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2026 MMIP Awareness Month in SRPMIC · Asked & Answered - your community podcast for all things legal

• 0:00
  Kierstin: This episode includes discussions of trauma, loss, and missing and murdered indigenous people. These topics may be difficult or triggering. Please take care while listening.
• 0:13
  So this is where our stories diverge because so it's so crazy because I kinda have some similar story, and we've never
• 0:21
  Alane: shared this. We've never talked about this at all.
• 0:23
  Kierstin: Yeah. So the thing is here, what I've learned today is if you want advice about this, you send them to Elaine. You don't send them to me. Welcome to Ask and Answer. This is Kirsten Anderson, and I'm joined here with my cohost, Elaine Breland.
• 0:43
  Alane: Hello.
• 0:44
  Kierstin: Today, we're gonna talk about MMIP Day or actually not a day. It's a month. Right?
• 0:51
  Alane: Yeah. MMIP Awareness Month in Salt River.
• 0:54
  Kierstin: And what does MMIP stand for?
• 0:57
  Alane: MMIP stands for Missing and Murdered Indigenous People. That is the acronym that the community has chosen. But you might also hear it referred to as MMIWG for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls or MMIWG plus to encompass not only, people who aren't women and girls, but also, the transgender community. The Navajo Nation refers to it as MMDR, I believe, which is Missing and Murdered Dine Relatives. So you might hear a lot of different acronyms, but they all essentially refer to the same movement.
• 1:32
  And in Salt River, it is reflected as MMIP Awareness Month.
• 1:37
  Kierstin: Okay. And do you know why we're doing this for a whole month?
• 1:42
  Alane: Yeah. So I don't speak for counsel, obviously. Yeah. But I was part of the resolution process. And essentially, initially, it was presented as a proclamation of MMIP Awareness Day to coincide with the National MMIP Awareness Day on May 5.
• 1:59
  But counsel, as part of their discussions, really wanted to ensure that enough time was set aside so that it was an accurate reflection of the movement, not just an afterthought, not just a day, but we're gonna sit with this for a whole month and reflect on people who we've lost. We're gonna allow families this space to mourn and to bring attention. And I think it also just reflects that a lot of times these cases don't get a lot of coverage. They don't get a lot of attention. Yeah.
• 2:30
  And so we're gonna make sure that in Salt River, they do.
• 2:33
  Kierstin: Gotcha. So before I get into talking more about those pieces, we do have a day that we're doing some events, if you will. Yeah. But this event, I believe, is coming up pretty quickly. Yes.
• 2:48
  When is that? May 5?
• 2:50
  Alane: So nationally MMIP Awareness Day is May 5. We will observe MMIP Awareness Day on that same day. Two different events. One in the morning that's a little more centered toward employees, although I think the public is perfectly welcome to attend if they would like to, from 08:30 to 10:30. In the Friendship Park, amphitheater area, you can join and add a red handprint to the wall behind the amphitheater.
• 3:14
  Okay. Either in memory or in honor of a person that either has been lost or that is a survivor, or also just to join other community members and other employees in in recognizing the day acknowledging loved ones or people that you know.
• 3:28
  Kierstin: Okay. And then there's an evening event, I think, or I believe you mentioned.
• 3:32
  Alane: Yes. So the Light Up the Night event, I think this is either the third or the fourth. I think this is the third year that we've held this event. It's at the ALA Ball Field and at 6PM. Okay.
• 3:43
  There are some giveaways. Come get a T shirt. The shirts are always really nice. But, also, there's a walk right around dusk just as a time to gather and and remember. And then there are always speakers and resources available.
• 3:57
  So if you have someone or know someone who needs some assistance in this area, you can access those services there or at least get referrals. And then you'll hear from leaders in the community and resources that are available should you need them. And they usually have like an open mic toward the end so that families can share their experiences as well. Okay.
• 4:16
  Kierstin: Oh, gotcha. So this event and we also have this resolution that we're recognizing this for a whole month And you made statements as far as it being a very serious sort of And for listeners that may not be familiar, what do you mean as far as, I guess, that piece goes?
