Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Investing towards a more sustainable world - Tom Jaffrey

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Investing towards a more sustainable world - Tom Jaffrey · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, financial planner life.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's me again, Charlie Scott, back in the hot seat, middle of another heat wave.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Here we go again.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a guest today here who I'm so excited to bring to your ears.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Today I've got Tom Jaffery from Blackfinch Group, who's here to just talk about his journey into financial services and his path to where he is now, particularly within the business that he's working in and the mission that they have to make the financial services industry a better place.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: So hi Tom, welcome.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Charlie, I'm I'm very well, thank you.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're more than welcome.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: More than welcome.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: How are you surviving in the heat wave?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Doing all right?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm okay.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Very hot.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yesterday was particularly bad.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was on the road most of the day, so so it was it wasn't too bad because aircon in the car was was nice, but stepping out into client meetings was was particularly tough.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can imagine, I can imagine.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's um something we're all becoming a little bit more adapted with now, I find, which is potentially a scary thing.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, you know, the maps that I've seen recently of the UK, we're looking dry and crusty.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking very, very beige.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's very, very crispy around where I am.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: But Fab, so I think really first off, I just want to dive into sort of your journey to where you are now.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how did you find yourself within the position you are at Blackfinch and what was the path that you took to get there?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess the best place to start is always at the beginning.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was quite a convoluted beginning, to be honest with you.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I never knew or thought I would work in financial services from when I left school or even following university.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I actually did a graduate diploma in law after reading ancient history at uni.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So not on the economic side or not on the kind of math side whatsoever.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but after doing my graduate diploma in law, I quickly realized that I didn't want to be a solicitor.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that wasn't a profession for me.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I actually was working in London as a waiter for um for a burger restaurant for about a year.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I got an internship while I was in London through my network, so just through networking with with different individuals, different people, and got an internship at a private bank in London.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then once I got that internship, um, I thought this was my opportunity, and I just tried to know and meet every single person at that institution until they gave me a full-time job.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I was that annoying guy who was walking around uh the bank saying hi to everyone, asking if I could help them, if I could uh learn what they were doing.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then someone within their Middle Eastern team actually gave me a job um as a kind of a private banking assistant.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and at that role, I kind of got a bit of an exposure into financial services, specifically private banking um and how to manage relationships with high net worth and ultra high net worth clients, but in mid the Middle East, so it's super fascinating, very interesting, very different to um kind of what I do now.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then through that role, I took another role managing uh my own book of clients that was UK focused.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, really interesting, really fascinating.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually kind of a financial planning, financial advisor role.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was an area of the world that I didn't know anything really about.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I learned loads, but I knew that I wanted to get involved in investing money and being exposed to kind of the investment process and why asset allocators or fund managers, discretionary investment managers make the decisions that they make.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so then I moved actually into the investment office of this private bank to get closer to the investment teams, which was great because it showed me under the bonnet why people or why, you know, chief investment offices, why fund analysts, investment analysts make the decisions that they're making when structuring portfolios.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that technical detail was great, and but it wasn't an area that kind of I think fitted with me personally as easy as say a sales role.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So from there I moved across into um more of it more of a sales role at a much larger um institution, asset management institution, what a global one, um, to give me a bit more of a um exposure to kind of global distribution, global asset management.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then um and then from there, I kind of thought I wanted, I'd got exposure, 10 years of exposure and experience working for big organizations, um, a global one, a UK-focused one.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So then I really wanted to work for a smaller company where I could have a big impact to help it grow, but a company that had a focus with ESG at the very forefront of its mind.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I was kind of stumbled across Blackfinch and have ended up where I am now.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, I love that when you said um sort of a smaller firm, bigger impact.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually say that a lot to my candidates and my in my day job in the recruitment world, I say, you know, there is so many benefits that come with a variety of different, you know, large corporates down to the smaller boutiques.