Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Killers Amongst Us: (Part 3) Gorgeous Queens jogger Karina Vetrano murdered the one day dad stays behind.

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Killers Amongst Us: (Part 3) Gorgeous Queens jogger Karina Vetrano murdered the one day dad stays behind. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, Welcome back to Killers amongst Us,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: the production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. What happened to
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: this beautiful girl, Karina pa Toronto? Her father Phil finds
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: her body. Now the search for a killer leagues begin
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to pour in. Still no results. Can't catch who killed
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: this beautiful girl. What they found made even a hardened
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: detective turn away. Nancy Grace, Killers amongst Us, give me
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: a sense for the injuries Karina summer facial injuries. She
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: also had bruising on her body. We believe from being
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: dragged through those weeds welf area. So that's what we believe.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: We're that bruising on he came from. And when you
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: found her, she was still grasping to the weeds. She
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: had the weeds, stems of the weeds in her hands.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: What does that tell you she thought not to go
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: into those weeds. Contrary to several reports, Chief Boys now
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: confirms to me there was no DNA evidence founded the
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: scene to show that there would be rapist completed his
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: sexual assault. Karina's dad took me to that jogging trail
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: in Howard Beach where police found his beautiful daughter. I
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: don't know if this person was waiting for her, I
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: don't know if this person was following her. I don't
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: know if this person knew her routine, drove to the
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: other end and met her head on. You were hearing
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: our friends at Crime Watch Daily. That was Chris Hanson
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: with detective Robert Boyce with me, doctor Tim Gallagher, the
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: medical examiner for the State of Florida, Sharat LaPoint, DNA
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: genealogical expert with the gene Hunter LLC, renowned psychotherapist, doctor
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig, Steve Lampley, detective and Tony DeStefano News Day
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: reporter on the story from the very beginning, I want
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: to go straight to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: the State of Florida. Doctor Gallagher, what can we learn
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: from Karina's body? Well, we can learn a few things, Nancy.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Number one was, of course, you know how she died,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: in the manner in which she died. We can look
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: on her body for bruises and injuries that are a
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: fatal nature, and we could determine then the manner and
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: cause of her death. You know, at the beginning, to
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Tony DeStefano Newsday reporter, as you just heard it, was
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: stated that there was no DNA, but I don't think
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: that's accurate. Well, I think what Chris Hansen said, there
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: was no DNA which indicated that the killer completed a
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: sexual act, meaning semen for possibly saliva. There was DNA
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: found on Corina's body. There was DNA found on her
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: cell phone, and there was DNA found under her fingernails.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: So there was DNA. Uh, you know, it was touch
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: DNA except for the stuff under the fingernails, which was
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: more of a skin sample from what I understand. But
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: there was DNA. But that's all they had in the beginning,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: and certainly that's really all they wound up with for
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: a very long time. What type of DNA was obtained
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: from her, well, it was what they'd call a large
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: measure touched DNA, meaning it wasn't blood or saliva direct
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: bodily fluids from the suspect. It was skin cells that
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: had rubbed off through the touching of Karina on her body.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: That's that's a large measure what they found. Yet no
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: match to the DNA. To Tony's Stephano Newsday reporter, tips
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: begin to pour in and no matter how hard police try,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: no success. Listen over two hundred and fifty leads where
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: received from the public, and over seventeen hundred investigation investigative
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: reports were prepared. At one point, it seemed the case
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: had gone cold. She had the DNA under her nails,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: she had touched DNA on her on her back, and
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: there was more DNA on the cell phone. Tony to
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Stephano Newsday reporter Tony tell me about these hundreds of
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: tips pouring in. Oh, they were getting plenty of tips.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: I mean they were getting Well, when a case like
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: this happens, the cops are going to get plenty of tips,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: particularly in a rather cloistered and contained community like Howard
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Beach where everybody knows everybody. Uh, they're going to get tips.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: They're going to be tips coming in from all over
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: and from outside. But they were not leading to anything fruitful.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I mean the cops were going out, they were taking
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: DNA reference samples from any any one of a number
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: of people. You know, I would say hundreds of people.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: The search for a killer is on joining me. Karina's father,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Phil to Toronto. Phil, when you were first told that
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: there was no DNA, there were all these leads and
