Latest / Reborn w/ Antonio Boutros / Cyrus Keck: Real Estate, Resilience & Redefining Success | Reborn Podcast EP.03

Transcript

Cyrus Keck: Real Estate, Resilience & Redefining Success | Reborn Podcast EP.03 · Reborn w/ Antonio Boutros

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: If you have an unhealthy relationship with your father and people say, Well, God is your father, you can't embrace that.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_05: So until you go into those wounds within yourself and better understand yourself and work on that, that opens up space and the spirit will help you with that, obviously.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_05: If you just shut that part of yourself down, you cannot experience that aspect of God's character.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Reborn Podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Tony Beatros.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Today I sat down with a newer friend, Cyrus Keck, who is a brilliant mind, a great business strategist, and someone who is deeply rooted in Christ.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode, we discuss remaining grounded in the Lord and leading from a place of overflow, as well as removing strongholds that keep us from loving God and others.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: With that said, let's get right to it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Cyrus, thank you for being here.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Tony.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Cyrus, I'm curious.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: You were mentioning off camera before we started that you grew up in northern Indiana.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: How has that background of growing up in a small town to now being in a million population city transformed how you approach leadership and what you do on a day-to-day basis?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_05: That's a really good question, Tony.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_05: Um so I grew up uh older brother, younger brother.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_05: We live in the countryside.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_05: As I mentioned earlier, Tia, my neighbors across the street were Amish.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_05: Uh actually, my grandparents live next door, so got to spend a lot of time with them.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_05: So we were we were outside quite a bit.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um, got to be really creative, and boredom actually was pretty forefront for us.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, you you get bored, and mom and dad would just say, hey, go outside and figure it out, kind of thing.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_05: So you really had to lean into being creative and finding stuff to do with your siblings.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and because we were in the countryside, you also couldn't just go see your neighbors or anything like that.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_05: So you really had to be creative.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_05: And as I've transitioned into city life, part of me certainly misses the countryside.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_05: My wife also grew up in the countryside.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_05: So we'd eventually like land.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but from a leadership perspective, I think it has taught me to embrace some of that boredom.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_05: You know, don't oversolve things for people, encourage people to be more creative, give people space.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: I I think some of the those themes that you would experience growing up in the countryside certainly have shown up in the way that I like to lead people and not be too hyper-focused on who's doing what and when and really give them the latitude and the space to to be who they need to be.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's huge.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: The outdoors being in God's creation, the creator's creation.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's difficult.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: It would be impossible to be a great creator without recognizing and embracing his creation.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that actually breaks my heart nowadays is that the kids are growing up on iPads and phones, social media instead of being outdoors, climbing trees.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh AJ, my podcast manager, knows that like before pretty much before every episode, and at least like two or three times a week, I like to go out in nature and just be adventurous.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_05: Well, there's there's quite a few studies that have been done now that if if you're feeling stressed, one of the best things you can do is go take a walk in the woods.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_05: And there's other studies where if you've got dirt underneath your fingernails and stuff, it's actually good for your body.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if you ever heard the phrase grounding.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_05: People talk about going barefoot.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's like that is an important part of it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_05: And to your point about creativity, not only is God the creator, but in the and I I've been going deep on Bema podcast and uh Bible story, so the Bible project.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um, they're kind of nerdy in some ways, but they're really good.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_05: But one of the things I've learned all the way back in the creation narrative, where when God creates things, you know, the phrase that gets translated a lot is we we say perfect, you know, God's creation is perfect, but a better word choice is it's complete.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_05: And what that means is he finished it, but there's so much more that we can do.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_05: So he's inviting us to join him with the creation that is ready for us to create in.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_05: So it's not just he is the creator and we're supposed to enjoy it, we are supposed to be co-creators with him.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that started with Adam.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely did.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Naming the animals.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing as a young man myself is that I have to remember, I get to remember that the Lord gave man work before he gave man Eve a wife.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I've often said that it's the Bible is really the only business book you ever need.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I read business books, but it's like it's all it's all there.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: It just isn't a matter of like reading other books, is like how it's packaged.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I just find that really, really interesting.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: How a book that was written thousands of years ago is the truth, is wisdom, right?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Versus a this is what James calls a secular, unspiritual, demonic wisdom of today's day and age.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_05: So well, there's a lot in in Proverbs that talks about things like you know, it's it's better to be a poor man than be a rich man who got it in in ill-gotten ways.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there there's so many truths in there that the things that the world values does run very contrary to what God says matters.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm I'm sure you've heard the phrase the upside-down kingdom.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, Jesus completely embodied that.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_05: The idea that be attitudes.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely right.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, just that that concept that the things that we as people desire, almost all of that really comes from uh not having abundance mentality.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_05: It is that there's not enough in the world, so I need to get what's mine.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_05: But man, if you can lean into trusting God, who is the creator and provider, and just say, it's going to be okay, you will provide for me.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_05: That completely inverts the entire equation for what our world pursues.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Did you grow up with the same?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you've experienced stuff that's strengthened your faith, but did you experience did you grow up experiencing the faith, or was it uh borrowed faith maybe from your parents?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_05: Or I would say growing up, we were more of a Sunday Christian kind of family.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: So we went to church.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_05: I think mom was a lot more serious about her faith than dad was.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, about halfway through my junior year, uh, and I really am grateful to the Lord for this.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_05: You make you're you're in high school, you make dumb choices.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_05: So make a couple silly choices, and you're like, man, if I continue down this path, I can plot out where I'm going, and I don't like that trajectory I'm I'm on.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_05: So I got involved in the local youth group there, uh, and then I ended up going to Taylor University, where that really helped shape my life.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_05: And then I moved to Indianapolis, got involved at Grace, where I go to church at 146 in Hazeldell, uh, moved to South Florida a couple years and moved back.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_05: But that journey going from, I think it was Augustine that said, What am I to myself but a guide to my own downfall?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_05: Um, that concept has really resonated with me.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I learned that, quote, probably about four years ago now.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_05: And I think God blessed me with that insight that man, if if you run on your own, you're gonna run right off the cliff.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_05: So to answer your question, I don't think I grew up with that, but I think that has been formed in me over the years.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the biggest questions that it can be a struggle to answer for many Christian in general, but also specifically Christian leaders, is where do you draw the line between grace and mercy and truth?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking the truth rooted in love while also having grace and mercy.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I I can add my thoughts to probably 2,000 years of much smarter people than me thinking about it.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_05: But uh as I thought about this and listening back to the Bema podcast, they they had this talk about kind of this specific topic.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_05: You look at first John in particular, and really the gospel of John, and over and over and over, Jesus hits on love.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_05: And you look at the things he said that mattered to him, where the sheep and the goats parable, where he says, Look, if if you did not care for me when I was hungry, naked, if you didn't do these things for me, then you know, I'm gonna you're gonna be on the wrong side of me.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_05: And they're like, Well, when did we see you?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_05: And he's like, Well, these are the people that just needed things.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_05: And very rarely did Jesus hammer people over the head with truth.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_05: The people he did do it with are the religious leaders who were supposed to quote unquote know better.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_05: So I think to answer your question more specifically, if you're not leading with love, if you're not leading with this is a human being created in the image of God, and I want to see them reconciled with God, if that's not your context, no truth is gonna land in any meaningful way.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_05: So I think grace and love have to be the leading things, and truth can only land after that.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_05: So if someone doesn't feel loved, seen, maybe respected, depending on how you want to use those words, but if they don't know that they're loved and they're meaningful to you, you're gonna have a really hard time truthing them to anything.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about what you mean by how you look at the word respect.