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An Unlikely Affair: The Parts We Can't Erase · Untraditionally Lala

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So Lala and I met like maybe, I don't know, God,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: 10 years ago.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Oh my God.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I don't even think I've actually said the number. I
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: was married for eight years and she was the mistress.
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  Speaker 3: I was the wife. I did not know this.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I would remember that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I would definitely remember that. And then eventually she has a,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: she has a daughter, Ocean, who's five with my ex-husband.
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  Speaker 1: And then I have two kids. And so we're one
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  Speaker 1: happy blended family.
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  Speaker 5: Family my second baby um i conceived via sperm donor
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  Speaker 5: so she's just mine wow and she looks oddly like
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  Speaker 5: amber which is great i love it.
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  Speaker 3: She's my child full circle moment yeah totally solidify the
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: extended family.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: So that's the background of an unlikely affair hi.
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: Amber hi lola welcome to an unlikely affair Dr.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: Hillary Goldshear.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Welcome to An Unlikely Affair.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you guys for having me.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: We're so excited to have you. So excited.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: So I did a lot of therapy starting like after
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: I had my first baby. I remember my OBGYN, Dr.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Katz said, you know, I was like, I'm not feeling great.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Like he's like, have you ever done therapy?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no. He's like, okay, call this woman. Was
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  Speaker 2: this postpartum?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. I had a little postpartum. And so I did
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  Speaker 1: therapy for like 10 years. And then finally, like after
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  Speaker 1: my divorce, I was like, no more therapy. I cannot
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  Speaker 1: do therapy anymore. It was just became like, I felt
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: like therapy didn't save my marriage. And I think that
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: that's a lot of probably a misconception that a lot
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: of people have. Like I need a therapist to fix
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: this problem. And I would love for you to talk
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: a little bit about like the purpose of therapy, how
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: you define therapy for people.
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: But it's such a good question as it relates to
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: couples work, because one of my core conceptualizations as a
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  Speaker 3: couples therapist is the notion that my goal is not
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  Speaker 3: necessarily to keep a family together, sadly, painfully worthy of
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: much grief. But my goal is to help the family
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  Speaker 3: system assess whether or not it's emotionally safe to stay
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: together and guide them. one way or the other. Of course,
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  Speaker 3: it is not my opinion. It is my assessment after
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  Speaker 3: working together with a family and understanding all the dynamics.
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  Speaker 3: And my goal is to hopefully guide the family system
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  Speaker 3: to decide themselves and either keep them together with peace, love,
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  Speaker 3: and health, or help them separate with peace, love, and health.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: And grief and support and guidance. And so I think
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  Speaker 3: it is a misperception that therapy is somehow like failing
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  Speaker 3: if it doesn't keep you together. But the best couples
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  Speaker 3: therapist helps a family come apart.
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  Speaker 5: Wow.
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  Speaker 1: See, I wish someone would have explained that to me
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  Speaker 1: in my 20s and who knew if I would have
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  Speaker 1: like understand it differently. But having that little disclosure before
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  Speaker 1: you even enter into therapy and say, listen, This is
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  Speaker 1: the purpose because I feel like a lot of times
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  Speaker 1: you just walk in and they're like, tell me what's
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  Speaker 1: going on. Tell me a little bit about yourself.
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  Speaker 3: And then they dive in.
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  Speaker 1: But having a full understanding of the purpose of sitting
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  Speaker 1: down and paying someone because let's be honest, therapy is
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  Speaker 1: fucking expensive, especially in Los Angeles and all these bigger cities.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of insurance companies.
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  Speaker 1: Don't pay for it or a lot of therapists don't
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: accept insurance because it's a lot of money fighting getting
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: the money and then you get a super bill it's
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  Speaker 1: the whole thing so I feel like there has to
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  Speaker 1: be a very it has to be purposeful work.
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  Speaker 3: When you go into therapy having a paradigm helps ground
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  Speaker 3: everyone and having a version of an objective I mean
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  Speaker 3: it's a fine line we walk as therapists we want
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  Speaker 3: the space to be open and free and allow for
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  Speaker 3: safe feelings to be expressed but it is okay to
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  Speaker 3: want to identify an objective and have ideas about what
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  Speaker 3: you want to get out of it and talk about
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  Speaker 3: it and self-advocate even to say like, I'm confused about
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  Speaker 3: what we're doing here or what our goal is or
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  Speaker 3: where we're headed, or it feels like we keep talking
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  Speaker 3: about the same things. All of those things are clinical
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  Speaker 3: material for the therapist to work with, but also part
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  Speaker 3: of self-advocacy.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: It, it, Just because you're in therapy doesn't mean that
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  Speaker 3: it's working perfectly and is the right fit. It is
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  Speaker 3: okay to co-create the right environment for yourself.
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  Speaker 1: You want a therapist to really push you and challenge
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  Speaker 1: the way you're thinking. So you wouldn't necessarily want that. Well,
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  Speaker 1: maybe you would on a date, but I want someone
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  Speaker 1: to kind of kick my ass in therapy. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: coming here to get a nod and saying, yes, Amber,
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  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.
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  Speaker 3: That's the way you feel.
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  Speaker 1: And yes, your feelings are validated. It's like, okay, well,
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  Speaker 1: let's put yourself in the other person's... other person's position,
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  Speaker 1: or kind of look at the situation without the emotions
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  Speaker 1: of it too.
