Latest / Reasonably Happy with Paul Ollinger / 5 Questions with Bruce Feiler

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5 Questions with Bruce Feiler · Reasonably Happy with Paul Ollinger

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everybody.
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  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to our live stream.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're going to get going in just a second.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, Bruce and I are just catching up.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's from Savannah, Georgia.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm from Atlanta, Georgia.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we have a little bit of state history in common.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you all for joining.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Matt Ruby, excellent New York City comedian.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mr. Rollins, thank you for joining.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, let's jump in.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, everybody.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining today.
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  SPEAKER_00: I am New York City comedian and podcaster Paul Ollinger.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is Five Questions,
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  SPEAKER_00: and my guest today is a New York Times columnist,
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  SPEAKER_00: author of seven New York Times bestsellers,
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  including Walking the Bible,
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  The Council of Dads,
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  and The Secret of Happy Families.
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  His TED Talk has generated over 5 million views and he's got a
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  greatSubstack called
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  SPEAKER_00: The Non-Linear Life.
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  He is the author of a new book which you can see in his
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  background and I have right
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  SPEAKER_00: here and I have read it.
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  It's called A Time to Gather How Ritual Created the World and
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  How It Can Save Us.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's a big promise from Bruce Feiler.
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  SPEAKER_00: Bruce, thanks for joining me.
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  my pleasure and given the comedian of it all I'm surprised that
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  we haven't you know
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  gone down the rabbit hole of my year as a circus clown right
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  you know so we've got
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  Georgia in common now we have Georgia I don't think I know that
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  story let's have
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  SPEAKER_01: the thumbnail well I mean the thumbnail is
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  SPEAKER_01: I learned to juggle when I was 13 and I put myself through high school,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's the phrase I'm always used,
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  SPEAKER_01: doing birthday parties where I didn't buy them and juggling.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I considered going to clown college,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is,
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  SPEAKER_01: by the way,
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  SPEAKER_01: one of the great marketing gimmicks of all time.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was basically a Ringling Brothers conceit.
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  of a four week training program that they call Clown College
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  and whenever they
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  would tour around the country they would get the local TV
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  broadcasters to come go
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  to Clown College for a day which is to say promote the circus
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  on their TV shows but
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  I didn't do that I went to actual college and a couple of
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  pretty good ones I
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  SPEAKER_00: believe Yale and Cambridge Cambridge Clown College
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  Well,
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  I went to Yale and I went to Cambridge and then I joined the
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  circus after both of those.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
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  So I sold my first book about Japan and then my second book
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  about Cambridge and I
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  SPEAKER_01: was coming back to America and I was like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know what?
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  SPEAKER_01: What better way do we discover America than the background of the circus?
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  SPEAKER_01: So I spent a year as a clown in the Clyde Biddy Cold Brothers Circus.
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  Two shows a day,
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  three shows on Saturday,
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  every day from March to November without a day off.
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  SPEAKER_01: And did you...
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  SPEAKER_01: When you hang by your hair, are you going to a cage with tigers?
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  SPEAKER_01: You can't have a bad day.
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  Do you have any experiences you want to relate about the
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  bearded lady or the
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  SPEAKER_00: 150-year-old man or something like that?
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  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, look, you would think you were a comedian.
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  SPEAKER_01: You would not be desperate.
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  SPEAKER_01: That is a sideshow.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, the circus is actual performers.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's an art form.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now you're, you know, don't talk about carnies.
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  SPEAKER_01: Don't talk about sideshow.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, these are actual artists, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so, you know.
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  SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
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  SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
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  free clowns free bozo okay uh bruce okay the new book is called
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  a time to gather
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  how ritual created the world and how it can save us we need
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  saving so question
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  number one for you is how do rituals make us happy well rituals
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  address what we
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  know actually from decades of research to be the number one
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  source of happiness
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  SPEAKER_01: which is our relationships with other people
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: in essence,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: one way of shaping this story is that we have come,
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  SPEAKER_01: our sort of,
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  SPEAKER_01: what I call our V-I axis is completely off kilter,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're doing this on social media, right?