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_05: So respect can mean a lot of different things.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: There can be that rigid um you will respect me because I'm in charge type of approach.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I think that's a very unhealthy view of it.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_05: I think a healthy view of it would be again, you're you're a human being, you have inherent dignity, I respect that dignity, I respect your agency.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_05: That doesn't mean I necessarily approve of everything, obviously, but I think respect just recognizes the inherent worth in an in an individual.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Respecting them as a human.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: We both came from the dirt.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_05: We'll both return to the dirt.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_05: You're both created in God's image.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_05: You bring something unique to the world that I don't bring to the world.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_05: And so instead of saying, Well, why the heck does Tony do it this way?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_05: instead recognize that might rub me the wrong way, but that might be a me problem.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_05: It also might just be we're incompatible in some ways, and I can still appreciate the differences.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Before we started recording, you mentioned healing rifts.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: What role has that played in your life, and what's the process that you've undertaken for healing riffs in your own life?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, great, great question.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_05: So, are you familiar with the Enigram?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_05: Have you drank any of the Enigram Kool-Aid?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds familiar.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, it it's fine.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_05: Um, the the short version of it is it's and people would probably be unhappy with my distillation, but I I joke that it's like a Christian personality assessment.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_05: So my assessment I land on was called an eight that could be the challenger, the controller.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_05: Um, my wife is a nine, which is the peacemaker.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_05: And when I was younger, uh, I would say that one of my driving urges was I need to be right.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_05: And thankfully the Lord blessed me with a very small tweak to that to I need to get to right.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_05: And so I've learned instead of saying, no, Tony, I'm right, it might be, hey, you you think we should go left, I think we should go right.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_05: There's a truth in here.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_05: Can we work together to find it?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_05: Because maybe it's we should go straight, maybe you're right, maybe I'm right, but it's not about being right.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's about how do you get to quote unquote right.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_05: And back to my wife being a nine, uh, she's really helped.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_05: I joke that I'm a I can be a bull in a China shop, but at least I'm aware of it.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_05: So she's helped round off some of those hard edges.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_05: So my inherent personality is actually I would probably create rifts if I'm not careful because I can just storm through, we'll get a lot of things accomplished, but I'm gonna leave a lot of wounds behind me.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_05: So she's been a real blessing and that I can help recognize proactively, man, I got to be cautious because I will steamroll people.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_05: And I think even just back to that respect piece, if people feel respected and seen, that in and of itself can start to create bridges to heal those rifts where people feel comfortable opening up and feel comfortable sharing things with you.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and in turn, hopefully, if they experience authenticity and respect for who they are, they in turn will bring that to other people around them.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: What was that change like?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have any life or anchor verses that really helped that shift?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know that I have a specific verse for it, but I remember so my dad is probably also an Enneagramm mate, but probably more on the unhealthy side, to be fair.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so growing up, we had a lot of headbutting, and I know I remember he would say often, you know, you just need to be right.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_05: And he he actually wasn't wrong about that.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: So I I think at some point, I I couldn't even point to a specific aha moment, but I think just over time, gradually, probably through late high school, early college, I did start recognizing that pattern in me.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_05: And when I started changing that approach to making it more collaborative instead of combative, that I began to see people's responses were much better.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_05: Hopefully from the Lord, not from me.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you were mentioning again off camera, that about a year ago you were looking to start or you were looking to buy a business, excuse me.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um that didn't happen.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord didn't open those doors.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_05: What do you think he may have been protecting you from?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's a great question.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_05: So one of the things that you had mentioned earlier is uh as we talked about the ruthless elimination of hurry, is you're trying not to speed anywhere.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_05: And I like to go places quickly, and the way you were that was really good because sometimes I get behind some of going slow and I've don't always do it well, but I do try to remind myself, what does God protect me from?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there could be an accident up ahead.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_05: So to answer your question, I I don't know.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um, maybe it was I wasn't ready for that level of autonomy.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_05: I maybe I was not ready for that level of responsibility.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, it could even be I just need to be in the place I'm in now for the good of somebody else, too.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_05: So I that's one of those.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_05: I you you can look at it one of two ways, you know.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_05: Why God, why didn't you give me what I thought?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_05: And I really think he called me down that path for a period of time.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_05: I think I had a lot of growth.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_05: It was a a season of refreshing for me.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it was a sweet time with my family, could be with it, with the boys, my wife more.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, so it might have just been a blessing season, and then it was time to get back to work too.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_05: So, but I do think people can accuse God of, you know, this is unfair, it's not what I wanted, fill in the blank.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_05: But I think it's important to reflect on those times and say, what to your point, either what were you protecting me from, how were you blessing me, how was I growing?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_05: Because we looking back as somebody is the only way we can learn stuff.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: As someone who likes to hurry places, I found in my own life until recently, and still, if you don't pick up the cross on a daily basis, it's still a challenge that it's hard to receive that rest.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Was there identity transformation through that time of blessing that you had with your family before starting this new position?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_05: I I think out of the gate, there was a rush to how do I find this new business?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_05: How do I do this next phase?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and as that took longer and longer, it I I actually was laughing about this with my wife, my wife, and some other people before I started the job, where I kind of felt like I was retired in some ways, in that I would get to the end of the day and I'm like, man, I'm tired.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_05: I had a busy day.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_05: I I went to the gym and I had one phone call, and it was a lot today.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_05: And I I think recognizing that capacity can expand and shrink in the different seasons that you're in.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_05: So God gives me the energy that I need for the season that I'm in, which is a way to take the burden off of me to have the energy for the thing at that moment.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_05: So, identity-wise, though, um I don't know that I've ever felt like I have to be a business owner, I have to be a leader.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_05: I've I've found that I typically do end up in leadership roles, but a lot of it comes down to I'm just seems to be in the right place at the right time.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I attribute that to God putting me where I need to be.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_05: Do you enjoy leadership?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_05: I do.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I really do.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's one of the things that I I get a lot of value out of.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_05: I'm I can certainly do the work, be hands-on, and I get satisfaction out of that.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_05: But one of the philosophies I've had for years now is like if someone comes and works for me, I'd love for them to stay forever, obviously, but I want them to leave better than they came in.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_05: And seeing that growth and that transformation, that person, seeing someone achieve something they didn't think they could before is is really rewarding to me.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're talking about expanding the Lord expanding your energy and condensing it in different seasons.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking with a mentor of mine who you might know, Jamar Wright.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know Jamar.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to him by the way.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Huh?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I said, hi Jamar.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um he came on, he was one of the first guests ever to come on a couple years ago.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Him and his him and Leslie will probably come on uh sometime soon within the next couple months.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I was talking with him a couple weeks ago, and he was talking about how your energy comes from the lore, which is like obvious.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: But then like I I don't know what what it was, but somehow it just like really sank in, and I'm like, well yeah, because I I think I had switch within the last three to six months, so very recently, from relying on performative energy, like my own flesh, to being energized by the Holy Spirit, yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I felt like I don't have any energy, but it's like, yeah, because you died to your flesh, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And now Christ Jesus lives through you.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: So your fleshly energy is at an all-time low.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if you really lean into the Holy Spirit in you, then your actual energy is not only night and day difference better, yep, but it's the best you've ever had, and you don't have to like work for it, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_05: You don't have to perform.