Latest / Mythmakers / Dark Have Been My Dreams of Late - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 6

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Dark Have Been My Dreams of Late - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 6 · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creators
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  brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. Now this is one of our
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  sidecasts where we are reading our way through Lord of the Rings and we are already embarked quite
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  deep into the two towers and we have reached chapter 6, the King of the Golden Hall. As the name
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  suggests we are going to be writing into Rohan today. So what would I say is the overarching
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  organisation of this chapter? Well I would say that the themes in it, if you look carefully,
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  are about youth and age. That's the sort of theme that binds it. And it actually is a simpler
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  chapter in many ways because we have the approach as Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli approach,
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  the Golden Hall, Edda Rass. We have the confrontation and the change of heart,
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  a third and then we have a much shorter end piece which is about saddling up, getting ready to go
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  and finding a new leader for the people of Rohan as third and right off the battle. So
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  really it's that central chunk that's the main part of this chapter. But before we get there
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  I just want to really pause on the very very beginning of this chapter because one of the things
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  I'm doing here is it's almost like how does Tolkien work? What makes his style? And it struck me
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  that the very beginning of this chapter maybe provides a clue as does the very end. There is something
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  wonderfully poetic and strong and deep and resonant about his writing. So just let's take the first
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  sentence. They rode on through sunset and slow dusk and gathering night. A three-part sentence
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  which is the pacing of it is liberally slow. It's giving a sense of the sort of a
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  mimetic sense of the length of the journey. It's also a two-paragraph section which is full of
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  silence. There's no dialogue in it. It's just full of I guess stuffed full of atmosphere. You get
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  wonderful details. You get the detail of Gandalf standing at night. You get the
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  arrogant, he's not sleeping either, he's sort of stretched out on his back.
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  I'm glad that's asleeping here. That's rare. He normally is standing in thought. All was silent
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  and there was no sign or sound of living thing. The night was barred with long clouds
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  fleeting on a chill wind when they arose again. Under the cold moon they went on once more,
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  as swift as by the light of day. So it's very hard to sort of completely unpack this because once
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  you unpack it you're left with a lot of bits. But I would say that this is like those master touches,
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  deaf touches, like an artist who can just bring an eye to life by putting a white dot in the right
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  place. I feel as though that is somehow what you're seeing Tolkien doing with his writing. He just
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  has these little deaf touches and I think the other part of it is he is intensely there
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  as a writer. He's feeling it, experiencing it and that's why we feel immersed in it
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  because he is able to envisage the whole thing and paint it out for us right economically.
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  So we go on from that on the approach to Ederas and here he does one of his clever things where he
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  gives us the broad description of the sort of mountain range and then he uses Legolas to provide us
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  in speech the detail of what he wants us to notice. So it's like focusing in. He is like doing
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  the close-up through Legolas because of his superior vision and the craft point here is it's a
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  very good way of organising what we see in descriptions. If you're writing descriptions and you
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  don't organise them you're left with a confused reader and so this is a cinematic technique
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  is using here really which is you go from the big background and you focus in on your main point
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  and focus isn't it in the picture which is Ederas itself. And we need this to help fire up the
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  mind's eye because if we get over there is this and over there is that and up there is this it just
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  feels like we're being shocked with buckshot. This is like an arrow of information.
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  As they approach again these are these lovely passages which you don't get in any film version
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  so read the book everyone. We've got details details details and the one I want to pick out here
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  is the one about willows. So we they're going through a green land the land was green in the wet
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  meads and along the grassy borders of the stream grew many willow trees. Already in this southern
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  land they were blushing red at their fingertips feeling the approach of spring. What's going on
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  here? Blushing red at the fingertips is an accurate description of weeping willows as they get ready
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  to grow their leaves for spring so we've got a sense of where we are in the seasons. Somebody who
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  is a gardener and nature lover like talking knows what the changing signs are. He probably goes
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  that into his own garden and sees this or down by the char well river. But there's also did you
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  notice this? An echo of the anthropomorphism of the willow fronds being fingertips. What does
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  that remind us of? It reminds us of the ends. It reminds us of old man willow it. This world where
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  trees are charged with personality so it's still there as a faint echo. Wonderful stuff.
