Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Recentering AI in Education on Learning & Pedagogy | Tara Nattrass

Transcript

Recentering AI in Education on Learning & Pedagogy | Tara Nattrass · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
0:03
podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
0:07
Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
0:09
as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
0:12
technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
0:15
conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
0:18
we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
0:21
and ready to innovate. Hey, welcome to The Intergroup,
0:26
this EdTech podcast. I'm David Berner, joined
0:28
by co -host Jeremy Mikla. And today we have a
0:31
special guest with us, Tara Natrus. Tara has
0:35
had a bunch of different experiences in the education
0:38
field, and we'll be able to learn about those
0:40
and talk with Tara today. Tara and I have actually,
0:44
I think we've run into each other a couple times.
0:47
I think maybe once at ISTE and then for sure,
0:50
I know at least one time, which was recently
0:52
at FETC and had a chance to attend a session
0:56
with Tara and Kip Glazer actually on AI. It was
1:00
a great session and had a great time at FETC.
1:05
But Tara, welcome to the show. And do you want
1:08
to kind of get us started and just tell our our
1:12
viewers and listeners, how you got to where you
1:14
got to today and all your different experiences.
1:17
Thanks so much for having me. It's really good
1:19
to be here with you both. And I know David, we
1:22
had a chance to connect at FETC and probably
1:25
in lots of other places, right? As I meet people
1:27
and go, how did we not know each other before?
1:30
I think we had that moment when we were at FETC
1:34
and really wanted to continue the conversation
1:37
that was happening both at the session with Kip
1:40
and then more broadly around what's happening
1:43
in the education space related to AI, related
1:46
to - of reinventing what's happening in schools
1:49
more broadly. And so throughout my career, I
1:53
have really been focused on what I used to talk
1:56
about is reinventing learning. But now I'll talk
1:59
about as reinventing what's happening in our
2:02
schools and in our classrooms, because we have
2:04
a good understanding of what's happening with
2:08
the learning process. Now we need to take that
2:11
and really apply it into what's happening in
2:13
our schools and districts. And so I started my
2:16
career like many others in the classroom as an
2:20
educator, primarily teaching elementary school,
2:24
third and fourth grade, which is a great space
2:27
to be in, I think, and then continued in lots
2:31
of teacher leadership roles and school and district
2:36
leadership roles. And regardless of that work
2:41
and those roles really was thinking about how
2:44
we can make school awesome and meaningful for
2:48
our kids. So like many of us, your first year
2:51
as a teacher, you're just trying to figure things
2:53
out. I remember the moment on the first day of
2:56
school, my first year of teaching when all of
2:59
the kids are coming into your classroom and you're
3:01
like. oh now what? Right? Like I have these kids
3:04
and they are my responsibility for this entire
3:07
school year and you spend that first year learning
3:10
and then I've had these distinct moments throughout
3:14
my career like that summer I did some project
3:18
construct and writing training and other things
3:21
and realized like oh there are lots of different
3:24
ways that we can engage students and teach differently.
3:28
and have kind of carried that with me. I was
3:30
the teacher that wrote grants for an outdoor
3:32
garden and took kids on all kinds of field trips
3:36
and found grants to do it so that we were engaged
3:38
in really authentic learning. And I think my
3:42
initial understanding of that has only grown
3:45
as a building leader and a district leader and
3:49
really thinking about what are the ways that
3:51
we can create flexible and adaptable environments
3:54
for our students. How do we build competency
3:57
-based learning environments? How do we ensure
4:00
that when we are bringing technology into the
4:02
classrooms, we're doing it in really meaningful
4:04
ways? And so doing that as a building leader,
4:09
most recently I was the assistant suit for teaching
4:12
and learning in Arlington Public Schools in Virginia.
4:15
and then transitioned out of that role into more
4:18
consultative roles at several organizations,
4:23
including ISTE and ASCD, where I managed innovation
4:27
strategy, which really meant a lot of our AI
4:29
work, a lot of our higher education work, and
4:33
a lot of our professional learning. And over
4:35
the last year or so have been at Lenovo as the
4:38
chief innovation strategist, where I've continued
4:41
on that journey. All of those roles have really
4:43
been about making school awesome and a place
4:47
where our kids are learning at high levels and
4:49
there's a sense of belonging and high community.
4:53
And you also taught it in England, right? At
4:57
some point? Yes. Yeah, I taught third grade at
5:00
an international school right outside of London.
5:03
Was there anything that was like starkly different,
5:07
you know, from what you experience here in the
5:11
U .S.? Yeah, so. The systems are a bit different
5:15
because I was in an international school. There
5:18
was an IB curriculum. We have lots of IB programs
5:21
across the US as well. And so there are a lot
5:26
of similarities with some nuance differences.
5:30
But I think no matter where we are, the focus
5:34
really is on how do we help our students. get
5:40
excited about learning, have the joy in school.
5:42
I will say one of the things that was different
5:47
but doesn't have to be was the focus on the joy
5:52
that comes with learning because there wasn't
5:54
a focus on accountability and testing and a lot
5:58
of the things that we put a lot of weight on
6:02
within an international school that there. Felt
6:06
like there was a little bit more joy and a little
6:09
bit more freedom and what was happening in classrooms
6:12
Yeah, and I think that's important to note that
6:16
you know, I think as you were saying learning
6:18
should be joyful, but You know, it's also it
6:21
is the thing that we should be focusing on here,
6:24
regardless of the amount of technology that you
6:26
integrate into what you do in the classroom.
