Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 16: Water from Stone

Transcript

AM S2 Ep 16: Water from Stone · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stoic Mom.
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  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
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  of gender and
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  SPEAKER_01: identity,
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  SPEAKER_01: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
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  relationship
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  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
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  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode,
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  SPEAKER_01: Rose and I delve into the complex and painful topic of estrangement,
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  exploring its prevalence in modern society and how it relates
• 0:48
  to attachment.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Rose shares details from her personal experiences,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we discuss the role of vulnerability and forgiveness,
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  SPEAKER_01: as well as the importance of boundaries in parent-child relationships.
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  SPEAKER_01: We delve into the emotional struggle surrounding estrangement,
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  SPEAKER_01: the impact of identity on familial connections,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the journey towards healing and self-discovery.
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  We also discuss how estrangement can serve as an opportunity
• 1:11
  for personal growth
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  SPEAKER_01: and the delicate balance between love and separation.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to episode 16 of Attachment Matters.
• 1:23
  here with Rose,
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  and we've decided to step away from some of the Neufeld
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  content.
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  SPEAKER_01: We've been inspired to discuss a very relevant topic in today's world.
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  one that I'm finding myself shifting a little on and one that
• 1:40
  Rose has personal
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  SPEAKER_01: experience with that we're going to speak to a little bit more today.
• 1:46
  Yeah,
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  this was inspired by many things,
• 1:52
  including an article written by a mother.
• 1:55
  So the topic that we're thinking about today is estrangement,
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  and this is something that...
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very tender topic.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a very threatening topic.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a very scary topic.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it is epidemic, it seems like, in today's culture.
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  And,
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  you know,
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  I'm seeing some...
• 2:19
  Sorry,
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  I didn't finish my thought,
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  did I?
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  SPEAKER_01: About the article.
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  SPEAKER_01: that was part of the inspiration, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: So this was written by Lisa Morris,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  SPEAKER_01: who has,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think a relatively new Substack that,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: that you shared with me.
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  And it felt very synchronistic the day that,
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  that I read the article that you shared.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you have the title?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've got it right here.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is, uh, called, sorry, I'm scrolling down.
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  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: The Unbearable Truth, Embracing Pain Through Surrender.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: How Letting Go Unveils the Quiet Love Beneath the Hurt.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I believe her Substack is called Beyond the Silence.
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  SPEAKER_01: Beyond the Silence, yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think she's got another organization called The Estrange Network.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: So this is the work she does.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And through personal experience of having her daughter cut her off,
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  SPEAKER_01: go no contact for three years.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I don't have the details of why that happened.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  I don't think it has anything to do,
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  as far as I know,
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  with this topic that you and I
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  come together around parents that are dealing with
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  trans-identified kids.
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  And I think that's important to understand too,
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  that this epidemic goes beyond that.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is not something that is just specific to this world.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is happening
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  SPEAKER_01: Frequently.
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  And for reasons that I think it's important for us to attempt
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  to understand.
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  SPEAKER_01: And some other topics that I can see us touching on today,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: vulnerability,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is something that we've been discussing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Forgiveness.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: What does that really mean?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think we have a lot of misconceptions about forgiveness.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, boundaries.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, defenses.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  many of the topics that we have explored in the past are going
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  to come back into
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  SPEAKER_01: today's conversation,
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  SPEAKER_01: I imagine.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the big, the elephant, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Attachment, you know, being the water we're swimming in or the elephant.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: When you say the elephant, I just... Sorry for interrupting.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sorry about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know that...
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  SPEAKER_01: among my community,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: when I hear the elephant,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's the elephant in the room and it's the trans identity.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, Oh, okay.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So my mind immediately goes there.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's so interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's so interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, well that would definitely be a part of the conversation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I was referring to was more of this, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess two different, I don't know, is it a metaphor or a,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  a visual symbol of the story of the blind sages who are like
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  touching the tail or
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  SPEAKER_00: touching the belly or touching the toes and describing all those pieces.
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  And what Neufeld would talk about with attachment being kind of
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  the full picture
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  that all of these different pieces are components of this
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  bigger picture of,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the strive for,
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  SPEAKER_00: for proximity and how it's,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the,
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  I don't know what I would say is a part of the threads that are
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  weaving together
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  SPEAKER_00: the bigger whole.
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  SPEAKER_00: With the whole being attachment?
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  SPEAKER_00: Of course, if we're talking... I don't know, this human experience.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess what I'm saying is,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: if we're talking about estrangement,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're swimming in the waters of attachment.
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  We're swimming in the waters of attachment in the conversation
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  of estrangement.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think another...
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  topic that's on my mind it's the one we've been exploring in
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  the tapestry which is
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  the the SMP coaching community um is love yeah you know and and
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  our misconceptions
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  about love and how does love relate to attachment what's the
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  difference is it the
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  SPEAKER_01: same um I don't know that it is um
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, maybe that will be part of today's discussion as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: Where shall we dive in?
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  SPEAKER_01: I will say...
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, do you want me to go or was something coming?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want you to go.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely want you to go.
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  I have been very surprised at myself lately and the shift in my
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  own sort of
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  SPEAKER_01: philosophy and thinking when it comes to estrangement.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I would say I'm still...
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  SPEAKER_01: or I'm really experiencing a paradox potentially here.
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  I definitely think that it is used as a form of emotional
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  manipulation in today's
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  SPEAKER_01: world as a way to exert control.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'm very...
