Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Matt Odell & Ben Gagnon | "Then they fight you" | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Matt Odell & Ben Gagnon | "Then they fight you" | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:01
Yo, welcome to another episode of something Bitcoin.
0:03
IRL, very special show. Had this planned out for a
0:08
couple weeks now, earlier on today, I was like, it's just
0:12
gonna be me and Matt and then that showed up.
0:15
So, back to the original show, it's going to be Matt, the
0:19
legendary mad Odell and the legendary Ben gonyo I got the
0:23
last name, right? Anyways, before we start the
0:25
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0:51
introduce our guests Odell. How you doing Matt?
0:55
What's up, what's up? What's up?
0:56
Happy to be here, happy to have you, man.
1:00
Let me ask you something out of one through ten.
1:04
How humble you feeling right now, which one is the most
1:09
humble? I'm the most.
1:12
I'm the most humble is so, that's impossible.
1:14
No, but is 10 the most humble, or is one of the most.
1:16
Humble one is, the least one, is least at da.
1:21
That's kind of like the mempool debate.
1:23
You're okay. So I'm a 6.
1:26
I don't know which way, but I like that.
1:29
Okay. All right.
1:30
Okay, good answer. And Ben gonyo.
1:33
I just learned how to pronounce his last name.
1:36
Ben, how you doing for anyone? That doesn't know.
1:39
Ben, is the badass in charge? He's the chief mining officer at
1:42
B Farms. I doing been doing good.
1:45
Are you guys happy to have? You happy to have you guys.
1:49
So the reason, you know, I wanted to have this is because
1:54
you know and I put this in the title of Love today's video, we
1:59
are definitely entering to them. They fight you stage, it's
2:02
become incredibly obvious. You know, whether that's the
2:05
White House report, the the digital assets framework.
2:09
The regulatory attacks. Also been talking to talking to
2:13
people in the background. And they also are saying, you
2:16
know, this is serious. So I wanted to get both you guys
2:19
together. Also want to talk about the, you
2:22
know, the you could say the mining Central is at the hash
2:25
rate centralization. Between the United States and
2:28
that how that could potentially become a vulnerability that
2:31
specifically the US Treasury specifically.
2:35
Also, the office of foreign assets control could potentially
2:39
exploit could potentially, you know, use to their advantage.
2:45
So, let's start off with that. Let's start off with Ben.
2:48
Then, what are your thoughts on? What are your thoughts on?
2:52
Let's, let's start off with the digital assets framework, right?
2:54
What are your thoughts on the White House report?
2:56
Nick Carter did a great job at a debunking, a lot of that BS.
3:00
So from your perspective, you know, working at a public Mining
3:05
Company. What are your thoughts on it?
3:08
Well, I, you know, I don't think there's anything surprising,
3:11
right? It's the same arguments, the
3:14
same ideas. It's the same different groups
3:17
like Digi. Connoisseur cited over and over,
3:20
and over again. So nothing new or nothing
3:22
groundbreaking obviously make Carter's going to provide, you
3:26
know, one of the best takedowns every single time.
3:30
But the reality is I think that for years, we have kind of hid
3:34
under the table as an industry. We haven't really wanted to go
3:38
out and Get any more attention, we wanted to remain in the
3:41
shadows and just operate our business and just not running
3:44
attention. And with the, I think with the
3:48
emergence of the publicly traded miners, especially in all this
3:51
attention on these, large-scale industrial operations are
3:54
raising so much cash that is no longer really an option for for
4:00
a lot of companies. And so I think, you know, we're
4:03
going out there, I think a lot of other companies are growing
4:05
out there and I and when you do that, what show?
4:08
Shocks me is just how little experience actually have with
4:11
Bitcoin mining or industry will see a time when we've been
4:15
speaking both with Regulators in Canada and United States, you
4:19
know, they've never even seen a photo of Bitcoin mining.
4:21
So to talk about actually going in there and creating
4:28
legislation, that's going to regulate an industry, you've
4:31
never even seen a photo of that industrial activity taking
4:35
place, and just think it shows exactly where we're at right
4:38
now. Which makes me, which makes me
4:40
very bullish. Like, all of this is based off
4:42
of nothing and we've got a great story as an industry.
4:47
So, you know, obviously Odell and I are going to take a more,
4:52
you know, they're trying to take our shit type of approach.
4:57
So, Matt, what was your take? I've never asked you.
5:00
This actually, what was your take on the digital assets
5:03
framework by the White House? I think sailor at one point.
5:08
Not his words. Not mine.
5:11
Literally called it. Quote propaganda.
5:14
So what are your thoughts on it? I mean I would agree with Ben
5:19
that it showed a gross misunderstanding of how Bitcoin
5:26
mining works and how it functions as an industry and how
5:30
it will interact with the energy Grid in America.
5:37
That part is not surprising. I mean we've seen countless
5:40
times regulators and policymakers be completely
5:46
detached. Just from reality, in the things
5:49
they try and do regardless of Industry.
5:52
You know, we noticed that in Bitcoin more as bitcoiners
5:55
because we understand it really well.
5:59
I forget what the there's like a there's a law.
6:04
I don't know where like if you understand the topic and you
6:07
read journalism, based on that topic you see the gross mistakes
6:12
that are made and I would say this similar thing happens with
6:15
policymakers. Now, the concern to me stems
6:20
from a much more core base of concern, rather than that actual
6:24
report and that is the US government is known to regulate
6:29
things that they don't understand.
6:31
They've known to act and short-sighted ways that hurt our
6:35
country and hurt. You know, average citizens, and
6:39
they've been known to specifically go very burdensome
6:44
in terms of financial regulation.
6:46
And so the fact that government was even paying attention enough
6:53
to write this report to me is like, it's a, it's a first step
6:57
in a bad Direction. And but but maybe it didn't even
7:03
like it to me. It's it didn't really change
7:07
much. It's what was to be expected.
7:09
If anything that report is was released later than I would have
7:14
expected. Like I would have expected the
7:15
attention to Come sooner rather than when it did.
7:19
Yeah. I mean so you know, in the way
7:22
that I'm seeing it and again, it's perhaps because the way
7:26
that I'm I'm looking at this, this Dent is definitely the then
7:31
they fight you staged the way that I'm looking at it and to
7:35
kind of go back to what you were saying, Odell are these truly
7:39
mistakes or is this malicious and the reason I'm saying that
7:43
is because, you know, Nick Carter did great.