• 4:40
  Alane: Yeah, that's a good question. The MMIP movement started I mean, I don't know exactly when it started, but it really started to gain traction, I would say probably four or five years ago. And it really is just this mostly grassroots effort that people just started demanding attention to the fact that in indigenous communities, people, and especially women and girls, go missing at far higher rates than they do for other populations, that cases that happen in indigenous communities, especially rural indigenous communities, are more likely to have delayed investigational responses, less likely to be prosecuted by local, state, and federal agencies, that we don't actually know how many indigenous people are missing because there is no data to support it. And to me, that's just, I mean, this is 2026. How can we not know?
• 5:29
  But the fact is we don't. Right. Because the data just isn't there. And people started stringing all of these facts together and realizing, Hey, wait a second. This is not something that I'm alone in my community noticing.
• 5:41
  This is happening in indigenous communities across the nation. And so again, this really started with like a groundswell of just demands for attention.
• 5:49
  Kierstin: Right. And then, with respect to this being within indigenous communities, what makes MMIP different from other communities that are having these same types of things that occur.
• 6:05
  Alane: Yeah. Because people go missing everywhere. Right? So what is it? I think it's because there are a number of complicators that on their own would be enough to exacerbate the problem.
• 6:14
  But in indigenous communities, they all sort of combine. So what do I mean when I talk about that? I mean, things like I think a lot of people who are listening to this podcast already innately understand the jurisdictional complications that exist in in in Indian country. Is this a state case? Is this a tribal case?
• 6:29
  Is this a federal case? Do we even know? And then precursor cases like domestic violence and sexual assault often feed the MMIP epidemic, often feed MMIP cases. And those specific cases are innately complex and have their own, you know, like the DV cycle is its own bear, right? Its own issue to deal with.
• 6:49
  So the patterns of abuse that exist in the cases that feed the MMIP epidemic also are just more common in indigenous communities. And then, of course, we have to acknowledge historical trauma, generational trauma, systemic trauma of the criminal justice system itself, and then just resource disparities. I don't think that we struggle with that as much in Salt River because we are very fortunate that we have such an amazing wellspring of resources that communities can access and that we, as people who work here, can refer them to. Right. But when you're talking about some really rural communities, you know, a medical exam might be a four hour helicopter ride away.
• 7:28
  And so we have to acknowledge that communities who don't have the resources that Salt River have are far more at risk. You know, that many tribes are rural. Many tribes don't have what we have here. Right. And so all of that together, coupled with some other things that we haven't even talked about, just really puts indigenous communities more at risk, makes them more vulnerable.
• 7:49
  Kierstin: You know, and, obviously, this is still impacting the community as well. So even though we don't have those resource maybe issues, there are other issues that you mentioned as far as that makes it complicated. And so that sort of leads me to my next question. How does jurisdictional complexity create these real world barriers to these investigations?
• 8:15
  Alane: So question number one is who's investigating this case? So if a person goes missing or if a person is hurt, what agency is gonna respond? And in Salt River, we're again very lucky because the first person on scene is probably gonna be a Salt River police officer. But what if the person goes missing in Phoenix? What if the person goes missing in Scottsdale?
• 8:31
  What if the person goes missing in New Mexico? And so are we investigating the case here because it's a tribal community member who's missing? Or are we at the mercy of that other agency? So that's question number one. For agencies that are more geographically removed, there might be a delayed response because there just aren't enough police officers to get there until maybe the next day.
• 8:52
  Tribes might have limited authority to act immediately. And this is especially true in cases where the offender is non native, especially true in cases where the tribes haven't enacted valid jurisdiction, which we'll talk about in a second. And offenders are smart for better or for worse. And they know about all these gaps. They know about the jurisdictional maze.
• 9:12
  They know that they're far from services. They know that their victims might have challenges reporting it and they exploit that.
• 9:21
  Kierstin: Yeah. Okay. You also talked about historical trauma and some historical pieces. So what are some of those historical factors that you're referring to? How does that play into these stories or these cases?
• 9:37
  Right? I mean, or
• 9:38
  Alane: Yeah. I think most importantly, I think there's there's two ways you can look at it. First of all, if you talk about historical trauma, there are lots of scientific studies that show that historic and generational trauma is carried from one generation to the other. Regardless of if this most recent generation experienced boarding schools or experienced experience those things for themselves, they still feel the effects of it. Right.
• 10:00
  So that's a biological response, which I'm not an expert on.
• 10:04
  Kierstin: There is a book on that, right?