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that it doesn't always have to be that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that sometimes it is a legitimate boundary that,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think a parent might need to,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  SPEAKER_01: instigate at least temporarily.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: Potentially.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is what I want to discuss with you,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  because I think this is going to sound like a very different
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  message than has come
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  SPEAKER_01: out of attachment matters in the past.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  And so maybe that's how we tackle it is to explore if there's
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  ever a time where
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  SPEAKER_01: it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's legitimate is the word that comes to mind,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: or
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  what is called for in a situation yeah yeah when something is
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  too much to bear
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  right right or when your own dignity is on the line mm-hmm
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  mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  You know,
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  it's interesting because I can't help but just jump right into
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  one of my own stories.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's one that I've already shared in season one.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_00: So forgive me if I'm going off track here at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, please.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think this will very much help.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  But I guess,
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  you know,
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  it's very hard for me to tell any story without some backstory.
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  So just to remind listeners or for new listeners,
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  you know,
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  in season one,
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  I shared,
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  you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: some of my story around my own estrangement with my parents.
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  SPEAKER_00: And essentially,
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  SPEAKER_00: to sum it up very quickly,
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  SPEAKER_00: and there could be hours and hours and hours of conversation about this,
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  but I feel like some of my estrangements began just with going
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  off to college and
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  SPEAKER_00: getting into activism and sort of the more
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  SPEAKER_00: leftist worldview,
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  SPEAKER_00: the more woke worldview and coming home and kind of preaching and being
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  SPEAKER_00: self-righteous and really,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: wanting my parents to come along with me on that kind of project,
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  SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think there was...
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot going on attachment wise,
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  SPEAKER_00: emotional,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: this level of emotional estrangement,
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  SPEAKER_00: even though we,
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  and like cognitive estrangement almost with like different
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  beliefs and worldviews.
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  And,
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  but we still had a relationship,
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  you know,
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  we still spent time together.
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  SPEAKER_00: We still,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: interacted,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: there were still attachments there,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in these different layers,
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  SPEAKER_00: even if there was some level of estrangement at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: as my journey continued to unfold,
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  SPEAKER_00: I actually moved back home,
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  SPEAKER_00: I had gone away for college,
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  SPEAKER_00: I moved back home.
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  SPEAKER_00: because I missed them so much.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be back home.
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  SPEAKER_00: I missed home.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so, you know, like you're talking about paradox.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
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  SPEAKER_00: What there was so many paradoxes involved and still are,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in relationship with my,
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  SPEAKER_00: with my parents.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: at a certain point,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: parallel to me kind of coming out at,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: as same sex attracted at that time,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was like,
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  I had also developed a relationship with my therapist who kind
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  of guided me on that
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  SPEAKER_00: journey,
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  SPEAKER_00: but she sort of became what I would call my primary attachment.
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  SPEAKER_00: So again, another like deeper wedge was sort of, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: set between me and my parents through that attachment to that therapist.
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  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
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  my direct experience of what I was going through was this like
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  profound self
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  SPEAKER_00: discovery,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: and almost like a spiritual journey is how I experienced this journey.
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  you know books have been written about this in recent years
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  this idea of the modern
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  self the secret sacred self that i'm discovering this profound
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  authenticity um in
• 13:06
  honoring my you know sexual identity and feeling like you know
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  that's the journey
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  SPEAKER_00: that i'm kind of meant to be um unfolding so
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's all unfolding.
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  And when the point hit where I fell in love with the person
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  who's now my partner,
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  SPEAKER_00: my wife,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's when I really wanted my parents to accept her personally.
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  SPEAKER_00: And except my relationship,
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  SPEAKER_00: I had come out to them a few years prior,
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  SPEAKER_00: but had,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  it hadn't been a ultimatum at any point because I didn't have a
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  relationship or a
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: serious one,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: at least.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of hadn't hit that brick wall,
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  SPEAKER_00: which eventually was like my mother saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that that my partner wouldn't be welcome in her home.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of when the first estrangement began.
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  And,
• 14:07
  you know,
• 14:07
  I'm sure there'll be other stories to tell eventually about
• 14:10
  that.
• 14:10
  But I will say that,
• 14:13
  you know,
• 14:13
  we did partially heal that when my son was born.
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  SPEAKER_00: My parents wanted a relationship with him.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I said,
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  SPEAKER_00: you will have,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: you will only have a relationship with my child if you accept my partner.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they agreed.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: They agreed at that point.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we did some healing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was the second estrangement.
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  So long story short,
• 14:39
  we had a period of a few years where we had healed a lot of
• 14:45
  that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: But then it was this,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: what I perceived to be another thing where I had to be true to this,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: what I perceived was this inner...
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: identity of my son saying he wanted to be a girl at a very young age.
• 15:04
  And I felt like I had no choice but to affirm that and do a
• 15:11
  social transition and
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: all of those things.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was like,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: to be a good person to continue on this trajectory,
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  I had to force my parents to go along with it or force everyone
• 15:26
  in our lives to go
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: along with it.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a familiar story.
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  SPEAKER_00: We see it on the internet where many of you are living it,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in so many different ways with older children,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: but this was kind of me being
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, that true believer within the ideology.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And despite my own extreme dissonance and discomfort,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:48
  this was my belief system and I felt like I had to go along
• 15:51
  with the program.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, um,
• 15:55
  So that kind of so I initiated the second estrangement where my
• 15:58
  mother had put down
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: the ultimatum the first time I put down the ultimatum the second time.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that was,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:05
  either you go along with the name and the pronouns or you don't
• 16:08
  get to see us.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get to see your grandchildren.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get to see me, you know.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And who is hard to talk about it?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 16:22
  But you coming in first with this rethinking of parents' side
• 16:27
  of this is kind of
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: what inspired me to go back to tell this story.