7:46
Write the Horses that this report specifically used where
7:50
sources that have been debunked, they weren't academic sources
7:55
and it's almost as and it's not like they didn't talk to the
7:58
Bitcoin policy Institute. It's not like they weren't
8:00
talking to coin center before this was released and they
8:04
released it anyways and that leads me to believe.
8:07
This is malicious. I know it's going to be hard for
8:10
been to touch on that but Matt, what are your thoughts on that?
8:13
Specifically, I would lean two more in competence than
8:17
mal-intent. There's definitely some
8:20
maliciousness in there, did I? I'm pretty much reading it as
8:25
incompetence and and been, I'll change the question, what what
8:35
could the industry do as a whole to make sure that this
8:39
incompetence does not happen in the future?
8:42
At least regulators and policymakers are more.
8:46
Well, Formed so that they don't, you know, destroy you know, a
8:50
potential upcoming industry. Yeah, I think the big thing is
8:56
that you actually go out there and we engage and we educate
8:59
people. There is a huge big industry out
9:04
here and it's full of some of the most intelligent most
9:07
dedicated, most passionate individuals and that stuff
9:11
really shines through when you go and have one of these people
9:14
go and give you a tour of their He's, you know, so it's going to
9:18
be about engaging with Regulators policymakers State
9:23
reps. You know, those sorts of things
9:27
and actually showing what we're actually doing out here, showing
9:29
the good value showing the economic contribution that's
9:33
happening and the local communities that we're operating
9:36
in and really just proving our case because everything is based
9:42
on a bunch of crummy data. We have all of the right
9:48
information and all of the, you know, the good facts on our
9:51
side, really. It's just about us going out
9:54
there and actually making sure that they're saying absolutely.
9:57
So let's pivot a little bit towards specifically.
10:01
You know the after the CCP specifically the Chinese
10:05
Communist party Band. Bitcoin mining and Mainland
10:08
China, right. We saw the mass hash migration
10:12
then we saw that really over the last 23 years Because of that,
10:17
you know, there's a there's a there's a good amount of hash
10:20
rate in the United States now and I think any time regardless
10:25
of the country, anytime there's an over, you know, this is what
10:31
sucked about the mining centralization in China as well.
10:34
Write it didn't see. It didn't sit well with me and
10:38
it looks like history is now repeating itself and potentially
10:43
that could be a vulnerability. I know that stratum V2 changes
10:48
the Dynamics of that a little bit.
10:50
But Odell, what are your thoughts on on that?
10:53
I know you've been vocal about this on Twitter.
10:57
Yeah, I mean so you nailed it. When it comes down to, you don't
11:01
want to have, you really don't want one entity one.
11:06
Geographic location. One jurisdiction to dominate
11:10
hash rate. You want it to be as distribute
11:12
as possible. Right Now, in America we're at
11:16
about, it's hard to tell for sure, but I mean, my guess would
11:19
be around like 35% to 40% of hatches in America Foundry
11:25
alone. The largest mining pool in the
11:27
In the world is right now is that like 28% of hash found
11:34
juice customers are mostly large mining operators publicly traded
11:40
mining operators, you know, these big Warehouse types of
11:43
mining operations and they kyc all, they're all of their
11:49
operators. So everyone that uses that pool
11:51
is known to them and presumably could get pressured in directly
11:55
by the government. So the CERN is the concern is,
11:59
okay. It can go both ways, right?
12:02
Having a large amount of hash, in America, means we have a
12:05
large amount of industry in America.
12:07
It means we have a large amount of money behind Bitcoin mining.
12:10
It means that there's all these different programs that are
12:14
working to improve our energy generation and transmission grid
12:18
system in America behind Bitcoin mining.
12:22
So if they work together, if that industry works together,
12:25
maybe they will have a larger voice in Washington.
12:27
With policy. Now, the concern is to me is
12:30
similar to the concern, we saw with exchanges, which is this
12:34
idea that You know, maybe the US government doesn't pull out bad
12:40
mining, I don't expect them to I don't expect a federal
12:44
proof-of-work band for instance, where they just straight up
12:47
banned industry. And if they did it actually it
12:50
would suck. It would suck for any Bitcoin
12:52
miners in America, it would suck for companies based here,
12:56
respect for investors based here.
12:58
Some of them would move some of them would survive, some would
13:01
sell their hash other places but Bitcoin would be fine if there
13:05
was a full-on ban the bigger risk.
13:07
Risk is if there's some kind of censorship regime that gets
13:11
pushed onto minors and minors, tend and minors choose to go
13:17
along with that to essentially save their business in the short
13:20
term rather than thinking, about the long-term repercussions of
13:24
having a large amount of hash actively censoring transactions.
13:29
Ben, do you want to chime in on that?
13:31
Does it worry you at all, you know, particularly from your
13:34
situation, from your Vantage Point, does it worry you about
13:41
this Hatchery concentration in the United States and if I'm not
13:46
mistaken, I know that bit Farms, you guys are branching out, you
13:50
guys are no longer also in the united.
13:52
I know you guys are mainly in Canada, but you guys are also
13:54
looking in places that are not in North America.
13:57
Is that correct? Yeah, we have 10 different farms
14:01
and four countries right now. So we're spread out across the
14:05
world but you know when it comes to decentralization happens in
14:10
lots of different ways. You know, physically I think
14:14
moving out of China especially with capabilities that the
14:19
Chinese have with regards to controlling, you know, internal
14:23
internet traffic in China. It's it Seems like a much bigger
14:31
Improvement to be outside of China and into the United
14:33
States. And it's not as if that we have
14:36
such a huge, you know, centralization within North
14:40
America. Sure.
14:41
There's been a huge increase in North America, that is taking
14:44
them apart in all sorts of different states.
14:48
You'll see that number four, how many applications are out in
14:52
Texas but the actual real demand in Texas is probably just shy of
14:57
a gigawatt. And so you're looking at, you
15:00
know, Texas has a decent amount, Washington State, Houston amount
15:07
Georgia, the Carolinas Quebec, New York, all these areas, you
15:14
know, that have decent amount of hash rate.
15:16
They're all subject to different rules, they're all subject to
15:19
different, you know, bodies of enforcement, agents, and
15:22
everything else. So there's all it all sorts of
15:26
different ways to even spread it out, even with it with in North
15:30
America. And personally I think the I
15:35
think the institutionalization of Bitcoin mining kind of has to
15:38
happen. You don't get a large product
15:41
like aluminum without having large publicly traded mining
15:45
companies, who are you know active in the producing of that
15:50
good. The storage of that good, the
15:51
transacting of that good. Like it just doesn't happen for
15:56
these industries to get large. And institutional scale you have
16:00
to have institutional grade minors and in order to have the
16:03
capital at those levels, like you go public and you comply
16:07
with those rules. So that's that's a natural
16:10
evolution of this industry. And it's bullish for this
16:14
industry rolling forward because you're going to need that level
16:18
of security to get the goldmans of the world.