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  Speaker 3: If that's your wish is to have someone, a therapist
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  Speaker 3: that's active, ask about that. How active are you? How
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  Speaker 3: much do you get into solution-focused discussions?
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  Speaker 1: I also want a therapist to say, are you exercising?
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  Speaker 1: Are you taking care of yourself?
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  Speaker 2: Are you seeing your girlfriends?
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  Speaker 5: I want.
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  Speaker 1: Full spectrum of a lifestyle shift if I'm struggling with
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  Speaker 1: one area because it's not, I mean, I'm sober and
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  Speaker 1: I want someone to say, okay, well, are you working
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  Speaker 1: your program? Are you talking to your sponsor? Are you
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  Speaker 1: going to the gym? Are you going, are you meditating?
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  Speaker 1: Like that, I think that approach also for me is
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  Speaker 1: way more attractive.
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  Speaker 2: Here's the thing.
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  Speaker 5: When, when you think about therapy, your therapist is not
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  Speaker 5: emotionally charged, right? Like it's so easy to not saying you.
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  Speaker 2: Guys are giving advice.
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  Speaker 5: You, you know, have a background in medicine, extremely brilliant,
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  Speaker 5: but if you, those people that say, you know, how
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  Speaker 5: are you supposed to give me good advice? If like,
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  Speaker 5: I'm here for my marriage, but you're divorced going through this, that,
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  Speaker 5: and the other, it's like life still happens. And I
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  Speaker 5: think that's the stigma behind therapy is therapists are looked
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  Speaker 5: at as these people who have to have it all together.
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  Speaker 5: And they're sitting down with you to dig into just
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  Speaker 5: your childhood.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that scares people. It scares me, you know?
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  Speaker 5: Cause I'm like, I don't, I don't know that, Something
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  Speaker 5: that happened to me when I was five being bullied
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  Speaker 5: in the schoolyard. I just don't know how that carries
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  Speaker 5: into my life now. And I think a lot of
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  Speaker 5: people think that way.
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  Speaker 1: You know?
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  Speaker 2: I love you. No, but I.
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  Speaker 1: You really don't think that that affected you?
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  Speaker 2: I think it affected me. I think there's nothing I
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  Speaker 2: can do about it and we got to move on. Well, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: there's also nothing I can do. Right, right, right.
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  Speaker 1: But you just have the... Not that I'm a therapist,
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  Speaker 1: but I'm saying there's just like an awareness.
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  Speaker 4: Right?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: What do you mean?
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  Speaker 4: Just, like, an.
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  Speaker 1: Awareness of, like, okay, this happened to me when I
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  Speaker 1: was in elementary school, whatever, I got pushed down or
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  Speaker 1: thrown into the fucking trash, whatever it is.
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  Speaker 2: That shapes you.
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  Speaker 1: Like, you're a young child. Like, can you imagine, like,
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  Speaker 1: something like that happening to Ocean? And... And Ocean's saying, oh,
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  Speaker 1: it didn't bother me. I don't think you as a
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  Speaker 1: mother would say, like, no, honey. Like, I believe that
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  Speaker 1: you would say, let's talk about it.
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  Speaker 5: I'm not saying that that doesn't shape who someone is.
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  Speaker 2: I'm saying that people who feel....
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  Speaker 5: A little bit skeptical of therapy from what I have
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  Speaker 5: gathered is that they wonder, why would I sit in
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  Speaker 5: a room if someone wants to go all the way
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  Speaker 5: back to my childhood when I need coping mechanisms for
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  Speaker 5: the now?
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  Speaker 2: Does that, am I making sense?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
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  Speaker 5: You know, so like how, how would you, how would
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  Speaker 5: you explain to somebody, we won't even go into like
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  Speaker 5: my trauma with this one specific therapist where I have
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  Speaker 5: not seen a therapist since because I have tremendous trust.
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  Speaker 2: Issues with everybody on the planet. But like, how do
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  Speaker 2: you soften someone up to the idea of therapy?
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  Speaker 3: Such good questions. And I think you're right that many
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  Speaker 3: people have the perception that therapy is digging up old
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  Speaker 3: childhood trauma, which I'm not here to say it doesn't
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  Speaker 3: include that, which we'll talk about in a moment. But
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  Speaker 3: the idea of like, I don't want to do that.
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  Speaker 3: That feels overwhelming and intimidating and makes me want to
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  Speaker 3: shut down. And furthermore, is that really going to help
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  Speaker 3: me today? And those are good questions. They're right questions.
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  Speaker 3: It's what intersects with what I was talking about earlier.
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  Speaker 3: From my perspective, my theoretical orientation, my approach seeks to
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  Speaker 3: pair those things together. I don't think you can do
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  Speaker 3: one without the other, without having... sustained results. You can
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  Speaker 3: get decent results in my view, looking at kind of
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  Speaker 3: day-to-day what's happening. What happens in early childhood impacts our mapping,
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  Speaker 3: our early mapping of how we view ourselves and how
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  Speaker 3: we move through the world. And so if we don't
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  Speaker 3: unpack that and first create sacred space for the pain
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  Speaker 3: of that, and then come to understand how it impacts
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  Speaker 3: how we view ourselves and how we move through the
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  Speaker 3: world and We can't really ever get under the hood
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  Speaker 3: enough to shift the early mapping to something more expansive
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  Speaker 3: so that we can be consciously and unconsciously aware of
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  Speaker 3: how things affect us and make different choices in the moment. Right.