• 16:33
  And like I said,
• 16:34
  my goodness,
• 16:34
  there's so many chapters in this book of estrangement.
• 16:38
  in my life but um there was a point and i talked about this in
• 16:44
  season one there was
• 16:45
  a point where my father had to put down a boundary and he did
• 16:54
  and this was kind of
• 16:55
  um it's interesting because there's two stories i came into
• 16:58
  taiwan to tell they
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: both involve a death of a of an uncle but um
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: When my father's boundary came in, it was after the death of an uncle.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it was in the second period of estrangement.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And during that whole period,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I had conversations out loud with my dad all the time,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: alone,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: alone,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: driving in the car.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was millions of letters I wanted to write him.
• 17:37
  and a lot of them were about my own questioning of whether or
• 17:42
  not what we were
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: doing was right,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: and my own inner tension,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: my own inner struggles.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, none of those ever happened.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: No letters were sent.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 17:55
  but I always was like in conversations and I've talked in past
• 18:00
  episodes about like
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: the dreams I would have about trying to convince my parents of things.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: So my,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: my,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would say my closest uncle on my mother's side passed away,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: June,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: maybe like six years ago now,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: He,
• 18:22
  it was almost this like opening came for me to reconnect with
• 18:27
  my mother and my
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: father during his last hours and his transition.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: He had had a heart attack and,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: but it was hospitalized and they were trying to,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: save him.
• 18:37
  And it was,
• 18:40
  you know,
• 18:41
  it opened up this path for my,
• 18:43
  to communicate with my parents and,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked my mother,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: after some back and forth texts,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: and I asked her to say goodbye to him for me.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a big deal.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was a really big deal because I had...
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know, become so hard, hardened against them, you know?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it was this layer of softening, this layer of vulnerability, um,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I trusted her.
• 19:21
  I softened enough that I could trust her in this grief and this
• 19:28
  experience of him
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: dying to represent me to him,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: to send this message to him.
• 19:36
  um and they they offered in that time to pay for me to fly home
• 19:41
  for the funeral and
• 19:41
  i did i took them up on the offer and um i flew home well i
• 19:47
  flew to the um you know
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: near the funeral
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I went with my younger brother.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I stayed by myself.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't stay with family,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:57
  but it was a very profound experience for me to be there with
• 20:01
  my family and all of
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: the traditions of storytelling.
• 20:04
  And,
• 20:05
  you know,
• 20:06
  my cousins hosted,
• 20:09
  you know,
• 20:10
  after the wake of huge gathering.
• 20:12
  And,
• 20:14
  you know,
• 20:15
  I'm from a huge family and a Catholic one,
• 20:18
  even though many of my cousins have
• 20:22
  you know,
• 20:22
  some have gone more Protestant or whatever,
• 20:25
  but they all have a lot of kids.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a huge family.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember being at the house and just seeing,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: this is like 2am,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:34
  the night after the wake and all of the cousins and the cousins
• 20:38
  kids are up late at
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: night and just feeling that sense of like connection to this
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: the beauty of my family,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: even though I felt rejected by them and like,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: so many ways it was still just like this profound connecting.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't know what I would call it.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just that, that, that sense of home, you know, that sense of belonging.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I barely spoke to my parents that weekend at the funeral.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: I barely spoke to them.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: They tried to connect with me, even though they had bought my...
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: My plane ticket, you know, I didn't feel like I owed them anything.
• 21:26
  And it was later that summer that we had come home for a visit
• 21:31
  and my dad reached
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: out to me and he wanted to see me.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I usually before writing like an email back or anything,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would like run it by my partner or show someone like,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: should I send this?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And for whatever reason, this time I didn't.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't run it by anyone.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I just wrote back an email saying like, because he was like, I'm sad.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I'm sad.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I miss you.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I bet you're sad, too.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're talking about like vulnerability and defense,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: maybe this is kind of almost like a perfect situation.
• 22:07
  example of that of the the topic we've been covering in recent
• 22:12
  episodes you know
• 22:15
  while my heart had softened in these profound ways around my
• 22:20
  uncle's death it was
• 22:21
  like kind of right after that the the stone walls were back and
• 22:29
  it was you're sad
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sad you know I didn't feel sad I didn't feel sad mm-hmm
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: you had mentioned earlier you were hardened against them.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'm living my life.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on the right track.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing these wonderful things.
• 22:50
  And so I wrote him back an email that was just like,
• 22:54
  you didn't know how to support me.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm supporting my child.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I didn't think it was that bad of an email, but, um,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it was, you know, self-righteous.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it was essentially just like, yeah, you're sad.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sad, you know.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, if you can't accept this, then you won't see me.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a no.
• 23:24
  And one of the ways that my parents had stayed connected to me
• 23:30
  was that they would
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: send me like a check for my birthday every year.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not a huge check, but like a few hundred dollars, you know, every year.
• 23:37
  And he had already sent that check at this time and I hadn't
• 23:41
  cashed it yet.
