Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Steve Fretzin | Sales-Free Practice Development Tactics for Lawyers

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Steve Fretzin | Sales-Free Practice Development Tactics for Lawyers · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:01
  Intro: Hello, and welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. We believe all women lawyers deserve to be wealthy women lawyers. Our mission is to provide thought provoking, powerful, and practical information to help you in creating your own sustainable wealth generating law firm without overwork or overwhelm so you can live your best life. I'm your host, Frederick, and I'm so excited for you to meet our guest today. So let's get started.
• 0:26
  Davina: Hi, and welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm Davina Frederick, and today I am super excited to have Steve Fretzin here with me. He is the founder of Fretzin Inc, which is a company that helps lawyers and law firms become good business developers, rainmakers, how to have sales free selling, which we definitely gotta pick his brain about that. That's the title of one of his five books, is it, Steve?
• 0:52
  Steve: Four or five or five or Don't hey. Don't put that kind of pressure on me. I'll write another book.
• 0:56
  Davina: Fifth, you know, at the end of the month. And he's also the host of Be That Lawyer Podcast. So if you guys haven't checked that out, be sure to check that out. It's great. So welcome, Steve.
• 1:07
  It's so good to see you here.
• 1:08
  Steve: So good to be here. Thanks for having me.
• 1:11
  Davina: So why don't you, elaborate a little bit on kind of, what I first of all, just tell us what Fretzin Inc. Does so that I, you know, I've mentioned business development, rainmaking, but why don't give me a more clear picture of that? And then we'll we'll dig a little deeper into some other things.
• 1:29
  Steve: Yeah. Absolutely. And it's it's evolved over time as most businesses do where you end up really spending your time with the right people and on the right programs. And so I only have two programs I offer. If somebody doesn't fit into these two buckets, then, you know, I've got lots and lots of people I can send them to.
• 1:46
  But it either comes down to a very robust coaching and training program. In fact, I had my class this morning. It's Tuesday mornings. I have about 15 attorneys from around the country attending a class, and the end result is they're learning all the skills they never learned in law school. They didn't learn at the law firm level.
• 2:03
  And I've basically like, I've got the recipes, and they just need to understand the recipes, and they need to execute on the recipes, and good things happen. So it's planning. It's executing on everything to help someone internalize how to be a business developer to make it a part of their life, a part of their practice, a part of how they're going to conduct business moving forward. So it has nothing to do with winging it or just figure it out on your own. It's all here's what you do.
• 2:26
  Here's what you say. Let's customize it to your personality to, you know you know, where you are in the country, what practice area, but it's all for individual attorneys who are highly ambitious. The other piece of my of what I do in in the business I run are I run a peer advisory roundtables. These are for lawyers who are already successful with business development marketing, etcetera, but they feel like they're on an island, and they're not they're not really comfortable talking to you know, internally with their firm about, you know, their challenges or the things they're looking to accomplish. And so here's an accountability group of high performing professionals that challenge each other, question each other, share best practices, and I'm currently running five of those groups also internationally.
• 3:07
  So those are really the two things, and that's that's all I do all day is help those
• 3:11
  Davina: lawyers to That sounds lot. A lot.
• 3:14
  Steve: Sounds like a lot. But, again, the nice thing about groups is, you know, when you have a group, you know, you're you're there. It's not individual. So you're spending time. Yes.
• 3:23
  So there's some one on one, but a lot of it is is, you know, the groups. And so you can meet with 10 people or two people, and it's the same amount of time. So I'd rather put people together in groups where, I can teach and coach and facilitate, and and it actually takes less time than if I was to try to meet with them all individually every moment.
• 3:40
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, also, they have the benefit of each other. I know with our group program, that's a lot that's that's a lot of the beauty of it is community and Yeah. The resource of other people, not just the expert, you know, who's you know, with the coaches are in there supporting and facilitating, but we also like to connect people because they can help each other even beyond that.
• 4:02
  Yeah. So let's talk how about how you came you're you're not a lawyer. Right?
• 4:09
  Steve: Not a lawyer.
• 4:10
  Davina: And I so I wanna talk about your journey, how how you came to the dark side, and you came over and started working with lawyers exclusively because I know you have a an extensive background. So why don't you kind of tell us that story?
• 4:25
  Steve: Yeah. And so my father's a retired attorney, and I sort of kinda grew up in the legal space, you know, watching my father and, of course, getting grilled as a teenager, put on the cross as a college student. And, you know, the the, you know, he he came from from, you know, poverty. He came from the from the slums of Chicago and came up and paid his way through law, you know, undergrad and law school and, you know, just a self made guy and then was super successful as a solo practitioner his whole career. So that's what I but I never wanted to be a lawyer.
• 4:54
  I I'm more of a relationship guy. I love people. I love solving problems and engaging with people, but in a different way. And so I I and I never thought I'd work in legal. So I started my I I kinda came up in the sales in a in a sales world where eventually I was selling franchises.
• 5:11
  And the difference between selling advertising or selling high-tech or some of the things I did in my past was when you're selling a franchise, you're selling a business. It's not only a big ticket, but then I was involved and engaged in helping them on every side of the business from finding a location, putting them in business, helping them grow, getting them advertising, taking them out selling, like, everything I had to do to help a business develop and grow, and I was a part of that. I got paid based on their success. So it was really a a game changing experience for me to help put people in business and then help them to succeed in business to the degree where I decided to start my own sales consultancy in 2004, mainly focused on helping entrepreneurs, the local website guy, the local CPA, the local carpet cleaner. It didn't really matter.