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  Speaker 1: I always use the expression like I need to deprogram
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  Speaker 1: myself in this area because the programming is a little
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  Speaker 1: off or a little crooked. And then I have to
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  Speaker 1: reprogram myself to what the right solution is or the
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  Speaker 1: right way to move through the world.
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  Speaker 3: It's exactly what I'm talking about, right? I mean, it's
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  Speaker 3: the intersection of both of those things. But I really
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  Speaker 3: like your question about like, how do you soften someone up?
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  Speaker 3: Because I think there are many people who are like,
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  Speaker 3: I'm not doing that.
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  Speaker 2: And I also think it's a generational thing. A hundred percent. Like,
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  Speaker 2: I feel like my mom is like, why?
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  Speaker 5: And then I'll talk to my friends and my friends
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  Speaker 5: will be like, oh my God, my mom is like
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  Speaker 5: questioning me on why I'm going to therapy.
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  Speaker 2: I want to make it very, very clear.
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  Speaker 5: I have such a deep appreciation for for therapists and
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  Speaker 5: again it it it goes back to this one specific
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  Speaker 5: incident where I I now have to find someone I
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  Speaker 5: really really trust you know because even Amber has said
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  Speaker 5: like we need therapy when.
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  Speaker 2: She says we she means me which I'm.
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  Speaker 1: No I need therapy too I'm not just put you
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  Speaker 1: in that bucket but I.
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  Speaker 5: I think a generational thing as well where it's like
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  Speaker 5: A lot of people who are my mom's age and
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  Speaker 5: maybe a bit older, it's like, we don't talk about
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  Speaker 5: our feelings.
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  Speaker 2: That shit goes under the rug. Like everything's fine.
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  Speaker 3: You know? Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: I think they're the ones that need the most therapy.
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  Speaker 3: That was the generational edict is that you don't talk
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  Speaker 3: about family business or tricky emotions. And in fact, it's
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: not just neutral that if you did, that was a
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  Speaker 3: sign of weakness or conflict or trouble that was embarrassing
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  Speaker 3: or shameful. And so- it is not just neutral. It's
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  Speaker 3: the opposite that you shouldn't and that you should have
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  Speaker 3: a version of shame if you do. And so, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: that is a tough dynamic and sort of notion to break,
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  Speaker 3: but I have two thoughts. I mean, one, when it's
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  Speaker 3: kind of a generational issue, my discussion is a recommendation
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  Speaker 3: of attempting to avail oneself of like the experience. Like
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  Speaker 3: you can go to therapy and you don't have to,
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  Speaker 3: you can commit to 50 minutes and that's it.
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  Speaker 5: Right.
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  Speaker 3: You don't have to, you don't have to draw a contract.
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  Speaker 3: You don't like it. You don't have to return. Right.
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  Speaker 1: So I had my brain scanned. Dr. Amon's been my
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  Speaker 1: psychiatrist for many years now. But one of the things
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: that he said in my brain scan is like, you
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: have like the, I think he calls it the ring
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  Speaker 1: of fire, but PTSD from just not even trauma in
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  Speaker 1: my early childhood, more in my twenties, the same as
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  Speaker 1: a veteran would coming back from war. And I, I truly,
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  Speaker 1: and we were having this conversation on the way home. I,
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  Speaker 1: there's some things that happen to you in life that
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  Speaker 1: I just don't, think you could ever truly get over,
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  Speaker 1: get over or heal from. So then it becomes like
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: just managing the day to day.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like grief, right?
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: They say like, okay, you can never just get over
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: a person that passes away. It's like the, you have
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  Speaker 1: to go through the grieving process.
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  Speaker 3: And I.
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  Speaker 1: Just want to, I'm so curious because I'm so conflicted
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  Speaker 1: of like, I feel at times. So like, I thought
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  Speaker 1: I had enough therapy and talked about it over and over.
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  Speaker 1: And like, gotten over certain situations that happened. But then
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: this morning I'm like, no, I don't think that shit's
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  Speaker 1: ever going to go away. I think it's so ingrained
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  Speaker 1: in my DNA. It's changed me at a cellular level
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  Speaker 1: that I'm, I will never be the same person.
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  Speaker 2: It is.
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  Speaker 3: I'm glad we're talking about this because I think there's
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  Speaker 3: a inherent setup that you're either better or not. And
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  Speaker 3: then you feel like pass, fail, good, bad. And what
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  Speaker 3: you're saying is correct. When we go through trauma and
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  Speaker 3: It does change our system and how our internal mapping
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: occurs and how we move through the world. But it's
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  Speaker 3: not about that we can't get better as we relate
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: to the trauma. It's about how we interact with it.
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  Speaker 3: And so the duration and intensity of the pain associated
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  Speaker 3: with it can greatly shift. I see you have emotion
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  Speaker 3: coming up.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know why. I'm so sorry.
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  Speaker 5: No.
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  Speaker 3: It's so crazy. What's coming up?
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  Speaker 4: I'd like to think that like, oh god I'd like
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  Speaker 4: to think that like I completely can just like erase
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  Speaker 4: some of the things that I've gone through in my
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: life but now it's just like it's actually grieving that
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  Speaker 4: like I'm gonna it's like my sobriety it's like a
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  Speaker 4: daily practice right and it's like I want to be
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: over and be able to move on and like enter
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: relationships and marriage and like friendships and partnerships but like
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  Speaker 4: I just think as I've gotten older and I've been like,
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  Speaker 4: you know.