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  Right as we approach Edoras we get the introduction of this idea about time and perspective.
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  It is the barrows where the white flowers are growing the symbol mooner which is the first of these
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  Rohan language words that come in. An arrogant and legolas both have a different
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  reaction to the barrows. Aragorn is explaining how in the mind of people of Rohan these are ancient
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  ancient barrows in the landscape from generations after generations. Whereas for legolas that's
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  500 years which is just the blink of an eye and this is the beginning of this theme about how
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  Rohan can be both ancient but also very young and it picks up with the theme which in this chapter
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  which is basically a struggle a debate between age and youth as we will go on to see.
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  Aragorn is inspired to introduce the first of the poems in this chapter. It's the one that starts
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  where now the horse and the rider. This was used very effectively in the film. They
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  realize this is a great poem and I was interested to look into the history of this poem thanks to
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  collected poems of Tolkien which we now have. In there the editors say that this was composed
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  probably for the first time in between February and summer of 1942. So think where we are in
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  the terms of the world war things weren't going pretty you know things weren't going that well.
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  It was still a very dark time and this first iteration focused much more on
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  el the young the founding father so we say of the Rohan culture but it also has echoes in it and
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  Tolkien talks about this in his letters of the wanderer and the tradition which is an
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  Old English poem and the Latin tradition of Ubicent where is or where are those poems. So he's
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  writing within a tradition but he drafts away from that by the third draft which is what we've
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  got here and it's the one which he recorded in 1952 if you want to hear his own voice reading it.
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  He's gone from having a iteration within the text which was the Old English form of poetry
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  to having en rhymes so he's created his own version of you know the spirit of this poem it's not
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  a pastiche of the wanderer he's not translating the wanderer at all and he very much rejects that
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  suggestion in his letter about this. It's been inspired but he's gone and made his own thing
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  and the letter goes on to actually connect this particular poem to his greater theory of creativity
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  he says I'm not recreating the wanderer I am subcreating a poem I am making my own version in my
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  own world so it's a little microcosm of his thought process it's worth lingering over and having
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  a look at you do still get the sense of the driving rhythms of the Old English and there's a
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  lot of alliteration in it so it's still present but it's no longer the main poetic structure
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  because you've got the very strong en rhymes. This idea of language and this poem which
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  Aragorn is translating for us continues on because the first confrontation with the first set of
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  Guards is all about language customs. We see here how Rohan has become very introverted it's
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  got its own sort of version of let's just concentrate on Rohan things and forget the rest of the
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  world which you see going on around the world today unfortunately and one of the things they do
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  is that they won't speak to foreigners in the common tongue but they use their own language
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  it's a kind of trap they're setting for people to come and Aragorn dispenses with it quickly
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  because he has spent time there and he can speak the language fluently and this enters
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  into the theme about how do you see do you look at people and see who they really are or do you
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  look at people and see them crookedly and it's a sign that the rot hasn't set in that deeply
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  within Rohan in that these humble guards are able to work out that these are good people who are
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  coming to the door or at least people who are worthy of an interview with their king.