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_05: And I I will say, uh maybe as a cautionary tale, I agree with everything you just said for what it's worth, but as a cautionary tale, too, sometimes there are seasons that are hard and you got to just buckle down and do it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't want people to hear if you're not energized, maybe you're in the wrong spot, it might just be a season that is a slog.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you think about the the Israelites in the the wilderness, and yeah, they were there because they foolishly chose not to go into the promised land, but that was a long slog, you know, they just had to stick with it, stick with it.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and even you know, David waiting to become king, you know, Saul kept trying to kill him.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_05: And if you look at the Psalms, he's like, God, where the heck are you?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: What is going on?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so I I I want to be cognizant too that there are hard times and you may not always feel energized.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_05: So that doesn't mean you're in the wrong spot.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_05: Just be aware that your energy should come from the Lord.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_05: But if you're not feeling energized, I think there's a lot of heart checking to do.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_05: You might be in the wrong place, but you also may not be.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: That actually leads what what are your beliefs around when the Lord does not forsake you, he'll never forsake you, but he does he goes quiet.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you are in your secret place, and like you feel like you're there, like just talking to the ceiling.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't sense his presence.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: What do you believe the Lord is showing us in those seasons?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think a couple of different things.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I Caveat that though it can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't mean this to be an exhaustive definitive list by any means.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but I think it is an opportunity to show your dedication to him.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_05: So are you are you still staying in the word?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it's an opportunity to fellowship with other like-minded believers.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, if you're not feeling anything from the Lord, but you're in his word, you know, are you talking to other people?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_05: You know, do you say, Hey Cyrus, can I come?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: Can we just talk about some stuff?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I'm not getting a word from the Lord.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe, maybe you are.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think it's also a chance to look at your life and say, Am I in am I in the right places?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_05: You know, is it job-wise?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: Is there is there a sin in my life?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and there may not be.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_05: I think some people instantly jump to, well, how are you sinning?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_05: And there might be.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's important to look into that for sure.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but it may be as simple as this is just a season of testing for you, and you need to just demonstrate faithfulness in it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_05: So, yeah, to summarize that, I think it's be in the word, continue to pray, but also be with like-minded people and just tell them, hey, I'm not hearing from the Lord right now.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_05: Do you have a word from the Lord for me?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: How do you discern human imperfection when you're not hearing from the Lord, when you're seeking others who are genuinely wise counsel, they have a great walk with the Lord, but they're still human.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um I'll come back to the human imperfection thing in a moment.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_05: But a a caution I think a lot of Christians have, so this actually bothered me when I was a senior in college, where a lot of my friends were waiting on the Lord to give them guidance.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_05: So they literally weren't doing anything.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that you can get in this trap of I won't move until God very clearly tells me what to do.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_05: And he's blessed us with competent, capable minds.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: He's blessed us with gifts and abilities, agency.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_05: Like he wants us to do things on our own too.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, don't go like go out and shoot a bunch of people, kind of nonsense.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_05: But like, you know, with what you're doing, you've launching a business, you're trying something.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_05: Well, maybe that's not where you're going to be in two years from now.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_05: But I don't think at the end of life, God's gonna be like, dude, you could totally mess that up.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_05: I would rather at the end of life, God looks at me, pass me in the head, and says, You're kind of an idiot.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_05: You got a lot wrong, but you really did try with good intentions.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_05: I'd much rather hear that than you just sat there.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_05: So I think of the parable of the talents there.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I don't want to bury the talents.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_05: So I bring all that up because back to human imperfection.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, people have their own biases, their own agendas that are inherent.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_05: You know, if you ask me my opinion, you're gonna get my natural lens towards let's move towards progress, let's let's move quickly, let's iterate.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but if you talk to someone who's probably a lot more reflective and and thoughtful than I am, they may have, well, you need to sit down and do a much longer roadmap, and and both are true in different seasons.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_05: So I think the way you hedge against that from a human perspective is get several different wise counsel people speaking into it.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but then ultimately you want to balance that against the scripture because, you know, uh a great anecdotal story that I've heard some people use or an example rather is well, I'm on I'm unhappy with my wife, and I think God wants me to divorce her.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_05: I'm pretty sure the Bible doesn't agree with that.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_05: So even if everybody around you is giving you that counsel.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_05: Now, I'm not talking about things like unfaithfulness or abuse or anything like that.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_05: Just, yeah, I'm not happy today and I want to move on.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you may not, humans might agree with that, but it's got to be balanced with scripture to support it.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the episode that you mentioned listening to with Alex.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was on camera.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he talks about the three I can't remember exactly the fr the the wording he used, but the three pillars.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the word of God, right, the Holy Spirit, how the Lord is speaking to you personally, privately, yep, and wise counsel.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: To me, I definitely agree with all those, but I think that the word of God has to be the center.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's paramount, yeah.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_05: Because if you think the spirit is telling you something, but it's contrary to scripture, that's probably not the spirit.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_05: And the same thing with the human word as well.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I may add a I'd say it's definitely not the spirit if it doesn't, if it's oh doesn't align with the word.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_05: That was the intention I was making.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_05: You think it's the spirit, but if it's not aligned, it's clearly not the spirit.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I think one thing that's important to factor, I don't know if I'd call it a pillar or not to add to it to Alex's pillars, but experience is important.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_05: So you've once you have life experience, you know things kind of inherently, you can reflect back on it.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_05: So that's not just experience to share with other people, but even your own personal experiences.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_05: So don't discount your own wisdom and intuition because the Lord has blessed you with that.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_05: Again, you need to balance that with scripture, with other people tell you.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_05: But I think oftentimes, back to my point about college, I think people get paralyzed because they're waiting for God to tell them exactly what to do.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_05: And all the way back to the creative piece we talked about at the beginning, that's not being creative.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_05: Go and do something.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we are human beings first, not doers.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: I recognize that, but we are also meant to be creators, which is a action.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've been really leaning into lately.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: We are called to be creators.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: But really, as I reflect on what I've created, the Lord's been the one that's like giving me the ideas.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just go out and even though I'm I'm like in the context of like the business, I'm very visionary.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not like the integrator.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah but really I am the integrator because the Lord is the visionary giving me the vision.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: So like we are called to be creators, but out of overflow of hearing and being with the Lord, right, versus like, how can I go make a ton of money or something?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_05: So well, and to that point, um are you familiar with the Hebrew word ruach?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_05: So it it's translated spirit, so the spirit of God, ruach.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_05: How do you spell it?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_05: Uh R-U-A-C-H, I think.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know the Hebrew letters for that.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but the idea behind that it can also be translated to wind.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_05: So it is action, it is life.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_05: So when it says God breathed into man, that's ruach.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_05: So we have God's ruach in us.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_05: So even our creativity, our energy back to that, all of that doesn't happen without God.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: So it's this weird dual thing where we do have our own agency, our own energy, our own creativity, and we should utilize that, but all of that is underpinned by God's spirit itself animating us.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And half the battle is also I'm sure there's some some some sort of Hebrew word for this, I don't know what it is, but uh surrendering all, like absolutely having open hands to not only receive the ruach of the Lord, but to give him everything.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you think like this cup, if I want to fill this cup, but I have all this, that's my human flesh, my worries, whatever, my fear.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, let me put some Holy Spirit in there.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: It might be full, but it's gonna be full, you know, 10% with Holy Spirit and 90% with me.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd argue that 90%, not in this context, 90%.