Latest / The Breakfast Club / INTERVIEW: Jessica Tarlov on Trump, Political Arguments & Winning Without Losing Friends

Transcript

INTERVIEW: Jessica Tarlov on Trump, Political Arguments & Winning Without Losing Friends · The Breakfast Club

0:00
Speaker 1: Hold up.
0:01
Speaker 2: Every day I wake up.
0:03
Speaker 1: Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club. Y'all finished or
0:05
Speaker 1: y'all done? Morning, everybody.
0:09
Speaker 3: It's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are
0:13
Speaker 3: The Breakfast Club. Law and the Rose is here as well.
0:15
Speaker 3: We got a special guest in the building. We have
0:17
Speaker 3: Jessica Tarlow.
0:18
Speaker 4: Welcome. Thank you so much.
0:19
Speaker 3: How you feeling this morning?
0:21
Speaker 4: I'm a little nervous.
0:22
Speaker 1: Why? Happy Book Pub Day.
0:24
Speaker 5: Because it's Book Pub Day, and that's a nerve-wracking thing.
0:27
Speaker 5: But this is the best way I could ever imagine
0:30
Speaker 5: kicking it off, so thank you guys for having me.
0:32
Speaker 6: Our book is called I Disagree, Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends.
0:37
Speaker 6: Have we reached a point in American politics where some
0:41
Speaker 6: disagreements should cost you friendships, though?
0:43
Speaker 5: I have heard from a lot of people who absolutely
0:46
Speaker 5: think so, and... The point of the book is not
0:49
Speaker 5: to force people into relationships or conversations that they don't
0:53
Speaker 5: want to have, but to speak to the people that
0:56
Speaker 5: I know from the outreach that I get and just
0:59
Speaker 5: conversations that you have with friends and family where they
1:02
Speaker 5: are bemoaning the fact that we can't talk to each other.
1:05
Speaker 4: And it's not just about politics. It's about.
1:08
Speaker 5: It feels like every facet of life. You know, I
1:10
Speaker 5: have a four and a half and a two and
1:11
Speaker 5: a half year old. And I feel like the mom
1:13
Speaker 5: chat is as heated as talking about immigration. You know,
1:17
Speaker 5: do you send an Oreo to school and the kids lunchbox?
1:21
Speaker 5: What are you doing with screen time? Marriage is hard,
1:24
Speaker 5: you know, and we're all pretty siloed and pretty angry.
1:29
Speaker 4: And I have.
1:32
Speaker 5: this unique job, certainly in the media space, being the
1:35
Speaker 5: only liberal talking to four conservatives and doing that for
1:39
Speaker 5: several years, I feel like I've developed a toolkit. And
1:42
Speaker 5: so I wanted to share it with people.
1:44
Speaker 6: I read somewhere that you, you said before you, I guess,
1:48
Speaker 6: get into a debate on Fox, you already find something
1:50
Speaker 6: you can concede on.
1:52
Speaker 4: Not necessarily concede. I call it the soft start.
1:55
Speaker 1: Okay.
1:55
Speaker 5: And I really, it's kind of could be summed up
1:58
Speaker 5: as just being a normal human being, right? That you,
2:01
Speaker 5: if you're, going to meet somebody or talk to them
2:04
Speaker 5: that you try to think about stuff you have in common.
2:07
Speaker 5: Like if you sit down for a date, right, you're
2:09
Speaker 5: going to try to figure that out. And that's what
2:11
Speaker 5: I do as well. Either some kind of olive branch
2:14
Speaker 5: where it's like, I actually looked into the way that
2:17
Speaker 5: you see this. If we're talking about legislation, it's a
2:19
Speaker 5: pretty boring example, but I try to engage people. with
2:23
Speaker 5: all of the components to make sure that I could
2:25
Speaker 5: see how someone could get to yes before I spend
2:28
Speaker 5: all my time saying this is why it should be
2:31
Speaker 5: a no. Like with the big beautiful bill, which we
2:34
Speaker 5: talked about for months and months and months. And I
2:38
Speaker 5: feel like it's a great table setting for any conversation.
2:41
Speaker 5: And it can be something funny or light. I mean,
2:44
Speaker 5: you guys know in the way that you interact with
2:46
Speaker 5: each other and a bunch of comedians also. Not saying
2:49
Speaker 5: I'm as funny as a comedian, but, you know, poking
2:51
Speaker 5: at someone and just also indicating to the audience because
2:55
Speaker 5: there are millions of people that are taking you in remotely.
2:58
Speaker 5: Say like, no, we're actually friends and it might get
3:01
Speaker 5: a bit heated, but we're OK. And you should be
3:04
Speaker 5: OK also in your own life if you're talking about
3:06
Speaker 5: this stuff.
3:07
Speaker 3: Do you like the conversations are having more? Reason I
3:11
Speaker 3: ask is I remember back in the day, my parents
3:13
Speaker 3: didn't have conversations about politics.
3:15
Speaker 1: It was certain things we didn't have in the house.
3:17
Speaker 5: Right.
3:17
Speaker 3: We didn't talk about politics. We didn't talk about religion
3:19
Speaker 3: when it came to other people. We just talked about
3:21
Speaker 3: normal stuff, whether it was sports, whether it was going
3:23
Speaker 3: on in the community. But we stayed away from it.
3:25
Speaker 3: But now it seems like we're talking about it more,
3:28
Speaker 3: which is taking that into the schools where now our
3:31
Speaker 3: kids are talking about it more. And now our kids'
3:33
Speaker 3: friend groups are based on, well, you voted for him,
3:35
Speaker 3: your parents voted for him, then we're not talking to you.
3:37
Speaker 3: And it's making it awkward because now you can't really
3:39
Speaker 3: have an opinion because your opinion can affect your social life.
3:43
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's really rough out there for kids.
3:46
Speaker 5: Mine are too young to have these kinds of opinions.
3:50
Speaker 3: Four and a half, they understand. If they go to school,
3:51
Speaker 3: they definitely understand.
3:52
Speaker 1: I have a four and a half.