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  So they do get entry into Ederas and they climb up again it's well worth
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  of reading this to reset your brain from the very effective location they had in New Zealand
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  it was effective brilliant place I mean you can't find Ederas in in reality but there are some
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  elements which they didn't have through location which you're lovely to see here it's not quite
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  as bleak and windswept I don't think as that landscape there but it also has an important fountain
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  at the top of the hill it reminded me of a recent visit I made to Siena of course
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  having a water source if you're not on a river is absolutely vital and Siena has a central
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  fountain around which the rest of the city is organised and you get this is the this is what's
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  going on here you've got this fountain and just above it you've got the golden halls it's a very
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  very other key sites in Ederas because of course they need water one thing that I've always
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  thought was a bit odd is the guards are seated as you approach it seems quite a nice thing to allow
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  your guards to sit down but I'm used to people standing up on guard outside Bucky and Palace so it
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  was strikes me as a funny note but anyway then we get the shenanigans over weapons and of course
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  it reminds of in this world that weapons have lineage and so you've got the hint of the
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  legular saying you know these weapons have come from Galadriel and that's a theme which is going
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  to be picked up again a little bit later by a worm tongue when it's reported to him what's going
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  on outside and you've got arrogant slapping back shall we say when he's challenged about
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  his sword and he is one who enters into this language about age he says my sword is meld but
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  made by telchar first wrought it in the depths of time so compared to the barrows which he was
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  arguing the case for them of being of important long lineage to the Rohan he's actually at the door
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  saying yes but look this comes from even further back there are things that predate your culture
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  so it's a bit of a diss there but it's continuing that time theme
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  and it turns out this is like a sort of test or a puzzle for them to solve because they have to do
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  the various steps to get through into the hall and while the most obvious weapons are surrendered in a
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  way the visitors turn the courtesy of harmer against him and that they argue that the staff should
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  be left this sort of bartering at the gates of a place is a sort of well-known trope from
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  um stories really it's the you have to get past the door ward the gate and so it's a sort of
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  traditional exchange going on here but we do see that harmer isn't a dupe he is actually using
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  right judgment in fact he's far more important in this chapter I realised as I reread it than
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  I had given him credit for because he is actually doing this knowingly he bends a rule because he's
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  seeing straight so we are now progressing inside the hall which is beautifully described and I
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  get a sense that talking absolutely loved describing the hall such as you would find in bear wolf
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  and his favourite poems so do read that in my version it's on page 116 he's just having huge
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  fun imagining himself in these halls of kings from a kind of old English world and what we
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  get at the far end is a triptych of three figures all very important in this chapter you've got
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  the wizard dwarfish curled in on himself king you've got the young beautiful stoic beauty of
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  air when and you've got cunning heavy-litted cunning of worm tongue and that's sort of purposely
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  given us sort of moment here so that we can work out who how the power is divided in this court
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  it's interesting or significant you need to again ditch anything you've seen in the film because
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  third in here is much more he has much more agency than the under a spell version of Bernatille
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  he is discertious he's been brainwashed by worm tongue and he is malding worm tongues words but he's
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  giving his own kingly spin on it he is also a grief-stricken father which we learn from worm tongue
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  who rubs it in by saying that that theadred has died not news that necessarily the others would have
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  known before coming into the room and worm tongue is quick to hand out titles lath spell which is
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  another of these old words row hand words based on old english ill news so he's also if you
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  look at how he speaks he does punch back he is a very effective speaker he's not so obviously a
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  poor terrible counselor that you would immediately think wider said and for him he has his own dignity
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  in sense of argument and he also has a nasty turn of phrase the spin doctor for the row hand court
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  three ragged wanderers in gray and you yourself the most beggar like of the four so he's quite good at
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  dishing it out he also is the one to raise the term of galadriel being the sorceress of the golden
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  which is obviously a red flag particularly to gimmeley who's about to you know take him on
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  and this is the point where Gandalf steps up he chance a poem which I couldn't find out
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  anything it's not in the collected work so I assume it's just written for this this purpose here