• 10:05
  Alane: There's lots of books on that. Yeah, absolutely. I am more aware, because I anecdotally have seen it, that for families that have been affected negatively by the system, by the government, either because of forced removals, because of boarding schools, because of negative responses when they've contacted the police department in the past, whatever that might be, there is a lack of trust in the system. Like means or authority, right? Yes.
• 10:32
  And so when something goes wrong, you know, my father was a police officer. And so I see police officers as safe people because of that. And so when something goes wrong for me, I'm not going to hesitate to call the police. But for someone who's had a completely different experience in their life with police officers or with the government or with an agency that is in charge, they're going to be fearful. They're not going to put as much trust automatically, innately in not only the police, but also maybe the prosecutor's office or maybe the federal government if they get involved.
• 11:04
  And so if you go into this and fail to acknowledge that, then essentially demanding that a whole population just trust. And that's just not it's just not practical. And so I think that you have to acknowledge that systemic trauma and intergenerational trauma are going to result in some behavioral changes that might not be understandable to you and me, might not be understandable to the officers who are responding to the scene, but they are natural results of trauma. Right. And that you have to at least face that.
• 11:41
  Mhmm. Otherwise, you can't move forward. And so this just results in more widespread distrust of law enforcement, more widespread distrust of government systems in general. And people are just ultimately hesitant to report those early cases where intervention might be more successful.
• 12:00
  Kierstin: Yeah. And we talk about this probably in other podcasts, but like delayed reporting, right? So, I mean, which also impacts investigations and If all those
• 12:11
  Alane: reports are delayed, there absolutely can and often is evidence that is missed that either disappears or gets washed away if it's physical evidence on someone's body. So, yeah, I mean, at at the end of the day, what you want is for someone to report immediately, you want them to report the second something happens. And that might be the impulse for someone who trusts police and trust that they'll do the right thing and trust that their case will get prosecuted and that this person will be taken out of their lives. Right. But that isn't most people.
• 12:40
  It's not most people anywhere, but it's certainly not most people in indigenous communities.
• 12:43
  Kierstin: Mhmm. Do you think that there's any role that could play into these things such as like house instability or substance use or the lack of access to services?
• 12:58
  Alane: I do. I think it builds on what I just talked about before in terms of offenders being smart. So if you don't have a place to live, you're automatically more vulnerable. It also means that if you have less access to the services that we've all talked about, less access to housing, less access to social supports, less access to social and behavioral services, less access to financial help. It also means that there are fewer off ramps to abuse.
• 13:27
  So I look at each one of those as like an exit on the highway. So if you don't have a place to live, you can go to the tribe and get some help, and that will be an off ramp to abuse. Even if you're in, an abusive situation, you can go to BHS, and they will help you either get out of that situation or develop a safety plan. That's another off ramp to abuse. Right.
• 13:48
  If your problem is that you can't leave the abusive situation because you don't have the finances to support it, you can come to the Family Advocacy Center or you can come to PD or you can come to HHS, and they will help you get a hotel room or get an apartment. And that's another off ramp to abuse. If you don't have any of these, if you've been isolated to the point where you don't know that you have choices or you actually are you know, far removed rurally that you don't have access to these source sources. That means you don't have an off ramp. And so it's less likely that you report because you have nowhere else to live.
• 14:21
  It's less likely that you report because you don't have anyone else to support you. It's less, less likely that you support because you don't have access to anything else. Offenders know this. They understand it. That's why they choose who Yeah.
• 14:33
  Victims are gonna
• 14:34
  Kierstin: Yeah. You were talking about those victims based on those set of circumstances or whatever. And you sort of were talking about individuals obviously at higher risk or whatever when they are in those situations. And then you also talked about some resources and so forth, but not everybody goes to those resources either. So even though within the community, can still have these resources, they're still available, but if you're not utilizing those resources, you can still become a victim in these cycles.
• 15:08
  Right?
• 15:08
  Alane: Absolutely. I mean and that's not any kind of a judgment. That's not a value judgment. It's not any kind of judgment at all. It just people respond to abuse in many different ways.
• 15:21
  None of them are right. None of them are wrong. People respond how they need to respond to survive. And I think if at the end of all of this, people only take one message, it's that no one in Salt River is ever going to look at you and say, why didn't you come to us earlier? Yeah.