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, it's just as important, if not, I want to, I don't know how I would say more important, but it's just as important to pour out right everything.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_05: Well, what you're really hitting on is a, and I don't have the answer to this.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_05: If I did, I'd write a book and you know, retire and be the world's smartest man.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but how do you be fully, completely who God made you to be, while also be fully, completely filled with the Holy Spirit?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_05: You should be both, because who God has made you to be is a wonderful, beautiful, amazing thing, but you also need to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I don't know the calculus on how you make that happen, but you're right.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_05: You empty yourself, but you're also you're emptying yourself of like your selfish ambitions, but you shouldn't empty yourself of you, if that distinction makes sense.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, be yourself, but if you're filled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will teach you who you truly are and how to be that true self, not the self that is tied to uh my pastor teaches on four doors to like evil, to the demonic absolutely um anger is one of them, sexual sin, uh the occult, um, like really the occult slash just like any any religion outside of Jesus.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it could be like performative Christianity, yep.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then bitterness.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, if that's where I'm getting my my true self from, that's not my true self.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say pour out everything, be filled by the spirit, and then let the spirit teach you, okay, who actually am I?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_05: And you you certainly need exactly right, you need to be cautious too, because when you start dabbling in this true self and everything, you can get into this weird, like new agey stuff, and that's not the direction I go.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_05: Are you familiar with an author named Jamie Winship?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so his idea of God gives us our name, like our identity is deeply rooted in God, it's it's fully rooted in God, our true identity.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_05: So, and I think it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I think, might get it wrong, but he his basic thesis, and I can't remember the book, even that I'm embarrassed I don't remember it, but his basic thesis was the more you know yourself, the more you can love God and know God, and the more you know God, the more in turn you can know yourself, which is actually kind of alluded to what you were talking about, because we are created in his image, and the more we know our Father, the more he can speak to us who we are, and then we are more comfortable with ourselves, we can reveal an empty more of ourselves to him to get more of him, and it's this I don't want to say vicious cycle, it's a very positive cycle.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but again, fully rooted in the spirit, the scripture, not the weird new agey, you know, yeah, feel yourself out and that kind of stuff.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that you need to maybe this is something that the Lord needs to work on with me.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that you necessarily need to know more about yourself to know more about God.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think knowing more about God definitely does the reverse, teaches you more about yourself, and from there you can grow to be more like again, your true spirit-filled self, right?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Holy spirit-filled to be specific.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's no um no confusion.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um but yeah.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_05: Well, let me let me give you maybe an anecdotal story with it, not a story, but an a thought for that.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_05: So if you there are many people who wrestle with God as a father because they had an unhealthy father relationship.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_05: And with any kind of trauma, whether it's a micro trauma, you know, little T trauma, big T trauma, but if you have an unhealthy relationship with your father and people say, Well, God is your father, you can't embrace that.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_05: So until you go into that, those wounds within yourself and better understand yourself and work on that, that opens up space, and the spirit will help you with that, obviously.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_05: But if you just shut that part of yourself down, you cannot experience that aspect of God's character.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_05: So you can intellectually know God's the father, but I'm thinking of like the Hebrew concept of no, like that intimate experiential no.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_05: So that that is more what I'm referring to than just, yeah, you can absolutely know all the facts about God.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I would argue you can't, but you understand my point.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_05: You can factually know things about God, but to experience God, you will inevitably, because of just how we as humans grow, we have wounds.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_05: Those wounds, unless you deal with them and step into them and learn about them, those will become blockers to really experience God.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't expecting to share this today, but I feel I'm feeling prompted.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um about two or three months ago, I was at my church.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: My church does like a Thursday, um, Thursday evening worship service every week.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was a Thursday service, it might have been Sunday.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was Thursday.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like lying on the ground.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm if you see me at church often you'll for sure see see tears.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I was just like lying on the ground, like crying.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I started hearing the Lord call me Antonio, okay, which is my birth name that I'd gone by pretty much my whole childhood, like up to like 2022.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I believed that the Lord had changed my name to Tony, like Abram to Abraham, sure, or um Simon to Peter.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And but the Lord revealed to me, he called me, he called me Antonio that day, and I was like, why are you calling me that?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's not my name.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then he took me through this period of healing, or it's like he revealed to me that I think I had been little smaller and smaller over time, but to some extent I had held myself in my past self in condemnation instead of with grace and mercy and love.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And really I had built an alt and uh an idol, um, an altar to bail with performance and tying my identity with what I was doing, right?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Not who the Lord calls me.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so I've been going by Antonio more often lately, been getting into that.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then two weeks ago, my church does um baptisms, but really like they encourage like even if you've been baptized, like get in the water, like not they don't like tell you, like they don't you know, shove people in.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you feel prompted um to just meet Jesus in the water, um, then do it.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I got in the water like two weeks ago.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was at church till like 4 p.m.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: because there was a big line of people that wanted to get in.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or like a small church, like 30 to 50 people on any given week.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I mean, people were having their moment with the Lord, so it was like 10, 20 minutes per person.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's great.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: It took a while.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so I got in a couple weeks ago and just felt that like identity transformation of like it it really, I think it had been, like I said, like I think at the at this point, like right now, it's been probably two and a half months.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I don't think it like really I had been introducing myself as Antonio and everything, but it hadn't really sunk in for me until like I actually got in the water and yeah, like received that.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_05: That's cool.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but see, I would argue that's one of those elements where God revealed more of who you are, yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_05: And now there's more space for you to interact with God to better understand him as a father.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_05: And again, experientially, not intellectually.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I've even realized, like, even around a podcast or around my real estate company, or around there's a there's another company that the Lord's put in my heart to start um within a near future.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: I always well, near future is what I always have in my mind.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, maybe maybe it's 10 years from now.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_05: Quote unquote soon.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like even with that, I just I'd have realized like genuinely I have open hands.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like if the Lord called me to shut down the business tomorrow, right?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, it's his.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_05: And it'd be foolish to not do what he says.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Where I used to have six months ago, like so much worry and anxiety and control around it because it was my identity.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I also I wrestled with like can the Lord redeem what he like I was a believer when I started the company, but it was really just out of performance.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: So like, can he redeem that?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe that he's made it clear to me that he has, and it's actually a very good thing now.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, I that's cool.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_05: So and to answer your rhetorical question, can he redeem it?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_05: The answer is obviously yes.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, he can redeem anything, and that that's what's cool.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_05: But to your point about your identity, and this is something because I'm I'm a little bit farther ahead of you on the road, but not not that much.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um when we joined him on the other side, whatever that looks like, you know, where I'm I'm sure even back to the garden, there's gonna be work and things that we're doing, but I don't think anybody's gonna care what we accomplished here.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, on the other side, if you're quote unquote just a woodworker or whatever, I don't I I think because all the pride and the arrogance is gone and those insecurities, so I I I'd love to tell you do it all the time.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_05: I certainly don't, but that has been something that as I when I try to reflect and think, is this really gonna matter from a future perspective?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_05: The answer often is no.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_05: And it was, I should know where this is in the New Testament, but where I think it was Paul who wrote that, you know, your whatever you do, it's gonna be go through fire, and anything that's left will be basically rewards in heaven, whatever that means.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um but I think that idea of are we chasing things that actually matter or not, and that's not to say business totally matters, you know, creating wealth, creating opportunities for people, these are all wonderful things.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_05: I don't mean to to demean that in any way, shape, or form.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's a phenomenal thing, but if you're doing it for the wrong motives, then you've built all this wealth, and now you're the the guy who owns the barns, and you know, yeah, what good did that do you?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually been something else too, is like even with like I've always wanted to I've always wanted to build obviously a I always my the way my brain thinks is like like the highest level possible.