• 23:42
  And it wasn't till a month after this home visit and the email
• 23:45
  was sent that I
• 23:47
  ended up going to the bank and I went to deposit the check and
• 23:50
  it bounced.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I was shocked.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was shocked that my dad had canceled this check.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: That says a lot right there, how surprising it was.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because everything else, he had always forgiven.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I happened to be doing the Neufeld Intensive 2 at the time,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: or I had done it the year before.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was like fresh on me.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was something about, you know, it's the separation complex.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much about these primal emotions.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember...
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: and I,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I am,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: I feel so embarrassed about,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: this reality of how I lived during that time,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: but it,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: the financial piece,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: and we've talked about this,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: this is the context in which I had told the story last season,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 25:09
  it was always like,
• 25:09
  well,
• 25:10
  should the financial piece was always a part of it.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was always a part of this relation or not with my parents.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: once the financial was taken away,
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: that stone heart of mine,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: somehow,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: somehow like there's a crack.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember like sitting in the car
• 25:36
  And being like,
• 25:37
  once the money was gone,
• 25:38
  it was like,
• 25:42
  I finally felt the separation.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Existential, I imagine.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like your safety net just dropped out from under you.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And not just the financial.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I would imagine this was like the whole net.
• 26:00
  experience like oh they're not there yes yes isn't that
• 26:04
  interesting the financial
• 26:05
  became emotional or triggered the emotional unlocked the
• 26:10
  emotional right and it was
• 26:13
  like um yeah it was like this layer had been peeled back or
• 26:20
  removed that was like
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: almost in the way of
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: of my heart, you know?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 26:27
  and I remember just sitting in the passenger seat of the car
• 26:31
  and I don't know how
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: else to describe this,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: but it was like,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: it did feel like a stone,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: like I kid you not,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: there was like one tear.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: One tear trickling out of the corner of my eye.
• 26:51
  And I remember just sitting,
• 26:51
  it was like sitting in this darkness almost.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like this one tear came up from the depths and trickled out.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like amazing now because I like went through,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: once we reconnected and healed,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: it was like,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: my gosh,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: the damn burst.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was just crying the tears of like so many years of estrangement.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: But in that moment, it was one tear.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So a long story short,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I texted my dad and he was like,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: yep,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I canceled the check,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I gave it a few days.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I let that one tear trickle out and I just sat with the separation,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: with the separation,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: the emotional separation.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: For the first time.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not kidding you.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is like probably a total of like six years or,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: what felt like,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: of both with the two combined.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like the first time I felt it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first time I felt it.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I reached back out and I apologized.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I'm so sorry.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry for the email I sent you.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to have a hard heart.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know that I came to you with a hard heart.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sorry.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he softened right back up to me and was like, I love you.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I forgive you.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I say all of this because right away when you say,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: my perspective has shifted.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes parents have to have boundaries to maintain their own dignity.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what my dad did.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: The term doormat comes up quite a bit,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: parents feeling like a doormat and that's,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: that's what I hear there.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that's always connected to dignity.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, that was your dad drawing a line to protect his dignity.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: He had offered unconditional love,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:17
  an unconditional support over and over and over and it felt
• 29:23
  like it had been thrown
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: back in his face.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was for him to keep doing that was undignified probably.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I do look back on that and it's not like,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: there's no promises here,
• 29:46
  but I do look back on that as like a watershed moment for me
• 29:53
  that who knows,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: like who knows how much that did or didn't like that.
• 29:59
  I just,
• 30:00
  I see it all as like this,
• 30:04
  like,
• 30:04
  you know,
• 30:04
  it's like these moments of like,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: cracks in the wall, you know, cracks in that dam.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not like,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 30:15
  my father doing this led to me realizing that I made a mistake
• 30:18
  with my son.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are so many other pieces,
• 30:20
  but I do feel like it was a watershed and it can't be
• 30:25
  disconnected from that
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: either,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 30:31
  Well,
• 30:32
  I think because of the,
• 30:34
  what you brought it before,
• 30:35
  the separation complex,
• 30:37
  because of,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: The embodied sense of separation, I think, that that created for you.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was a wake-up call.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I was so defended against it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So this is wild.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: When we're coming into this episode,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder how this will connect to vulnerability and the defenses.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And here I am,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: recounting the story,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm like,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: that was just,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: those defenses...
• 31:09
  And that's maybe,
• 31:10
  you know,
• 31:11
  if it's helpful to people,
• 31:12
  it's like,
• 31:13
  I didn't know I was defended.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I had no consciousness.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: just like I didn't know I had a belief system,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: it was just the water I swam in.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was so unconscious.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was so embedded in my identity,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: in my worldview and my,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: like that's what Neufeld talks about this.
• 31:38
  You know,
• 31:39
  we talk about gender ideology,
• 31:43
  what he links ideology to identity.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, this is a part of identity.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I had it.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: It just was.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a very important piece of this.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because identity feels so...
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when you don't know.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: You think it's who you are.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: You think it's who you are.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I also want to say, we all have belief systems.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is part of being human.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you think you don't have a belief system...
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're delusional, right?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 32:36
  It's just being the more consciousness you can bring to that
• 32:39
  and understanding that
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: that's what it is and that identity is not who you are.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's how you increase your agency.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that comes up in this article written by Lisa Morris, right?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: She talks a lot about the higher self.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was curious because you brought up...
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know, that profound self-discovery and that was interesting.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: It sounded like you were touching on that, that authenticity.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And yet,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:16
  I think that that type of development in the early part of
• 33:22
  adulthood is very
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: different than what it is for parents in midlife and
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's part of the dynamic.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is what your child is doing.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there's some individuation in that that is important.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have such a hard time.