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  If you go and look at Instagram and look at hashtag self-care,
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  you get like 20 million usage.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you look at hashtag group care, you get like 21.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  we have so over-indexed on taking care of ourselves that we
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  have forgot the
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  SPEAKER_01: essential value and the skill of how to care for our groups.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the short answer to the question.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, if we take back and do the long answer for a second,
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  SPEAKER_01: 21 years ago,
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  SPEAKER_01: my wife Linda and I,
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  SPEAKER_01: as you and I were just talking off air,
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  went from empty nest to full nest in 32 minutes when we became
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  the parents of
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  SPEAKER_01: identical twin daughters.
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  SPEAKER_01: And 18 years later,
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  we went from full nest to empty nest in 32 minutes when we
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  dropped them off at
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  opposite ends of the same college campus and we walked through
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  our door here in
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  SPEAKER_01: Brooklyn.
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  I had this very distinct feeling,
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  which is I felt homesick in my own home.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know,
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  I know The sense of home is lost And it wasn't just my kids My
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  dad had just died My
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  SPEAKER_01: mom was aging My marriage,
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  which had been built around my kids Now needs to be
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  renegotiated My friendships
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  remade And I went looking for solutions In particular ways I
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  could connect with
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  other people And that's when I stumbled into this Unbelievable
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  story Which in its
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  SPEAKER_01: essence is that ritual
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  We have 300,000 years of evidence that rituals connect us in
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  times of change,
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  SPEAKER_01: calm us when we're going through stress,
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  SPEAKER_01: rearrange and restore the relationships when there's weddings,
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  SPEAKER_01: when there's funerals,
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  SPEAKER_01: whatever it might be.
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  I mean,
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  yet we've turned our back on traditional rituals,
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  birth rituals,
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  coming-of-age rituals.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're plummeting.
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  SPEAKER_01: Only half of us are married anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: Only a third of us are buried anymore,
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  SPEAKER_01: which was shocking to me because so many of us are cremated.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yet at the same time,
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  there's all these new ways of gathering in real life all around
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  us at all times,
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  SPEAKER_01: what I now call the ritual renaissance.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
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  this is a great story because the old rules no longer apply and
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  the new rules
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  SPEAKER_01: haven't been written.
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  SPEAKER_01: And therein is sort of, I think, an opportunity.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I spent three years going,
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  SPEAKER_01: as you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: to rituals in 16 countries on six continents and have written
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  SPEAKER_01: on both what I think of as an adventure story,
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  but also a kind of roadmap for how to have gatherings that
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  everyone will love and
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  SPEAKER_01: appreciate.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: before I crack the book,
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  I expected it to be a treatise on why Shabbat matters and why
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  that kind of thing is
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  SPEAKER_00: important to us,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially now in a digitally connected world.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it was much more than that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I think that that's an interesting,
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  SPEAKER_01: such an interestingly framed question on your mind where it's
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  SPEAKER_01: Because now we think that basically religion created ritual.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, it's the opposite way around.
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  SPEAKER_01: That ritual created religion.
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  SPEAKER_01: It predated it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now when we're in this period where a lot of people embrace it,
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  SPEAKER_01: but a lot of people don't,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it's clear that it will post-date it too.
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  So we have evidence of ritual going back 300,000 years as I
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  sort of dropped in earlier.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  SPEAKER_01: That's before we were anatomically humans.
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  SPEAKER_01: The first thing we did was to gather and bury our debt.
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  And this was for hundreds of thousands of years before
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  organized religion was
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  SPEAKER_01: essentially invented in the second half of the first millennium BCE.
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  And at that point,
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  religion sort of,
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  I don't know,
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  took it over to a certain extent.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was very efficient at rules and making it universal and spreading it.
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  SPEAKER_01: But over the last hundred years or so,
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  We began to decouple from religion And so there's still a lot
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  of religious rituals
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  SPEAKER_01: But they're having to be modernized I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: Michael Coppens,
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  SPEAKER_01: as you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: in a group baptism of the Vatican Where interfaith,
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  SPEAKER_01: intergenerational,
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  SPEAKER_01: non-believing people Right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Children of LGBTQ families Even trans,
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  SPEAKER_01: children of trans people Can now be baptized That's the Catholic Church
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  you know moderating and modulating for modern times and yet
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  there's all these new
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  rituals for things that institutions never really celebrated
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  right so gender
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  reveals right NICU graduations soberversaries and
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  cancerversaries and end of
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  company doulas pet funerals are a three billion dollar business
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  right I mean
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  SPEAKER_01: there's so much happening but also
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  my wife's favorite chapter for example is the Taylor Swift
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  divorce party about this
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  woman who creates a viral trend with shake it off cupcakes and
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  we are never ever
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  getting back together napkins and it religious institutions
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  never would have
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  celebrated that but people wanted it I think that's what's
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  going on when I said to
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  the woman why did she do this she said because I went on AOL
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  chat rooms and
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  SPEAKER_01: Facebook groups right and nowSubstack Lives and
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  SPEAKER_01: I said, my husband's doing this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Am I something wrong with me?
