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Think a Part-Time Boss Can't Be a Greater Leader? Think Again · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's Work it Like a Mum podcast.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Donna Wayman, who is a strategic leader.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: She has 15 years of success directing end-to-end delivery of large-scale transformation programs that enable operational technology and business changes across the financial services sector.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: She currently works for Zurich Insurance on a part-time basis as their Chief Operating Officer, and I was really excited to chat with Donna because I've been a long-term fan of Zurich Insurance because they were the first firm in the UK to advertise all their roles as open to flexible and part part-time working.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: So we're going to be chatting with Donna about what the impact of that policy has had on Zurich insurance and on the sector as a whole as well.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, donna, for joining me today.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you, so we were chatting with you before we hit record and I know that you've been with Zurich for a long time Were they your first employer.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: So I came out of university with a drama and English degree and wanted to go into some sort of business corporate management world and I went for loads of jobs and Zurich were the one that kind of were the right fit for me and I was obviously the right fit for them.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: So I joined as an operations graduate 19 years ago now.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: So a long time ago.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: And what's made you stay then?
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Because it's a long time to work for one employer.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I always thought that I'd go and do the grad scheme and then go and find something different.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I was like I don't really know about insurance, it can't be that interesting, and you know, I was just completely wrong about it.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I found a little niche in a world that I really loved in terms of my project management and kind of organizational change capabilities just really fit really well in Zurich.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I absolutely love the culture and I love the people that I work with and every time I've got bored and started looking around and said I need more challenge, I need to do something bigger and better.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: There's always been somewhere else for me to go and another opportunity internally.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: That's meant I've never had the need to look outside, which I think is the joy of having kind of a large organization with lots, of, lots of room to grow and expand your skills without having to make it a big dive.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: So it was never a considered plan.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Um, I think also back in the day where you needed to have service before you had mat leave, a lot of that middle part of my career was around.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe I could go elsewhere and maybe I should look around, but actually I want to have children and I know I want to have them return to leave.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: So I think that it's good that things have changed a bit now.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: But that kind of that, that definitely kind of stuck me in the middle of my career as well.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: And then more recently, um, I used to work in the UK business and I've moved to a global role.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: So again, you kind of outgrow one bit of the business and you go, oh look, there's this whole globe of experience over here that I can get involved in now.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: So I just think it's that, that ability to kind of do bigger and better things that just keeps coming in this organisation that's just kept me there alongside, like I say, great culture, great people.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: And I think what's the joy about you is that you're in such a senior role part-time, because a lot of companies aren't you know, as we know, unfortunately aren't supportive of part-time, particularly at a senior level.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: I've spoken to so many people on this podcast and in real life that have told, told me, you know that they once they asked for part-time, they were told they'd have to come back in a lower role.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is a massive kick in the teeth yeah, and it is really interesting, isn't it?
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: because, like we said, every job is advertised full-time, part-time, job share.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: The reality of how you make that work is different and I think there is a kind of an education process to people that you, that you talk to, about these roles.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: So you know, when I applied for this role as a COO it's a big role, it's a global role you know, it's not really been done on a part-time basis before and I work kind of slightly condensed and shorter hours, over three and a half days a week and kind of.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: I think partly that it comes with trust and understanding each other and understanding the fact that in a senior role you do have to be more flexible.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So I won't lie and say that is all I work and I walk out the door.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: You know I'm very flexible and I do do things on other days and change my days and work around, because I think the reality of a senior role is you have to, because I think the reality of the senior role is you have to, um, but I think also, having done it for you know I've done anything, from when I came back from mat leave, I was doing 20 hours, you know, and I've done full-time and everywhere in between.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: But actually you start to work where your limits are, what you can and can't do and what you're willing to compromise on um to also have that security of the fact that you aren't full-time when you do have that time that you can protect for your kids.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: So it's a.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: It's a juggle and a balance is not easy, but I've had all the right support from my managers through the years to be able to do that and to work with me to kind of make that work and both for them and for me at home.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I know it's a big role and I know that there's obviously flexibility on both sides, but how have you set boundaries?
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Because I think that's another thing, isn't it that?
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: You know people say they work part-time in practice, but actually they'll be checking emails, they'll be responding things on Friday, and I know that that's quite can be quite natural.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: But have you managed to set some boundaries and yeah, it was an interesting conversation because when I um took this role and kept it on my part-time basis that was two years ago now my said to me if you are going to work on the days that you're not being paid for, why are you doing it?