3:55
Speaker 4: They know Trump. Yes, she does know that.
3:57
Speaker 5: And she knows like mama's on the TV, but she
4:00
Speaker 5: doesn't know yet what mama is saying.
4:05
Speaker 4: And that she wears fake eyelashes.
4:07
Speaker 5: That's basically where we are at this point. But you
4:10
Speaker 5: do see how much parents are putting their politics on
4:14
Speaker 5: their kids, which feels unfair to a large degree. And,
4:19
Speaker 5: you know, I take politics very seriously. I understand your
4:22
Speaker 5: opening question. You say, like, you know, should we be
4:25
Speaker 5: losing friends? A lot of people I know think that
4:29
Speaker 5: supporting Trump or Trumpism is about morality and that if
4:34
Speaker 5: you go along with this, you are saying you don't
4:36
Speaker 5: care if people's health care gets taken away. You don't
4:38
Speaker 5: care about Head Start. You don't care about USAID. You
4:42
Speaker 5: don't care about what happens to immigrants or, frankly, Americans
4:45
Speaker 5: that are trying to protect immigrants.
4:47
Speaker 1: But that still feels like policy, though. So I think
4:50
Speaker 1: those are fair.
4:51
Speaker 4: No, I understand that.
4:53
Speaker 5: I'm saying that the reason that my solution to it
4:58
Speaker 5: or what I'm putting in the book doesn't necessarily translate
5:00
Speaker 5: for everybody or maybe what's happening in these households is
5:03
Speaker 5: that I understand when folks say this is a moral imperative.
5:07
Speaker 4: That you oppose these things.
5:09
Speaker 1: But.
5:10
Speaker 5: there's a lot still to distill about the conservative community.
5:14
Speaker 5: And you guys obviously talked about this a ton around
5:16
Speaker 5: the 2024 election and weren't particularly surprised by the outcome
5:20
Speaker 5: when so many traditional democratic voters moved over and voted
5:24
Speaker 5: for Trump and took a flyer on the guy who
5:26
Speaker 5: they thought would be better for the economy. And one
5:28
Speaker 5: of the main theses of the book and that I
5:32
Speaker 5: talk to people a lot is that when liberals talk
5:35
Speaker 5: about politics, There's a lot of hyperbole to it. Some
5:39
Speaker 5: of it warranted, some of it not. But conservatives don't
5:43
Speaker 5: see it as the defining feature of their lives in
5:45
Speaker 5: the same way. I mean, not a guy who has
5:47
Speaker 5: like a Trump tattoo on his face, but the average
5:49
Speaker 5: conservative doesn't, you know, live and breathe it all day,
5:53
Speaker 5: every day. And I think that's preventing a lot of
5:57
Speaker 5: conversations and probably infiltrating to these kids.
6:00
Speaker 7: Right.
6:00
Speaker 5: Who are saying, you know, my mom told me that
6:02
Speaker 5: your family's this way. I don't want to hang out
6:05
Speaker 5: with you or, you know, we see the world differently.
6:08
Speaker 6: Where is the line between accepting somebody who thinks differently
6:11
Speaker 6: and tolerating something that just violates your values?
6:14
Speaker 5: I think it's personal for everybody. And I know that
6:17
Speaker 5: I'm in a different position because this is my job
6:19
Speaker 5: versus I'm doing this for fun.
6:22
Speaker 4: I'm compensated.
6:24
Speaker 5: It's a different calculation. But I think as we move
6:30
Speaker 5: towards a world where Donald Trump will not be as
6:34
Speaker 5: central of a figure in our politics, I think he
6:36
Speaker 5: will still play a huge role. And that will be
6:38
Speaker 5: obviously important to him as he rules from Mar-a-Lago or
6:42
Speaker 5: wherever he's going to go in political retirement.
6:46
Speaker 1: You think he's just going to walk away?
6:49
Speaker 5: No, but I think he will end up going. I,
6:52
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think it's going to be like
6:53
Speaker 5: a January 6th redux, but I think it is going
6:56
Speaker 5: to be ugly and it is going to be fraught.
6:58
Speaker 4: And I think that they are trying.
7:00
Speaker 5: To figure out every way that they can certainly within
7:04
Speaker 5: legal bounds and maybe in illegal bounds, find a way
7:08
Speaker 5: to continue to claw, to hold onto power. I take
7:11
Speaker 5: Steve Bannon very seriously. And, um, I think that we
7:15
Speaker 5: have to be prepared for it. I think Democrats are.
7:19
Speaker 5: There are a lot of books now about it and
7:21
Speaker 5: people like Mark Elias, the election attorney, obviously is super
7:24
Speaker 5: focused on this, but I don't think that we are
7:27
Speaker 5: prepared for the storm that is coming for the midterms
7:30
Speaker 5: and what they're going to do to make sure that
7:32
Speaker 5: people can't get to the polls or whatever they're going
7:36
Speaker 5: to say about fraud. And then 2028 will probably be
7:39
Speaker 5: even worse.
7:41
Speaker 1: What Supreme Court did yesterday, did it give you hope?
7:43
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are those moments. And then my colleagues will
7:48
Speaker 5: always make fun of me and be like, oh, see,
7:49
Speaker 5: they're not that bad when a decision that I align
7:53
Speaker 5: with comes down. Yes, I think it's a good thing.
7:56
Speaker 5: And there are glimmers of that. But when you know
8:00
Speaker 5: how organized they are this time around with Project 2025
8:04
Speaker 5: and the way that the first two and a half
8:07
Speaker 5: years of the administration has gone, only a year and
8:10
Speaker 5: a half, actually, I'm sorry.
8:11
Speaker 4: I can't believe it's just that little. Yeah.
8:13
Speaker 5: You know that they have plans for everything. And they
8:15
Speaker 5: have very smart people doing it.
8:17
Speaker 1: That's why this book is good, right?
