Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "The Porn Star's Perspective" with Angela White

Transcript

"The Porn Star's Perspective" with Angela White · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  G'day humans, welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas, here's an uncomfortable situation
• 0:07
  for you.
• 0:08
  You're Stark naked, and you're getting in on with someone you've never met before, surrounded
• 0:13
  by a whole group of people who are holding lighting rigs and cameras and sandwiches, it seems
• 0:22
  weird.
• 0:23
  Why would you spend your life doing this?
• 0:24
  Well, Angela White is here to tell us.
• 0:27
  She's a smart cookie.
• 0:28
  She graduated with first class honors from the University of Melbourne, studying gender studies,
• 0:34
  but from an early age, wanted to become a porn star and has become by far the most successful
• 0:39
  adult film actress in Australia.
• 0:41
  Not just in Australia, I mean she's had a big career in the United States.
• 0:45
  She is the most award-winning female performer in adult entertainment history with literally
• 0:52
  hundreds of awards in adult film Oscars.
• 0:56
  She's in the top 0.01% of only fans creators, she basically presides over a multi-million-dollar
• 1:01
  empire that is herself.
• 1:03
  We wanted to talk about gender, sex and taboos and feminism, enjoy it the one and only,
• 1:10
  Angela White.
• 1:13
  Ah, how are you?
• 1:22
  I'm great.
• 1:23
  How do you find, are you on a big media tour at the moment?
• 1:26
  Are you talking to idiots like me constantly and having to face the same questions over
• 1:30
  and over again?
• 1:31
  I do get a lot of the same questions, but every now and then I get an interesting question
• 1:34
  that I have.
• 1:35
  Do you enjoy it?
• 1:36
  I do.
• 1:37
  Like this process?
• 1:38
  Yeah, it's fun.
• 1:39
  Is there a time?
• 1:40
  Are people sometimes prurient in the questions they ask?
• 1:41
  Are you mine?
• 1:42
  You don't mind that.
• 1:43
  That's my job.
• 1:44
  Yeah, it's right.
• 1:45
  To get into the dirty details, so.
• 1:47
  You sort of brought that on yourself.
• 1:48
  You're ready with your choice of career.
• 1:50
  I like talking about sex and I like talking about things that people find uncomfortable.
• 1:55
  Is that part of the...
• 1:56
  Thank you.
• 1:57
  I only just...
• 1:58
  It's early in the morning.
• 1:59
  I didn't even get the reference.
• 2:00
  I didn't come to a conversation.
• 2:01
  That's my show, right?
• 2:02
  Yes, that's the name of the show.
• 2:03
  Yeah, that's where we are.
• 2:04
  That's where we are.
• 2:05
  Good.
• 2:06
  Thanks for the reminder.
• 2:07
  Is that part of the appeal for you?
• 2:08
  Is the transgressiveness of it?
• 2:09
  Or does that just come along for the ride?
• 2:11
  It's...
• 2:12
  Well, that's not why I got in, but it's fun to be able to live a life where I get to do
• 2:17
  things that people feel that they can't do or they feel shame around.
• 2:21
  Yes.
• 2:22
  I like...
• 2:23
  For me, I've always been fascinated by sex and sexuality and part of that fascination
• 2:28
  I think has been driven by the fact that it's so taboo and it's a secret.
• 2:31
  You're not supposed to talk about it or know about it.
• 2:34
  I'm interested in this aspect of you because you're quite intellectual about it and you
• 2:37
  wrote a thesis about this when we're doing a masters in...
• 2:40
  I'm honest.
• 2:41
  An honest act.
• 2:42
  I mean, I read the abstract of the thesis and it made an interesting point that I hadn't
• 2:47
  really thought of, which is that when you're doing porn, you're able to explore your own
• 2:52
  sexuality and the fun of sex in ways that are completely disengaged, I'm probably mangling
• 2:57
  your words, but detached from the ordinary motivations of sex, the ordinary sexual identities
• 3:02
  that you might inhabit, the ordinary incentives for sex.
• 3:06
  All of that is turned on its head.
• 3:07
  So you're stripping away just the pure sex act and doing it in this funny, cloud space
• 3:13
  that doesn't have any of the...
• 3:14
  It doesn't obey any of the normal rules that human beings associate with sex.
• 3:18
  Is that the appeal or...?
• 3:20
  That became part of the appeal.
• 3:21
  So the reason I got into pornography was to express and explore my sexuality.
• 3:25
  At that point, I was looking for a...
• 3:27
  And you were quite young.
• 3:28
  I was young.
• 3:29
  So it was the age of 14 that I decided I wanted to get into pornography, obviously the
• 3:33
  legal age to perform is 18.
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  So I had four years to research pornography and figure out, okay, it's really what I want
• 3:39
  to do.
• 3:40
  And all your friends are going, mum, I want to poke them on, I want to get my driver
• 3:44
  license.
• 3:45
  You're like, I want to be an adult film star.
• 3:46
  Yes.
• 3:47
  Right.
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  So I waited till I was 18 and then as soon as I turned 18, as soon as I was legal, I was
• 3:51
  on a plane to America.
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  And why?
• 3:54
  Do you know why?
• 3:55
  Do you have enough?
• 3:56
  Yeah, it was because...
• 3:57
  So when I developed sexually, I was very curious.
• 4:00
  I really wanted to explore all facets of my sexuality.
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  It felt very core to who I was.
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  And every single way that I expressed my sexuality was criticized.
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  So this was in high school.
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  I was slut-shamed.
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  I was expressing my sexuality with both men and women.
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  It was not cool at that time to be kissing girls in the quadrangle.
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  In fact...
• 4:21
  Oh my goodness, imagine today.
• 4:22
  I know.
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  You wouldn't have had to become a porn star.
• 4:24
  Right.
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  You'd just be the coolest kid in school.
• 4:26
  Well, you know, I guess lucky, it was, you know, not as open back then.
• 4:31
  Well, I mean, and then you'd have to screw around with gender, though, today as well.
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  You'd have to be a little bit them about it, I think, to be extra cool.
• 4:37
  Oh, okay.
• 4:38
  You know what I mean?
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  Yeah.
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  To get the full on cred.
• 4:41
  Okay, so you're like 14, your friends are sort of...
• 4:43
  They're not that into the fact that you're exploring sexuality in an overt way.
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  Well, my friends, I had a core group of friends that, you know, accepted me and were...
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  They just drew me.
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  That's Angela.
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  Yes.
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  But the rest of the high school would criticize me for the ways I expressed and explored my sexuality.
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  And pornography was the first space that I saw women being celebrated
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  for expressing and exploring their sexuality.
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  It was the first place where I saw that you could have sex with multiple people.
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  And it'd be a wonderful thing rather than something to be slut-shamed over.
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  And so there was the sexual aspect to it, but then there was also the body aspect to it
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  because back then, plus size modeling wasn't a thing.
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  When I was reading magazines, it was Dolly and girlfriend.
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  You weren't seeing different types of bodies being represented in mainstream media.
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  It was very much that stick-thin look.
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  And I developed quite early by 14.
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  I had double-debress.
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  I was very curvy and I just didn't see myself represented.
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  But pornography was the first place that I saw women like me again being celebrated.
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  And having large natural breasts, the only breasts that I was seeing on TV in magazines
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  were small breasts and small breasts look very different to large breasts when they're
• 6:01
  outside of a bra, you know, big natural boobs hang.
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  And Paul was the first place I saw other boobs like mine.
• 6:09
  Right.
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  And did you feel self-conscious about your physicality or did you read as hot?
• 6:17
  I mean, did people want to have sex with you when you were in your teens?
• 6:19
  It was.
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  I developed very quickly.
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  Not I wouldn't say very early, actually.
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  My friends developed earlier than me.
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  But by the age of 14.