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Just go back to full-time.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: And I said, well, you know what I'm not.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I'm going to find a balance and I'll do the urgent stuff and the immediate stuff, but I will try and protect that time.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I keep myself busy so that I can't just get into that temptation of I've got nothing else to do.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Or you know, there's that email there, I'll do it.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: So I've used a lot of it.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: My kids are older, they're 10 and 12, so they don't have that immediate kind of day-to-day need for me.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: They're not at home.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: So I've done other things, like go to the gym regularly and you know the things, the things that make me feel great like and it's stupid things going to get my nails done or doing my hair on a weekday instead of going on a Saturday morning when everyone's at home.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: So I try and fill my days that I don't work with jobs that give me time back at the weekend for my kids, um, and and find that balance.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: I'm also a trustee for a charity um, aching arms.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: They're a baby loss charity and one of the reasons I kept my part-time hours is because I want to make sure that I can do that, that job as a trustee and give them the time that they need, and that feels like a really positive thing to do on my days that you know I'm not working.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think the boundaries has been very much around filling my time so I don't get distracted.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: But also, um, you know that that the school day is quite short when you get to it, isn't it?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: So by the time you drop them off, you do a couple of jobs and you're back in picking them up and then just trying to be present with them when I get home and doing stuff with them when they're not at school.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: That's really good tip.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: You know that, you know and I bet you feel like you've got a nice work-life balance and you feel like you know because there's a lot of things there about self-care and yeah, it actually sounds like you've getting this your.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: What I love about this is you this time you have like a day, day and a half week or whatever with your kids now at school.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: You really get a chance to fill your cup and I guess then you're so present.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: You know you can be, you know bring so much more than to work and time it definitely um, reduces the mum guilt.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: I think when I used to be like doing stuff for myself on a weekend.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I still do stuff for myself.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: But it definitely reduces that mum guilt because you think, well, I've done that in the week, so it's out the way, and I think that does definitely help how I feel about the compromises I make, because there are many days a week that I'm not there doing pick up and drop offs and I work I live in Southampton and work in London, so it's a long, a long day and I don't generally see the kids or do any child care when I'm doing that every week.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Um, so I think I think, yeah, it's a challenge, but I do feel like it does reduce the mum guilt and it does give me that time and I try helps me not feel guilty about the fact that I do want to do things that are for me yeah, no, I love that.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I'm really like that's such a positive thing to do, because I have been guilty sometimes of booking my hair on a Saturday when actually I can't you know, being self-employed, it can go in the week, um, and I think that's so nice that you have that, you know, time for you and, as someone that likes getting my nails done, it's just, it's just little things, isn't it that then you feel like you've had a chance to be you and I think that all kind of builds, like you say you're like how you feel about yourself and how you feel about going into work, and kind of builds like you say you're like how you feel about yourself and how you feel about going into work, and kind of representing women in a corporate environment.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You know you, for me, I want to feel like I'm the best version of me, both in my mind but also in how I present myself and how I look.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: So for me, it makes you feel better.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I think it makes you better at what you do day to day yeah, so you went part-time.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: When did you go part-time?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Was it before 2019?
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: and then yeah it was well before that.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: So I had my son in 2012 and when I came back from having him, I went, I came back on, like I think, three days a week initially.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Um, so yeah, it was well well before that, and how was it like making your flexible working request then?
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was terrified.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like because it wasn't really talked about back then and like nobody really did it and it was a bit of an odd conversation to have.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't have been, because I was incredibly well supported.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I'd actually been promoted while I'd been on maternity leave, so that was amazing and it's such a.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: You know, you don't hear about that now, never mind back then, but that was such a confidence boost but also a bit like oh, now I want to do this job on three days.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: How is this going to work?
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, but they were super supportive and you know what I would say is that the majority of the jobs I've done, it's been about self management, so it's been about right, what do I delegate or do differently to try and make the job fit in, with support from my manager?
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: It's never been about cutting out massive parts of the role, but mainly, I think, because I haven't wanted to.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: That option would be there, but I wanted to try and do as much of it as I can and I think you just become this expert in kind of prioritisation and delegation to make sure you're making the most of every minute you're in the office.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, they've been.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: They were incredibly supportive, but I found it quite nerve-wracking, um, and then I've I've adjusted it maybe three or three times since then.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Um, and again all been very supportive conversations.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: But it is a negotiation right it's.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: You know, can I do the job?
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Does that work for you?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: You know, how?
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: How will that?
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: How will we manage that?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: And I think going into those conversations well prepared and having thought through what the responses might be really helps for you to have a kind of proactive discussion and, and more likely, to come to an agreement that works for both sides.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: I know that you are.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: You obviously had negotiated your part-time contract contract well before 2019 when you did their initiative.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Obviously, you were probably a bit you know.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Hopefully, you showed them that it could work and were the inspiration for that scheme.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Do you know what inspired them to be the first company to advertise all roles as open to flexible part-time work?