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: tips being called in cops weren't getting anywhere. What was
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: going on in your mindfield? I was working. I was hunting.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Every single day. I put up probably five thousand flyers.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I went on any network, any news program, any radio
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: show that would have me. I didn't stop. Every day
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: I was working. I was hunting for this killer. I
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: was putting up bannis, you know, and I advertised, you know,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: quart a million dollars reward for any lead that would
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: lead to the conviction of the killer. So that's what
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: I was doing at that time. Joining me right now,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: doctor Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist, Doctor Robbie that I mean, that
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: was all consuming. I remember being with Phil on Doctor
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Oz and all the many times Phil joined us here
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: as the search for Karina's killer went on here on HLN,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: anywhere we could publicize the case. That that burning quest
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: where you can't sleep, you can't eat, you can't think.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: What is that following the death of someone you love. Well,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: it's a tremendous amount of grief. And the grief is
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: very different when a child is murdered, because the thought
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: process goes directly to what happened during those final moments.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: What kind of pain were they in what kind of
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: fear were they experiencing? And as a parent, any parent
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: knows this. You want to protect your child from everything,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: from any kind of pain, so it's extraordinarily traumatic and painful.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: The loss of a child is the worst kind of
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: loss any parent can experience, and then due to murder,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: it's even more challenging to try to get through that
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: kind of grief. The inability to sleep, the inability to eat,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the inability to think straight. I mean, Phil the Toronto
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: I remember I couldn't stand to even hear a clock
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: tick after my fiancee was murdered. In the days following
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Karina's death, What was your life like? Well, it hasn't
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: changed much, Nancy. Basically, yeah, you're still You're still in disbelief.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I still don't believe it. You know, it seems like
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: it happened yesterday. Those first few days are complete blur or.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I don't remember what we did, I don't remember who
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: was here. It's impossible to even recall how we function.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: But you know your body does function. But it hadn't
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: change much. I mean, the pain, the grief, the anguish,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: it's still here every day, doesn't go away. Robbie, I
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: don't know how you move forward with that, but especially
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: when the killer remains at large, I don't know how
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: he put one foot in front of the other. Doctor Robbie, Well,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, as anyone will tell you, you go into
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: just automatic mode, just putting one step in front of
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the other. So it feels like your body is moving forward,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: but your mind is just kind of stuck in this trauma.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: What we know about traumas that it becomes three dimensional.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: And as your guest said that it feels like it
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: happened yesterday, because it probably is more vivid than what
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: happened an hour ago. And then the quest and the
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: purpose to find justice sometimes is what can keep parents
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: going to finally have their day in court, to find
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: the killer, to make sure that this never happens again,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: To find the meaning if you can in the horror,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I think is what keeps many people going forward. Well,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, to Karina's father Phil, the
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Toronto you were actually pulled out of Karina's funeral to
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: give DNA. Well, two police officers show it up. They came.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: You know, the week was only one day and it
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: was two days later, so we were we didn't know
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: what was going on. Two detectives showed it up and
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: said we'd like to see you in the back room.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: So we went into the back room and they said
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: we'd like a DNA example, and I said take whatever
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: you want. I said, if you need my you could
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: take my arm. And they swabbed me right there at
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: the foot of Apala because everybody was in suspect. You know, Phil,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I know that you, because of who you are, do
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: not hold that against the cops. And you were happy,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: happy to give your DNA. But I've got to say
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: the timing was, let's just say, very unusual. Phil Vatronto.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I think they wanted to eliminate me as soon as
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: possible because rumors were flying that the father did it.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: So they want to eliminate me as soon as possible
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: so they could focus on who really killed her. To
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Steve Lampley, detective, I thought that was harsh, But the
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: cops did have to get Phil Vatronto's DNA. Her own father.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: He was the last one to talk to her before
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: she went running. He's the one that called police in
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: law enforcement to come search. He's the one that started