6:29
And I think that brings up this piece that you
6:31
wrote for ASCD called re -centering the AI in
6:35
education conversation. And basically, I think
6:40
your premise is everyone seems to be obsessing
6:44
over AI tools, you know, and really, that's the
6:49
wrong conversation that we should be having.
6:51
We should be talking more about what is learning
6:53
supposed to look like. Can you talk any more
6:56
about that? And I have shifted, I think I wrote
7:00
that about a year or so ago and you both know
7:03
with the AI and education conversation, what
7:06
we're talking about today, most likely we weren't
7:08
even talking about yesterday. But I think a lot
7:11
of what is in that article still holds true.
7:15
I shifted it a little bit to say that the AI
7:19
and education journey. isn't actually about AI,
7:23
right? And so when we think about what we are
7:26
focusing on within these conversations, we have
7:30
spent a lot of time and rightfully so on defining
7:34
what we mean by AI in education and talking about
7:37
the opportunities and risks and thinking about
7:39
the implications for things like digital citizenship.
7:43
But what it's really about is How do we use this
7:47
as a catalyst to say, if AI exists, and we know
7:53
that these are the ways in which we are engaging,
7:57
especially with an arrival technology that most
8:00
people have access to immediately, this isn't
8:02
like rolling out a learning management system
8:05
where we're going to take three to five years
8:07
and train people and start at different grade
8:09
levels. it is an arrival technology that is immediate,
8:12
right? And we have to figure out how we navigate
8:14
that. And so I think it's a catalyst for if this
8:19
exists, what are the things that are most essential
8:23
for us within the education space? And how do
8:26
we leverage things like the science of learning
8:30
and elevate the skills that matter most and really
8:33
prioritize relationships and connections and
8:36
then think about How does AI support us in doing
8:41
that? As opposed to having AI be the lead, right?
8:45
The lead is what we want to see from a teaching
8:48
and learning perspective. AI is then the, can
8:51
it help us in that? And if it can, that's fantastic.
8:55
And if it can't, then maybe it isn't part of
8:57
that particular learning experience. Right, and
9:02
that's where I think it's important to recognize
9:05
the experiences that a teacher has that really
9:09
AI can't replace. AI can't replace, I think,
9:13
that teacher's knowledge of their students, you
9:15
know, the time that they spend to really get
9:17
to know them, to be able to understand how learning
9:19
is going to impact them. But a teacher could
9:22
draw upon AI to be that source to help give them
9:25
ideas, to help maybe structure and activity in
9:29
such a way that it's going to engage more of
9:31
their students in that personalized way. Yeah,
9:35
I mean, the context matters, right? And so knowing
9:38
the context, knowing your students, being able
9:41
to read the room and understand that when students
9:49
engage in a particular way or behave in a particular
9:52
way, you know and understand why they're doing
9:54
that and can respond accordingly, right? Like
9:56
that's what teachers are doing. I can't remember,
9:59
but there's data out there somewhere about the
10:01
number of decisions teachers make in a day, right?
10:04
Based on that kind of feedback and the interactions
10:08
they have. And it's astonishing when you think
10:10
about the numbers. And I think those are the
10:13
kinds of things that while AI, can respond to
10:17
how a student answered a question, it's not in
10:21
the same way because of the lack of context and
10:24
other kind of indicators and clues that teachers
10:27
often have. Do you feel like teachers, if they're
10:31
making these, you know, I've seen statistics
10:34
like that, too, with the hundreds of decisions
10:36
after. at any given moment, right? And so do
10:39
you think teachers are sometimes, do they get
10:42
caught up in looking for the efficiency that
10:45
maybe AI can bring and then they lose sight of
10:47
some of the more impactful things that AI can
10:50
also bring? Or is it just enough that it might
10:52
help them save some time that they can then turn
10:55
around and use in more productive ways? So I
10:58
think. when generative AI, right? Because we
11:02
also say AI, and AI means lots of different things
11:06
to different people. And we've had AI in our
11:10
classrooms in different ways for at least the
11:13
last decade or so. When you look at a lot of
11:15
the reactive and predictive AI tools that are
11:17
out there. And then several years ago when generative
11:21
AI came on the scene, the conversation became
11:26
about initially efficiencies. because people
11:29
can see how quickly you could create something.
11:32
And we've had to kind of backpedal from that
11:36
conversation to say, when we're talking about
11:40
generative AI, when we're talking about agentic
11:42
AI, it is yes about efficiency, but it's about
11:47
more than that, right? What are the things that
11:50
make sense to automize? What are the things that
11:54
make sense to be more efficient in? And whether
11:58
or not that frees up some time, I think is still
12:02
a conversation, right? Because as you're trying
12:05
to get the AI tools to do the things you want
12:07
them to do, it has evolved so rapidly in the
12:11
last several years that we can do things we couldn't
12:16
even do six months ago, but trying to figure
12:19
out that where the efficiencies make sense, where
12:24
do I stay engaged and how do I How am I still
12:28
part of the process? I think is a lot of what
12:30
we're grappling with right now. But the conversation
12:32
started with efficiency, and now we're starting
12:35
to shift it into a lot of other things. Can you
12:40
talk a little bit about this concept of durable
12:42
skills when it comes to students? Like as you
12:46
look at what's been around for a long time now,
12:50
is that the four C's concept? critical thinking,
12:53
creative thinking, communication, collaboration,
12:54
all those things that have been around for a
12:57
while. How do you feel like AI is impacting that
13:02
in terms of schools? Is it forcing them to pursue
13:07
those more? What do you think as far as those
13:10
things are the impact of those four C's as it
13:15
comes to AI? Yeah, so a lot of schools, districts,
13:20
and even states have portraits of a graduate,
13:23
profiles of a graduate, you know, portraits of
13:26
a learner. They call them multiple different
13:29
things. Really trying to get at learning is,
13:33
yes, about knowledge. It's also that content
13:37
knowledge, but it's also about skills and attitudes
13:39
or attributes. And we are starting to see kind
13:45
of a resurgence of those particular skills. And
13:50
even when we look at resources like the World
13:53
Economic Forum puts out, you know, the future
13:55
of work report. And if you look at the top 10
13:58
skills from that report, the first three are
14:02
AI and big data, networks and cybersecurity and
14:06
technological literacy. All three of those have
14:09
a technology base to them. But then there are
14:14
also things in there like creative thinking,
14:17
curiosity and lifelong learning, analytical thinking,
14:20
resilience, flexibility and agility. And so while
14:25
those three are there, the other seven are all
14:28
interpersonal and interpersonal skills and how
14:31
we bring those into the classroom to ensure that
14:36
our students have. opportunities to engage in
14:39
those skills throughout the course of the school
14:42
day is more important now than I think it was
14:44
before, because if we all have access to this
14:48
technology that can allow us to do things that
14:52
weren't possible before, how we engage with that
14:55
technology and how we engage with one another
14:58
is really going to be the differentiator. Right.