16:21
In Bitcoin, you don't you're not going to get it, you know, if
16:25
you just have security that's completely reliant on.
16:28
Garages, you know, distributed around the world here, they're
16:31
not going to buy into that. Yeah, and I agree with that but
16:35
the the Crux of the issue is, is the treasury going to go along
16:40
with that because, you know, as we saw with the recent move by
16:44
the treasury for the first time, sanctioning not individual, not
16:49
in the government but open source software, I would like to
16:51
make the argument that they did that as a precedent or the
16:55
future and it was Odell, amazing tweeted.
16:58
Been using it. The last three, four weeks, a
17:01
blog post resulted in a theater, the majority of etherium
17:04
validators actively censoring for the US government, right?
17:08
So you know, the treasures was not going to go gently into that
17:11
good night. They stand the most to lose.
17:13
So kind of combining what you were just saying and I'm going
17:17
to pass this to Adele and get his thoughts.
17:19
I don't want to ask this question to been so many passes
17:23
to Adele Adele. Is that possible?
17:27
Is that possible? Is it possible to have this
17:29
giant? Public mining sector, but also
17:35
staying in the good, graces of governments of specifically the
17:39
US government well to be clear, you know, this is not It's not a
17:47
short-term risk. I'm concerned about it's not
17:52
it's not something that I think is super you know, necessary
17:55
super likely to happen or a major threat, it's something to
17:59
pay attention to, right? And it's a, it's a trend to pay
18:02
attention to the concern, even at 35 to 40% of the, hash is,
18:10
obviously way less than if that hash increases, and it's not
18:13
necessary just in US jurisdiction.
18:16
It's basically I would go as far as saying us and allies large
18:20
operations, publicly traded companies on grid operations,
18:26
with big warehouses, you know the type operations that are
18:29
easier to enforce this type of these types of rules, right?
18:37
The amount of hash that is controlled by those in specific
18:41
jurisdictions that are all working together.
18:43
That often Implement heavy-handed Financial
18:47
regulation. You don't want a high number of
18:50
that as long as we have minors as a decent amount of hash of
18:55
minors that are not following those rules, they will mine.
19:00
The transactions if the censoring miners aren't mining
19:03
those transactions. Go ahead.
19:07
Sorry. Yeah.
19:08
So so I 100% agree with Ben. That the trend is going to You
19:18
know, industrialize mining operations, massive, massive
19:21
mining operations. We see that happening 100.
19:24
You know, that makes sense to me.
19:26
I do think that there is at a certain level, there's
19:30
diseconomies of scale that we haven't quite hit yet that we're
19:33
that, maybe we're starting to feel, which is this, you know,
19:38
how much cheap energy you can get out of source, right?
19:41
It's, you know, energy is not energy at different sources is
19:46
finite, you can only get so much.
19:47
It's cheap energy at certain sources and then on top of that
19:51
when you start talking about waste heat, when you talk to
19:54
charge start talking about recapturing waste heat,
19:57
particularly that is easier to do on smaller scales than a
20:01
large-scale. So I do think there's some
20:03
elements of diseconomies of scale that will help us in the
20:06
medium to long term. Now, the question really is Will
20:10
treasury tell large miners that they can't include certain
20:14
transactions and their blocks and I think that's probably
20:17
likely I think that is probably going to happen.
20:19
I think I think those a lot of miners will comply with that and
20:24
they just won't include those transactions in their blocks but
20:26
other miners will. But I think it's also prudent
20:30
for people in this industry that are operating these large
20:35
businesses to push back to a degree, right?
20:40
And to also insulate themselves from the kind of pressure that
20:44
can happen. So we see a lot of times in
20:46
online businesses. Reduce the amount of data that
20:49
you have on your, on your, on your users.
20:52
So that if you are compelled to hand over things, you don't have
20:56
as much data to and over. You can only hand over what you
20:58
have your reduces your liability.
21:01
What we're seeing with Foundry? For instance, found read largest
21:04
mining pool and the world is their sponsoring stratum V2
21:10
development. And I personally believe that
21:13
one of the reasons that they're funding striving to be to
21:15
development is because They want to be in a position where
21:19
they're not actually constructing the blocks as a,
21:22
the pool operator obviously. So right now, how we have it set
21:25
up is the pool operator is is deciding which transactions get
21:30
put in a block and then the miners are just following along
21:33
with that. Now, if the miners in that pool
21:35
don't like What's Happening by the pool operator, they have a
21:39
soft exit, soft veto. They can leave and go to another
21:42
pool, but they don't get to actively be part of that process
21:45
of which blocks go into that pool.
21:47
So right. Now, the most obvious, like
21:49
easiest method would be to essentially like knock on
21:52
foundries door and be like, don't include these transactions
21:55
and blogs. Those transactions will still
21:57
get included in other blocks by other miners.
22:01
Presumably at a higher fee because the large miners aren't
22:05
including it, but they would still get included in now
22:09
treasure. He could take it a step further
22:11
and say, you cannot build on top of blocks.
22:15
That have the sense of transaction essentially
22:18
attempting to reorg any minors that are mining sensor
22:24
transactions. I don't think they'd go that far
22:26
at least not anytime soon. But partially, that's only
22:29
because I think they're just not quite there yet.
22:32
In their understanding of, this is the think we should assume
22:35
the worst. Well, they for and I was
22:37
actually someone in the comments that gave me the inspiration.
22:40
Asked this question, shut up Bitcoin.
22:43
Bitcoin shooter. Will they for It's a fork.
22:47
Well, um, OFA tof, a, whatever approved, you know, instead of
22:53
be as go back, oh fact. Bitcoin verse Bitcoin.
22:59
I mean look obviously miners wouldn't want that to happen.
23:03
So I think you know sorry I think I saw you open your mouth
23:09
and I muted you. I'm gonna say no it's not going
23:12
to happen because the miners will respond fast enough and I
23:16
think there's a lot of legal differences here that people
23:20
don't understand. You know, when it comes to
23:22
actually what miners are doing and how they interact with the
23:25
pool and what they get paid for right.
23:28
It's very easy for us to just shift or hash rate over to a
23:33
different country and a different legal jurisdiction.