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  When it happened, it happened.
• 6:31
  What happened?
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  The trains leave on the stage.
• 6:33
  Yes.
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  It happened very fast.
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  And so I got both positive and negative attention all at once.
• 6:37
  I got a lot of positive attention from older men.
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  I was just going to ask that.
• 6:42
  Yes.
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  I bet that.
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  Yeah.
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  Right.
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  So suddenly you look precocious.
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  Yeah.
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  The older creeps.
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  Yes.
• 6:50
  I like woo.
• 6:51
  But it was a strange time because I was really excited about exploring my sexuality, but
• 6:54
  at the same time I had these large purple stretch marks on my breasts, like tiger stripes.
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  So I was very self-conscious.
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  So I was in this weird realm where it's like I really want to be sexual and intimate with
• 7:07
  people.
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  But also, like, are my boobs okay?
• 7:11
  Like, are people going to want to have sex with me when they look like this?
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  I mean, every 15-year-old feels self-conscious about their body depending on whatever their
• 7:18
  body is.
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  Or do you think it was unusually pronounced for you?
• 7:23
  I guess everyone has a little bit of self-consciousness at that age.
• 7:27
  Right.
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  Just not big boobs stretch marks.
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  I think mine were just, it was just very big, very quickly, very purple.
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  Right.
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  Honestly, a panting in color shade to get the exact type of purple.
• 7:41
  We're talking a kind of, like, a, what shade of purple are we talking about?
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  It was always fuchsia.
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  It was always fuchsia.
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  It was fuchsia.
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  It was fuchsia.
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  Yeah.
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  And I had extremely pale skin.
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  Right.
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  So it was, yeah.
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  And were you interested in sex, four sex, or was sex, like, for a lot of teenagers, you're
• 8:00
  exploring new emotions about love and attraction and the adulation that you feel for other people
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  and how are you going to fit into the world and how are you going to be cared for and not
• 8:10
  judged and all that sort of stuff?
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  And so sex becomes, or like, the erotic impulse becomes wrapped up, also in those emotional
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  needs.
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  And so people will find themselves in relationships.
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  Maybe with older people who find, who have a caring relationship for them.
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  Was that there?
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  Or was it just like, want to get my rocks off?
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  That's just what I'm at.
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  I was horny.
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  Like, I really like the, I just give you this big poetic opportunity to be like, this
• 8:38
  was a Shakespearean sonnet.
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  Not.
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  I was a very, very sexual teen.
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  In fact, well, do you think that's just hardwired?
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  That's just something that your body is just doing.
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  I think so.
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  Because talking to my mom about her teen years and how she was, she was also a very sexual
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  teen.
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  So I think it might be genetic.
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  And I guess it kind of makes sense I developed so quickly.
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  So obviously the hormones are surging to just develop my breasts that quickly.
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  It makes sense that also the hormones are surging and making me incredibly horny.
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  But even before that, even before the hormones, I was always fascinated and repulsed actually
• 9:17
  by sex.
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  It was very...
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  Aren't we all?
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  Yeah.
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  I think that repulsion may be even more interested in it because I was that weird kid in the back
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  of the library reading, where did we come from, staring at the cartoon images of men and
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  women copulating and looking at the penises.
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  Like, I was just fascinated by that.
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  And then when I saw the full frontal nudity in life of Brian, multipythans, life of Brian,
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  that was...
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  Isn't that hilarious?
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  Yeah.
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  You've got a lot of action.
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  You've got a lot of action.
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  I was just fascinated by naked bodies, fascinated by sex.
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  Is it incredible that you needed to be watching the life of Brian to get your porn in the
• 10:00
  80s?
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  Like, what a world today.
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  Like what would become...
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  What do you think is becoming of the little versions of you who are 14 in 2024?
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  With that the amount of access that they have to...
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  Yeah, I think.
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  A good thing or a bad thing to have as much access as we do to porn.
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  What I don't...
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  So I don't think it's either all thing.
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  I think that what we really need today, and I'm really back then as well, but even
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  more so today is we need age-appropriate sex education and porn literacy because I gained
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  access to real pornography at the age of 14.
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  And now that's...
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  On what?
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  The HS tapes?
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  The HS and magazines.
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  So that's what I had.
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  And then eventually dial up from it.
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  Is it different though, aren't they?
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  Then what you can find online.
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  Well, you know, there's more variety online and in some ways it's actually the internet
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  democratized porn.
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  So now you see even more diverse body types being represented and more sexual acts.
• 10:55
  There's every single fetish you can possibly imagine is represented online, which I think
• 11:00
  ultimately is a good thing for adults.
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  It's adult entertainment.
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  It's something made by adults for adults.
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  So it's a great thing for adults because you can find what you're looking for.
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  But you know, when it comes to younger people, really they shouldn't be accessing pornography
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  and I think it's the job of parents to be educating their children.
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  I mean, just on a personal level for you though, do you think that you would be better
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  off growing up in the environment of today or do you think that it was useful for you
• 11:31
  to not have as much access as you could have to the different varieties of porn?
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  I couldn't even answer that question.
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  I mean, that is my history is that's what I had access to.
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  Because I mean, I guess what I'm sort of echoing, I don't have kids who are old enough
• 11:47
  for this to be a problem yet, though I shut her to imagine what's going to happen when
• 11:50
  they are or what the world's going to be like or what kind of virtual reality augmented
• 11:54
  reality headsets they're going to be accessing porn through.
• 11:57
  But you know, there's a concern that I hear that teenagers today have a lot of access
• 12:02
  to porn that can fall into sort of tropes or stereotypes.
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  There's a lot of like, oh, you're choking the woman or you're coming all over her face
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  or like there are things that people regard as being demeaning that perhaps the more
• 12:15
  sort of traditional 1980s VHS tape that you kind of watched because, you know,
• 12:21
  your friend's dad had a stash behind a bookshelf somewhere was probably more inocuous
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  or less weird, facial ejaculations in those VHS tapes.
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  I don't.
• 12:34
  Maybe not that.
• 12:35
  Then like, I don't know, because I don't spend a lot of time exploring the depths of
• 12:40
  online internet porn, I don't know what is out there, but there certainly seems to be
• 12:45
  a sense and it may just be a moral panic.
• 12:46
  Yeah.
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  But there seems to be a sense that there's a landscape of things that young people can
• 12:54
  stumble across today that they couldn't in the past that are probably that, yes, maybe
• 12:59
  10% of it is helpful to their flourishing because it's things they wouldn't otherwise
• 13:02
  have seen.
• 13:03
  They can feel included, diverse body types, fetishes that they might have that are harmless.
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  But then there's a worry that there's a kind of quite misogynistic world of violent
• 13:15
  adjacent porn that is not helpful.
• 13:18
  A mischaracterization of the majority of pornography, I think that anti-porn crusaders are really
• 13:26
  focusing on the things that they don't like and suggesting that that's the majority
• 13:30
  of porn.
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  I mean, there is, you can find anything on the internet, but they'll focus on say a woman
• 13:37
  being submissive in a scene, when there's just as many scenes being shot where a man
• 13:42
  is being submissive, femdom is an extremely popular category of online internet pornography.
• 13:51
  Extremely popular.
• 13:52
  Yeah.
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  And probably of sex work.
• 13:54
  Yeah, sure.
• 13:55
  Yeah.
• 13:56
  So, I just think it's a mischaracterization of what's being shot.
• 14:00
  The majority of mainstream pornography is actually quite vanilla.
• 14:03
  Right.
• 14:04
  Yeah.
• 14:05
  It's your average everyday sex, except there's a camera and they're opening up to the light.
• 14:10
  So let's go back to your adolescence because I think it's fascinating and the evolution
• 14:15
  of your thinking about sexuality and how you wanted to express it.
