Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #269 Maggie Dent on Raising Boys Part 1

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#269 Maggie Dent on Raising Boys Part 1 · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, if you
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  Speaker 1: can have three rules around your boys, try not to
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  Speaker 1: hurt yourself, try not to hurt anyone else, and try
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  Speaker 1: not to damage the world around you.
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  Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show.
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  Speaker 1: My mum and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Gooday, this stopped Justin Colson, the author of six books
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  Speaker 3: about raising happy families, and here with Kylie, my wife
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  Speaker 3: and co hosts Mum to our six Kids Kylie. Every
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  Speaker 3: now and again. I mean, I love Wednesdays because we
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  Speaker 3: always talk to somebody who's got great wisdom and great
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  Speaker 3: things to share with us. But today a really special
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  Speaker 3: day talking with somebody that has been talking parenting for
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  Speaker 3: so long and does it so well and is genuinely
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  Speaker 3: an Australian favorite when it comes to parenting exp but
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  Speaker 3: in fact probably worldwide. People know Maggie Dent. A couple
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  Speaker 3: of years ago, Maggie wrote book called Mothering Our Boys
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  Speaker 3: and you saw it on the bookshelf and you were like,
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  Speaker 3: what are you reading that for?
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  Speaker 2: Because we don't have any experience in that area.
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  Speaker 1: Do we?
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  Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, one day we'll have grandkids, and
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to have sons in law. I'm anticipating we've
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  Speaker 3: got one already. But that led to another book, which
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  Speaker 3: I think is just a wonderful, wonderful book for us
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  Speaker 3: to talk about from boys to men, helping our teen
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  Speaker 3: boys to grow into happy, healthy men. And Maggie joins
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  Speaker 3: us right now. Maggie, so good of you to be
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  Speaker 3: with us.
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  Speaker 1: Hi justin, Hi Kylie, thank you for inviting me up
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  Speaker 1: for a little chat.
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  Speaker 3: Maggie, your book is inspirational, and as somebody who only
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  Speaker 3: has six girls, it's a little bit confusing to me
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  Speaker 3: because every now and again I sit down to write
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  Speaker 3: stuff about boys, and I know what the research says.
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  Speaker 3: But what I loved about your book is, you know
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  Speaker 3: what the practice is. You've raised four boys to manhood
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  Speaker 3: and now you're looking after grandkids.
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  Speaker 1: I am, and also in amongst that fifteen years as
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  Speaker 1: a high school teacher, in five or six years of
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  Speaker 1: full time counseling troubled kids, and the boys would come
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  Speaker 1: to me, which was a little bit unusual. So you're
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  Speaker 1: absolutely the lived experience. But also I'm one of those
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  Speaker 1: girls who was kind of part boy, so I don't
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  Speaker 1: get girls.
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  Speaker 4: As well as I get boys.
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  Speaker 1: So it's interesting and I think it was a preparation
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  Speaker 1: for everything I do today. Even though I really like
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  Speaker 1: girls and I have granddaughters, I am fascinated by them.
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  Speaker 1: But as you say, it is something that's really been
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  Speaker 1: big in my life to help little boys and big
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  Speaker 1: boys be okay, because often they're really confused.
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  Speaker 3: I love the way you say that because I'm exactly
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  Speaker 3: the reverse. I like boys and I'm fascinated by them.
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  Speaker 3: But for me having six daughters, it's changed the way
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  Speaker 3: that I view girls and women, and I feel so
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  Speaker 3: much more confident talking in that sphere, which is why
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  Speaker 3: we've got you on. So I wanted to raise something
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  Speaker 3: with you, and that is that my impression. The more
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  Speaker 3: research that I do, the more I talk with families,
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  Speaker 3: my impression is that the world is just not very
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  Speaker 3: kind to boys at all, especially well at all ages.
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  Speaker 3: But right now I'm thinking of little boys and the way,
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  Speaker 3: like the ways preschools and especially big school it just
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  Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be nice to them.
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  Speaker 2: I was having a conversation with my sister in law
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  Speaker 2: the other day, Maggie, and I asked her how things
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  Speaker 2: were going with the new school they've just recently moved
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  Speaker 2: and she said, oh, look, you know, I think we've
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  Speaker 2: just come to understand that the school that we want
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  Speaker 2: and that we hope for our children is just not there.
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  Speaker 2: And she shared this experience with me. And so they've
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  Speaker 2: got two boys at school right now, and Rue is seven,
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  Speaker 2: and in his class there is a little boy who
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  Speaker 2: is just rambunctuous. He's got so much energy to burn,
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  Speaker 2: and his name goes up on the blackboard every day
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  Speaker 2: for bad behavior. And when my sister in law was
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  Speaker 2: talking to her son about it, she said, well, is
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  Speaker 2: he a bad boy? Does he her people? Is he unkind?
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  Speaker 2: And he said no, mum, he just can't sit still.