23:35
Where's the Bitcoin? Mining actually taking place,
23:38
right? Is it taking place at the pool
23:40
level is to taking place where you know the physical miners are
23:44
actually doing the work. Like where's the where's the
23:48
work happening, right? There's a aggregation that's
23:52
taking place at the pool level. All were doing is just
23:56
processing whatever we get sent just like Matt was Was talking
23:59
about. It's very easy for us to send
24:01
the value of our hash rate somewhere else, right
24:03
instantaneously to a different jurisdiction where different
24:07
rules apply right? All we care about as a
24:11
large-scale institutional minor is that I'm getting the most
24:14
value out of my computational power, right?
24:18
That's what I care about. I care that I'm getting the mat
24:22
Revenue that I'm getting. I'm just possible for me to get
24:24
out of my Tara hash and, you know, I'm not going to get that
24:28
if I have The skip out on a bunch of transactions, you know
24:31
about that would be my assumption.
24:33
My assumption is that these transactions are in Block
24:36
somewhere else. They're paying a pretty nice
24:37
transaction fee. They should be included in
24:39
blocks. I do want to process them miners
24:44
will just adapt around this. And we'll just, we'll just shift
24:48
with that Network, hash rate. So, what you're suggesting?
24:50
I mean, but does this mean shift as in actually moving the
24:55
physical look physical location of these machines.
24:58
Is to a better jurisdiction because I get it from a free
25:03
market perspective, right? It's like, obviously, you know,
25:06
I'm just gonna mind the chain or thing.
25:08
That's going to be the most economical to me.
25:10
But, and this reminds me of this, this law, that was just
25:13
passed in Europe, right? Where they're forcing iPhones.
25:17
To use usb chargers instead of lightning port and that is going
25:21
to be a huge loss of revenue for Apple, right?
25:26
So what I'm trying to say is that sometimes governments don't
25:30
give a flying F when it comes to profit, right?
25:34
So what would you say to that corporate corporate structures
25:38
have a really good way of solving, you know, the problems
25:42
that have been caused by governments?
25:44
And so, you know there's there's always that you set up here
25:47
company in your operations in order to Shield yourself from
25:51
certain, you know, risk liabilities cost those sorts of
25:55
things right now. I like You look at how an actual
25:58
mining operation are structured. A lot of the time, you have a
26:02
mining company that has two different.
26:04
Subsidiaries one is doing the actual hosting operation for the
26:09
other subsidiary was just owns the miners and, you know, is in
26:14
a contractual obligation with the hosting company to operate,
26:17
its own equipment. Now, you're one company, it's
26:20
all the same thing, but because of how you want to structure
26:24
things for legal and tax purposes, that's how you set it
26:27
up and there's a million ways you can use, you know, different
26:32
legal and corporate structures in order to change your Your
26:38
legal implications. And the reality is is that
26:42
they'll just move that hash rate they'll just change the legal
26:45
structure. It's just going to morph Around
26:49
It. Whatever It Is Awesome.
26:52
Matt, you want to add to that before moving on.
26:58
I just it's it's interesting having this conversation right
27:05
now because this conversation has been happening more.
27:13
It's been more common, which is good to see.
27:14
I mean, look, we should be always thinking about worst-case
27:16
scenarios, period is healthy. Always in this kind of system in
27:20
a system like Bitcoin where where it is operating in the The
27:26
most adversarial environments where it needs to be robust and
27:30
needs to have, you know, as close to 24/7 uptime as possible
27:34
that can withstand the largest government attacks that you have
27:37
to assume the worst. Always you just always have to
27:39
assume the worst. But it's interesting talking
27:45
about it right now because the last six months while having
27:48
this conversation, it was in a situation where we saw a massive
27:53
increase in hash controlled by publicly.
27:55
Lee traded Miners. And publicly traded mind is, why
27:58
do I call them out? Is because specifically there,
28:01
the easier types of firms to regulate.
28:03
They're already completely wrapped up in the bureaucracy.
28:08
We've seen a massive increase in that hash rate and they were
28:12
incentivized essentially over more Sovereign miners because
28:17
they were able to get such cheap debt.
28:19
So they were able to expand super quickly in the bull market
28:23
on cheap debt that no one else could get.
28:26
Or that the smaller operators had more trouble getting and now
28:30
that's all kind of unwinding. We're seeing a lot of them fail
28:33
and it's going to be kind of a survival of the fittest.
28:36
But the question is, does that hash distribute?
28:41
And I would my guess is that? It does not my guess is.
28:45
We're going to see a few big players Rise From the Ashes of
28:48
this bear Market in an America specifically that control a
28:53
large large amount of hash Under one Corporation under one
28:57
publicly traded Corporation, but depending on how that rolls out
29:01
like depending if it happens that way, or if it actually
29:04
distributes we are, we're in a completely different situation
29:07
in 8 months, 12 months. So let's talk about nature
29:12
healing itself and what I mean, that, I mean, the forgive my
29:17
language. The ask the absolute clusterfuck
29:21
of the Celsius debacle and the one of the largest Bitcoin,
29:28
mining public Bitcoin, mining companies in the world.
29:30
Basically, basically, I know they technically didn't declare
29:35
bankruptcy, but like I'm not going to pay back my loans type
29:39
of thing and I'm Anyone who are about to declare bankruptcy.
29:42
Thank you. Thank you, my.
29:43
I'm trying to be nice. I'm the most humble.
29:46
This is what I'll let you know. So I want to keep saying that in
29:48
front of Matt 01 on the humble scale, I don't see.
29:54
It depends on how you look at the scale that might be the most
29:56
humblest or that might not be, I'll never know.
30:00
Anyways, okay, so back to this been, what are your thoughts on
30:06
this, man? Was this avoidable bike or
30:08
scientific? And could you explain to
30:11
everybody because you're you're in the trenches, you see what's
30:14
going on? Why did this happen to core
30:16
scientific? Yeah, so first just touching off
30:22
of what Matt said. They're you know.
30:24
There's there's one really cool thing that I do like about the
30:26
public companies and that's the decentralization of ownership.
30:30
You know, there's an opportunity here through traditional
30:34
Vehicles, like public companies public shares for investors to
30:39
get access to Hash rate and Industrial scale.
30:41
Mining economics in a way, they've never really been able
30:45
to do before now granted you still have to work.
30:48
Through your counterparty and your counterparty risk and
30:51
trying to identify the correct counterparty in this market is
30:57
no easy feat for anybody even a seasoned Pro.
31:00
But you know, the reality is that for companies like us we've
31:04
got 80,000 retail shareholders so we have taken roughly 2% of
31:10
the Bitcoin Network, a straight and we spread it out over 80,000
31:15
plus shareholders. Right?