• 5:59
  And I ended up, getting so much experience working with small businesses, large corporations like Canon and Mesro Financial here in Chicago, Chicago Tribune. And it was just great, and I never had an eye for attorneys. And then in 2008, the recession hit, and a lot of the attorneys in the local Chicagoland area, were looking for jobs. They their hours were down. There was all kinds of problems as we know.
• 6:23
  And so I started getting referred lawyers. And I worked with one. I worked with two, and then a firm, then another, another. What they loved about working with me was not only, you know, just for my personality, but more it was this that I had systems. I had processes, and they worked really, really well for lawyers.
• 6:39
  So when you mentioned my first book, sales free selling, well, that's that's interesting because I wanna go out and pitch. I need to go out and sell. I need to go out and convince. And those are words that I talk against that I say, don't do that. Let's actually go out and build relationships.
• 6:54
  Let's ask questions. Let's qualify. Let's let's be understanding and demonstrate empathy as a way to get business and walk someone through a buying decision versus going on what lawyers call a pitch meeting, which I think is all, you know, sort of back assword. So they really appreciated all of the systems and processes I had for networking and for building business and doing it in less time with less energy and getting better results. So it took off.
• 7:19
  And within two years, about 85% of my business had become lawyers and law firms. And so that continued to build. And only in the last couple years did I stop working with law firms and only focus on individual attorneys. They can be at a law firm, but I'm not working with actual law firms where I'm dealing with their, you know, business development folks, their marketing people, the managing partner, all that. I I'm just Like All the committees.
• 7:42
  The committees and all the layers of kind of BS and minutiae that people have to go through. And I've never been happier just dealing with highly ambitious motivated attorneys that seek me out and that we connect with to work together, and it's just been a it's been an absolute blessing.
• 7:58
  Davina: Right. Right. Right. I think that's why I why I chose to work with I mean, my journey is kind of similar to yours in that I when I started this business, I started out working with various professional service businesses because that's what my background is in. And being a lawyer myself and having built a successful law firm, a lot of people sort of women lawyers in particular, but men and women started gravitating toward me.
• 8:23
  And so eventually, that just I just niched down to that because there's so much to learn in just one area. There's so much that can be taught just to, you know, a particular group. And and and attorneys are a little bit different in that we have all these ethical sort of obligations. And I do think we're taught in law school that law school is one of three learned professions, and this elevates us to some other standard. But if you are out in business trying to make money, you still have the same business principles.
• 8:55
  You have to figure out a way to sell your services because if a sale is not made, business isn't happening. And you're, you know, you're not actually working. You've got a charity or a hobby going on. You're not actually running a business. In your case so it's interesting you work with individual lawyers because I used to work for a large law firm, and one of the things that the firm did was part of my job actually was to help create individual business development plans for individual lawyers.
• 9:28
  And it was so interesting because you do have different personalities. You there there were those who were just natural born rainmakers. That's what they seemed to be. And they were the ones who brought in the lion's share of the business to the firm, and it kind of trickled down to other people. But the firm was trying to get every partner to bring in business, and I think they finally realized one day that, you know, there were some partners that just were the doers, the executors, and some were much better at rainmaking.
• 10:02
  I'm sure you've encountered that in working with your clients. You have a variety of personalities. You have those introverts who never want to market. They never want to rain make. They never wanna but they know they have to.
• 10:16
  Their law firms require it, and they have to come up with a plan for doing that. So what kinds of let's let's talk about some of the different kinds of personalities that maybe you've seen. Do they fall into categories? Do you when you meet somebody, do you sort of identify them and go, this is an introverted person. This is an extroverted person.
• 10:37
  This is somebody who already has connections. This is somebody who doesn't wanna leave their desk. Yeah. And how do you deal with those kinds of different differences?
• 10:45
  Steve: Yeah. So the so one of the first things that I engaged in when I started my own business in 2004 was, DISC assessments. And people know about personality assessments, and some people know about behavioral assessments like the DISC. And what I teach is how to read people's behaviors. And so understanding if someone's an introvert or extrovert, whether they're more task oriented, people oriented, And not only knowing yourself, but then also being able to read others because what it does is it changes how we communicate.
• 11:13
  And so if I'm dealing with an introvert, I know not only in the sales process, but also as when they engage me as their coach that I I have to, you know, use systems and processes and language that's gonna connect them to me and connect them to what the, and I need to provide proof and evidence and things that are gonna hit home. I can't say trust me or this is how just do what I say. Like, that's not gonna go over well. And I wanna teach them the language of behavior as well because as an introvert out dealing with extroverts and seeming like they're doom and gloom or seeming like they're they're not interested when in fact they are. They just they're not prepared to go above their introversion to meet meet at someone's level.
• 11:55
  So, like, let's say that I'm an introvert and I'm dealing with a general counsel. That general counsel is very outgoing. I'm gonna teach an introvert how to step up and ask questions and engage in a way that's gonna make them feel like the you're like you're an extrovert too. Like, we're the same person even though we're not as a way to improve communication. So I think, you know, I'm engaging in that with how I work with my clients, but I'm also teaching my clients how to do that because they they can't treat people.
• 12:21
  So the saying used to be treat people the way you wanna be treated. Right? That was what we grew up with. And what I'm suggesting is the golden rule, and it's it's a little broken. I'm teaching them to treat people the way they wanna be treated.
• 12:32
  And so what that does is it improves communication not by being fake, but by adapting and improving the level of communication because we've identified that someone's different than us. And that's a soft skill. You're never gonna learn that in law school. You're never gonna learn that at the law firm level. These are the soft skills that are so critical that in process.
• 12:51
  Right? I mean, what what introvert doesn't appreciate and enjoy following a process? Like, that's, you know, that's their breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They can eat that all day. So I I'm giving them a process to follow that they can try, get results from, get the proof and evidence that it works, and then they're bought in.