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: searching for her. He couldn't stand still he had to
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: go look for himself. He is the one that found
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Karina's body out in the middle of really a very
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: wild life in a very wild environment. He found her,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: he says, from really divine inspiration led him to a
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: certain spot. Now I believe Phil the Toronto, but I
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: guarantee you a jury is going to want to know
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: that he was led to her body by divine intervention,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: not because he knew where her body was. That's why
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: they had to get the DNA. Steve lamp play of course, Nancy,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: And like he said, they want when police officers are investigators,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: began the investigation, and when we talked about this before,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: they started with the inner circle, and they worked their
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: way out, and they did want to eliminate and they
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: did want to put to rest these rumors that the
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: father was involved. And I will probably at the puneral
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: home at least to me, probably was not the best
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: place maybe afterwards, But being regardless of that and and
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: the bad timing, they did need to do that, and
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: they did need to eliminate the inner circle as quickly
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: as possible to quell those the gossip and the rumors. Well,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: you know what, I never heard those rumors fill the Trono,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: what rumor that you were involved in Karina's murder? Who
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: would say that? They're still saying that, Nancy, that there
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: was a certain group of people that on social media
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: that still think that the father did it. So this
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: continues to follow me. It doesn't bother me. It bothers
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: my wife more than it bothers me. But it doesn't
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: bother me because you have to take it from where
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: it comes. Doctor Robbie Ludwig, I guess I need a shrink.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Why would people do that? I mean, they got DNA
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Karina's body. It does not match her father feel Vatronto. So,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: as I always say to my children, okay, and I
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: say very often to defense attorneys, let's follow that argument
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: through to its logical conclusion. So, in order to reconcile
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the misbelief that Phil Vatronto had anything to do with
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: his daughter's murder, you would have to believe that she
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: goes jogging, that someone else comes and leaves their DNA
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: on her body, and then Phil comes and murders her,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: or that Fiel murders her and then someone else happens
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: upon her body and leaves their DNA on her that's
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: what that means. That's the logical conclusion of believing phil
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Vatronta had anything to do with her murder. My question,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: do you psychotherapy wise, is what is wrong with people? Well,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: when it comes to that sounds almost like a conspiracy theory, right,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, to certain people, that idea is preferable.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: And what we know, Nancy, is that when people are
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: coming up with different theories, there's a confirmation bias, and
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: people like to believe in their own rightness, and then
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: they eliminate the facts or they bend the facts so
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: that it makes sense or is in alignment with their
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: belief system. What we do know, and you know this, Nancy,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: is that very often murders happen you look at the
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: people in the family, but clearly that's not the case here.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: But I think that you have to look at the
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: culture that we live in and perhaps why certain people
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: want to believe that it might be the father in
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: this case instead of a young black man and whatever
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: that means to people. So I think that there's a
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: lot more that's going on here, But basically it's confirmation bias.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: When people think things through, they're thinking through emotionally not factually,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and that's where the law comes in hopefully. But why
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: you know that sounds like a very esoteric explanation, Doctor
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig, And I appreciate all of your education and
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: all of your training and your Facebook live show that
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: you do from Time Square and all that. I'm impressed.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: But I guess that I'm trying to figure out is
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: why are people so mean and hateful to fill the
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Tronto and his wife, after what they've lived through and
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: are still living through right this very minute, to go
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: online and post that he murdered Karina. It it makes
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: my stomach hot on the inside just to saying it. Well, listen,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: there is a very cruel and murderous drive that exists
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: in all of us. And there's keyboard courage, and we
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: see this a lot with people who are victims. Sometimes
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: people will join on the bandwagon and it's their opportunity
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: to to bully and to be aggressive and to feel powerful.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: There must be something about the storyline they don't like,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: or they find frightening or they find scary, so to
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: blame the father makes it, in their mind feel okay,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: or that the father is worthy of getting this level