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  Speaker 2: And then she said, well what do they do when
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  Speaker 2: his name's been on the board all day? He said,
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  Speaker 2: they keep him in at lunchtime. And we were just
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  Speaker 2: talking about just how unfair this is. This kid who
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  Speaker 2: can't you sit still, is actually being punished by the
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  Speaker 2: very thing that he needs to get through the school day,
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  Speaker 2: and that's to allow his body to move and you know,
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  Speaker 2: kind of run and expend that energy. And it just
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  Speaker 2: is so disheartening that after everything that we know in
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  Speaker 2: all you know, the research that's been done, and over
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  Speaker 2: the years that schooling doesn't seem to have improved any
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  Speaker 2: bit better from even when I was at school.
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  Speaker 4: No, Carleene, you're absolutely right at his heartbreaking.
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  Speaker 1: There is this There is still what we call societal
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  Speaker 1: norms that actually think there's an inevitability to boys behaving badly,
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  Speaker 1: which is so wrong because we disrespect their need for
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  Speaker 1: movement and it is much higher and there's lots of
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  Speaker 1: reasons why that we can now show. We're also push
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  Speaker 1: formalized learning down, so we're expecting little boys to be
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  Speaker 1: able to sit longer cross their legs, but apparently their
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  Speaker 1: joints side as flexible as girls, so that can cause
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  Speaker 1: them pain. They also don't process verbal language as well.
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  Speaker 1: They're unable to identify emotions and express them without physicality.
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  Speaker 1: So what we do is punish them and shame them.
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  Speaker 1: And the whole traffic like system and red names on
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  Speaker 1: a board shames boys deeply.
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  Speaker 4: So what happens is we make them wrong.
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  Speaker 1: We don't make the fact that they're struggling to do something,
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  Speaker 1: we don't work with them to help them manage that
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  Speaker 1: need for movement.
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  Speaker 4: We make them wrong.
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  Speaker 1: And what that does is berries a rage that will
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  Speaker 1: come up sadly as they get into puberty when the
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  Speaker 1: limbic brain grows, so that's why we often have really
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  Speaker 1: angry boys.
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  Speaker 3: Later after the break, Maggie, I want to talk more
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  Speaker 3: about the culture of how we deal with boys and
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  Speaker 3: ways that we can all improve our understanding of how
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  Speaker 3: they think and feel.
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  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Famili's podcat for a happier family.
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  Speaker 2: Try a Happy Families membership, because a happy fan family
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  Speaker 2: doesn't just happen.
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  Speaker 3: Details at Happyfamilies dot com dot au.
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  Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're
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  Speaker 2: talking with Maggie Dant, mother to four boys. Maggie, do
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  Speaker 2: you see the culture around our boys as being unkind?
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  Speaker 4: Oh? Golly, I you know.
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  Speaker 1: Every now and then I'll work in the center that's
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  Speaker 1: actually been to some of my work, and they've got
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  Speaker 1: this different approach so that the boys that Niek can't
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  Speaker 1: sit still on the map more than two or three
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  Speaker 1: minutes are towards the back and they're okay to jiggle
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  Speaker 1: on a chair where they're able to jiggle their foot
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  Speaker 1: without getting busted for it, and they're able to concentrate more,
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  Speaker 1: so they're able to participate more. And what they desperately
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  Speaker 1: need the same as every girl, is a sense that
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  Speaker 1: I belong and people care for me. So when we
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  Speaker 1: actually have evidence that shows that we speak more harshly
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  Speaker 1: to boys than girls, so what's that telling sensitive little boys?
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  Speaker 1: And all of them are sensitive. Even though that rambunctis
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  Speaker 1: one looks like he's tough, he's not. The whole myth
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  Speaker 1: is boys are not tough a natural fat girls are
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  Speaker 1: emotionally way tougher. They do have a physicality, So.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you for that.
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  Speaker 1: But that is one of the reasons that I started
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  Speaker 1: jumping up and down, because we have to look at
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  Speaker 1: the way that we're starting to raise little boys into
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  Speaker 1: a system that doesn't necessarily serve them until a lot later,
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  Speaker 1: around eight to nine, they can sit a little bit better.
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  Speaker 3: Maggie, I want to pick up on something that you've
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  Speaker 3: just highlighted. You talked about the research around the different
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  Speaker 3: expectations the way we speak to boys versus girls, and
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  Speaker 3: that data from what I've seen from a developmental psychology
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  Speaker 3: point of view, that that's from the earliest ages. We're
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  Speaker 3: much more likely to google and gaga over a six
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  Speaker 3: month old girl than we are a boy. And by
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  Speaker 3: the time they're twelve months and eighteen months and twenty
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  Speaker 3: four months, all of a sudden, it's like, stop crying,
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  Speaker 3: cut that out, stop acting like a girl. Yes, as
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  Speaker 3: you would know, I mean you've written about it. The
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  Speaker 3: boys at school are much more likely to get in trouble.
