
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Apple sixteen. I've been using the sixteen Pro Max, which
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: is kind of the big boy does everything, has everything.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: You've been using the sixteen base model, and I don't
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: think there's a huge amount of difference in general, but
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: you've also only been using it for a few days
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: at this point. First of all, when you first unboxed it,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: how did it.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: Feel ill compared to your eight?
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  Speaker 5: Well, I mean it's bigger obviously for a start, even
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: the base model is larger, and just the way it
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: immediately kind of booted up, ran through the languages, it
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: all felt very intuitive, And I've got to say I
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: spent probably most of Saturday morning just sitting there tooling
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: across from one.
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  Speaker 3: To the other.
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: But the whole process of shifting from one to another,
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: I'd forgotten how seamless these guys make this. Compared to
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  Speaker 5: my son who got the donation of the old iPhone eight,
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: he spent probably a few few hours trying to put
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: stuff across from an Android phone.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: And maybe it's something.
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: That people who regularly change phones wouldn't necessarily notice because
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: it's a bit more incremental. But when you've got like
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: years with the stuff there, it all just went straight across.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, with a few exceptions.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, there are a few exceptions. And as somebody
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: who does regularly change my phone and also regularly changes
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: so I also run an Android for work purposes, I
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: do actually much much prefer their changeover of your iPhone
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: your Apple phones, partially because Android has so many different manufacturers.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: But yeah, iPhone definitely does the best thing.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: The biggest frustration for me was getting a new iPhone
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: is having to reconnect all of my cards.
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: Ah, but so frustrating. This is a plus minus for me. Okay,
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: so yeah it was a hassle, But the whole thing
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: of porting those cards over, I think it's like a detox.
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  Speaker 3: It's like a choice.
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  Speaker 5: So you sit there and go hang on, this is
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  Speaker 5: the credit card that I'm being asked to add to
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: this wallet and approve, And this is the credit card
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: that I've taken out of my physical wallet because I'm
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: gen X and still actually have a wallet, and I
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: I've wrapped it up in a series of post it notes,
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: and each one of them says do you really need this?
• 5:45
  Speaker 6: Do you really really need this?
• 5:46
  Speaker 5: And now being asked to put it on my phone,
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: I'll go, actually, no, no, I won't.
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  Speaker 6: So I see it as a plus.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: You're right, it does have that that is good.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: But if you're like me and you have like more
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: debit cards, then you probably should and you kind of
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: use having different debit cards for budgeting because they're so
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: easy to spin up these days. And then if you're
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: using a watch I'm also reviewing the series ten watch,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: you also need to do it all again pretty much
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: to be fair.
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's people's money we're talking about there, right,
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: so you want a pretty high standard there. But I'm
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: just a little bit horrified to you how many debit
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: cards you've got. You know, the fees, the fees alone
• 6:22
  Speaker 5: are going to be keeping you broke.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Well no, we Yeah, it's probably stupid, but I tend
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: to go, I tend to have really good ideas and
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: then go, this will help with organization, and then and
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: that with like a million email addresses and debit cardspace,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: ID I haven't done face, ID do I need to
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: do face idace ID. Well, I mean that depends how
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: much do you like putting passwords s into your phone?
• 6:44
  Speaker 6: Well, this is the thing.
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  Speaker 5: Every time, every single thing now going you know, jumping
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: into what's it, remember the Corde, jumping into your banking app,
• 6:51
  Speaker 5: remembering that pin code, every transaction that just used to
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: be put your your thumb on the bottom and now
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: it's like it's not there. And you mentioned there are
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: ways to do it, because I know talking to friends
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: that there are some Android phones like Samsung one that
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: will just pick it up through some almost spectral process.
• 7:09
  Speaker 6: Right on the screen.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you put a ghost inside the phone and
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: then you can No, they do have underscreen fingerprint readers,
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: so you can put your thumb on the screen and
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: it can read it through there. You also can some
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: of them have the fingerprint reader on the side button.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: But Apple, I think one of the things is they
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: don't want to put the physical technology in the phone.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: They want to cut down on space, They want to
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: cut down on complexity on the actual board itself, and
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: so they would rather use face ID so there's less
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: burden of actual physical stuff they need.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: That's just my hunch.
• 7:42
  Speaker 6: I think they just want us looking at the phone more.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: I think they probably want us looking at the phone
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: more as well. Definitely, yah right, and that's just like
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: queuing there then. But it's it's pretty great Apple ladies.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Apple's face idea is really easy to use, very intuitive,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: works ninety nine percent of the time. As long as
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: you're okay with you know, having their your biometric data
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: stored on your phone, then that's okay.
• 8:06
  Speaker 5: I think after years on the Telly, it's probably already
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: out there anywhere. Look, Okay, for next time, I will
• 8:12
  Speaker 5: try face ID and I will give you some updates
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: on how that works for me. But I'm still not
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: sure about Siri. Do I need Suri in my life?
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: So this is where we start getting into Apple Intelligence.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: So at the moment, what we've got with Siri is
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: still a bit clunky, not as good as some of
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the competition out there in terms of picking stuff up
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: or reacting to what you're saying. But in the eighteen
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: point one update iOS eighteen point one, we should be
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: getting Apple Intelligence, and part of that will be powering
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Siri with a lot more contextual understanding and ability to
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: respond to you, as well as some other features which
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: are pretty cool at the moment, I am okay with Siri.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: She's she and I or he and I in my phone.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: The Irish man that I have answering to.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: Me follow me. I'm deliciously exactly here, and I get
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: on pretty well. My wife and Siri do not get
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: on well at all. She really struggles to get Siri
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: to respond to her.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know whether that's a training thing or if
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: it's an accent thing, because my accent's a bit less
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: kiary than hers. Probably, So I would be very interested
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: for you to give Siri a go as it is
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: now and see how useful it is.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: We can check some of that stuff out. Yeah, you're
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: gonna go see what you think.
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: So the other thing I think is that continuing that
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: theme of like choices that you're asked to make, like
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: will I give my face to this or.
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: Will I sign up that card?
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: Little stuff like you're.
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: Going through an emergency call organ donation. Yeah, I'm now
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: being asked to consider whether or not I'm an organ donor,
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: and I'm thinking this might be set up later for me.
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: It's kind of like, Okay, that's an interesting choice. So
• 9:47
  Speaker 5: I'm I'm very keen on that idea of any time
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: you step from one platform to another or even a
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: new little piece, it's a good chance to look at
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: how it affects all the parts of your life and
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: whether you could be doing it and maybe whether there's
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: some underlying choices that you need to reflect on.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: So that's for me.