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  Speaker 2: I've had experience of life.
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  Speaker 3: Like I.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Don't want to say it hasn't fucked me up, but
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  Speaker 1: it's really changed me. And I actually miss the old
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: version of myself. That's just kind of naive moving through
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  Speaker 1: the world. You know what I mean?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Like I know too much now.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I know too much.
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  Speaker 1: I've seen evil. I've seen darkness. I've seen joy and
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  Speaker 1: I've experienced it. But like, that's a hard look at
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  Speaker 1: me i'm a fucking mess i think i.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Need therapy this is.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: My word for what we're talking about right now is
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: integration it is the notion of integration is one of
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: the greatest psychological gifts that i can offer which is
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: that the idea that who you were before all this
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: trauma that naive joyful person is still there and alongside
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: it is the person that's been through all the things
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: that you've been through.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a constant battle, I feel like, right?
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Like you want to give yourself to love. Yeah. And
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: then you're like, oh shit, you know, like the ball
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: can drop or like I could get hurt.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: It's like.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: One of my therapeutic goals often, not always, but often
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: is integration. How do I integrate the hurt parts of myself,
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  Speaker 3: the scared parts of myself, the parts that don't trust,
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: the parts that are scared with the parts of me
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  Speaker 3: that are naturally and dispositionally like joyful and open and loving.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I know that sounds like a lovely... Notion, right?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: But how you get there takes a lot of heavy lifting,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: emotional heavy lifting. But one of the key ways is
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: not exiling the parts of you that are hurt and scared,
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: but more deeply exploring them and inviting them in. And
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: so we can talk to those parts of us. We
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: can narrate to those parts of us instead of being
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: in the feeling of it or on the outside of it,
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: talking about it. Feeling it, observing it, rather than being
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: in the emotion or unaware of the emotion.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Right. I just keep, like, I'll say to myself, like,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: feelings aren't permanent. And, like, just stay curious.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like you've been able to work through everything?
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: Because if you really think about it, like, she and
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: I are polar opposites.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Are we, though?
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: When it comes to this.
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: So she and I have the same person who caused
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: the same trauma, right?
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: And....
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: Yes. Our situation was very nuanced. So we can say
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: like she was the wife, I was the mistress, but
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: I was very unaware that I was wearing that. If
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: that means like he had portrayed that they were like
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: going through a separation and I thought she was insane. Right.
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: I was very much in my alcoholism and I've been
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: sober for eight years next month.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: So we're both sober as well.
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: And that takes a lot of just like hard work
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: and no numbing and facing our feelings. Amber has been
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: able to go and date. And I mean, she bags
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: them like these men are, you know, like, and I,
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: and I, this is not an insult, but not, but
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: it's not an insult. She, um, welcomes relationships rather quickly.
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: Whereas I have not been on a date or invited
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: a man in on that level in.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Probably five and a half years.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we are polar opposites when it comes to that. Like,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: I still want to believe in love. And I still
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: go through the motions of it, right?
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I wasn't meaning that as a bad thing.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: No, no, no.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I fully, like, I know. We really talk about our
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: feelings a lot. We're each other's therapists. Not exactly healthy,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: but we pretend. Not productive. Maybe that's what we need.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: We need a couple therapies.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: I watch her and.
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: I'm like, I feel like maybe you need to pump
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: the brakes and, like, figure out what you want instead of, like,
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: inviting men in.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: But I know what I want. That's why I'm going
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: after it. There's a difference. I know what I want.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: But I don't think you do because we talked on
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: the way. Are you kidding me? I fucking know what
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I want. I want to find my person. But then
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: we keep attracting the same kind of guy. So if
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: we keep attracting the same kind of guy. Okay, first
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: of all, you said. I feel like I'm offending.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: No, you're not. I promise you, you're not offending me.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I would tell you. You said, Amber, you're not allowed
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: to date anyone in our industry anymore.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: And I said, okay, fine. I won't date anyone.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: In our industry because we walk into a room and
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I can't be like, oh, I slept with that guy
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and that guy. Like, that's not, that doesn't happen.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I have put myself out there where I'm dating. I
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: dated some guy in fucking Montana who ended up cheating
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: on me.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I know, but then. That was a prime example.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: I dated a guy from fucking Cincinnati.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Ohio that did flooring.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I put myself out there in different scenarios with different guys.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: It just so happens that I feel like.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: They're just not my people. Amber cheated on me. Cincinnati
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: guy was a dud. I think she and I need
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: to find the happy medium. Because she will go out
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: and Montana man cheats. And within two, three weeks, we've
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: got a new one who's in the mix. Whereas I
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: had a guy who I met one time. One time
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: in person. He came for three days. We only FaceTimed.
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: It threw me for such a tailspin that I could
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: go another five years without talking to anybody.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: That is also the extreme opposite that's what i mean okay.
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: So how do we find the balance that's what i'm
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: saying this is not me insulting you i'm saying the
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: both of.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Us we gotta work together to come to like pump
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: the brakes.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: And i need to speed it up.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: So I'm certainly not suggesting that therapy is the only
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: answer to the dilemmas that you're putting forth. But what
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: I am going to say is this, and I really
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: mean this, is that you guys are very similar. I
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: imagine this is my hypothesis based on like little information,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: but similar in the sense that there's a lot of
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: unexplored material going on. I imagine that however you're moving
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: through your relationship world is There's some stuff going on
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: related to the mutual trauma that you've experienced. And who
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: knows if they're dotted lines back to your childhood, perhaps.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: But it is informing.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Did you say dad?