• 14:19
  So you're like making up with girls, making up with boys.
• 14:21
  This resonates with me a lot.
• 14:23
  I'm married to a guy now, but had long relationships with girls when I was younger.
• 14:28
  And it wasn't quite, didn't clear about why we were so insistent about putting people
• 14:33
  into boxes of, you know, oh, you have to be gay, you have to be, you know, lesbian or
• 14:38
  you have to be straight or you're bisexual.
• 14:40
  I was like, can't you just sort of, like, what about the person, like, isn't it just
• 14:45
  motivated by the person?
• 14:48
  Was that sort of your experience?
• 14:50
  Yeah.
• 14:51
  Well, there was, I mean, I think high school is just a rough place to be because it's
• 14:58
  going to tease you about anything that they can possibly tease you about.
• 15:00
  This was before we had slut walks and an embracing of women exploring their sexuality,
• 15:06
  although it's still not, it's still not where we need to be.
• 15:11
  And but I don't know that if I had chosen a category that I would have been saved.
• 15:16
  I think that the fact that I was wanting to have sex with multiple people was a problem.
• 15:21
  Right.
• 15:22
  Regardless of whether you've been fully straight or fully gay or a woman.
• 15:25
  Yeah, I just think it was just problematic.
• 15:27
  And I think also because I was very unashamed about it and I didn't keep it a secret
• 15:31
  because I was enjoying myself and-
• 15:33
  You probably partly liked prodding people and provoking people.
• 15:37
  I never really thought about that.
• 15:40
  I don't know that I did because I felt ostracized.
• 15:44
  And that was part of me moving into the porn industry and finding this safe space for
• 15:49
  me to express myself with like-minded peers.
• 15:51
  Like, once I got into porn, I really felt like, oh, this is my family.
• 15:54
  Like, this is where I belong.
• 15:56
  So I didn't feel accepted in high school.
• 16:00
  There can be a response to exclusion when I've felt it myself where when you get excluded
• 16:06
  from the Cool Kids Club, you can either try, you know, there's some personality types
• 16:11
  will try to clamour all the more to be included and other personality types, which is like mine,
• 16:16
  will say, fuck you, I never wanted to be part of your club in the first place and do things
• 16:20
  that even further antagonize the club and lean into the outsider status because you don't
• 16:25
  want to be a conformist.
• 16:27
  Yeah.
• 16:28
  So I'm just wondering which of those you-
• 16:29
  I would, I mean, I'm definitely in the latter, I guess, leaning into that and doubling
• 16:34
  down on this is what I want to do.
• 16:36
  Yeah.
• 16:37
  Yeah.
• 16:38
  Fuck you guys.
• 16:39
  Yeah.
• 16:40
  But at the same time, is that like how much of a choice is that, like the choice, the
• 16:41
  two choices I'm given, I'm not given the choice to just be accepted, like to do what I want
• 16:46
  and be accepted.
• 16:47
  I have to either change my behavior.
• 16:48
  No, you give up doing what you want.
• 16:49
  I mean, some people live lives of quiet desperation, suppressing what they actually want
• 16:53
  in order to be, you know, to be supposedly appreciated by people they shouldn't care
• 16:59
  about.
• 17:00
  Okay, I didn't choose that.
• 17:01
  I do.
• 17:02
  Yeah.
• 17:03
  I refuse to choose that.
• 17:04
  Yeah.
• 17:05
  Yeah.
• 17:06
  So you get on a plane.
• 17:07
  How do you know where to go?
• 17:08
  How do you know who to talk to?
• 17:09
  How do you know what to do?
• 17:10
  I had four years to research.
• 17:11
  I was researching what companies were ethical, where I could go that my body type because
• 17:16
  they were still like, in terms of my body type, there were companies that were specifically
• 17:21
  catering to that.
• 17:23
  So there was a company in Miami, Florida, who I contacted, they specialized in large
• 17:27
  natural boobs.
• 17:28
  So I was like, looked at all their magazines and saw the girls, looked exactly like me.
• 17:32
  They had the, had boobs like me.
• 17:35
  And they were flying models from all around the world to different countries.
• 17:39
  And what I noticed, because I was getting these magazines every month, was that these models
• 17:44
  were coming back time and time again.
• 17:46
  And my rationale at that age was like, well, they wouldn't keep coming back if the company
• 17:51
  was acting unethically.
• 17:52
  Yep.
• 17:53
  So I was like, this one, this is a safe place for me to go.
• 17:55
  So back then, I had a CD-ROM old school disc of amateur photos that my friends had taken
• 18:03
  and a handwritten letter that I sent snail mail to the company in Miami.
• 18:08
  And they said, yes, absolutely.
• 18:09
  We want you.
• 18:11
  What friends do you go to to ask them to take photos, erotic photos of you?
• 18:14
  Just the friends that accept me, really, girls and guys.
• 18:17
  They didn't find that weird.
• 18:19
  Well, they did.
• 18:20
  They didn't say it.
• 18:21
  Perfect.
• 18:22
  I think they just knew that that's just Angela.
• 18:26
  And how did you know what to do?
• 18:28
  Were you just sort of absorbing the poses and things that you'd seen from porn or
• 18:32
  porn?
• 18:33
  No, my poses were terrible.
• 18:34
  Like, you'd think I would have after watching it, looking at so much glamour, pornography
• 18:38
  that my poses would be down, no, they weren't.
• 18:40
  But it's kind of, it's kind of cute looking back at the photos.
• 18:44
  Yeah, do you ever look back on those photos?
• 18:45
  Yeah, it's been a while, but looking back, it's because it's a little cringy as well
• 18:48
  to see myself like.
• 18:50
  How does that make you feel?
• 18:52
  It's good to see how far I've come.
• 18:56
  Yeah, it's really nice to see that I've learnt my good side and my bad side of the
• 19:01
  power, how to position myself to look as hot as I possibly can.
• 19:05
  Because that takes time to learn that.
• 19:07
  You really learn that on the job.
• 19:09
  And do you, what do you think when you, I mean, I don't know, if you remember the last
• 19:12
  time you looked at those photos of you as what, 16, 17, 18, 18, you would have been
• 19:18
  at the time.
• 19:19
  But the legal reason is, it's not just whatever taken part of the education.
• 19:24
  Like when you see that girl, what would you say to her if you could talk to her?
• 19:30
  I was like, good job.
• 19:31
  Yeah, because it was the fact that I did just do what I wanted, even though I could have
• 19:37
  just gone with the pressure and stopped having sex with people or maybe been a little
• 19:43
  bit more quiet about it.
• 19:44
  And you know, just gone into a regular job even that's not what I wanted.
• 19:48
  I think.
• 19:49
  Yeah.
• 19:50
  And was the ex too, they flew you out to Miami and what was that experience like?
• 19:53
  What were the first few months in Florida like?
• 19:55
  Well, so I only went out for, I believe it was a week and a half for that first shoot.
• 20:00
  And that's essentially, and were you in a film or was that an audition process?
• 20:03
  Yeah, no, I was in a film.
• 20:04
  Wow.
• 20:05
  I get you straight up.
• 20:06
  Yeah.
• 20:07
  So that, in the beginning of my career, I did eight years of girl girl only.
• 20:09
  So that first, that first trip was just solo, actually.
• 20:13
  Right.
• 20:14
  And then a second trip, they brought me out.
• 20:15
  And did they decide that or did you?
• 20:16
  That was me.
• 20:17
  Yeah.
• 20:18
  That was me.
• 20:19
  Why was that?
• 20:20
  I've always lived by this fuck yeah principle.
• 20:22
  So if someone asked me if I want to do something and it's not an immediate fuck yeah, then
• 20:26
  it's a no.
• 20:27
  And for whatever reason, whenever we talk about boy girl and the potential of shooting
• 20:32
  that, there was always some niggling feeling and I couldn't always put, like couldn't
• 20:36
  always understand why I didn't want to do it.