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: of aggression. Listen, this is every parent's nightmare. You can't
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: watch and you can't watch your kids twenty four seven.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: And especially if you have athletic kids that are interested
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: in staying healthy. They're going to go out for a jog,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: They're going to go and work out, They're gonna walk
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: around the block. And on some level, to know that
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: some stranger can come in and rape and kill your
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: child and to not have the answers to these questions
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: is a very frightening scenario that many people can't think
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: through and tolerate. And now that we have social media
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: and people can be anonymously mean, sadly, that's very often
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: where people go. I'm looking at the evidence here. We
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: know that Carina had been strangled so tightly that a
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: handprint was actually found on her neck, DNA from her
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: killer found under her nails, on her back, on her
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: phone which was found in the weed several feet away.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I'm just thinking the crime scene through Phil the Toronto
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: at the moment the cops showed up at the wake
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: or at the funeral parlor and told you to go
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: to another room. Do you remember that moment and what
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: went through your mind? Yes? I remember it. And went
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: through what through my mind was, yeah, sure, let's go.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: You know, it was instantaneous. I had no objections and
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: I actually probably thought they were going to kill me
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: they caught somebody, because we thought that this was going
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: to be side of you know, right away. We were
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: so naive on how these things play out, you know.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: And editates two and a half years to come to
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: a conclusion. I had no objections whatsoever. You know, I'm
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: just trying to remember, and doctor Robbie, you and I've
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: talked about this many times. When I think back on
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: my fiance's funeral, it was a horrible, horrible blur. I
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: saw a portion of his face above his coffin. I
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: passed out. To this day, when I smell carnations, it
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: makes me physically sick. And how Phil Vitrano had the
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: strength to go in another room and say, here, sure,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: take my DNA, I don't know how I did it. Well.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Phil wanted justice and he knew that he was innocent,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and that's the way you behave when you're innocent of
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: a crime. You want to get to the bottom of
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: who the real killer is here, who the real rapist
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: is here? And so that's I can't speak for him,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: but we have him here so he could validate what
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I'm saying. He was an innocent man who wanted to
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: find the real killer, whatever it took. At that moment,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: he was thinking protectively of his daughter. We don't stop
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: protecting our children just because they're no longer with us.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: We still remain in protective mode. Joining me now, Shara Lapointe,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: DNA genealogical expert. She is with the gene Hunter ge
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: n E Hunter LLC. Shara, there was DNA at first.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: When the police thought there was no DNA, they were wrong.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: DNA was obtained from her cell phone, from her body,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: from under her fingernails. Why couldn't they find a match? Shara? Well,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Nancy law enforcement has access to databases that have DNA
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: from criminals. If someone is arrested for a violent crime,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: their DNA gets put in these databases. The problem is
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of these criminals are smart and they don't
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: get caught, or sometimes they haven't committed other crimes, so
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: their DNA is not in the system. So when the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: DNA runs through this CODA system and they look for matches,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: it's not found. Sure when you said codas to what
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: are you referring. CODIS is the Combined DNA Index System.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: It's a nationwide system that all law enforcement can update
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: DNA data two, so you can search for criminals and
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: typically in law enforcement, the DNA that you will find
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: if you get a hit in CODAS is either a
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: person an identity hit, or an evidentiary or a forensic hit.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: A forensic hit means that you get information, but you
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: don't get a direct hit on the killer. An identity
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: hit means you can identify the name of the killer
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: because they're in the data bank. Now, in this day
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and age, people are required to give their DNA when
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: they are convicted of a felony in almost every jurisdiction.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: But there are other ways. You have to give DNA
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: your fingerprints. For instance, when I became an assistant district attorney,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I had to give my fingerprints. In many, many lines
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: of work, you have to give fingerprints. DNA is another matter. Amazingly,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: even with a strong DNA sample, they could not get
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: a hit. Phil Viatronto, when you first learn there was
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: DNA from the killer, you believe the case will be
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: solved very quickly. Didn't you do so? Do Chief Voice?
