Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Teen Girl Body Dumped off I-65, Haunts Sheriff

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Teen Girl Body Dumped off I-65, Haunts Sheriff · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Imagine this a teen girl,
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Speaker 1: a teen girl. I have a teen girl. This teen
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Speaker 1: girl dumped by the side of the interstate, her body discovered,
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Speaker 1: and then years pass the case never solved. I'm Nancy Grace.
0:38
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
0:41
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven. First
0:45
Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at WRTV.
0:49
Speaker 1: Investigators in Boone County are not giving up on a
0:51
Speaker 1: twenty two year old unsolved mystery. They hope this new
0:54
Speaker 1: sketch will help identify a woman found dead in Lebanon
0:57
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two. Or found the woman's body at
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Speaker 1: the bottom of a hill near I sixty five and
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Speaker 1: State Road forty seven. Police believe she was between seventeen
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Speaker 1: and twenty two years old when she died. She was
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Speaker 1: around five foot six with short, reddish brown hair. The
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Speaker 1: woman had a tattoo that said mom, one that said love,
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Speaker 1: and a tattoo with two hearts on her right breast.
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Speaker 1: If you have any information about the case, call the
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Speaker 1: Boone County Sheriff at eight sixty five eight two fourteen twelve.
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Speaker 1: Imagine a teen girl thrown by the side of the
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Speaker 1: Interstate like she's trash. I am flown up and down
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Speaker 1: the interstate a million times and seen somebody in front
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Speaker 1: of me typically throw out trash, and it always irritates
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Speaker 1: me because I hate little bugs. These people dump out
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Speaker 1: a teen girl and leave her on the side of
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Speaker 1: Ice sixty five and then to add insult to injury,
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Speaker 1: to rub salt in the wound, no one can identify
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Speaker 1: the girl. Years pass Somewhere out there, someone is missing,
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Speaker 1: a daughter, a sister, a granddaughter. Again, I may see Grayson.
2:12
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you
2:14
Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation in series
2:16
Speaker 1: six eleven. Also joining us an incredible panel to break
2:21
Speaker 1: down what we know right now. First of all, DNA
2:24
Speaker 1: expert the CEO of author am Inc. David Middleman, Jim Elliott,
2:31
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us out of Warner Robins, Georgia
2:35
Speaker 1: with Butler snow LLLP, doctor Jory Crasen, renowned psychologists joining US.
2:42
Speaker 1: Faculty Saint Leo University and author of Operation s O S.
2:47
Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher, the medical Examiner for the State of
2:51
Speaker 1: Florida at pathcaremed dot com. Also Professor University in Florida
2:57
Speaker 1: Medical School, forensic Medicine and the found and host of
3:01
Speaker 1: the International Forensic Madisone Death Investigation Conference. Now that's a
3:07
Speaker 1: good time. Joining me, the founder and director the Coal
3:11
Speaker 1: Case Research Institute. You can find her at Coalcase dot org.
3:15
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum weighing in, But first I want to go
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Speaker 1: to investigative reporter with wi SHTV. You know him well,
3:23
Speaker 1: Richard Essex. Richard, tell me about the discovery of this
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Speaker 1: girl's body. Well, this is my own county, and this
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Speaker 1: happened when I was in my late twenties. I remember
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Speaker 1: this very very clearly. We didn't have this type of
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Speaker 1: crime in our county. It was very very rare. So
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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two farmer is out inspecting his fields and
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Speaker 1: he comes across a human leg sticking out of a creek. Okay, wait, wait,
3:49
Speaker 1: wait wait, Richard Essex, Okay, you got me drinking from
3:53
Speaker 1: the fire hydrant. You got to slow it down. I
3:55
Speaker 1: beg you've told this story and thought about this story.
3:58
Speaker 1: I mean McCollum, when we weren't trying cases together, I
4:03
Speaker 1: was thinking about the case and talking about the case
4:06
Speaker 1: ad nauseam to anybody that when I would come in
4:09
Speaker 1: contact with do you remember that. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. I
4:13
Speaker 1: can remember you spreading the case file out and look
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Speaker 1: at it every single page, in every single detail, and
4:21
Speaker 1: we'd talk about it over and over and over until
4:24
Speaker 1: you had it as clear as anybody could understand that case,
4:27
Speaker 1: over and over and over. So Richard Essex joining me
4:31
Speaker 1: on Investigative Reporter WISHTV. Oh, you can find him on
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Speaker 1: Twitter at Richard Essex the Third Richard, So slow down,
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Speaker 1: because I know not only have you reported on this,
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Speaker 1: you've studied it and probably thought about it a million times.
4:46
Speaker 1: Was the farmer on his tractor or not? And I've
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Speaker 1: got a reason for asking. I think he was on
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Speaker 1: foot because you know you can go on foot in
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Speaker 1: places where you can't reach with a tractor. So he's
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Speaker 1: on foot and he's seen al por trading from was
5:01
Speaker 1: it the earth or did you say a creek? From
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Speaker 1: the creek? Okay, go ahead. And at that time, things
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Speaker 1: like this were very, very unusual in Boone County where
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Speaker 1: north of Indianapolis, and on occasion you would have a
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Speaker 1: body would be would be dumped in some of the
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Speaker 1: rural areas, but along Interstate sixty five and there's somewhat
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Speaker 1: public area, very unusual. Now you're saying, did you say
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Speaker 1: Interstate fifty five or sixty five? Okay, good, Okay, I
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Speaker 1: got that part right. Where does sixty five run, Richard Essex.