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And having that smaller firm, that bigger impact, it is a way where you can, I mean, you've got that 10 years' experience, you've got that perspective, you've got that scope, and you can really bring that to the table.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing I like when I did, you know, did my reading on Blackfinch, and I always love asking around the name, but I found out the re the reasoning behind the name of Blackfinch, and obviously it's to do with um very to do with Darwin and his theory of evolution, and how when he was in the Galapagos and how he studied all the different birds and looked at all the varieties of birds, you know, different beak shapes, different colours.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the one that seemed to be the most evolutionary evolved was the blackfinch.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that on the website it said that you know it came into initiation on his birthday.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think to tire your company into sort of you know, such a pioneer of evolution and very in sync with what we're trying to do in terms of conservation, particularly when it comes back to the Galapagos, as someone who's you know, environmental girl, that I loved that.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: I loved that because that's the ethos that you can bring into it, isn't it?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to why we've called ourselves Blackfinch, why we've aligned ourselves with Darwin and his evolutionary principles.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um also as a business, we're constantly evolving, we're constantly looking to make improvements, to change and adapt ourselves to to kind of the the regulatory framework or the environmental framework or you know the world around us.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and again, that's something that definitely drew me to Blackfinch when um I was looking to make the move.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: I loved when you said evolving.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: I always say it to people, um, evolving like a Pokemon.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's never it's always never ending, isn't it?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when I mean, I was fortunate that I got quite a lot of my experience when I was younger at a larger, larger institutions that could help with a lot of the training, that could help with a lot of um kind of giving you a lot of support in terms of creating your building your knowledge and your understanding, and also how to operate in the corporate, commercial, professional world.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we I was fortunate enough to then be able to then use that for the next stage of my journey, if that makes sense.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So somewhere that um can benefit from that experience to then try and help them, help them grow and help them get better and all of that good stuff.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: It lets you communicate with anyone, doesn't it?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you speak to a variety of people on a daily basis, it breaks down those barriers and you just have that human-to-human interaction of you know, you're trying to help, you're just trying to, you know, give them a service which will change things for the better for them, but also for the planet and for people in the planet.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so, in terms of sort of qualifications and the route that you went down in terms of qualifications, you mentioned you had, you know, you studied ancient history, and I love that because it's I love a non-convenient path, like not convenient conventional, non-conventional path.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess stepping into the world where it's very regulated in this industry, you have to take qualifications to be able to get to certain levels.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: What path did you go down with the qualifications?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Just for people who might be listening who are thinking, this sounds like something I want to do.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I uh so I did A levels, I did uni degree, then the graduate diploma room law.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time I'd done all of that, I was kind of done with professional qualifications.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I I stopped at that point, and I did take, I mean, my role at Coots, where I was working in at the private bank, I did my mortgage qualifications because that was part of the role that I did.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I was a qualified mortgage um advisor.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then I just took a step back and I thought, what is it that I want to understand?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do I want to learn?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually took the path of trying to learn from my colleagues, my peers, and from the industry.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I I didn't do or I haven't completed any other professional qualifications up to this point.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: But what I've tried to do is leverage my own experience and my own kind of environment to help me learn from others around me, be it maybe a fund manager, be it someone that works in the industry, it could be a financial planner, a financial advisor, anyone that's interesting or got anything interesting to say.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm currently doing a course.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's not a formal qualification, but it's a course given by Oxford University on private markets to upskill myself in um kind of private equity, private credit, private infrastructure, that kind of asset class, um, because Blackfinch has a um a specialism in venture capital, and also we operate quite quite significantly in the kind of renewable energy space, which is private market space.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really a six-week course to upskill myself in the area, give it, give me the kind of quick hit that I need to allow myself to talk confidently without actually going through the formal process of getting a formal qualification.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not saying that that's the right way to go about things, but for me, it it seems to have worked.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I I feel like you can learn a lot from other independent individuals.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can learn a lot from internet through reading loads without actually going down the formal qualification route.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but for me, in the role that I do as a distribution specialist or a sales specialist, then that's all I think I really need to have and be able to leverage the kind of the knowledge and experience that I've got to be able to talk sensibly with with my clients and potentially future prospects.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, 100% agree.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think even from my side of things, I want to understand the industry I recruit within.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: It makes me feel more confident talking to individuals and to do that course, gives you that sort of grounding and you know what you're talking about, and also you can get on a level with people about it.