• 33:45
  This is another thing I said I wasn't going to do before we
• 33:49
  started recording,
• 33:50
  but I have such a hard time not looking back at that experience
• 33:54
  of mine and
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: feeling,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: not feeling like I was absolutely wrong.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Just absolutely wrong.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:03
  you know and and there's like i said just my gosh any little
• 34:06
  piece of this topic we
• 34:07
  could or the story my own story like i feel like we could just
• 34:11
  talk for about it
• 34:12
  for hours but i there is this this line like i can't i think
• 34:18
  it's like carl s
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: truman he's a christian author and he talks about
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: the modern sense of self.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And he kind of goes into that to look at and to try to explain,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: quite honestly,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: like the LGBT experience in modern days for Christians to understand,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: this is an idea that our individual,
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: what is it called?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like the
• 34:45
  individual expressive self or it has like a name that this is
• 34:49
  like almost this
• 34:49
  religious practice or this religious worldview that there is
• 34:54
  this like the
• 34:55
  authentic self is this sacred essence of a person that needs to
• 35:01
  be expressed and
• 35:02
  it's kind of like trans id like all you know whether sexual
• 35:06
  identity like all these
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: things kind of flow out of that construct now i haven't read his book
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I've heard people talk about it.
• 35:13
  And when I heard this idea of the secret,
• 35:15
  sacred self,
• 35:16
  I was like,
• 35:16
  I was all in on that.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I happen to not be anymore.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: I happen to not be all in on that anymore.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we are not talking about the same thing.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Secret, sacred self is not the same as the higher self, I would say.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
• 35:34
  But I mean,
• 35:34
  depending on who's talking about it,
• 35:36
  maybe someone does feel that way.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I felt that way when I was in it.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where these subjective things get so confusing.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the power of belief, I think, is also key here.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Belief is incredibly, incredibly powerful.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we all have beliefs.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Cause we could take, I mean, I just, that are shaping our lives.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to put that in your beliefs will shape your experience.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a given.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to say, yeah, go ahead.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to say,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would pull those two things apart,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: this idea of a higher self versus a secret,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: sacred self.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 36:33
  depending on the cultural soup you're in and what you're
• 36:37
  identifying with and these
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: kind of religious type concepts we take on,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: you could call that your higher self.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have...
• 36:48
  many friends who may say it that believe that you know what i
• 36:51
  mean so it's um for
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: some people they are gonna be intertwined you know um yeah we're in this
• 37:02
  conversation may see it differently yeah and and we're probably
• 37:06
  a little down a
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: rabbit hole here but um yeah i i think that's true yeah
• 37:13
  But I think that this is helpful to understand because I do
• 37:18
  think there are
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: religious archetypal things going on in the human experience.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: And they are very powerful.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And how... 100%.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: How we engage each other around these things can be very, very loaded.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think understanding...
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: how entrenched we are,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: when we don't know we're swimming in water,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: that if we can come to understand that,
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: it is going to empower us to,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: goodness,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: completely change your experience.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you're able to understand that this is what is happening,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to help you to communicate better.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to help you to be in a healthier relationship.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to help you to better,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to see others and,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: and allow them to be separate from you.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Distinct maybe is a better word.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Distinct from you.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, for sure.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that is so helpful for you to put it that way,
• 38:35
  because I think part of why I even spoke to that as I was
• 38:41
  talking about my story is
• 38:44
  to help parents understand that your child may be experiencing
• 38:50
  that exact almost
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: spiritual journey.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: that's very hard to figure out how to relate to,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: but in them,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: it may be like,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: this is a sacred authenticity,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: this self discovery,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 39:26
  Yeah,
• 39:27
  so just to know,
• 39:28
  like you're saying,
• 39:28
  just to know that,
• 39:31
  that that isn't just like a...
• 39:34
  something that they're necessarily kind of bull crapping about,
• 39:37
  like,
• 39:38
  you know what I mean?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like that, that's like, that is what they are experiencing.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and so potentially, yes.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to float an idea that's coming to me right now.
• 39:50
  It's,
• 39:50
  I think it's been sort of unformed in my mind as we were
• 39:54
  approaching this conversation.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: And this has just been on my mind a lot lately that when you're
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, this might need some context too.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of Lisa Miller's work, Dr. Lisa Miller.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: She does a lot of work around spirituality,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: and how that is embedded in our biology,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: okay?
• 40:17
  That it is part of us,
• 40:19
  you know,
• 40:19
  and that young adults are expecting,
• 40:24
  right?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this is that sort of archetypal experience.
• 40:27
  There is an expectation embedded in them that they are going to
• 40:31
  have a spiritual
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: awakening,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: They will be driven toward that.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: And our culture does not provide that for them anymore.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so this is filling needs for them, important needs.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: So with that in mind,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was agnostic,
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: wholeheartedly,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: but I would also say,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: rationalist,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: materialist,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I was.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And what helped me,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: this is interesting,
• 41:06
  was the experience I had in my young adulthood of moving away
• 41:12
  from my parents'
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: belief system and knowing how upsetting that was for my mother.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know, but being able to sort of see that same thing.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it was hard.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 41:23
  so where I'm going with this is this sort of emotional
• 41:26
  estrangement that when your
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: child adopts a belief system and I,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: and adopt sounds like it's conscious.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think this is, I think that's important to understand too.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we think our kids have a choice and I'm going to say bullshit.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: they are,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: they are having what you are just,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: you described,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: they're having a spiritual experience.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so understanding that too,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think is also really important around their amount of agency in this.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: so all that being said,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that when they are...