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  hasn't got a longer lineage but he chance this poem which is a bit like a counter spell
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  and it's sort of summoning up the idea of lorian in this place and he then steps forward and
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  acclaims his authority and he speaks in a cold clear voice he stands up to class aside his cloak
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  and it completely shifts the balance it's as though he's been trying to work out or sort of feeling
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  his way and he thinks right enough of this i'm here let's sort this out and it's a great moment
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  of release because there is a slight worry that he's going to be thrown out on his ear but no he's
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  he's much more powerful now and there's a combination here of potentially magic potentially
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  whether arriving at the right moment where there's flashes of light and a storm outside
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  that comes from the east so it could be a storm sent by Sauron potentially but it also
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  falls at the time where Gandalf can manipulate it to project his power so it's not a wizard battle
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  that frees Theridon it is persuasion so that Theridon can sort of detox from
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  Grima's words and go outside and breathe the fresh air with Gandalf so it's actually in some
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  ways there's more magic here because of this moment with the storm but it's also less there
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  isn't a sense Sauron's hand behind this is having sent Grima to whisper in Theridon's ear it's
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  not a physical curse in that filmic way i'm here on the job site with Dale who's a framing
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  contractor hey good morning Dale traded up to Geico commercial auto insurance for all his
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  business vehicles we're here where he needs his most yep they sure we make it easy for him to save
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  on all his insurance needs only one place with coverage that fits his business and bomb line
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  or shouldn't have looked down it's all right we're with so far up here look at me take a deep breath
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  oh i'm good so good get a commercial auto insurance quote today at geico.com and see how much you
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  could save it feels good to Geico and Gandalf this is another thing that characterizes this
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  passage or this whole chapter is lots of very wise sayings there's often people exchange
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  like Proverbs really and Gandalf's one here he says the wise speak only of what they know
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  a witness were worm have you become therefore be silent and keep your foot tongue behind your teeth
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  and that this is like a tipping point after this the characterization of Grima worm tongue becomes more
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  and more serpent-like note here also there is a moment to set up the airwin arrogant unrequited
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  love story because we get a longer description of airwin she just in briefly mentioned
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  but the paragraph written by copy which is at the bottom of page 119 sets up the main things we
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  know about her we hear her name airwin sister daughter the woman turned and went slowly into the
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  house as she passed the doors she turned and looked back grave and thoughtful was her glance
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  as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes pity is incredibly important in Tolkien
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  we'll see another moment of pity and of course there's that famous pity it was that
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  stayed his hand that's decisive about golem but she's got a coolness to her as well so she has
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  compassion but she's also this hint of steel very fair was her face and her long hair was like a river
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  of gold so she is white and gold like the hall which has a golden roof she has golden hair
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  slender and tall she was in her white robe gird with silver but strong she seemed and stern
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  as steel a daughter of kings and then we get the kind of drumbeat of thus arrogant for the first
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  time in the full light of day be held airwin lady of Rohan and thought her fair fair and cold
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  like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood and she now was suddenly aware of
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  him tall air of kings wise with many winters grey cloaked hiding a power that yet she felt for a
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  moment still a stone she stood then turning swiftly she was gone so this is one of the themes of
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  use and age so she's like pale spring not yet come to womanhood and arrogant wise with many winters
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  it's obviously that coldness in her is what needs to melt and it takes a farmyer to melt it
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  not an arrogant so the next section is the discussion between Gandalf and Thedin about the times
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  it's full of wonderful poetry the language is is almost like it could be in a poem you could
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  imagine this as a narrative first drama this scene Thedin says things like dark have been my dreams
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  of late I think that's a line that made it into a film and if we're thinking of this being written
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  in 1942 then it's very applicable to the sort of perspective of the British at this point in
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  the war it's been a very dark dream with the the blitz and the defeat and the Dunkirk
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  evacuation of the troops the loss of mainland Europe but we also get here a sense of Thedin's wit
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  so when the king calls for Emma the king sends hammer who was the one who allowed the staff
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  into the audience chamber and he says the guilty shall bring the guilty to judgment
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  with a twinkle in his eye so we're getting to see the full grandfatherly humour that is Thedin