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's I think it's quite remarkable actually that for you, you've just taken the experience from people around you, which goes to show that yes, there are qualifications out there that can put you on a certain path.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, if you've got the gumption and you ask a question, no such thing as a silly question.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: I know there's a few different areas that you operate within in terms of what you provide in a service.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I think let's just take a bit of a deep dive into Blackfinch.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So as a company, the Blackfinch group, we like broadly speaking, we've we've got three distinct pillars, um, investment pillars that we operate in.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So from a high level, we manage money and we're an investment manager, an asset manager.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the three pillars that we operate in target or service, I guess, three different types of clients.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got um Blackfinch Asset Management, um, which is an asset management division that manage multi-asset portfolios, all of which are actively screened from an ESG point of view.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when I say actively screened, I'm I'm not talking about negatively screening.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about a kind of a process in which we review, we analyze, and we understand what we're looking to buy, and we look look at evidence and what evidence maybe a fund manager, but an active fund manager or passive fund house may give to us to show to show us that they're pushing forward the ESG um agenda going forward.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we've also got a venture capital division, um, which is called Black Finch Ventures.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: With inside that arm, we invest in early stage growth companies, um, all of which are using technology in some way to break into a new market, disrupt a new market.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and clients, um, mainly advisors or or ultra high net worth or high net worth investors are looking to gain exposure or or access those companies to give themselves exposure to that kind of early stage growth company and those the growth potentials, but also a lot of the generous tax incentive advantage or tax incentives that come with investing in early stage growth companies in the UK.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the third pillar of our business, um, we invest in renewable energy, so UK onshore wind and UK onshore solar.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we own uh a number of different solar and wind farms up and down the UK from kind of Inverness all the way down to Cornwall.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then we also have a couple of lending businesses where we lend money money to property developers or business owners who are looking to borrow finance to complete a development or to you know push forward their business through securing some lending against some business assets.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that part of the business um is really designed for UK investors who are looking to mitigate um inheritance tax through the use of business relief.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, definitely some.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think renewable energy and the venture capital is, you know, you've got people who are, I love the word disrupt there.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: I love an industry disruptor, people coming in and really changing the way things are done.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what needs to happen.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think 10 years ago the conversation was nowhere near as loud as it is now.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think from an industry perspective, the momentum is picking up and people are becoming a lot more aware.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that as people coming through generationally, the people who want to invest their money, would you say that there's like a generational split of who wants to step into having, you know, an ESG-focused portfolio?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or would you say you're seeing a lot more of your sort of older clients coming through and being like, actually, no, I want to step into this side of the industry as well.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: I want to incorporate this in my portfolio.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think definitely the younger generation are more switched on when it comes to the impact of their portfolio, their investments, and what their investments are doing.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to see that the older generation, some of some of them are switched on, but generally speaking, most of them care about their returns and care about their returns first.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: But where I find that quite interesting is I think when you're looking into the future and you're looking into generating return into the future, my my view is that investments that have a strong grasp of ESG fundamentals will actually help you generate a return into the future, which I think that connection and I think that understanding with slightly older generation who tend to have a bit more money is missing slightly because I don't think that's been the case historically.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, you've seen over the last six months with the current market correction that we're going through, um, that it's actually been the dirtiest stocks or the dirtier investments from an ESG point of view that have performed quite well.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um thinking of like your oil stocks or your your kind of financial companies that tend to have not as good ESG ratings as some of your other investments.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, I think when you're looking five years or 10 years into the future, it will actually be those ESG high scorers that will actually generate your returns into the future.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I do think that the younger generation have a have a much better grasp on it and it means much more to them because I think it's become much more of a talked-about topic, and you're just much more switched on.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've been born with it about the with the conversation, as opposed to trying to develop or um change your understanding from what you knew from the 70s or the 80s.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I know I, you know, 10 years ago when I was 16 and I was looking at right, what do I want to go into?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I chose environmental science.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was, you know, the 16-year-old who wanted to save the world.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I butted heads a lot with my dad because he just couldn't, he couldn't understand.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, you know, there's so much more in life you need to worry about, Charlotte.