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: Dotted lines related to your childhood, perhaps, I said. But
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: it is informing how you're moving through your relationship world
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: and how you're responding, both in this.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: Brief stint with this person and to these relationships that
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: are more back to back. So I don't have a
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: comment as to whether or not like one style is
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: better than the other. I'd be more concerned about what's
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: going on underneath that is informing how you're moving through
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: those paradigms right now. And I would guess there's just
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: unexplored material. There's fear and hurt and pain that maybe
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: gets you to rush or to want to fill that gap.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: And to me, I'm never that concerned about like, oh,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: you should wait. six weeks instead of three. Like, I don't,
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I don't, it doesn't matter to me. I'm just more
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: concerned about, I've.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Gotten so good at like either breaking up or being
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: dumped where I'm like, okay, you have four days to go.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Cause no, you are great.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: My relationships are not months on end. They're like six weeks,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: three weeks, two months. And then I'm like, I'm fucking good.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get back on the horse and I'm
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: going to keep riding.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: What I would want to know much more about is
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: how you're talking to yourselves before, during, and after. What
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: are the internal dialogues that you're having with yourself about yourself?
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: How are you feeling about yourself? How are you feeling
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: about putting yourself out there? How are you feeling about...
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: showing up with someone in an intimate fashion, emotionally, physically.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what that's like to show up
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: with someone.
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: Cause even with our ex, like he would come around,
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: but I have become, and this is also what scares
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: me is I just turned 36 and I've got two
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: babies on my own, you know, sole provider of the household.
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: And I feel like I have become so hyper independent
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: that when I think.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: About a guy, it makes me I like the idea.
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: Of a long distance because I know that you will
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: not interfere with my daily routine. I don't want to
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: have to worry about entertaining you. I don't want to
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: worry about how you're feeling. Seeing you once a month
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: sounds great. I get to go to bed by myself.
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: And that could be out of fear. It very well
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: could be out of fear of it not working out
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: and me being in a tailspin. But there are parts
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: of me where I had a guy for the first time.
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: I've been in my house for a couple years now,
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: and I had a guy who I've known since the
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: age of 21. I felt okay enough to have him
• 23:16
  Speaker 5: come over because, again, this is where my kids lay
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: their heads down to sleep.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: We're not just having men come over.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: But he stayed until like 11 a.m. the next day.
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: And I started spiraling. I'm like, my bed is usually
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: made at this point. I will have had my, you know, shower,
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: my coffee in this position. And you're throwing off my vibe, bro.
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: I'm going to need you to get the fuck out.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: And I was like, I could not do this every day. Oh,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: my God. So— That's a whole can of worms. Maybe
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I should call you.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: No, but I have a number of things to say,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: if you don't mind. Which is, no, I mean, I
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: think it's an intersection of truths, right? There's a part
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: of a coping mechanism that you've curated that is super beneficial.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: You're highly independent. It sounds like you're... a breadwinner, and
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: you can run your life by yourself. Those are incredible qualities.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: And so that piece, the part of you that is
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: wanting to maintain that and not have that interrupted, we
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: want to keep. That's amazing and an incredible example to
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: your kids, et cetera. Amazing. And alongside that, I imagine,
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: is the part of you that is afraid of getting
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: hurt again. How could that not be true? I mean,
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: based on the little you've shared with me so far,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: it sounds like you guys have had this mutually tangential
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: trauma related to the same person and a lack of
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: trust and children were involved. That is about as big
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: as it gets in the realm of romantic relationships.
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, could you be more vulnerable with a male
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: with children?
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: Could you be more vulnerable? And so I can't imagine
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: that part of what you've cobbled together is also to
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: protect yourself. And so the way I like to think
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: about it and talk about it is not like we
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: have to do one extreme or the other. You have
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: to like cut yourself wide open and bleed and make
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: yourself completely available, but rather explore like what parts are
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: we keeping? These parts of you that are so strong
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: and independent, amazing. Yes, yes, yes. And then what parts
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: of you do we want to explore that potentially can
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: slowly open up over time if we come to understand
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: what the fears are underneath?
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: If we could just take half of you and half
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: of me and put it together, we would be one
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: fucking unstoppable person.
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: By the way, though, if I could be sexual with
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: a woman, I would marry you tomorrow.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: You're like my dream woman.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. You're hot.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I love you.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: You're nice. You're good with my kids. They look like you.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I'm all in, babe. But I think you're obviously spot on.
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: And it's wild because when I did deal with this
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: guy for like a very brief moment, and now we
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: know God placed him there to test me, I failed.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Another one of him will appear.
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: And if I don't pass the fucking test, I'm going
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: to have to keep doing this. But it It made
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: me excited because for so long I told myself I
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: didn't want or need partnership. And granted, I was living
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: a pretty peaceful life. All kind of awesome to be like,
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: men are only good for one thing. This guy comes
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: in and shows me and makes me did not show
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: me makes me feel This way that I was like.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, I would move him in tomorrow. I
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: would like, I could do this. Like I can go there.