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  as well as his dignity we also have in this chapter other forms of this is one of those chapters
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  which is stop is stuff full of highfalutin language because Gandalf is saying things like
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  verily that way lies our hope where sits our greatest fear so he's full of this very dignified
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  language of courts and kings we don't really leave that behind until we have a brief
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  scene a little bit later on with Legolas and Gimli getting ready to leave and then Gimli starts
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  saying a bit like the he's in the place of the Hobbits he's the one who brings it down to
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  to the ground by saying we'd better go on with that kind of language but we're still in this
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  court and king language also this is the second use in this chapter of Legolas' superior site
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  because whilst Gandalf is talking about where their hope lies there's this sentence that goes it
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  seemed to Legolas as he strained his fasting eyes that he caught a glint of white far away
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  perchance the sun twinkled on a pinnacle of the Tower of Guard and further still endlessly
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  remote and yet a present threat there was a tiny tongue of flame what we're seeing there is
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  ministerous and mount doom so we can get the sense of the landscape in which the final acts of this
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  drama are going to be played out over the next book and a half so I mentioned that we have a
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  euphonage theme running through this chapter it comes to a head when Emma comes in because he is
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  the young man offering allegiance to the old man. Emma coming forward and offering his allegiance
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  to an act which is copied by all the other warriors during this chapter reasserts the
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  the ancient king at the top and the youth coming to support and to take over and this is turn
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  take over when time when the time comes because he's named as air but we also get
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  worm time trying to use that euphonage to unpick it that's what he's been doing he's been saying
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  you're too old for all of this and that is his argument he's saying you must you must you know
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  put your feet up they're trying to lure you to your death that's the kind of poison you can see
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  how he's been feeding this poison to theoden but it's too late gremma's poison is now leaving
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  theoden and what we get here is the moment when aged realizes it isn't so old and the decision
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  point is will you not take the sword and being reminded of the strength of his youth and the fact
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  that his though his best days are behind him he's still got it in him fairden turns into the
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  warrior king at that point when he takes the sword and we get another little poem here it's got
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  the hint of the eliteration arise now arise riders of third and can you see the the r sound arise
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  arise riders dire deeds awake dd dark is to eastward at the horse be bridled horn be sounded that's
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  got h sounds and combining the two parts of that literature first fourth in aoling gas so that's
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  the probably the most that little ditty there little war cry is probably the most
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  uh old english style poem actually in this section because of the eliteration
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  and in response we get one of the first little snatches of old english in the this refrain west
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  du therden how which is like a kind of great greeting or praise um phrase which emma says
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  never again shall it be said gandalf that you come only with grief so it's pushing back on all the
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  things that worm tongue has been saying things speed up now i mean there is a break for
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  like to eat but what is speeding up here is now things have been reversed we start putting things
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  right so gandalf lays out the plan and it's very quickly and definitely damp we got a deal with
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  saraman we've got to take the civilians to safety and then we've got to fight the next battle
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  that's really the story there we go arrogant sort of says that we're coming to and he
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  gives the three friends a nice sort of warlike name axe sword and bow they stand in with their
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  different weapon types and then we get the question well therden isn't going to sit at home
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  anymore even though that's what gandalf is expecting but we're left with the problem about well
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  who's going to reign in his stead if he goes off to war and there is no immediate answer given
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  is at this point where therden summons his counsellor i mentioned how gremas sort of status
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  descends and goes from man like to serpent like in this chapter and here he's pulled out into
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  the sunlight so when you see him straight he blinks in the sunlight like some kind of cabin dwelling
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  rock dwelling creature he seems less and less impressive so in the shadows he thrives
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  and then there's all these little touches about he may have stolen from people and so on
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  and he is trying to produce the same effect on therden by repeating his council that people are
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  trying to get do a meal by making him active but therden has now escaped that sort of council
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  if this is bewitchment it seems to me more wholesome than you're whispering so i prefer their
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  version of the truth than yours and it's very clear here that it's by their choices that you know