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need to look into, you know, saving the pandas or going to the rainforest.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And he would always say to me, he'd be like, you need to go to the top.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: It starts with money.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Money is what determines a lot.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: So when I look at people in the industry who, and you know, navigating myself in the industry I didn't study in, I'm seeing people who they have a lot of power in their hands to actually do a lot of good.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I think a company like Blackfinch Group, you know, they've really structured themselves in a way to cover a lot of bases within what people can do to help.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as well, in terms of the where you see Blackfinch going, what do you see for the future of Blackfinch then?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see it, where do you see it going in that direction?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's a great question.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think um I think we are on a trajectory of growth at the moment.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think as we get our our brand, as our name gets out there, as our products get a longer track record, I think we'll grow as a business.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the product set that we've got is is pretty set.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think we'll we'll stick with those products and we'll look to get the word out and the message out across the advisor community as much as possible.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think as a company, one of the benefits of working with a smaller company that has that it operates in a bit more of a flexible manner compared to a bigger company is that as we do grow and we do listen to our client base and we do you know identify issues or opportunities, we're able to then adapt and change our business.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and which again I think is important.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't be surprised if you know, if we move into the future, there are tweaks and changes that happen within Blackfinch to make us better, make us stronger, change anything that um you know needs to be changed with inside the company um or within any of the product range.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I think as we grow, I think hopefully within Blackfinch we'll you know grow um our assets under management, our products will get will become stronger, um, and then there may be tweaks um with inside the business as well that you know makes us operate much more effectively or efficiently.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we've done quite recently is to stick bees on our roof, which which again was just a small, a small challenge with I love that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's great, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: You have a pop-up on your lunch break and go see them and yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's amazing.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the thing, as well as you know, as a company, and you obviously you've got your agenda, you've got your mission, you do what you can to really chase that dream.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And even here at you know, Recruit UK, we've submitted our B Corp now, um, and we have implemented we've submitted our B Corp.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited, but we've implemented so many things, which you know, every member of staff gets five hours a month to volunteer.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a real sort of tangible substance to having a company where yes, you you're doing an amazing thing within the industry, you're giving people these options to use their money for good and still focus on getting a return on it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: But to stick bees on your roof and get involved in local initiatives, that's also part of ESG, in my opinion, making sure that your company as a whole, their impact in the local community, on the environment, looking after staff, it goes above and beyond the service you're providing.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: It also is an inwards reflection as well.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And bees do.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um, you know, first and foremost, we we we've got our investment products that we want to achieve the objectives for the investors that are going in them.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: But as a business, we need to ensure that we've got the structures in place that align with all of our principles.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And looks, I think sometimes as a business, you might get things wrong, but you just need to correct them and make sure they don't happen again.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know Blackfinch have recently just implemented or put in place a sustainability council that have got different people from different parts of the business working together to write the policies to set our ESG or sustainability agenda that covers everything from how you know our lending team decide to operate or how they lend money in a you know in an ESG-focused way, all the way to kind of what's our anti-belief policy like with inside the company.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's it's things like that that that we're doing and we're implementing.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the the B Corp thing is definitely on our agenda and it's something that we'll be focused on at some point.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's just there's a long list of things that as a small company you need to you need to get done and and you need to sort out.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, definitely.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when we last spoke, um I remember we touched on asset classes, and you were sort of discussing your opinions on you know, looking at different asset classes and not really excluding certain ones, even though they might be the ones that you think you should exclude.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I want to ask you a bit more around that, really.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so within within our asset management division, which is where we manage a range of multi asset portfolios that investors can invest into via their maybe their ISER or general investment accounts.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the team have got a very firm belief that active engagement is that what they think the best way in in pushing forward the ESG agenda items.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say active engagement, we're talking about understanding what the fund managers that we're investing in are doing to um push forward social change or environmental change or to understand good corporate governance.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what that means is that they will listen to and understand the team will listen to and understand every type of investment or across all the different asset classes across all the different sectors and make an informed decision as to whether or not there is change happening in that space.