8:18
Speaker 6: Because you spend every day arguing with conservatives who fundamentally
8:22
Speaker 6: disagree with you on stuff, right? So what have conservatives
8:25
Speaker 6: taught you that Democrats still don't understand about conservatives? Because
8:30
Speaker 6: I feel like you can't beat your opponent if you
8:32
Speaker 6: don't know anything about your opponent.
8:34
Speaker 4: And if you look down on them.
8:35
Speaker 5: Yes. That transformation has been really important. You know, I
8:39
Speaker 5: grew up here in the city, uh, very charmed life,
8:44
Speaker 5: basically knew no conservatives until I went to college. And
8:47
Speaker 5: that was even still like upper middle class kind of
8:52
Speaker 5: mainline Philadelphia, you know, Bush voters. I didn't, the MAGA
8:57
Speaker 5: movement I think was a bit of a jolt for everybody,
9:00
Speaker 5: generally speaking. And so getting to know people who come
9:05
Speaker 5: to their beliefs through legitimate means is, they grew up
9:10
Speaker 5: in gun culture, for instance, like as hunters or conservationists
9:14
Speaker 5: or people who are pro-life because of their religion. That
9:19
Speaker 5: was a whole new world to me in debating them.
9:22
Speaker 5: Or I have a bunch of colleagues who are veterans.
9:26
Speaker 5: Joey Jones, for instance, who joins the Five quite regularly,
9:30
Speaker 5: lost both of his legs from an IED in the
9:34
Speaker 5: Middle East. And so talking to him about notions of
9:37
Speaker 5: patriotism or what it means to support our troops or
9:42
Speaker 5: what good foreign policy is, is completely different than sitting
9:45
Speaker 5: in a kind of ivory tower castle and debating it.
9:48
Speaker 5: He knows the real implications of what can happen when
9:52
Speaker 5: we make these kinds of decisions. So I think fundamentally
9:56
Speaker 5: part of the problem is not knowing these people or
10:00
Speaker 5: having a caricature of what a trump voter looks like
10:03
Speaker 5: it's very different post 2024 right a trump voter looks
10:06
Speaker 5: like a 45 year old latino construction worker who always
10:09
Speaker 5: voted democrat or you know it looks like more women
10:14
Speaker 5: of color. It looks like more black men. It looks
10:16
Speaker 5: like all of these Gen Z guys who spend their
10:19
Speaker 5: time listening to Theo Vaughn and playing video games. So
10:24
Speaker 5: getting to know the people, understanding that it isn't the
10:27
Speaker 5: most important part of their identity and that a lot
10:30
Speaker 5: of times we're talking past each other because we're not
10:33
Speaker 5: recognizing that. Understanding that they don't fundamentally think that you're
10:39
Speaker 5: a bad person. I feel like we come in back
10:42
Speaker 5: against the wall a little bit and that that's not necessary.
10:46
Speaker 5: And then like what I was talking about with the
10:50
Speaker 5: soft start or I wanted to put these tips boxes
10:54
Speaker 5: in the book at the end of each chapter so
10:56
Speaker 5: that people could almost use it as a business book.
10:59
Speaker 5: And some of the ones that I think are most
11:00
Speaker 5: important are things like to think and talk in averages
11:04
Speaker 5: and not in anecdotes. You know how Ben Shapiro said,
11:06
Speaker 5: the facts don't care about your feelings. I've really changed
11:09
Speaker 5: the way that I make an argument and have a
11:12
Speaker 5: conversation because I know if the odds are that I
11:16
Speaker 5: get more emotional about it, they're going to shut off
11:18
Speaker 5: to it or be able to dismiss it more easily.
11:21
Speaker 3: But is there a productive disagreement? Because when you argue
11:24
Speaker 3: with somebody, sometimes.
11:25
Speaker 1: It's right fighting, right? They just want to win.
11:27
Speaker 3: They don't care who's right, who's wrong. They just want
11:30
Speaker 3: to win the argument.
11:31
Speaker 1: So is there a productive argument?
11:33
Speaker 4: I think so.
11:34
Speaker 5: I have a different definition of winning. OK, so and
11:38
Speaker 5: I write in the book that I don't think my
11:39
Speaker 5: job is to change minds, but to open them to
11:42
Speaker 5: the possibility that there is a representative of the left
11:46
Speaker 5: that thinks differently than you and is not insane or
11:49
Speaker 5: doesn't fit this caricature of, you know, like a blue
11:52
Speaker 5: haired wine mom turned activist or whatever they might cook up.
11:59
Speaker 5: I want viewers and I've met a lot of them
12:01
Speaker 5: out in the wild to see me as somebody who
12:04
Speaker 5: does her homework, who shows up prepared and honest and
12:09
Speaker 5: wanting to be part of the conversation, not coming in
12:12
Speaker 5: just to drop a haymaker and get a viral clip
12:15
Speaker 5: and walk out the door. And that's why I think
12:18
Speaker 5: the five has been so successful, frankly, because I mean,
12:22
Speaker 5: it's a whole hour and people who just know me
12:24
Speaker 5: from clips don't necessarily see what goes on in the
12:27
Speaker 5: back half of the show. where we're talking about dating
12:30
Speaker 5: trends and personal lives. And you can see that there's
12:34
Speaker 5: a genuine camaraderie and connective tissue between the hosts.
12:38
Speaker 4: And it's a.
12:39
Speaker 5: Great relief to the viewers that that exists. And we
12:43
Speaker 5: have 20 percent Democrats, 30 percent independents and 50 percent Republicans.
12:47
Speaker 5: But that's everything from MAGA to Romney Republicans. And I
12:52
Speaker 5: know from this outreach that I've gotten that they, A,
12:55
Speaker 5: wanted to know how do you do it, which is
12:57
Speaker 5: why I wrote the book, but B, that they're happy
13:01
Speaker 5: that I'm part of the table. And I feel like
13:03
Speaker 5: we've lost track of that, that actually people's lives look
13:09
Speaker 5: more like the table on the five than they do
13:11
Speaker 5: a lot of what media is. I mean, that's how
13:14
Speaker 5: we first started talking originally. We were saying it's not
13:18
Speaker 5: supposed to be this way. You're not all supposed to
13:21
Speaker 5: be a denomination of conservative or a denomination of liberal.