31:16
So that's a huge Ization of the network cash rate, you know,
31:22
from what it could have been previously without private
31:27
without public companies and everything just being private
31:29
and being small smaller players. So I think that's a really cool
31:35
thing and Niko I totally forgot your second question.
31:38
Yeah, specifically as it relates to core scientific right?
31:44
Core scientific. How did I forget that question?
31:48
Ha ha ha. Okay, you know well I think the
31:56
writing was on the wall with compute North.
31:59
When that came out, this is this is the light at the end of the
32:02
tunnel. We needed to see some
32:04
capitulation in the market because there was a time in the
32:08
mining space where people were going after insane levels of
32:12
growth for any price. And that is not sustainable.
32:16
We cannot have that this Market is Is too competitive, it's too
32:20
brutal. And so when we had a poll back
32:23
you know down to 20 K which started seeing you know, mining
32:27
economics that we haven't seen since 2020.
32:31
You know, people are starting to look at this and they're saying
32:33
holy shit, you know, I'm in over my head, this sort of thing
32:37
needed to happen unfortunate more of it needs to happen as
32:41
well. But this is a necessary step
32:45
before we can take off again as an industry.
32:48
So I think this is painful but this is overall.
32:53
This is the market healing itself.
32:55
This is the self healing element of a free markets and Nature's
33:00
that you were talking about me go.
33:03
Yeah, it's good. It's interesting because I've I
33:07
was there 2018 and you're seeing the same thing happen.
33:10
It's just on a much bigger scale because there's a lot more
33:15
public. Mining companies, mining
33:17
Bitcoin. And just it's interesting to see
33:21
history repeating itself is was what I'm trying to say but and
33:26
but it's so funny, the headlines and it was to something that you
33:30
were saying earlier, Odell's like when you When you have, I
33:34
hate using the word expertise, I absolutely despise it.
33:37
But when let's say you find, I'm going to use it because I can't
33:40
think of any other word right now when you have the expertise
33:43
of a specific subject matter and you're reading the journalism,
33:47
top covering that specific subject matter.
33:51
You're just like this is. Yes.
33:53
But watching the sensationalist headlines in relation to core
33:57
scientific. It's just like no, man, this is
34:00
a good thing. This is a good thing.
34:03
So we have about 25 minutes left.
34:06
I want to use the rest of the time talking about the future.
34:11
You talking about a lot of negativity today.
34:13
So I'm going to give a mini give two examples.
34:17
We've seen this in the last two years we've seen ExxonMobil,
34:21
using pursue energy, which recently just acquired Great,
34:25
American Mining. And we saw gas problem, which is
34:30
the state-owned Ben's laughing. I want to No, why, what do you
34:33
know that? We don't know, Ben isn't it
34:35
isn't it Crusoe. Hey look, I think what you're I
34:39
butchered your last name. What makes you think?
34:41
I know how to pronounce that. Oh, man.
34:45
How do you pronounce it? Crusoe crew.
34:47
So I said crew so true. So he's he was way off.
34:52
I can't remember how he said it now, but it really stuck out in
34:55
my mind as being way off, they go back and check the tapes.
34:59
English is my second language, I have no shame.
35:03
Guys, understand what I had to say.
35:04
Yeah, my mom has a huge. My mom has a huge accent and she
35:09
gets shit done. And anyways, I'm getting
35:12
sidetracked. So back as around him, gasps
35:17
prompt yes, state-owned Russian state-owned Energy company and
35:24
it was announced also that they were using.
35:26
It was it's funny because they were using the company that
35:29
they're using Compass miners. The compass mind, Others are
35:33
using the company that Compass was using to was a bit River.
35:37
Yeah, it was a bit River. So, clearly you haven't, you try
35:41
a 6 out of the deal. Yeah, it's perfect.
35:44
Worked out. Great.
35:45
Um, so yeah, Ben what are your thoughts on that?
35:49
It's a, you know, what? If you've been in this long
35:52
enough, you're like that was obvious, but it still doesn't
35:55
take away from the holy crap. Moment, just like, when they
36:00
made legal tender in El Salvador, You're like this was
36:04
always coming but it never it. Dude, you're still like in shock
36:08
when it actually happened. So been first question, were you
36:13
surprised? And second question, is this
36:16
going to keep happening? And if it is how so Yeah, I
36:21
mean, not surprised at all. This is the Natural Evolution of
36:24
things. Bitcoin is really, really
36:26
disruptive to energy markets because it allows you to access
36:30
International markets, digitally without that physical
36:34
infrastructure that it's taken to physically transport the
36:37
energy night, just transport the value that's transformative for
36:41
a lot of different areas and so you will think that that is
36:44
going to spread. I would think also that the
36:48
facilities that you generally see People building today are
36:51
not going to be the facilities that are going to be powering
36:54
the Bitcoin Network. And probably you know, three
36:58
having Cycles from now it's going to be very very different
37:00
if you look at where Bitcoin mining is the most profitable
37:05
and the most advantageous with like the existing synergies, you
37:11
look at like a normal you know distribution curve.
37:14
The vast majority of that energy underneath that curve is not
37:18
something that's That's kind of make sense for Bitcoin.
37:20
Bitcoin makes sense. Kind of in these like weird
37:23
tail-end scenarios where, you know, they're monetizing some
37:30
sort of weird Market, dynamic or weird.
37:32
Any fish in sea in the market and that's where that makes
37:37
sense. So, gazprom should be doing it
37:40
all. Energy companies are going to be
37:41
doing this. I will think that, you know, in
37:43
the future all power plants and kind of transmission level
37:46
infrastructure. You're going to have small bit
37:49
Coins are that are just they're kind of as load Banks.
37:53
Ramping up, ramping down and trying to monetize that last
37:56
little bit of excess Supply on the line you want to add to
38:02
that. You're, you're a slave to the
38:05
new cycle, just as much as I am my friend because you do rabbit
38:08
hole recap. So, you know, exactly what's
38:10
going on, even with Miss - scrub, even what?
38:14
Yes, check out Rabbit Hole recap, even with my
38:16
mispronunciation you're so plugged in your like I know what
38:20
he's talking about. So also cousin Marty was neck
38:25
taping, you know, working for Great American mining for a
38:28
while and Crusoe is There's a there's a lot of question marks
38:39
around them right now, particularly in flare gas
38:43
mining. I think more of it will become
38:46
public going forward but They've specifically been very malicious
38:53
with their patents and it's a very troubling troubling sign.