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the word I'm looking for here is.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Assume, right?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to imply...
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: agency or choice in this.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: But when they get converted, even that sounds like there's agency there.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, into a belief system that is different from yours.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: that is going to feel like an emotional... Get colonized.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean... Yes.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but I think we all are, right?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to be careful here too.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that as... No, no.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard people say that about more neutral terms, but yeah.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: They absorb it.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: They absorb a belief system that is very different from yours.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to feel like estrangement.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 43:02
  And it's that separation that you talked about that is going to
• 43:06
  be so threatening for parents.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like they've lost their kid.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 43:11
  And I think that's going to be more so the case if you are not
• 43:16
  aware of your own belief system.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: If there's a lack of consciousness around your own identity.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you are entrenched in your own identity...
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: that separation is going to be even more stark and painful.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Could you say more about that?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we're invited to do,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: and I think that it's part of the invitation embedded in this experience,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: is to come to transcend our own identity and
• 43:56
  It doesn't mean that you give up your opinions or your,
• 44:00
  you know,
• 44:01
  your values.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I would say it's getting really clear on your values is helpful.
• 44:07
  But thinking that everybody needs to share your values to be a
• 44:10
  good person or to be
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: worthy,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: to have a relationship with,
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 44:18
  Otherwise,
• 44:18
  I think we get threatened when somebody holds a different
• 44:22
  worldview.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: That if we're not able to transcend the identity and allow others theirs,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of intolerable.
• 44:38
  And I think this comes back to a lot of the maturity
• 44:41
  conversation we've been having
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: and that capacity to hold two truths.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that the world is not black and white.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that humanity is not divided in good guys and bad guys.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh boy.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I got to jump in here too.
• 45:10
  So I hope,
• 45:15
  I'm sorry if I lose the thread that you're on,
• 45:17
  but let's come back to it.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: But you're talking about that right there in this transcending energy.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that was also part of my, so being the child, the adult child.
• 45:30
  So we're talking about the parents of the children having to go
• 45:34
  through that not
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: good,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: bad,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: wrong,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: but it does bring me to the story that I also wanted to share today.
• 45:42
  So I'm just going to go there and then we'll see where it goes
• 45:44
  from there.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: But, um, um,
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I just shared the story,
• 45:50
  kind of the big trajectory of my experience of a stranger with
• 45:54
  my parents,
• 45:55
  that cracking point where my father put down a boundary to
• 45:59
  uphold his own dignity
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: and how that was like the crack in the stone of my heart towards them.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: my tear trickles out and then,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: later to unfold that I,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:13
  come out of my ideology to save my son and heal my relationship
• 46:20
  with my parents as
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: an outcome of that as well.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the full picture of the story.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if we rewind a little bit,
• 46:31
  into estrangement part one which was when my mother said no
• 46:39
  homosexual will is
• 46:40
  allowed in my house and my partner couldn't go into my parents
• 46:44
  home and so then i
• 46:45
  said well i'm not going to see you guys any more than either um
• 46:50
  in that time period
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: There was the first death of an uncle,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: not the first death of an uncle ever,
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: but there's like two,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: these two,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what you call them,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: just like.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Intense,
• 47:10
  poignant experiences in that estrangement story with my parents
• 47:16
  that were both
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: around funerals.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: And both death of uncles.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: So this was the first of those two.
• 47:26
  And this was my dad's brother,
• 47:28
  my dad's eldest brother,
• 47:29
  who also was my godfather.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this was, he was, I'm gonna cry again.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Both of these uncles were tricksters.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: They were like these trickster spirits.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one was blood related.
• 47:46
  The other had married my,
• 47:48
  actually my godmother on my other,
• 47:50
  my mom's side.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, this, he, I loved this uncle.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: He was humble.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: He was like salt of the earth,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: open heart,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: could count all the cards in the card game,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: made his grandchildren pick up sticks in his yard to like teach them,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: hard work,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: lost the use of both of his knees,
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: in old age,
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: but like his wife would find him out kneeling on the grass,
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: like crawling,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: pulling out thistles in the yard because he still wanted to work.
• 48:28
  Like he was,
• 48:30
  I mean,
• 48:30
  to this day,
• 48:31
  just one of the most incredible people I've ever known.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not married yet,
• 48:37
  but I'm like in love and this funeral happens is coming up and
• 48:43
  I'm estranged from
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: my parents and
• 48:46
  and i'm with my therapist and she's like you know you should
• 48:51
  take you know your
• 48:54
  partner to the funeral and i'm like i need to take my partner
• 48:58
  to the funeral my
• 48:59
  partner never once and to this day she's like i never insisted
• 49:04
  i never needed that
• 49:06
  but i was like she's my partner i'm gonna stay true to this i'm
• 49:10
  taking her to this
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: funeral and um
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow my dad figured out that I was going to take her.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even remember how we were texting,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: but he texted me the night before and he said,
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am begging you,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: please do not bring,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: your partner to the funeral.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: This, this is going to shame me, you know, begged me not to do it.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is the death of his eldest brother.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm bringing her.