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like sure I start something, I want it to go like nationwide or international.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's how I've been about my company.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like before it was tied to performance, and now it's like one, glorifying the Lord, but also like tactically, tangibly, the Lord is showing me, like, even just within the small team that we have now, like, okay, if we scale, they will be blessed.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, for instance, one of my guys, um he is not yet making the money he wants to make because we don't have like the lead flow that that we need in order for him to make the money he needs it he he needs to make.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh he's a sales guy, yeah.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he's young, on fire for the Lord.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um, and he's 19 and he's about like he wants to get engaged.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: He has like this ring that's pretty expensive picked out for his for his girlfriend.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, been together for three years.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing like rushed necessarily, right?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm like, okay, cool.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's like the Lord's revealing to me, it's not just about my own selfish ambition.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, let us scale because I like I I enjoy scaling.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: But also like let us scale so that I can better serve um harder.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's about impact.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then because also like the Lord's revealed to me, it's so good that the small team that we have now, like, why can't we copy and paste a culture of discipleship and fellowship nationwide?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_05: Totally.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_05: And to your point, I think a lot of times you can end up at the same place with a nationwide business, for example, but the motivation behind it is fundamentally different.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's the redemption side of it.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you could literally do The exact same things, the exact same way, all of it the same.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_05: But the motivation, which will translate into people will feel that and back to the rift healing, I think you will you can create rifts if you do things for the wrong reason, but you will heal those hurts and damages between people and that back to impact the word choice there.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_05: You you can impact the people in your business, and then you can have a national nationwide level of impact as well, all while building a national business, which is great.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_05: No.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: What are your beliefs around kingdom inheritance?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Treasures in heaven.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because as we know, we're saved by faith or by grace through faith.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: But then like you said, Paul and in the gospels, I believe Jesus as well talks about treasure in heaven.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Where your heart is, so your treasure too will be.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_05: No, you're right.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or you're yeah, I think you're right.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_05: Um well I will preface this with, I don't know.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_05: So I I I'm no theologian.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_05: I'm sure there's like Greek gotchas and the word choice there, and probably some Old Testament tie-ins that I've not thought about.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so I I I think I would start with the motivation side of it.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_05: So if if I'm only being nice to you, for example, because I want a treasure in heaven, I think that's an example where that's gonna burn up in the fire, whatever that even means, and like it's not gonna, that's not gold.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_05: The Lord's not gonna persist.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_05: So, and then I also think about the uh the example he pointed out with a widow put in the mite in the treasury, and he's like, She gave more than all the other people.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_05: So it's not even about the size and the scope of what you're doing.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_05: So, and another thing to think about, uh, a mentor of mine, he called it his mercy wagon, where if you don't look back and see the wagon of mercy, that's all the things that God has blessed you with, you know, the the family you were born into.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_05: Because even if you look at somebody, I'm gonna get around to the question, but even if you look at other people around you and say, you know, that person, he's a bad person, she's a bad person.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_05: But man, maybe they grew up, they were abused by their parents, you know, parents died young, fill in the blank.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_05: And what happens if you had been in that position, and what happens if they were grew up in your family in your situation circumstances?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know the answer to those questions.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_05: So I think that people, I'm gonna give you a very evasive answer.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_05: I think that worrying about treasure in heaven means I've already misplaced my priorities.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_05: So I I don't mean to evade it.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_05: Like I think there's an interesting theological conversation to have on it, but it's it I think it is a misappropriation.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_05: We're missing the mark by asking the it's maybe analogous to uh when we were all younger, you know, how how far is too far with a girl?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_05: And my response is I'm probably already going too far just by asking the question.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_05: Like I've yeah, I want to know where my lines are, and I so I can get up to the line, but really I should be like, How do I honor her and her family?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_05: And I think similar thing here, like if I'm worried about getting treasure in heaven, I'm looking for all the wrong things.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_05: Where Jesus is like, just go He boiled it all down, go love God and love other people.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_05: And if I'm doing those things, I shouldn't worry about the treasure in heaven.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I have it in here.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord actually, one of my anchor verses is Matthew 22, 36 to 40, the greatest two commandments.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: And the Lord prompted me recently to like do a deeper study of what does it actually look like to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, all your strength.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_05: And by the way, that word strength to rudely interrupt you in Hebrew, back to Bema and all the stuff I've been learning the last year or two.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_05: Uh the word is actually it's not a bad translation for strength, and I don't know the Hebrew word, but it actually means like you're everything.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_05: So not just strength, but like all of you.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that's that's that one, I think specifically was like, okay, what does that mean?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does that mean like my butt?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_05: You're not buffing up, Antonio.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, go get to the gym.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um yeah, and then I guess also this is just a question for me that I'm I'm I'm learning about to my understanding, each human is created with a heart, a mind, a soul, right?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we have Holy Spirit, but we also have our own spirit, right?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: What is the difference between our spirit and our soul?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_05: Oh man, so one, I'm no theologian, so take everything I say with a giant block of salt, but uh back to some Hebrew.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_05: I think the word is nephesh.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and it it doesn't really mean, as I under, and I'm probably gonna get this wrong, it doesn't really mean like when your body dies, your soul floats up like an ethereal ghost to heaven, right?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_05: Like it this is a sidebar which relates to I I I actually wrankle a little bit when people say, you know, I'm gonna live, I'm gonna be in heaven.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_05: Like actually, you're not, you're gonna be on the new earth because I think when people say heaven, they think God is a spirit, so I'm gonna be a spirit, which is actually the dualistic problem from Greek, uh the Greco-Roman mindset.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_05: So we are gonna be on a new earth where God is coming to us.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_05: Because the whole idea behind Eden, sorry, I'm like soapboxing now.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_05: The whole idea behind the Garden of Eden was it's where God came down and met with us, and he wants to be with us.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_05: And even in the sacrificial system in the Old Testament, a lot of it is people feel like, well, we're just covering up our sins.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_05: And that's true, but the idea is not so we can get right with God, it's so God can be with us.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_05: Like he wants to be with us.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_05: That's the whole objective with it.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I think when people think of, oh, I'm gonna be in heaven and perfect, well, you're you're gonna have a body.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_05: Jesus came back with a new body, whatever that means.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_05: We are meant to be physical beings.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_05: So I think our soul, for me, how I would articulate it, soul and spirit are kind of one and the same, I guess, but it's like your your essence, like that's the core of who you are, but it's not disembodied.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_05: It is your thoughts, your feelings, your heart, the the the entirety of you, but I can't remove that from your body.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_05: The the two are inextricably linked.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_05: So when we get the new bodies, it's going to be some new better version, whatever that means, but it's still inherent to who you are.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_05: So your your soul is the non-physical part of you, but it can't exist without the physical, I guess is the way I would articulate that.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: You said it can, can't, can, or cannot.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think it can, because I think we are physical beings.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_05: And we can God is a spirit, we are not spirit, but we have a spirit within us.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_05: So I haven't quite figured out what all that means.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_05: But if we were meant to be just spiritual, we would die and go to heaven and not have a body, but he's going to remake the earth and we're going to have new bodies.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_05: So the soul is somehow inextricably linked.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_05: It is important to God that we have bodies.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for one thing, I would I would imagine that in the new earth there would be a lot more kids in nature and a lot less kids on their iPads.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think there'll be iPads in the new heaven or the new earth.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's a huge I think we kind of just uh whisked past that pretty quickly with like we're not going to heaven, we're going to new earth.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: If that's the case, what is heaven?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_05: So great question.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_05: What is the purpose of heaven?