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  SPEAKER_01: And people said, no, that's happening to me.
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  Or older women said,
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  yeah,
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  my husband did that and I didn't have the courage to leave.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so now people are saying whatever I'm going through,
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  SPEAKER_01: whatever twists and turn are up and down in my life,
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  I want to do with my friends and I want to create a way to
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  commemorate it with
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  SPEAKER_01: other people around me.
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  SPEAKER_00: What was the craziest ritual?
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  SPEAKER_00: And that sounds judgmental.
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  What was the most unique and unexpected ritual you experienced
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  as part of this book?
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  SPEAKER_01: So,
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  SPEAKER_01: I love that question because a lot of people are,
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  SPEAKER_01: now that the book's been out for a few weeks,
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  SPEAKER_01: talking about this adolescent tooth filing in bolly.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I went to bolly.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, that was pretty nutty.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like, by the way, the most ritualized... Also judgmental.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's sort of like,
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  SPEAKER_01: there is a kind of,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: cringe is the wrong word,
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  SPEAKER_01: but there's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: wow,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is happening,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Bolly's the most...
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  SPEAKER_01: ritualized place I've ever been, like waking up, going to bed, right?
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  A kid's first 30 days,
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  first tooth,
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  first hair,
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  all these things are ritualized.
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  SPEAKER_01: Getting on a car, riding on a motorcycle.
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  SPEAKER_01: The only one that everyone has to do is tooth filing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what they do is they file down the top six,
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  SPEAKER_01: the six top teeth and the six bottom teeth,
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  SPEAKER_01: both to kind of make you less bestial and more attractive,
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  SPEAKER_01: but also sort of to prepare you
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  SPEAKER_01: Both for mating,
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  but also the responsibilities of adulthood and later the
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  ability to go to the
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  SPEAKER_01: afterlife.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it was incredibly colorful, absolutely fascinating.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I thought like a lot of people seem to think like,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's not something we do in the West.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, let me think here.
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  SPEAKER_01: Tooth Fairy, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: What do you do in adolescence?
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  You take your teeth and you do the thing that's most
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  humiliating to adolescents,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is wrap them in steel.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now we have grills, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: You're, you know, hometown of Atlanta, Georgia.
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  SPEAKER_01: You've got less than two
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  $25,000 grills at his right and now by the way you've got tooth
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  whitening and like
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  SPEAKER_01: you can do that you can find on the internet like you want a you want a
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  bachelorette party where you like gem your teeth you can do it
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  so in fact the idea
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  of like decorating teeth is not as disconnected from ritual in
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  the west as you
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  SPEAKER_00: might think right yeah
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, my second question, my second official question.
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  SPEAKER_00: As a native of the great state of Georgia,
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  SPEAKER_00: which we both are,
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  where does SEC football tailgating fit into the pantheon of
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  global ritual?
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's such a great question.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think of the slogan of the SEC,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: network on ESPN,
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  SPEAKER_01: or maybe it's just the SEC,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is like,
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  SPEAKER_01: it matters more here.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what is a ritual?
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  SPEAKER_01: A ritual is a shared unnecessary act that makes us feel at home.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we can break that down.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's an act.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a doing.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're not talking here.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're doing something, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: This is...
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  With your mouth and your ears This is embodied storytelling We
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  are physically doing
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  something together That will connect us It's shared We are
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  doing it with other
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  SPEAKER_01: people,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: You know You can take a walk in the woods with your dog That's great
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  SPEAKER_01: You want to go forest bathing,
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  SPEAKER_01: a massive thing,
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  SPEAKER_01: and there's a chapter in my book about it,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's an incredible story,
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  SPEAKER_01: again in Japan in the 80s now and 160 countries around the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're doing it with other people,
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  specifically with the purpose of connecting both to nature and
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  to the people around
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  SPEAKER_01: you.
