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Facebook's Abortion Blackout · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to.
• 0:07
  Speaker 3: Stuff I've Never told you production of iHeartRadio, and today
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: we are once again thrilled to be joined by the fabulous,
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: the fantastic Bridget Todd.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Welcome Bridget, Thank you for having me back. I'm so
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: excited to be here.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: We're so excited to have you always. But yes, we
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: were discussing beforehand. There's a lot for us that we
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: would like your expertise on, so always, we appreciate you
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: coming on. There's so much going on right now. That
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: being said, how are you, Bridget?
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: You know this week was I don't know if you
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: all feel it. I feel like the last few weeks
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: has been pretty rough. It feels like things are different.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: It just feels like a shift in the air, which
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: can be hard to exist in, let alone make content
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: in that doesn't make people fearful and want to check out,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: which I think maybe we're all kind of navigating.
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, is that something that resonates with youtwo.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Yes, uh, yes, uh it's we make a lot of
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: contents and we do try to mix things up, but
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: we also don't want to make more things. But I mean,
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: for instance, yesterday I just had a lot of trouble
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: concentrating on my work because I was thinking about all
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: this other stuff and like, what what's going on in
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: the world? What can I do? Which I've always maintained
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: that if you want to get more productivity out of people,
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: then they're going about it the completely wrong. But that's
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: just a very small personal gripe of mine. Uh but yeah, yeah,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: it's it's been it's been difficult.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: What I've discovered is these tiny little coloring books that
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: are really like easy coloring, so it's not detailed because
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I've discovered as much as I'd like to do those things,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I cannot stay within the lines. And when they get
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: really like fancy the adult coloring book versions, like they
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: get fancy and you have to do the shading, and like,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: what what is this? Why do I have so many
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: things to color? So I discover these tiny ones that's
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: just like cutesy large pictures of like a milkshake. It
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: has been really nice that I can just check out,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: stay inside the lines and color with a marker like
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: those little like you know, paint like markers that doesn't
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: really satisfying. Nice to like zone.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Out, Sam, you are speaking my language, because a good
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: I have a I've spent so much money on this.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: But alcohol markers the one like, there's nothing quite like
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: a good marker. A new set of markers. You're like,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: this is gonna change everything. My future starts today. I've
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: got this new set of markers. Yes, and the ones,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: the ones that that I write really well, are so satisfying.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I know I sound like a crazy person, but genuinely,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: the appeal of finding the right set of markers conchange everything.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I am obsessed with pins and well written
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: fine point pins, like it has to be fine points,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Like the Chinese and Japanese have a market because they
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: have some of the best, like nicely flowing pins. Even
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: though my my hand writing is really really bad, but
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I love the feel of like a nice smooth rite.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: But with these, like the alcohol markers, as you're talking about,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: the only problem I have is the color that reports
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: that they say they represent on the cap doesn't actually
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: like translate in the marketing. So I'm like, oh, this
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: is a yellow and it turns orange. I'm like, wait,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: this is this is not But it is very smooth
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: and it is very satisfying because it fills all the
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: lines and you're like, yes, I'm a professional colorer.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: Of course.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: This is how this is how much I tell seriously,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I take this. When I get a new set of markers,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: the first thing I do is a little colors watch
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: to be the oh they say orange, what their orange
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: looks like? Yeah?
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I know, no surprises, you know what that's good to
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: That is great advice as a newly marker purchasing person.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: So thank you. I'm gonna have to have to get
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: some like scrap paper just so I can do that.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: This is we can do a whole episode on this.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Let's just look pens markers my family. It gives me
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: a head tingles even just talking about it. I love
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: it so much.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: So since I did the like pre show, everything's the
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: worst I have to bring in. This is a solution,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: and it's coloring large small coloring books that with wonderful markers.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that can be the antidote to our troubling times.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Have you considered just diving headfirst into the world of
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: markers and penmanship and calligraphy and journaling and coloring.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: It is quite nice. It is quite nice.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Annie.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I will leave some for you. I know you're about
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: to house it for me, so I will leave some
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: for you to try out yourself.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: You know I have. I have two main thoughts from this.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: One is that I hate when this happens where your
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: birthday is coming up, Samantha, and I wish I had
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: known this earlier. That would have been a great gift.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: But then I think, Bridget, you should come on one
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: time and let us talk about something that's not so stressful.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Let's give let's give ourselves a little break. We can
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: talk about markers. I know you mentioned like reality TV.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: We could have a whole thing where it's not something
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: so do all.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: The like dark stuff we should make. Let you come
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: in with the joys that you have because we just
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: talked about the Adirondacks and everything.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like people who listen to my content
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: might not know that I experienced joy I have I had.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: The only things I talk about are not the crushing
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: weight of fascism.