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_05: So back to some Hebrew.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry, I'm nerding out.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_05: I actually really enjoy this immensely.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_05: So the word for heaven is just skies.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_05: So in the Old Testament, if you see sky or heaven, they're interchangeable.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_05: So I think that we have created, and I actually think it is a dualism flaw.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_05: There's a specific term for it from the Greco-Roman concepts.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_05: I can't remember it, but physical is bad, spiritual is good, is the effective idea behind that.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that is inherently broken because God created a physical world for us.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_05: He like physical is good.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_05: And the the word for God is Elohim, which is uh Hebrew for spirit.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_05: He's actually Elohim of Elohim, because our other Elohim, but we are not Elohim.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_05: And that's very intentional separation.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_05: So um, but in Eden, the idea was it's it is heaven and earth meeting.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_05: And even in the tabernacle, if you look at the language used, heaven and earth meet.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_05: And so I think in the new heaven and the new earth, they will be somehow merged together, and we can experience a spiritual God because we do have spiritual components, again, whatever that means, uh, but we will still be physical somehow.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_05: So I again I say all that because it's really, really important to remember the physical matters a lot.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_05: And this is a complete segue, but even like we are meant to be caretakers of our world, and I think we as Christians in particular, like, uh, it doesn't matter, you know, God'll make a new one.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_05: Like, well, it matters because this is his creation, he wants us to be caretakers for it.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_05: And if we can't take care of this version, like that's not a good look for the new version he's gonna give us either.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_05: So I don't know if I answered your question.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_05: I kind of went a rambling diatribe there.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_05: No, that's good.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I I I guess uh ultimately I say a lot of that because coming back to even the way Jesus talked, the things that matter to him, think about it.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_05: He it was feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the people in prison.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_05: It wasn't go teach them the right things and make sure they're being very spiritual.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it doesn't mean that he didn't care about that, but the woman caught adultery.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_05: The very first thing he did was he he drew in the sand.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_05: He didn't even do it.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_05: And then he talked to the people and said, Hey, first person without sin, go ahead and cast a stone, that's fine.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_05: So he used truth on them, but then to the woman, you know, he dignified her and says, Hey, once once everyone was gone, then he was like, Okay, go and sin no more.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_05: So he didn't absolve her of it, but he dignified her first.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_05: So you you just see the way he approached the world was very much concrete, not this theoretical, spiritual, theological approach to things.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's a couple different things bubbling up.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: Free will.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's have it.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: In the second earth is no sin, right?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: As far as I know.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we as Christians are called to live apart from sin.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: We are called to have our trans our transgressions as far as the east is from the west, right?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: Away from us, right?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Our our transgressions.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: But still, when we die on this earth, there's gonna be a lot of Christians are still gonna have something lingering around.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: So is that pruned when you approach a king's throne between the first and second heaven?
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_05: As in, are you asking how do we not sin to the new world?
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_05: Well, if I knew that, I'd be God.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_05: So I'll start with that.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_05: But uh, you know, think about it like this darkness can't exist in light.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_05: And in the new earth, if if if I'm right, and I could be wrong because I've not been on the other side yet, but if if it really is a true fusion meeting of heaven and earth, and God is always present in a way that we don't experience now, we can like genuinely experience them at all times.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know that you would even have the desire to sin.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_05: I I think it would just be you're constantly in God's presence and not in a warning, oh, the teacher is around kind of way, but just this overwhelming loving father who sees you constantly, wants to be with you, totally values you, and I don't think you'd have any desire to do anything against him because I think you if you experienced so I listened to a recent podcast about near-death experiences, and I don't know how much weight I put on them, to be fair, because you know someone died and comes back, and you're like, I can't prove or disprove it.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_05: But one guy's anecdotal story was he said that he was, and they everybody said when they experienced Jesus, they just said the overwhelming love.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_05: They they one person said, like, imagine the love you feel for your spouse and your kids, multiply it times a billion, now times a billion, now times a billion, and you're kind of getting close.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_05: And so this one guy said that he was with Jesus, and um he realized every second he was there, Jesus loved him more than the previous second.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_05: And then he said, Oh my gosh, I realized I I'm his favorite.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_05: And he said, Well, what about like my mom?
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_05: And Jesus looks at him almost befuddled and said, Well, she's my favorite.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_05: Well, what about my brother?
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_05: Well, he's my favorite.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_05: Like the when you experience a love like that constantly, I don't know how you would sin.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_05: I think it would that just abolishes that desire entirely.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting goosebumps.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's cool.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_05: I I think we I think we so water down the mystical, I won't say magical because that's the wrong word choice, but the God is a god of power and God is a god of love, and we so want to whitewash it and make it tangible and understandable, put it in boxes, that we just lose that power and that to your point, the goosebumps.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_05: If you encounter the living God and you don't get goosebumps, you might be dead.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: And this isn't like this isn't even you saying it, it was you saying that he said it.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is that love that Jesus loved him more the second than the last.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I believe that we are as loved right now as we will ever be.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_05: Totally right.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_05: I think he was trying to articulate maybe that's a better way to say it would be like his realization of it, but that was his words.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_05: But it's just like, oh my gosh, God loves me.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh, he loves me more than I thought.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh, he loves me more than that.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_05: Like it's that constant growing feeling of God's love for you.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_05: It's receiving a better way to articulate.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_05: Because his love is infinite, but like if you can just get a little bit more every second, yeah.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_05: Not that he has the love is actually growing for you, but you are realizing it's more than it was.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_05: And that just your capacity to understand it grows.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_05: Like that, I didn't know what you'd do with that, but probably not sin would be my answer.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because uh if you think about sin, a lot of it comes from again, one of those four doors that I mentioned earlier.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you have that love that covers all sin, right, then you don't need to act out.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you are willingly acting out or like just you don't even realize it.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_05: Well, and and to that point, uh, I'll give props to the Bible Project podcast.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_05: They they talked about the tree, and the way we typically translate is tree of good and evil, um, but really it's more the tree of good and bad.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_05: And the word for bad is, you know, if I punch you in the face, that's certainly bad, that's wrong.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_05: But if I stub my toe, that's also bad.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_05: It'd be the same Hebrew word.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_05: But the idea behind it is, and and this phrasing matters because it's all over the place in the Old Testament.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_05: And the phrasing is something of like they they saw the apple, they desired the apple, and they took.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_05: And so you can see David do that with Bathsheba.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_05: He saw, he desired, and he took.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_05: And the whole premise comes down to back to that abundance or scarcity mindset.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_05: Do you trust that God has your best intentions in mind?
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_05: Does he want what's best for you?