38:58
Because part like flared gas is is one of the coolest subsets of
39:04
Bitcoin mining and it will, it will significantly distribute
39:08
Mining. And it already has, I mean, you
39:11
can have, you can have like a few Wells on your property and
39:16
you can just connect that to internet, you know.
39:20
Use it to power generator and all of a sudden you're mining
39:22
Bitcoin off-grid. Okay but hold on, hold on bent
39:25
hold on I'm sorry to interrupt you because I'm very curious for
39:29
my understanding and I might be wrong here is it is flared gas
39:34
viable without the government incentives because we know for
39:37
example, that the government is like, okay, that's the cool
39:41
part. The cool part is the cool part
39:44
is up until this point energy producers have been forced by
39:49
regulation to Flair. And a lot of them don't listen
39:52
to that because it just cause some money and it's hard to
39:54
enforce like you have to be out on the site to see if they're
39:57
actually flaring the amount. They're supposed to be firing.
40:00
Now, instead of just letting that gas go, right?
40:04
When they don't flare, they just vent it.
40:07
And if they do flare, they're literally burning money.
40:10
Instead of doing that, they have a direct incentive, not to vent
40:13
it. They have a direct incentive to
40:15
turn it into real money to turn into Bitcoin.
40:17
So not only is it extremely Really powerful on the incentive
40:21
side, it's good, it's good for the environment and and it's
40:27
just great for energy producers. But my point is the cool part
40:31
about it to me is that inherently, distributes mining
40:35
having a company going around trying to centralize that via
40:40
patent. Trolling is a concern that
40:43
people should be concerned about.
40:45
So more on that will kind of come out over the next Six
40:49
months my guess is because obviously other flared gas
40:56
mining operations are not happy about that on the X on its cold
41:01
seeing Exxon involved. I mean axons obviously one of
41:04
the most valuable companies in the world.
41:07
So that's obviously, you know a bullish sign of legitimacy for
41:11
of the freaks know my listeners know that my dad is a like a
41:14
massive Rider die. Exxon Bowl.
41:16
So it to him there was A lot of legitimacy added on that.
41:20
And then on the gazprom side, I think the guy's problem side is
41:25
exactly what we expected to see, which is like, nation-state
41:29
nation-state mining operations. And if we see more of those,
41:34
then all of a sudden, we had your risks on America, for
41:37
instance, having too much hash rate, that might be under
41:39
regulatory captures kind of situation.
41:43
So, I mean, I think it's on the Bitcoin side, it's really great
41:47
to see, you know, no nation states that are necessarily not
41:51
Nest, you know, not aligned or allied with, with America also,
41:55
adopt mining. So that we have more
41:57
distribution globally, but it is really fucked up because they're
42:01
little remaining with people's Compass miners because the US
42:05
government sanctioned bit River and then the my accomplices like
42:09
up, we can't get your miners out.
42:11
Something bit River, just presumably took the miners and
42:13
now guys problems using those so sucks.
42:17
Oh man. So Crazy times.
42:20
We live in. Yes, I did not expect this
42:23
timeline. No, that's just that's the
42:25
funniest timeline, though. It just keeps getting more
42:29
interesting. Oh, this is a funny, comment,
42:32
Odell, I'm sorry, I have to do this by Bitcoin user XXX.
42:37
I discovered Odell the day, they invited sailor and BTC sessions.
42:40
He was drunk. AFF of a very funny episode.
42:44
Now, I have now I want to see that.
42:46
That's not fair. You haven't seen that episode.
42:48
It's know. It was that it was that the
42:50
first top. It was at the first top and I
42:53
was just drunk. Bitcoin Tina I was right about
43:00
Bitcoin, Tina being a bear. I mean I was definitely wrong
43:03
about the drunk price calls I made in that episode but it was
43:07
a long day of content for me. I had been I think I did our HR
43:10
then I did like Swan signal and then I like jumped into that at
43:13
the tail end of that stream and I was just Way too drunk way
43:18
too. Bullish not humble at all, but
43:20
Tina wasn't there. I was correct on that.
43:22
Yeah, the the know the the shows are the target is my fourth show
43:27
today. My Bros I did simply Lynn Alden,
43:31
the Jeff Booth and you guys are my fourth but then was able to
43:35
make it. So it's just it was a nice
43:37
little cherry on top. So, okay, going back to the in
43:44
terms of the the flared gas stuff and I'm going to tie it
43:46
in. With with you Ben and and B
43:49
Farms. What?
43:53
What renewable energy does bit forms?
43:55
Use and do you guys see yourselves using flared gas in
44:00
the future? I like hydro hydro is my
44:03
favorite one, why? Yeah.
44:06
Usually huge amounts of excess capacity built out for
44:10
industrial demand which is gone. So you know, you have no other
44:15
way to move this asset other than through inefficient.
44:18
Transmission lines usually Deprecated, you know, amateur
44:23
eyes paid off asset, very little to keep it operational.
44:30
I really like Hydro. I think it's the best
44:32
cost-effective renewable asset and you don't have any of the,
44:37
you know, the intermittency issues that you have with with
44:40
solar or wind beyond that. I would be really interested in
44:44
geothermal projects if there were you know, any that were
44:48
sizable and cost-effective I Like geothermal as well.
44:52
But generally speaking there they've just been a little bit
44:56
too expensive and out of that that price range and and if I
45:02
can just come up a little bit on the geopolitics thing that you
45:06
brought up. Because I think that's the most
45:08
interesting element of where we are today in the Bitcoin mining.
45:15
You know Wars that we have going on right now like China Banning
45:18
Bitcoin. Mining is such a mess.
45:21
Massive geopolitical shift and I don't think people understand
45:23
it. You know the fact that gazprom
45:27
and Russia is doing mining in the fact that you've got places
45:31
like Iran doing mining United States is doing mining, you've
45:35
got areas, like you've got a DQ in in Abu Dhabi and you've got a
45:42
the other group that's just an hour and a half, you know, away
45:46
in Dubai who was doing 600 megawatts of mine.
45:49
So you've got what's supposed to be An announcement to do 2.6
45:53
gigawatts worth of Mining and UAE alone.
45:56
You know, that's 26 percent of current power consumption for
46:00
the entire network and they've got ways to keep their costs
46:05
artificially low, right? Like this this geopolitics angle
46:08
is super interesting and if it's not happening in the United
46:12
States then you know you start thinking about the areas where
46:16
this hash rate is going to be going and and it's likely going
46:19
to be some some pretty rough areas.
46:25
We're so committed. So let's talk about in big,
46:27
fucking awesome. Watching old play out.