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: And that's what freaks me out is I don't know
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: how to find the gray. I can either be completely
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: by myself and hyper-independent Or meet someone and I'm like,
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: let's get married.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Have babies. Like I'm either I'm getting a sperm donor
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: for every child or I'm walking you down and handcuffing
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: you to the bed.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: You're never leaving. And I would say those tendencies towards
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: extreme belie anxiety because the anxiety shows up the most
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: in the gray because then we have to. be present
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: and vulnerable and self-advocate and endure like the ups and
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: the downs and saying the things and accepting the things, right?
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: The gray is like, I'm going to go slow. I'm
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: going to tolerate putting myself out there slowly. I'm going
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: to see how it feels to be in this man's presence.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: I'm going to express my needs in a way I
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: haven't done so before. I'm going to figure out a
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: way to cope with the anxiety when he doesn't show
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: up exactly as I want. I'm going to conflict manage
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: in a different way.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And this is where Alexa Pro comes in.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I'm serious.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: I am a big advocate.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: I am a big, big advocate. It does.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: It does.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I'm with you. It's the way you said it. I'm laughing.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I'm any sort of SSRI.
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: Because when you have high, high anxiety.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: No. First of all, you're allowed to be on an SSRI.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I'm totally kidding. I'm lightening the mood. I'm lightening the mood.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm drowning. I'm very offended.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: No, it's. When you have, it's like what we're talking about,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: like the whole picture. But when you have crippling anxiety
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: and then you put a little SSRI or something to
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: help relieve, it is amazing.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I think maybe I need that.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I think you need something for like the racing.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: I think I need a lot.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: No, you don't need a lot. You don't need a lot.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Like even the smallest, even for three months to see
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: the difference. I know this is completely off topic, but
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: it stops the racing thoughts. and that helps you, it
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: could save a marriage. I'm sure you've seen it. People
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that go on, you know, a medication when someone's either
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: bipolar or OCD and it kind of just like.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's, it's not off topic. And these are, are
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: my opinions and clinical experiences with psychotropic medications, which is,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: this is how I like to think of it. And
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: for those who are listening, who, um, would never avail
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: themselves of that option, that's okay too. Yeah, that's totally fine.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: So this isn't a comment on that. I'm just speaking
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: from my experience. And I'll speak from mine in terms of,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: from a clinical perspective, is that when you see someone,
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: for example, that has intense anxiety and they are intelligent
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: and motivated and emotionally present, but can't get a different result,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: still have crippling anxiety, for example, we start to, we
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: clinicians start to think about like, oh, There's something else
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: going on here because we should be able to be
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: a little bit better when we put our time and
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: effort and focus on self-care. And if that isn't happening,
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: I start to think about, huh, I wonder if there's
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: something chemical going on here.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Right. And so in my view, when we're talking about
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: a scenario like yours, SSRIs in that scenario can help
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: us access skills that we can't otherwise access when we
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: aren't on the medication.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Because your brain goes from like back here to the
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: frontal cortex and like it doesn't have time to calm
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: down and make like to pause.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: It helps you pause.
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: Yes. When I think about going on a date, I
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: had a guy ask me out and I literally sat
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: there and most people would be like, oh my gosh,
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: this is so cute.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I get to go out to dinner.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: My whole thing is, what will I wear? Then if
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: I show up, what if he's late? What if people
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: are staring at me? What if we'd have nothing to talk?
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: Like I start going down this rabbit hole and by
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: the time I have exhausted myself, I'm like, I'm not going.
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: I'm getting in bed and I'm watching Friends. And I'm
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: sticking to my nighttime routine because that makes me happy.
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: So maybe that would take the edge off. I've been
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: trying to do things that make me very uncomfortable. Like
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: really push me out of my comfort zone. And it's great,
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: but the anxiety is so debilitating before I actually go
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: to do it that I'm exhausted and drained. And then
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: I get there and it's fabulous and I have a
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: great time. But when I get home, I'm like, oh,
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: I did it, but I'm so glad it's over.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: I feel the same way.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I understand that feeling.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: I have some quick thoughts, which are when that kind
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: of catastrophic thinking comes, right? The anxiety of like, what
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: if all the bad things happen? Most of us react
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: to that anxiety with like, no, no, no, no, no,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: go away, go away. This like feels awful. I like
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: to suggest responding to that anxiety with a kinder like attitude, like, oh,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: Like I expected you. Hello, anxiety. Like, hello, old friend.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: I thought you might enter the picture. Like having a
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: relationship with it that like, I get it. I get you.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: I get why you're here. I have been through a
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: relationship where I was completely let down in every important
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: way possible. every important way possible. Why wouldn't my body
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: be responding as if I'm in fight or flight?
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's uncomfortable. It doesn't feel good. It sucks.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: But why wouldn't I? Of course. I mean, you're going
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: to have to have new experiences over time for your
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: body not to think it needs to go into fight
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: or flight. That's what's happening in that moment. And so
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: being able to go, oh, false alarm, but okay, I
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: get it. And making space for it and being kind
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: to it. And how we interrupt cognitive distortions, which is
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: what that is, right? The cognitive distortions that like, oh
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: my God, all these things will go wrong. I mean,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: could they go wrong? Sure. I mean, there is a possibility, unlikely,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: like small statistical possibility that all of the things will
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: go badly, right? But the cognitive distortion is like, oh
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: my God, everything is going to be bad. And the
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: only option is just to not go, but to really
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: build a relationship with that anxiety and create sacred space
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: for it and be able to remind yourself that, and
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: this is where the like old trauma stuff is useful
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: where it's like, Oh, some of this feeling is about
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: the old stuff is about this terrible relationship I had
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: and my body's in fight or flight responding to it.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: It's not only about this guy that I'm meant to
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: go have drinks with tomorrow night. It's almost not. There's
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: a little bit.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: It's new.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: And what are you going to wear? And is it
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: going to be awkward?