• 13:10
  Until they get that evidence and proof and validation that this works in fact, I also have them talk with my clients or visit my class and audit my class so that they can get more evidence that this works and hear from other clients that it's working. They're getting results. So that's what we need to do. And the by the way, the extroverts, the ones that are the ray makers with the big personalities, in some instances, I have to, like, calm them down and saying, look. You're too much of a wild person.
• 13:35
  Davina: You that's what I was about to ask you. I was about to ask you if because I think a lot of times I I remember when I first was, you know, kind of tasked with business development, and I'm a relationship. I'm a strategic thinker in a relationship person.
• 13:51
  Steve: Yeah.
• 13:51
  Davina: And the relationship piece is comes from a place of I love everybody, and I want everybody to love me. It's that sort of, you know, I'm a middle child of three. You know? I Yeah. I'm the diplomat.
• 14:06
  I'm the one who wants everybody to get along and all of that. And but that in rainmaking in and at that that time, it was business development for an agency. I wasn't I didn't have the skill, the polished skill to turn the friendship into business.
• 14:23
  Steve: Yeah.
• 14:23
  Davina: And so I would often you know, I'd have great relationships with people, but they didn't want you know, they didn't say, hey. Let's work together. I had people ask me out on dates, but I was like, no. No. No.
• 14:37
  No. I'm trying to get business here. Yeah. I was younger. I was 30 in my thirties then.
• 14:41
  But that so I I see that as a skill. Just because you're extroverted and you love people and you love being out and being the life of the party doesn't mean that you're gonna automatically be a great business developer or rainmaker because there's this whole skill set in how, like you said, to help people through the decision making process to hire your firm. And I so I imagine you spend a lot of time with extroverts as well doing that. So I think I think a lot of introverts automatically assume if you're extroverted, it must be so much easier for you.
• 15:17
  Steve: And that's the thing is I'm putting I'm putting all of these extroverts and introverts in a class together, and they're learning the same systems, the same structures. They're they're role playing and practicing together. They're giving each other feedback. Things that that lawyers didn't even know existed exists in within my structure. And the results are fantastic because the the introverts are learning a process they can follow that takes them out of their shell.
• 15:42
  The introverts are learning a process that takes them from the lampshade on the head at the party, loving everybody to, wait a second. I actually need to get results with this love. I need to get results like, you know, if if if I love everybody and everybody loves me and I'm but and I don't wanna ever, you know, push a button in the wrong way, then I'm not gonna push it. And so therefore, I'm not asking for introductions. I'm not asking for referrals.
• 16:03
  I'm not asking for the sale. I'm just hoping that it happens. And in my world, hope is not a wonderful place to be because we're counting on business, and we're hoping that it comes in. And when it doesn't, then, you know, our heart sinks into our stomach, and we feel sick about it because that was gonna make our year or that was gonna make our quarter. And so what I'd rather say is instead of living in hope, let's actually know what's going on.
• 16:24
  Let's have a process that that gets things to a yes or moves things to a no where we understand why and we understand why they're moving forward or why they're not and be okay with it because not everybody's a fit. But let's have every opportunity and chance to get the business not through selling and pitching, but through understanding, listening, and and having a more consultative approach to it. And that's really what we're working on.
• 16:48
  Davina: So I wanna talk about business development a little bit different way because I know when you're dealing with law firm lawyers, lawyers who work for big law or medium sized law firms, oftentimes, what they're doing is they're pitching in house lawyers for large companies. And that's where a lot of that sort of, know, when you're talking about meeting people and getting them, you know, connecting, getting that buying decision. But when you're dealing with solo lawyers or small firm lawyers, oftentimes what they're doing is, you know, leads are coming because people are referring to us because somebody out there likes us and they're referring us business. Or we've got ads running on Google. Or we may be on LinkedIn a little bit posting stuff, but we all hate it and, you know, we don't wanna so nobody's really on it.
• 17:39
  So we're in Facebook groups chatting, and that's where a lot of, you know, sort of things people connect with each other is in these in this way. Because we're talking about a new generation as well in addition to kind of this solo firms are different in that we're not pitching in house lawyers. It's not a big thing where we're going with other people and pitching large corporations. We're working with consumers or small businesses like ours. So let's talk about networking in that light where you are you're wanting to create relationships with other other professionals, and I think that lawyers often focus only on other lawyers, which is a mistake in my opinion.
• 18:26
  And you're and you're wanting them to refer business to you in the future when an opportunity arises for them to refer business to you. So let's talk about that and how we do that. And then let's talk about also how to not rely on random referrals and, like, create our own lead generation process. You know what I mean?
• 18:54
  Steve: Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier about, you know, strategic planning, lawyers having written plans, and most don't. And the ones that do, especially law firm lawyers, you know, it's a list of the groups they belong to. It's a list of their clients.
• 19:07
  It's a list of this, a list of that. That's not a plan. That's a part of a plan. That's a piece of a plan. So the first thing I try to do with any lawyer is try to identify who are the targets, who are the targets that are the buyers for your services, and who are gonna be the best connectors to those targets?
• 19:23
  So if you're a divorce attorney, for example, and the people that are gonna that are most likely to refer you, I'll just make make up some examples, are therapists, estate planners, and financial planners. There's three groups right there. They're all being kind of they're in the weeds with couples and families and opportunities where where things might go south, and they're gonna need a a relationship to send their people to that they can trust. And lawyers are just out randomly meeting other lawyers and meeting other people without the structure of who are my targets? Who should I actually be spending most of my time with?