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: Enjoy reality television.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: I think this would be fun. I think we should
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: look at it all right.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: I like it.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, but unfortunately before that day, we're not doing that today.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: This is also the timing is interesting because we're Samantha
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: and I are working on an update on CPCs crisis
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: pregnancy centers. I know them very well, yes, and we
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: in our research ran into a lot of stuff about
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: how tech companies were basically paying for them to advertise
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: or accepting their money and being misleading about things. So
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: this is very much related. Uh, what are we talking
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: about today, bridget.
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: Well, that is such a good transition because it's all related.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: But tech companies really have put their thumbs on the
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: scale when it comes to being able to get accurate
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: content about abortion on social media. Your point about crisis
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: pregnancy centers and the way that Google essentially is like
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: paying an advertising network for them to exist is a
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: great example. But today I really wanted to talk about
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: how social media is heavily moderating and even in some
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: cases like suppressing and censoring content about abortion. I think
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: that we all talked about this back in January. But
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: did you remember when Mark Zuckerberg had that moment that
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: people sort of talked about as his mask off moment
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Back in January when Trump came back into office. I
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: think that we were talking about how he really started
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: dressing like a divorced nightclub promoter and was saying things like, oh,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: we're taking the tampons out of the washrooms at the
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: restroot in here at Facebook, HQ just really was sort
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: of having a moment where he was saying a lot
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: of things.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: Do you remember this.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: Oh yes, oh yes, he was like he leaned in hard.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: He was hard.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: He's been waiting for those moments.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: Yes, Oh my gosh, you could tell.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: I mean I almost quippled when people were like, oh,
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: it's his mask off moment because I don't think that
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg has any kind of like I don't. I
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: wouldn't call it a mask off moment because I think
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: that he is the definition of a hollow, empty person,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: and so I think he is the mask.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: He will say anything.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I think that he has no he's I'm honestly fascinated
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: by him as a tech leader because I think that
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: he has no value, scruples, morals, there's just nothing. He
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: will say anything, he will do anything. However the wind blows,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: that's how he will blow. And I don't think it's
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: fair to call that a mask moment when truly, like
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: what the mask is not hiding anything. This is just
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: genuinely like who you are, who you always have been,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: just the soulless person who was waiting to see who
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: they should kiss up to you and will do that
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: if it means holding onto power.
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: He was just waiting in the background, like his personality
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: was just waiting in the shadows. And then it's like, ohh,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: this is my moment.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: And so when that all was going on, he also
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: announced that Meta was going to be scrapping their community
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: notes feature and scrapping all third party fact checking on
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: the platform, because, as he said, it was time for
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: the company to get back to their roots when it
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: comes to free expression. I will play a little bit
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: of a video that he put out talking about this.
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: Hey everyone, I want to talk about something important today
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: because it's time to get back to our roots around
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: free expression on Facebook and Instagram. I started building social
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: media to give people a voice. I gave a speech
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: at Georgetown five years ago about the importance of protecting
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: free expression and I still believe this today. But a
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: lot has happened over the last several years. There's been
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: widespread debate about potential harms from online content. Governments and
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: legacy media have pushed to censor more and more. A
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: lot of this is clearly political, but there's also a
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: lot of legitimately bad stuff out there, drugs, terrorism, child exploitation.
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: These are things that we take very seriously, and I
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: want to make sure that we handle responsibly.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: So I have a lot to say about that.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: First of all, very convenient rewriting of the history that
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: frankly wasn't that long ago, and that if you're listening
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: in your my age you probably remember, because we all
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: know it is not a secret that Facebook. Mark Fuckerberg
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: created Facebook as a college student to rank the looks
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: of the women in on his college campus. Somehow we
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: sort of let him get away with being like, I
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: created Facebook to protect free expression. Okay, sure, I don't know.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I always have to like quibble at that because he,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I guess saw a video where he said I created
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Facebook because I wanted people to be able to have
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: debates about the Iraq War, and it's like, no, you did.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: First of all, I was an organizer in the anti
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: war movement. Nobody was communicating on Facebook when were like,
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Facebook wasn't for that.