13:24
Speaker 5: You know, people have crazy Aunt Jessica coming to Thanksgiving or,
13:28
Speaker 5: you know, crazy Uncle Jesse.
13:30
Speaker 1: Don't you think there's a difference between Trump supporters and
13:32
Speaker 1: Trump voters?
13:36
Speaker 5: You mean the base versus people who show up on
13:38
Speaker 5: election day and say, I think he's gonna put more
13:40
Speaker 5: money in my pocket?
13:41
Speaker 6: Yes, like those people who actually bought into the stuff
13:44
Speaker 6: that he was on the campaign trail talking about. And
13:47
Speaker 6: they just went out there and said, you know what,
13:48
Speaker 6: I'm gonna go vote for Trump because I think he
13:49
Speaker 6: is gonna.
13:49
Speaker 1: Fix the economy.
13:50
Speaker 7: Yes.
13:51
Speaker 6: As opposed to being the guy you talk about with
13:52
Speaker 6: the tattoo on his face who's just like very cold like.
13:54
Speaker 5: Right, there is still the 20%, right, of the base.
13:58
Speaker 5: And I've moved that down from the 30% that it
14:00
Speaker 5: used to be. Remember from the, he could shoot someone
14:03
Speaker 5: on Fifth Avenue and no one would care. Yes.
14:05
Speaker 4: Apparently they do care.
14:06
Speaker 5: When they have less money in their pockets or their
14:08
Speaker 5: farms are going bankrupt or he said no new wars.
14:11
Speaker 5: And we're in, you know, a seven, eight month war
14:14
Speaker 5: now in Iran. So things are a bit different there.
14:17
Speaker 5: But yes, I think there's absolutely a difference. And that
14:21
Speaker 5: speaks to the growing rise of independent voters in the country.
14:24
Speaker 5: It's now the biggest block of people who identify with
14:28
Speaker 5: neither party. And they probably lean left or lean right
14:30
Speaker 5: based on certain issues, like if they care about, you know,
14:34
Speaker 5: women's reproductive rights for instance they might lean left on
14:37
Speaker 5: that or if gun culture matters to them in a
14:40
Speaker 5: certain way but people are just fed up with the
14:43
Speaker 5: system generally and i think the inability for us to
14:48
Speaker 5: talk to each other and not acquiesce i i want
14:51
Speaker 5: to make that clear because i always excuse me i
14:54
Speaker 5: have a podcast called raging moderates and people will say
14:57
Speaker 5: oh moderates like that's so mushy.
15:01
Speaker 4: No one wants that.
15:02
Speaker 5: And we have the raging in it, which is part
15:05
Speaker 5: of it because everyone's vibe right now is anger and
15:09
Speaker 5: they want to burn the system down. And I think
15:12
Speaker 5: in these conversations, some people might think, oh, you're, you know,
15:16
Speaker 5: you're telling me to go talk to these people. That
15:18
Speaker 5: means that I have to kind of like lay down
15:19
Speaker 5: and take it and acquiesce to their views, which I
15:22
Speaker 5: don't think is true at all. You have to just
15:24
Speaker 5: be modeling the a kind of discourse that people can
15:27
Speaker 5: connect to to get those voters, not a Trump supporter,
15:30
Speaker 5: but the voters who claim, you know, the ones watching
15:33
Speaker 5: you and watching Flagrant and are saying like, oh, I
15:37
Speaker 5: like 50% of what this guy says. And that might
15:41
Speaker 5: be enough for me.
15:42
Speaker 1: Most people are one issue voters, I think.
15:44
Speaker 5: Yeah, depending on the cycle. I mean, well, it's the economy, stupid.
15:47
Speaker 4: Every time.
15:48
Speaker 1: Always.
15:48
Speaker 4: Yeah.
15:49
Speaker 2: Well, what about you on the other side, right? Like
15:51
Speaker 2: you're not running for office. You are having these conversations.
15:54
Speaker 2: You talk about like grace under fire in your book.
15:56
Speaker 2: And I know like Trump has like said different things
15:59
Speaker 2: about you specifically, like not even about your takes, but
16:01
Speaker 2: about you as a person and what you do.
16:03
Speaker 5: Yeah.
16:03
Speaker 2: What's the line where you're like, I understand we got
16:06
Speaker 2: to talk across the table, but like I genuinely just
16:07
Speaker 2: don't like this person because the attacks get so personal.
16:10
Speaker 2: You just don't want to give the platform like there's
16:12
Speaker 2: no real way to a conversation with.
16:14
Speaker 3: A certain person.
16:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean.
16:16
Speaker 5: I think for everybody it's a very personal decision. I mean,
16:20
Speaker 5: I can't control what President Trump wants to say about
16:24
Speaker 5: me or anybody on TV, you know, and he watches
16:28
Speaker 5: too much television and he should be busier fundamentally is
16:31
Speaker 5: my feeling about it. But I think that there are ways,
16:36
Speaker 5: if you are going to have that conversation, if you
16:38
Speaker 5: decide that it's worthwhile to you, that you can better
16:40
Speaker 5: understand how– what they're saying about you and why they're
16:45
Speaker 5: saying it. So in the chapter where I talk about
16:48
Speaker 5: these Trump attacks, it was important to me to work
16:51
Speaker 5: on figuring out what it is that he was actually
16:54
Speaker 5: saying and how seriously I would take it. And I
16:58
Speaker 5: ended up with this tip or maxim from the book
17:02
Speaker 5: that a criticism on style is actually a win on
17:05
Speaker 5: substance so that when people can't deal with the content
17:09
Speaker 5: of what you're saying, they'll start picking on something surface
17:12
Speaker 5: and they'll say.
17:12
Speaker 4: Oh, it's her voice.