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Speaker 1: It runs right through the center of the state. I mean,
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Speaker 1: we are the crossroads of America, as you probably well know,
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Speaker 1: and this runs right through my home county from the
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Speaker 1: south east corner to the northwest corner. Okay, let me
5:54
Speaker 1: understand something. We're talking about Boone County, Indiana. That is
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Speaker 1: where Richard is joining us. From where Richard is joining us.
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Speaker 1: You know, I've made this analogy, this point to a
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Speaker 1: jury a million times, and I'll be talking about, for instance,
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Speaker 1: drug markers and drug trafficking. I seventy five goes from Florida,
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Speaker 1: where the dope comes in at the Fort, all the
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Speaker 1: way up to New York City, and Atlanta is the
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Speaker 1: first big, big stop along seventy five, hence the high
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Speaker 1: crime rate in Atlanta. So, Richard, you're saying sixty five,
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Speaker 1: I sixty five goes all the way across Indiana. It's
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Speaker 1: a state route. Oh yeah, it's it's a high. Sixty
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Speaker 1: five runs almost all the way down well, I think
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Speaker 1: almost into Tennessee and Okay, gotcha. And my point for
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Speaker 1: asking that and joining me right now is Sheriff Mike Nielsen,
6:49
Speaker 1: Booe County Sheriff joining us from Indiana. Sheriff, thank you
6:53
Speaker 1: so much for being with us. And we're just talking
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Speaker 1: about I sixty five. So bottom line, when a boy
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Speaker 1: is discovered by a local farmer, that could have been
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Speaker 1: near I sixty five, That could have been anybody from
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Speaker 1: Tennessee all the way up to the tip of Indiana. Yes, ma'am.
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Speaker 1: This is one of those interstates that travel. It's a
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Speaker 1: main interstate between Chicago and Indianapolis. So we see a
7:19
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of human trafficking, we see a
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Speaker 1: lot of drug running. We do everything that we can
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Speaker 1: to try to curb that, and this was one of
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Speaker 1: those cases back in that time period. Jim Elliott joining me,
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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of one Robin is Georgia. Jim.
7:36
Speaker 1: That makes solving the case that much more difficult because
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Speaker 1: unless someone someone can visually id this girl, this team
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Speaker 1: girl thrown off I sixty five. Don't know how much
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Speaker 1: she had been decomposed, but let's just pretend she wasn't decomposed.
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Speaker 1: If nobody can id her, then you're left with a
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Speaker 1: jet a doteen girl. That could have been done by
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Speaker 1: anybody up and down the interstate from Tennessee to the
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Speaker 1: tip of Indiana. Well, of course, I mean just a
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Speaker 1: you know, a high traveled area, and I mean that's
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Speaker 1: the perfect place for someone to dump a body whatever
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Speaker 1: and then take off. And I mean you got to
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Speaker 1: think about it, too, Jim Elliott. The idea of someone
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Speaker 1: I mean, when I drive by a car stopped on
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Speaker 1: the side of the interstate in your neck of the
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Speaker 1: woods would be seventy five or maybe even sixteen. I
8:27
Speaker 1: don't think anything about it. I think they've just pulled
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Speaker 1: over because they're tired, or they're eating, or they've got
8:34
Speaker 1: a tire problem. I don't think, hey, they're out in
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Speaker 1: the woods dumping a body. So there could have been
8:41
Speaker 1: a million witnesses or no witnesses. Jim Elliott. Well, you know,
8:44
Speaker 1: and it was right at I believe an entrance exit ramp,
8:47
Speaker 1: and so again, someone could have easily pulled off, don't
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Speaker 1: whatever they chose to do. And then, as the sheriff
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Speaker 1: shared with us, taken off north to say, you know what,
8:54
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. That's why you win all
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Speaker 1: those cases Jim Elliott because he's right rol entry exit.
9:02
Speaker 1: That makes it a whole other can of worms. That's
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Speaker 1: somebody that intentionally pulled off the interstate at that spot,
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Speaker 1: end umped no body, no question about it. And in
9:11
Speaker 1: that area. You're talking about a situation that was probably
9:15
Speaker 1: very very fast. But when he came into contact with
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Speaker 1: her in Ohio to Indiana, you're talking about several hours
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Speaker 1: in a vehicle together, time stories with Nancy Grace. Just
9:43
Speaker 1: think about it. Somebody's little sister, somebody's daughter thrown on
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Speaker 1: the side of the road like trash to doctor Jorry
9:51
Speaker 1: Cross and joining us renowned psychologist faculty Saint Leo University
9:56
Speaker 1: and author doctor Jory that's just a whole nother mindset
10:00
Speaker 1: to first kill somebody, because if she died of natural
10:03
Speaker 1: or accidental, then RuSHA to nine one one, Right, That's
10:05
Speaker 1: what I always say about Totmom and killing. If she
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Speaker 1: really died of the pool in the backyard, the father,
10:11
Speaker 1: George Anthony, former cop, would rush her to the hospital,
10:15
Speaker 1: right or call nine one one. You wouldn't go, oh wow,
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Speaker 1: I'll just put her in a trash bag and throw
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Speaker 1: in the woods. No, that's why this team girl's body
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Speaker 1: is disposed of because she died of a nefarious reason.
10:27
Speaker 1: She was murdered. But think about it, doctor Jory Crowson.
10:30
Speaker 1: Not only is it the mindset of killing somebody but
10:34
Speaker 1: then throwing him out like trash, just push him out
10:37
Speaker 1: of the car and keep going. Well, the other part
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Speaker 1: of that mindset is looking for the perfect place in
10:44
Speaker 1: their mind to dispose of the body. That's smart, okay.