• 20:38
  But I just knew it wasn't a fuck yeah, like when it was, do you want to have sex with girls
• 20:42
  on camera?
• 20:43
  It was like fuck yeah.
• 20:44
  Right.
• 20:46
  After I finished my degree and I graduated and I was in this sort of transitional period
• 20:51
  of my life that I started thinking about boy girl and getting sexually excited by it.
• 20:56
  And I think, yes, I really want to do this.
• 20:58
  And that's when I decided, okay, now it's time to take the plunge.
• 21:01
  And when you say that you didn't have the fuck yeah about performing with guys initially
• 21:06
  and you didn't know why, do you now know why you didn't?
• 21:10
  I've rationalized it, but I don't really know.
• 21:15
  I follow my gut a lot and I just had my guts were like no, it's not right.
• 21:21
  I don't know if, like the ways I've rationalized, maybe I felt safer with women, also once
• 21:28
  I started doing girl girl and I looked, because I followed a lot of other performers careers,
• 21:34
  I was always interested in what other performers were doing and how they were building their
• 21:38
  brands and how they were keeping themselves safe.
• 21:41
  And whenever I would see a performer transition from girl girl to boy girl, there would be
• 21:46
  outrage online from the fans that were only interested in girl girl content.
• 21:51
  Interesting.
• 21:52
  There was a real, there was actually a bit of a, like misogyny around it, like, oh, now
• 21:56
  she's tainted, now that she's done boy girl, like I can't watch her content anymore.
• 22:01
  So there was a little bit of, okay, so I've built this brand on being a girl girl and
• 22:06
  being a performer.
• 22:08
  If I move into the boy girl's sphere, there's a potential that I'm going to lose that
• 22:12
  fan base, or at least lose a portion of that fan base.
• 22:15
  Am I also willing to do that?
• 22:17
  So I've rationalized that aspect of it, but that can't be, that can't be all of it, because
• 22:22
  I still had that gut feeling before I had known about that potentiality.
• 22:26
  Interesting.
• 22:27
  Yeah.
• 22:28
  So you do these eight films, is that flying back and forth to Australia, eight years of
• 22:33
  girl girl.
• 22:34
  Sorry, eight years, and that's all for the same company in Miami, or different companies.
• 22:39
  So no, a few different companies, so I would, I'd fly over and shoot for them, but then
• 22:44
  I also started performing in the Australian pornography industry, which is very different
• 22:49
  industry.
• 22:50
  Yeah.
• 22:51
  I wanted to know about that.
• 22:52
  What is the industry like in Australia?
• 22:53
  Well, I can't speak to what it's like now, because I've been living in LA since 2016,
• 22:57
  so I don't know how it's changed and evolved from what I can see looking, from looking
• 23:03
  abroad, it looks to be more of an only fan space at this, at this time.
• 23:06
  But back then, when I was performing, you had your classic glamour mags, you had picture,
• 23:11
  people, Zoom magazine, so I was doing the surf.
• 23:14
  And for non-Australians, those are basically sort of, they're kind of gas station, they're
• 23:19
  like cheap gas station magazines.
• 23:21
  Yeah, it's like, we're doing mags.
• 23:22
  Which is a seven point yeah, but we mags, like not hardcore, but kind of girly mags.
• 23:26
  Yeah, exactly.
• 23:27
  And I was doing those, and then there was actually a very big scene in Melbourne specifically,
• 23:33
  and it was very feminist, independent grassroots.
• 23:36
  Like it was really Melbourne was the hub of ethical porn production in the world, in the early
• 23:43
  to mid 2000s.
• 23:44
  Right.
• 23:45
  Yeah.
• 23:46
  I'm interesting that you say Melbourne, because I know that you ran for state parliament,
• 23:50
  did you?
• 23:51
  Yeah, it was a sex party.
• 23:52
  Victorian state election for the Australian sex party, so I ran for the seat of Richmond.
• 23:56
  The opponent, you're for the green party, wanted to ban brothels, Kathleen Moltson, which
• 24:01
  raises a really interesting, like, rift, I think, about the perception of sex, and whether
• 24:06
  or not sex work is liberating for women, or whether it victimises women, and indeed,
• 24:10
  whether or not.
• 24:11
  Do you think of, by the way, just so I don't mess up my terminology, do you think of
• 24:14
  adult film work as sex work?
• 24:16
  Yes, yes.
• 24:17
  Absolutely.
• 24:18
  Yeah, I mean, so they're all in fundamentally the same basket, right?
• 24:21
  Good.
• 24:22
  I just didn't want to.
• 24:23
  Definitely in the same basket, like, sex work is an umbrella term that encompasses everything
• 24:27
  from stripping to brothel work, estimating porn performance.
• 24:31
  In this particular case, we were talking about prostitution, because it was brothels
• 24:34
  that the Greens candidate wanted to ban.
• 24:39
  What do you make of that strain of, you know, you'd sort of understand it if it was a Christian
• 24:42
  conservative?
• 24:43
  Yes.
• 24:44
  It's a green.
• 24:45
  It's a far left person.
• 24:46
  Yes, you would think it would be progressive.
• 24:47
  It would be progressive.
• 24:48
  And probably thinks that they are coming from the progressive feminist standpoint.
• 24:54
  Yeah.
• 24:55
  Do you understand that standpoint?
• 24:58
  I do.
• 24:59
  I mean, when I say I understand it, I mean, I understand their arguments.
• 25:03
  I disagree with them fundamentally.
• 25:05
  Also, I think that a lot of the anti-porn feminist arguments are very infantilizing to women,
• 25:12
  because sex workers will, who advocate for themselves, talk about how when you ban
• 25:17
  sex work, you send it underground, making women less safe in the industry.
• 25:23
  And people like Kathleen Moulson and other anti-sex work feminists are claiming to save
• 25:31
  women by doing things that actually harm them.
• 25:35
  So, I don't know this individual, so I don't want to speak for her.
• 25:38
  But let me steal man the position, like, you know, try to make the most generous version
• 25:44
  of that position and see what you think of it.
• 25:46
  So since time immemorial, women have been suppressed by patriarchal power structures.
• 25:53
  Men have basically been running the show in very, only very recently had women won the
• 25:57
  ability to be treated equally.
• 25:59
  And all along, there's been a kind of a false consciousness that women have been fed,
• 26:03
  which is that they'll find their liberation by either being obedient to their man or being
• 26:08
  subservient or not putting it kicking up too much of a fuss.
• 26:12
  And the modern sex work industry is the latest incarnation of a way in which a fundamentally
• 26:18
  sexist society encourages women to think that they're finding liberation when, in fact,
• 26:24
  it's the oldest profession and the oldest form of control and male manipulation that there
• 26:31
  is.
• 26:32
  I'm really glad that you mentioned the false consciousness part of it, because so a lot
• 26:37
  of these anti-pawn or anti-sex work feminists argue that sex workers have false consciousness.
• 26:43
  But of course, they don't.
• 26:45
  Somehow they've risen above and they don't have false consciousness, but it's the sex
• 26:49
  workers who they infantilise and say, oh, you can't possibly know what you're doing.
• 26:53
  You're actually degrading yourself.
• 26:56
  Right.
• 26:58
  Or you're accidentally complicit in perpetuating systems of oppression.
• 27:04
  Even if you've managed to escape it, maybe put aside the false consciousness thing, maybe
• 27:07
  like, maybe you've found a way to be fulfilled and thoroughly enlightened, but yet the system
• 27:17
  that you're working in is one that abuses women who don't have your advantages every
• 27:22
  single day.
• 27:23
  Do you mean the system as in the entire system?
• 27:27
  No, I mean the system of pornography and sex work.