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: so it's open to flexible part-time work.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: I think generally in that time we were going through such a kind of D&I driver in terms of we'd set up our women's network.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: We were really looking at how we could get more women into senior roles and what the barriers were to that.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: So you could see that kind of correlation between wanting to open it up.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And I remember back when they launched it kind of very early on, they said they'd had something like a fourfold increase of the number of women applying for roles because they wouldn't have otherwise.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Um, and I know recently I think recently when they've just kind of come back around on it back in 2024 they said that you know they're hiring a huge fourfold increase in females hired part-time.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And I think if you build that kind of career path for people in that career journey and they see that it can be done, then actually you're more likely to.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I definitely benefited from it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: That I mean the role I applied for two years ago as a COO if it had been full time I wouldn't have taken it so and I wouldn't have applied for it.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have even put my name in the ring, because so even internally, when you look at it and go.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know I can apply for that because that conversation is open immediately Because you know, and there's even a drop down when you apply what basis do you want to apply for this job?
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, right, I want to apply for it part time because that's what I do now.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: So I think it just, you know, that imposter syndrome of thinking I'm not good enough for the job, coupled with I don't want to do it full time, just makes people go.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not going to apply.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: So I think it just opens up all that.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Well, no, I can apply actually, and this is a conversation we're allowed to have and it's an encouraged conversation.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: So I think you know, it's just that.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I think it's just that we've been on a continued drive, not just around women but, you know, diversity overall and I think that was kind of that was the start of that journey that just blossomed into a whole, a whole array of of different um employee resource groups that cover a number of areas, which it's just brilliant to see and it really helps everyone feel kind of part of Zurich and it really drives the culture that we have yeah, what about the stats for Ben as well?
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: do you have some stats or do you know, like, if there's any, you know how many you interesting to you, know, know what the gender split is?
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't know that specifically, I don't have the stats in front of me, but I know in my own experience in my teams previously and now, that we're seeing more men request part time, flexible working arrangements.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Um, and I I really like that because I used to always be the woman and really trying to.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: You know, my husband does a vast majority of my chat, of our child care and I think you know not having a stigma around that.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: So so having men being feeling like you know they can do the same and if you know they can ask for it, and actually being able to be part of that child care solution, I think when I talk with women who are working and in the corporate world, you know, I say you know it's a partnership, isn't it?
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: If you're lucky enough to have a partner there, it's a partnership and it shouldn't just be about where you flex, it should be about that, where they flex.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: So the more companies have the ability and encourage that and see more men do it, I think is it is an excellent thing.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, like I say, I've certainly seen more, more men in my teams coming and having back after having their pat leave and coming back and saying actually I want to do something different and that's great well, that's really good.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, and obviously we're speaking at such an interesting time when a lot of companies are rolling back on their DE&I initiatives.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: We've seen it, you know, in the news recently.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: What's your stance on that?
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen anything kind of that that indicates a move away from the, the route that we've been taking for the last, you know, 10 years nearly, um.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: So I think it's part of our culture, it's the way we work and it's something that will live as part of what we do, that kind of that view of of promoting diversity and and continuing to track and measure where we are against some of those key kind of measures for diversity and inclusion.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: And I know you might not have the stats on this, but it might just be.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: You know anecdotally what you've seen.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: But what do you think has been the benefit to Zurich as a business for investing in DE&I so heavily?
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I think that ability to get diverse perspectives into any conversation, but also in more senior roles, I just think that diversity of thought that you get from having people with different backgrounds, people from different cultures, you know different genders, really helps drive more innovative business solutions and more constructive conversations.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: So I think there's definitely that element of it that is excellent.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: And you know my own management team.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: It was all men before and then when I joined I replaced a lady and actually you know the challenge that you bring is somebody who comes at it from a different perspective, and the way you can represent other people in the teams that are more in your circumstances is really helpful.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: So I think, I think I think that's probably the overriding thing that I see just that really productive, really diverse thoughts that bring kind of more challenge and more growth and progression yeah, absolutely so.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: What's next for your career then?
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Where do you see it going after this um?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: I absolutely love the job that I do at the moment, um, and it's because it's global and because it gives me the ability to work across different countries and with different external areas.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: It's a it's a role that I won't get bored in quickly, which is really, really nice.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: So I'm I'm going to, I'm going to sit comfortably in this role for a little while, I hope, depending on what changes around me, but I'm absolutely enjoying it and I feel like there's so much growth I've still got to have in it and ability to understand the industry more.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Um, so I think, focusing on that, I it's interesting because I always used to be a drive, drive, drive, move, do something different.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Um, but I think I'm at a point in my career where I really really enjoy what I do and my work-life balance is challenging but manageable, um, and I really like the people I work with.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: So, for once, I'm kind of sat quite happy.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Um, I want to make sure I'm continuing to spend time with my kids and I want to make sure that I'm continuing to kind of learn in the industry that I'm in.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Um, it was quite a big change when I moved two years ago to quite a different part of the insurance market.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: So that's been amazing and I absolutely love the.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I'm in the legacy insurance um, I absolutely love it.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: So I think I'm just gonna learn more, make more contacts and and enjoy how that plays out over the next few years.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I'm sure anyone listening to this is going to be like really interested in Zurich and um the jobs you offer.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Do you know how people can best apply for roles?