10:49
Speaker 1: And so you look at and I saw the pictures.
10:52
Speaker 1: You can see the off ramp in you know, it's
10:55
Speaker 1: not a very well traveled spot being in the country.
10:58
Speaker 1: And also plus if it were at night, secluded by
11:02
Speaker 1: you know, the darkness. But still, you know, the perpetrators
11:05
Speaker 1: got to get that body out quickly and be gone.
11:09
Speaker 1: And that's still, you know, a part of his operational pattern,
11:13
Speaker 1: his behavior or not. If it's two o'clock in the morning,
11:16
Speaker 1: they may not feel that they're in so much of
11:18
Speaker 1: a hurry. I will never forget the story. It's a case.
11:22
Speaker 1: It's not a story. David Eisenhower is a defendant. The
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Speaker 1: little girl in the cold level had just been thrown
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Speaker 1: out of the car, and they had wiped her body
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Speaker 1: down with like alcohol wipes and then just thrown her
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Speaker 1: out and I always think of this little I believe
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Speaker 1: she was thirteen years old when she was murdered by
11:43
Speaker 1: this college guy that had started a sex affair with
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Speaker 1: this little girl, and I think of her body lying
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Speaker 1: out on the side of the road, and no one
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Speaker 1: here better to discuss it than Richard Essex with Wish
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Speaker 1: of SHTV and special guests. Sheriff Mike Nielsen, the Boon
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Speaker 1: County Sheriff. Sheriff. What was it like at the time
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Speaker 1: when this little girl's body was found? How did you
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Speaker 1: first learn about it? Well, we had pagers back then,
12:12
Speaker 1: and I was paged out for road countriage. I had
12:15
Speaker 1: been a police officer at that time for about seven years,
12:18
Speaker 1: and it was it was interesting to show up at
12:23
Speaker 1: the scene and see the devastation. It was really one
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Speaker 1: of the first major violent crimes that I had ever
12:30
Speaker 1: encountered because it's such a rural area, so it was
12:34
Speaker 1: it was quite quite dramatic, not only for the fireman
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Speaker 1: that founder of the farmer that found her, but also
12:41
Speaker 1: just moving on and trying to put yourself in the
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Speaker 1: shoes of her parents, her brothers and sisters, and just
12:49
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who this person was was she
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Speaker 1: clothed or unclothed, partially clothed, had a top on and
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Speaker 1: underwear and some socks, which means she was probably right.
13:00
Speaker 1: Don't know that. We the autopsy did not reveal that,
13:04
Speaker 1: but we feel that that probably was the case, Sheriff.
13:08
Speaker 1: If it walks like a duck and it quacks like
13:11
Speaker 1: a duck and it looks like a duck, I typically
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Speaker 1: would suggest to a jury it is a duck. So
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Speaker 1: Richard Essex, reporter, Wish TV. How long has she been
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Speaker 1: out there? She'd been out there for a couple of days,
13:24
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. So the temp at that time
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Speaker 1: she's found May three, I'm sure it was extremely warm,
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Speaker 1: Sheriff Nielsen with me when you saw the body. Was
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Speaker 1: she decomposed? She was partially decomposed at that time, and
13:44
Speaker 1: the autopsy was hard. It's hard to be at, but yeah,
13:48
Speaker 1: she was partially decomposed at that time. Nancy. Can you
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Speaker 1: still picture this in your mind, Sheriff, Oh, like it
13:54
Speaker 1: was yesterday. Like it was yesterday. And that's the that's
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Speaker 1: the whole thing that we see things in law enforcement
14:01
Speaker 1: that are traumatic events, and you know, it has a
14:04
Speaker 1: long lasting effect on us. I was always I've always
14:07
Speaker 1: wondered this, and I've talked to you, Cheryl McCallum about
14:10
Speaker 1: it quite a bit. I still have in my head
14:13
Speaker 1: murder cases, rate cases, child lenstation cases like they were yesterday,
14:18
Speaker 1: and the victims and the witnesses all seen just as
14:23
Speaker 1: real to me right now as they were at the
14:26
Speaker 1: time when I was meeting with them talking to their families.
14:31
Speaker 1: I'm autopsy photos in my mind, crime scenes in my mind.
14:36
Speaker 1: It never goes away. When you say when you got there,
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Speaker 1: Sheriff Mike Nielsen, that you could tell she was partially decomposed.
14:43
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? What did you observe? Well?
14:45
Speaker 1: When she was dumped like crash, one of the things
14:48
Speaker 1: that happened was her face was face down in a
14:51
Speaker 1: puddle of water, and with the heat over those few
14:56
Speaker 1: days and that water, her face was fairly decomposed, and
15:01
Speaker 1: there was there was some other exposure to the elements
15:04
Speaker 1: that made it obvious to us that she had been
15:09
Speaker 1: there for a few days. Doctor Tim Gallagher or medical Elexander,
15:12
Speaker 1: State of Florida at pathcaremad dot com. I think what
15:15
Speaker 1: he's trying to say in a nice way is bug activity,
15:19
Speaker 1: and that itself is a euphemism. That's when bugs and
15:24
Speaker 1: animals start eating you, eating your flesh. And it's not
15:31
Speaker 1: anything I ever want to talk about with my children,
15:34
Speaker 1: or let's just let's just say we're not talking about
15:37
Speaker 1: it over the supper table. But this is a murder
15:42
Speaker 1: and these are the facts. Whether we like him or not,
15:47
Speaker 1: this is the truth. So, doctor Gallagher. The fact that
15:51
Speaker 1: there may be as I like to say, bug insect
15:54
Speaker 1: activity that's actually very probitive. For instance, certain types of
16:01
Speaker 1: fly blow flies take X number of hours to incubate,
16:05
Speaker 1: So if you find a body that type of insect
16:10
Speaker 1: festering there, you can tell how long the bugs have
16:15
Speaker 1: been there in age back to the time of their murder,
16:20
Speaker 1: or it helps you anyway somewhat of a gauge. So,
16:23
Speaker 1: now that we've learned from the sheriff, Sheriff Mike Nielsen
16:27
Speaker 1: that her face was down in the water, how difficult
16:30
Speaker 1: is that going to be to get a cod cause
16:33
Speaker 1: of death or make an identification. And why the hey
16:36
Speaker 1: didn't they do a rape kit? Well, it's difficult to
16:38
Speaker 1: say why they didn't do one back in the day
16:41
Speaker 1: when they got her. They may have actually done one,
16:43
Speaker 1: but it may not have been processed or her DNA
16:45
Speaker 1: could be on some shelf somewhere, but you're at Nancy.