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  a person not by their words and he's given the chance to go to battle with his lord but
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  he actually is most interested in what happens to the treasure gandalf again cuts through the
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  the fast shall we say by making everybody see what's really going on here he says down snake
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  and he exposes the fact that he gremma has not been an ordinary man of Rohan he's been in the pay
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  of sarah man this first time this is exposed to daylight and he's been after airwin which
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  air may have known but not been able to do anything about
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  worm tongue is roundly defeated in this debate and it's notable here that gandalf still
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  says still counts or's pity it is the most it is that quality which gandalf keeps injecting into
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  this world he says once it was a man though it's like a snake now once it was a man similar thing
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  he says about grolem once it was a hobbit hobbit like creature so i don't think people have
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  mentioned this as much but that decision to spare gremma here actually has two important
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  benefits down the line one is the palantir is thrown out of the window so mixed blessing but it
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  turns out to be for the best and the other is it means that the hobbits don't have to kill sarah man
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  because gremma does it for the hobbits at the very very end of the story so pity does have
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  these unexpected benefits for or working out in this world this i was interested to notice this
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  time that gandalf is interested on interesting here in the descent of sarah man he says
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  yeah he was your friend once but his heart grew colder so it's interesting here to see sarah
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  time moving colder and colder and colder there is a hamlet echo here as well if you're noticing
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  because he talks about how worm tongue whispering in your ear poisoning your thoughts hamlets
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  farther died because poison was dropped in his ear and there is a sort of hamlet feel here with
• 34:25
  air moving the young king in waiting and thirden being the king who was practically on his deathbed
• 34:32
  at this point but it doesn't take the hamlet direction to tragedy it does the Tolkien Eucatastrophe
• 34:40
  where there's a happy turn and thirden actually rejects the poison and rising to battle and here we
• 34:47
  get as a result when they're talking about looking looking correctly at the young people
• 34:55
  who may have been quite rationed how they express their feelings i think that's the sort of feel
• 34:59
  with emma hadn't been that diplomatic thirden says faithful heart may have a throw a word
• 35:07
  tongue that has a feeling of an old saying and gandalf of count was count as that with
• 35:14
  to crooked eyes truth may wear a rye face so after this exchange and the appointment of
• 35:22
  emma as his air we get some gift giving and some arming for war so it's notable here that
• 35:32
  shadow facts is given because gandalf said it was only lent before though everybody knows it's
• 35:37
  already you know it's gone far out of thirden's control and then we get the arming for war where
• 35:46
  they get those who haven't come with armor get given some appropriate gear and then we get a
• 35:52
  little bit of the change of tone here because we get gimli joking that sooner would i bear a horse
• 35:57
  and be born by one because he's shield has a horse on it so is this sort of a lightning of the tone
• 36:04
  here as as the preparations happen for war we get aragorn having another moment with air wind
• 36:11
  there's three moments in this chapter because there isn't actually much time for air when an
• 36:16
  aragon so each one has to be used to the maximum you get the sense that aragorn knows things are
• 36:22
  going awry she offers him the cup actually this was done extremely well in the film i think it's in
• 36:28
  the extended edition but the look that air when gives aragorn at this moment is perfect for this
• 36:34
  and the answer here when when he takes the cup his face was now troubled and he did not smile he
• 36:40
  knows there is trouble brewing there because the the young woman who's never met a king before
• 36:46
  of somebody of agron stature of course she's going to fall in love can't blame her
• 36:51
  right so now i've been but i said that harmer is incredibly powerful in this chapter not only did he
• 36:57
  decide about the staff but he also gets to a point whose rules in and they're instead because he
• 37:04
  is the one who says that they only trust in the house of ill and that that means air wind should
• 37:11
  take her place leading the civilians to safety so good old harmer unfortunately he doesn't make it
• 37:20
  through the the in total war but he's pulling his weight here and one of those enjoyable minor
• 37:28
  characters in Tolkien's world and air wind now appears male clad so we're getting little hints
• 37:36
  of where her story is going to go she is definitely the warrior maiden not a bureaucrat organizing
• 37:41
  an evacuation and now we get ready to go there's some little touches here like how
• 37:49
  Tolkien describes very deathly what the gathered hordes of the cavalry it looked like he says
• 37:57
  their spears were like a springing wood the idea of a new wood of saplings or springing up
• 38:04
  too many to count you also get a little refrain here don't Tolkien is very good at remembering all
• 38:11
  his plot plot little moments and threads because we get Gimli and Emma talking about the words
• 38:19
  they had about Galatriel and that's a theme that goes all the way on to the end of the book
• 38:25
  and then we get the last moment as they ride out I love these moments of departure with Rohan
• 38:32
  just the sort of energy that they have and the energy here is given by Gandalf throwing a side
• 38:40
  his hat and his cloak and leaping upon Shadowfax and Argon gives the cry behold the white rider
• 38:49
  and that sort of war cry is how they leave they all gallop away but he's such a great writer
• 38:57
  because he gives it a little melancholy touch at the end he plants the seed that's going to
• 39:05
  sprout into Airwind's story because the the last line is given to her far over the plane
• 39:12
  Airwind saw the glitter of their spears as she stood still alone before the doors of the silent house
• 39:24
  that is poetry wonderful poetry I think this might be one of my favorite chapters from the way
• 39:30
  it's written not not in terms of the action but there has so much to enjoy and relish in this
• 39:38
  chapter do go back and read it read it aloud save the words chant the poetry it's all there well done
• 39:45
  talking that's a brilliant chapter thanks for listening to MythMakers podcast brought to you by
• 39:58
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• 40:05
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