17:14
Speaker 5: Or it's her, he said, jittery presentation. And those are
17:17
Speaker 5: things that I'm self-conscious about. And he's very good at
17:20
Speaker 5: reading the room that way, which I think is why
17:23
Speaker 5: his nicknames, at least earlier on, I think they've gotten
17:26
Speaker 5: a little dull, frankly. But they always hit because they
17:29
Speaker 5: were things that people were already concerned about or that
17:33
Speaker 5: others would recognize. But when you are diving into these
17:37
Speaker 5: contentious conversations, I think being able to really parse what
17:41
Speaker 5: the criticisms mean and how important they are depending who
17:44
Speaker 5: they're coming from and how they're expressed to you is
17:48
Speaker 5: really crucial.
17:49
Speaker 6: Yeah, I saw you say when somebody interrupts you on
17:51
Speaker 6: the five, that means you take that as evidence that
17:54
Speaker 6: you're winning.
17:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, you've done a bunch of these.
17:57
Speaker 6: What other little tales are there that let you know
18:00
Speaker 6: somebody realizes like, oh, you got them?
18:04
Speaker 5: Well, definitely that An interruption is verification that you're on
18:10
Speaker 5: the right path and to keep going, but to also
18:13
Speaker 5: counter that interruption with some sort of connective tissue moment.
18:18
Speaker 5: So a little jab back or something with a bit
18:21
Speaker 5: of humor so that people can also see. And you
18:24
Speaker 5: can even feel we're actually in this together. Yeah. I
18:28
Speaker 5: already said to, you know, think in averages and not
18:31
Speaker 5: in anecdotes. I think, you know, I have a background
18:33
Speaker 5: in political polling and research.
18:35
Speaker 4: So doing, creating.
18:38
Speaker 5: Database stories is what I do. But I think that's
18:41
Speaker 5: especially important for women when you go into these hostile venues,
18:46
Speaker 5: but even in your personal life, at your job, you know,
18:49
Speaker 5: wherever it is to kind of have that armor. The
18:53
Speaker 5: soft start, which we talked about looking for what, could
18:57
Speaker 5: connect you before you bring up what could tear you
19:01
Speaker 5: apart or how you feel differently about it. Spending time
19:05
Speaker 5: in uncomfortable places I think is really important and we
19:09
Speaker 5: don't do enough of it. And it can be an
19:11
Speaker 5: easy thing right in your community or, you know, start
19:14
Speaker 5: eating at a different kind of place or, you know,
19:17
Speaker 5: who you're talking to if you're going to a sporting
19:18
Speaker 5: event or you're at a social event. I have a
19:21
Speaker 5: lot in the book about my time in college and
19:25
Speaker 5: my time in grad school and, how often I pushed
19:29
Speaker 5: myself to be uncomfortable so that I could grow from that.
19:34
Speaker 5: You know, I'm obviously prevent present as quite an extrovert
19:38
Speaker 5: and I'm on TV for a living, but my insides
19:40
Speaker 5: are very introverted. And yeah, I actually hear that with
19:45
Speaker 5: a lot of people who do comedy.
19:47
Speaker 4: That yeah that is this great release.
19:49
Speaker 7: For you right right because naturally very introverted i seem
19:53
Speaker 7: very extroverted because i know how to be that way
19:55
Speaker 7: you know we have to connect with people have to
19:57
Speaker 7: talk to people have to show a personality but really
20:00
Speaker 7: stay the fuck away from me like that's how i
20:02
Speaker 7: really am but not like bad but it's just like introvert.
20:05
Speaker 4: Yeah and need that inner peace and that space.
20:09
Speaker 7: Yes yeah to re-energize and stuff right I wanted to
20:12
Speaker 7: ask you um I like I love the subtitle winning
20:15
Speaker 7: arguments without losing friend has there ever been a time
20:18
Speaker 7: right or how often does this happen where you win
20:20
Speaker 7: an argument you lose a friend and then the friend
20:23
Speaker 7: comes back because you changed their mind or you opened
20:25
Speaker 7: up their mind I think this is inside of politics
20:28
Speaker 7: or outside.
20:29
Speaker 4: Yeah I mean I think that.
20:32
Speaker 5: Within my family so we were all denominations of Democrat,
20:37
Speaker 5: like the big fight in 2016 was Bernie versus.
20:39
Speaker 4: Hillary, was like the hill to die on.
20:42
Speaker 5: And then 2024 came around and I have an uncle,
20:46
Speaker 5: we're Jewish, who's particularly religious and voted for Trump because
20:50
Speaker 5: he thought he'd be better for Israel.
20:51
Speaker 1: Well, happy new year. Oh, thank you.
20:53
Speaker 4: Shana Tova.
20:53
Speaker 6: I was going to say that, but I didn't know
20:56
Speaker 6: how to pronounce it.
20:57
Speaker 4: Well, there you go.
20:59
Speaker 1: I've been texting it to my friends, I don't know
21:00
Speaker 1: how to pronounce it.
21:01
Speaker 4: Shana Tova. Yeah, you can do it for your next guest.
21:03
Speaker 2: Okay.
21:03
Speaker 4: You should greet everyone like that. It's a.
21:06
Speaker 5: I mean, probably not everyone, but yes. But I was
21:13
Speaker 5: so frustrated with him because I felt like you're picking
21:19
Speaker 5: this one thing when there's a whole host of other
21:22
Speaker 5: issues that matter to you a lot. I mean, as
21:27
Speaker 5: someone who worked in the uh, NGO world, you know,
21:30
Speaker 5: focused on helping homeless people knows how important these services
21:35
Speaker 5: are for vulnerable people. And like, they're cutting, like the
21:38
Speaker 5: plan is to cut everything. And he, he went out
21:42
Speaker 5: and did it and we're still, you know, very close.