• 19:59
  Okay. And that doesn't mean you can't meet with a CPA or you can't meet with another divorce attorney or someone else. However, ultimately, when you understand who your targets are, you can spend your you can spend your invest your time much more wisely. So I think understanding the end user targets and, of course, the the strategic partner targets is is a is a big part of the plan. And once we have that, we then say, alright.
• 20:22
  So now I'm not meeting people, and I'm having all these random coffees and dinners and drinks and things like that. How am I running those meetings? Well, we just let it ride. We hope we just we just wing it. And that's also a misstep because a lot of those meetings end with, you know, it's really nice meeting you, Devina.
• 20:36
  Let's, you know, let's keep our eyes open for each other. Nice meeting you. Let's let's keep in touch. You know, I I'd love to be in a position to refer you. And then they're gone.
• 20:45
  And nothing ever happens and nothing ever comes from it. Or if you're like me, what I used to do is I'd say, here are three connections that I wanna make for you. You would say that's so wonderful. Thank you, Steve. And then that's the end of it.
• 20:57
  I give you the three. You never give me. And now I'm feeling a little frustrated about it, and I do that over and over again. And I'm basically like a professional meter, a professional giver, hoping that karma is gonna come somehow save me. And I I do believe in giving.
• 21:10
  I'm not one of these people who who says that's a bad thing. Right? Nobody thinks that's a bad thing. But I think it's about giving intelligently. It's about qualifying.
• 21:19
  And an easy way to kind of of lay this out that I think your audience will really appreciate is, it's like I'm I'm a I'm a restaurant manager, and I need to bring in the right staff to build the restaurant. I need a wait staff. I need, the right chefs in in the kitchen. I need the front and the back end to work together in harmony. And if somebody isn't working out, I need to replace them.
• 21:44
  Right? That's pretty simple. But I'm always recruiting. I'm always looking for talent. I'm I'm at other restaurants.
• 21:51
  And, yes, I'm dealing with a waiter, but maybe I'm also look thinking, would this waiter be better at my restaurant than the restaurant she's at now or he's at now? So if we think about networking more like a recruiting effort for building a dream team for the restaurant, that's a great way to think about it so that you can bring in the three best waiters, the three best chefs, the three best whatever. And in this example for an attorney would be the three best financial planners, the three best therapists, and the three best estate planners because those are the areas I know I can get the most possible referrals in a given year. Now I have to
• 22:25
  Davina: Right.
• 22:25
  Steve: Build them in and and I have to maintain them, and I have to feed them back. Right? It's a two way street. If somebody's just feeding me business and I'm not feeding them back, again, they may not want that or care about that. If they don't, great.
• 22:36
  I can build the social component additionally, but I think it's most people looking for reciprocation. And so the financial planner would love to throw people at me, and, of course, he or she is looking for that reciprocation back.
• 22:47
  Davina: Right. Right. And I wanted to I wanna dive a little deeper into the reciprocation because I think that is the big challenge. I know I used to be a member of BNI, Business Network International
• 23:00
  Steve: Sure.
• 23:00
  Davina: For anybody who's not familiar with that. And I and I love BNI, I met a lot of great people in BNI. I did that, and I actually, you know, got quite a bit of business out of my BNI group. I left it for a couple of reasons. One is I no longer wanted to get up and be someplace seven in the morning.
• 23:19
  Steve: Their their models flood in that way alone. Seven AMBs.
• 23:22
  Davina: Had to dress up anymore, and I was like, no. I don't wanna do this. And, also, I really wanted to expand my network throughout the country and not and so I wanted to focus my time doing that, not just not local business. But so the philosophy of BNI, for anybody who's ever been in it, and I'm sure a lot of people, if you're listening to this, you probably are familiar with it, is giver's gain. And that's this idea that if I give you referrals, then then other people in the group will be kind enough to give me referrals.
• 23:54
  And what I found in the group is that a lot of people would find they identify the easiest people to give referrals to in the group. And so you might give different people referrals, but everybody else would be giving them to, you know, the the lady who worked at the hair salon. It's easy enough to send people there to have their haircut or the the guy who washed windows. I mean, it's easy to give him a referral because if all else failed, you know, you could just say, come to my house and clean my windows.
• 24:21
  Steve: There's Everybody's got everybody's got windows.
• 24:23
  Davina: Your obligation. We gotta clean windows. Right?
• 24:25
  Steve: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Davina: And so it's a way to meet your obligation, but the more complicated referrals, it it's harder for people to do that. And so those people will be sort of left out in the cold. And the so there was a structure to sort of do this givers gain and and this idea that if you are a big hearted and generous person, then you're naturally gonna be the recipient of other people's generosity. And while that is a lovely thought and I think I think energetically and universally, yes, if you show up as a good person in the world, you know, there will be a a lot of people who that resonates with, and that will come back to you. But when it comes to business referrals, I think we need to be a little bit more dialed in on a that's not a strategy.
• 25:11
  And how do you develop those how do you express that you're wanting it to be a reciprocal relationship? And how more importantly, how do you teach that other person how to, you know, be somebody who can be in a reciprocal relationship? Because it is what you may want out of the relationship. Maybe, you know, they don't know your business, and so they don't know who to send you. Yeah.
• 25:47
  I often find, for example, and I'll just give a quick example, is that I will have a lot of people who will who want to send me you know, they they can't send me a client and say, I have this friend. She really needs coaching bad. You real you know, you you really need coaching bad. It's like send send somebody to a personal trainer. You know?
• 26:08
  Like, you really need to lose some weight, man. Go see my personal trainer.
• 26:11
  Steve: Yeah. Yeah.
• 26:11
  Davina: An awkward kind of thing. But I often find people who want to send me people who do what I do. They you know, meet this person who does exactly or very close to what you do.