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_05: And when I take that apple, I take that fruit, I'm saying no, I don't think he does.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that is ultimately the root of sin, where I think, and people say it's pride, and I could, I could get on board with that.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_05: I think I know better than God what's important for me, what's good for me.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_05: And so I think when we're actually in his presence, we're gonna be blown away of oh my gosh, you you do know what's better, and you do want that good for me.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you believe that we'll be filled with sorrow of like, man, I like I wish I were, I would have, I wish I would have realized this when I was 10 years old or out of the womb on the first earth.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm sure there's an element of that.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, back to the some of the near-death experienced ones.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_05: Again, I take it with a grain of salt, but they some of them had like a life experience and they like the life flashed before their eyes and stuff, and you know, they felt bad, and very, very quickly Jesus made them feel loved and it was okay.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_05: So I think there'd be like a flash of that, but you know, if we're there for eternity, you're not gonna feel we're with God.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_05: We should not feel bad while we're with God.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: But right.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: But the on the other side, you know, it's but the Lord also tells us to forget the past.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_05: I heard someone smarter than me recently, I can't remember who it was, which is embarrassing, but they said that they felt they were wrestling with something and that they had already confessed and got it forgiven them, and they felt the Lord give them a very clear word of you need to stop reminding you need to stop reminding me, God, of this sin.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I've forgiven you, I've forgotten it, it's gone.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_05: Why are you bringing it back up to me?
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, ooh, that's that's a fair point.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_05: That's good.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really good.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think the main thing that's coming to mind right now is I feel like we've been kind of high level throughout this episode.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um for those who are maybe early pretty early on, just now getting to know the Lord, how can they draw closer to the Lord and cultivate a deeper and deeper and more meaningful walk with him?
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_05: So several thoughts on that, but I'll preface it with, and I'm gonna get the quote wrong, by a guy named A.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_05: W.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_05: Tozer.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_05: If you've not read his books, prepare to have your brain bleed out your ear.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_05: It mind-bending stuff for some of his stuff.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_05: But he the the synopsis of the thought was the single most important thing about a man or woman uh is what they believe about God.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_05: And the reason that matters is if you don't think that there's an eternity, that I should be doing whatever's best for me here.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_05: I should be going out and getting as much as I can because this is the only life we get.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_05: But if you do believe there's a God, that should completely realign your priorities.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_05: So I start with that because I think if if you are choosing to believe that there is a God, then that should set you down a path of I need to better understand this God.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_05: So the best way to do it is get in the Bible.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_05: And some of the Bible can be weird, it can be hard.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_05: There are credible resources out there.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_05: I already mentioned, like Bible Project, Bema Podcast, or some things I'd recommend.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_05: Get involved in a church group.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but I think also be honest about it.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_05: You know, God, God is a God that is comfortable with doubt and uncertainty.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_05: I think there is an unhealthy way to say, I don't trust you, God.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_05: But I think there is a healthy way to say, uh, I don't know what's going on.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_05: I don't like this.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_05: What's the purpose here?
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_05: Or even I think you can even say, I don't know that I even believe in you, God, but I'm trying this prayer thing and let's see what happens.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Increase my faith.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_05: Right, exactly right.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_05: So I I think just that authenticity, that transparency, that desire to actually learn and and start digging into it is important because you can't, you can't just say, Okay, God, I want to do this.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_05: And then not show up and do your part.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_05: It there is work on your side to do.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_05: It is a relationship.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_05: I pray that to this day.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um relatively often increase my faith when I recognize that I've replaced instead of worship of God in the center, really worship of worry.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because worry is worship.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: There was um you might know this.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: I heard that there's there's a joint word for faith and fear.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: I do not know this.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know what the word is.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was hoping you would.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: I did not.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's a joint word for faith and fear, where really when you are in living in fear, you are living in faith.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it depends on what you do with the fear.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_05: That bad thing happening.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I see.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely right.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like power to it.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, okay, if I if I'm going into a business deal, for instance, and I'm like fearful, I can have faith that whatever I'm fearful of will happen, and that I'm being faithful to my fear.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if I'm faithful and I'm like, okay, Lord, like this is in your hands, I know that you will bless it, then I can act in faith.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: But either way, it's really like fear is faith.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: Perverted.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_05: That's a great way to put it.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_05: You've basically already assumed the worst is going to happen or the thing you're afraid of is going to happen, and you act out of that fear.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_05: Whereas if you have faith in God, you act out of, I trust that He's going to do his best, which still may not be what you want.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_05: But it's a different, yeah.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_05: I like those, I like that combination of those two.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: Have you read The Sacred uh what is it?
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: Walking at a Sacred Pace, Moving at a Secret Pace?
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I have.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a book that Ethan Frenauber, I don't know if I have it on me.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Ethan Frenober recommended well, actually recommended it to Jamar, who recommended it to me.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's funny, you were I was looking at this earlier.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I feel like the Lord's gonna bring it up at some point.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you were just talking about priorities, and so this is like planning God's way.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it determined it says the first step according to God's priorities, so d determine before God my priorities.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what are the priorities of my life?
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: Not just like for me, not just like how I can I get this promotion or this raise, whatever it might be, right?
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this status, recognition, this award, but maybe time in a secret place.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: What a concept.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh maybe time with your family, right?
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but determining that before God.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, that's ideally probably doesn't have to be, but probably in prayer and fasting.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe on a retreat, like where everything's quiet.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_05: If that's where it works for you, absolutely.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_05: It can be different for everybody, but yeah, absolutely.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then from there, this is the interesting part.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: So first you're determining before God your priorities, and then from there after you know your priorities, it's like, okay, now I determine how many hours to spend on my vocation weekly, right?
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_01: Versus my vocation being a hundred hours a week, and then everything else is like gets the crumbs.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm also reminded of you mentioned earlier the upside down kingdom.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds very much like the upside down kingdom that we see in today's day and age.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think it's important to remember too that there are it's kind of like God's will, in that I think about like a bullseye approach where similar to priorities, there are high-level God's will, high-level God's priorities, like love people well, care for people.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_05: Then there's probably an inner sphere where maybe more specific to you, you know, you're in real estate, so there's some priorities in how you handle that where I'm more on the technology side, different priorities there.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_05: But then there may be specific priorities just to you as a person, like at the very center of that.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I say all that because I I think people hear that, oh, I need to I need to move to Africa and be a uh a missionary.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_05: Well, maybe, but also maybe not.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_05: You know, maybe you should go launch a national nationwide business.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_05: Like that might be God's priority for you, so long as you're staying in the higher level priorities of are you honoring him?
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_05: Are you loving other people well?
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and and a story that my pastor said, and I can't remember all the pieces of it, but it's kind of dark.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_05: But it gives you a good analogy of you're standing at a river and there are a bunch of babies floating down the river and they're drowning.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_05: Do you grab the babies?
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_05: Or do you go upstream to figure out what's causing the babies to go in there and fix that problem?
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_05: Or do you help the people who are trying to help the babies make sure they have the tools they need?