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: So that's just not true.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: I really have a thing where people lie to your
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: face about recent history that you remember that you were
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: therefore that you were part of so that's bullshit. But
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: even more than that, he's talking about how the content
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: that he really wants to focus on in terms of
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: moderating the platform is a legal content, right, child safety, harms,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: drug trade, organized criminal activity, all of that. So this
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: is when he was really talking about how important it
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: was to protect free expression on social media platforms. Y'all
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: might recall that around this time he was in the
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: headlines for saying that you felt the Biden administration had
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: been trying to pressure Facebook into removing COVID misinformation. The
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: White House had a different take, saying, quote, when confronted
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: with the deadly pandemic, this administration encouraged responsible actions to
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: protect public health and safety. Our position has been very
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: clear and consistent. We believe tech companies and other private
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: actors should take into account the effects their actions have
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: on the American people while making independent choices about the
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: information they present. So, you know, Zuckerberg in this moment
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: was like, we are not going to be moderating political
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: content the way that we have been. We are going
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: to lift restrictions on topics that are part of mainstream
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: discourse and really just focus on the enforcement of a
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: legal and like high severity violation.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: So yay for free speech.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Right, that all sounds great, Well, all of that, it's
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: only the case if that part of the mainstream discourse
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: is not abortion, which Facebook continues to suppress and moderate
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: quite heavily with zero transparency and zero consistency.
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: So it seems like.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: If you're spreading COVID misinformation, well that is protected speech
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: that needs to be left up for freedom. If you
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: are sharing accurate information about abortion that isn't even against
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: metas policies, they will take it down.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and like you said, without warning or transpancy or nothing,
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: just is gone. And you might not know why or well,
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: you could probably figure it out. But one of the
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: things that's really frustrating about all of this is that,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: you know, like you said, they're kind of lying to
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: our faces, right, Like they're saying one thing and doing
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: something completely different.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what really makes me angry about this. You know,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I cover a lot of tech companies. The thing that
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: gets me is when they lie, when they say one
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: thing publicly, when they publish something in their rules and
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: regulations and policies. You know, no one's putting a gun
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: to their head and making them put these things in
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: their rules. They put them in their rules, and then
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: they do a completely different thing, and then when advocates
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: or organizers call them out on it, there's just no
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: They're just like, oops, what are you gonna do that?
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: For some reason, that just really gets me, because they
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: are allowed to enjoy all of this positive press of
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: putting this thing in their policy and then continue doing
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: the shady work of going against that policy.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: It never it never comes back at them.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: But they're able to just do whatever they want while
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: saying one thing and doing another.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: And I just don't feel like they really get held accountable.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: And so a Meta spokesperson said that taking down abortion
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: content goes against Meta's own intentions. A spokesperson told The
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: New York Times, we want our platforms to be a
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: place where people can access reliable information about health services,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: advertisers can promote health services, and everyone can discuss and
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: debate public policies in this space. That is why we
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: allow posts and ads discussing and debating abortion. But they're
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: not doing that at all. Because the big thing to
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: know here is that Meta says one thing in their
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: policies and then does a completely different thing when it
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: comes to how they are actually moderating abortion content.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's it's so difficult right now to
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: get that good information and there's so much misinformation and
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: disinformation out there, and to remove it is just really
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: piling onto a problem that really doesn't need any more
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: piling onto. It is already really bad and people are
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: already very confused. This is not helping.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: No, that's a really good context to set that. You know,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: we're in a time where the Supreme Court struck down Row.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: It is so much harder to access accurate information about
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: help so that people can make health decisions for themselves.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: And when social media platforms like Facebook put their thumb
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: on the scales and make these kinds of moderation decisions
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: with no transparency that go against their own stated policy,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: it just makes that climate so much harder. It makes
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: it harder for the people who are trying to do
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: this work, abortion providers and abortion advocates. It makes it
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: harder for people who need to make decisions about their
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: health and the people that support them. It makes it
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: so that people cannot access information.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: To figure out what they want to do with their own.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Bodies and lives, and these companies do that while saying, oh,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: we promote the ability to use our platforms to get
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: this kind of information. I would prefer that they say
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: we don't like abortion, we don't want people using our
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: platform to talk about abortion, so we take that content off.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: At least that would be honest.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: But what they are doing is lying to people about
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: what they're actually doing while doing it. It's so it's
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: it's really adding insult to injury.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Right, I mean, the true honest answer probably is that
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: they are taking money or they know that they are
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: just buying time until the entirety of our rights and
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: productive rights may be completely dismantled in every way. And
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: that way they can already say, hey, leaders of this
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: fascist regime, we have done everything for you, so can
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: you keep supporting our platform and give us more money?
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Ugh, I mean the way that you've got the fox
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Watch in the Henhouse here, the way that platforms are
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: able to cozy up to really, I mean, it's not
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: even really the Trump administration, just whoever is in power.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: And then though that administration is also the administration that
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: is meant to be overseeing and regulating them. It's horrible
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and so we really it's I'm glad that you brought
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: that up, because I think that helps us peel back
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: the layers of what exactly is going on here and
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: why it's so unacceptable.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: And in understanding that that the whole confusion part is
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: probably the point.