• 26:23
  Steve: Yeah. I I isn't that odd?
• 26:24
  Davina: I'm thinking we have a shared audience Right. And that's going to be the thing. So and I'm like, you know, it'll be great to know them. It'd be great to, you know, network with them and share insider secrets or something, but, you know, they're probably not going to refer me business. I'm probably not gonna refer them business.
• 26:42
  So how how do we take those next steps to teach other people how to be in that mutually beneficial relationship with us?
• 26:51
  Steve: Yeah. So I it's funny. So we we actually covered this. I had my class this morning. Tuesday mornings is kind of my thing, and we covered this.
• 26:57
  And I actually had the lawyers in my group role play this exact setup. And the two things I'd say, one is, again, you have to understand who your targets are and that you can meet with everybody if you've got unlimited time. But if you really have have, you know, billable hours to get to and things that are priority in your world and families and all that, I mean, you've gotta protect your time. So you wanna introduce me to the guy who produces, you know, tchotchkes, these little USB drives and pens. And that's not really someone that I feel strongly would be a a great person for me to sit down and meet with.
• 27:32
  I would say, you know, I appreciate that. However, if I'm being honest, you know, the real the real people I wanna meet are and then, like, for example, for me, I'm looking to meet other people with legal audiences. So you you would be an example. It would be someone from a practice management company. Like, one of my sponsors from my podcast is Practice Panther.
• 27:50
  Love meeting with Practice Panther. We can network all day because they have lawyers who are ambitious. I have lawyers who are ambitious. We can definitely network. And so I'm I'm you know, that's where where my jam is.
• 28:00
  So I would agree and appreciate someone's intro, but I would say I would redirect them to say, but really who I who would be better for me would be. And try to take not totally discount their idea, but let them know this is really better for me if that's okay. Alright? Now the second piece of this is, let's say that you and I decide to meet, and we're gonna have a coffee together. I teach agenda setting for networking meetings, a coffee, for example, that is ironclad to get better results than winging it.
• 28:31
  So if you're okay with it, can I share it with you? We can we can we we role play through it together?
• 28:37
  Davina: We could try. Yeah.
• 28:38
  Steve: Let's try. So so alright. You are in the legal space. I am in the legal space. We've been talking for ten minutes about, let's say, fitness, physical fitness, and we both, you know, like that, and we like to talk about it, and we know that about each other.
• 28:52
  We did our homework or whatever. Okay. So we talk ten minutes, and then I would say the following, and you'll you'll role play with me. Okay? This will be our little our little fun scene.
• 29:00
  Okay? So, Devina, I I think we could probably talk about fitness and exercise and nutrition all day, but but listen, I know how valuable your time is and and quite frankly, mine as well. And I thought just to make the best use of our remaining time, would it be okay just to set a quick game plan for us?
• 29:15
  Davina: Oh, sure. Yeah. I'd love that.
• 29:16
  Steve: Okay. Great. So I know we had agreed on speaking for about an hour. We've got about fifty minutes left. And from my perspective, the purpose of us meeting was really just to get to know each other better and also just see if there's a fit.
• 29:27
  We may be in a position to sort of help each other moving forward. Is that kinda how you saw it as well?
• 29:32
  Davina: Oh, absolutely.
• 29:33
  Steve: Okay. So what might make sense is if if we could just sort of split up the talk time, if you could take about fifteen minutes and share not only, you know, what you do and how you help people, but most importantly, who are you looking to meet? Because I'd love to be in a position to try to figure out, you know, some some good connections for you. And then if it's okay, I could take fifteen minutes and do the same thing, and, clearly, we could pepper each other with questions. And the end result might be that it that near the end of the meeting, we might come up with some small baby step or some connection for each other that might be valuable, not giving away the farm and not giving away nothing, but something to sort of test the waters a bit just to see how we play in the sandbox together.
• 30:11
  Is that something you'd be open to?
• 30:13
  Davina: Oh, I love that idea. Okay. That's a great idea, Steve.
• 30:16
  Steve: Great. Great. So if you wouldn't mind, let me let me hear more about what you do and scene. Okay. Yeah.
• 30:21
  So we just went through a role play that took ninety seconds. And in that ninety seconds, not only did I lay out a structure where we can both win, we can both have a good experience, limited the time, agreed on the fit, decided to split up the talk time, and give each other something small at the end, and there's two benefits to that. Number one is why are you meeting with me, and why am I meeting with you?
• 30:45
  Davina: Right. Right.
• 30:46
  Steve: Ultimately, we're looking for some next step or some value takeaway. And instead of it just be me giving you and you blowing me off or not doing anything, I'm we're actually exchanging one good connection, not my top client and not a nothing burger, you know, thing like that. Something of value, but here's the best part. Remember earlier I mentioned about the restaurant, and I'm looking for chefs. I'm looking for waiters.
• 31:10
  I'm looking for, you know, the the the the front staff. Okay? I'm actually testing you out. Because if you say you've got something for me and then you don't follow through and I email you and you don't follow through and I call you and you don't follow through, do I run do I really want you working at my restaurant? Are you gonna show up on time?
• 31:28
  Are you gonna make the souffle the way we discussed? You know? Whatever. You know? So this is not only an opportunity to walk away with something of value, but also to qualify that someone has the capacity, the intellect, the ability to follow through on a commitment, which is at the heart of networking.
• 31:44
  People don't realize it, but it's all about how they follow through and how you follow through that makes networking work.
• 31:51
  Davina: Otherwise about the
• 31:52
  Steve: Yeah.