16:48
Speaker 1: Being outdoor and being in an area that has moisture water,
16:52
Speaker 1: you are very prone to insect activity. Insects scavenging insects.
16:57
Speaker 1: Typically blowflies usually find you within an hour or two
17:02
Speaker 1: after you die and start laying their eggs on these
17:05
Speaker 1: soft and moist parts of your body, and they take
17:08
Speaker 1: a couple of hours to hatch, and after the eggs hatch,
17:11
Speaker 1: the larva do go through growth phases and growth spurts
17:16
Speaker 1: that a forensic entomologist or bug expert can narrow down
17:21
Speaker 1: how many hours these maggots are in age and then
17:26
Speaker 1: track down when the time of the murder was. So
17:30
Speaker 1: that would be a forensic entomologist, and they do very
17:33
Speaker 1: good work there at the University of Florida at Doctor
17:37
Speaker 1: Birds Lab, they really do. Sheriff Neilson, can I ask
17:41
Speaker 1: you something? How long have you been the elected sheriff.
17:44
Speaker 1: I've been the elected sheriff for eight years, But at
17:46
Speaker 1: this time you were a police officer. I was. I
17:48
Speaker 1: was a sheriff's deputy back then. I started off my
17:51
Speaker 1: career at a little town of Dezionsville here in nineteen
17:55
Speaker 1: eighty three and went to the sheriff's department in nineteen
17:57
Speaker 1: eighty nine. So I was around with the sheriff's office
18:01
Speaker 1: for a couple of years before before this body was found.
18:05
Speaker 1: So you were a sheriff, not a police officer. I
18:07
Speaker 1: was a deputy sheriff. I am the current selected sheriff
18:09
Speaker 1: now right, yes, yes, thank you. When you saw the
18:12
Speaker 1: girl and you saw her face, did you believe that
18:16
Speaker 1: she could be identified visually? No, ma'am. And that's one
18:20
Speaker 1: of those things that again, it's like it happened yesterday.
18:23
Speaker 1: I can I can still see that, I can still
18:25
Speaker 1: see the autosities, and people that are in public safety
18:29
Speaker 1: can relate to that facts. You never forget those types
18:32
Speaker 1: of scenes. But we knew that it was going to
18:35
Speaker 1: be a challenge at that time, early stages of DNA,
18:39
Speaker 1: those types of things. We knew it was going to
18:40
Speaker 1: be a challenge to try to identify her. We just
18:43
Speaker 1: didn't know that it was, you know, thirty years later,
18:47
Speaker 1: we'd still be trying to solve you know, to David
18:50
Speaker 1: Middleman joining me, a DNA expert and CEO of author
18:53
Speaker 1: Am Inc. And you can find them at authoram ot
18:56
Speaker 1: h r a m dot com. David Cheron would call,
19:00
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're here for this if you
19:02
Speaker 1: were in the courtroom with me at that time. But
19:04
Speaker 1: I remember when I had my first DNA trial. I
19:06
Speaker 1: was just thrilled about DNA deoxyribanic lake acid sharing it
19:10
Speaker 1: with a jury, and I told the crime lab scientists,
19:13
Speaker 1: I'm like, bring all those I guess slides and pictures
19:19
Speaker 1: and I'm a shove to the jury. And they went,
19:21
Speaker 1: are you sure, And I'm like, yes, I'm sure. I'm
19:23
Speaker 1: not hiding anything from a jury. The last time I
19:26
Speaker 1: tried to obscure something from a jury, and the only
19:28
Speaker 1: time I might add, I didn't want the jury to
19:30
Speaker 1: know one of my victims of robbery. It was a
19:33
Speaker 1: stripper out at two am, just as a cheerleader, and
19:37
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I just won't mention it. Well the
19:40
Speaker 1: moment she walked in, everybody knew she was a stripper.
19:43
Speaker 1: So I basically had to spit that out at the
19:45
Speaker 1: get go. I was afraid they would judge her and
19:47
Speaker 1: not like her. As it turned out, they liked her
19:50
Speaker 1: just fine. I was the only one with the problem.
19:53
Speaker 1: David Middleman, so I got in a DNA scientist to
19:56
Speaker 1: bring all those slides, and it just looked like bad negatives.