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  And then,
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  finally,
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  it's unnecessary,
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  which is a little bit of a crazy idea,
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  but it's...
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  You don't need to get down on one knee to propose You don't
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  need to wear black to
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  mourn You don't need to circle the bride seven times to get
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  married These are
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  unnecessary things that become necessary because they give us
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  collective meaning
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is the last part,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is it makes us feel at home,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a way of tempering all the change that gets to the save us,
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  which maybe we'll come back to But which is at a moment when we
• 13:03
  all feel homesick
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  you know that we've got the enemy in our pockets that we're
• 13:07
  abdicating ourselves to
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  our phones it connects us in real life so now let's take a
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  tailgate it's an act we
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  SPEAKER_01: are doing it is share it's connecting us to other people it's absolutely
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  unnecessary well right well here we go it's like you know the
• 13:25
  dinner bell is
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  SPEAKER_01: utilitarian come to dinner okay the chemo bell I came out
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  18 years ago and there was no chemo bell that's a new ritual to
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  get people together
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  to mark the end of the chemotherapy so this is you don't need
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  to eat at a tailgate
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  outside either in the rain or in the heat in order to go to a
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  football game you
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  SPEAKER_01: don't need to do that but but it becomes necessary because it extends the
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  experience it and by the way what is it it's it's about food
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  it's about singing
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  SPEAKER_01: it's about
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  SPEAKER_01: Silly clothes, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's break it down.
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  So to me,
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  it has all those elements and also you're not doing it every
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  day.
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  It's also a rare thing that you're doing only at certain times
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  of year and the fact
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  SPEAKER_01: that people travel.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what's the difference between a, you know, big elaborate tailgate
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  SPEAKER_01: And say Burning Man, right?
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  Or say,
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  you know,
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  or say walking the Camino in Santiago or going on any
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  pilgrimage.
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  SPEAKER_01: It has these ritual elements.
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  And the reason we do it is for all those things that are
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  non-necessary and all the
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  SPEAKER_01: emotional connections we make because of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: So tomorrow is the New York Knicks ticker tape parade.
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  SPEAKER_00: My wife and kids will be attending.
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  SPEAKER_00: And my wife is a... Yorkers.
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  SPEAKER_00: They beat you.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what I'm saying.
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  SPEAKER_00: See, she's the latter horse, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: To get here.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, so much for Georgia.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: My wife's not from Atlanta.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: She lived there for 13 years and enjoyed it.
• 14:56
  But that's an example of something where it's a gathering
• 14:58
  that's unnecessary that
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: makes people feel at home.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: She's going because she joined as part of a New Yorker she bought in.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: people call it bandwagon,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: it was something that makes her feel more connected to our neighbors.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why has this happened?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why has this city, which is cynical and is hard, um,
• 15:20
  you know elicited these feelings because people are desperate
• 15:23
  for that to me that's
• 15:26
  my that's my read on what's happening here my kids are the same
• 15:29
  way I have arts
• 15:30
  kids they're theater kids they dance they do musical rights and
• 15:34
  direct players with
• 15:35
  each other they're identical twins and they were out on
• 15:39
  whatever it was Saturday
• 15:40
  night with all these people in lower Manhattan and I'm like oh
• 15:43
  so you're a sports
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: fan now like your dad did
• 15:46
  no we only like it when we win right I mean I'm like that's
• 15:49
  called the bandwagon
• 15:51
  and like a fair weather fan and that is not looked favorably
• 15:54
  they're like sorry we
• 15:56
  went for the spectacle of it but why is this happening besides
• 16:02
  it's been 53 years
• 16:03
  besides all of that stuff it's because we know that we're
• 16:08
  losing it we know that we
• 16:09
  are being pulled apart and why is this book called a time
• 16:12
  together that comes from
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know
• 16:15
  A Time To Mourn A Time To Dance A Time To Weep A Time To Laugh
• 16:20
  But A Time To
• 16:21
  Scatter Stones A Time To Gather Them But Why Am I Saying That
• 16:24
  Ritual Is Essential
• 16:26
  Because And It Can Save Us Because Whatever The Problem Is If
• 16:30
  It's Loneliness
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Ritual Is The Answer If It's Polarization Ritual Is The Answer If It's
• 16:36
  De-Civilization Ritual Is The Answer And All That's Before AI
• 16:41
  Comes For All Of This
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And All Of Us
• 16:43
  So there we understand and I think a lot of this is we just
• 16:47
  understand it and a lot
• 16:48
  of this is the pandemic sort of supercharged it because we saw
• 16:52
  we saw the radical
• 16:53
  alternative that was before us which is isolation right yeah
• 16:59
  and I am saying we
• 17:01
  should do this but I'm saying also it is happening we are
• 17:04
  already doing this and
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: that's to me what the debate is about
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: You need to get those girls some Georgia Bulldogs paraphernalia.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: What needs to happen?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I got plenty of it in my drawer.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I almost thought to wear it, but I didn't.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of them and speaking of you,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: this Sunday was Father's Day,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: so I assumed they were going to buy you a tie.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: But then I wondered how to tie this back to your book.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: How is gift-giving and ritualization interrelated?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, God, you are so good.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um...