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the most interesting example, I think, and probably the most common is the oil and gas sector.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: You can it's very easy to say, you know what, I'm not investing in oil and gas, or maybe I'm not interested in investing in tobacco or anything that's got you know pornography associated to it, which is fine, but those industries are also, especially if you take oil and gas, they're spending a fortune on research and development that um are probably going to be is probably going to be the capital flow that's going to change our future in terms of green energy.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of need those guys in the room to invest and to spend the money on RD for in order for us as a society to get to where we need to get to.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And actually excluding them from your portfolio or saying you're not going to invest in them would actually starve them of the capital that they need to get us there.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same with stocks, um, certain big big stocks that might generate a very small proportion of their revenue from you know adult entertainment.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you exclude them from your portfolio, you you are excluding them from all of the good work they're doing in, say, the 5G space or the digital infrastructure space or getting um, you know, 5G to local communities down in Cornwall or across other parts of the world.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's that's where we sit and that's where we want to position ourselves.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: We want to understand what these businesses are doing, what these fund managers are doing in their specific sectors, in their specific fields.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then we can make an informed decision as to whether or not we want to hold them in our portfolios.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, if an oil and gas company was to say to us that they're not investing any money in renewable energy and they're not changing their business model or structure and they're just going to generate all their money from thermal coal, then it's not something that we're likely to touch in any single way.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: But if they can show us that they've got a five, 10, 15, 20-year plan to change their business from coal to renewables, we want to understand that and we want to be invested in that area.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's that's a really thought-provoking thing, really, because it's you would think, you know, oil and gas quite a contentious topic to bring into having an asset class, investing in it when you think an ESG.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: But you're absolutely right, you know, with that and much sort of capital behind them, the energy that they can really put into the scientists developing something that might save us.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's I think it's more inclusive and it brings into the conversation that actually seeing something as a big divide, like you do this and it's not good for the environment, I don't want anything to do with you.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: A, it will make that sort of alienate them and make them not feel part of the movement.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas actually we need to bring everybody on board, everybody needs to be on the room, in the room, even if, you know, past 70 years they've been mining coal and oil and gas and having oil spills.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like you make mistakes, like you said earlier, you make some mistakes that you've got to evolve through it and bring those people into the conversation, which I do I love that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a great approach.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I and these companies tend to be publicly listed companies.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the shareholders have uh a huge sway and a huge kind of voting power in terms of changing those companies for for the better.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And although, let's say, Charlie, you own shares in one of our port, you know, in that one of our portfolios, then you know, in theory, that means you have a say in an ownership in you know parts of some of these companies.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: But you on your own, you're not going to make much of a difference.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: But if if all of the investors, single investors, are then pooling their capital into funds that are having a big say, then it it can have a real fundamental difference, and that can actually change these companies for the better, which again is something that we like.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess as well, you know, people go where the money goes.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if these big companies think that people want to invest in this, they're going to start putting their energy into that because they'll want people to invest in them.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a knock-on effect, isn't it, in that sense.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, definitely, definitely.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all it's evidence-based.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if these companies can evidence that they're pushing forward gender equality or they're pushing forward, you know, getting rid of bad deforestation from their supply chains, for example, if they can show that through evidence, then again, I think investors are going to like that story and are more likely to invest in there.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of speaking with financial advisors, then, what has been sort of themes that have come up in conversations that they're having to navigate with clients?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Are they saying, you know, how do I how do I discuss this with my clients?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Or are they all pretty switched on and going, yeah, no, this is great, we'll we'll involve this.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what are the advisors that you're speaking to?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: How are they reacting to this?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's it's really varied.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think some advisors are really switched on and they take a real active approach to understanding what's going on in inside the portfolios.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some advisors are not as fast.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think it comes down to whether or not their clients are interested in just the returns, or whether or not they're interested in what's actually going on inside the portfolio from an ESG point of view.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think across the board it's kind of 50-50.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we are seeing more and more advisors becoming switched on and aware and asking a few more questions.