• 10:05
  Speaker 6: It was a transformational experience in many ways.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine, and like I think, you know,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: as somebody who does it so frequently, I just do
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: it on autopilot now tic tic yes, yes, yes, have
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: my heart. I don't care to be honest, like, yeah,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: maybe I should stop and actually take some time to
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: think about to do a little digital cleanse and actually
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: go through and look at everything. But it's just so
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: unwieldly at this point. It is so thoroughly integrated with
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: my life. I've got apps on there from a million
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: years ago I never.
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: Use and yeah, and I guess, look, okay, it's it's
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: not the same as moving the entire contents of your
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: house with you when you go and not sort of
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: downtizing or whatever. I think I had about sixty point
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: one eight gig of stuff that poorted from one to
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: the other, which I'm just thinking back once upon a
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: time would have taken forever and literally was like I
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: think I went away and made a cup of coffee
• 10:52
  Speaker 5: and it.
• 10:52
  Speaker 7: Was just about that.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: It's incredible, isn't it.
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: And just the way it sort of happens in such proximity.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: It's kind of increasingly the way that I don't I
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: would imagine technology should work. It's just finally it's happening
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: without the need to plug stuff in and connect it
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: and all.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: That kind of thing.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I think that's pretty What makes Apple kind of special
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: is the lack of friction, you know, that is really
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: what they're all about, that user intuitiveness, user interface.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I.
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: Found it really interesting that transferring your phone number is
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: like almost about the fifth or sixth It's so down
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: the list. This is a phone, you know, originally its
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: purpose was to ring people, and there's some way down
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: the list we get to, Oh, by the way, if
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: you've got a phone number, you might want to chuck
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: it in. Now, at what point are we just not
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: going to have phone numbers anymore?
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really interesting question.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I think that a phone number has become more of
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: a unique identifier than anything else, because people if you
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: have like FaceTime, people can ring you using your email address. Realistically,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: we don't ring people. We don't talk in the same
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: way anymore. We don't talk using resonance. That's kind of
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: sent down copper wires. It's digital. Things get turned into
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: a digital format and sense to you digitally. So the
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: idea of a phone number where it's trying to figure
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: out which exchange to go through is kind of obsolete,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: But as a number that is a unique identifier for
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: you still very useful and will probably be used as
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: we move forward into the digital identity world as well,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: which is where things like having your organ donation status
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: on your phone. You know that could be now when
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: we get to digital identity that can be linked to
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: your driver's license, can be linked to other forms of IDA,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and it will all be kind of integrated into this
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: digital morass that defines you.
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: I guess it's a billing point right for most bats,
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: this is who we're seeing the bill to, so they
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: want to kind of maintain that connection to some extent.
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: But surely there must, like you say, to your point
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: where you just don't.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Really need it anymore.
• 12:44
  Speaker 6: You can get by without it.
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: There's a lot to consider here, and so I don't
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: want to try and cram it all into our first chat,
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: but it feels like we've got we've got some solid
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: chances to try and help me understand technology.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: I feel you know the stuff backwards.
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: And this is why I'm very, very glad to have
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: your expertise at my disposal here, because I would say, like,
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: not knowing what goes on inside a phone doesn't necessarily
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: hold people back, but it might hold them back from going, Oh,
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: do I really want to spend like another fifteen hundred
• 13:12
  Speaker 5: bucks or something, or a whole lot extra on this,
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: But I guess I'm interested to explore all the things
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: that I didn't realize the phone could do and in
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: ways that it might sort of help sort of make
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: life a bit more simple.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really interested to hear what you think, in
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: particular of some of the sixteen specific features like having
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: a camera button at your dispose, or how often do
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: you use the camera button as you start to use
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: the phone more, what other kind of bits and pieces
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: in the sixteen compared to the eight you're finding quite
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: useful and interesting?
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: And it sent me all these things like, hey, you
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: can get three months Apple TV, so you can see
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: how constantly they're using ways to flick you some insurance,
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: flick you some extra plans, and it's really just a
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: gateway drug to all the things that they offer.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: There's a reason, and the Apple really have a decent
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: services revenue as well as their product revenue, so you
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: can definitely see how.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: They want to keep that going.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Long.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: More on that in the next one, maybe, maybe. Yeah,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: thank you so much.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: For taking the time to chat with us, Garth, and
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: thank you guys for joining us.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Interesting Ben. You know, we usually because we're upgrading our
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: phones a bit more often are going from you know,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: an iPhone fifteen to sixteen, or an S twenty three
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Samsung Galaxy to a twenty four. Garth has skipped quite
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: a few generations and quite confronting for him not to
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: have a physical button on a phone. It's just something
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: we take for granted now, but actually for a long
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: time that was a really cool feature off the iPhone.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the thing that he pointed out about touch
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: id and his love for touch ID, which I actually
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: remember missing when I first upgraded. But I've become very
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: used to face ID. But one very exciting thing is
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: that I'm not one of those people who dives into
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: beta operating systems. I tend to wait for the full release.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And today I woke up this morning and my phone
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: said eighteen point one is ready for download. That's going
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: to be Apple Intelligence. So I haven't had time to
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: do that the OS upgrade yet, but hopefully after this
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: conversation today, I will upgrade it to Apple Intelligence, And
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: so next time Garth and I have a chat, I'll
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: have a lot more to say.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For me, that's the one thing I really want
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: to see. I know they have great hardware, a great
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: operating system, but the one thing that might get me
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: across from Android into the Apple camp is all of
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: these built in free features that come as part of
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Apple Intelligence. And we're talking about things like tools to
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: allow you to edit and so memorze your emails, text
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: editing tools across the iPhone, the ability to automatically transcribe
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: and record conversations on the phone. That's really valuable. But
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see what Garth makes if the
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: AI powered Siri when that comes along. He's obviously been
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: using it to some effect, but that's potentially going to
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: be quite a big change in the iPhone as well
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: when they have generative AI underpinning Siri, that's able to
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: cross a number of apps on your phone and give
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: you a lot more value in terms of it being
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: able to find information on your device and control menus
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: and the like. That's what Apple is talking about with
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Apple Intelligence, but haven't seen it in the wild yet.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: So we'll probably have part two of my series with
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Garth and the New Year, so stay tuned for that,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: And in the meantime, let's head over to our featured guests.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: As I said before, we've got Lisa van der merv
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: and Ash Prasad from consulting firm Deloitte. Lisa is a
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: lead partner at Deloitte Access Economics and former Commerce Commission economist,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: and Mayo Rash as an Associate director and senior economist
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: at Deloit Access Economics, and he also did a length
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: at the ComCom.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, then you report Unleashing the Power of Digital Fiber
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Infrastructure in New Zealand is probably the first in depth
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: look at what our five point five billion dollar investment
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: in ultrafast broadband has returned to the country and what
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the spin offs might be in the next decade. As
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: we enter the ai Era.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack with this, I mean, considered
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: one of the most successful projects in New Zealand's history
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: in terms of what it has actually been able to
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: deliver to its citizenry. So here's that interview. Peter speaking
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: to Lisa and Mayor Rash from Deloitte.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Lisa and Mayor Esh, Welcome to the Business of Tech.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on.