46:30
Yeah man. And Matt and I have front row
46:33
seats and where the fucking Vanguard?
46:35
We're the ones that gonna get actually beat up.
46:37
Okay. Oh Jesus.
46:39
Okay. Anyways, I've got that Ben's.
46:42
Bells got all business on the line over here.
46:44
Yeah. Yeah.
46:45
But we're excuse my language because we're the dumb
46:48
motherfuckers being the faces of it.
46:51
So yeah, it's gonna be interesting.
46:53
Okay so so Let's talk about mining manufacturing
46:58
centralization, right? We know that the biggest mining
47:01
manufacturers right now, it's what's minor B main right.
47:05
The I know that they made announcements at their
47:07
manufacturing. Now that I think what's minor
47:09
made an ounce of their Manufacturing in the us, but we
47:12
still know that the vast majority made specifically the
47:15
Shenzhen reason region, right? So, do you see that as an issue?
47:20
Been that the vast majority of Join a six or made in the
47:26
country that is actively hostile towards not only Bitcoin mining
47:31
but just Bitcoin in general. So I think you have a couple
47:36
things going on one. We've got so much Hardware
47:39
sitting there in our market right now that we could stop
47:44
producing miners tomorrow and we'd still have a back log of
47:48
minors for many, many months to go.
47:52
So I don't think that's that's an immediate concern.
47:56
In terms of it being more of a long-term concern.
47:59
This Market is, is really ripe for disruption.
48:01
That's why I was so glad to see you until come out last year,
48:04
but their chips. You know, that Main and
48:07
mikrobitti produce the vast majority of miners out there
48:11
globally and they've all shifted, the vast majority of
48:15
their production outside of mainland China already.
48:17
So, I think the vast majority for both of those is being done
48:20
in Southeast Asia. Whether that's Thailand,
48:22
Indonesia, Malaysia or a couple of other countries which are
48:27
also contributing to the next. This is what I was talking about
48:31
earlier with those corporate structures and legal structures.
48:34
You know, these These, these Trump 301 duties really came
48:37
into effect and within a couple of months and I think within,
48:42
you know, case of our industry is probably something like 12 to
48:45
18 months later. We had a huge massive shift of
48:48
manufacturing that started to move for the first time ever.
48:55
So you know that we'll see that every single time there's a bull
48:58
market, we're going to see a massive amount of people coming
49:01
into the space, trying to disrupt the the Was Bitcoin,
49:05
miners, trying to gain an edge. It's very expensive to do that.
49:09
I like to see people continuing to try and keep the the space
49:12
nice and fresh, but you won't sign meet.
49:16
You won't find me signing up any any checks anytime soon for a
49:21
new Bitcoin, mining manufacturer fresh on the same.
49:24
Speaking of new Bitcoin, mining manufacturers, fresh on the
49:27
scene. I'm going to pass this to Adele
49:29
but first we have a very important question and if you
49:32
guys know this inside joke, they think it came from Ziploc do I
49:35
want to ask the question about? Okay what percentage that what
49:40
percentage of global energy consumption will be used by
49:45
Bitcoin mining in 30 years? I think we're nor the capacity
49:50
of them still fraction of 1%, right?
49:54
You know where we are. Yeah, we're right there between
49:57
like 0.12, maybe 0.2% right now and you know about all the
50:02
different having that we have, you know, that that's going to
50:06
take place in that time that that are going to cut down that
50:08
reward. We're going to be sub single,
50:11
Bitcoin block, reward within that time, you know.
50:14
Like that's really why you're so bearish.
50:19
I'm not bearish, I'm not perish at all.
50:21
But my point is, is that I think that I think that Bitcoin mining
50:27
has to, by definition, it has to move to Marginal sources of
50:31
electricity. It's the only way that this
50:34
industry makes sense in the long term is it's the buyer of Last
50:38
Resort for electricity at all, sorts of, you know, all sorts of
50:44
scales. And that's what it's doing with,
50:45
with methane capture flare gas, mine.
50:48
That's what we're doing with Quebec in our excess Hydro plan
50:51
and everything else, like we're taking advantage of power and
50:55
we're being a buyer of Last Resort for power that has no
50:58
other purpose. And that's that's where you're
51:02
going to make your money in the long term.
51:06
You're not going to be able to be viable, I think signing up to
51:09
grid prices and just like paying but I her face paying like
51:13
you're going to have to have some sort of man to have some
51:17
sort of a pricing Edge like that.
51:19
Go for a mat, go for it. Bro.
51:22
I have not. You want to respond to that.
51:24
Yes, just just to know. I just I just most miners I talk
51:29
to are just extremely bearish on energy consumption.
51:32
I just don't, I don't understand it like but big is in 30 years
51:38
or whatever. I said, what they say, 20 years
51:41
because Bitcoin, the standard money of the world at that
51:43
point, or we still, I think. So, I think so.
51:47
I mean, but I don't think that we're We're I don't think
51:49
Bitcoins ever going to be like single hole single digit
51:53
percentages of energy? I don't think it's necessary.
51:57
What's necessary is from the security angle that it's too
52:02
costly and and difficult for anybody to even come close to
52:06
attempt to. It doesn't need to consume like
52:09
X percentage of the world's energy, right?
52:11
It needs to be able to withstand high levels and basically any
52:16
reasonable level of attack, Then do you do any home money?
52:21
More like individual mining. Okay, I'll respect your object.
52:27
Regardless what like, do you think do you think in 20 years,
52:31
your family, your individual family energy consumption will
52:36
be larger than 50% energy consumption dedicated to
52:40
bitcoin. An individual families energy
52:45
consumption or they're completely dedicated to percent
52:48
behind a Bitcoin. I think there's a lot of
52:51
families where that'll definitely be true because I
52:53
this is about. I said it's about capturing
52:56
these these weird Market in deficiencies.
52:59
It's about recycling. Those ways is having that
53:02
marginal cost electricity things.
53:04
Like hey you're going to use this electricity for heat.
53:08
You might as well mine Bitcoin and offset your costs like
53:11
that's It's those are very compelling economics that are
53:15
going to be true even if Bitcoin is very volatile, right?
53:19
You know, your offset. How does that?
53:23
How does of that? It's a marginal source of
53:25
electricity, right? Like that's Bitcoin has to go to
53:29
those kind of Economics, you're not going to be signing up for
53:33
like 87 power costs. Like you're going to be sitting
53:36
there doing grid balancing, you're going to be buying Peak
53:39
demand, you know, when it's Not in Peak demand.
53:43
Like that's that's what you're going to be doing is you're
53:46
going to be taking that still counts as us that still counts,
53:49
the energy consumption percentage Yeah.