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: I think that's true.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, in looking at some of the ways that
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Facebook says one thing and does another when it comes
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: to moderating abortion content, I think that's exactly the point.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, if we and we'll get into
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: this a little bit in a moment, but if we
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: create a confusing, inconsistent, not transparent climate, people will just
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: stop posting this information on our platforms.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: And so we don't have to crack down on all
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: We don't have to have a policy that does not
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: allow for abortion content to be on our platform. It'll
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: there'll be a chilling effect and people will do it
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: on their own. They'll just stop posting on their own,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: and I think, in my opinion, that's the why of
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: why this is happening. So Meta says that they really
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: want to focus on moderating posts that deal with illegal content.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Side note, they don't always do such a great job
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: of that either, But that's for another episode. So meta's
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Dangerous Organizations and Individuals ORDI policy was supposed to really
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: be like a narrow policy focusing on preventing the platform
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: from being used by terrorist groups or organized crime like
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: violent or criminal activity. But according to the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: over the years, we've really seen those rules be applied
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: in far broader and troubling ways, with little transparency and
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: significant impact on marginalized voices. And this has essentially allowed
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: META to suppress factual content about abortion that does not
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: actually break any of the platform's rules.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: So the reason let me know this is.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Because the Electronic Frontier Foundation or EFF have really given
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: us a snapshot into what's happening and provided some very
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: clear receipts with their Stoff Censoring Abortion campaign eff sas
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: they collected stories from individuals, healthcare clinics, advocacy groups, and more,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: and together they've revealed nearly one hundred examples of posts
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: and resources being taken down, ranging from guidance on medication
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: abortion to links of resources supporting individuals in states with
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: abortion bands. What is important to note is that the
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: posts that they found that weren't taken down or that
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: resulted in sometimes a ban did not break any of
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Meta's rules. Eff said, we analyze these takedowns, deletions, and
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: bands comparing the content to what platform policies allow, particularly
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: those of Meta, and found that almost none of the
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: submissions we received violated any of the platform stated policies.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Most of the censored posts simply provided factual, educational information.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: So it really is a system where you don't know,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess you could guess why this content
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: is being taken down. There's no consistency, there's no transparency,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: and Facebook just gets to be like oopsie when it happens.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Here's a great example of a post that was removed
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: from a healthcare policy strategist named Lauren Carer discussing abortion
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: pills availability by mail. Her post reads, FYI, abortion pills
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: are great to have around, whether you anticipate needing them
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: or not. Plan C Pills is an amazing resource to
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: help you find reliable sources for abortion pills by mail,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: no matter where you live. Once received, the pill should
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: be kept in a cool, dry place. The shelf life
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: of maybe pristone is about five years. The shelf life
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: of misso pristal is about two years. There's a missipriystal
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: only regiment that is extremely safe, effective, and very common globally,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So that post is just here is some factual information
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: about these pills. However, Facebook removed that post, and the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: explanation they gave Lauren was that they don't allow people
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: to buy, sell, or exchange drugs that require a prescription
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: from a doctor or a pharmacist. But as you can tell,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: that post isn't about selling or buying or trading medication.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: It is just fact based information about that medication.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of those things where you read it
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: and you're like, I don't see the see the thing,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: the thing that you're saying is there. It's just it's
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: just information. Uh oh it makes you bad.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And Eff points out that this post does not
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: break any of Meta's rules and should not be removed.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: But you don't have to take their word for it
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: or my word for it, because Meta said the exact
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: same thing. Eff points out that Meta publicly insists that
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: posts like these should not be censored, and if February
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty four letter to Amnesty International, metas Human Rights
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: policy director wrote organic content i e. Non Paid content
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: educating users about medication abortion, is allowed and does not
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: violate our community standards. Additionally, providing guidance on legal access
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: to pharmaceuticals is allowed.
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: So what the hell is suck?
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Why if it's allowed, why are you taking it down?
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I'm so curious about because if the moderators are essentially
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: kind of removed, then is this just a they have
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: like a keyword, like, how is this happening? Is there
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: a person or.