15:01
And so how we build those skills matters quite
15:05
a bit. And we're seeing that in all kinds of
15:08
reports, whether from the world's economic forum
15:10
or others, that these are the essential skills
15:14
as we move forward. What do you think those those
15:18
essential skills that you mentioned? Have you
15:21
seen any good examples of or what would you consider
15:24
some of the ways where districts can start to
15:28
implement those to get Students some of those
15:31
opportunities. Do you think that they because
15:34
of our access with AI and things like that? They're
15:36
just happening naturally and we're they're able
15:39
to do some some of them or what's your thoughts
15:42
on how to approach? Ensuring that students get
15:46
opportunities to engage in those opportunities
15:51
for gaining those skills. Yes, some of it. is
15:57
what we've known for a long time around how we
16:02
engage with students and thinking about the conversations
16:08
around the science of learning and conversations
16:11
around, like you said, the six C's and things.
16:14
And I think. where we are right now, you said
16:16
four, but sometimes it's four, sometimes it's
16:18
five, sometimes it's six. Like pick your number
16:20
of Cs, right? Depending on what it is you're
16:22
looking at, but for some reason it's always been
16:25
Cs. And then someone adds something, you're like,
16:27
wait, what? That's a different letter. But either
16:29
way, that same concept. And I think what we are
16:33
really thinking through right now is the, how
16:36
does AI play a role in that? And so when you
16:39
ask about... how districts might bring those
16:43
C's into the conversation. I'm seeing it some
16:48
where districts are also focusing on building
16:51
AI literacy. Because when we talk about AI literacy,
16:56
we're talking about much more than the technical
16:58
skills. We're also talking about the durable
17:00
skills, the future ready attitudes and. asking
17:04
students to critically evaluate the benefits,
17:07
risks, and implications of AI literacy. And so
17:11
a very concrete example of all of this, we have
17:14
often, in schools, asked kids to write five paragraph
17:17
essays. And that could be on any number of things.
17:22
There's also been research done that five paragraph
17:25
essays don't exist outside of school, but that's
17:27
a whole nother conversation that we often ask
17:31
kids to write a five paragraph essay on any number
17:34
of topics. And so imagine that we are asking
17:38
students to write a five paragraph essay on the
17:42
causes of housing affordability challenges. If
17:46
I ask a student to do that now, what might they
17:50
do? You guys can take that as a rhetorical question
17:57
now, right? But if you're a student right now
17:58
and you say like, write a five paragraph essay
18:00
on the causes of local housing affordability,
18:03
you might go to your favorite AI tool, give it
18:06
that as a prompt and come up with an essay, right?
18:09
So we're really going into this world of what
18:14
then does assessment look like? And how do I
18:17
know if students have learned the things I need
18:19
them to learn? When we're thinking about those
18:23
four or five or six C's. And so one of the things
18:28
that we're starting to see a lot more in schools
18:30
are performance tasks. We've been talking about
18:33
performance tasks for decades in schools, but
18:36
the realization that if we're building out performance
18:39
tasks, not only are we asking students to engage
18:43
in those skills, but what we're also doing is
18:47
asking them to think about how AI might be used
18:51
to support critical thinking or communication
18:55
or some of those other C's that we talk about.
18:59
And so instead of that five paragraph essay on
19:01
affordable housing, what if we asked them to
19:05
investigate the root causes as to why it's so
19:08
challenging to have affordable housing in particular
19:11
communities or to analyze the stakeholder impacts
19:16
or to model budget implications. and not only
19:20
ask them to do that kind of work, but one of
19:23
the districts I was working with recently also
19:27
then said to their students, OK, if this is our
19:30
assignment, in what ways do you all think AI
19:35
would enhance your learning and would be responsible
19:38
use? In what ways would it? not be allowable,
19:44
right? How might you use it in your work if you're
19:46
doing a task like this? So now all of a sudden,
19:49
I'm not only building the thinking that we need
19:54
for our students, but I'm also strengthening
19:55
AI literacy. And so the students come up with
19:58
a list like, well, I think we should use AI or
20:02
could be able to use AI to do things like brainstorm
20:05
policy options or draft the headlines after we
20:10
figured out our piece or translate a survey.