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  Speaker 3: They're much more likely to be put on attention, They're
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  Speaker 3: much more likely to be suspended and expelled. They just
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  Speaker 3: get in trouble more than girls. And it's almost like
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  Speaker 3: we've feminized our education system. And as the kids get older,
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  Speaker 3: we see girls doing better at school, which is wonderful.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's great. It's great that girls are doing well.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that they shouldn't do well, but girls
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  Speaker 3: are graduating with higher grades consistently, girls are getting into
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  Speaker 3: the better courses.
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  Speaker 4: Now.
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  Speaker 3: Girls are really really doing well. And it's a wonderful
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  Speaker 3: moment for girls to shine. But it shouldn't be at
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  Speaker 3: the expensive boys. Can we lift everybody rather than saying, well,
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  Speaker 3: we've got to do this for girls, and therefore we've
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  Speaker 3: got to put the boys down. What do we do
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  Speaker 3: as parents, like if there's a take home message in
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  Speaker 3: terms of the way we talk to our boys, the
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  Speaker 3: way we educate our boys, the way we raise these
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  Speaker 3: little kids. Let's say, up to about the age of
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  Speaker 3: ten or twelve, what would you say the fundamentals that
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  Speaker 3: parents need to know about boys as opposed to girls.
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  Speaker 1: Look, I think the fundamental needs of them is exactly
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  Speaker 1: the same, justin so you know, we know that strong
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  Speaker 1: attachment and relationship. So really what helps all children thrive.
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  Speaker 1: So you've got to work out how you're building that.
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  Speaker 1: Even though you have a boy that's more impulsive, that
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  Speaker 1: wants to jump off the garage roof and you can't
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  Speaker 1: believe you did it because he didn't think about it.
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  Speaker 1: We don't make them wrong in those moments. But what
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  Speaker 1: we do is I just say, if you can have
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  Speaker 1: three rules around your boys that you have either stuck
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  Speaker 1: on the fridge, try not to hurt yourself, try not
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  Speaker 1: to hurt anyone else, and try not to damage the
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  Speaker 1: world around you. So when they do those things, we
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  Speaker 1: come back to them. Now you're not wrong. It was
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  Speaker 1: the choice you made. And so the emotional coaching is
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  Speaker 1: really important from a tender place, but you can't do
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  Speaker 1: it in the heat of the moment because I can't
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  Speaker 1: hear you. They're very defensive, very early, so you probably
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  Speaker 1: leave it twenty four hours, probably bathtime, little chat as
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  Speaker 1: you go into bed. Remember when you jumped on your
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  Speaker 1: brother from the top bunk and Mommy got a bit upset,
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  Speaker 1: and I need you to know why that wasn't a
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  Speaker 1: good choice. So it's a slightly different way of doing it.
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  Speaker 1: But the thing is, can you be the tender, loving
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  Speaker 1: parent following all these moments? Can you love them when
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  Speaker 1: they get that message home from school? Can you love
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  Speaker 1: them if they've run in to say goodbye to their
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  Speaker 1: friend and punch them in their head instead of giving
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  Speaker 1: them a high five because they in the moment, they
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  Speaker 1: just forgot what they were doing.
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  Speaker 4: Can you really see.
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  Speaker 1: That the world through their eyes and help them understand
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  Speaker 1: that there are other ways of being, that they're not wrong,
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  Speaker 1: that sometimes they make choices that aren't really could.
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  Speaker 3: I think there's a reason they call you the Queen
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  Speaker 3: of common Sense. I love those three rules. Try not
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  Speaker 3: to hurt yourself, try not to hurt anyone else. And
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  Speaker 3: what was it about the world?
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  Speaker 4: What was that they not to damage the world around you?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so good, Maggie.
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  Speaker 2: This has just been such an amazing conversation, and that's
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  Speaker 2: saying something considering I'm a mum of all girl so
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  Speaker 2: this actually really doesn't have a huge impact on me.
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  Speaker 2: But I would love it if you would be willing
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  Speaker 2: to come back and chat to us again tomorrow.
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  Speaker 3: That's kind of breaking the rules. We don't normally do that.
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  Speaker 3: You know what, Let's do it, Maggie.
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  Speaker 1: You cool with that?
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  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, you guys.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, because what I really want to talk about as
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  Speaker 3: well is just this national conversation that's going on right
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  Speaker 3: now about consent and respect. It's front and center, especially
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  Speaker 3: for our boys right now.
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  Speaker 4: It's not just schools that need to do talk about consent.
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  Speaker 1: It is every level of us, and we must start
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  Speaker 1: much earlier, so you can't just expect the health teacher
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  Speaker 1: to just drop it in.
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  Speaker 3: Well, we really really hope that you've enjoyed today's conversation,
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  Speaker 3: looking forward to talking with Maggie Simore tomorrow. The Happy
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  Speaker 3: Families podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media.
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  Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. Want to make your
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  Speaker 3: family happier? We've got so many resources for you. You
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: can find them all on our Facebook page at doctor
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: Justin Colson's Happy Families, or at our website, happyfamilies dot
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  Speaker 3: com dot au