• 49:46
  And my cousin,
• 49:50
  my uncle's son,
• 49:52
  eldest,
• 49:52
  not eldest son,
• 49:53
  middle son,
• 49:54
  they've got a lot of kids.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so many cousins everywhere.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: But the cousin that I would say I was,
• 50:00
  the male cousin I was closest to had already asked me because I
• 50:04
  was a godchild to
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: be,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: to do one of the readings.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: There was like two readings in this funeral.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was invited to do one of them.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was also going to be a pallbearer and carry the casket.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I kid you not,
• 50:21
  the morning of the funeral when my mom had found out that I was
• 50:27
  to do a reading and
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to be bringing this girlfriend,
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: she called the priest.
• 50:37
  And she asked him,
• 50:39
  she told him,
• 50:40
  and she told him that I should not do the reading.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so my cousin called me the morning of the funeral.
• 50:49
  This is the son of the man who has just passed away and said,
• 50:52
  I'm so sorry.
• 50:53
  I don't want to be the one to tell you this,
• 50:56
  but you can't do the reading.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, my dad wouldn't have cared.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: My dad wouldn't have cared.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: But this is what the priest, this is what your mom did.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what the priest said.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 51:15
  So like just to give listeners like you can't even imagine like
• 51:24
  the imprint of that
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: story on my heart,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: And my father, you know, I took my partner to the funeral.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: We went, you know, everything.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Looking back, it's like, you know, I'll get there in a moment.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: But like, we...
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: My dad did reach out to me after.
• 51:49
  He wanted to connect to Grieva's brother one-on-one,
• 51:52
  but I kind of used that entire hike.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: We went on a hike to just kind of try to convince him.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was like one of the futility dreams,
• 51:58
  like trying to convince him why this is who I truly was and how
• 52:03
  wonderful my
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: partner was and just trying and trying and trying to convince him.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: Totally futile.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Totally futile.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: But this was a real occurrence.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: This was like a real occurrence.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:20
  And so,
• 52:21
  so this is all to say,
• 52:22
  you're talking about like,
• 52:24
  we're trying to transcend this.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're coming to this place of maturity of like,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: seeing this could be true while this can be true.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: This story is one that I told my friends, I repeated it.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime I wanted to like shock people into like,
• 52:43
  comprehending like how terrible my parents were just can you
• 52:49
  believe this is like
• 52:51
  the worst thing a mother could ever do to a child this is how
• 52:56
  terrible she was and
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: through that crucible of like reconnecting you know getting
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: my son off the trans highway,
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: they taking that off ramp,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: rolling back the social transition,
• 53:16
  my whole identity and ideology collapsing and re navigating the
• 53:24
  world and healing
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: that relation to my parents.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I started to think about the story again.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I forgave them.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I forgave them.
• 53:43
  And it was maybe like if my parents and I kind of started
• 53:47
  healing in the summer,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: by that Christmas,
• 53:51
  I remember my dad having just gone to like a mass and like
• 53:55
  hearing the priests
• 53:55
  afterwards talking about like Jesus calling us to like see the
• 54:01
  things that we've
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: done to others.
• 54:06
  And like using the opportunity of like,
• 54:09
  because coming into the world to like,
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: ask for forgiveness.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he called me and he asked me for forgiveness.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked him for forgiveness and we never spoke to the specificity.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this is very out of character for someone like me.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, so neurotic.
• 54:32
  I'm just like,
• 54:34
  so detailed,
• 54:35
  so gifted and talented,
• 54:37
  you know,
• 54:37
  brain where it's like,
• 54:40
  I'm going to write the specific,
• 54:42
  like line one,
• 54:43
  this is what you did to me.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear you say it.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Line two, this is what you did to me.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear you say it.
• 54:49
  Line three,
• 54:50
  you know,
• 54:51
  that level of specificity that I'm like driven towards that.
• 54:56
  And for like this new chapter of my life,
• 54:59
  it was like,
• 55:00
  I don't need the specifics.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need the specifics.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just can...
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: do the bigger act, which is like, I forgive you.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: I forgive you.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he, and ask him the same, you know, ask him the same.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just, I don't know why I had wanted to share the story.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when I hear,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: what you're speaking to in terms of this transcending,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: this maturation of on the one hand,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: on the other hand,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I am,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: I went through a period of a couple of years where I was like,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was the one who was wrong.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was the one who was wrong in that story.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I flipped it one 80.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why did I push?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why did I insist that,
• 56:04
  on what I did,
• 56:05
  that was wrong,
• 56:06
  you know,
• 56:07
  and I really internalized that feeling.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I had to,
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: I had to,
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe now just as you lay this out in this conversation,
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I am able to come to a place where I can say,
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: on the one hand,
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: this is where I was coming from.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: And on the other hand, this is where my parents were coming from.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I can actually have compassion for both.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 56:43
  And I just want to...
• 56:44
  And that's as the child in the scenario,
• 56:46
  as the adult child.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's also... As the middle-aged adult child.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: Can I break that out?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you are not... 48 years old.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that it can take that long.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's no shortcutting any of this.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact... There's no shortcuts.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: We can't even really expect anybody younger...
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to do this transcending.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: if they're capable of it,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: that is amazing maturity,
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: highly unusual maturity that honestly typically comes.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: Usually if somebody matures that young,
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: it is through traumatic experiences because it is pain that matures us.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:44
  And you bring up forgiveness and I just,
• 57:47
  wow,
• 57:48
  I feel like that needs a lot of unpacking.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I, I think it's, it's a loaded word.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I, and I have some people who, uh, I'm not sure which camp I fall.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: I actually looked it up.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: to see what I'd find online about the concept of forgiveness.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is it something that you grant somebody else?