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: That is a great question.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: If I had to guess, I would say, just knowing
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: what I know about content moderation, I would say this
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: is probably over use of AI moderation and then not
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: caring enough to correct that. That's if I had to say,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I would say, because honestly, content moderation is a job
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: for a not just a human, but a culturally competent human.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: When you don't have culturally competent humans making that moderation decisions,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: it's a problem, and it's a problem that leads to
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: the content of marginalized people being suppressed much more on
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: these platforms. Right, So, if I had to guess, I
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: would say, this is somebody using an AI content moderation
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: and then not caring enough to correct that. It is
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: consistently taking down content that does not break any of
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: the platform's rules. That's my guess.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Well, and that kind of relates to another thing I
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: know you're going to talk about, which is something Smith
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: and I've also talked about on some of our episodes.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Is shadow banding.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, shadow banning is one of those issues that
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I find very interesting because who among us has not
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: posted something on social media? Had that post not perform
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: as well as you were expecting, and wonder am I
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: shadow band I have definitely thought this myself. If you've
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: ever thought that, you are not alone. But it does
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: really happen. So shadow banning is what a social media
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: platform limits the visibility of someone's content without telling them.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: And this is happening to people and organizations that make
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: content about sexual and reproductive health. And it's a real
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: problem because, as we were talking about before the Internet
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five, like that is really where people
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: are going to find information about their health, especially in
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: a landscape where that information is more difficult to come by,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: where it's criminalized and cracked down on.
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: So people need the Internet as a resource.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: And so if the people and advocates and organizations who
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: provide that information online are shadow band it becomes that
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: much harder to access what is often life saving information
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: to help people make health decisions. Earlier this year, the
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Center for Intimacy Justice shared a report called the Digital
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Gag Suppression of Sexual and Reproductive Health on Meta, TikTok, Amazon,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: and Google, and they found that of the one hundred
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: and fifty nine nonprofits, content creators, sex educators, and businesses
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: that they surveyed, sixty three percent had content removed on Meta,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: fifty five percent had content removed on TikTok. And this
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: suppression is happening at the same time as platforms continue
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: to allow and elevate videos of violence and gore and
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: extremist and hateful content. And this pattern is troubling because
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: it only becomes more prevalent as folks turn more and
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: more to social media to find the information that they
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: need to make decisions about their health. And so I
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: like that context, because we really do have a social
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: media landscape that allows for violent content, gory content, extremist
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: or hateful content to stay up while taking down accurate
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: content about reproductive health that they agreed does not violate
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: any of their policies.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: It's pretty telling to you. You have some examples here,
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: and one of them is from a place near us
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: that I was like, oh, dear, oh dear Emery. Yeah, yep,
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: but I mean it's also, oh, as we're doing this
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: research on the CPC episode, I consider myself pretty you know,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: pretty informed about abortion and all of it, but I
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: had to look up some stuff about like, I'm not
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: sure is that legal there? I don't know, Like I
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: was feeling like, I know, I don't know if I
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: can trust this information. And then you try to go
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: to a place where you're like, okay, I know this place,
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: and then you find out it's taken down, it doesn't
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: have anything about it. Yeah, it's not a good climate.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: And then you have Google allowing CPCs to stay, you know,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: high ranked in their search. And then when you go
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to CPCs they tell you all kinds of misinformation about
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: pregnancy and abortion. They are allowed to just essentially lie
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: to people, people who are in vulnerable situations. And so
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: it's already a climate where it's hard to find trustworthy,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: accurate information, and then the clearly not trustworthy, clearly not
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: accurate information is allowed to not just allowed to exist,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: but they put their thumb on the scales in terms
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: of making it more accessible than information that is factual.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: So let us get into some of these examples, including
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: the one near us.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: So let's talk about what happened at Emory University.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: So RISE at Emor University, the Center for Reproductive Health
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and Research in the Southeast, they published a post saying,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: let's talk about Miffy pristone and its uses and the
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: importance of access. So they post this online. Two months later,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: their account was suddenly suspended, flagged under the policy against
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: selling illegal drugs, which they were not selling or offering
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: illegal drugs. They were just giving fact based health information.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: They tried to appeal, but that appeal was denied, leading
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: to their account being permanently deleted. Sarah Read, the director
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: of Research and Translation at RISE, told Eff as a team,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: this was a hit to our morale. We poor account
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: less hours of person power, creativity and passion into creating
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: the content we have on our page and having it
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: vanished virtually overnight took a toll on our team. And
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: you know, I really think, like think about how critical
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: that information is these days, and how critical social media
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: is these days. They are already doing sensitive work in
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: an area where that work is threatened, and so losing
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: your social media that you've put so much time into
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: is like losing a lifeline, both for the staff and
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: for the community that you're trying to do that work in.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: As Eff puts it, For many organizational users like Rise,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: their social media accounts are repository for resources and metrics