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Is there a difference between that and being excited?
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: There's the excitement sometimes that we confuse of I'm spiraling.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it's an intersection of all the things. Totally. Right?
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: And so trying not to believe your body right away
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: that like fight or flight, like this is an alarm
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: and I have to react.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: And just welcome her a bit.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: Welcome. Oh, that makes so much sense. Hi.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I love that you said hello. I've been expecting you.
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Yes. Welcome back. And I'm sure I'll see you again tomorrow.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: We should work this out. Like, I really want you here.
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Okay. I can do that.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Because you can, when we talk to our anxiety, like,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: oh my God, oh God, no, no, no, this is awful.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: And there's nothing I can do.
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: It heightens me because when it's not going away, then
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: I'm like, oh my God, and now it's not going away.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm profusely sweating through my gray shirt.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: And then do you know what happens is that you
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: take the action of canceling the date and now you've
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: paired together like Pavlov's dog, the anxiety only being fixed
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: by avoiding the thing. Oh my God.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: And I love a good cancel. I love a good cancel.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: And so that doesn't mean like, like you never cancel.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, if it's a particularly about like, sometimes things
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: happen and you pair those things together. But in general,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: if you can recognize that, make friends with the anxiety
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: and then give yourself like a just right challenge. So
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: maybe the just right challenge isn't like a two hour
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: long dinner, but it's like, a 30 minute drinks or something,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: or like a 30 minute coffee. You microdose the anxiety,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: the anxious thing, right?
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's genius. I really love that.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: So you're like, you know what? I can't do dinner,
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: but I can do coffee tomorrow for like 30 minutes.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: And then you're like, then I have a thing.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Amber's like, I do that all the time.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: And so you build up a muscle and then it
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: becomes a little bit less about whether or not you
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: liked him per se, although if you do bonus, but
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: more about like, oh, I have some mastery and agency over...
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: You're training yourself. That's right. Over my body and how
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: it responds. And then I get to start asking questions
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: to myself like, how do I feel around this person?
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not running a marathon. You're just like going
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: out for a walk.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: That's right. That's right.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Around the block.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: And then I'll be home.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And I'm calling you after this, by the way.
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: Like, I've been wanting to get into therapy because there's
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: just so much that I need to unpack.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: We've got codependent relationships happening. We've got so much.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: And now.
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: knowing that I'm, you know, four years away from 40,
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: which is like no fucking big deal, right?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Not a big deal. I've got my kids.
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: It's not like I'm on some biological ticking clock, but
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: I do look at my life and I'm like, okay,
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: even though I'm happy, the anxiety rears its ugly head of,
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: you've never experienced marriage. You will never, not you will never,
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: but most likely you Never experience being with the father
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: of your children. That's just a fact, right? Like even
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: if a guy comes in, he will not be the
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: father of my two children. So there are all of
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: these things that I start thinking about that keep me
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: up at night.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Like I'm fine throughout the.
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: Day because I'm keeping busy and I can celebrate all
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: of my accomplishments because I'm like bright eyed and bushy tailed.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: But the moment it's time to go.
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: To bed is when like the big ghost comes in
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: to just freak me the fuck out.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: And make me spiral.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: That is another time, although much more challenging because it's
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: dark and quiet and lonely. But that is another time
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: to be like, hey, girl. Hey, anxiety. Welcome back. Thought
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: you'd come when it was quiet. But and to be like, well, wow,
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: those are those are grief worthy things. That is sad
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: that you won't be with the father of your child. Right.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, in this case, it sounds healthy. But that's
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: very healthy. But that is sad for the whole family system.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: And you get to feel that. And so instead of
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: it being like, oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: and awful that like, right. Like, I guess my body
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: is telling me I need sacred space to mourn this.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: That's the signal rather than it being like, oh my God,
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: this is so awful. It's like, oh, this is a
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: signal for my body that I need. To think about
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: this and create sacred space to mourn this. Yeah. And
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: those kind of grief-worthy things we can never fix. Like
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: you were talking about this earlier, right? You can never
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: fix perfectly. You can never put like a bow on them.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Some things just hurt. Some things just hurt. And one
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: of the things I'd like to talk about is the
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: difference between being inside the emotion of something and outside
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: of it and narrating it.
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: Very different. When we're inside the emotion, we are acting
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: out from it. Totally. And the things we're thinking and
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: the things we're doing are coming from that pain point.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: And it can be uncontained, dysregulated and very difficult. But
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: when we come to know the pain point, we can
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: like stand outside of it and be like, look at me.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm feeling those feelings of grief about, you know,
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: not having the father, my children in my life.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: Look at me. I'm feeling that grief again about having
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: all these years by myself. And you can talk about
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: it and name the feeling. It sounds like you girls
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: do that often, like we're talking about the feeling, but
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: you see the difference that I mean is that when
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: people are acting out of feelings, it is often dysregulated
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: and damaging. And when I say damaging, I mean, sometimes
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: toxic and dysfunctional, but sometimes internally damaging because you're just
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: stuck in the feeling and it feels hopeless and despairing
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: and scary. Yeah. And it is why therapy is, ladies,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: is so important in my view. It is not the
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: only way to get there. Therapy is not the only
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: way to get there. But having some space to be
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: with a trusted other around hard feelings, I feel like
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: is one of the keys to mental health wellness. We
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: can't just do it inside our own head.