20:01
Speaker 1: It was awful. It really. I don't know how you
20:05
Speaker 1: guys do it, but if the jury saw, it just
20:08
Speaker 1: looks like a lot of strings of dots. And I
20:11
Speaker 1: looked at that, I thought, what was I thinking? Believe me,
20:13
Speaker 1: I got those down off the stand as quickly as
20:16
Speaker 1: I could. David Middleman, So this is all done under
20:20
Speaker 1: a microscope and through testing. Correct. Yes, it's all all tiny,
20:27
Speaker 1: tiny pieces of bits of evidence. It's all molecular and
20:30
Speaker 1: you use a lot of high powered equipment like microscopes
20:33
Speaker 1: to do the work. Did you say molecular, Yes, like
20:37
Speaker 1: tiny little molecular candid seat. Yes, that that was the picture.
20:41
Speaker 1: That was the picture I tried to show the jury,
20:42
Speaker 1: and of course I had it blown up at my
20:45
Speaker 1: own expense, because you know, the county can't afford that.
20:47
Speaker 1: And I took one look at it and I need
20:50
Speaker 1: my ninety seven dollars had been wasted. Sheriff. Have you
20:55
Speaker 1: ever called families to the Morgue Sheriff? Oh, absolutely all
20:59
Speaker 1: the time. This was the hurt wrenching piece of this
21:02
Speaker 1: because we had no idea who this We assume she
21:06
Speaker 1: was a young woman at the time, between seventeen and
21:10
Speaker 1: twenty four. As we looked at that, we had nobody
21:16
Speaker 1: to tell and that was pretty devastating for the entire team.
21:19
Speaker 1: Is it real, doctor Tim Gallagher? We always see it
21:21
Speaker 1: in movies and on TV where the families brought in
21:24
Speaker 1: to identify the dead person. Does that still happen or
21:27
Speaker 1: do we usually use DNA or dental X race. No,
21:32
Speaker 1: we don't allow them to come into the morg any longer.
21:34
Speaker 1: We've had a couple of incidences where their emotions overcame
21:38
Speaker 1: them and emergency services had to be called. But typically
21:42
Speaker 1: what we'll do is we'll take a facial picture of them,
21:46
Speaker 1: a very higher resolution digital picture of their face or
21:50
Speaker 1: any unique part of their bodies such as a tattoo,
21:53
Speaker 1: and then present that to the family in a controlled
21:55
Speaker 1: environment in the main conference room of the facility. Praise
22:01
Speaker 1: the Lord in Heaven for that. I don't think I
22:03
Speaker 1: could have taken that when my fiancee was murdered, having
22:05
Speaker 1: to go identify his body. So here what we've got
22:08
Speaker 1: on our hands. A teen girl thrown off I sixty
22:11
Speaker 1: five down an embankment like she's trash found by a
22:15
Speaker 1: farmer out searching his land, and of course that's who
22:19
Speaker 1: usually becomes the first suspect, the one who finds the body.
22:24
Speaker 1: But of course that led to nothing, so we're left
22:29
Speaker 1: with an unidentified teen girl. So what do we do next?
22:32
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut five. This is Jesse
22:35
Speaker 1: Wells at Fox fifty nine. One year after her death,
22:38
Speaker 1: detectives made a clay mold of the woman's face. In
22:41
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, facial reconstruction images were released, and last year
22:46
Speaker 1: a forensic artist released the newest sketch of the victim.
22:49
Speaker 1: So to you, Sheriff Nielsen. One year after discovery of
22:54
Speaker 1: the body, detectives make a clay mold of the woman's face.
22:59
Speaker 1: Then in a couple of years later they do a
23:02
Speaker 1: facial reconstruction image using a forensic artist. Were you there
23:09
Speaker 1: when that happened? Yes, Actually, we had to exhume the
23:12
Speaker 1: body in order to get pieces of the body at
23:17
Speaker 1: that time, specifically the skull to send to the north
23:22
Speaker 1: to Michigan to be able to get that sculpture done
23:25
Speaker 1: at the time, and that's set in our lobby for
23:29
Speaker 1: years and years and years until it started to be great.
23:33
Speaker 1: You mean the clay mold of her face, Yes, started
23:37
Speaker 1: to be great. Oh my stars, you know, Cheryl McCollum.
23:40
Speaker 1: That is a lot of hard work, getting a clay
23:43
Speaker 1: mold made of her face, having her body exhumed, the
23:47
Speaker 1: n a facial reconstruction image, then a forensic artist releasing
23:50
Speaker 1: newest sketch of the victim. That's a lot of work
23:54
Speaker 1: to get the idea on this girl. It's a turn
23:56
Speaker 1: of work, and it's, you know, very delicate work. They say,
24:00
Speaker 1: you know, they didn't know where she had come from.
24:03
Speaker 1: They knew when a's range seventeen to twenty four, but
24:06
Speaker 1: they didn't know if she was from Kansas or Michigan
24:09
Speaker 1: or Florida. They had no idea how she had gotten
24:12
Speaker 1: to Indiana. It could have been a truck stop or
24:14
Speaker 1: a kidnapping, or she had been a runaway that came
24:18
Speaker 1: across her killer. They didn't know who she was. Doctor
24:22
Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher. When you exume a body that has of
24:26
Speaker 1: course been embalmed, the facial characteristics should not be changed, correct,
24:31
Speaker 1: But the soft tissue of the face is going to
24:34
Speaker 1: be highly degraded. But that's not what the artists use.
24:38
Speaker 1: They used the bone structure to develop their impression of
24:42
Speaker 1: what the soft tissue must look like, and then compiling
24:44
Speaker 1: all that together will give you a representation of what
24:48
Speaker 1: their face looks like. And what do you make them
24:51
Speaker 1: mold out of. I'm sure it's not just regular clay,
24:54
Speaker 1: or isn't Well it actually is. Yeah, it's actually modeling
24:58
Speaker 1: clay that's got a little more a little more um
25:03
Speaker 1: a texture to it than you would for most things.