20:13
But we're not going to use AI to create citations
20:17
or quotes or write the policy brief on its own.
20:23
students are having to engage in a lot of those
20:26
durable skills to do an assignment like this
20:29
while also building in AI literacy. So that's
20:34
a practical example of like, how do we do this?
20:36
What does it actually look like on the ground
20:38
in a classroom? I want to kind of jump off that
20:41
AI literacy point here that you're just talking
20:44
about here a little bit. And, you know, I think
20:46
it is very valuable for students, but I think
20:49
also for our teachers, is to make sure that they
20:53
are getting the AI literacy training that they
20:56
need as well, right? But I'm kind of like, I'm
21:01
struggling with this a little bit myself, is
21:04
in many of the sessions that I present at, and
21:07
I know David does as well, how much of the learning
21:12
about AI Do teachers need to have or learning
21:16
with AI? Is there a balance to strike between
21:20
there or, you know, and I've seen many different
21:22
parts of that conversation taking place where
21:25
no, just get it in the hands of the teachers,
21:27
let them go, you know, and others are like, no,
21:30
in order to really understand what it's doing,
21:32
you have to look underneath the hood, you know,
21:34
and you have to do more than just point out,
21:36
you know, there's the dipstick. This is where
21:37
you put gas in, you know, like. to understand
21:40
how the functionality of what you're using impacts
21:45
the output of what you get. And I think there
21:50
needs to be some knowledge around functionality,
21:55
like understanding what is a large language model,
21:59
right? And that essentially we always say we're
22:02
predicting the next most likely word when you're
22:04
using a generative AI tool, right? That is generating
22:09
a text for you. I don't think that we have to
22:13
know the intricacies of that. One of the things
22:17
that I often talk with educators about is what
22:22
we talked about a little bit earlier, and that
22:24
there are different types of AI. And when people
22:28
think about AI, what comes to mind is going to
22:31
be very different for different people. And so
22:34
knowing and understanding that there are predictive,
22:37
reactive, or classical AI, depending on who you
22:40
talk to, right? But all of those things kind
22:42
of meaning the tools that are analyzing historical
22:45
data and they're predicting future events. So
22:47
your Netflix that is recommending the next three
22:50
things to watch, right? We all have been using
22:54
those tools now for quite some time. Then we've
22:57
got the generative AI conversation, which is
22:59
about generating new content and outputs. the
23:02
agentic AI conversation where these tools are
23:06
really making decisions and taking steps and
23:09
adapting based on new information and oftentimes
23:13
on their own with the checking back and forth.
23:16
And then we talk about physical AI. Do I need
23:20
to know and understand, right? Which are the
23:22
robots that everyone, when you hit AI, right?
23:25
They go, oh, robots. And some people do, others
23:27
don't, but that physical AI piece. I don't know
23:30
that... folks need to know and understand all
23:34
of the intricacies behind those, but they need
23:36
to know that they exist and that they're often
23:39
working in concert in a lot of the tools that
23:43
we already have available to us. So, you know,
23:46
AI is being integrated into a lot of the digital
23:50
platforms that have been in our schools for a
23:52
long time. I need to know and understand that.
23:55
I need to know and understand that these tools
23:58
do still hallucinate and will make mistakes.
24:01
I was working with one today and it kept changing
24:03
a map I had and I was like, no, this is the state
24:06
I want. But it's still going to hallucinate sometimes.
24:11
It does have harmful bias and we need to be checking
24:16
for that. I can use it to create lots of misinformation
24:19
and disinformation if I choose to do so. I need
24:23
to understand those things as an educator, because
24:26
if I'm going to be using these tools to create,
24:30
I have to know and understand that what I am
24:33
creating may not always give me the exact result
24:35
I want. And so I do think it's important that
24:39
we understand there are different types of AI,
24:42
that there are risks associated with those, and
24:46
then I can start utilizing those tools. And one
24:51
of the big things too is we have where there's
24:56
the trainings that need to happen. We need to
24:58
get teachers up to speed on all the things that
25:01
AI is and how to use it, how to implement it
25:03
with your curriculum. And then there's the student
25:05
side and all of that. One of the things that
25:07
we've been looking at a lot and you and I talked
25:10
about this actually in our previous meeting together
25:13
about district setting up. Teams and AI task
25:18
force so that there can be some something driven
25:21
from the the top down on how a district is going
25:25
to approach AI. Can you talk a little bit about
25:28
what you've seen in terms of? How some AI task
25:33
force have been done at both like the maybe the
25:36
individual district level, but then also you
25:39
you work with state departments too on how that
25:43
might look and. If there is anything, how do
25:48
those conversations usually go or what are you
25:51
seeing that's a common thread among like what
25:54
comes from the state versus what districts are
25:56
doing? Cause we've seen so many states and it's
26:00
gotten better where they've developed their state
26:02
guidelines. But we have, even with state guidelines,
26:07
districts are still kind of on their own and
26:10
choosing what they want to do, right? And so
26:14
what are your thoughts as far as that goes with
26:16
what you've seen? Yeah, a few patterns, whether
26:21
we're talking districts or we're talking state
26:23
level. When launching a lot of this work, one
26:28
of the first things that tends to happen is people
26:35
trying to figure out like who is on the task
26:36
force and what do we really want this to look
26:39
like? Ways in which the task force itself is
26:45
selected matters, right? We all know that we
26:47
want diverse representation. We want to make
26:50
sure that we have people who are sitting in a
26:54
variety of roles from across a district. And
26:56
so many districts do seek to include teachers,
27:02
administrators, counselors, special education
27:05
teachers, right? Like hitting all of those different
27:08
buckets. and also hitting who are our folks who
27:12
are the early adopters who are all in on this
27:15
and are moving forward with or without any kind
27:18
of guidance from the district or the state and
27:22
who are the folks who are saying I don't want
27:24
anything to do with this. I think that we should
27:27
not be bringing it into our classrooms. I am
27:30
really concerned about these six things because
27:33
we need those different voices in the room. Because
27:37
what we sometimes see is folks who are super
27:40
excited about this are doing incredible things
27:43
and then realize, oh, wait, I need to go back
27:47
and reconsider privacy and security implications.