• 31:53
  Davina: Kind of script that you just went through is that it is we know when we're meeting somebody for networking purposes. Perhaps somebody's introduces, oh, this would be great. You need to get to know Steve, you know, and you need to get to know Davina. Right? And we know that that's meeting with somebody, it's it's an unspoken undercurrent that's going on there.
• 32:16
  This is supposed to be a networking meeting. It's supposed to be a business development meeting. And I like what you did pulls it right out and just puts it out, like, let's just talk turkey here. This is about this goes beyond us talking about our shared interest. This goes beyond just looking for ways that we can work together, maybe refer each other business, and how can we do that?
• 32:40
  And it also creates a framework for educating the other person about who you're looking for so you really have an opportunity, and they have an opportunity to educate you. Because I think that is what is the people go to networking events or they and then they follow-up with a virtual coffee or an in person coffee or whatever. And it's like this prolonged sort of dating thing where we need to have how many of them. Now we leave coffee and go, okay. Well, let's get together for lunch soon or let me invite you to and that's that is wonderful to have connections and relationships, and there may be some people that's better.
• 33:15
  But then you may have other people that, like, I don't really wanna socialize with them, but I think that we can refer each other business. What do you say to people, though, who say, I never leave my office. I don't know who I'm gonna refer to this person. Right?
• 33:29
  Steve: Right. Right. So there's a list of things that I share with my clients of how you can add value for somebody without giving them, like, direct business. So I'm meeting you for the first time. Do I really wanna send one of my clients to you to help with their money?
• 33:44
  Maybe, maybe not. But, ultimately, I need to make sure you and I are friends, that you and I have the the the the connection and the rapport and the interest to to do that. But most people would say, look. I I you want a litigation matter. I don't have a litigation matter for you.
• 34:00
  You wanna meet a GC? I don't have a GC to meet for you to meet with on the first date. So Mhmm. When I say let's take a baby step, I mean that. So, again, if you're a divorce attorney and I know that estate planners, financial planners, and therapists, and there's probably more, there's a list of 10 others that you might wanna meet, that and I'm hearing who you wanna meet because remember, you're gonna tell me that in your fifteen minutes of fame.
• 34:22
  I'm making notes, I'm writing down, here's a good connection. Here's a good connection. Or I could invite you to come to a networking group that I belong to and introduce you to my friends. That's a connection. I could help teach you something about business development, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, networking that adds value.
• 34:38
  That could act as a connection or as a next step. I could send you an article, but I could introduce you to someone else at my firm that I think also might be good for you to meet. So there's more than one ways to skin that cat, but ultimately, people need to build networks where they have a team around them, a group around them. It's like playing chess with no pieces on the board. You can't do it.
• 35:00
  You have to go out and meet people and build relationships and have pieces on the board, and that opens up the ability to know a financial planner, to know a therapist, to know an estate planning attorney.
• 35:10
  Davina: Of the one of the things that is that is really LinkedIn. You I mean, just introducing to somebody each introducing somebody to somebody in your LinkedIn network that you know or you're familiar with and you think, oh, you know, this probably a good person for you to meet. I'd be happy or pick five people on my list. I'll be happy to introduce. I mean, there's all kinds of
• 35:31
  Steve: Yeah.
• 35:31
  Davina: Sort of ways that you can do that. You and I started this relationship with a podcast, you know, exchange. You're gonna come on my podcast. I'll get to know you a little better. I'll come on yours.
• 35:41
  That is baby step because we both have podcasts and the ability to do that. So there are all kinds of ways that you can sort of take that next step. But I think the end goal is still not to it it's not something I mean, you want a relationship with people, but also establishing it's a professional relationship. I know, you know, I think you and I were talking about before. I I was working for a a PR firm, and I was new to business development in that.
• 36:07
  It was a it was actually an ad agency. And then I I didn't have any of that skill and ability to transfer relationships into business. And instead, I'd often get asked out on dates, which was not what I wanted. Right. You know?
• 36:26
  Because they're, oh, why are we spending all this time together? Well, I'm trying to spend this time together and get you to do business with us, but I never came out and asked for specifically what I was looking for or what I wanted. And so then there's, you know, figuring those things out. I don't know that this happens as much. This was in the nineties.
• 36:42
  Hopefully, people are a little more savvy now about doing that. But I do want to you know, we've used a lot of time already, but I do wanna get into the so many questions, Steve. So many questions for my audience. Get into the Sales-Free Selling. I know it's your first book, but we're gonna go back there.
• 37:05
  Because I do think that one of the biggest challenges for solo lawyers or small firm lawyers where the attorneys are still handling the majority of the consultations, although we try to get them to scale sort of beyond that. But the firm owner is handling a lot of the consultations, and they the minute the client gives any sort of objection or pushback, it is a, okay. Well, thanks for your consideration. Think about it. You think about it, and call me when you're ready.
• 37:40
  That happens. Instead of the ability to sort of take objections, like the the common one is money, but also let me talk to somebody else about it. Let me talk to hubby or spouse, wife, business partner, whatever it is, right, about it before I hire you. Well, I don't know if I'm gonna have, you know, time. Attorneys don't get that as much because usually you have people with pressing problems, but maybe I'm not ready yet.
• 38:08
  I need to think about it. Those kinds of things. Yeah. What when you talk about no so I think I think a lot of attorneys are turned off by sort of what they believe is sales techniques that people use on them. So they don't wanna be like that.
• 38:22
  Steve: Right.
• 38:23
  Davina: And also they don't want to be they don't wanna show you that they want your money. They don't need your money even though they may need the money. Right? All the kind of ego things that come into play. Can you give us just a quick sort of tip or framework or something around that or or something about how to handle objections?