• 27:30
  That would be the argument.
• 27:31
  I might not be doing a very good job because I'd actually agree with this point of view.
• 27:35
  Because you could argue that about the entire system.
• 27:38
  If we still live in a patriarchal society, then we're as women, we're all working within
• 27:44
  it, right?
• 27:45
  Yes.
• 27:46
  So you can't, we're not outside of it.
• 27:48
  No one's outside of it.
• 27:49
  Elon Musk may get us there someday and we'll be operating from a space station.
• 27:52
  But so far, yes, we are on planet earth operating inside the systems that we are operating
• 27:56
  inside of.
• 27:57
  I guess the argument would be that you're giving Sucker to specifically an industry that
• 28:02
  is founded on the manipulation of women and the superficiality of female appearance and
• 28:08
  the turning up the dial on the most sort of male pleasing, male gaze aspiring aspect of
• 28:17
  womanhood.
• 28:18
  But we are subverting the system if anything, like sex work is queer in that way.
• 28:23
  Like sex work, as a woman, you're supposed to only have sex for procreation and have
• 28:30
  it for free with one man to whom you are married to.
• 28:34
  That's how sex is supposed to work.
• 28:37
  When you are asking men to value your time and services and pay you for sex, you're subverting
• 28:43
  that system.
• 28:44
  All right.
• 28:45
  You've won me over.
• 28:46
  I didn't need a lot of winning over.
• 28:48
  I've got nothing.
• 28:49
  I've got a, we need a religious, we need, I mean, so bizarre, we need a religious conservative
• 28:55
  and also one of these feminists who would be on the same page.
• 29:00
  I mean, the same thing.
• 29:01
  Exactly.
• 29:02
  With surrogacy and sometimes, you know, like, so my partner and I obviously we had our kids
• 29:06
  through surrogacy, you know, a wonderful woman, an incredibly generous woman, you know,
• 29:13
  we're friends with her.
• 29:14
  She's like an auntie to our children.
• 29:16
  She has a family of her own, all above board, and yet what we did in America is illegal
• 29:23
  in Australia, because you're not allowed to compensate the woman, I mean, you're allowed
• 29:26
  to compensate for a literal out of pocket expenses, but you can't just say like, it's
• 29:31
  a big ask.
• 29:32
  So here's enough money for a vacation, even.
• 29:35
  That's against the law because there's this alliance between religious conservatives and
• 29:41
  a certain strand of feminists who think that it's unethical for women to have the ability
• 29:47
  to benefit financially from renting out their womb, as they always say.
• 29:52
  And control over their own bodies might be another way of putting it, but it always
• 29:56
  amazes me that you've got this horse chewing where you've got these feminists who are in
• 30:01
  bed with metaphorically speaking.
• 30:04
  Strange bedfellows.
• 30:05
  Strange bedfellows.
• 30:06
  Very strange.
• 30:07
  What do you make of how do you feel women's rights are?
• 30:10
  Like, there's a lot of over a lot of friends and followers in the states who are extremely
• 30:13
  anxious about the conservatism of America, the Supreme Court, about abortion rights and
• 30:20
  Roe v. Wade and everything.
• 30:22
  What do you make of that?
• 30:24
  Yes, it's quite disturbing.
• 30:28
  I mean, what I'm always focused on is female, well, performers in general in the porn
• 30:35
  on graphene industry.
• 30:36
  So that's where I guess my fight is.
• 30:39
  But in terms of women's rights, I feel like we're going backwards.
• 30:45
  And what needs to be done in the adult film industry then?
• 30:48
  I feel like we're very good at self-regulating.
• 30:51
  We've changed a lot of things within the industry, while the mainstream industry was having
• 30:55
  its Me Too movement.
• 30:56
  The porn industry was also having its own Me Too movement.
• 30:59
  And since that...
• 31:00
  What did that look like?
• 31:02
  Very similar to the mainstream industry in that unethical actors were weeded out.
• 31:08
  So anyone, any directors or producers that were acting unethically were canceled or removed
• 31:14
  from their positions.
• 31:15
  And now all of the big companies have implemented consent boundary checklists.
• 31:21
  So before we actually do any sexual acts on set, the talent sits down with a model liaison
• 31:28
  and we go over an extensive, broad list of sexual acts and...
• 31:33
  What's a model liaison?
• 31:35
  A model liaison or a talent liaison is just somebody there who's to advocate for our rights.
• 31:39
  Right.
• 31:40
  So there, there to...
• 31:41
  So as performers, we sit down, we go through a list.
• 31:43
  It goes from like kissing, nipple pinching, cuddlingas, oral, deep throating, spanking.
• 31:50
  The list is...
• 31:51
  This is like the worst HR form.
• 31:53
  Can you imagine?
• 31:54
  I'm just imagining Jan from the ABC HR department going or are going down the checklist and
• 32:00
  cuddlingas?
• 32:01
  Yes.
• 32:02
  Okay.
• 32:03
  Very good.
• 32:04
  And anal object insertion.
• 32:05
  Yeah, exactly.
• 32:06
  Who's employing the liaison?
• 32:07
  Is there like a...
• 32:08
  The company.
• 32:09
  The company does.
• 32:10
  Yes.
• 32:11
  And they're obliged to...
• 32:12
  No, it's self-regulating now.
• 32:13
  Is it a union or something?
• 32:14
  No.
• 32:15
  As adult workers?
• 32:16
  No.
• 32:17
  No.
• 32:18
  It's...
• 32:19
  We...
• 32:20
  Throughout the entire history, it has not been possible to unionize.
• 32:21
  Is that because of the industry or because of laws?
• 32:24
  It's...
• 32:25
  No, I think it's because...
• 32:26
  I think it's partly because the industry is so diverse.
• 32:29
  Like it just attracts so many different kinds of people all there for different reasons.
• 32:34
  It's very...
• 32:35
  It's hurting cats.
• 32:36
  Yeah, it's...
• 32:37
  It's very...
• 32:38
  It just...
• 32:39
  It just has not worked.
• 32:40
  Right.
• 32:41
  I couldn't give you all the reasons why, but it hasn't worked.
• 32:43
  But I love the fact that the big companies are implementing all these protocols for
• 32:49
  performance safety, even if it is for liability reasons.
• 32:52
  The fact is that they're keeping performers safe by implementing these checklists.
• 32:56
  And prior to that evolution, prior to the MeToo movement, did you have experiences
• 33:01
  where you'd work with companies that were dodgy?
• 33:04
  I was in a very privileged position in that by the time I'd moved to the States, I'd
• 33:09
  already created my own production company, I was already an established director, I had
• 33:13
  performed in hundreds and hundreds of scenes.
• 33:16
  So I already had built a brand.
• 33:19
  So when I finally moved over, that was the first time I had an agent.
• 33:23
  I'd done everything on my own up until that point.
• 33:25
  So by the time I became a speaker girl, which is...
• 33:29
  That's part of the agency, the biggest and most prestigious agency in LA, people...
• 33:37
  I was only going to get booked by the big companies.
• 33:39
  I was only going to be doing what...
• 33:42
  I was calling the shots, I guess, is what you would say.
• 33:46
  So I haven't had any negative experiences.
• 33:49
  Certainly, I had to advocate for myself, which I was always comfortable doing.
• 33:55
  I have been from the moment I started pornography, I think it's very important if you're going
• 33:59
  to be in sex work to be able to know your boundaries, advocate for yourself and be able
• 34:03
  to say no, and as well as a enthusiastic yes.
• 34:09
  So before the MeToo movement, the only company that really had these consent checklists
• 34:14
  was kink.com.
• 34:16
  And obviously they had it, I mean, they were on the forefront of this.
• 34:20
  And they had it because kink.com is a BDSM site.
• 34:24
  So what they do is far more, it's far more important that we, I mean, it's always important.