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: I had seen this little phrase in the last few days about,
• 58:25
  and it was around the ideas of moral judgment versus like
• 58:32
  intuition and how to know
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: the difference.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: But what came up was, let me find it.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: Forgiveness isn't moral.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's energetic and clenching.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love that phrase.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: Energetic.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: and it's something we do for ourselves to release,
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: release this thing that has us all bound up,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: and full of feelings that are unhealthy for us in our relationships,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think the need for somebody else's forgiveness is interesting.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think you can make amends.
• 59:21
  And I don't know,
• 59:25
  can you make amends without,
• 59:27
  without being granted the forgiveness?
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: And now, yeah, I don't think my dad was coming from that place at all.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think the point of me telling that part of the story is to say,
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: We both came to a place of acknowledging we had done things wrong.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: You were taking responsibility.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't mean it like he came to me like, I need you to forgive me.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like, I am taking responsibility for my mistakes.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I did too.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: We use different language.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:09
  But the energy of it was an acknowledgement of wrongdoing or
• 1:00:15
  mistake,
• 1:00:16
  whatever you want to say.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to own it.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to specify.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't say that, but we didn't specify.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like...
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: I am sorry for what, what mom did to you at your uncle's wedding.
• 1:00:30
  And I'm like,
• 1:00:31
  I'm sorry for what I did to you at your brother's wedding or a
• 1:00:34
  funeral.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, not wedding and funeral.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it wasn't like we didn't get granular with it.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was the energy of like, I own, I have hurt you.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: I did something that wounded you.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I am sorry.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was more of like an apology.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, then what we did was apologize to each other.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then the forgiveness, I think, is that's the letting go.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: the letting go,
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld doesn't talk about this in his classes,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: but in the one live I ever went to,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: he,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: this was one of the topics was forgiveness.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, the deck took a few things away from it.
• 1:01:24
  A lot of it is very cloudy now,
• 1:01:26
  blurry in my memory,
• 1:01:28
  but he talks about foregoing justice.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't mean you forget,
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: like this is talked about a lot,
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't mean you forget the pain or how it impacted you,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:47
  but it is like you're saying the letting go and that you're
• 1:01:50
  letting go of justice
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: needing to be served.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: Justice is probably its own topic.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're not clinging to this, like justice must be served, you know?
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's,
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: that's this little,
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love this short little paragraph,
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: people struggle with forgiveness due to factors like emotional hurdles,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: a fear of vulnerability and
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's vulnerability again.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: To forgive is vulnerable.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: A desire for justice or a belief that forgiveness is a form of weakness.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:35
  Common challenges include confusing forgiveness with forgetting
• 1:02:38
  or condoning the offense.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is not the same thing.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Waiting for an apology, right?
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like that one just gets me, honestly.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: That demand for an apology is
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just find that one interesting.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I think because that seems like a power play too, right?
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is a controlling thing.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:08
  And then holding onto anger as a source of power,
• 1:03:11
  there you go,
• 1:03:12
  or a part of one's identity.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see, all of those.
• 1:03:18
  I could check all those boxes for how I felt about my parents
• 1:03:23
  for so long,
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: for so long,
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: all of it.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Just check, check, check, check, check.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:03:29
  and I want to also return to that part of the story where you
• 1:03:36
  used that story,
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: as an example of how terrible your parents were.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:44
  And what you just read about the part of your identity,
• 1:03:47
  that was part of my identity.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: That story defined part of my identity.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I would... Yeah.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm probably going a very different direction with this.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: Than I set out to do when it came to the boundaries.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I think... Yeah.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: I would invite...
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: parents listening to consider that,
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:15
  how much of your identity is tied up in the current dynamic
• 1:04:23
  with your child.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's hard.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's so hard.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where that piece around why I'm no longer gender critical,
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: that was the idea in this,
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: that if we over-identify with that label,
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: we are doing the same thing.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we are contributing to the emotional estrangement.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to also remind listeners that have been listening for a while,
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe you need to read
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: recap this part of the story,
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: but your parents still,
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: in their belief system,
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: homosexuality is wrong.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: And yet you now, you and your partner have a relationship with them.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: You are both, we'll both visit, right.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, and are welcome in their home.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Not just a relationship, but like, we love them.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: We love each other.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they treat my son, who is not my biological son, as their grandchild.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but they don't stop.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: They maintain their integrity.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was just explaining this to a friend who visited this past weekend.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: And my wife has had multiple friends, essentially...
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: tell her she should not tolerate them.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like that she, that I'm like asking for too much.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: So this is counter-cultural.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is,
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: it is counter-cultural,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: but on both sides,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: on these both tribal political sides to prioritize the relationship to,
• 1:06:30
  you use the word and i think we've both matured yes and can
• 1:06:35
  hold right like it's
• 1:06:37
  that capacity to to be with somebody who has a fundamentally
• 1:06:43
  different belief
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: system than you do yeah yes and not be threatened by that
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: To transcend, transcend the belief systems.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you used the word stretch last time.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: And stretch big enough, big enough.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: To hold and be in relationship with others.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:07:24
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• 1:07:27
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• 1:07:29
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• 1:07:31
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• 1:07:34
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• 1:07:36
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• 1:07:37
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• 1:07:39
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• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.