21:47
Speaker 5: And he's kind of been trickling in little bits of discontent, like, Oh,
21:52
Speaker 5: you know, this kind of surprised me or, you know, this,
21:55
Speaker 5: this seems bad and making space. for him to puzzle
22:01
Speaker 5: it out himself without me saying like, I told you so,
22:06
Speaker 5: or I can't believe you did this and has been
22:10
Speaker 5: very helpful. And one of the lessons, like the tips
22:14
Speaker 5: in there is to know when to talk and to
22:16
Speaker 5: know when to listen. And there's an anecdote in there
22:22
Speaker 5: about going on air right after Charlie Kirk was assassinated. And,
22:28
Speaker 5: realizing that there was basically nothing that I could say
22:32
Speaker 5: that would meet the moment of how tragic and harrowing
22:39
Speaker 5: and unfair what happened to Charlie was, no matter what
22:43
Speaker 5: you thought of Charlie's content. And so I worked really
22:48
Speaker 5: hard that day. to figure out what to say to
22:52
Speaker 5: both balance the fact that I knew Charlie. I wasn't
22:54
Speaker 5: that close with him, but I'd seen him just a
22:55
Speaker 5: month before and had talked to him about we had
22:58
Speaker 5: kids about the same age and what's it like living
23:01
Speaker 5: in Arizona. And he was so excited for me. It
23:04
Speaker 5: was the morning that I was going to have Hillary
23:07
Speaker 5: Clinton on my podcast, which was a big deal for
23:10
Speaker 5: me and one of my idols. And he was so
23:14
Speaker 5: excited for me and said, I remember from the 2016 election,
23:18
Speaker 5: you used to wear this Hillary Clinton novelty watch. You know,
23:21
Speaker 5: I was so in it, like we're going to, you know,
23:23
Speaker 5: bust the glass ceiling and here's my woman card. Deal
23:26
Speaker 5: me in and all, you know, all the stuff that
23:28
Speaker 5: led to a lot of tears. Anyway, just this lovely interaction.
23:32
Speaker 5: And so I'm plotting out what I'm going to say
23:34
Speaker 5: on air that day. And that I want to make
23:36
Speaker 5: sure that the viewers and my co-hosts know that I
23:39
Speaker 5: knew Charlie was a good guy. I didn't agree with
23:41
Speaker 5: his politics, but I knew who I knew who his
23:44
Speaker 5: soul was. And then I also wanted to make sure
23:47
Speaker 5: that I talked about who actually perpetrates the majority of
23:51
Speaker 5: political violence in the country, because Trump had already come
23:54
Speaker 5: out and said that we're at war. And they're going
23:58
Speaker 5: to kill us. And this is the new frontier. And
24:00
Speaker 5: this is what's going to happen. And there had been
24:02
Speaker 5: a rise in left wing violence. Like, remember the Molotov
24:05
Speaker 5: cocktails on the Teslas?
24:07
Speaker 1: But nothing like white male conservatives.
24:09
Speaker 4: No, but that was my point.
24:11
Speaker 5: And I cited a lot of data because I think
24:13
Speaker 5: in those averages and not the anecdotes and, you know,
24:17
Speaker 5: talked about data from the government itself, because that's the
24:20
Speaker 5: safest place to go to be like, it's your, you know,
24:22
Speaker 5: you guys are in charge now.
24:24
Speaker 4: And.
24:26
Speaker 5: It just didn't hack it. There, you know, huge emotional response,
24:30
Speaker 5: very personal and understandable because I was talking to Greg
24:36
Speaker 5: Gutfeld about this because he was having an emotional reaction
24:40
Speaker 5: to the fact that his friend was murdered in broad
24:42
Speaker 5: daylight for just sitting there trying to have a conversation
24:44
Speaker 5: with people. And so knowing that there are some fights
24:49
Speaker 5: that are just not worth having. made a huge difference.
24:52
Speaker 5: And I think for him also, he realized that he
24:55
Speaker 5: had been personalizing it and he apologized on air for that,
24:59
Speaker 5: where he was like, this isn't you. It's just that
25:01
Speaker 5: this is so personal and it's so hard. And that
25:05
Speaker 5: has direct carryover to our real lives. You know, you
25:08
Speaker 5: guys know that from anyone who means something to you.
25:10
Speaker 5: They're going through something. It's not the time to pile
25:14
Speaker 5: on with here, you know, 10 studies that show that
25:17
Speaker 5: this was predictable or, you know, and I think if
25:20
Speaker 5: you want to win elections, which I fundamentally do, I
25:23
Speaker 5: don't work for the Democratic Party, but I think that
25:26
Speaker 5: we have better outcomes when Democrats are in power. You
25:29
Speaker 5: have to make room for people to come back in.
25:33
Speaker 5: We talk a lot about this big tent, but it
25:35
Speaker 5: could get even bigger if you get back these voters
25:38
Speaker 5: from 2024 who casually supported him.
25:41
Speaker 6: I want to stay on the database argument for a second,
25:43
Speaker 6: but you're right because people don't realize when Democrats are
25:45
Speaker 6: in the White House, the economy does better.
25:47
Speaker 1: Why they're not able to sell that, I have no idea.
25:50
Speaker 5: Because it feels, I feel like there's just a huge
25:54
Speaker 5: communication problem and like a style of messenger problem. Because
25:59
Speaker 5: if you ask anybody what they thought of the 90s,
26:02
Speaker 5: they all loved it. Like Democrats and Republicans, the economy
26:06
Speaker 5: was booming. And you had a president that was willing
26:10
Speaker 5: to work across the aisle. You had Doge actually done right.
26:14
Speaker 5: And there were some bad things, obviously, out of the
26:17
Speaker 5: Clinton years. And we've reevaluated on criminal justice and don't ask,
26:21
Speaker 5: don't tell and things like that. But it always feels
26:25
Speaker 5: like a lecture when Democrats say it. Like, I remember
26:28
Speaker 5: going into the 2024 election. I thought, oh, my God,
26:32
Speaker 5: you know, they're campaigning in bumper stickers, which is what
26:36
Speaker 5: people like. They're saying no tax on tips. And we're saying,
26:39
Speaker 5: you know, fastest recovery in the G7.
26:42
Speaker 4: Like, who cares? And it hasn't gotten any better.
26:46
Speaker 5: And I feel like Democratic leadership sometimes gets annoyed at
26:48
Speaker 5: me because I just talk about it incessantly.
26:51
Speaker 4: Like, what are the three policies? What are you going
26:53
Speaker 4: to do?