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_05: Because you can't do all of it.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_05: And the reason he brings that up is we we should be saving the babies, obviously, but all of those problems need solved.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_05: And your heart might be, I'm gonna go upstream and fix the root of the problem.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_05: And mine might be there's a baby right in front of me that needs saving.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so you have to be faithful to who God made you to be and who he called you to be.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_05: And that I bring that up with your priorities concept because your priorities may not be my priorities, and that's not a bad thing.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where one of the pillars we talked about earlier, determining your priorities before God, right, before the Holy Spirit, how he moves, as long as it's aligned with the word of God and seeking counsel.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I would for me, I'd say it's yeah, the base is the word of God, the secondary is how the Lord talks to you.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third would be wise counsel, and they're all important, but it has to be in my belief, those that order.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_05: I agree.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_05: And I do think that that that the top one you mentioned there, or bottom, however, you want to think about it.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_05: But the the the third tier of that, which is other people, they can correct your misperception on the other two.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_05: So that's important to note too, where I think I read this in the scripture, but someone else may come along and say, No, I'm gonna correct that.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_05: And you obviously have to wrestle with that too.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_05: So that doesn't mean they supersede it in any way, shape, or form, but in our own interpretation of scripture, we can get things wrong too.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_05: So scripture does remain the core.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_05: I want to be very clear on that point, but we might get it wrong, and that's where we need other people to help teach and guide us as well.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's some areas of scripture that are like it depends on where you read.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_05: And it that gets an interesting question, like why are they different?
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, what's the context of it?
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_05: And there's that's its own can of worms that's very large.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably where, to some large extent, wise counsel that are further in their walk can help.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_05: And even there, people have different perspectives.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, um, when I was at Taylor, we we didn't allow dancing.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_05: We used to joke that uh, you know why you can't have premarital sex?
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_05: Because it leads to dancing.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's the joke.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_05: Because if you're married at Taylor, you you could have sex, obviously, but you couldn't dance.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_05: That was against the rules.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_05: It's like very confusing.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but I bring that up because I think really well-intentioned people really thought dancing was Satan on earth.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_05: You know, just this is a major problem, it causes major pain for youth.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_05: And there's truth in that, like the wrong kind of dancing.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_05: But and you could probably lift that out of some Bible verses.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_05: But while I disagree, you know, I can see how people come to those different conclusions.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_05: So we're all good.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_05: The point of that is we're all gonna come to different conclusions, and how do we still operate in a way that honors and loves one another, knowing that you might wrestle eating meat sacrificed idols, which there's a phenomenal story about why that's what that actually entails, but that's a whole other conversation.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I might not have a problem with that at all.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_05: And is that good or bad?
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_05: And the answer is I think it depends, which is very unhelpful.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do we discern whether we are being led by conviction from the Lord or by the spirit of religion and performance?
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_05: Man, great question.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_05: I I think the very first thing is you actually said earlier is that palms up, which is also a spirit of humility.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_05: If I am convinced I am doing the Lord has called me to, and you cannot speak to me about it, there's a good chance I'm already wrong.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_05: Now, I might be right, but if I say, look, I'm convinced that God's given me this word, you're welcome to talk about it.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_05: Let's let's wrestle with that.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_05: That is a positive spirit there.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_05: So the minute it's rigid and unmoving doesn't mean you're wrong necessarily, but that's an immediate red flag to me of you've probably not really opened yourself up to maybe I did get this wrong from the Lord.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_05: So if you feel like the God's given you a calling in your life, for example, great, go for it.
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_05: But also be willing to have other people speak to you and say, Are you sure?
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_05: And here's what the Lord told me, and let's let's process that together.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_05: And I think one other thought, bringing it back to Jesus, because you know, he knows a thing or a million.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um is that spirit, is that thing you're doing loving God well and loving others well?
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_05: If it's not honoring others, you're like you're off base, just full stop.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_05: Is it hurting other people?
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I should be clear, you can't make everyone happy all the time.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, if you're running a business, for example, you have financial constraints.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_05: It'd be great if you could pay everybody$10 million a year.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_05: It'd be wonderful.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_05: Let's do that if we can.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_05: But you can't.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_05: So people might be hurt with some of the business decisions you have to make.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think that's a sin.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think that's wrong.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_05: So hurting people isn't always wrong.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's the motivation behind it and everything like that.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_05: So, but if if you're not leading and making decisions from a place of I love God and I love other people, then I think what you think you heard from the Lord might be true, but you're living it out very wrong.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_01: When I think about drawing closer to the Lord, I think about spiritual disciplines.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, reading the Bible, prayer, going to church, I like a Bible study with a group, silence and solitude.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I first started my walk, it did feel performative, like I it was something I had to do.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I also I guess maybe looking back on it, maybe it was Holy Spirit, but it it part of me was like, I'll keep pushing through because I know like one day like I'll actually want to, right?
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: But is that the spirit of religion?
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Of like, I have to read the Bible, I have to go to the study, I have to go to church, or trying to draw closer to the Lord with maybe my hands closed, right?
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_05: I I think a good analogy would be going to the gym in that it would be awesome.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_05: So I work out pretty much every day, and it would be awesome if I wanted to work out every day.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_05: It'd be so easy.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_05: But discipline requires that I even when I don't want to do a thing, I'm gonna go to the gym.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_05: And I think some of these, what can feel now?
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_05: There can be a performative side of it where I'm doing it for attention, and that's a problem.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_05: But I woke up, I'm tired, I don't want to read my Bible, I'm gonna do it anyhow.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_05: I don't even feel like it.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe I don't even get anything out of it, quote unquote.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_05: But I'm showing up, I'm doing the reps using gym terminology.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_05: Like I will get results from that.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're doing it to get attention, that's a problem.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_05: But if you're doing it from a disciplined perspective, that matters.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_05: Getting those reps in matters.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, their gym analogy is there is no the only bad workout is one you didn't do.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that's similar to a lot of these spiritual practices.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_05: The only bad ones are the ones you're not doing or doing it for performative reasons.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've been going a while.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um what would you have gone about an hour and a half almost?
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you were to put this episode in one sentence, what would you like the audience to take away?
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_05: If you only give me one sentence, or one, yeah, but I'll I'll I'll do one sentence in a little bit larger.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_05: If I only had one sentence, it would be love God and love others.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_05: And if I expounded just a little bit on that, uh a lot of the high-level esoteric, kind of nerdy theological stuff we talked about, on one hand, I don't know that you have to go that deep, but for me, that's really enriched and changed my view of God, which in turn has helped me see the diversity of other people and all the way back to that rift idea.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_05: People matter.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_05: People really do matter.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_05: And if we don't see that, we are not living like Christ.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_05: We are missing the fundamental point.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_05: We are here to love one another and ultimately to love God.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're learning these things, if you're diving these interesting ideas and topics and it's not translating into loving others well, you're missing the point.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_05: So reorient yourself to how do I heal some of the broken places in this broken world and be a light in the darkness?
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I keep having like questions.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I could keep this going for like hours.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_01: My mind is has a lot of ideas.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I could continue this conversation all day.
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, I I'm I'll probably be praying around about this one for a while now.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um but love God and love other people.
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um man, thank you, Cyrus, for being here.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_01: This was wonderful.
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, I got goose homes earlier.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to go and unpack this with the Lord.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_01: That'll be a fun experience, probably some good time at Eagle Creek.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, thank you for being here.
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how can how can people find you?
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you want people to find you.
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_05: If not, you can via um I'm on Facebook, I barely ever use it.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think I have a Twitter account or an X account.
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_05: I barely ever use it.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_05: Uh email, you could always email me.
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's just cyrus.kech at gmail.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it's probably the easiest way to do it.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_05: I'd respond to that.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_05: Sweet.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, man.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate you.