• 15:37
  We're always going to say, what can we do now? So never feel like you're going to get judged or like you're going to be asked, why didn't you leave sooner? We're gonna always be here. Mhmm. This is a little bit of a tangent, I think it's an important one.
• 15:48
  We're always going to offer services. You're never going to be too far along in the process to get a response. Mhmm. I just hope that the podcast or people who share the podcast use it just as a reminder of all that there is available here and all the ways that multiple departments can be equipped to help you.
• 16:08
  Kierstin: Right. You had mentioned earlier that precursor you had said precursor to MMIP cases. So what are some of those precursor crimes?
• 16:19
  Alane: Yeah, that's a good question. So I'm gonna try not to go off on a soapbox moment, although this is my tap dance on a soapbox topic. If you ask me, why does the MMIP epidemic exist? It is because historically tribes have not been able to prosecute low level domestic violence and sexual assault cases that occur within reservations. That is changing, and we'll get to that in a second.
• 16:42
  But up until ten years ago, tribes had no jurisdiction to prosecute these cases if they were committed by non native offenders. And like, just for
• 16:52
  Kierstin: a moment, we have to recognize that that's awful.
• 16:55
  Alane: It's inexcusable, really, because what it means is that unless someone was killed or almost killed, their case didn't get prosecuted because the tribe couldn't prosecute it and the state couldn't prosecute it. And the federal government I think that US attorney's offices are well intentioned, but they are not well staffed, and they cannot prosecute every misdemeanor domestic violence that comes across their desk as much as they might want to. Yeah. The federal system is not built for community responsibility prosecution. Tribes are built for that.
• 17:26
  And tribes should have that ability as part of their sovereignty. And it wasn't until 2013 that Congress decided to acknowledge that sovereignty a little bit. And so if you ask me why we're here, that's why. Right. So when I talk about precursor crimes, I am primarily talking about domestic violence because of the way that domestic violence occurs and the way that it perpetuates over time.
• 17:48
  But I'm also talking about sexual assault. And that's because those are crimes involving power and control. And because generally speaking, this is not always true. But generally speaking, when you were talking about domestic violence and sexual assault, they are committed by a person that the victim knows. And so that is what is unique about those specific crimes as it relates to MMIP.
• 18:12
  Kierstin: Can you explain how this progression typically unfolds?
• 18:17
  Alane: Yeah. So there will be exceptions to everything, obviously. But we're not talking about a domestic violence relationship that begins with on the first date, someone being strangled. That's not how it usually happens. It usually begins with smaller signs of coercive control, like isolating the victim from their friends and family, isolating their finances, monitoring their movements.
• 18:43
  And then from there, it might escalate to, I referred earlier to low level domestic violence. Yeah. That does not mean it's not important. It just means maybe it's just a push or a shove or a slap. Gotcha.
• 18:56
  It doesn't leave an injury. Or if it does, it's easily concealable. The important part is that normally those low level offenses do not get reported. They're they're explained away or there's an apology. There's the classic domestic violence cycle that's followed by the honeymoon period where things get better.
• 19:13
  The love bombing. The love bombing. Exactly. So then what happened usually the first incident that's severe enough to get reported, where it leaves, a large bruise or it causes some kind of injury. Unless it's a broken bone, it's not probably going to be prosecuted by a US attorney's office.
• 19:33
  Kierstin: Okay.
• 19:33
  Alane: These are the cases that should be prosecuted by tribes Right. Regardless of who the offender is. Tribes are the best equipped to handle them. Tribes are the best tribes know the victims and the offenders best. These should be addressed by the community where they happen.
• 19:48
  And you can do things like deferred prosecution. You can offer services. You can get batterers intervention in the home Mhmm. If the victim wants to stay with the abuser. If they don't, you can get them into safe houses.
• 20:01
  You can get them into hotels, whatever. And you can break that cycle before it gets worse. Right. The problem, as I alluded to earlier, is that historically tribes have not been able to address these cases at that point. And so those early interventions weren't possible, which means that by the time it gets to the attention of something that would merit prosecution by a US attorney's office, you're talking about a strangulation or a broken bone or a firearm involved case, something with a very high lethality indicator.
• 20:32
  Kierstin: Right. Because it started off small and then it goes into progressively worse, right?