27:51
And then you have the person who is saying, if
27:54
you use AI or I think you use AI, you're going
27:57
to fail my class and they're teaching next to
28:00
the person who's going all in and they teach
28:02
the same class, right? And so bringing those
28:05
people together on the task force is important
28:10
because you need all of those perspectives in
28:13
order to really make the best possible decisions
28:17
we can make. So that's one piece. Another is
28:20
spending time with the task force building capacity.
28:25
We write a lot of policies and a lot of guidelines
28:28
in the education space. We're usually writing
28:31
about things we know about. Educators were not
28:36
heavily immersed in AI conversations until generative
28:40
AI came on the scene. And they're doing lots
28:45
and lots of other things. And so they don't have
28:47
time to do these deep dives into what we're talking
28:51
about when we're talking about these components
28:53
of AI. And so spending. a good amount of time.
28:58
And when I say a good amount of time, I'm talking
28:59
days, digging into the, what do we need to know
29:03
about AI? What is out there from other districts
29:07
and states and global organizations that folks
29:12
have been digging into so that I know and understand
29:16
and can get to a place where I can identify the
29:19
opportunities and the risks. so that then we
29:22
can create guidance that addresses those things.
29:25
If we really want to get at the opportunities,
29:28
we have to know and understand the risks so we
29:30
can create guidance around those. And then these
29:33
teams obviously are meeting multiple times and
29:36
building off of that learning to create that
29:39
guidance. It also I think is important and has
29:44
been pretty consistent that we're bringing in
29:46
student and parent voices into the conversation.
29:49
by either making sure they're on the task force
29:52
or doing a lot of really intentional focus groups
29:56
to say, what are your hopes when we think about
30:00
the use of AI? What are your fears when you think
30:03
about AI? What do you want our schools to focus
30:06
on when we're talking about AI and bringing that
30:10
feedback into the task force conversations? And
30:14
then finally, making sure that the deliverables
30:17
and the outputs from those task forces are things
30:21
people can use, right? Like how can I use this
30:25
in the work that I am doing and help me make
30:29
really good decisions about what's happening
30:31
within my classrooms? And then the final piece
30:35
I will say around this is that The knowledge
30:37
can't just live within the task force. So like
30:40
you've built these incredible things and now
30:42
you've got all of these resources. How do we
30:44
make sure that everyone within the community,
30:47
our students, our teachers, and our families
30:49
can then take those and really operationalize
30:53
it in ways that are meaningful. Yeah. And so
30:56
much of what you're saying resonates with me
30:58
a lot in our, like our own state in Minnesota,
31:00
you know, we've worked with. um a few schools
31:03
on their AI guidelines and it is super important
31:07
to have so many different voices on there and
31:10
uh one district that I worked in in particular
31:12
um miniota schools they are have been really
31:16
great because what they did at the very beginning
31:18
was include some of their board members who are
31:20
also parents in the community right and that's
31:22
like those voices are huge to be able to communicate
31:26
what is going on and what's happening with the
31:28
AI task force and what kind of decisions are
31:30
being made. And two of the other things that
31:32
you mentioned that are really important too is
31:37
the, well, the voices and the planning. And I
31:40
think, so by way of our, how we've constructed
31:43
our AI guidance to help districts is by way of
31:46
the MDE guiding principles for Minnesota, which
31:49
there's five. And the second one is center people,
31:52
which is great because it's like, how are you
31:54
going to ensure that everybody in your district
31:57
has had an opportunity to voice what their concerns
32:01
are, what they want to do with AI, how it's impacting
32:04
them, all those different things are huge. And
32:06
then the other piece, the continuous improvement
32:10
or continuous professional development, right?
32:14
And especially with AI, because it changes so
32:17
rapidly. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more
32:20
on having like a sustainable professional development
32:24
plan where you're continuing to learn because
32:26
like you said, it's super hard. They only have
32:30
so much time, right? And many times what we experience
32:35
is like we'll go do an AI training at a school
32:37
and they'll get two hours of that and then it's
32:40
on to the next thing, right? And that isn't really
32:44
Uh, helpful for this type of thing, uh, that
32:47
we have going on with AI. Um, but I get it. Cause
32:50
they're, they're just trying to work with what
32:53
they have. Right. Um, Oh, no, go ahead. I was
33:00
just going to say, I don't think we're in this
33:01
place yet, but I'm hoping that we get there where
33:05
just like all of the other professional learning
33:08
that we've talked about, it can't be technology
33:11
training lives over here. And everything else
33:14
lives over here, right? If I'm focusing on the
33:16
science of reading, if I'm focusing on social
33:19
and emotional learning, if I'm focusing on a
33:23
new math curriculum resource, I'm hoping we get
33:28
to a place where we say, okay, if these are our
33:30
goals and this is what we're really working toward,
33:33
how might AI support us in that or not? And then
33:36
we bring that into the professional learning
33:38
because right now the AI conversation is happening
33:41
over here. And all of the other conversations
33:44
are happening over here. And if we don't merge
33:46
those conversations at some point, it feels like
33:50
it's a separate thing I have to deal with. And
33:53
it also feels like one more thing. And we know
33:55
that we don't have time for one more thing. We
33:58
really have to be focusing on the, what are we
34:01
going to be doing differently? Not, what are
34:03
we going to be doing more of? Because no one
34:06
has time for more. We've got to really shift
34:08
into the. what is going to be different as we
34:11
move forward, as opposed to adding another layer
34:15
on when there isn't enough time to do all of
34:18
the other layers we already have. To bounce off
34:23
a couple of things here that you mentioned, you
34:25
talked a little bit about the hopes and the fears,
34:27
which reminded me of... an article that Anthropic
34:33
came out with recently that described their 81
34:36
,000 interviews that they did with Claude users.