26:53
Speaker 5: Are you going to build 10 million affordable housing units?
26:56
Speaker 5: That seems like a good idea. Are you going to
26:59
Speaker 5: how are you going to reform Obamacare? It's not enough
27:01
Speaker 5: to just say you'll get your subsidy back. It's kind
27:04
Speaker 5: of a bad situation that we needed the subsidies in
27:06
Speaker 5: the first place, you know, and we don't get any
27:09
Speaker 5: of that from leadership.
27:12
Speaker 6: So. Another thing that Dems do wrong, and that's why
27:14
Speaker 6: I want to stay on the database argument thing, because
27:16
Speaker 6: I find that so fascinating, because I often wonder, does
27:20
Speaker 6: data beat real world lived experience?
27:23
Speaker 1: Like, I see that comes up a lot when we're
27:24
Speaker 1: talking about crime, right?
27:26
Speaker 6: They'll say data may show crime going down in the city,
27:29
Speaker 6: but the people who.
27:30
Speaker 1: Live there may not feel like it.
27:33
Speaker 6: So give me an example of a political argument where
27:35
Speaker 6: the numbers might have been on your side, but you
27:38
Speaker 6: realized the other person was emotionally right.
27:41
Speaker 5: Crime and policing is the top one, and that is
27:44
Speaker 5: right now the only issue that Republicans are still leading on.
27:47
Speaker 5: Because no matter, you know, the huge drop in the
27:50
Speaker 5: murder rate, and we had the fewest murders this summer
27:55
Speaker 5: in New York City that we've had in decades. And
27:58
Speaker 5: Mom Donnie does all the right things in terms of
28:00
Speaker 5: standing shoulder to shoulder with Jessica Tisch and saying, like,
28:04
Speaker 5: You know, I might be a big lefty, progressive in
28:06
Speaker 5: all these ways, but I know how important it is
28:08
Speaker 5: to keep the city safe and get people off the streets.
28:12
Speaker 5: It's something that you feel, and it's also something that,
28:15
Speaker 5: depending on the media that you listen to, that you.
28:18
Speaker 4: Ingest that way.
28:19
Speaker 5: Because a lot of the people who have such, you know,
28:24
Speaker 5: solid opinions about these things don't live anywhere near a
28:27
Speaker 5: CVS with your deodorant locked up, right? They live in
28:31
Speaker 5: the middle of the country or... You know, wherever people
28:34
Speaker 5: abroad who are talking about what a shithole it is.
28:37
Speaker 5: And then they come for the World Cup and they're like, oh,
28:39
Speaker 5: my God, this is actually amazing. Or remember how all
28:42
Speaker 5: of the conservative sports commentators when they went to San
28:47
Speaker 5: Francisco for the Super Bowl and Pat McAfee and that
28:52
Speaker 5: whole crew were like, oh, my God, the city is incredible.
28:55
Speaker 5: And you think this has been the power of the
28:58
Speaker 5: way people talk about what's going on that you think.
29:02
Speaker 5: that you're going to be stepping over a homeless person
29:04
Speaker 5: left and right. And Dan Lurie, the mayor there, has
29:06
Speaker 5: done a lot to clean up. And obviously, everyone is
29:09
Speaker 5: on your best behavior when you're hosting a big event
29:12
Speaker 5: like that.
29:12
Speaker 4: I know. Exactly.
29:14
Speaker 1: And then they go right back to regularly scheduled programming
29:15
Speaker 1: when everybody leaves.
29:17
Speaker 5: I'd say half of the regularly scheduled program. I think
29:20
Speaker 5: that a lot of progress has been made. But again,
29:23
Speaker 5: that is not sellable to people. Another issue where I
29:27
Speaker 5: think the data versus the lived reality is really hard
29:31
Speaker 5: to balance for people is on immigration. And I've gotten
29:36
Speaker 5: really important insight and a different perspective on it from
29:39
Speaker 5: working in a conservative media environment. You know, while the
29:44
Speaker 5: Biden administration was saying nothing's wrong on the border, the
29:48
Speaker 5: border is effectively closed, Fox had a drone flying over
29:53
Speaker 5: the border that was showing, you know, tens of thousands
29:56
Speaker 5: of people, and at peak, a couple hundred thousand people
29:59
Speaker 5: streaming across the border in a month. And I was gobsmacked,
30:05
Speaker 5: not only by the reality of what was going on
30:06
Speaker 5: and how unfair it was that I was sitting here
30:09
Speaker 5: in an air-conditioned studio in New York City telling people
30:12
Speaker 5: in Eagle Pass to suck it up, but that the
30:15
Speaker 5: administration had no answer for it. And they got it
30:19
Speaker 5: together in the last year, I think, because elections, frankly,
30:23
Speaker 5: were coming and they thought we need to do something
30:24
Speaker 5: about this. But finding a way to talk about a
30:29
Speaker 5: humane system and an asylum system that works and making
30:33
Speaker 5: sure that you're not picking up people, innocent people on
30:36
Speaker 5: the streets, which is how immigration enforcement is happening, while
30:39
Speaker 5: also making it clear that it is a good thing
30:41
Speaker 5: that our border is closed or that blue city mayors
30:45
Speaker 5: and blue state governors need to cooperate with ICE vis-a-vis
30:50
Speaker 5: getting criminals out of this country. Because when the opposition
30:54
Speaker 5: is just abolish ICE, people turn off to that because
31:00
Speaker 5: you say there are these young Americans, mostly women, like
31:03
Speaker 5: a Sheridan Gorman, who's from New York but got killed
31:07
Speaker 5: in Chicago, or a Lakin Riley, conservatives know all their names.
31:11
Speaker 5: And they're saying, well, why don't you give a fuck
31:14
Speaker 5: about this? Right?
31:16
Speaker 4: So I get it.
31:16
Speaker 5: You don't want someone who's been here for 30 years
31:20
Speaker 5: and is a day worker to get picked up at
31:22
Speaker 5: Home Depot. But if you act like this doesn't matter,
31:25
Speaker 5: even if it is one instance, it emotionally, it hits
31:30
Speaker 5: you really hard.