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Because he told me he was in my house and
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: he said, we have DNA and he said this is
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: a Class three felon, meaning that he believed that this
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: couldn't be the killer's first time doing this. He thought
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: that we were going to get a DNA hit because
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: this is not a typical first crime for someone to commit.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: It was so horrific, you'll usually work your way up
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: to that to murder. Of course, the search was on.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at PIXI eleven, John Muller.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: There are some new details in the murdered Queen's Jago
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: karina Va, Toronto case. New video shows the thirty year
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: old on her last run, a short time before she
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted and strangled. Another video obtained by the
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: show Crime Watch Daily, shows the Toronto entering Spring Creek
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Park and Howard Beach on August second, about five hours
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: before her body was discovered. Police have a DNA profile
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: of a killer, but have not been able to match
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: it to anyone. Investigators say her relatives an ex boyfriend
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: have all been cleared as suspects. At the moment, we
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: do believe that was a stranger rape in the sense
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: that they have very extensively looked into her relationships over time,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: where she worked, relationships, boyfriends, etc. And none of that
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: has come to fruitions. To Tony to Stephano Newsday reporter,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: we were just hearing about actual video of Karina just
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: before she was ambushed. I remember that video. It's of
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: her jogging along. You see she's got earbuds in her ears.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Where did that come from? It came from a home
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: video or a home surveillance system set up on one
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: of the homes not far from Karna's house. I believe
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: it was around the corner, you know, one of these
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: normal security videos that family's put up, and that's where
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: it came from and caught her. And that snippet I
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: think probably was about five seconds, is that I've heard
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: jogging with her earbudge in and they're sort of loping
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: up the street to the park. I have watched that
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: video over and over and over. I've done it in
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: slow mo I put a spotlight on her earbuds. I've
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: done it in such slow motions so I can look
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: around to see if I saw anybody in the background. Phil,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: did you do the same thing? Of course they did,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: of course they did. That was typical normal thing to do.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, we had a video of her, and I
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: was actually seeing faces in the weeds, like imagining, look
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: is it isn't that a person that's hiding in the
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: weeds over there? And you know, you were looking at
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: anything that you could could find that that could show somebody,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: show somebody, but there was nothing. Now, you know, when
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I hear him say, doctor Robby Ludwood, psychotherapist, that he
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: was seeing faces in the weeds, that just breaks my heart.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: He was looking so hard to catch his daughter's killer. Yeah,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: so you know, of course, you know you're you're looking,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: You're wanting to find details. You want to find some
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: kind of indication of who this murder is, who this
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: murderer is, And you know, you begin to see things,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: you begin to over you know, rely on your eyes
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: and see what you want to see. And again we
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: hear the desperation and the motivation to try to find
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: out who's responsible for committing such a horrific crime, a
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: stranger crime, which is which is so hard to kind
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: of wrap one's head around. Why would a stranger want
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: to kill an innocent girl who has her whole life
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: ahead of her. It just is incomprehensible. You know, I'm
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: thinking through the evidence, it just it confounds belief that
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: you have her on video, you have DNA, you have
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: a timeline, but you can't catch the killer. As the
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: weeks drag on, fill the Toronto. What did that do
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: to you and your wife? Like I said, before I
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: was working, I was hunting. Every day. I would go
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: out and I put up fliers and I was looking.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: I was I walked the trail from beginning to end
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: a hundred times looking for any piece of evidence. I
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: found goggles that you would wear if you were on
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: a dirt bike, and I didn't touch them. I call
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: the cops, I said, listen, I found this day came
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and they did a DNA test on it. So I
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: was involved at that point. My wife, on the other hand,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: you know, she was not involved with the search. So
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: she was in more pain and more anguish and she
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: just didn't know what to do. You know, we did
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: news conferences and she was involved in that, but she
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: wasn't involved in the actual putting up flies and the
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: icll of it hunting, because that's what I was doing.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I was hunting. Take a listen to our friends at
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: ABC seven the family of Koreana Pa Toronto marks six
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: months since her murder. It is one of the city's
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: most high profile crimes, and her family pushing for a
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: type of DNA testing that could find the person who