• 20:38
  Alane: Right. And it's like anything. I mean, something isn't addressed, then what the offender learns is I can do this and more, they didn't report me last time, or I can do this and more because she reported it, but they didn't prosecute me. So the offender's learning the whole time the abuser's learning. So by the time it gets to the point where it's very clear that this is a dangerous, volatile, deadly situation, either the victim is dead or severely injured.
• 21:03
  Right. And all of this together just increases the likelihood that eventually the abuser will kill the victim. But also it could it just should have never gotten to that point without being addressed somehow. Because no matter what jurisdiction you're talking about, almost every jurisdiction has protections in place where no matter how quote unquote small the DV offense is, if you commit enough of them over time, it becomes a felony all on its own. Right.
• 21:28
  And so the punishments, the consequences can grow with the history of the case. But because tribes couldn't prosecute these early offenses, there's no history. So someone who has been offending for years, theoretically would be seen as a first time offender because the tribe was powerless to do anything about it.
• 21:49
  Kierstin: And when you say that the tribe is powerless to do anything about it, I think you're referring because the non native
• 21:55
  Alane: aspect- Referring primarily to non native offenders in that scenario, yes.
• 21:59
  Kierstin: Okay. Yes. I just wanna be clear because I was making sure I wasn't guessing.
• 22:02
  Alane: No, you're absolutely right.
• 22:05
  Kierstin: Are there any warning signs that could prevent some of these escalations?
• 22:11
  Alane: Yeah. So I think if you are a person on the outside watching your friends and family, I think that what you'll look for are those signs of coercive control. You'll look for limiting someone's access to their own finances, limiting someone's access to birth control, limiting someone's ability to go out with their friends or to see their family on Sundays at Sunday dinner or whatever the case is. Just isolation, financial abuse, that type of thing. And if you see it, then, you know, you can certainly refer them to to services.
• 22:40
  But if you yourself are going through this, I think just being aware of what that cycle looks like can help you determine, okay, maybe this isn't the relationship for me. This is exhibiting some of those signs that I heard about that I should be aware of. And since we're in Salt River, I can tell you there are so many services that you can access. You can come to meet me at my office, and I can help you get involved in those. You can go to the Family Advocacy Center to an extent.
• 23:04
  And then you can also obviously access the many services through through HHS. And there are groups. There are individual therapy. There's all kinds of all kinds of help you can get to sort of either turn that relationship into a healthier one because their service is not just for victims, but also offenders. Or you can get the help that you need to get away from it.
• 23:24
  Kierstin: Yeah. I know I'm this next question that I have for you might be sort of changing gears, but I I feel like it sort of fits in this whole discussion. And I know I've heard it recently too. Can you talk about the Turquoise Alert System? I don't I don't even know how it works.
• 23:41
  I don't know where it falls short. I don't I don't really know anything. So
• 23:45
  Alane: The Turquoise Alert System was passed in Arizona last summer. I can't remember the exact date, but I believe it was in June. And it is meant to be an alert system akin to the AMBER Alert System for children, but for adults. Originally, when it was developed, it was specifically for indigenous communities. Yeah.
• 24:06
  But with the legislative process, it eventually through changes in language and that sort of thing, eventually, it it came to apply to everyone, just indigenous people.
• 24:17
  Kierstin: No, that's something I didn't know. I didn't realize. Because I know there's the silver silver alert, but then it's yeah.
• 24:22
  Alane: For people over the age of, I think, 60 or 65. Okay. Yeah. So this is for that in between group. It's not a silver alert, but it's not an amber alert.
• 24:30
  It's for the people in in between who are adults.
• 24:34
  Kierstin: And it doesn't matter what your background is.
• 24:36
  Alane: Doesn't matter what your background is. The issue is though that it does have some very specific criteria that must be met before someone qualifies for a turquoise alert. And essentially what it means is that it must be an adult. They must be missing under suspicious or high risk circumstances. And the police must have some type of actionable information.
• 24:57
  Okay. Regarding either their at risk status or that it's potentially a kidnapping or that it's, you know, that it's something dangerous.
• 25:05
  Kierstin: That a crime has been committed? Maybe not
• 25:07
  Alane: that a crime has been committed, but that the person is in some kind of danger.
• 25:10
  Kierstin: Okay.
• 25:11
  Alane: So that means that, you know, as an adult, Kirsten, both of us are adults. We can quit our job and walk away and not have communication with anyone that we don't wanna have communication with. And that's not a crime. Right. And we're not missing.