• 38:43
  You don't need to go through the whole thing. They can get your book. But give me something you think would be a really good gold nugget.
• 38:50
  Steve: Well, let's let's talk about why objections happen. Generally, it's because of something that was said. So if I tell you that I'm charging a $100,000 for a service, you might have an objection. Like, that's a lot of money, but you don't know what the service includes. You don't know the value of the service.
• 39:07
  You don't know that it could make you a million dollars. Okay? So what the problem is is that buyers want information and price and solutions and free consulting. That's what buyers want. The seller of legal services, the lawyers, love to solve, they love to talk, and they love to to share.
• 39:25
  So what's happening is the buyers are getting everything they want, and they're not really understanding or being walked through a buying decision. They're just being given prescriptions
• 39:35
  Davina: Legally advice.
• 39:36
  Steve: Yeah. They're getting advice. They're getting pricing. They're getting everything they want, but it's really backwards as it relates to my world because I'm this is the mantra that I'll share, and it's prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. If I walk into a doctor's office and I say my arm is hurting and the doctor takes one look at it and says, let's cut off the arm.
• 39:55
  I have a big problem with that. I need this arm. Right? It helps when I drive and helps when I say hi and I wave to people. Yeah.
• 40:01
  Okay? What would we want the doctor to really do? Goof goofs aside. Right? We want how did it happen?
• 40:08
  Tell me about it. Let's see your range of motion. Let's take an X-ray. Let's look at this and figure out what it is and what to do. And lawyers are skipping that entire process and going right to let's cut off the arm because that's what the buyers are asking for.
• 40:22
  The buyers we're all trained that way. Right? That's what buyers are trained to do. And lawyers are buyers too. And guess what?
• 40:29
  When you go to buy a car, you know, you you're looking for pricing information. You're not looking to be asked questions, but it's it's wrong. So what my program and my process in Sales-Free Selling is all about is we're not prescribing first. We're prescribing at the end, and that's why objections aren't happening. They're not happening throughout the meeting because we're building relationship.
• 40:51
  We're establishing that agenda or game plan to make the meeting about them, their problems, their issues, their needs, not about me, the lawyer. K? They're not gonna know how many years I've been practicing. They're not gonna know how great my firm is. They're not gonna know about how I'm gonna solve the solve the case.
• 41:08
  It ain't happening because I don't know anything yet. So if I make the entire engagement about in the meeting about them and their problems, not only do they feel listened to, they feel understood. I actually know what to then eventually talk to them about at the back end because I did my job of consulting and questioning and listening and empathy along the way. And this is all a learned skill, and guess what lawyers don't learn? This skill.
• 41:35
  They go through law school and law firm, and they're not being taught a proper way to walk a buyer through a buying decision. So, yes, of course, they're gonna run-in to how do I handle objections and how do I that's all eighties, nineties, and early two thousand sales techniques.
• 41:50
  Davina: Well and and, you know, I read some stats. It's, something like 74%. Like, we have over a 100,000 lawyers here in Florida, 74% are small small business owners, you know, solos and small firm owners. They're not the big law school prepares you for sort of going to work in a firm and thinking you're gonna do the work of a lawyer. But even lawyers who go work in a firm, if you're on a partnership track, you're eventually gonna get to the point where you've got to learn how to have those conversations.
• 42:19
  I always tell my clients, your agenda and your client's agenda are we we believe we have the same agenda coming into the meeting, but we have two different agendas. And I said, their agenda is to get as much free legal advice as they can get or low cost legal advice if they paid a consult fee, but free if they can get it. Your which, hey, this is this is how people are. It's how consumers are. No.
• 42:40
  Don't you can't hold that against them. That's how you would be. That's how you are. That's how lawyers are.
• 42:45
  Steve: If you needed a lawyer, you would be doing that too.
• 42:47
  Davina: Yeah. Right? Yeah. So but lawyers, the the they think the agenda is to lawyer in that conversation in that initial conversation. The agenda is to lawyer because we've waited.
• 42:59
  We've learned all this stuff from law school. We've waited for this opportunity to pontificate about all we know. But the agenda is really assessing whether or not you're a good fit with this client, assessing, is this client a good fit? Are they are they good for my firm? Am I a good fit for them?
• 43:17
  Do they have a problem that falls in my practice area? Are they somebody I wanna work with? Do they have the ability to pay? All of those things and then to walk them through. As you said, I love that piece about walking them through the buying decision.
• 43:29
  Yeah. Because they don't know. And if they're looking for you, you're the expert just like your doctor is the expert. Right? You're looking for them to guide you through what's the next step.
• 43:37
  What do we do next? Right? And that next step is not, here's what we're gonna do to solve your problem. The next step is hire us, we can help you solve your problem. You know?
• 43:45
  Like But
• 43:46
  Steve: but but think about it. Like, people people are busy. They've got families to take care of. They've got billable hours to manage. Some of them are running the actual business of the law firm.
• 43:56
  And you're out there meeting with people and winging it and and and and dragging things out with multiple follow ups and checking in and have you made a decision and they're not responding and you're going through this dance, it's not fun. And living in hope might have worked out for, you know, Andy Dufresne and Shawshank. Right? Everybody loves that movie. I love that movie too.
• 44:17
  You know, the hope and the work worked out for him, but it took a long time. We don't have that kind of time. Right? We're we need to get business, and we need to get business fast. And if you follow a process, a proven process of how to do networking more effectively, social media more effectively, walking buyers through buying decision, client loyalty, these are all learned processes.
• 44:37
  And lawyers are just totally unequipped out of law school and even at the law firm level to do it. So it's say Yeah.