34:40
And they had a whole bunch of different quotes.
34:43
And one of them that stuck out with me was we
34:45
found a unicorn and we're using it to plow a
34:49
field. And like, are we wasting its potential,
34:53
you know, things to have it? do those routine
34:57
mundane type of things when we could be using
34:59
it to try to attack different problems. what
35:04
we were talking about with building the task
35:07
force or building the group that's going to bring
35:09
together, that's going to have all these different
35:12
voices at the table. And if all of those things
35:14
come together and we decide we don't want to
35:17
use AI as just a plow, can it help solve some
35:20
of these historic problems that we've kind of
35:23
seen over the years in schools, whether it be
35:25
student absenteeism, teacher burnout, you know,
35:30
or, you know, lower achievement scores, even
35:34
that were occurring before COVID happened and
35:37
we haven't rebound enough from that. Is AI in
35:43
the hands of these effective users going to help
35:45
us with some of these issues that schools have
35:48
traditionally faced? I think as we approach the
35:54
how does AI do more than just what we've seen
35:58
over the last couple of years? We have to be
36:01
really clear on what are the use cases and what
36:05
are the problems we're trying to solve. Because
36:08
if we can very clearly articulate that, right?
36:11
One of the examples you gave was chronic absenteeism.
36:14
Well, what are the underlying causes of chronic
36:16
absenteeism? And if we know what those underlying
36:19
causes are, then we can start talking about is
36:22
there a way for AI to help address one of those
36:26
underlying causes, right? And so we're starting
36:30
to see districts do things, especially with generative
36:34
AI and agentic AI. in building tools that can
36:38
help with some of the underlying causes that
36:43
or maybe potentially some of the root causes
36:45
of some of those broader problems that you just
36:48
laid out or challenges that we've had in the
36:51
education space. And so districts doing everything
36:55
from we've talked a lot about career exploration
36:59
and what that looks like for students in middle
37:02
and high school and even younger and you know,
37:05
a district is using an AI agent to look at the
37:09
courses students are engaging with, the things
37:12
that they are most interested in, and then making
37:15
recommendations for high school courses. And
37:19
some of the career paths they might be interested
37:22
in, which goes beyond the typical survey that
37:24
students would take, and also allows the counselors
37:27
to have more data on what that might look like
37:31
for a particular student. And so There are things
37:34
like that. I'm trying to think we're working
37:37
with several districts on some of the other pieces
37:41
around things like middle school students who
37:46
need support from a counselor. If I'm a middle
37:49
school student and I want to go see the counselor,
37:51
I might ask permission to leave whatever class
37:54
I'm in, go down and if the counselor is available.
37:58
Great. If not, I might sit there for a while
38:01
and wait for the counselor to be available. Well,
38:03
a district create using a I created an app that
38:08
students could go in and. share that they needed
38:12
to see the counselor that day would put in some
38:15
information and then it would essentially triage
38:18
like hey make sure you this could stay and it
38:20
would alert the counselor so that the counselor
38:22
knew because a lot of times the counselor doesn't
38:24
know because they're doing a lot of other things
38:26
and so by doing that if the student is able to
38:30
see the counselor when they need to it may impact
38:34
any number of those larger challenges that you
38:37
just talked about. And so you think it's breaking
38:39
it down into like, what are the root causes?
38:42
Can we use an AI tool to help us with some of
38:45
those things? Whether they be teaching and learning,
38:47
whether they be organizational or something else.
38:51
And I think we're just getting to that point.
38:53
Like people are really just starting to think
38:55
about building things on their own, because with
38:58
vibe coding and lots of the other options that
39:01
are out there, I don't need to necessarily know
39:04
how to code to build the kinds of things I want
39:06
to build. Some of it comes down to like a design
39:09
thinking challenge applied to those specific
39:13
issues, right? We've done that with students.
39:17
So this is the third year of the ISTE and ASCD
39:21
AI innovator studio in challenge. And so ISTE,
39:26
Lenovo, Microsoft and Intel have all partnered
39:28
to ask students to use AI tools to solve a problem
39:34
of practice within their community. We're just
39:37
now in the judging for this year's submissions
39:39
because they were due in March. But over the
39:41
last couple of years, when you see the things
39:44
that kits have created, you know, last year,
39:47
one of the teams created a glove that you can
39:51
use if you use ASL as your primary language.
39:55
And I use the glove and it translates and then
39:59
an audio will come out of an app and tell you
40:02
what I'm saying using ASL. or a student two years
40:06
ago who is a gamer had been catfished in a game,
40:10
was asked to send photos to the catfisher. She
40:14
alerted her parents, but she realized not everyone
40:18
is necessarily going to alert their parents.
40:20
So she used AI to highlight in gaming software,
40:28
if you're having a conversation and it aligns
40:30
with the patterns of a catfisher, it will alert
40:33
you. And so now she can use that with other kids.