• 25:23
  We're where we wanna be. Right. And so it's much more complicated when you report a person missing and then the police don't have information saying that they're high risk. You know, if they have a history of suicidality or if they have a history of abuse, or if there's some reason to know like-
• 25:39
  Kierstin: Or mental health issues.
• 25:40
  Alane: Mental health issues, maybe. Yeah. Although that's more of a mental health hold situation, but, know, maybe police are sometimes aware that, oh my gosh, I can't find her. And the last time I saw her, she was in a car with her ex and he and she was like trying to escape and he wouldn't let her. Mean, that will be an example of something that would merit a turquoise alert.
• 25:57
  Okay. But it's complicated because if you don't have that specific information is, you know, is a turquoise alert going to be allowed?
• 26:06
  Kierstin: Mean, I'm just thinking of like so many scenarios, right? Where you'd call your family and it was like, hey, I'm gonna go out with someone. And then a couple of days pass by and you haven't seen them, then you're like, wait, what's going on? Right? And that doesn't seem like enough information.
• 26:20
  Right? Unless I had new other facts.
• 26:23
  Alane: You're right. That wouldn't be enough information to have a turquoise alert issued. And so it is turquoise alerts. I think the intention is good. I think they're valuable, but it is specifically for a very narrow set of circumstances where the police have kind of a lot of information about this person's risk and who might be involved.
• 26:43
  And it's not just for people who we don't know where they are. Right. There's more than one criteria that have to be met. So I think, you know, in terms of utility, it's great. And certainly I think just having the turquoise alert in existence does give more awareness to the MMIP epidemic.
• 27:01
  So that's great. Yeah. But the strict criteria disappearances that gets labeled as voluntary. I mean, are definitely shortfalls.
• 27:09
  Kierstin: Yeah. I mean, I know we probably need to move on this, but I'm just thinking like kids are automatically at risk because they're kids. Individuals that are over a certain age are more at risk because of their age and those things. So this has got to be super hard as far as meeting this criteria. But anyways, I'm saying all this probably sitting
• 27:29
  Alane: It's on my very specific. It absolutely is.
• 27:33
  Kierstin: So yeah, I mean, like I said, probably in the sense of wrapping us up, if you could fix one issue tomorrow that you think would have the greatest impact of MMIP, what would it be?
• 27:48
  Alane: I would want a full legislative fix to the Oliphant case, which is the case that initially I'm not gonna tell you about Oliphant.
• 27:57
  Kierstin: Know I said that. I'm like, oh, no.
• 27:58
  Alane: When we talk about why is tribal sovereignty ignored in terms of universal criminal jurisdiction over offenders who offending in Indian country, Olavant's the case. And in order to override case law, what you need is legislation. You need a law. Yeah. And so I think, you know, what is the one fix that I would advocate for that would have the most immediate impact?
• 28:23
  That would be it. Fix it. Gotcha. Like pass a law, not just VAWA that gives back little pieces of tribal criminal jurisdiction, but one big legislative fix, restore tribal sovereignty. Now that doesn't fix the problems of, you know, prosecuting people is expensive.
• 28:40
  So it doesn't fix the financial problems. It doesn't fix the the financial, complications, but it does at least erase the jurisdictional complication. Gotcha.
• 28:53
  Kierstin: I know we've been talking about so much today, and I appreciate you spending time and talking all through all these pieces. I feel like there's lots of things I still don't know and maybe don't understand. And I know that there'll probably be future episodes that we talk about many of these topics specifically and individually. But thank you for sharing all your knowledge with our listeners today.
• 29:19
  Alane: Thanks. And thanks for listening, everyone. I know it's a tough topic and one that's not easy to to hear about. Also just wanna reiterate the event on Tuesday, the fifth. If you have family members who you've lost, please, you're encouraged to bring photos, bring banners, bring your posters, bring whatever you want to share.
• 29:41
  That's highly encouraged. May 5. May 5, 06:00 at, ALA at the Ballfield.
• 29:47
  Kierstin: Thank you for joining us today at Ask and Answered. If you have any questions, we would love for you to email any of those legal questions. Our email address is askedandansweredsrpmic nsn dot gov. Again, this is Kirsty Anderson and my cohost, Elaine Breland, and we appreciate your listening today.
• 30:11
  Alane: Bye y'all.