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: that may not be stored elsewhere. We spent a significant
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: amount of already constrained team capacity attempting to recover all
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: of the content we created for Instagram that was potentially
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: going to be permanently lost. We also spent a significant
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: amount of time and energy trying to understand what options
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: we might have available for Meta to appeal our case
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: and recover our account. Their support options are not easily accessible,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: and the time it took to navigate this issue distracted
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: from our existing work. So I totally feel what they
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: are saying that when you are doing work that is
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: that critical, you know, time sensitive, having to stop that
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: work to figure out, well, how are we going to
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: appeal this decision to Meta? Is all of are all
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: of our years and years of work on Instagram just
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: lost forever? That is a real problem. And again, they
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: weren't doing anything wrong. They're they're nothing that they posted
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: on their account was against metas policies. It's just arbitrary
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: and so luckily they were able to eventually get their
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: account back, but only because they knew someone who knew
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: somebody who worked at Facebook personally, which is really the
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: only way to appeal when this kind of thing happens.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: If you, if you if your account is taken down
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: for no real reason by Facebook, I am sorry to say,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: unless you have a friend who knows somebody who works
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: at Facebook, you're probably not going to be able to
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: appeal again because a lot of these decisions are AI right.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: It can be very very hard to sate to a
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: human and the only real way to do it is
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: to just know somebody there. And again, I just feel
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: that in these situations where Meta agrees these posts are
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: not in violation of their rules and that they admit
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: they made a mistake, it should not come down to
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: knowing somebody at Facebook to have these decisions be reversed
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: when Meta agrees they are mistakes on their part.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: Now I'm trying to think if I know someone on
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: Facebook I used to, I don't know if we're still there. Well,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: another issue with this is, as you said, if people
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: are worried that their content might be deleted or shadow banned,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: or just they've seen this happen to other organizations or
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: something like that, then they might not post it anymore.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to assume that is the point eff rights.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, clinics are clinics are
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: left afraid to post basic information, patients are left confused
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: or misinformed, and researchers lose access to these audiences. But
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: unless your issue catches the attention of a journalist or
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: you know, someone at Meta, you might never regain access
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: to your account. And so I really think that that
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: is the sort of so what here that Meta is
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: doing this to sort of not explicitly discourage organizations and
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: advocates and people from posting this kind of information on
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: their platform, while saying the opposite, because it is going
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: to have a silencing effect.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: You know, nobody wants to risk.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Losing their entire platform, years and years and years of
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: content and research and resources they've collected.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no one that's going to want to take that risk, right.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that their policy with like the things that
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: we're going to actually moderate is about terror and gain
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: and child endangerment, which is kind of a dog whistle
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: for what the Republican platform has been to for jump
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: to all of this morality level of issues, and that
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: the fact that Zuckerberg is like, you know what, Yeah,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: we're gonna adopt this too, but it's purely to protect
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: the people's We're just protecting the people's And again it
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: does seem like see, see we're doing like you, we
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: got your back. We also agree with this. This is
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: the only way or this is the best way to
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: control what information is being out there.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: Yes, and if you actually I mean, this is a
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: whole other topic.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: But when you look at the way so they say, okay,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: we're only gonna be cracking down on content that creates
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: harm for kids, this dog whistle that they love.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: To pull up.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: And then when you look at the kind of harm
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: for kids that they either allow or advocate, part of
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: me is like, what what content are you actually taking down?
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you all saw the recent reporting.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: There was a very interesting report I think from the
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal where they had gotten their hands on
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: an internal policy document. So this is something that somebody
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: at Facebook said this is our policy, totally fine to
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: have in writing, no problem. That said that Meta's chatbots
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: were allowed to engage in sensual play with minors, so kids,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: it was okay with Meta if they're chatbots engaged in
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: like sensual I won't say sexual, but I would say
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: I've seen some of the content and it is sort
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: of spicy that it's okay if they're if they're bot
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: to do that with children. And part of me is like,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: I cannot believe you will put this in writing. I
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: cannot believe that someone at Facebook said, yeah, this is
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: a this is a document, I'll attach my name to this.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: Well and behold.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: When the Wall Street Journal asked about it, they were like,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: oh no, we have since walked that policy back. That's
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: no longer our official, on the record. Our official on
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: the record policy is no longer that it's okay, hey,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: for our bots to engage in sexy role play with kids.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: We've walked that back. I bet you did walk that.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Back today as you asked this question.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I'm sure it happened right after the Wall Street Journal
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: called them and asked them about it.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: I'm so sure that it was like an hour later
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: we walked at that.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: We got this now, No, we would never right.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and I mean you were here Bridget, I
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: guess it was years ago and you were talking about
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: another kind of whistlebrower account of Facebook knowing it was
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: harming young girls.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Francis hogen Is is the whistleblower. Why we know that?