40:37
I mean, it's incredible. And so the same kinds
40:41
of things that our kids are doing with this challenge,
40:44
we can be doing in the education space, right?
40:47
Like what are some of the challenges that we're
40:49
seeing? I will say one of the things that is
40:52
made me most hopeful with a lot of the AI and
40:56
education conversations is around accessibility
40:59
and inclusivity. the tools that we have at our
41:03
fingertips to make content and communication
41:08
so much more accessible than we've ever had before
41:12
is because of AI. And so whether I'm using a
41:17
tool like VoiceIT that can take non -standard
41:20
speech and for lack of a better term, translate
41:24
that into standard speech or a tool like Cephal
41:27
Bowl where I can control different apps on my
41:30
computer by nodding my head is incredible. And
41:36
so your question was about the unicorn, right?
41:41
And I think it is about solving those very particular
41:47
challenges and being really clear on what they
41:49
are. And then yes, using AI to figure out how
41:53
we do those things that weren't possible before.
41:56
And that's awesome. And you talked a little bit,
41:58
you got into some of the things that Lenovo is
42:02
doing, like the projects. What else is Lenovo
42:07
doing and what are you working on specifically
42:10
that has you genuinely excited for the next year?
42:14
Couple years. What do you have going on? Yeah
42:18
one of the big areas of focus for us right now
42:21
is around hybrid AI and helping think through
42:26
Where we want to have personalized or personal
42:30
AI? where we have enterprise AI and where we
42:34
have public AI and What I mean by that is We
42:40
are collecting more data that we have ever collected
42:44
because we are trading these AI tools, they're
42:47
collecting more data than other tools have previously,
42:49
et cetera. And as we introduce many of these
42:54
tools into our classrooms, in particular, we
42:57
have to focus on privacy and security. And so
43:00
if I'm going to use a tool, like I was just talking
43:02
about, like VoiceIt or Cephalable, or there are
43:06
tools being created where they're teacher coaching
43:09
tools, and they might be recording what's happening
43:12
in a classroom and then giving a teacher feedback
43:14
on that. where that data goes matters. And so
43:20
if I am doing voice recordings and video recordings
43:23
and other things, I might want that to live on
43:26
my device. So having an AI PC that can run all
43:30
of those apps and that houses that data on my
43:34
device matters. If I have things like I'm gonna
43:39
pull data from a student information system,
43:42
or I'm going to pull data from an assessment
43:47
tool that we're using. I want to use an enterprise
43:50
AI tool so that it stays within our digital ecosystem,
43:56
right? Like if I'm using, if I'm a Google district
43:59
and I'm using Gemini as part of workspace. anything
44:02
I'm doing for work I should be doing logged in
44:05
to Gemini or Copilot if that's one of my ecosystems
44:09
versus public AI where maybe I'm analyzing all
44:13
of our board docs, those are already publicly
44:15
available. I can do that in a public AI tool
44:18
and it's fine because that data is already out
44:21
there. So helping people really think through
44:24
the where the data lives. is something that we're
44:28
really focusing on. And I think is incredibly
44:31
important because we're introducing a lot of
44:35
new resources into our classrooms and need to
44:38
be mindful of that. So that's one piece that
44:40
I think is really going to support educators
44:44
in their work. And we're working with several
44:46
districts now who want to build out their own
44:48
specialized language models to help them do that
44:52
in an enterprise AI. where it's living in their
44:56
data center so that they're not sending data
44:58
to the cloud that really needs to stay in -house.
45:02
So I'm excited to see where those projects go.
45:04
We should talk again in like six months and I
45:06
can give you some very concrete examples as we're
45:10
working through those. But I think that's a really
45:12
exciting opportunity. But you were asking what
45:17
Lenovo is doing. The other thing that I would
45:20
encourage and that I... have seen a lot of positive
45:24
impact from is districts reaching out to their
45:28
industry partners. We do that all the time as
45:30
educators, but reaching out and asking how they
45:35
are using AI within their industry. Because right
45:41
now there is a lot of conflation of AI equals
45:45
chat bot in my classroom. And when you talk to
45:49
folks in industry and you hear, here is how a
45:54
pharmaceutical company is using AI in drug development.
45:58
Here is how an aviation company is using AI when
46:05
we're all flying, right, to get to different
46:08
places. Here is how attorneys are using AI in
46:11
their work. It shifts. A, the way you think and
46:16
define AI, as we kind of talked about before,
46:19
but it also gets into the, what does this mean
46:23
for my biology curriculum and my chemistry curriculum?
46:26
What does it mean for my ELA curriculum if I
46:29
am preparing my kids for a world of work? And
46:32
we all have our CTE advisory committees, like
46:34
start there and ask those folks, who's your AI
46:37
person in your industry? to start having those
46:40
conversations because the implications from a
46:43
curriculum side I think are pretty significant
46:46
and we need to know and understand what this
46:48
looks like more broadly than in the education
46:51
space. Well thank you so much Tara for for sharing
46:55
your time with us here today. We've really enjoyed
46:57
the conversation that we're that we were able
46:59
to have with you but we like to kind of wrap
47:02
things up with a little bit of a lightning round
47:03
and so we've got some questions here you know
47:06
feel free to expound as much as you think you
47:10
need to to describe what you're thinking, or
47:12
if it's just a one word answer, that's entirely
47:14
fine too. And so I'll kick off here with the
47:17
first one. You know, I know you travel around
47:20
a lot. How many conferences do you get to present
47:22
at in a year, do you think? In a year? I have
47:26
two this week. How many weeks do we work over
47:30
the course of a year? So we're around there.