• 34:30
  But...
• 34:31
  The culture of safe words, and of, yes, exactly.
• 34:35
  Yes, exactly.
• 34:36
  And do you think...
• 34:37
  I mean, the Australian industry must be vanishingly tiny in comparison to...
• 34:40
  Even back then when you were working in comparison to the United States, do you think
• 34:44
  you were able to escape some of those interactions potentially hazardous or dodgy interactions
• 34:49
  because you were based in Australia and you were able to kind of build up your reputation
• 34:52
  here so that when you went back, you didn't have to climb up the ladder.
• 34:55
  Well, I actually built my brand in the States.
• 34:59
  So when I created my production company, all this, all everything that I shot was in
• 35:04
  LA.
• 35:05
  So I was flying back and forth from Australia to LA.
• 35:07
  So I was really establishing myself in LA while I was living in Australia.
• 35:12
  Got it.
• 35:13
  But I think what helped me is that because I was producing and directing myself, I always
• 35:18
  had so much control on set.
• 35:20
  How do you make that happen?
• 35:21
  Like, how do you produce a movie?
• 35:23
  How do you produce a movie?
• 35:24
  Like, I mean, you research, you learn a lot on the job, but like in front of the money.
• 35:30
  Yeah, me.
• 35:31
  Yeah.
• 35:32
  Yeah, it was web camming.
• 35:33
  Right.
• 35:34
  So you do web camming, you make money from that, then you self fund your first movies.
• 35:37
  Well, yeah.
• 35:38
  So really, I mean, it was my fans that funded it because I'm back in Australia, web camming,
• 35:44
  doing a little bit of modeling, but modeling and porn performance in Australia, that wasn't
• 35:48
  enough to give you the income that you need to create a company.
• 35:53
  So this would have been, I mean, you were at the early stages of being able to monetize
• 35:58
  web cam performing.
• 35:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:00
  Yeah.
• 36:01
  I mean, it was, web camming was a fantastic way to build my brand because I was able to
• 36:05
  do it.
• 36:06
  Now everyone's doing it.
• 36:07
  Now everyone's doing it.
• 36:08
  Well, now it's moved on to only fans, only fans is the big money maker now.
• 36:13
  And this is a winner-take-all thing like so many things in into time and time.
• 36:18
  You're at the top of that pack of the only fans.
• 36:22
  What do you make of the evolution of that site and of like how much is exploded?
• 36:26
  It's been fantastic for performers because the rates have increased, because if you're
• 36:32
  a performer and you can make more money setting up a ring light and an iPhone in your bedroom
• 36:38
  and masturbating, then you can going on set and doing a boy girl scene.
• 36:43
  The company's really have to entice you both financially and with their corporate culture
• 36:49
  and their ethics.
• 36:50
  They have to entice you to come onto set.
• 36:53
  It certainly saves you a 15 hour plane ride to Los Angeles as well, if you can do it from
• 36:57
  here.
• 36:58
  Exactly.
• 36:59
  Just do it off me.
• 37:00
  Yeah.
• 37:01
  And what about, I mean, obviously that has had an enormous impact on the industry itself
• 37:04
  and on what's profitable.
• 37:05
  Would you be able to make the films that you were making in the early days now and have them
• 37:11
  become profitable in an era of only fans?
• 37:14
  Yes.
• 37:15
  You would still.
• 37:16
  I mean, the industry is still robust enough.
• 37:18
  Absolutely.
• 37:19
  But if I produce a scene for a DVD, because I do have a DVD distribution line and believe
• 37:25
  it or not, DVDs still make great money.
• 37:27
  DVDs.
• 37:28
  Stream things people.
• 37:30
  What's happening?
• 37:31
  People love DVDs.
• 37:32
  They're a collective.
• 37:33
  Really?
• 37:34
  Yeah.
• 37:35
  They love to have the physical product.
• 37:36
  Right.
• 37:37
  Also, there are still places in the world where the internet connection is not great.
• 37:39
  Sure.
• 37:40
  So getting a DVD.
• 37:41
  But can those places afford a $69 DVD?
• 37:43
  I don't know.
• 37:44
  I don't know.
• 37:45
  $69.
• 37:47
  It's a great price there.
• 37:50
  What do you check on?
• 37:53
  What do you charge for a DVD?
• 37:54
  What's the going on?
• 37:56
  I should know this.
• 37:57
  You just know.
• 37:58
  I should know this.
• 37:59
  Someone's been getting a little bit too hoitty-toity.
• 38:01
  Doesn't know her own DVD.
• 38:02
  I don't know what they are.
• 38:05
  I think they're about $25.
• 38:07
  All right.
• 38:08
  I think.
• 38:09
  Yeah, I think they are.
• 38:10
  So anyway, let's get back to the industry.
• 38:14
  So I'm interested in what is the valley in Los Angeles for people who are familiar with
• 38:20
  L.A. is a bakingly hot part of the city, barely even part of the city, really.
• 38:28
  It's not part of the city.
• 38:29
  It's over the mountains in the north of the city and it's the world headquarters of
• 38:34
  the adult film industry, among other industries, but you were talking before we went on the
• 38:39
  air about how you were doing a group sex scene in the valley in an unair-conditioned studio
• 38:46
  in latex, full latex.
• 38:48
  Right.
• 38:49
  With thigh-high boots.
• 38:51
  Why no air conditioning?
• 38:52
  It's 38 degrees in the shade in San Fernando Valley.
• 38:55
  You have to turn the air conditioning off for the noise.
• 39:00
  Just like here.
• 39:01
  Yeah.
• 39:02
  Yet another similarity between the adult film industry and the uncomfortable conversations
• 39:06
  studio.
• 39:07
  They're both too hot.
• 39:08
  Fans know I am so red in my scenes sweating profusely.
• 39:12
  So they haven't found a solution.
• 39:15
  Some companies will leave the air conditioning on and then just take it out in post, but a
• 39:19
  lot of companies would prefer to take it out.
• 39:22
  They don't care about you.
• 39:23
  They don't care about you.
• 39:25
  We need Elon Musk or someone to come up with a silent air conditioner.
• 39:29
  I think they've gotten better, but I guess there's mics pick up a lot of sound.
• 39:34
  Not good enough.
• 39:36
  So your tilt at politics was short-lived.
• 39:41
  Successful, but short-lived.
• 39:42
  Yeah.
• 39:43
  Would you consider it again?
• 39:46
  Politics is dirty than porn, much dirtier.
• 39:51
  I don't think so.
• 39:52
  I have a lot more fun doing porn.
• 39:54
  Yeah.
• 39:55
  But how long does a porn career last?
• 39:57
  There is this thing of once you've had your successful career in porn, then presumably
• 40:02
  there's a stigma about going, I mentioned Jan from the HR department.
• 40:06
  You go in and you submit your CV or your resume, and there's 30 years of adult film.
• 40:14
  People are judgy.
• 40:15
  Yeah, sure.
• 40:16
  Well...
• 40:17
  Well, cross that bridge when we come to it.
• 40:21
  No, I don't think that's not going to be an issue for me.
• 40:24
  I've been very good with my money.
• 40:29
  So I mean, I could retire right now if I wanted to, but I enjoy performing so much.
• 40:33
  So I have no need to retire at this point.
• 40:38
  So yeah, thankfully I won't have to deal with that.
• 40:40
  But I think that other people that are thinking about entering the industry that are maybe
• 40:46
  not going to be consistent enough to create a career out of it need to consider those things.
• 40:51
  And when you say you enjoy it so much, what are you enjoying about it at this stage?
• 40:54
  Because I mean, I have the personality that when I keep doing something for a few years,
• 40:57
  I sort of want to wander off and do something else and explore different things.
• 41:02
  What still appeals?
• 41:03
  Are you still having sex?