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think I do feel for advisors though, because I think this space is extremely saturated at the moment.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of information coming out there about ESG and about how ESG is implemented inside the portfolios.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that probably a lot of advisors are probably turned off by the topic a little bit just because it's it's overload.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I think it's important, and I think it's important to keep your finger on the pulse when it comes to what different asset managers are doing with ESG and how it is integrated inside the portfolios, as as however boring as it might sound from an advisor's point of view.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, definitely.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of noise at the moment in terms of you know people throwing around ESG, and there's even discussions around if that's the right term to really use for it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in terms of advisors looking at their portfolios, we know that things need to be done to tackle the climate crisis.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: And even in terms of you know, the cost of living crisis at the moment, there's a lot of different contenders of issues that clients are facing.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's more just about doing good in the in their advice and for clients to do good as well.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and have you faced many barriers, I'd say?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, have you encountered anything where you're like, oh, I didn't expect this to be a barrier, but this is this is coming up a lot?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you get barriers all the time.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you you get, you know, maybe your returns aren't as good as another provider over a certain period.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you could argue that is that because of the ESG analysis, or you're not picking picking circus certain stocks.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's a barrier that comes up.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: But that's in that situation, we just want to be very explicit in terms of our approach and why we stick to our approach and why we think it's beneficial.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that gives us comfort and and we're happy, provided we're you know telling advisors exactly what we're doing and how we're doing it, and what we're not.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the point around we're acting, we're engaging actively and not negatively screening anything outside of our portfolios.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then again, the the barrier that we get often is you know, my clients don't care, so um they're not interested in an ESG-focused portfolio, they're not interested in um the environment or necessarily anything to do with ESG.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: All they care about is hitting their objectives um and their returns on a year or uh over a five-year or 10-year period.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in in case in that barrier, it's I go back to the point that I touched on at the beginning that if you're looking into the long term, you really do need to be focused on ESG fundamentals in order to generate that return looking into the future.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's it's a barrier that sometimes is is insurmountable.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think with time as well, it will come down, you know.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think with time, as you know, the sort of demographics of clients that are coming through, it will change and people will come through.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you know, the younger generations coming through.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: I also think as well, it's worth like, you know, there are individuals I speak to who are, you know, not from the younger generations, as you know, I don't like to divide by age, but they are also, you know, listening and they're waking up and they're bringing their energy and they're like, no, okay, I know I've slept on this for 40 years, but I'm here and now I'm listening and I really want to engage.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, and I guess, you know, in terms of yourself in the industry as well, I think one of the things about the financial plan of life is we talk about the human side of it.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're looking, you know, I try not to look at the news and doom scroll, as they say, because it is just overwhelming at the moment.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's the fires and you know, ice caps melting and lakes drying out.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: It can get quite heavy on your mental health, I think, when you look at that side of things.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think within the area you're operating within, it probably feels quite motivating at times to know that you're doing all this work with these amazing companies, you're working with the venture capital, the asset management, the renewables.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: But would you ever say there's times where you sort of struggle with the mental health side of things of it or encounter things where you're like, okay, this is this is hard today?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all always.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think um you can always, I'm personally, I'm always I am a half-glass full kind of guy, so I'm always quite optimistic, just in general, for my my personality.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there are times where you think, you know, this is really tough, or that you you're you're questioning um some of the methodologies out there, or because there's so many different views and ESG sustainability and how to approach the topic is so subjective, then you do have to, you know, take everything in and understand everything, understand everyone's point of view, and why one point of view is you know understood by a certain party, and one point of view is understood by another certain party, which which can be quite confusing, a bit daunting, which again can have a bit of an impact on kind of your own thought process and your own understanding of the topic.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think for me it's just about understanding and trying to take in as much as as possible and trying to understand what everyone's doing or what certain industries are doing in the space toward, push forward the ESG agenda items for the better.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because fundamentally, I think most people are decent people and are trying to make a decent decision and are trying to put get us to the place that we need to get to.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I just think it's going to take time, and the world is such a complicated place that to navigate it and to get everyone where we need to get to will take time.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so that's why I don't get too bogged down with all of the negative, the short-term negativity, but try and focus on kind of long-term.