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at the history of the anthropology behind ritual,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 17:36
  it's actually a great story and I really enjoy telling it in
• 17:39
  the book and people
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: have been very,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: in terms of what they're saying,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: like excited to lead the story.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a surprise that
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Paul Ollinger
• 18:03
  from Eight Generations of Rabbis who talks about collective
• 18:07
  effervescence.
• 18:08
  That's what's going to happen in the Canyon of Heroes tomorrow
• 18:11
  as we tape this conversation.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got Arnold van Gennep,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: a German anthropologist,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: who coins the phrase Rites of Passage in 1909.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the big...
• 18:26
  analysis was the big theory of gift giving was comes along and
• 18:34
  mouse was connected.
• 18:34
  I think they were actually belated familiarly between mouse and
• 18:39
  M-A-U-S-S and Durkheim.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So what are what a
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: What is a gift?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: A gift is, you know, is it necessary?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is it not necessary?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's an exchange of formality.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a making of a connection.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a codifying of a kind of relationship.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a lot of this.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at so many of the rituals, and it's a reminder.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 19:04
  one of the things about rituals I think that's underappreciated
• 19:06
  is that everyone
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: has every other.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: So when Van Ganeck calls him,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: he calls him birth,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: coming of age,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: marriage,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: and death,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: and says we have to have him in order.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the world we live in now.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: We live in nonlinear lives with many more twists and turns,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: and people want him whenever we have him.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I do in the book,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: as you know,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: is I rename these as becoming,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: welcoming,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: becoming,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: loving,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: mourning,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: and renewing.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 19:33
  Uh so they all have every other one and if you think about
• 19:36
  loving rituals like it's
• 19:38
  not just the marriage anymore right now I mean your kids are
• 19:42
  younger my kids are a
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: little older they're 21 but I was just with my nephew
• 19:46
  engagements now are multi-day affairs everybody has to be there
• 19:50
  they are public you
• 19:51
  have to have a party it's supposed to be it's like not secret
• 19:55
  anymore it's public
• 19:56
  and everybody comes out of the bushes okay then you've got the
• 20:01
  you know bachelor or
• 20:02
  bachelorette party okay well then all of these things and the
• 20:06
  gift giving is it
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: just shows you they're like eight rituals in one ritual so you
• 20:13
  You see high school kids posting reels of,
• 20:16
  you know,
• 20:16
  will you go to homecoming with me?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And homecoming isn't even, it isn't even prom, right?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's... Well, I think that that...
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Does he... Go ahead, please go ahead.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it seems like, is it too much at a certain point?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or is the performative aspect of it too much?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is a very interesting question, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because on the one hand,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: We are having this conversation on the internet, right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Internet, in a lot of ways, is responsible for the division, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: We have outsourced our lives to big tech.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: They create algorithms.
• 20:57
  The algorithms are designed to divide us and keep us isolated
• 21:02
  on their platforms
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: and not in real life.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And yet...
• 21:07
  and this I would say sort of is a big theme of mine right now
• 21:10
  is there is going to
• 21:12
  be a human response to the tech to what's happening and a lot
• 21:20
  of ways what I'm
• 21:20
  talking about is the human response to it but also here can the
• 21:25
  internet can be a
• 21:26
  source of connection so part of it absolutely is performative
• 21:31
  but so is part of a
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: wedding so is part of a baby wedding
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Part of it is performing, but we know that doing is believing, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: We know from Henry James,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: in the beginning of psychology in the late 19th century,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: you can act your way into believing something,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: okay?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 21:51
  I have a sort of one of my sort of grumpy views of the rise and
• 21:56
  fall and rise of
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: religion,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: whatever you want to call it,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: is that we think everybody before was a believer,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't find it surprising
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Look, ritual can be used for negative things Gangs use religion, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Terror groups use religion, right?
