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Why Do I Keep Letting This Go? · The Pause Before You Lead

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I find this with leaders, like they can articulate really well what they want the change to be.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then we get to the so what's the conversation you need to have?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's at that point that things start to get a little less clear.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because in an effort to maintain the relationship, in an effort to make that person feel still feel good about their work, the communication softens almost to the point that it doesn't seem clear what's being asked.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of talked around.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Pause Before You Lead.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Alicia Saint, and I'm Heather Haig.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we've both led teams inside large organizations.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And over the past decade, we've coached and partnered with hundreds of leaders and teams navigating complexity.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen, felt, heard, and supported leaders through the challenging and sometimes really messy parts of leadership.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And while a lot has changed, many of the patterns that quietly take leaders off track just keep showing up.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: We work with leaders who don't want to lose momentum, but who know that clearer thinking is what makes momentum sustainable.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is for leaders who are moving fast, leading teams, and making decisions under constant pressure.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And leaders who know there's a better way to think, lead, and respond in those moments.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Each week, we bring you real conversations drawn from our work with leaders and teams.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Where speed matters, stakes are high, and the quality of your thinking shapes everything.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So in each episode, we're going to pause just long enough to think more clearly, to see what's really going on, make better decisions, and build high-value teams.
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  SPEAKER_02: Whether you're listening before the day takes over, on your way to work, or in the middle of a full day, this is your pause without losing momentum.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: So before we begin, take a breath and join us.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Alicia Saints.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this week, our exploration or our question for the week to pause on is why do I keep letting this go?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what we mean by this question is as Heather and I were chatting about how many of our clients, our leaders come to us struggling with this question.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So struggling with how do I encourage accountability, make this, you know, alive for my team, for me, and also still be the kind leader, the compassionate leader, the empathetic leader.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And often, right, the clients feel like they're in opposition.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Accountability sits over here, and this compassionate, empathetic, kind leader that I want to be sits way over here, and there's a huge gap in between.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: We thought this would be an interesting question for us to explore this week.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I keep letting this go?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, Heather, you've got a recent example that we were chatting about.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So why don't you share it here with our audience?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks, Alicia.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's an interesting challenge.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in this particular leader's case, what they were facing with one of their team members was a frustration around time in office.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: And in particular, with intact teams, and in this situation, the leader was dealing with inconsistencies across the team.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: So certain people that were in office every day, and then other people that were in office a few days a week, and really struggling with trying to get the whole team to the same place together.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you could certainly hear the frustration in this leader's voice because there was in on some level assumptions that, well, when you're watching other members of the team be in the office five days a week, why wouldn't everyone just be in the office five days a week?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: This should be obvious.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: People should just see that we are better collectively as a team when we're all present in the same space than when some of us are operating remotely and some of us are operating in office.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: So there was certainly this piece to fundamentally to get at the how clear am I being in communicating what I need from my team members, what I'm looking for in terms of behavioral change.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something that I find when we start to sort of unpack what's what's happening.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I notice this in myself too.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: I can be really clear in my mind what I want that other person to be doing.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I find this with leaders, like they can articulate really well what they want the change to be.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then we get to these, so what's the conversation you need to have?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's at that point that things start to get a little less clear.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because in an effort to maintain the relationship, in an effort to make that person feel still feel good about their work, the communication softens almost to the point that it doesn't seem clear what's being asked.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of talked around.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: And in this case, the leader, when I said to walk me through the conversation and they played back the scene, we could both see, wow, like I'm not sure I actually was specific about the change that I'm wanting to see.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think I might be, you know, dancing around it a bit or hoping that you'll infer from what I'm saying that I'm asking you to be in the office five days a week without actually saying, Hey, Alicia, I need you to be in the office five days a week.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't for a lack of desire.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was just finding the language that didn't feel like accusatory or attacking was part of the struggle.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I see that in a number of leaders that I've worked with, but this one's just stood out.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: What shows up for you as I'm as I'm sharing this story?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and recalling the many, many coaching conversations I've also had with leaders around this.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what strikes me is the power of language.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so accountability, you know, holding someone accountable, and even just when you said, I need you to be in the office five days a week.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's very clear.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: But even for some leaders to say, I need you to is really tough.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm just struck by that because is it I need you to be in the office five days a week, or the business or the work or the team?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: When I work with leaders, I sometimes just try and explore with them.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And some leaders are okay with being very clear.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I need you to.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And some leaders really struggle with that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it feels really direct, it feels very me-centered.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so for those leaders, it's like, okay, so how else could you, to your point, hold people accountable in a way that's clear, concise, you know, in five words or less, right?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that's what's that's what's bringing up for me is the power of language and finding the right way to communicate it for you.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, even the question we pose at the start of this conversation, why do I keep letting this go?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think what's interesting is I don't know that leaders necessarily see themselves as letting it go.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: What they're feeling like is it keeps not changing, and I maybe I'm not doing anything differently about it.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's such a frustration that that's being held internally that they're having to manage in addition to the things that they're working with with the team, right?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got this other variable that's beneath the surface that's like, I don't, I don't want my team to think I'm angry at them.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna disturb the unity of my team by expressing how frustrated I am.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: But you've got to imagine that frustration that we're carrying.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: I remember a leader saying this to me in a certain project that I was working on.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: The leader actually said, Heather, you're not saying anything, but it's very clear you're frustrated with the dynamic of what's happening.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember hearing that and thinking, oh man, I thought I was masking that so well.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And see that with the with leaders with their teams, right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's this frustration that the change isn't happening.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: They're not addressing it as directly as they could to be clear about the ask in order to hold someone accountable.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yet then they're operating with this undercurrent of frustration that everyone on the team feels as some form of tension.