• 17:57
  Speaker 8: Well, thank you for the opportunity to be sha some
• 18:01
  Speaker 8: insights from our recent report.
• 18:03
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I likewise thank you for having us on.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've just done this really interesting report, a
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: retrospective report in some sense, looking back at what we've
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: achieved with the ultra fast broadband network. Now that was
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: sort of designed and thought off and the politicians really
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: got behind that way back in two thousand and nine.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Construction started in twenty ten. This was back in the
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Key government. We're now in twenty twenty four. So let's
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: just break down. First, break down the numbers for us
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: in terms of looking back to I think twenty twelve
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: the research covers to twenty twenty three. What did it achieve?
• 18:40
  Speaker 8: Firstly, maybe just stepping back a little bit, so I've
• 18:44
  Speaker 8: been Peter, like you I've been part of the Fiber
• 18:47
  Speaker 8: journey since they won while I was working at the
• 18:50
  Speaker 8: Commas Commission, I mean, even thinking about regulation, what does
• 18:54
  Speaker 8: the design look like? At the start there was quite
• 18:57
  Speaker 8: a key focus just on a spine from his supply
• 19:00
  Speaker 8: side perspective. We then conducted in twenty twelve at demand
• 19:03
  Speaker 8: site studying because demand at that point in time was
• 19:06
  Speaker 8: still so uncertain. Just reflecting back on that is, if
• 19:12
  Speaker 8: I look at the Fiber roller today, it's probably one
• 19:16
  Speaker 8: of the most successful examples of a large scale public
• 19:20
  Speaker 8: private partnership that we have in New Zealand. So in
• 19:23
  Speaker 8: that context, we took it upon ourselves to do this
• 19:26
  Speaker 8: report and as you say, firstly, consider what are the
• 19:29
  Speaker 8: benefits today, what are the benefits in the future, and
• 19:33
  Speaker 8: what actions do we need to take to achieve that benefit.
• 19:37
  Speaker 7: The way we looked at it was, you know, measure
• 19:40
  Speaker 7: how fiber has better enabled us to combine now know
• 19:43
  Speaker 7: how our our labor are capital to better produce goods
• 19:47
  Speaker 7: and services. So what we've what we found is that
• 19:50
  Speaker 7: between twenty twelve and twenty twenty three, the productivity uplift
• 19:54
  Speaker 7: I mean GDP terms is thirty one billion, so quite
• 19:56
  Speaker 7: a significant amount, and you know, in twenty twenty three,
• 19:59
  Speaker 7: just in particular, the productivity uplift was eight point eight billion,
• 20:03
  Speaker 7: so recently significant amounts of productivity uplift to date as
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: a result of the fiber network.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that really interested me. In twenty twenty three
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: eight billion odd and economic uplift there it seems to
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: be is this an acceleration. What explains that just in
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: one year we've got almost a quarter of that economic
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: uplift is that just because uptake is accelerating.
• 20:24
  Speaker 8: It is around uptake, it is around access, and it
• 20:28
  Speaker 8: is around speed, but it's also coupled with the development
• 20:32
  Speaker 8: of new applications and innovations, and that is driving the
• 20:35
  Speaker 8: productivity benefits.
• 20:37
  Speaker 9: That is a result that we see in twenty twenty.
• 20:40
  Speaker 7: Three when the network's being rolled out, obviously, you know,
• 20:42
  Speaker 7: we're necessarily going to see the benefits. But once uptake
• 20:45
  Speaker 7: increased and applications started getting developed on that connection, that's
• 20:49
  Speaker 7: when we started seeing the productivity uplift. And that's why
• 20:52
  Speaker 7: you see more of the impact and the latter period
• 20:54
  Speaker 7: because that's really when people started connecting and using and
• 20:58
  Speaker 7: developing applications. And I think productivity as a result of
• 21:01
  Speaker 7: the fiber newwork.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you pointed out in there, I think there's
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: been about a five point five billion dollar investment in
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: the UFB network between Orus and the other fiber providers
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: have obviously invested a lot of money. We've had at
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: least one point five billion taxpayer dollars in the form
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: of loans and investment went into that as well. So
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I guess an economic terms, pretty darn good return on
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: investment so far.
• 21:26
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that's absolutely right, Peter.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Having said that, you know, you point out in the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: report that we haven't really captured the productivity potential off
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: this network. We have a New Zealand a reputation for
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: not being great on the productivity front compared to other
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: advanced nations. We lag behind them. We've been hearing from
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research many others that
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: one of the keys to boosting productivity is embracing advanced technologies.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: A lot of them are digital technologies underpinned by high
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: speed in it. So mayrish to what extent have we
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: actually got a productivity boost to date from UFB. We've
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: obviously had an economic impact. What about the productivity story.
• 22:10
  Speaker 7: It has a lift of productivity to date. Despite the
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: weak productivity overall, what I would say is that our
• 22:16
  Speaker 7: productivity performance would have been a lot worse had it
• 22:19
  Speaker 7: not been for the fiber network. But as our report emphasizes,
• 22:22
  Speaker 7: there's still a long way to go. There's still a
• 22:24
  Speaker 7: massive dividend to capture if we continue, well, if we
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: take a few key six steps that we've outlined in
• 22:32
  Speaker 7: our report to really capture that substantial dividend to come.
• 22:35
  Speaker 8: I mean, if we all imagine a world without fiber
• 22:38
  Speaker 8: productivity in New zeal And, what would our productivity look like?
• 22:41
  Speaker 8: It uplifted our productivity. And what we also showing the
• 22:44
  Speaker 8: report is that our productivity payoff to come is just
• 22:47
  Speaker 8: really getting started, and we have a potential to add
• 22:50
  Speaker 8: another one hundred and sixty three billion dollars in MPV
• 22:54
  Speaker 8: terms over the next decade.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: You explain that in MPV, so you've got one hundred
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: and sixty three billion dollars by twenty thirty three. What
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: does the MPV mean?