• 22:40
  There's a lot of ways But I think if And so if there's a social
• 22:44
  pressure And a sort
• 22:45
  of performative nature I was at Gourmet I was writing articles
• 22:48
  at Gourmet Magazine
• 22:49
  20 years ago And I wrote an article about Valentine's Day And
• 22:54
  how it's become a way
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: for people to go to restaurants
• 22:58
  and put the ring in the soup or put it on top of the cake and
• 23:02
  will you marry me and
• 23:03
  I remember somebody telling me like and I was asking what
• 23:07
  happens if someone says
• 23:08
  no right and what the restaurateur said was first of all they
• 23:12
  got to make money on
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: this and they said if you want it to be private
• 23:16
  You Can Do It Private People Coming To A Restaurant Want It To
• 23:19
  Be Performative So I
• 23:21
  Think The Performative Nature Is Not New It Just Where We
• 23:23
  Perform It Performing It
• 23:25
  On The Internet Is Is What's New Here All Right Well That's A
• 23:30
  Nice Segway Into
• 23:31
  Question Number Four One Perhaps The Most Interesting Fact I
• 23:35
  Learned From Your Book
• 23:37
  and correct me if I get this wrong is that the concept of love
• 23:40
  or the word love
• 23:42
  didn't make it into wedding vows until the 16th century is that
• 23:46
  right yeah I mean
• 23:48
  it's certainly not in England yeah so I want to know what was
• 23:51
  the most romantic
• 23:51
  thing you did for your wife around your wedding oh the most
• 23:55
  romantic thing I did
• 23:56
  for my wife around our wedding oh my god this is this reminds
• 24:01
  me I'm looking at the
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: calendar how my anniversary is coming up next week you're welcome
• 24:05
  The most romantic thing I did for my wife around my wedding was
• 24:11
  stand down from
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: something I said very firmly.
• 24:13
  So when we got married,
• 24:15
  when we got engaged,
• 24:16
  actually,
• 24:17
  and she decided,
• 24:18
  she's from Boston.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, I'm going to have a, I love her parents.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have as good a relationship with my in-laws as anyone I know.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I was like,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to have a Yankee,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to have a Yankee wedding.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And she, you come from Savannah, right?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Noah's like the third oldest synagogue in the country.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: We should get married in Georgia.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was a shock.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then she asked only,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: her mother-in-law asked for one thing,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: which was,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: would I try to help get a wedding announcement in the New York Times?
• 24:47
  Now,
• 24:47
  you mentioned that I spent a decade writing a column in the New
• 24:50
  York Times.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: What Happens?
• 25:16
  Three days before I got a call we were in on Tybee Island in
• 25:19
  Georgia and they got
• 25:20
  my phone rings if this was an actual phone I mean I don't think
• 25:24
  maybe it's a
• 25:24
  blackberry I don't really know what we even had then and it was
• 25:27
  like this is the
• 25:27
  New York Times we want to write a vows column about your
• 25:32
  wedding and I was like
• 25:33
  this is the easiest call I'm going to have all day I'm getting
• 25:35
  married in four days
• 25:36
  I've already got a no so the answer is no but let me check with
• 25:41
  let me check with
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: my wife
• 25:44
  And of course I called my wife And you can imagine what
• 25:46
  happened We got a vows call
• 25:48
  written about us And that that no became a yes So the single
• 25:51
  most romantic thing I
• 25:53
  did for my wife Was call her when I didn't want this article
• 25:56
  And I knew that
• 25:57
  secretly That she and her mother did And gave it up So what do
• 26:02
  you make of the fact
• 26:04
  That love entered into the marriage ceremony Much later than
• 26:08
  most modern people
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: would assume?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Artemis, what I make of it is that we screwed it up.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: for most of human history,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: you were getting,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: the couples were created and couples came together,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: not for romantic reasons,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: but for financial reasons,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And for things that the group decided that these two people would be at.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: would be a good fit for one another.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: The best description,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: which I read in a book by Stephanie Kuntz,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: which I love,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: which is people were,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: it was about the house,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: not the home,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like the house of Windsor, right?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was about that kind of big financial necessity.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Love and Cherish
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: All of that is a vow that comes in the Protestant Church.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: The Catholic Church didn't care about this.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Most places around the world still then,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: and many of them still now,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: have arranged or now quasi-arranged marriage.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah Yeah
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I want to say thank you to Markham for the comments in there.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: He works with Chip Conley, who's been on my podcast before.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know you guys have...