• 41:05
  You're not born of sex, right?
• 41:06
  You're not born of sex.
• 41:07
  I'm not born of sex.
• 41:08
  No.
• 41:09
  No, that's true.
• 41:10
  That's true.
• 41:11
  Sex is very creative.
• 41:12
  But I'm not suggesting that you would give up sex.
• 41:14
  I'm suggesting that you would come up with a point at which having the grip holding
• 41:19
  the light while you're having sex and having a bunch of people just standing around near
• 41:24
  the craft services table with a bunch of sandwiches just off camera while someone's coming
• 41:29
  on your face.
• 41:30
  You might be like, can we just come on my face and private, do we need to have the lighting
• 41:35
  guy in the room?
• 41:36
  It's fun.
• 41:37
  It's a lot of fun.
• 41:38
  Plus, you develop a friendship with these people.
• 41:41
  Like the more you shoot with someone, the better your chemistry, you're building that
• 41:46
  connection with them.
• 41:47
  Right.
• 41:48
  So each time you have sex with them, it gets better and better and better.
• 41:51
  And then there's always new performers coming in.
• 41:53
  So you've got, I mean, I love to explore my sexuality with different people.
• 41:58
  I feel like sex is a conversation and I don't just want to have a conversation with one
• 42:02
  person for the rest of my life.
• 42:03
  I feel like I learn more things about myself and about others when I'm connecting with
• 42:08
  them in an intimate way.
• 42:09
  It's a lot of fun.
• 42:10
  It's creative venture.
• 42:11
  I guess you've now reached a level of status where when those young people do come in,
• 42:16
  they might be a little bit starry-eyed and like, it's kind of excited about.
• 42:20
  To be honest, now, I actually, I don't work with brand, brand, brand new performers.
• 42:26
  I wait till they've kind of gone, done a few scenes first, got some under their belt
• 42:33
  because it can be a little bit much.
• 42:36
  Right.
• 42:37
  And do you have a preference of sex at the moment of which gender I'm in?
• 42:40
  No, no.
• 42:41
  You do both still?
• 42:42
  Everything.
• 42:43
  Yeah.
• 42:44
  Everyone.
• 42:45
  You mentioned that there are some performers who you like to go back to because you build
• 42:48
  that relationship.
• 42:49
  Do you have a stable of particular favourites?
• 42:51
  I do.
• 42:52
  I'm not going to get you in that.
• 42:53
  No, I don't.
• 42:54
  I mean, well, my fans will know because they'll see me working with them again and again
• 42:58
  and again and again and again.
• 42:59
  Right.
• 43:00
  And what's your relationship like offset?
• 43:01
  Do you guys catch up?
• 43:02
  Do you hang out?
• 43:03
  Do you ever have sex off screen?
• 43:05
  It depends on the person.
• 43:07
  I've found it's better to keep a little bit of distance because once you start having sex
• 43:15
  with your co-workers off screen, you kind of lose some of the magic on set.
• 43:20
  So I like to keep that sexual tension for when we're at work.
• 43:24
  Yeah.
• 43:25
  If you start having sex with them off camera, firstly, it can create drama.
• 43:27
  That's why, you know, don't date within the industry because if you have a falling out,
• 43:33
  then there's one less male talent or female talent that you can work with.
• 43:36
  Then especially male talent, there's not many to go around.
• 43:38
  So you don't want to be in a situation where they end up on your no list.
• 43:43
  Why is there not much male talent to go around?
• 43:44
  It's a very tough job.
• 43:45
  It's a very hard job.
• 43:47
  It is.
• 43:48
  But there are pharmacological solutions to that problem.
• 43:51
  Sure, there are now.
• 43:53
  There are now.
• 43:54
  But it's still a tough job, even with those solutions, you still have to be aroused and
• 44:01
  you have to be aroused in front of numerous people.
• 44:05
  And depending on the set that could be anywhere from five people to 25 people, you have to be
• 44:11
  able to have stamina on very, very hot days with no air conditioning.
• 44:16
  You need to be able to fuck on anything anywhere.
• 44:18
  I've had scenes where I've been fucking on a rock outside in summer.
• 44:22
  It's difficult.
• 44:23
  I mean, it's difficult for every performer, but the male performers have an additional
• 44:28
  thing to worry about, which is keeping their dick hard.
• 44:32
  And how frequently is it that there's a problem there that like you're halfway through
• 44:35
  a scene and it's just not, the person isn't up to it.
• 44:38
  I'm very picky about the people that I shoot with.
• 44:42
  So I'm really working with the top male talent who can get hard and stay hard in any environment.
• 44:49
  And across the industry, though, do you have an estimation, like, I mean, if we took a
• 44:52
  snapshot right now of all the adult films that are being shot globally, what fraction of
• 44:57
  them are running into problems with their stamina of their male stars?
• 45:01
  Oh, yeah.
• 45:02
  There was definitely...
• 45:03
  I started producing and directing and not when you're on the ground in LA and you have
• 45:09
  all those informal information networks, you hear on set about like who's struggling
• 45:14
  on set or who can perform and who can't perform.
• 45:17
  And so it's much easier when you're doing your casting to be like, okay, we're going to
• 45:22
  get these two people.
• 45:23
  Or even like maybe a male talent is great, but they're not great at a particular sex
• 45:28
  act, or they're not great with, you know, this girl who's friends with their ex-girlfriend.
• 45:33
  You know, like, you learn all these things on the ground, but when I was coming across
• 45:37
  from Australia, I was just booking the male talent that I saw on sets and like, oh, he
• 45:42
  looks great or he looks very passionate and then, you know, finding out on set, okay,
• 45:47
  he struggles when it's too hot or...
• 45:50
  Interesting.
• 45:51
  And is there an age thing to it?
• 45:52
  I mean, most people would think that a 22-year-old is going to be able to get hard and
• 45:55
  go like the clappers, whereas a 38-year-old might not.
• 45:58
  Is that true?
• 45:59
  No.
• 46:00
  That's not true.
• 46:01
  I think the older male talent are more solid.
• 46:03
  In my opinion.
• 46:04
  Yeah.
• 46:05
  Good to know.
• 46:06
  Yeah.
• 46:07
  Especially like older European.
• 46:08
  Yeah.
• 46:09
  Yeah.
• 46:10
  The perfect age group.
• 46:11
  Yeah.
• 46:12
  I'm flattered.
• 46:13
  But maybe that could be biased, because I'm more sexually attracted to older men.
• 46:17
  Well, I mean, it could also be that just by definition, if you're not good, then you
• 46:21
  don't stay around in the industry for that long.
• 46:23
  Right.
• 46:24
  And if you've lasted until your 38, then it means that you had something to begin with.
• 46:28
  Yeah.
• 46:29
  Why European?
• 46:30
  Why do you say that?
• 46:31
  The Europeans are kinkia.
• 46:34
  Like, they're more perverted.
• 46:36
  And I know I'm generalizing, but I'm just talking about, you know, the group of European
• 46:41
  male talent within the LA industry that are the top of their game.
• 46:45
  Not the 350 million Europeans, not the old Polish grammar, but maybe...
• 46:50
  Just specifically this subset of European male.
• 46:53
  And what are they, Germans?
• 46:54
  Or...
• 46:55
  Um...
• 46:56
  French Italian...
• 46:57
  The lovers.
• 46:58
  You're the lovers.
• 46:59
  Right.
• 47:00
  Yeah, Spanish.
• 47:01
  I think of the Germans as being like very uptight, but also with like weird, you know, kinks,
• 47:07
  you know, because they're, because they're so buttoned up and they're so, they're not
• 47:09
  allowed.
• 47:10
  They have no, they have no passion or love in their culture, so they end up just
• 47:13
  shitting on each other's faces when they get inside of their clothes room.