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: killed her. We were live on Facebook as they made
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: that announcement. I would miss News Reporter Marcus sold Us
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: is live from Howard Beach with more on what the
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: family is pushing for. Marcus no doubt about him. Philma
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Toronto says he is in a war fighting to find
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: his daughter's killer, and on this the six mark since
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: her death, he is calling on state lawmakers had changed
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: the guidelines regarding DNA testing. The Vitranos, Members of the
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Howard Beach community, as well as elected officials, gathered at
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the spot where Karina Vatranto was last seen alive. The
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: thirty year old was found dead last August in the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: woods of Spring Creek Park that's where she would routinely jog.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Profilers who have studied the case believe the killer may
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: have been a park regular who since disappeared from the area. Now.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Vatranto fought off her attacker and DNA was recovered, but
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: there's been no match in federal and state databases. The
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Vatrantos are urging either the state legislature or the state
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Commission on Forensic Science to authorize what's called familial matching,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that is, the widening of the screening process the see
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: of genetic relatives of the killer are in the database.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: New York does not allow it, but ten other states do.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: The main opposition comes from the ACLU, which cites privacy concerns.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: The Vatranos naturally disagree. There is nothing that any education,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: hated scientists or opposer could ever ever tell me that
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: could could justify not using a tool to find a murderer.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: That is the ass there. You know, there's no substitute
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: for good hard police work, police investigative work. Well, the
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: patronos will testify at a public hearing next week and
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: they hope to get those guidelines changed. As for the investigation,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: the NYPD says it continues to pursue leads and the
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: reward in this case is well passed the two hundred
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars mark. You know, when I think about what
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: you were going through at that time, fill Latronto and
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: then you have to take on the legislature to get
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: familial DNA. But first to share La point DNA genealogical
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: expert with the gene hunter Shara, what is familial DNA,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: So Nancy, familial DNA is actually um it's a DNA
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: search that looks for matches when you don't have an
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: exact match in these databases. So we have normally twenty
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: markers that are looked at when the DNA is run
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: through the CODA system. If you get a match at
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: twenty markers, you you have your perpetrator. But we can
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: also look for less markers than twenty. If you get
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: a match at about ten or ten markers or so,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: that suggests a person is closely related, could be a parent,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: a child, or a sibling. So it's another way at
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: looking through the DNA to find the answers. During all
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: of this, the family doing everything they can to find
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Carina's killer. To Tony DeStefano Newsday reporter, what was going
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: on behind the scenes to solve the case, Well, they
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: were stumped, as they admitted many times, they had the
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: DNA and what they did was, you know, they couldn't
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: really use familiar DNA because it wasn't improved in the
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: state yet. But what they were doing was sort of
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: changing their m and they started to go back into
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: old police reports, even those that didn't have anything to
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: do with any suspicious activity like a homicide or a robbery,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: and they started to call through previous sightings of people
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: or arrests of people, or people who were stopped in
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: the Howard Beach neighborhood. And they were really up against it,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: and they had to sort of change their tactic because
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the traditional tactic of DNA searching and assessing all the
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: leads that came in it wasn't working for them. So
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: they had to go further back and look at things
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: that they might not have ordinarily looked at, looking at brakens,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: attempted brakens, people that were loitering, people even that had
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: thrown out trash in the area, people that had littered
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: along that stretch of road. I remember it so well.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Filled the Toronto cops were actually pulling up police reports
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: of perpetrators that had been sitting on cars, drinking beer
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: in a can, or had thrown down a beer can,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: or just just any minor, minor violation of law and ordinance.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: They were going through every single police report. Do you
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: remember that, Phil, I felt like I was directly involved
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: with the investigation. You know. Um, they kept us in
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the loop, and I do They checked out every single
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: possible lead, like you said, picking up beer can and
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: picking up bottles, picking up trash, and then a break
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: in the case. To Tony de Stefano Newsday reporter, what happened, Well,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: there was a commander of detectives by name of John Russo,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: and he was intimately involved with the investigation, and he said, look,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: we got to go a different way in this case.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: So he decided to go back over an old stop
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: of somebody, a young man and Howard Beach in May,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: about two or three months before the murder, and they