• 23:04
  Speaker 8: MPV is just net present value terms. What is the
• 23:07
  Speaker 8: value to dry over the next ten years.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: So that's obviously significant. And to achieve that, we will
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: get onto the six things that you sort of have
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: outlined you need to achieve. One of them is just
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: actually using this sort of gold plated network that we've built.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: So I think it's been rolled out to eighty five
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: percent of the country now, but not everyone's using it, right.
• 23:30
  Speaker 9: That is absolutely right.
• 23:32
  Speaker 8: I mean in our report, what we indicate is that yes,
• 23:35
  Speaker 8: eighty percent off our population do have coverage in fiber,
• 23:39
  Speaker 8: but uptake of fiber is currently sitting at seventy five percent.
• 23:43
  Speaker 8: And if we break it down on a regional basis,
• 23:46
  Speaker 8: for example, if we look at Wellington, there's a gap
• 23:49
  Speaker 8: between access and uptake of twenty two percent.
• 23:52
  Speaker 9: That is the first component that we need to focus on.
• 23:55
  Speaker 8: Is really decreasing the gap between access and updake.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, drill into that a little bit more, Marsh. You've
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: identified the seventeen billion dollar figure that would be left
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: on the table. Is that simply down to the fact
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: that if we don't extend this out, less people can
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: access this, less people get those productivity gains.
• 24:13
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I think better. That's that's exactly exactly right.
• 24:16
  Speaker 7: By increasing coverage and also I think importantly increasing uptake,
• 24:21
  Speaker 7: you get consumers, businesses and the like accessing this high
• 24:24
  Speaker 7: speed internet infrastructure. Increasingly as we outline in our or,
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: there'll be a lot more applications, technologies and the like
• 24:31
  Speaker 7: that are reliant on the high speed nature of the connectivity,
• 24:34
  Speaker 7: but also the bandwidth and latent to see characteristics of
• 24:38
  Speaker 7: the technology, they'll be crucial in enabling that. So the
• 24:41
  Speaker 7: more connection coverage you get of the fiber network, the
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: more use of these new technologies you get, and the
• 24:48
  Speaker 7: more better we get at producing goods and services I
• 24:53
  Speaker 7: eat productivity, and the better the benefits overall. So that
• 24:56
  Speaker 7: that's how Yeah, characterizing, I agree with you, but just
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: unpacking up pack your question at bit more.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, looking forward, let's look at these sort of six
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: key things that you've identified that a sort of key
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: to really maximizing the benefit of this leads them. Could
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: you take us through those?
• 25:10
  Speaker 8: Yeah, So in terms of the first actions, we just
• 25:14
  Speaker 8: discussed that already, so that is readdressing digital equity by
• 25:18
  Speaker 8: boosting fiber access and also the uptake in households. The
• 25:22
  Speaker 8: next dimension that we identified or action is in New Zealand,
• 25:26
  Speaker 8: we have to make room to innovate with II. So
• 25:30
  Speaker 8: as part of this is we identified to actions. So
• 25:34
  Speaker 8: the first action is first on policy makers, So policy
• 25:39
  Speaker 8: makers really need to ensure that we promote increased II
• 25:42
  Speaker 8: usage but also in a responsible way. And then it's
• 25:46
  Speaker 8: another action is perhaps on business associations where they would
• 25:51
  Speaker 8: need to work with their members to guide them through
• 25:54
  Speaker 8: the adoption of new technology is but also sharing success stories.
• 25:59
  Speaker 8: Another dum that we've identified is about seizing the opportunity
• 26:03
  Speaker 8: to grow exports. So we know the government would like
• 26:07
  Speaker 8: to double the value of exports and one way that
• 26:10
  Speaker 8: we can diversify our exports is in fact through weightless exports.
• 26:15
  Speaker 8: So New Zealand do have a comparative advantage in this
• 26:18
  Speaker 8: and even if we think, say for example, about our
• 26:20
  Speaker 8: gaming sector. Just last week it was announced that for
• 26:23
  Speaker 8: the first time we are a net exporter from a
• 26:26
  Speaker 8: New Zealand perspective, and our fiber network is so critical
• 26:30
  Speaker 8: to enable this. So what we can do, and this
• 26:33
  Speaker 8: is both on businesses but also the government, is to
• 26:37
  Speaker 8: promote New Zealand, to promote the capabilities of a fiber
• 26:40
  Speaker 8: network and to promote the success of our infrastructure that
• 26:44
  Speaker 8: we have here in New Zealand and that can facilit
• 26:46
  Speaker 8: out of growth in our exports. The last three actions
• 26:49
  Speaker 8: that we identified, one that iuble focus on now is
• 26:53
  Speaker 8: around our small businesses.
• 26:55
  Speaker 9: So our small businesses in New Zealand as really.
• 26:58
  Speaker 8: A backbone of our economy is lagging in a takeing
• 27:02
  Speaker 8: I mean pt you will probably be aware of this
• 27:04
  Speaker 8: to Asia Pacific surveys, as only a third of our
• 27:09
  Speaker 8: small businesses use social media, only three four percent generate
• 27:15
  Speaker 8: more than ten percent of the revenue online. The average
• 27:18
  Speaker 8: on an Asia Pacific level is seventy percent, So we
• 27:21
  Speaker 8: are really lagging behind. This is impacting our growth, also
• 27:26
  Speaker 8: impacting our productivity and performance of our economy. So yeah,
• 27:31
  Speaker 8: we can get small businesses under government really to collaborate
• 27:36
  Speaker 8: in order to get businesses connected and lifting online presence.
• 27:41
  Speaker 8: The government and a small businesses again can work together
• 27:44
  Speaker 8: in terms of providing the right incentives, providing support programs,
• 27:49
  Speaker 8: also ensuring that we are attracting but also retaining the
• 27:53
  Speaker 8: right talent in New Zealand. And then if we think
• 27:55
  Speaker 8: about larger businesses, they can in fact support these small
• 28:00
  Speaker 8: business customers through processes of digital adoption and facilitating knowledge sharing.
• 28:07
  Speaker 8: Then if we only focus on the government for moment,
• 28:09
  Speaker 8: the government can really be an early adopter. So what
• 28:12
  Speaker 8: do we mean by that? For example, the Commerce Commission
• 28:16
  Speaker 8: in their recent market study on personal banking. One of
• 28:21
  Speaker 8: the recommendations there was for the government to be an
• 28:24
  Speaker 8: early adopted in open banking, so we refer to it
• 28:27
  Speaker 8: as open customer data because banking is the first sectem
• 28:32
  Speaker 8: being insurance, energy and so forth, so the government could
• 28:36
  Speaker 8: really be an early adopt to day but also ensuring
• 28:39
  Speaker 8: that we are moving more towards a matured digital public infrastructure.