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, would I want to live in a world today or 40 years ago?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably today because of all of the changes that has happened in that for in those 40 years for all of the reasons.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you were from different areas, different backgrounds, different societies, if you were an environmentalist then compared to now, it's probably a much better situation.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we can lose sight of that, and that's kind of taking a longer term term approach.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think short term, yeah, you can get really bogged down and it can be you know have an impact on your mental health.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I try not to focus too much on the short term and and think about all the all the positives over the longer term.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, like someone who works in investment management.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Think of the long term.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: But it is true, it is true.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in terms of people looking at the returns on their investments as well, we're already seeing how environmental, you know, the increase in um, you know, terrible storms and heat waves and increased sort of weather systems which are being detrimental to us, things that we're investing in now aren't going to be as stable in the future if the climate continues to go in the direction it is.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: So no matter if you're putting your money into something which seems stable now, gives you a great return, if we keep going sort of blindly down a road where we don't think about what the impact's going to be like in 10, 15 years, that's going to become less like stable and it's not going to bring you as good a return.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the return that we need to also recognize, and it ties in with another podcast episode I did with um the Global Returns Project, whereas the returns are felt globally, you know, the fact that in 20, 30, 50 years, even the biodiversity on the planet could look so different, you know, people might even know what a rhino looks like in 100 years.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: That is a return in itself.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it comes down to individual values and what people resonate with.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when the world has been through so much change as it has in the last few years, having a glass half-full mentality when you're working in this part of the industry is exactly what clients need.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: They need someone who's got that scope to look at it and go, no, this is good.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is doing good, and this is making the world a better place through this.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the clients, you know, they could be combating maybe a business owner who's gone through the pandemic and has no idea how to make it out the other side because they're still suffering from it.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then you've got a family who, you know, they're just trying to figure out how to put food on the table.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's such a multidisciplinary, such a convoluted topic that not everyone has the time to actually sit and think, how can I help the planet today?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because they could be having their own struggles.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's nice to have people in the industry who can sort of hold that beacon up and be like, this is how you can help on this side of things.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Let me handle it and I'll I'll do the rest for you.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's access to information and you know, relaying that information in an easily and easily digestible manner, right?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: So clear, clear commentary in terms of this is why we've invested into this fund or this company, this is what they're all about, but this is also part of their company that's doing all this amazing good.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take, for example, you know, Proctor and Gamble, who are a huge, huge, you know, company, global company that we've probably got cupboards.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: The cupboards behind me is probably full of PNG stuff.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a couple of years ago, they changed their supply chain to strip out all deforestation, like bad deforestation from the supply chains.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: We probably don't know that.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, most people don't know that, but that's something that that we know and we understand.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been an example that we've pumped out to some of our investors.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that that that kind of information that I think is out there, and there's all this stuff that's going on, because humans are, you know, are fantastic and we're amazing, and that there's lots of amazing stuff going on.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I just don't think maybe your your average journey investor knows exactly what's going on with inside inside their portfolios, which is where where we we try and help.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the thing as well, is I always think humans generally, we're we all just want to do good.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think we're all we have a natural instinct to help, you know, in an office environment when I'm working with my colleagues.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: If I ask a question, I know there's about five people jumping like, oh yeah, yeah, this, this, this.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in day-to-day life, humans are like that as well.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I do genuinely believe that with the climate crisis, with environmental action that needs to happen, it will happen.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think COVID was scary.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: We got through it, we're still pulling ourselves through it.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we've now got the time and the energy and the there's been enough awareness raised, I think, that people are now putting enough energy into it, that it's the wheels are in motion and things are going to happen for sure.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in terms of, I guess, you know, people listening then who potentially might be wanting to step into this side of the industry, potentially they're a fund manager who's like, oh, I don't actually really know what's going on in this portfolio on that side of things.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: And they want to think, how can I get into this side of the industry?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: What would your advice be to them?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think um well, what's helped me throughout the course of my career so far is to not shut any doors.