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: You might not be able to go, like, wow, Bob is really frustrated or Sally is really having a hard time today.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: But you'll feel the undercurrent of something not quite right.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like it doesn't just impact the person that needs to receive the feedback, but it actually impacts the whole team because of this undercurrent.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: I remember just him him telling me that my face expressed the frustration I was feeling, even though verbally I wasn't articulating it and being so like, wow, okay, that's good information.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't hold myself accountable.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm responsible for how I'm operating too.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just something that I feel like is like this additional layer to the to the challenge.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think, yeah, that's a great point.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think again, that's where it comes back to working with like the leader knowing themselves so that they can say it in a way, noticing the uncomfortableness, but saying it in a way that they can feel authentic in it, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because to your point, if if you're not saying it in a way that feels authentic to you, they're probably gonna be able to see three through it.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that accountability, I've had a number of leaders, you know, say this to me is clarity is kindness.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, accountability is being clear.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's being so now I know what's expected of me.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now if I choose not to follow that, okay, I'm making a choice in that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where the leader can get curious and say, I notice you're choosing not to be in the office for five days a week.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't have that conversation, though, until you've provided clear feedback, right?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: You can't then express frustration around a lack of change in behavior when it hasn't been explicitly said at the outset.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I I love what you were saying there about language, because it doesn't need to be an I need you to.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: It also can be very focused on the behavior and not the person.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of times leaders, and myself included, have felt like this person's gonna feel defensive.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: This person's going to, you know, respond as if I'm attacking them.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it isn't just the changing the I need part of that language, but it's here's what the team is requiring from a behavioral change, not a you're not in the office enough, which feels very accusatory to in order for our team to perform the best way we can, you know, and collaborate and innovate together, the team needs all of us to be present.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's a shift from the you're not to a here's what we're needing and why.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, it's sometimes for leaders, it's interesting, it can go either way, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes for leaders, showing the sort of compassionate side can come easy.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's holding them accountable is a struggle.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's a reverse, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you're impact, you can hold people accountable because it's very clear to you like that behavior is not delivering the results.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's get on the same page.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you need both.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they work together.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: One without the other, doesn't won't work long term.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Might work in the mediate, like you know what I mean?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like more the accountability piece, like you just need to do this.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guess could work short term, but sustainable, not sure people just constantly want to be told what to do.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I really like that you're bringing in the style, the way we operate as leaders, being, because an impact person to an impact person will actually have no friction in that, right?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: A person will be direct, the other person will receive directly, and there'll be no, there'll be no feelings necessarily exchanged in that.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's I appreciate your directness, I appreciate you receiving my directness, let's move forward.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: But if that impact leader is operating with people that are connection or clarity much more, much more the human side, much more of the heart connected side and may receive it as a much more personal reflection of not being good enough or however that information is received.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's knowing who you're talking to becomes really important as well.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, how am how am I wired to give information?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that insight internally that says, I'm not comfortable with this because I don't like being direct.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's an attack.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's the flip side, which is what is the recipient's style of communication and what's going to work best for them to receive this in the most useful way.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't always need to feel good getting constructive feedback, but it all needs to not feel like it's not safe for me to work here.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So like I think that that's where the compassion doesn't soften the communication.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: It gives it in a in a caring about the person way and this needing to change.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's bringing up a memory of of myself being connection, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Heart led, people led first, and giving some feedback to someone who was impact.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember at the end of our conversation, I was asking this person to to do something different, to to change their behavior.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I remember at the end of the conversation, the person looked at me and said, I don't understand what you're talking about.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: What is it you want?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, What?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all of a sudden, uh now she this person is giving me the opportunity to actually be more direct and step into more impact, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it, what is the result you are looking for?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And what is it that I'm doing now that is getting in the way of that?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Just as you were talking about that, I just I felt that feeling in my body because all of a sudden it was like I had to step into it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if I had, I love hindsight, if I had better awareness of my style and thinking about the other person's style, I because I did prepare for that conversation, I knew it was gonna be a challenging conversation and I prepared for it, but I did not prepare for it in the way that you just suggested, which is how does this other person like to receive feedback?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was so caught up in myself, how I was gonna feel comfortable about delivering it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: What a what an insightful piece to bring to the forefront, Alicia.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: As you, as you were sharing that story, that experience with an impact person, I could see what's at the essence of this, right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: And just to try and invite like us to get more clear about what it actually is we're trying to communicate.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: What do we, what are we needing from that other person?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we stop letting it go, we stop accepting, and we just say this is too hard.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I've tried to give feedback and it's not working.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, what's the essence of what do I need this person to hear?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: The over-explaining sometimes by the end, you're like, I don't, I don't know what the message you're wanting me to take away from all of this is.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: How can I um foster accountability within myself and with the other person, not just the other person?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Am I communicating clearly?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because clear is kind.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Clear is compassion and accountability, well everybody needs it.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: We all do.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody needs it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I think we we've offered a couple of really powerful pauses for people to think about.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And boy, do I ever wish I could have a do-over.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: The do-overs.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: I like to think about Marshall Goldsmith's focus of feed forward, right?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what can I do differently next time?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we're always growing and evolving.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So a few a few considerations to take away this week in your own reflection.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to pause before you lead.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining the pause before you lead.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation sparked something for you, share it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because more leaders need space to think clearly in the moments that matter.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Follow or subscribe so you don't miss miss an episode and let us know what's on your mind.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: We shape these conversations for you.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Before you move on to what's next, pause just for a moment.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And notice what might change if you led from here.