• 28:45
  Speaker 9: And then the last component.
• 28:47
  Speaker 8: Is around regulation or is it deregulation that we need
• 28:52
  Speaker 8: because we need to make sure that our regulations in
• 28:54
  Speaker 8: New Zealand is really fit for purpose, so it is
• 28:58
  Speaker 8: conducive to invite and investment going forward. And I mean
• 29:02
  Speaker 8: regulized could refer to copper, could refer to fiber, could
• 29:06
  Speaker 8: refer to IO. So that is in a natural our
• 29:10
  Speaker 8: recommendations and key actions that we think is required to
• 29:13
  Speaker 8: ensure that we don't miss out on this opportunity. Maurge,
• 29:16
  Speaker 8: do you mind, We just want to flag the example
• 29:19
  Speaker 8: in Europe.
• 29:20
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, sure, think so, Peter. We note in our
• 29:23
  Speaker 7: report Europe's Digital Decade, it's a policy program with kind
• 29:28
  Speaker 7: of concrete targets to make the whole of you a
• 29:30
  Speaker 7: bit more, I guess, transform EU economy and make it
• 29:34
  Speaker 7: more digital. Some of our recommendations draw upon some of
• 29:38
  Speaker 7: the initiatives from the digital decade. For example, the increase
• 29:42
  Speaker 7: in coverage and uptake is a key key tenet of
• 29:45
  Speaker 7: Europe's digital decade. The other thing I guess I would
• 29:49
  Speaker 7: emphasize is Europe's doing a really really great job in
• 29:52
  Speaker 7: terms of measuring how they are tracking against those targets.
• 29:56
  Speaker 7: So they've got set concrete targets by twenty thirty. Every
• 29:59
  Speaker 7: cup years or so, they measure how each country is
• 30:03
  Speaker 7: tracking in relation to the targets, and if they are
• 30:06
  Speaker 7: tracking properly, they then go back to the drawing board
• 30:10
  Speaker 7: and essentially troubleshoot how they are going to reach those targets.
• 30:14
  Speaker 7: Underpinning those digital targets are quite a range of metrics
• 30:18
  Speaker 7: and data depending how each country is tracking towards the target.
• 30:22
  Speaker 7: They are tracking, how many invoices each of those large
• 30:25
  Speaker 7: to medium to small enterprises are providing as part of
• 30:28
  Speaker 7: their business operations. So really concrete targets backed up by
• 30:32
  Speaker 7: really concrete measurement and recalibration.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, so tracking what you're doing is really important so
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: you can measure progress We have had sort of initiatives
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: in New Zealand, like Digital Boost aimed at at small
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: and medium sized businesses. During the COVID pandemic, there was
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: a big focus on going digital really for necessity, because
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: businesses had to pivot online. You think we've sort of
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: taken a foot off the gas on those efforts. Do
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: we really need to do a lot more? I'm thinking
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: of countries like Singapore which have given all the hawker
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: stalls in the country basically access to f post technology
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: trying to get everyone transacting digitally. Do we really need
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: to do a bigger push with small business to get
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: them capable enough to take advantage of this great network?
• 31:18
  Speaker 8: We have totally agree, Viz, that's really required. I mean,
• 31:22
  Speaker 8: even if we think about our small businesses and the
• 31:25
  Speaker 8: fact that they are lagging in a tech game, that
• 31:28
  Speaker 8: is really important. We also understand, i mean, full small business,
• 31:33
  Speaker 8: the cost around technology and adoption is a big barrier
• 31:37
  Speaker 8: foot them. In order of our small business really to
• 31:40
  Speaker 8: lift their tech game, we might need to consider about
• 31:44
  Speaker 8: how can we support them to do that?
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's for pretty basic stuff really, like, as
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: you say, accessing social media, having an e commerce platform
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: might be Shopify or something getting that enabled for your business.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: But I think we're really starting to see with a
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: lot of businesses moving to the cloud, and then with AI,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: we'll start to see that accelerate, which is what you've
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: identified in the report. May resh what sort of applications
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: when it comes to AI are we starting to see
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: being used and what do you expect over the next decade.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Give us a flavor of some of the more sort
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: of bandwidth intensive applications of AI that our businesses may
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: be using and consumers as well.
• 32:23
  Speaker 7: So at the moment, you know, as you'll be where
• 32:25
  Speaker 7: AI needs to be largely text dominated, so we're seeing
• 32:28
  Speaker 7: a lot of that being rolled out currently, but looking forward,
• 32:31
  Speaker 7: there might be generative AI models that take user prompts
• 32:35
  Speaker 7: and outputs such as videos, and you know, work off
• 32:39
  Speaker 7: that to simulate scenarios or IS solutions or answers. Another
• 32:43
  Speaker 7: example is a shift from X to two dimensional inputs
• 32:47
  Speaker 7: so that those tools can extra plate and generate data
• 32:50
  Speaker 7: representing three D objects or creating virtual renderings or AIA
• 32:54
  Speaker 7: assisted prototypes or designs in a virtual virtual space. So
• 32:58
  Speaker 7: really kind of shift how we use AI currently from
• 33:02
  Speaker 7: a largely text based application to something a lot more interactive,
• 33:06
  Speaker 7: bred and dynamic. The bandwidth and the latency provided by
• 33:11
  Speaker 7: the fiber network will be really, really key to enabling that.
• 33:14
  Speaker 7: It will be a very i guess data hungry application
• 33:17
  Speaker 7: and the fiber network will be critical to that. So yeah,
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: that's that's I guess a view on how things might
• 33:23
  Speaker 7: evolve going into the future. And what is clear as
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: in any scenario, the fiber network will be really important
• 33:31
  Speaker 7: to the adoption and use of those kinds of developments.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've got really no idea what you know,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: what is coming in the next five to seven years.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: You know, Mark Zuckerberg is working on the metaverse. If
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: something like that took off, you know, real time virtual
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: reality and in a multi sort of player environment, could
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: could be very bannedwidth intensive as well. I guess the
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: benefit of fiber is that ability to increase the speeds
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: by changing the equipment at either ends of that hiber
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: optic cable and some of the stuff you've quoted in
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: there from Coorus. It's really quite staggering where we've come from,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: sort of in the last decade, from sort of accessing
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the Internet at five megabits per second too. I think
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: the average was over four hundred megabits per second.