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: When you first start entering a relationship, right, you're like
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: three months in, even if there's nothing wrong, do you
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: find that it's healthy to, this is like people that
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: are divorced and have kids and bringing, you know, two kids.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Families together or whatever.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's healthy to start therapy as a
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: tool for a roadmap on how to deal with exes
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: and kids and just like past stuff?
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, if only, and this would be baseline reason,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: the way that you, if there's kids involved, the way
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: that you communicate with your kids about new others in
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: their sphere is important. It should be nuanced and intentional.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be overly complicated, but it should
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: be thought about. And the way that you bring in
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: another into your sphere should also be thought about in
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: terms of like when and how often and all the things.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: And I don't want to give some blanket formula, because
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: I think it depends on the scenario, age of the kids,
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: so many different things. But I think it's a wonderful idea.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong if you don't,
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: but there are a lot of dynamics happening when you're
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: trying to blend people together. And so if only for
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: the kids, and then when you start thinking about the
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: adults involved, if there are Xs in the picture, or
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: when you're formulating... a new connection, all of those things
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: can be conflictual, undermining, anxiety provoking, meeting one another's kids,
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: trying to figure out your place and the other's family
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: systems and vice versa. And conflict can arise or anxiety.
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: And again, just like we're talking about, if not spoken...
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: About it tends to come up in some other way
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: through symptoms, right? And now you and your partner are
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: agitated with each other or, you know, you're not answering
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: each other's texts or like something starts happening instead of
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: the thing being talked about. So I love the idea
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: of proactive therapy in that. scenario, I do a lot
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: of work and I work in high conflict. I mean,
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: I work in divorce in general, but high conflict divorce
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: as well. And so I end up seeing a lot
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: of folks in that scenario, post-divorce and in new relationships
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: and trying to think about all the things that are
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: involved in that.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What's your question, baby?
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: My question was, if you are seeing a couple as
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: their couples therapist, do do you see them individually? Like
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: how does that work if they, if they have their
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: own personal therapist, would that mean that you come in
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: with the other therapists.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And powwow about it?
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: Or like, what's the best way to go about individual
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: mixed with couples?
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: It's a really good question. The, uh, The best demonstrated
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: practice is having a couples therapist and then each individual
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: having their own individual therapist. And if you sign the
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: right release forms, everyone can talk and share and conceptualize
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: the case together and be a team, which I think
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: is wonderful. And sometimes a couples therapist will see each
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: member of the couple individually to get more information, have more.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: Complex discussions, that is a tricky scenario that should be
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: carefully negotiated. Both members of the couple should feel comfortable
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: with it. There should be rules of engagement. There's no secrets,
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: for example. And there should be kind of a stated intention.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: Like we're doing this because she feels more comfortable talking
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: about her traumatic history or saying more about the dynamics
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: of the relationship that don't feel good and need some
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: coaching in terms of how to say it when we're
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: all together or something. Right. But the best demonstrated practice
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: is to have it all separate and then to have
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: everybody collaborate.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Like a little team.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, one more before I release you.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: Let's say you work with a couple. They end up
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: not working out. The guy or the girl gets into
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: another relationship and comes to you for couples therapy. Would
• 43:16
  Speaker 5: you still work with that couple even though you worked
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: with that person and their ex?
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: Sounds familiar.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: I'm asking because this happened to me.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Me.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: So I'm seeing a couple, they divorce, and would I
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: now see one of the members with their new partner?
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: But you can't discuss the old relationship, can you?
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: No.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: What you worked?
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: No, I mean, I couldn't even acknowledge that I saw
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: the other person in therapy because it limits the confidentiality.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Would I see my old therapist out?
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: In L.A., she can't even say, oh, hey, Amber, I
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: have to go up to her.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: A good therapist will go to.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Like, that length to keep.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: That's correct.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: Same with an attorney.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: That's correct.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Family attorney.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: They cannot approach.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: So the limits of confidentiality would require me not to
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: even acknowledge that I had had that dyad in my
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: treatment to begin with.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: You're like, Dr.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: Hillary, remember it's me.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: You saw me on Tuesday.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: Always remember if you see your therapist.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Always remember if you see your therapist.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: Well, if you see your therapist out, the requirement is that...
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: We as therapists follow our clients' leads. So if I
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: was your therapist and you acknowledged me, I would also
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: acknowledge you, but I wouldn't say, oh, it was great
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: to see you in my office yesterday. If you said
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: to your friend, this is my therapist, Dr. Hillary, then
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: I would follow your lead, but I would not self-identify
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: unless you did.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: Do you do it in person?
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Are you a Zoomer?
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: I do all telehealth.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I want you in the room, baby. I want you
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: in the room.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: That's my rigid side.
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: I love it.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: I am so happy. Why do I? I feel like
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: when you cried, I cried your tears. My eyes are burning.
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: Really? That's how in sync we are. I love you
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: so much. Thank you so much for coming on to
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: our podcast.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Such a pleasure.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: You are just like a bright light and I could
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: listen to you all day.
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: Thank you guys for listening to another episode of An
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: Unlikely Affair. We're going to catch you guys next week.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: Bye.