• 44:44
  Davina: I'm sorry. Sorry to interrupt, but I wanna make sure I get this question in before we Sure. About out of time. And the question is about time. You talk about time management a lot.
• 44:52
  What do you say to, in our particular case, we're talking to women law firm owners, and women law firm owners often are have young children that they're caring for in addition to running and growing this business, trying to hire people, dealing with employees who are like children. They have spouses. They have all these sort of things going on that they are doing the mental work for in addition to taking care of their clients, and so many are still working in their business a lot. What do you say to them when they say, I don't have time for all of this, all this business development stuff, all this networking stuff? I I in theory, I'd love to do it, but I don't have time.
• 45:33
  I'd rather spend the time with my kids in the evening. I get two hours with them before they have to go to bed. Like, what kinds of things do you say to them with regard to time management?
• 45:43
  Steve: I don't know that I've worked with an attorney where we haven't had to figure out and work on time management together. I don't think I don't think it exists because we have to just like I mentioned, business development, networking, these are learned skills. These are these are things that you can that you can work on and improve. Time management is no different. There's books.
• 46:02
  There's videos. There's coaching. There's all different ways to to to learn the skills to improve your time management, and it's not easy. It's I'm the I am I will just admit, I am a feather on the wind. I'm a serial entrepreneur.
• 46:16
  I'm everywhere. And without reading Getting Things Done by David Allen, without working with coaches myself, without getting organized, I mean, I don't have a piece of paper around me right now. I don't. Everything is on here's a free promotion, Remarkable two. This is a pad I use for everything.
• 46:34
  I have no paper. Okay? So I'm an expert at time management because I have to be to be able to teach lawyers how to do it. It's a learned skill. How we delegate, how we how we take in information and decide what to do with it is something that without it, you're just winging it all day.
• 46:52
  And I can tell you you're gonna be run by your email. You're gonna be run by things that aren't a priority. You know, it's there's a there's a story of, if you don't mind do I have do have thirty seconds for this?
• 47:03
  Davina: Yeah. Thirty seconds for a story.
• 47:05
  Steve: Alright. I have thirty seconds for a story. And this is something that I've heard multiple different ways. If you take a container, like a like a a a a like, let's say, a pitcher, and you put rocks in it and you say, is that full? And people say, yeah.
• 47:17
  That's full of rocks. Say, well, no. And then you put pebbles in, and it goes between the rocks. And then say, is that full? Yes.
• 47:22
  It's not. Then you put sand in. Now is it full? Yes. No.
• 47:25
  It's not. Then we put water in. So what we're doing is we're focusing on all the water, sand, and pebbles. We're not focusing on the rocks. The rocks are the big things that move our lives forward, that get business, that get things done, that make the right hire.
• 47:39
  And time management in understanding priorities and and what the big picture things are in our lives allows us to spend more time with our family, allows us to have the balance that we're all longing for and we don't have. So it really does come down to how are we planning, executing, performing, and improving and following structure versus just winging it day after day after day after day, it's not a great that's not a great recipe for success.
• 48:07
  Davina: Right. Right. If anybody wants that, rock analogy, that is put the big rocks in first, and then Stephen Covey, seven habits of unexpected people. Grab that book. That is that has stayed with me for decades.
• 48:20
  So I love that. Love that. I'm always telling people put the big rocks in first. Speaking of books, where can we find yours? Your newest one, Legal Business Development Is It Rocket Science.
• 48:32
  Everybody's gonna wanna get a copy of that. Where can we find your books?
• 48:36
  Steve: Yeah. So they're all up on Amazon. Just if you type in Steve Fretzin or the name of the book into Amazon, you'll find the multiple books, and they're all available on Kindle as well. You can also go to my website fretzin.com, and there's a books tab if you wanna check out the books and read a little summary on each. But, certainly, Amazon's an easy way to go.
• 48:56
  Davina: Good. Good. Good. Tell us how else we can connect with you if we wanna reach out.
• 49:00
  Steve: Yeah. I mean, I'm you know, I've been teaching LinkedIn for twenty years, and so before people were even on it, and I I'm a big LinkedIn guy, so you can find me. Just type my name into LinkedIn, and you'll connect with me and find me there. I'm constantly posting, you know, my podcast, articles, content, my books, chapter by chapter, I've been giving away. So that's one way.
• 49:19
  And then, of course, just going back to my website, fretzin.com, and you can email me at steve@fretzin.com if you wanna talk directly about your law practice.
• 49:28
  Davina: Good. Good. Well, Steve, we're gonna have to have you back just to talk about LinkedIn because I think it needs its own episode. I know a lot of people now a lot of women attorneys I talk to don't like LinkedIn, but they feel like they need to be on it. And I do think there's a lot of dissatisfaction sort of happening in the Facebook world and Twitter world and all that.
• 49:47
  And so people are sort of looking for another spot, and it might be worth having a conversation just about that. But in the meantime, thanks so much for being here. I really enjoyed it. I know I've been throwing all kinds of questions at you, picking your brain today, but I really appreciate it because I think this is gonna be a super helpful episode to our audience, women law firm owners. So thank you.
• 50:08
  Steve: Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate you having me, and I I hope this was helpful. And, you know, let's let's keep connecting.
• 50:14
  Davina: Absolutely.
• 50:17
  Intro: We hope you've enjoyed today's episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. If you have, we invite you to leave us a review on your preferred podcast platform. The more five star reviews we have, the more women law firm owners will be able to positively impact. Your thoughts and opinions are so important to us. If you are a woman law firm owner who wants to scale your law firm to a million dollars or more in gross annual revenue and do it in a way that's sustainable and feels good to you, then we invite you to join us in the Wealthy Woman Lawyer League.
• 50:49
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• 51:30
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