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love Chip Conley.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've announced in my own newsletter on Anonymous Your Life,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: what's today,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: tomorrow,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: that Chip and I,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: for the first time ever,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: are teaching a four-day force at NEA in September.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, so many people have come into my life, as I'm sure of yours.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Chip is just...
• 28:21
  Such a generous and wise and giving's toll and I'm thrilled
• 28:24
  Chip and I are teaching
• 28:25
  a course for four days at MEA in Santa Fe join us well okay so
• 28:28
  so it's interesting
• 28:30
  you know this kind of also went to a tooth filing oh yeah oh
• 28:36
  that's not uh
• 28:39
  That's what I'm saying is what he does and for those of you who
• 28:42
  aren't familiar
• 28:42
  with him and feel free to augment my explanation but Chip runs
• 28:47
  a center for people
• 28:48
  who are transitioning out of midlife corporate or going through
• 28:53
  late in life
• 28:53
  transitions and he creates an environment for those people to
• 28:58
  embrace that.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's a ritual.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Chip is a builder, right?
• 29:01
  He worked at Airbnb and his background is in hotels and in
• 29:05
  making people feel welcome.
• 29:07
  And he created this thing called the Modern Elder Academy and
• 29:11
  they create places
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: for people to go through together life transitions.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: He calls it midlife, but people do it across life.
• 29:19
  And I have an ongoing tug of war because I believe these have
• 29:22
  happened in midlife,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: but they happen all across life.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: As they teach a lot of ideas in my book,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Life is in the Transitions and we partnered on many projects and
• 29:31
  this will be the first time that we teach together but I think
• 29:34
  the essence of what
• 29:35
  you're asking Paul is important to underscore right that there
• 29:39
  are you know there
• 29:40
  and there are basically three things you need to create a
• 29:44
  successful ritual and the
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: first is a sense of place right it's it's it's we're going to
• 29:50
  Circuses Have Rings Trials Have Courtrooms Basketball Games
• 29:55
  Have Courts Like These
• 29:57
  Are Sacred Spaces Right And You Want To Create A Kind Of A
• 30:01
  Special Area Where You
• 30:03
  Say Outside We Were That We Were Normal Inside We Are This This
• 30:07
  Is Non-Ordinary
• 30:08
  Non-Normal Special Time And That Is The First Thing You Then
• 30:12
  Welcome People With
• 30:12
  Joy And You Say This Is Why We Are Here Like As I Say In The
• 30:16
  End Of My Book As You
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Know Like You Identify The Tensions
• 30:20
  We're here to celebrate It's Father's Day It's a wedding It's a
• 30:23
  baby naming It's a
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: graduation We're here to mourn
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: You say why we are here and what we're going to do.
• 30:34
  We're going to celebrate,
• 30:35
  we're going to mourn,
• 30:36
  we're going to laugh,
• 30:36
  we're going to lift up.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: But most of all,
• 30:38
  we're going to create a space where we can offer the person
• 30:42
  going through the
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: transition and all of us in the group a place to do what we need to do to
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: collectively restore our belief,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: faith,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: and commitment to the group.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: All right,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I try to keep these brief,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: so this will be the last question,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: and we can split after that,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: and thanks again for everybody.
• 31:01
  Before I ask it,
• 31:02
  Chip,
• 31:02
  so what else do you have coming up that's worth talking about?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, that's Chip.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm me, Bruce.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Bruce, I'm so sorry.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Bruce, I'm looking at Chip Collin.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Bruce, what do you have coming up besides the New Yorker?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I've just been out there.
• 31:20
  I'm going to be on the road a lot this fall talking about a
• 31:23
  time to gather.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: I actually,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: as we speak,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: am preparing a Father's Day post for my own Substack Non-Linear Live.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: about something close to your heart.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 31:36
  a bunch of new science that talks about the science of dad
• 31:39
  jokes and the science of
• 31:42
  the dad body and actually also postpartum depression actually
• 31:47
  coming for dad.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that dads are getting a bunch of new research.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got a lot of things going on.