• 34:14
  Speaker 7: Now exactly right, And I just wanted to emphasize that,
• 34:17
  Speaker 7: I guess our estimates of the future dividend in a
• 34:20
  Speaker 7: way are conservative. They relate primarily to the I guess
• 34:24
  Speaker 7: the historical relationship between connectivity speed and penetration and productivity uplift.
• 34:29
  Speaker 7: But if AI technologies start really evolving and taking off,
• 34:35
  Speaker 7: and they still will be reliant on other fiber network
• 34:37
  Speaker 7: then that relationship might increase, and so the potential dividend
• 34:41
  Speaker 7: going forward might be larger. So in many respects, the
• 34:44
  Speaker 7: future potential impact that we've estimated might be a conservative
• 34:48
  Speaker 7: one if things move in a positive direction going forward.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: And Lisa, in the report, you've talked about Europe what
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: they're doing, which is quite regressive. You quote in there
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: is some some research from other countries about the sort
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: of the productivity and economic boost that other countries have
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: experienced as well. How do we compare in terms of
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: how we've done compared to some of those other countries
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: that invested in high speed internet.
• 35:13
  Speaker 8: The first example is probably the example closest to us,
• 35:17
  Speaker 8: and that's Australium. So what we know is Australia mandated
• 35:21
  Speaker 8: a copy to fiber migration, where as an inner Zealand
• 35:26
  Speaker 8: we ben it.
• 35:27
  Speaker 9: Was quite different.
• 35:28
  Speaker 8: It was very focused on targets, the provision of fiber
• 35:32
  Speaker 8: products that set prices and initially through contracts with the
• 35:36
  Speaker 8: Crown Infrastructure Partners. I mean, what we see today is
• 35:40
  Speaker 8: that every compare to Australia, and this is all based
• 35:44
  Speaker 8: on public reports. It is not necessarily my own personal opinion.
• 35:48
  Speaker 8: But we know we have faster internet compared to Australia.
• 35:53
  Speaker 8: We also know that NBN is performing relatively well. There
• 35:57
  Speaker 8: are quite a lot of lessons that I can learn
• 35:59
  Speaker 8: from New Zealand from a fiber perspective. What we also know,
• 36:03
  Speaker 8: for example, is that New Zealand is currently ranks under
• 36:07
  Speaker 8: the top ten ninth out of thirty eight OCD countries,
• 36:13
  Speaker 8: whereas Australia is in a distant thirty of place. From
• 36:18
  Speaker 8: a respective on an international ladder, we are huge New
• 36:21
  Speaker 8: Zealand's fiber network is.
• 36:23
  Speaker 9: A huge success.
• 36:24
  Speaker 8: Also, further, if we think about downloaded speeds, for example,
• 36:29
  Speaker 8: we are currently the thirteen fatist in IRCd and that
• 36:33
  Speaker 8: is ahead of Australia, United Kingdom, Ireland and Germany. So yes,
• 36:40
  Speaker 8: we are still lagging behind countries such as Singapore, Korea, Iceland,
• 36:44
  Speaker 8: Spain and Japan. But that is also why it's so
• 36:48
  Speaker 8: critical for us to increase our coverage from eighty seven
• 36:51
  Speaker 8: percent to ninety five percent.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe there are plans to do that. There
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: is a scope for further investment in the network that
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: seems amenable to doing that, so we may actually get
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: to ninety five percent. In terms of, you know, the
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: weightless economy, which everyone tells us we need to move to,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: even from a sustainability point of view, what are you
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: sort of thinking in terms of the types of applications
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: and products and services that our businesses will increasingly be
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: selling overseas. I'm thinking of the likes of you know,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: wetter here, which makes very elaborate movies and is shipping
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: them around the world. You mentioned our gaming industry. Those
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: are obvious ones. What sort of other applications do you
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: think our businesses will increasingly be using high speed internet
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: to ship to the world.
• 37:40
  Speaker 8: Another couple of examples, say, is around any accounting systems
• 37:46
  Speaker 8: we can explore at Then if we think about meat
• 37:49
  Speaker 8: TECHSA medical technology, I mean we already have quite a
• 37:53
  Speaker 8: significant comparative advantage in that we can grow ad and
• 37:57
  Speaker 8: again that is with the underlying the fiber needtwork and
• 38:02
  Speaker 8: enable to add And I infurther to that is that
• 38:04
  Speaker 8: we just talked about AI as well and all the
• 38:07
  Speaker 8: future II applications, so that in itself can also enable
• 38:12
  Speaker 8: the growth of our whiteless X words.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Murray Rish, what do you think this says about so
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: called public private partnerships which really underpinn the ultra fast
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: broadband network. We've got I think a problem in New
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Zealand at the moment with infrastructure investment. There was a
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: lack of investment in the eighties and nineties, and then
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: two thousands there was a bit more investment in roads
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: and infrastructure like UFB, But this seems to be a
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: model that's worked very well for digital infrastructure. Do you
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: think there are parallels here with roading and water infrastructure
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: and other types of things that we could apply these
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: lessons to other things.
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: What I would say to that is, and this is
• 38:51
  Speaker 7: what LESA had emphasized, there were set targets with the
• 38:55
  Speaker 7: UFB rollout, and it was done in a particular way.
• 38:58
  Speaker 7: I mean, I guess the key takeaways for me would
• 39:02
  Speaker 7: be that given those targets, given that clarity, it can
• 39:05
  Speaker 7: be a successful way in which to raw out infrastructure
• 39:08
  Speaker 7: and investment. And it has been has been successful. You know,
• 39:11
  Speaker 7: the devil will be in the in the detail right
• 39:14
  Speaker 7: in terms of how it might be applied to other
• 39:16
  Speaker 7: infrastructure or other types of investments. But I guess what
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: this report is focused on is a successful rollout of it,
• 39:23
  Speaker 7: and it highlights some of the key features being those
• 39:26
  Speaker 7: performance targets and the like pet.