• 47:16
  Whereas the Italians and the French obviously are much more expressive about Rome.
• 47:21
  They're very, very good lovers.
• 47:22
  How they?
• 47:23
  Yes.
• 47:24
  I'm French, Australian, so that's just good to know.
• 47:27
  There you go.
• 47:28
  Little flex.
• 47:29
  Hell?
• 47:30
  Little.
• 47:31
  Little.
• 47:32
  Big flex.
• 47:33
  How have beauty standards changed over the time that you've been in the industry?
• 47:37
  I mean, you can see the norms of what women look like, change in the past five or ten
• 47:43
  years.
• 47:44
  There's been a much more, I think, aggressive uptake of quite an openly cosmetic surgery
• 47:49
  look, with lip fillers and Botox and stuff, but going from being things that people are
• 47:55
  using just to try to give them a little tweak to try to look ten years younger, to now
• 48:01
  being an actual type of looking or a way of looking or a type of Kardashian-ized face.
• 48:07
  Is that true in porn as well?
• 48:08
  What do you make of that trend?
• 48:10
  Well, porn.
• 48:11
  Like, there's a market for everything and everyone, so no matter what your body type or
• 48:16
  whether you're a naturally, you know, with the natural look or the purposely enhanced,
• 48:21
  sex doll look, there's a market for you.
• 48:23
  But if you look at the top row of performers on porn hubs, so the performers that are
• 48:29
  search the most, the most popular performers usually have the more natural look.
• 48:36
  And I would guess that has something to do with the attainability, put that in quotation
• 48:43
  marks.
• 48:44
  Like, the idea that you'll notice that the most popular women in porn have a natural look
• 48:55
  that, like, it's more of a girl next door look, like there's a potential that you might
• 48:58
  meet this woman on the street and have a date with her and suddenly she's sucking the
• 49:04
  soul out of your dick like a demon.
• 49:05
  You know, like, there's something about that sexual fantasy, like there's a chance that
• 49:09
  I could have sex with her and it would be the most incredible sex of my life.
• 49:14
  And when we're coming back to this conversation about whether or not porn and, like, sex
• 49:19
  work is a victimizing phenomenon or a liberating one, you obviously found it to be liberating.
• 49:25
  Now there's this whole parallel conversation about beauty standards, right?
• 49:28
  And you were saying that when you were a kid, all of the images of models that you saw
• 49:32
  were this very cliched, unrealistic, skinny, wayfish thing.
• 49:36
  Now it's more diverse in terms of body size.
• 49:39
  And yet it's more conformist in this pursuit of what the perfect face looks like.
• 49:45
  Do you regard it as being a liberating feminist thing that there are so many neighborhoods
• 49:51
  in so many cities where women are aspiring towards the same type of look or is that a
• 49:57
  constraining thing?
• 50:03
  I'm, as a feminist myself, I feel like women should have the right to do what they want
• 50:09
  with their body, whether that's anthropography and have sex with as many people as they want
• 50:14
  or whether that's also their appearance.
• 50:16
  I think that, you know, as long as they're not feel, I mean, I don't know, it's a really
• 50:24
  tough question.
• 50:25
  It makes sense.
• 50:26
  Sort of the false consciousness thing again, doesn't that?
• 50:28
  I can feel your reticence to about judging other women and I get that, like nobody
• 50:34
  has to ban people from getting lip fillers, right?
• 50:38
  But when you go to a conservative Muslim society and you see all women veiled and you go
• 50:45
  and Muslim feminists will say that's their sense of expression, that's their sense of
• 50:49
  self, like for them, that is a feminist drive that they feel is being expressed by the
• 50:56
  wearing of the veil.
• 50:57
  They feel protected.
• 50:58
  They feel, they feel like that is enriching to them.
• 51:02
  I always think, yeah, but you can't really know that because they're living in an environment
• 51:07
  in which there are so many cultural penalties for not doing that and so many unspoken
• 51:13
  advantages to doing it, but it's not a fully free choice.
• 51:18
  And then they say, well, what about the women in the West who are all dressed up and
• 51:24
  doled up and they've all got the lip fillers and the Botox and the bikinis on the beach,
• 51:29
  whereas they're cultural right to be more humble.
• 51:34
  They're all these incentives to look that way, culturally and disincentives not to look
• 51:38
  that way.
• 51:40
  And I find myself thinking, okay, maybe there is a bit of misguided priorities going around
• 51:46
  all over the place.
• 51:47
  But why are we focusing on women, men have the same pressures?
• 51:50
  Absolutely, absolutely, but you're a woman and you work in that industry.
• 51:53
  But if you want to ask me about men, I'll talk about that.
• 51:56
  But I guess I just find that a lot of the time these debates are happening, it's always
• 51:59
  like about women getting plastic surgery and and men are just like out of the picture.
• 52:05
  Like obviously there's pressures on men to look a certain way to have a certain.
• 52:09
  Well, I mean, I would certainly say that the 10 or 15 years ago, I think it may have
• 52:14
  been more pronounced with men in that young guy, the whole metrosexual phase, right, where
• 52:18
  the young guys were going, were transitioning from a burly, hairy, like masculine, George
• 52:24
  Clooney, Gregory Peck, version of masculinity to the, I guess, Timothy Chalamet, like wayfish
• 52:29
  kind of, like, you know, everything being pruned and pruned and and hairless.
• 52:34
  Then yeah, I would say that that is a way in which they're chasing something that is
• 52:42
  imposed by the culture in invisible ways.
• 52:44
  But do you think it's imposed in the same way as it was a decade or two decades ago because
• 52:49
  of the democratization of like body types within the media? I feel like there's not one look
• 52:56
  that's prescribed for men or for women. So isn't it? That's true. Like, I don't know.
• 53:03
  I feel like it's, we're in a better place right now because it's not just one beauty standard.
• 53:07
  There's, there are different ways that you can be beautiful that are accepted within society.
• 53:12
  Yes. And I suppose you're, I'm talking about being within a cohort or a sub community in which
• 53:17
  there are quite obvious norms. I mean, like, there are suburbs in Sydney and the eastern suburbs
• 53:23
  where everybody is aspiring to the same look. It's quite amazing. I mean, you walk down the street
• 53:29
  in Bondi and there is a Kardashianization of female aesthetics. It's undeniable. It's not like
• 53:37
  that though. Like, if you want to look at the, as I was saying, like, with the, you know,
• 53:41
  the top performers on PornHub, and I say that only because that's visible to people, whereas,
• 53:46
  you know, the top performers on other sites are more, it's more secretive. You'll notice that
• 53:51
  there's, they don't all look the same. There's not this sort of, like a porn look, like all different
• 53:58
  shapes, noses, some lips are enhanced, some lips are not enhanced. You know, you've got me on there
• 54:03
  with big natural boobs and then you've got Riley Reid, who's almost flat-tested. Like, it's so diverse
• 54:09
  what's popular. All that, all that it means to me is that the people who are chasing the particular
• 54:14
  Botox look are, you know, false consciousness because that's not actually what people want.
• 54:18
  That's not what people are watching. It's not what people are aroused by, but they're all
• 54:22
  pursuing it anyway. I have pressure to not get a nose job. I have a deviated septum. That's
• 54:28
  really bad, actually, for my breathing. Like, yeah, like my left nostril collapses 80% and my right
• 54:34
  nostril collapses 100%. Look at that. It's really bad, but I know it's just from having a nose
• 54:43
  that who knows it's just I was born this way. So I've always had, I've always struggled to breathe
• 54:49
  out of my nose, but I know that if I change my look at all, like my fans follow me because,
• 54:55
  well, there's many reasons why I have like a very loyal fan base, but obviously part of it
• 54:59
  has to do with the way I look. To hear the rest of this conversation, go to uncomfortable
• 55:05
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