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's it is very galling for them to
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: be like, we want to protect the children, and then
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: you have these things that again directly show that clearly
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: you don't, not.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Really and to be clear, that is knowingly harming kids.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: So I just think it's very interesting that Facebook gets
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: to say, well, we're too busy focusing on content that
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: harms kids to take down to really care that much
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: about what's going on with our abortion content. And that's
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: the content we're really working on.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: But really we're not doing that either.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean, they get they really. It
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: just infuriates me, it really does. And I think the
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: issue really is to understand is in twenty twenty five,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: when you have a question, When I have a question,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: the first place I go is the internet, right we
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: all that's I think that is the reality for most
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: of us, and the internet and social media really has
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: become this lifeline for folks trying to get information about
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: the world around us, including our sexual and reproductive health.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: And if folks are not able to find what they
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: need in their own communities, which I'm sorry to say
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: is becoming more and more of the reality these days,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: they are going to go online to turn to social
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: media to fill those gaps. That access really matters most
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: for folks whose care is being cut off, like abortion
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: seekers or or queer youth living in states where healthcare
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: is under attack. And so if you have these social
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: media platforms kind of adding to a landscape where that
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: information is difficult to access, even if that information is
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: not against their rules, it's just making it that much
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: more difficult.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: And these decisions really do matter.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: I mean they some of them are life or death,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: and they really have real world impact on people's lives.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And unfortunately this is not this is part of
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: kind of a larger issue, kind of a larger attack,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: gendered attack. Correct.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, so this is something I find so interesting and
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: I actually should come back and do another episode on it.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: In the middle of some research on it right now.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: But the Center for Intimacy Justice, who's report I mentioned earlier.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: They have another report that really shows how platforms routinely
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: suppress sexual health content for women and trans folks, while
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: leaving content aimed at supporting the sexual health of CIS
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: men largely untouched. Right, So, I know lots of people
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: who run businesses that are focused on the sexual health
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: of people who are not CIS men. Right, So, if
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: you have pelvic pain, if you need sex toys, like
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: all these different things that are aimed at people who
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: are not cisgender men. I have lots of friends who
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: run businesses like that. They are essentially not able to
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: do any kind of advertising on Facebook because Facebook does
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: not allow it. However, Facebook certainly allows information about the
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: sexual wellness of cisgender men. So we really have a
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: climate where, let's face it, mostly men who run these
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: platforms are able to determine whose sexual health is important
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: and who is not, whose healthcare is healthcare, and whose
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: is like something perverted that needs to be suppressed and
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: isn't allowed on their platform.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now I'm thinking about it as I've been looking
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: at Instagram the amount of GLP one ads that I've
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: been getting, which is interesting because I thought that was
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: medication that you had to get their doctor is overwhelming.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: But also on the vice versa of that is meles
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: you know, health sex health bs. Those are the two
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: ads that I get. Definitely nothing about women in birth
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: control rarely, there's a few that but it's very as
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: of late, I think zero. But the amount of GLP
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: one ads, I'm like, whoa, what is happening Instagram? I
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: thought we weren't allowing this.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean the amount of ads I get specifically
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: for the a rectail dysfunction medication blue.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: Chew, and the ads are do have you ever seen
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: these ads online?
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: The ads are clearly targeted at women, So it's a
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: cute woman being like, ladies, get your man to get
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: blue chee, blue shoe is gonna rock your world.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: Get your man on blue shoe.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: And that's a medication that is that is an arectail
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: dysfunction prescription medication.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: But these platforms have just decide, oh no, that's okay,
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: that's that.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: You can you can show that all day long, no problem,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: you can boost it, you can put money behind it.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Totally fine again like and then the other part being
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: the weight loss medication, which slowly a lot more information
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: comes back, like oh, there's side effects. This might not
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: be as good as you think.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: By the way, Oh yes, I'll just say yes. I'll
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: just say yes.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Well that's like as of late, and we know this
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: was coming. We knew this was coming because they've also
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: got variations that are not FDA approved, which I guess
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: means very little at this point in time. But again
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: that this is the rampant amount of ass like every
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: two like scrolls on Instagram that pops up, and on
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Facebook too, which is I'm like, I don't even go
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: to Facebook. I just need to know people's birthdays. That's
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: all I need, That's all I really want. But again,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: this seems to be like I thought once, if that
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: was your policy from Jump, then how are these as
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: paying you, I know, paying you millions? How are these okay?