• 39:28
  Speaker 8: I think also just adding to that is that, I mean,
• 39:31
  Speaker 8: we have quite a lot of experts in our Delutte
• 39:34
  Speaker 8: infrastructure team and that will remind me every time that
• 39:38
  Speaker 8: a PPP construct for writing project is very different to
• 39:43
  Speaker 8: the public private partnership that we are talking about. Yeah,
• 39:46
  Speaker 8: but I still think that having that full sight is
• 39:49
  Speaker 8: really important. You know, doing it right on budget and
• 39:53
  Speaker 8: on time is really important. I do think this public
• 39:57
  Speaker 8: private partnership, even though it's digital, can also be considered
• 40:02
  Speaker 8: for our digital public infrastructure going forward. The other key
• 40:06
  Speaker 8: thing is, like any infrastructure investment, is you will only
• 40:10
  Speaker 8: really read benefits over the long term. So keeping that
• 40:14
  Speaker 8: in mind, keeping in mind at any decisions that we
• 40:16
  Speaker 8: make today for infrastructure investments will take a long time
• 40:21
  Speaker 8: to play off. But as we see, we've already reaped
• 40:24
  Speaker 8: sixteen percent of the productivity benefits, but the basin is
• 40:28
  Speaker 8: yet to come, so I four percent of the productivity
• 40:31
  Speaker 8: benefits we could realize that over the next ten years.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: None of it appears to be really difficult. It's just
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: it's a lot of small things, like getting small businesses,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: for instance, confident enough using digital tools, building their own websites,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: and then maybe looking ein voicing if they're working with
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: overseas partners. You know, we've done some work with an
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Asia Pacific to enable that to happen. So it seems
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: like it's it's not one massive thing, although AI collectively
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: will pretendly have a transformative effect on the economy. But
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: there's lots of things we can do now that other
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: countries are maybe a little bit ahead and to allow
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: us to read more of those productivity gains.
• 41:09
  Speaker 7: Exactly right, And I think the government also has a
• 41:12
  Speaker 7: crucial role in doing that, being an early adopter almost
• 41:15
  Speaker 7: to setting an example in terms of leveraging the network
• 41:20
  Speaker 7: and increasingly digitizing, which will also enable the private sector
• 41:24
  Speaker 7: to do so as well. So yeah, government has a
• 41:27
  Speaker 7: role to play.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. The government one, we've got Judith Collins
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: as the Minister for digitizing Government, so she's really passionate
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: about that. People will probably think of when they talk
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: about the government, Oh, you know, filing my tax return,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: stuff like that, maybe taling medicine in the health sect there,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: But I guess there's lots of other things as well,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: you know, for instance, education and even research, you know,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: and doing e research. We've got a lot of Crown
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: research institutes and universities as well. Is that of those
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: six things that you're recommending, is that actually really crucial
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: won The government is one of the biggest customers in
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: the country and one of the potentially one of the
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: biggest users of ultra fast broadband as well.
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: One of the six recommendations is that the government be
• 42:12
  Speaker 7: an early adopter here, so really harness that digital infrastructure
• 42:16
  Speaker 7: and be a bit of a bit of a leader
• 42:18
  Speaker 7: because they all add different kind of words out in
• 42:22
  Speaker 7: similar behavior from the private sector. So yeah, quite consistent
• 42:26
  Speaker 7: with what we've said in terms of how we realize
• 42:28
  Speaker 7: that future dividend.
• 42:29
  Speaker 8: Adding to that is that our views was that if
• 42:32
  Speaker 8: the government is an early adopter, could actually potentially inspire
• 42:36
  Speaker 8: industry to follow.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Finally, the digital equity piece is really important. You know,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: when I write about broadband and how great UFB is,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I just get a lot of people responding going, well,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I haven't got access to it, and I have to
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: rely on expensive alternatives like stylelink, which is which is great,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: but you know it's it's one hundred and fifty dollars
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: a month for the full speed version. So a lot
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: of people sort of like, well, what about us here
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: in rural areas? And then we have issues in even
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: in urban areas where households just can't afford to access it.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: How crucial is it that we we crack that digital
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: equity issue? And as you look around the world, are
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: there any initiatives or any leaders where it's obvious we
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: can learn from to try and do that.
• 43:22
  Speaker 8: The first step could also just be educating consumers, educating
• 43:27
  Speaker 8: households and educating businesses as well. The reason why I
• 43:31
  Speaker 8: think educating consumers around fiber and its benefit and households
• 43:36
  Speaker 8: is so important is just based on how regulation works
• 43:42
  Speaker 8: in New Zealand. Is the current wholesale providers of fiber
• 43:48
  Speaker 8: can only operate in a wholesale level off the market,
• 43:51
  Speaker 8: so I can't operate on retail as well. As a
• 43:55
  Speaker 8: result of that, there's a potential gap between the wholesale
• 43:58
  Speaker 8: level and the inconsuit. So by educating the end consumer
• 44:03
  Speaker 8: around the benefits of fiber, the technologies that's coming or
• 44:08
  Speaker 8: is it the evolution and a train in the mind,
• 44:10
  Speaker 8: can really support that decline and a gap between access
• 44:14
  Speaker 8: and updike.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. When I talk to
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: the telcos, they're basically saying for us to be able
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: to continue to invest in this network, whether it be
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: fiber or even mobile like five G going to six
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: G technology, they're saying, consumers are going to need to
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: realize the benefits of this technology. They sort of just
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: see these increases in capacity and speed as just a
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: thing that will always be there and always be relied on.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: But it's really expensive to do that. So unless consumers
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: recognize that there's a premium premium service should require premium pricing,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Unless we get our heads around that as a nation,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: it's going to be really difficult to justify big, multi
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: billion dollar investments to make even more of these networks.
• 44:59
  Speaker 8: In our report mentioned that as well. So for example,
• 45:03
  Speaker 8: if you think about a household today, on the average
• 45:06
  Speaker 8: you have about twenty two connected devices. So it's a
• 45:10
  Speaker 8: move from connecting individuals or households, but it's also connecting
• 45:16
  Speaker 8: to things. I mean, in the next by twenty thirty,
• 45:20
  Speaker 8: the average will move from twenty two connected devices to
• 45:25
  Speaker 8: forty four connected devices by twenty thirty. So that movement
• 45:29
  Speaker 8: and the development of technologies and consumer preferences, that is
• 45:34
  Speaker 8: just re emphasizing the importance of our fiber network. I
• 45:38
  Speaker 8: mean always just take it for for granted.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: In a background, just said one other question I've for
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: gotten to ask you about, which maybe mayor issue you
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: might have an answer to this, to what extent are
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: these really significant gains we see from UFB into the
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: future reliant on cloud infrastructure. We've got the hyperscalers, Google,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Microsoft and AWS are building infrastructure in New Zealand. Sure,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: at the moment our businesses are sending their data to
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: hyperscale facilities offshore. But that flurry of investment in the cloud,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: including from the Data com and Spark, is that really
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: going to enable us to get a lot more out
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: of UFB as well.