25:06
Speaker 1: But it does, in fact, it does degrade overtime. And
25:10
Speaker 1: that's why we like to take these digital high resolution
25:14
Speaker 1: photographs of the modeling clay representation. Um so it doesn't
25:20
Speaker 1: so when it does, the great and we'll tell other
25:22
Speaker 1: things to pull back on it, like, for instance, the
25:25
Speaker 1: figures at Madam two says, oh, that's wax. Actually yeah,
25:28
Speaker 1: well why don't they use wax if that's better? Um? Well,
25:32
Speaker 1: you know, these people who do the reconstruction are artists,
25:35
Speaker 1: I mean, and so they work in their medium and
25:38
Speaker 1: uh and so traditionally they've been trained in the clay medium.
25:43
Speaker 1: So I can't speak to why they don't use wax, right,
25:45
Speaker 1: Roger Gallagher, Trust me, I'm not going to interfere with
25:48
Speaker 1: the artistic temperament. Okay, I'm just a j D. I
25:52
Speaker 1: know nothing about nothing from wax to clay what just
25:56
Speaker 1: I'll let them do their thing, but you know, I
25:59
Speaker 1: just want to do Jerry Cross and her family somewhere
26:03
Speaker 1: has no idea that this body is being exhumed and
26:07
Speaker 1: they're putting clay over her face to try to figure
26:10
Speaker 1: out who she is. And one thing I thought about
26:12
Speaker 1: is the unknown that the family is going through. And
26:17
Speaker 1: you know they're grieving, but they're still wondering. There's so
26:20
Speaker 1: much ambiguity, there's so much unknown there, and how they're
26:24
Speaker 1: dealing with it and processing it horribly. I'm sure eventually
26:29
Speaker 1: they're going to just probably just shut down and try
26:31
Speaker 1: to move forward. That's a sad day when you have
26:34
Speaker 1: to shut down and not feel it anymore. Sheriff Neilson,
26:37
Speaker 1: how much did it bother you when you so you
26:42
Speaker 1: got this clay moll made of her face and you
26:45
Speaker 1: had it out in the lobby where people would have
26:47
Speaker 1: to see it when they would walk by, including you.
26:51
Speaker 1: Every day you would see the face of this unidentified
26:55
Speaker 1: team girl when you would walk in and out. Fancy,
26:58
Speaker 1: I think that's what kept me motivating. Did I think
27:00
Speaker 1: knowing that that was there every single day just tugged
27:06
Speaker 1: at my heartstrings. Knowing that there was a parent, there
27:10
Speaker 1: was a brother, there was a sister, there was a
27:12
Speaker 1: grandpa grandma out there that had no idea where this
27:17
Speaker 1: person was. And I think that that motivation really kept
27:21
Speaker 1: me going on this case until I was able to
27:24
Speaker 1: open it back up in twenty fifteen. It was just
27:27
Speaker 1: that motivation seeing that every single day Nancy Dodgor Gallagher
27:32
Speaker 1: in modern day, do we keep DNA at the crime
27:36
Speaker 1: lab on unidentified Jane do's and John does so at
27:39
Speaker 1: some point we can continue trying to identify them. We
27:42
Speaker 1: certainly do, and as the years have gone by, we've
27:46
Speaker 1: increased our ability to preserve the DNA. We now know
27:50
Speaker 1: that it has to be in a dry and very
27:52
Speaker 1: cool environment and on certain media. Watman paper is typically
27:57
Speaker 1: what we use, and it can be preserved for decades
28:02
Speaker 1: and decades in perfect form and then examined, you know,
28:06
Speaker 1: very very far into the future to help solve a
28:10
Speaker 1: future old cold cases. Sheriff Mike Nilsen joining me from
28:14
Speaker 1: Boone County as the elected chriff there, who was a
28:17
Speaker 1: deputy sheriff at the time this girl's body was found
28:21
Speaker 1: partially decomposed. Every day he'd walked by a clay mold
28:26
Speaker 1: of her face and wonder, who is this girl? When
28:30
Speaker 1: did you get the idea to try and get a
28:33
Speaker 1: DNA mattch Sheriff. Well, I'll tell you what. I became
28:36
Speaker 1: the elected sheriff in twenty fifteen, and at that point
28:40
Speaker 1: in time. It wasn't soon after that that I met
28:43
Speaker 1: with my command staff and said, we owe it to
28:46
Speaker 1: this girl, we owe it to the family to try
28:48
Speaker 1: to identify her, and case is going to take top priority.
28:53
Speaker 1: And not long after I took office, we exhumed her
28:57
Speaker 1: body for the second time. Nancy, Oh, dear Lord Jim
29:01
Speaker 1: Elliot joining me out of one ROMs, Georgia high profile
29:03
Speaker 1: lawyer there, Jim, it is no easy thing to get
29:06
Speaker 1: an exhimation done. No, nor should it be. I mean,
29:09
Speaker 1: that's a very delicate process. So you know, the standards
29:14
Speaker 1: are very hot to provide a compelling an argument why
29:18
Speaker 1: that should happen. Let's take a listen to our cut
29:20
Speaker 1: to our friend, Sheriff Mike Nielsen. I am pleased to
29:25
Speaker 1: announce at this press conference significant investigative progress in the
29:30
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two Jane Doe case. I am proud to
29:34
Speaker 1: announce today that the investigation will be transitioning from identifying
29:38
Speaker 1: Jane Doe to an active homicide investigation. We will now
29:43
Speaker 1: focus on finding her killer and working hard to find
29:46
Speaker 1: out who dumped her body along and on ramp on
29:49
Speaker 1: I sixty five and State Road forty seven thirty years ago.