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: So just to keep all doors open, um, identify what you what you really don't like, or maybe some of your weaknesses, and try and move away from anything you don't really like, or maybe like pocket your weaknesses and then really play to your strengths.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: So keep all your doors open, play to your strengths, and and learn as much as much as you can by speaking to people.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: So speak to people that operate in this industry, that may be a fund manager, it might be a financial advisor, it might be someone who's a solicitor or an accountant that has networks that operate within certain spheres that give you access to information.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the more information you have, the more you read, the more you expose yourself to the types of topics that you want to get involved in.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that will only help you kind of build as a person and build your knowledge and understanding and ultimately confidence in talking about this area.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think my advice would just be just to try and be a sponge and make as many contacts, build your network as much as big as possible, um, and listen.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, listen to it as much as possible.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: I always like to sort of in terms of asking questions on this podcast, I think it's always good to talk about, yes, we focus on the positive and and how where we're going and what the mission is, but what would you say has been your own sort of biggest learning curve in this process for you?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, biggest learning curve, I think uh you you've got to be patient.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think um when I was younger, I was definitely not patient.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you think that you probably know a little bit more than you do, and I think you can be a little bit impatient in trying to get places too quickly.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you back yourself and you focus on educating yourself and being patient, um, I think you'll get you'll get much further.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: It might take some time, but you'll get much further and you can build your career into a much better place.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for me, I think it was learning probably the hard way to be patient um and to yeah, to to rely on on education and surrounding yourself with with with with really good people.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think without that, it becomes more of a an uphill battle and an uphill fight, um, which no one really wants.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean we learn a lot on the on the uphill fight.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: You do learn.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would I would I would agree with that.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And some of the biggest mistakes I've made have been the ones that I have learned from the most.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, so you you've got to make them to then look back and be like, you know, it wasn't too bad, or I I learned loads.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's um it's just being mature enough and being um kind of focused enough to to yeah to be patient and to to take on as much as possible from an educational point of view.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I um I had a conversation the other day, um, and it was a really mundane, sort of jovial conversation where I think I was making dinner and I was like, oh, I can't be bothered to peel these potatoes.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then someone said, Your ancestors peeled potatoes.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: You should peel potatoes.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously it was such a satirical comment, but I was there like, that's really true.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: And where you said there, you know, wanting to get somewhere quicker than potentially you should.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is a great moment taking back and being like, right, you might not be the financial advisor you want to be or the investment manager you want to be.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: You might be in a back office support role.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, there is so much that you can learn in that environment where 10 years down the line, you'll be like, wow, that taught me so much.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you even said that when talking about your career, you know, the journey you took to get to where you are now.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: So much of that was necessary.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, you said you were a waiter, I've been in hospitality, and I always say to people that the first shift someone would do, I'd show them how, you know, how to count the napkins.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then after that, it was their job to count the napkins, but you've got to count the napkins at some point.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a fun job, but doing that mundane task, once you get to the next level of your career, stay humble in it.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like don't forget where you came from, peel the potatoes.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, that definitely.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if if you are patient, you you then are humble when you get to where you need to get to.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I guess uh with that, I'd also say to be brave.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: So be brave and be confident.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you think you've got the ability and and you know what you want and you've educated yourself to a to a level where you think that you can operate in a certain role, then then be brave and go for it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Stick to your guns, commit to it, hold your nerve.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: Fab, well, I think you know, from my end, I've I've really enjoyed speaking with you today.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think, is there anything else that you feel you want to share with the community today?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, no, I mean it's been great to chat to you, Charlie.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, hopefully it was useful, and hopefully you your your listeners will will get some insight.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, other than that, no, I mean go out and enjoy the sunshine.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, put SPF on and uh yeah exactly.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, thank you so much for coming on today, Tom.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: Really appreciate it.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to see where Blackfinch grows into, where they evolve into, um, and and yourself as well.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.