31:31
Speaker 2: Definitely.
31:32
Speaker 6: This is my last question. I really want you to
31:34
Speaker 6: think about this one. What's harder for you personally? Admitting
31:38
Speaker 6: to Jesse Waters that he's right or admitting to yourself
31:41
Speaker 6: that he's right?
31:43
Speaker 4: Like the internal dialogue?
31:45
Speaker 5: Yes.
31:45
Speaker 1: Like having to admit to him personally.
31:47
Speaker 4: That you are admitting to yourself.
31:50
Speaker 5: Luckily, it so rarely happens that I don't have to.
31:55
Speaker 5: The out loud concession is a big one. And I
31:58
Speaker 5: think it relates, especially on these kinds of mediums, because
32:02
Speaker 5: it feels so personal and private right now, but. The
32:06
Speaker 5: camera right there. There are millions of people that are listening.
32:10
Speaker 5: And I think about that on the five because there
32:12
Speaker 5: are about 10 people in the studio and then there
32:14
Speaker 5: are four million people that are watching it. But I
32:17
Speaker 5: think this connects directly to where we started with the
32:21
Speaker 5: fact that conservatives don't take it as seriously as liberals do.
32:26
Speaker 5: So they can admit all the time that you have
32:29
Speaker 5: a point like we are having this big back and
32:31
Speaker 5: forth about the Save America Act. And I was so
32:33
Speaker 5: frustrated that. Because they kept saying, oh, it's a voter I.D. bill.
32:37
Speaker 4: It's a voter I.D.
32:38
Speaker 5: Bill.
32:38
Speaker 4: And I was it's not a voter I.D.
32:40
Speaker 1: Bill.
32:41
Speaker 4: Put a voter I.D.
32:41
Speaker 5: Bill on the floor and then you can demonize Democrats
32:46
Speaker 5: till the sun comes down if they don't vote for that.
32:49
Speaker 5: But this is a bill where you're going to show
32:51
Speaker 5: your passport or your birth certificate to be able to vote.
32:53
Speaker 5: And you know who it's going to disenfranchise? Largely conservative voters.
32:57
Speaker 5: More Democrats have passports. anyone who went through the foster
33:01
Speaker 5: care system who was adopted, no birth certificate. And I
33:05
Speaker 5: told this story about going to the DMV three times
33:09
Speaker 5: during my second maternity leave to get my real ID.
33:12
Speaker 5: Remember when they said they were actually going to enforce it.
33:15
Speaker 5: And I have two middle names. I'm really getting weedsy
33:18
Speaker 5: about this, but none of my identification matched because some
33:23
Speaker 5: had one middle name, some had no middle names. And
33:26
Speaker 5: I had the time and the means to have a
33:29
Speaker 5: nanny to stay with my kids so that I could
33:31
Speaker 5: go do this. And I said, how many people are
33:34
Speaker 5: going to do this?
33:35
Speaker 6: Right.
33:35
Speaker 1: Right.
33:35
Speaker 5: They're, they're just not going to vote. And kids who
33:39
Speaker 5: are away at college, they show up, they're pumped. They're
33:41
Speaker 5: going to university of Wisconsin at Madison, or they're going
33:44
Speaker 5: to a conservative, you know, going to Liberty university, whatever.
33:47
Speaker 5: Are they coming with their birth certificate? No, that's just
33:50
Speaker 5: not what's going to happen. And so I'm making that case.
33:54
Speaker 5: And Jesse is like, is that true? You know, he
33:58
Speaker 5: just didn't he thought it was a regular voter ID bill.
34:01
Speaker 5: And I said, yeah, it's absolutely true. And then he
34:05
Speaker 5: basically said, oh, that that's messed up, you know, and
34:08
Speaker 5: that's not something that I would feel good about doing
34:12
Speaker 5: because it's also one on four. So I feel like
34:15
Speaker 5: I have a little bit of the weight of the
34:16
Speaker 5: world on my shoulders. But it was an affirmation of
34:19
Speaker 5: the fact that, again, politics is in everything to them.
34:23
Speaker 5: And you know that you're also gonna get another swing
34:25
Speaker 5: the next day, right? You're gonna come back and you're
34:27
Speaker 5: gonna talk about more stuff. And I wanna get better
34:32
Speaker 5: at not taking it as seriously while still being able
34:35
Speaker 5: to convey how important politics is and how much it
34:40
Speaker 5: affects your daily life from the local level up to
34:43
Speaker 5: the national level. I don't wanna lose that, but I
34:45
Speaker 5: do desperately want people to feel braver and stronger in
34:51
Speaker 5: these conversations. And it just seems that people feel ill-equipped
34:57
Speaker 5: to be able to express themselves in a way that
35:00
Speaker 5: could even open someone's mind to a different point of
35:04
Speaker 5: view or way of looking at the world.
35:06
Speaker 6: Well, go get the book, I Disagree, Winning Arguments Without
35:09
Speaker 6: Losing Friends. It's available everywhere you buy books now?
35:11
Speaker 1: That's right.
35:12
Speaker 5: Yeah, it adds up today. Thank you guys so much.
35:16
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm never going to look like that again.
35:19
Speaker 4: Why? I mean, like, that's a really good picture. That
35:22
Speaker 4: was glam.
35:23
Speaker 6: Yeah.
35:23
Speaker 4: You look fine now.
35:24
Speaker 1: You look the same right now.
35:25
Speaker 2: You look the same.
35:26
Speaker 4: Your hair's a little shorter.
35:27
Speaker 1: Your hair's a little shorter, but you're giving today.
35:29
Speaker 4: All right. Great. So I look like that every day.
35:32
Speaker 5: Yes.
35:33
Speaker 4: Go buy the book.
35:34
Speaker 1: Thank you, guys.
35:34
Speaker 7: Thanks, guys.
35:36
Speaker 3: It's Jessica Tarlow.
35:37
Speaker 1: It's The Breakfast Club. Good morning.