29:53
Speaker 1: On May third, next month, we have positively identified who
29:59
Speaker 1: we have to know as Jane Doe and can now
30:02
Speaker 1: call her Margaret an Stiakowski, also known as Maggie by
30:08
Speaker 1: her family from Toledo, Ohio at the time when Maggie
30:12
Speaker 1: was found, she was found one month prior to her
30:15
Speaker 1: eighteenth birthday and our cut three. This is Maggie's biological brother.
30:23
Speaker 1: The thing that stings about this the most, other than
30:26
Speaker 1: the fact that she's not here, is that my parents
30:29
Speaker 1: didn't get the closure while they were alive, and my
30:32
Speaker 1: mother lived with it quite the rest of her life. It's,
30:38
Speaker 1: you know, to me, it's it's a little bitter sweet.
30:42
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm happy. It doesn't seem like it because
30:45
Speaker 1: I'm crying, but I'm happy. I'm happy for my sister.
30:50
Speaker 1: One last thing to wonder about and worry. What is
30:54
Speaker 1: she okay. You know, I always wondered if she was
30:57
Speaker 1: abducted in sex trafficking or something and being abused or something,
31:02
Speaker 1: and all that's gone. And little did I know that
31:06
Speaker 1: she had been found a long, long, long time ago.
31:09
Speaker 1: And little did Maggie's family know that for years and years,
31:12
Speaker 1: one man never gave up Sheriff Mike Nielsen, the Boone
31:17
Speaker 1: County elected sheriff. Sheriff. Do you remember getting the news
31:21
Speaker 1: that there was a DNA identification of Maggie. Oh, my goodness,
31:26
Speaker 1: I was elated, yes, And in fact, when I got
31:31
Speaker 1: that news, Maggie was buried in our Popera Cemetery for
31:35
Speaker 1: all those years, which is right out in front of
31:37
Speaker 1: our jail and administrative office, along with about one hundred
31:41
Speaker 1: other folks that are buried there, some of them on identified,
31:45
Speaker 1: but this is the main one. That I went out
31:48
Speaker 1: to visit her on Mark Grave that day and for
31:52
Speaker 1: the first time I got to call her Maggie, and
31:55
Speaker 1: it was it was one of the most highlighted parts
31:58
Speaker 1: of my career. Nansie Time stories with Nancy Grace. David Middleman,
32:20
Speaker 1: DNA expert, the CEO of author Am Inc. You know David,
32:25
Speaker 1: when you hear the people that are involved in the
32:30
Speaker 1: cases that you see through a microscope. It's just got
32:35
Speaker 1: to be the most encouraging thing to know how much
32:40
Speaker 1: what you do means to people. It means the world
32:44
Speaker 1: to us, and it was heartbreaking and heartwarming at the
32:47
Speaker 1: same time to hear the words from her brother, you know,
32:50
Speaker 1: at the press conference and to know that this was
32:53
Speaker 1: important and that there's now going to be action taken
32:56
Speaker 1: to try to figure out what happened that it was responsible.
32:58
Speaker 1: David Middleman joining me AM eight. How do you make
33:02
Speaker 1: this type of DNA analysis with degraded DNA, Well, there's
33:07
Speaker 1: two steps. The first step is, you know, as as
33:10
Speaker 1: many of who've already discussed, we're working with DNA that's
33:13
Speaker 1: just in terrible shape. All forensic DANA is hard to
33:16
Speaker 1: work with, but this is DNA that's just particularly hard.
33:19
Speaker 1: So we've developed new methods, you know, that allow us
33:22
Speaker 1: to get information from DNA even when it failed every
33:25
Speaker 1: other method, and we generally only work on cases if
33:28
Speaker 1: they've already failed every other method. And the second part
33:31
Speaker 1: of it is that we use you know, things like
33:34
Speaker 1: familial matching genealogical research. Those are like the family trees
33:39
Speaker 1: you might use to find your relatives. We use those
33:41
Speaker 1: kind of techniques adapted for forensics to help find the
33:45
Speaker 1: nearest relatives. He's unknown because something people don't know is
33:48
Speaker 1: the CODA system is very powerful for solving crimes and
33:52
Speaker 1: for you know, catching the bad guys, but it was
33:55
Speaker 1: never designed to tackle this problem of the unidentified. This
33:58
Speaker 1: seventeen year old girl is a criminal who was not
34:01
Speaker 1: in kodis. So what do you do for the unidentified?
34:04
Speaker 1: Kotis will be designed for them. There's no tools available
34:07
Speaker 1: if you can't recognize them. There's really no recourse but
34:10
Speaker 1: to use DNA testing and try to find him. Demilindo
34:13
Speaker 1: Middelman joining me. The brains behind Authram Inc. Who every
34:21
Speaker 1: day brings closure and I don't know if there is
34:24
Speaker 1: any such thing as closure, but at least brings answers
34:27
Speaker 1: to grieving families. To Sheriff Nilsen, what can you tell
34:34
Speaker 1: me about Maggie's family, Well, I met Maggie's brother. I
34:38
Speaker 1: split up two teams, investigated teams. One went to Ohio
34:43
Speaker 1: to track down her sister and one went to Texas
34:48
Speaker 1: to track down her brother. I gotta tell you that
34:52
Speaker 1: Orthram has been great to work with. There's been this
34:55
Speaker 1: team that's worked on this over the years, and especially
34:57
Speaker 1: Orthram has been awesome to work with, and they provided
35:01
Speaker 1: this lead and once we got the DNA match from
35:05
Speaker 1: them again, we were a static but it was the
35:07
Speaker 1: beginning of trying then to track down the family members
35:11
Speaker 1: and we were able to do that in the first
35:14
Speaker 1: time I met her brother was when I knocked on
35:17
Speaker 1: his office door in Texas, and it was very emotional.