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: So we have vacancies online that people can apply for.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: So all our jobs are advertised and they are advertised globally.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: There's such such a diverse range of roles available.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I always thought insurance was really dull.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: I didn't really know much about it and I spent a lot of my career in the data space in the data and tech space as well, which I was like.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure I can really do that with a drama and English degree, but both that kind of insurance and data world just has such a breadth of opportunity and I think people that haven't considered insurance or don't think that it's something that their skills could apply to, that their skills could apply to.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: I hope that more people start to see it as an interesting place to come somewhere that you know is fulfilling a public need and looking after people at their worst times and just really.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: You know, I thought insurance was car and home insurance when I started and it's just so much more than that Corporate insurance and the sustainability aspects of it.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, all the jobs are advertised, but I think my my biggest takeaway when I talk to people about insurance is don't don't pigeonhole it into it being something dull and boring and old.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Think about it as something that's far more innovative and interesting and diverse um than you would imagine yeah, absolutely.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: And how can people connect with you if they wanted to learn more about you?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: uh, linkedin.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: So, um, I love a bit of linkedin.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: You'll see a lot of posts from me normally about being a mom or working part-time or the insurance industry or, um, my, I do a lot on workplaces around, um compassionate care for women and partners that have lost babies and how the Workplaces can support people.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of my vibe on LinkedIn.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, always happy to make a connection, oh brilliant, and I know a lot of the people that listen to this are parents of younger children, and if you could go back, you know, 10 years ago, what would you say to yourself?
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: And you know, maybe some advice to people listening about the juggle and managing you.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I just think the number one thing is you probably think about the decisions you make far more than anybody else does, so things feel really big in your own head when you decide you're not going to do that meeting or you're going to leave early to do something.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: And they're not as big to anybody else.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And I wish I'd realized that earlier, because I used to agonize over calls I had to make and where I needed to be and child care responsibilities.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: But actually in most cases you can just do what you need to do and do a good job at work and it will be fine.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Um, I also think knowing that you can't be the best everything all the time.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: So by that I mean you can't every day be the best mum, wife, friend and best at work.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Some days some things have to win and other things have to be put to one side.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: So you know, when my kids were younger, there was days where I'd be like, right, work needs to take a back seat.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be a really good mom today because something's going on, and the next day I would be able to say you know, actually I need to, I need to put work first and actually I'm not going to be there for the kids.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: But kind of owning that and recognizing that that is the reality of life, I think is really empowering as a mom and as somebody in the workplace to go right today that's winning, but tomorrow I can give my all to this, and kind of making owning those decisions actually takes away a lot of that thought process and guilt around what you are and aren't doing.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: And the other thing I would say and I say this all the time is the earlier that you can support your children to be as self-sufficient as they can, the better off you'll be in the long run.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Um, so you know, if you put their shoes in every day, make their lunch, you know, do every single thing for them, then you're kind of creating a rod for your own back in the future.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Um, so I think the more you can think about how do you empower them to do what they need to do and support them to learn and grow so that you can then be easier in the future, I think it's a really good thing.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: And the final thing I would say is as soon as they're able to understand what you do and why you do it, I think that's really empowering for you and them.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: So you know my kids understand why I go to work.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: They understand what it brings us in our lifestyle.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: They also understand that I really enjoy it and I want to go to work.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: They understand what it brings us in our lifestyle.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: They also understand that I really enjoy it and I want to go to work.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Um, and that's something I've drilled in from when they were very little because I think it shows them, you know, the benefits of why I work to them, but also what I get from it and why it's important.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: So I think and actually that works.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: A joy can be a joy as well, and that's something for them to aspire to, because I remember being a kid and my dad not liking his job and then I would sort of grew up thinking it would work is something people don't enjoy, um, but actually it's nice to have that.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Flip that and say, actually I really like going to work.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it's something.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: It doesn't always pay in your favor, though, because I went on a work trip last year over to the States and they came back and they said, did you have a nice time?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: And I said yeah, but it was quite hard work.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: And they went oh, but you were on holiday, weren't you?
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I?
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: was like I do love my job but it wasn't holiday.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: It was very, very hard work, but, yeah, it joining me today.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: We'll put all the links to Zurich and to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Brilliant, thank you.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.