• 31:53
  I do this in my weekly newsletter on Substack and I might also
• 31:57
  start going to
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Substack Live as you're teaching me how to do.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I got a new project that I'm about to start working on
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: about intergenerational families.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll be on the road a lot this fall.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Follow me and join the conversation.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to hear.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I will be in Chattanooga,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Los Angeles,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: San Francisco,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: and New York City next week telling jokes.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're interested in these kinds of conversations,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: please follow Reasonably Happy Substack.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Upcoming people include Dave Winfield and Jane Whedland from the Go-Go.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got some great folks.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And where do you,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: for people watching on my Substack and now many are live,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: where do you,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: if they want to see your performances,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: where do you list them?
• 32:36
  uh they are on my Substack page if you click on reasonably my
• 32:40
  name it'll take you to
• 32:41
  reasonably happy and I've got my show dates on there awesome so
• 32:47
  um okay question
• 32:49
  five to the extent that you want to share these what are your
• 32:52
  most important family
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: rituals um I'm happy to share um
• 33:04
  I'll do a couple and I and I want to define it I just mentioned
• 33:07
  intergenerational
• 33:08
  families and and and I've been spending a lot of time thinking
• 33:11
  about that we have
• 33:12
  our annual um the annual party that we have in my house and we
• 33:17
  should come next
• 33:17
  year paul we just had it last week I didn't think to invite you
• 33:20
  um but we now do an
• 33:21
  intergenerational party where we last week we had 98 people
• 33:26
  come half were like 50
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: plus like the parents
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Paul Ollinger paulinger
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Can I find an older woman to date?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, well, that's the spirit of it.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go with it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a ritual that's only three years old in our lives, but we love it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: In my extended family,
• 34:03
  we have gathering together on the beach on Tybee Island every
• 34:06
  year and doing what
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: we call lurk-offs.
• 34:09
  which is a competitive food tasting exercise where we taste 25
• 34:16
  different kinds of
• 34:17
  potato chips or barbecue sauces or ice creams or peanut butters
• 34:22
  rank them blindly
• 34:23
  and pick them it's a brutal sport because people often hate
• 34:27
  them but it's a
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: highlight it's absolutely
• 34:32
  A great ritual In my extended family In my immediate family
• 34:36
  I'll list a couple On
• 34:38
  Friday nights When we are together We try to do A kind of
• 34:44
  little Shabbat thing
• 34:45
  Where we light candles And bless the wine And the bread And
• 34:47
  then we play What I
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: call The noticing game
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Family Meetings
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: that we still do every week.
• 35:07
  But the ritual that we did at the end of my book is the one
• 35:10
  that comes to mind,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: which was a ritual my girls turned 20.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't do it on their 20th birthday.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: We did it when they were home from vacation.
• 35:17
  And we went to all the places in the neighborhood that were
• 35:19
  meaningful to us.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's a great place to end because I think it gets
• 35:24
  back to where we began paul which is how ritual created the
• 35:27
  world and how it can
• 35:28
  save us at the beginning of this exercise i was really
• 35:31
  interested in what's a
• 35:33
  ritual and is this and is that like a lot of things we talked
• 35:35
  about i can geek out
• 35:37
  on this forever at the end i've changed and i've realized the
• 35:41
  enemies in our
• 35:41
  pockets these these algorithms are coming at us all the time we
• 35:46
  need to we need to
• 35:47
  create what i call a ritual state of mind which is a commitment
• 35:50
  to wake up every
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: day
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I look at it as a very simple choice to face.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's virtual or ritual.
• 36:13
  It's URL or IRL And the choice is ours And if we choose ritual
• 36:18
  We can hold our We
• 36:19
  can kind of restitch our world And we can hold our society
• 36:22
  together That's great
• 36:26
  Well from your mouth to God's ears Congrats on the new book
• 36:29
  It's a time to gather
• 36:31
  You guys go out and get it Bruce thanks again for your time
• 36:33
  Great to see you again
• 36:35
  You're so great Paul Thank you for inviting me And we can do
• 36:38
  this together
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: everybody Go Dawgs See you next time
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well done.