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, their policy is totally inconsistent, seemingly arbitrary, and seemingly
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: biased against any kind of marginal identity. Like that's just
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: what's going on. They don't have any transparency. They say
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: one thing and do another. Uh, and that just is
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: the is the norm for them, and it's I really
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: do think that we should be talking about how you know, again,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: let's be honest we're talking about mostly men, and mostly
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: not just men, like a specific kind of man, white moneyed,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: coastal all of that. How we have given them so
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: much power to define what knowledge is acceptable, whose voices
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: are amplified, whose bodies are are left at risk, and
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: when platforms decide what can and can't be shared.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: They are making.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Public health decisions with global consequences in ways that are
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: often contrary to public health, and then also reinforce systemic
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: and equalities. And so I just think, you know, this
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: is not just we're not just talking about like vague
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: policy language. I know that I have spent a lot
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: of time talking about that because it's a nois But
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: it's really about them deciding who gets to speak, who
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: gets seen, who gets access to the information that they
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: need to make decisions about their own health and bodies.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: When Meta and these platforms silence accurate, essential sexual and
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: reproductive health information for not just enforcing inconsistent body rules,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: I mean they are, but they're not just doing that.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: They are also shaping people's lives and really deciding whose
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: health matters and whose doesn't. And in a world where
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: we know the internet has really become this lifeline that
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: is not just annoying, although I am annoid, it is
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: dangerous because free speech shouldn't come with a disclaimer that
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: your body's safety is just optional and up to the
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: whims of Mark Zuckerberg.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: No, I don't want to live in that world.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: No, No, I mean I think about this all the time,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: the ways that these individuals, like a handful of individual
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: mostly white guys, get to define what our worlds look
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: like in these very con create ways.
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: And I've never met Mark Zuckerberg.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Although I have met Cheryl Sandberg, but I've never met
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg. I don't want Mark Zuckerberg in charge of
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: deciding anything for my life. I don't think Mark Zuckerberg
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: and I have any common idea about what it means
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: to have a good, fulfilled life. I don't want him
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: designing what my future looks like.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: I think that's very wise.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: I mean that one movie made him look really pretty
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: much a dick.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: So, oh my god, you mean The Social Network, one
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: of my favorite movies.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: Oh my god. I don't want to I don't want.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: To spoil it, but the ending of that movie is
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: my version of Citizen Kane.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: Have you both have seen it?
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've not seen it. I've seen clips because I'm like,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I don't want even want to know, but he seems.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Like a dick.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Go home and watch it tonight. I know your birthday
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: is coming up, birthday? Is it a fun birthday watch?
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm such a nerd. I say it's a
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: fun watch. But if you're looking for a movie to
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: watch on your birthday, that might be that might.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: Be the one.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: It's a good it's a solid like, oh, yeah, you're
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: just a sad man ending.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, you know what I'm talking about, you kids, Citizen Kane,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: the sled moment at the end of that movie. It
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: haunts me, and I think if you haven't, I think
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: if you've seen it, it gives context for some of the
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: stuff we've talked about when it comes to Upberg today.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: All right, without even seeing it, I was like, all right.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: Also love it as such a dark soundtrack?
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: Who is it yet?
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Nobody does a haunting soundtrack like Trent Resnor Gone Girl
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: soundtrack soundtrack to Challenger is also Trent Resnor, And that's
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: the soundtrack I put on when I'm writing if you
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: need to focus and just like put on some headphones
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: and be like we are writing.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: Let's do that is your soundtrack.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Rednor can write a dark movie soundtrack like Nobody's Business.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: And I love that.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: It was in this movie about this college kid trying
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: to get a girl to like Oh Lord, yes, okay,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: well we'll revisit that later. We'll do uh maybe you
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: know we had a fun time trash talking some Hugh
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Heffner that one time. We'll come back with a fun
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: thing for you, Bridget, and you can side because you
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: always bring us these heavy topics of your choosing. But
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: before then, thank you so much for being here. Where
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: can the good listeners find you?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: You can find me on my podcast. There are no
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: girls on the internet. You can find me on Instagram.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: I know it's owned by Max Zarckerberg. I don't like
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: it either. At Bridget Bryan DC, TikTok at Bridget Bran DC,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: and on YouTube.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: There are no girls on the internet.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, go check all of that out if you have
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: it already, Listeners, if you would like to contact us,
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: you can you can email us at Hello stuff, I
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: never told you. You can find us on Blue Scott
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: most of podcast or Instagram and TikTok at Stuff. I
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: never told you. We're also on YouTube. We have new
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: merchandise ad Cotton Bureau, and we have a book you
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: can get wherever you get your books. Thanks always her
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: as suproducer with senior executive producer, my under contributor Joey.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: Stuff never told this book should by Heart Radio. For
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: more podcast from my Heart Radio, you can check out
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: the heart Radio app, a podcast or where you listen
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.