• 46:21
  Speaker 7: I might answer this in two parts and see how
• 46:23
  Speaker 7: it falls. Our report focuses on the fiber network in particular,
• 46:28
  Speaker 7: so how the increase in uptake and speed will result
• 46:33
  Speaker 7: in us doing things better, so a productivity uplift and
• 46:36
  Speaker 7: therefore a bit of a benefit going forward. In relation
• 46:40
  Speaker 7: to those hyperscalers and data centers, absolutely, they're crucial, crucial
• 46:44
  Speaker 7: to this, and I guess what I would say is
• 46:46
  Speaker 7: that the fiber network is again a pretty critical piece
• 46:50
  Speaker 7: of infrastructure. They will enable us to utilize that the
• 46:53
  Speaker 7: latency the speed of the Internet connection will mean we
• 46:56
  Speaker 7: can leverage those data centers and make better use of
• 47:00
  Speaker 7: use of those Without the fiber connectivity. Without the fiber network,
• 47:03
  Speaker 7: the benefits you might get from those hyperscalars might be
• 47:06
  Speaker 7: curtailed or were limited.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm really glad that Deloitte did this study.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: It didn't appear to have any agenda in doing it either.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Two economists who have a background at the Commerce Commission
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: so have been analyzing this from a competition point of
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: view at one point. The economics of competition are now
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: at a consulting firm that is very interested in how
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: we're using technology. So I think that the two big
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: takeaways from this are concerned about small business, especially with
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Digital Boost seems to be winding down or has wound down.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: The funding isn't there anymore. So we had an initiative
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: to really encourage small businesses to take up cloud computing,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: e commerce. Do we actually have a government drive anymore
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: to do that? It doesn't look like it. And you know,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: if they're not taking up simple things like social media
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: and e commerce platforms and those sorts of tools, what
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: are they going to do with AI? So are we
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: going to lag in AI as well? And the other
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: thing is, you know, a lot of this is predicated
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: on we're going to fill the pipes, these bigger pipes
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: more capacity with AI related applications. What's that actually going
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: to look like? And I guess we were asking that
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: same question. I remember I was when we were on
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: five megabit per second connections and being told we were
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: moving to hundreds of megabits per second. Other than you know,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: live streaming and gaming and that sort of stuff, what
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: were we going to use it for? But we've used
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of that capacity. We are using it and really,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: you know, not just richer sources of media, but more devices.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: They said there's something like twenty four devices per household
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: going to forty five in the need decades. So the
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: IoT revolution, having smart fridge is having smite everything in
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: our homes. We will actually be using the best part
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: of a gigabit connection within a decade.
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: I think it's one of those things where and you
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: kind of saw this in the move from dial up
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: to faster broadband in the beginning, which was that you know,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: we started with these really bare bones HTML websites literally
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: just text and a couple of small, low res images,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: and then the more the faster we got, the higher
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: resolution everything got. We fill the capacity as it arrives.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think we're going to reach a point where
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: we run out of ways to use up data. The
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: more we have, the more we all use. Yeah, I
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: think I wonder about the diminishing returns of value on
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: the faster speed, whether we're actually just filling it with
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: junk or whether we're actually going to get value out
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: of it, And AI seems to be one of the
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: areas where that could potentially help to boost that value.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: So and it turned out to be a great return
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: on investment, know in terms of the money we've invested
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: versus the value that's mirrored by other studies overseas, for
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: every dollar you put into fiber, you get a really
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: healthy return. That issue they identified though eighty seven percent coverage,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: seventy five percent uptake. And I wonder if a large
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: component of that is that the internet providers have been
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: diverting people away from fiber to their own wireless broadband
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: products because they get a better margin on that. They
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: don't have to pay Corus and the other UFB providers
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: a big wholesale fee. And that's where Liza was talking about.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Regulation is one of those six things in future. So
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: does the government need to do something to change the
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: settings here to make it more attractive for ISPs to
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: actually use this goal plated network rather than trying to
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: go around it with their own products.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: Maybe I actually think that event actually market forces might
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: sort it out because fiber is better. Have you ever
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: had one of these calls from your ISP saying, hey,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: you should really be on fixed wireless.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: I haven't, but my father did and he went on
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: to it.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Oh no, see, I got one, and I'm like, you
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: are a horrid percent barking up the wrong tree because
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: I know what my data usage is, Like, I know
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: that I stream in four K regularly at high peak
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: area at high peak times. I need consistency because I
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: do a lot of work online. They do podcasting. I
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: need all these things. Why on earth are you calling me?
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: And I wrote a story recently we're talking about a
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: forsythe Bar report, where one of the analysts said that
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: he sees fixed wireless as a legacy technology now, which
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: I think is quite strong words, and that connections to
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: it are going to start to decline from about twenty
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: twenty seven because people are going to see.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: That fiber is better.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Chorus is still releasing these really good low cost plans
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: for consumers, and then you're getting a lot of downe
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: with pressure on costs of fiber as well from virtual
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: network operators the likes of SkyTV and that kind of thing,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: who are saying we'll use broadband as a lost leader
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: because the margins are relatively low anyway. So people are
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: going to want to get on fiber eventually, especially as
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: fixed wireless limitations start to become more obvious. And then
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: in the rural area, starlink still offers a much better
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: option in terms of speed, so and I don't think
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: we're going to see it continue to take up market
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: share of fiber.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: I guess the real takeaway for other infrastructure projects is
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: you've got to have really firm targets and be monitoring
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: that all the way. That's what the Digital Europe thing
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: is doing. That's what they did with the Yeah, I
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: remember all the announcements and pressure releases where we're getting
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: every six months, this is how many households we've reached,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: this is how many accounts have been turned on. It
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: was sort of like really easy to track progress on that.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: It hasn't been on some of the other infrastructure projects.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: And I think that accountability really drives a project forward.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think we have to remember that just
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: because broadband was hugely successful as a PPP as a
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: public private partnership doesn't automatically mean they all are. They're
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: still going to need to have all of these checks
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: and balances and things in place to make sure that
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: to make sure that the outcomes that we are looking
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: for are matt because it doesn't automatically mean success just
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: because it has before.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Absolutely so. Thanks so much to Lisa vandermerv and Majoorish
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Prasad from Deloitte Access Economics for their insights on their report.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: We've a link to it in the show notes. Find
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: them in the podcast section at Business deesk dot co
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: dot nz.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: And that's where you can stream this podcast in full
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: every week, and it's also available on iHeartRadio or your
• 53:56
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