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: were fishing around and they say, well, let's who was
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: this guy, and they were trying to find out who
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: he was. Fortunately for the cops, there wasn't any stop report,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: so they had to go back into an old police
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: memo book to divine his name, and that's where the
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: case took off. Take a listen to this un emergency.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: It's a suspicious mail if so and he's a suspicious
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: person just walking back and forth around the block. Yeah,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: he's looking in yards around different blocks to bind himself.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: He's wondering around the block. Yes, walking up and down
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: the blocks with a hold on and just stopping in
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: front some houses. And he keeps going that he stopped
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: with us. They So you have a black block the
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: tracks through all with a white, white and black shop.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: It's the spiciest person outside. And you're saying that he's wondering,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: walking up and down the block, and you're seeing that
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: he's also looking into um yards. Boy keep stopping a
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: part of different houses, and that he keeps walking on.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: But he's got trucking. He's going back to the same
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: way he came lumerous A police would hope I'll help.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Is abody underway to have a few more questions apart
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: and look at it. It's not a it's not a Sartaine.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. Just report a suspicious person, okay? And
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: what is u? The descussion? Is he black? White? Hispanic
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: agent interviews to be I don't know if he's aptical. Okay,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: So he's male, sark skin and and you said he's
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: wearing a black and white track. Shoot, so correct is
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: we're black, black rocks a blockhead block the lights up.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: You're a mon fromwhere I'm sorry, you can exact Lieutenant, Yes,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: from what comprecent working quarter? Headquarters? Ye, okay, headquarters. And
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: but you're also that you said, right, okay, okay for
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: reading number one eight four sevens all right, Greg, you're
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: giving them my number to feel the try to create
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: his dad, Phil, How in the world was this old?
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: It's not even a police report of a suspicious person
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: in the neighborhood months before. In fact, there's just really
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: notations in a police notebook. How did that lead to
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: this nine one one call? The nine one one call
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: was by like Tony says Lieutenant Russo, of a suspicious
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: person just walking around the neighborhood. And thank god that
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: they were able to find a name, and with that name,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: they were able to find an address, and they looked
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: up his past history and he did have a violent past,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: so they used that as a reason to get a
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: sample from this person. You know, to doctor Robbie Ludwig, psychotherapist,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of people say, it's just a hunch, a hunch.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: They had a hunch they should look at people loitering
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: in the area, people that had been wandering the area
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: of suspicious activity. That never really amounted to a police report.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: But you know, what doctor, Robbie. You and I have
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: discussed this many times. I don't really believe in hunches.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: I think hunches are ideas that you get because of
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: literally millions of years of evolution of radar. Internal radar
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: are of things you may have seen in the past
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that you didn't even register. Of something you hear, something
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: you smell. You don't know why you get a hunch.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: But I consider a human being like a living radar
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: machine that's circling around and around and around and around,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: and you pick up on things that may mean nothing
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: to your brain, but inside it means something to you.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's a lot more than a hunch. Dotor
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Robbie Ludwig. I agree with you, Nancy. And when somebody
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: is talented and also skilled in an area, they're plugged
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: into facts and feelings in a certain way that really
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: can produce important results. I came across a quote once
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: that said intuition is putting together facts very quickly, and
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: I think at its best, that's exactly what intuition is.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: And that's what a hunch is, and it's worth following
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: because very often it could lead us down the right
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: path and answer many questions that we have about various
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: situations in our lives. Just think about it. Months have
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: passed since Phil Vitronto finds his daughter brutally murdered. Months
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: pass even with a video, even with DNA, still no suspect.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Fast forward February two, seventeen, NYPD Lieutenant John Russo suddenly
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: remembers a complaint from the year before. May the year
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: before about a suspicious guy wearing a hoodie and sweatpants
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: on a hot day. A hoodie and sweatpants on a
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: hot day looking at houses in the Howard Beach area.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: The next day, the same guy pacing in a parking lot.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Residents reporting a similarly dressed man with a crowbar in
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: his hand going in and out of back yards. Nobody
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: can find a crowbar. Nobody observed a crime, but it
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: remained in the mind of the NYPD lieutenant, and finally
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: a name emerges. Chanel Lewis Nancy Grace, signing yall goodbye
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: for