53:53
Yeah, but it's pretty small. Like, I mean, seriously, like
53:56
right now we're 0.12 0.2% of the world which is why all this
54:01
stuff is like so laughable and you you know, you keep rolling
54:06
this forward. It's like how much can the
54:08
energy really grow over the next 18 months until we have having
54:13
like, run those run those analyses in your head, like
54:16
start running payback calculations for a new build out
54:19
if you start today. And when you turn it on, like,
54:21
Line six months from now and then you've got to having 12
54:25
months after that like, you know, we're not going to be
54:29
growing so fast with these kinds of economic incentives, you
54:33
know? So but I don't know if you know,
54:36
like where this question started but it started it started on
54:40
stage. We had a rabbit hole recap on
54:42
stage a bit, block them, and it was because, you know, Elizabeth
54:45
Warren, and all these different policy makers are saying Bitcoin
54:49
uses too much energy and obviously, We as an industry, we
54:53
use very little of the energy mix like you says like point one
54:56
percent point two percent, whatever it's negligible and a
55:00
lot of miners argue rather than arguing like it's a negligible
55:04
amount, they argue we can use as much energy as we want, you
55:09
shouldn't police or energy, right?
55:11
But if you're a minor and you actually believe that after a
55:14
hyper Bitcoin is easier, we're going to use less than 1%.
55:17
Then why are we even having this conversation?
55:18
Like they should just be, we are going to use negligible Gee
55:22
forever but then I look at both of those are true.
55:26
Matt, and everybody has their own story.
55:28
They want to say but they're both true.
55:29
Yeah, no, no. But what is true is in 30 years,
55:34
my family's Energy. Mix is going to be like 60%,
55:37
Bitcoin mining 70% Bitcoin mining like I just could be
55:42
that's what I expect my family's Energy Mix to be energy,
55:45
consumption mixer, that's even word.
55:47
I don't even know that's a word, I think it's going to be, you
55:51
know, Dunmore. I'm like a utility level and
55:54
utility scale. I think there's going to be four
55:57
for sure Simone minors and some home situations.
56:00
But I think most of the time we are where the Mayans really
56:03
going to be happening is is that distribution and transmission
56:07
level and you're going to have small little mind sitting
56:10
outside substations and when there's you know excess excess
56:14
load capacity relative to demand, I think you're just
56:17
going to start monetizing it with Bitcoin mining.
56:20
Like that's I think that's That's that's inevitable.
56:23
Like you can't that's obvious. Yeah.
56:25
In that transaction and that's solving a problem that nobody
56:30
ever thought was possible to fix.
56:32
So like I think that's the natural inevitable, you know,
56:36
spot that that that fills in and it's been I think a hundred
56:41
voids in 100 years like every boiler and America is going to
56:46
have an Asic in it over and it should be What why should you
56:51
just generate heat? Just for generating heat like
56:55
makes meat is eats the most common byproduct of a lot of
56:59
different industrial, you know, processes that just that just
57:05
obvious, you know, a good way that you can save on on
57:09
economics. Awesome guys that you guys just
57:13
made my job a whole lot easier. I love the cage match Duty with
57:19
a great. So it's interesting because I
57:23
had Marshall long and Adamo Denver Bitcoin and I came in the
57:30
same thing happen, bro. They just started going back and
57:32
forth but it lasted on that topic.
57:35
No, dude, they're just Dubrow talking about immersion mining
57:38
airflow mining. Oh, oh, I'm going to send this
57:41
to Adam. The first time I ever started.
57:44
This question was with Adam, like, atoms as an under 1% or as
57:48
well. It was Marty.
57:50
I mean, it's, it's like, it's just the math, dude.
57:53
You know, you run the math and you look at kind of water
57:56
Whopper Tara hash efficiency assumptions new start getting,
57:59
you know, pretty predictable levels of energy consumption and
58:03
we're not growing like the network grows because we're
58:06
offset by efficiencies, right? And then you have that economic
58:11
incentive and We were not a parabolic curve like we're,
58:15
we're at very Jagged linear curve.
58:19
And so that's just that's just how it is.
58:22
I can't imagine we're never going to hit like eight percent
58:25
of the world's energy and so you know these these conversations
58:29
are foolish for so many reasons. They're foolish because like one
58:35
you know the the predicted outcomes or just just just so
58:40
unrealistic Okay and then the second over back in cage match
58:44
the second because like you look at all these different things
58:48
and then it's like wait a minute.
58:49
If you actually understand any of this math you'd understand
58:53
that Bitcoin mining is probably improving and reducing emissions
58:56
more than its contributing to emissions.
58:59
Like you do understand that this is providing a more positive
59:02
impact than a negative. One you start running the math
59:05
and say, okay, this is going to actually make things a lot
59:08
worse. If we, if we go after it, It's
59:12
pretty, it's pretty bizarre to me that this conversation is
59:15
being had and the fact that it is being ad is another symptom
59:19
of how early we are in this space because we're having
59:23
conversations around like morality of energy use now, you
59:27
know, like some of the event like you knowing, who knew, who
59:31
knew this conversation was was was you know, open and available
59:36
to us. But if we all start talking
59:37
about morality of energy, he's like okay Okay.
59:42
You know, we can play that game about what's immoral.
59:45
Use of energy. I would say that securing the
59:47
Bitcoin Network and private property and freedoms for people
59:51
around the world is a significant better use of energy
59:54
than all of tick-tock combined, you know, so we can start making
59:58
those calculations and comparisons if people want to do
1:00:01
that, how much energy does it take, you know, for selfies and,
1:00:05
and all this other stuff that people use and don't need so.
1:00:10
Yeah, it really foolish foolish. Foolish argument in the first
1:00:15
place backed by the worst data, it's a, it's frustrating.
1:00:22
Okay, I've really enjoyed this guy's, I will fucking, I'm
1:00:28
fucking exhausted. I really like this.
1:00:31
Thank you guys, for coming on, for anyone's to niang.
1:00:34
We have the legendary metal Dell and the legendary Ben, God, you
1:00:38
know, I got his name, right. Thank you for tuning in to
1:00:41
another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL.
1:00:43
We'll be back with the show tomorrow. 12:15 p.m.
1:00:46
Eastern Standard Time. Guys, please stay backstage.
1:00:49
I'm going to roll out the credits to.
1:00:50
It doesn't take more than 10 15 seconds.
1:00:53
We'll be right back. Well, I mean we'll be right back
1:00:55
but I'll see you guys tomorrow. Peace.