47:36
A lot. How's a lot? That's a great answer. Next
47:43
one is what's something about your doctoral research
47:45
that still shapes how you think today? A lot
47:50
of the work that we focused on around opportunity
47:54
gaps and really helping to ensure that all students
47:58
are successful is something that I keep going
48:00
back to. You mentioned earlier about how frequently
48:04
AI just keeps evolving and changing. What was
48:07
something that maybe you had it wrong about AI
48:09
that, you know, in the last year or two has really
48:12
kind of changed and you're you're willing to
48:14
admit you were wrong. So I maybe two summers
48:21
ago was working with a group in New York and
48:26
we had three days of training around AI. for
48:32
a team of teachers who really wanted to dig in
48:34
and three days back -to -back was incredible
48:37
and a really wonderful opportunity. And I was
48:41
talking with Leslie Accardo, so shout out Leslie,
48:44
if you're hearing this. And we were having lunch
48:47
and she said, how are things? And I said, Leslie,
48:50
I do not wanna talk about AI anymore. And this
48:54
was two years ago and now, right? And I'm on
48:56
a podcast, still talking about it. two conferences
48:59
a week, still presenting on it, right? Like it
49:01
is still part of the conversation. And I said,
49:04
I really want to get back to these conversations
49:07
around competency -based learning and flexible
49:09
and adaptable environments and the things I've
49:12
spent my career on. And she said, Tara, we all
49:15
have to take a detour and we have to know and
49:19
understand. It's what we've talked about already
49:21
on this call. We have to know and understand.
49:25
AI well enough to then decide how does that impact
49:29
the kinds of things we want to do in education?
49:33
And so I share that from the what maybe did we
49:37
get wrong about or I get wrong about AI in education
49:41
was that I was focusing the conversation on.
49:45
What do we mean when we talk? How do we define
49:48
AI? What is it? Talking about the opportunities
49:51
and risks and then. not focusing enough on the,
49:55
what does the pedagogy piece look like? So after
49:58
that conversation with Leslie, I was like, I
50:00
can do both. That's really what this should be
50:02
about, right? And it's how we started this conversation.
50:05
And so I don't know that it's the, what we got
50:08
wrong about AI, but the hope that we move away
50:12
from the efficiency conversation. It's the article
50:14
that you referenced at the beginning too, that
50:16
this is really a catalyst for something much
50:19
bigger that I'm hoping we move toward. So chat
50:25
GPT Claude or Gemini can only choose one We love
50:30
co -pilot so for work co -pilot because we are
50:35
Microsoft ecosystem also Claude Okay oceans or
50:41
mountains Mountains I do love the ocean the mountains.
50:47
Okay. That's it. That one gets chosen a lot a
50:49
lot more than I than I thought small conference
50:52
or large This is a total cop -out, but both for
50:57
very different reasons. You're breaking the rules,
51:02
Tara. Just so you know. Sometimes we have to
51:07
do that. Yeah, we'll allow it. That's fine. Coffee
51:10
or tea? Neither. I don't drink either one. Something
51:15
else? Water. It's very boring. Like sparkling
51:19
water. Does that add some? That's totally fine,
51:22
yeah. Yeah. Healthy option. It's good. Okay.
51:27
This is a tough one. Fix student engagement or
51:30
fix teacher burnout? I think teacher burnout
51:38
will lead to addressing student engagement. So
51:43
teacher burnout first that will lead to student
51:46
engagement. Okay. And then what has to come first?
51:52
Build the AI policy or guidelines. Let's say,
51:56
uh, or train the teachers. What has to come first?
52:01
Train the teachers so that they can help develop
52:04
the guidelines. Awesome. All right. Well, we
52:09
really appreciate your time and we're happy to
52:12
have you join us for this episode. And, um, is
52:15
there anything that you want to plug that you
52:16
have upcoming, um, socials to follow you at anything
52:20
like that, that you want to. Mentioned So if
52:24
you haven't already I would check out the AI
52:26
innovator studio and challenge the Teams as I
52:30
said, we're in judging now the three teams that
52:33
are selected From this project will actually
52:36
be presenting at ISTE live with our Lenovo team
52:41
and Others and so if you haven't had an opportunity
52:45
to check that out do because the website also
52:49
includes 15 AI literacy lessons that can be used
52:53
across content areas for students. And they're
52:58
very comprehensive so that if folks are feeling
53:00
a little bit uneasy about how to bring AI into
53:03
their classrooms, it is super comprehensive and
53:07
provides a lot of different considerations. And
53:10
then there are videos on that site of all of
53:13
the past. winners from the challenge. And so
53:18
if teachers are looking for ideas of the ways
53:20
kids are engaging with AI, there are some great
53:23
resources there. So I would definitely check
53:25
that out. Awesome. And we'll be sure to put that
53:28
in the show description notes and so people can
53:31
access that. So just wanted to thank you again
53:34
for joining us and hopefully we'll see you soon
53:37
at a conference here. I am sure we will read
53:40
into each other and it was great to talk with
53:42
you both today. Thanks, Tara. Thanks, Tara. Thanks
53:48
for listening to Integrate This. Want to take
53:50
your learning further? Head over to our YouTube
53:53
channel for quick tutorials, deep dives, and
53:56
more edtech tips you can use right away. Don't
53:59
forget to subscribe and catch new podcast episodes
54:02
every Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever
54:06
you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep
54:10
exploring, keep innovating, and keep integrating
54:13
this.