35:23
Speaker 1: He thought he was in trouble as I'm six foot seven,
35:26
Speaker 1: about two hundred and ninety pounds and I show up
35:29
Speaker 1: in a suit and a badge, and he thought he
35:32
Speaker 1: was in trouble for some reason. But as we walked
35:35
Speaker 1: back into his office and sat down with him and
35:39
Speaker 1: his fiancee to explain why we were there, emotions overcame
35:46
Speaker 1: both him and I and we shed a lot of
35:49
Speaker 1: tears that day and a lot of communication. But that
35:52
Speaker 1: was the first time I had met any of Magie's family.
35:56
Speaker 1: Do you Jim Elliott, high profile lawyer out of Warner Robbins,
35:59
Speaker 1: who's also been I believe the city attorney as well.
36:03
Speaker 1: You know, Jim Elliott. It kind of makes me keep
36:06
Speaker 1: going because we are so often disillusioned by elected officials.
36:12
Speaker 1: They cheat, they scam, they embezzle, They only care about
36:16
Speaker 1: re elect getting themselves reelected. And then when you hear
36:20
Speaker 1: someone who actually cares about their job, who's suffering over
36:28
Speaker 1: a case every single day, and who goes personally to
36:33
Speaker 1: meet the family, that is so encouraging me to meet,
36:37
Speaker 1: to keep trying. And I know you have certainly saying
36:41
Speaker 1: your share of naughty politicians. You know you're right, Nancy,
36:44
Speaker 1: And for today, I mean, I think you know that
36:47
Speaker 1: these unsolved matters tend to haunt a lot of people.
36:51
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I want to comment on
36:52
Speaker 1: is law enforcement lossers who would tire go back to
36:56
Speaker 1: do volunteer work for their agency because they never had
36:59
Speaker 1: the time to properly or to their mind, investigate to
37:04
Speaker 1: the fullest extent possible some of these unsolved cases. I'm
37:08
Speaker 1: impressed with people that could dedicate themselves to do that.
37:10
Speaker 1: And I gotta say, Sheriff Nielsen never gave up. You know,
37:15
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, you and I at Crime Con we're highlighting, okay,
37:20
Speaker 1: an unsolved murder, and you see firsthand every day how
37:28
Speaker 1: victims families suffer. Now we've got an id on Maggie,
37:32
Speaker 1: but we don't know who murdered her. Right, Well, I
37:36
Speaker 1: just want to piggyback about Sheriff Nelson. First two Nancy
37:38
Speaker 1: and what I respect what he did as technology advanced,
37:44
Speaker 1: He went back. He didn't just say well, we've got
37:47
Speaker 1: an autopsy, it's undetermined and I'm done it. He didn't
37:50
Speaker 1: exume her want He exumed her twice. So when the
37:55
Speaker 1: Clay Friends the Uti Street didn't work of her facial cognicians,
38:00
Speaker 1: he went back and got isotope. He went back and
38:03
Speaker 1: got DNA. He did everything he knew to do, and
38:07
Speaker 1: then even with that DNA went to doctor Mittelman at Oorthram.
38:12
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what you have to do with these cases.
38:14
Speaker 1: And I have a mantra, every tool on every case.
38:18
Speaker 1: Every time. There's no reason not to go back. And
38:22
Speaker 1: even if your budget doesn't allow it, there are some
38:25
Speaker 1: people that will help you raise money and donate money
38:28
Speaker 1: to get these testing done. Sheriff Nelson, why do you
38:32
Speaker 1: believe that this is a homicide? I mean, obviously to
38:35
Speaker 1: me that she's shut thrown on the side of the road,
38:39
Speaker 1: partially naked, tells me that she was sex assaulted and murdered.
38:43
Speaker 1: But what do you think the cod is going to
38:46
Speaker 1: end up being sheriff. Well, we've always thought that she
38:48
Speaker 1: was probably strangled, but because she was in the water,
38:51
Speaker 1: that was really hard to find lea get your marks
38:53
Speaker 1: in those tapes. But we're very confident that it's a
38:57
Speaker 1: homicide and that she was dumped there, and there's a
39:01
Speaker 1: lot of reasons behind that. And as I said in
39:05
Speaker 1: the press release, this is now a homicide investigation, and
39:10
Speaker 1: I hope that I have faith and we're going to
39:13
Speaker 1: continue that commitment to Maggie and to lend me in
39:16
Speaker 1: the rest of the family that we're going to solve.
39:18
Speaker 1: We're going to solve this case, and we're going to
39:20
Speaker 1: find out who did this. All these years after this
39:24
Speaker 1: girl all the way from Toledo ends up in Boone County, Indiana,
39:31
Speaker 1: her body does anyway. She was one of eight children
39:37
Speaker 1: and her mom died before she ever knew what happened
39:43
Speaker 1: to Maggie. She was murdered, we now know one month
39:48
Speaker 1: before her eighteen birthday. We wait as justice unfalse. Nancy
39:54
Speaker 1: Grace Grom's story Sonny Off Goodbye Friend one