Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "Is Israel Doomed?" with Chloe Valdary

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"Is Israel Doomed?" with Chloe Valdary · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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G'day humans! Welcome to the show that goes where other shows dare not tread.
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The show that rejects partisanship and tribalism. I'm Josh Zeps, your humble interrogator,
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your humble interlocutor and each week. I hunt down the world's most interesting people
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to wrestle with questions that normally get everyone in a huff. Because so much of modern culture
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politics and media, especially social media, panders to what you already believe and
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distorts what you don't already believe. It reinforces what you're comfortable thinking about.
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This is not the show for that. We know that change doesn't happen inside echo chambers,
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so step out of the comfort zone, flex your mind, tread on some landmines and have some uncomfortable
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conversations. This week on the show, hallelujah, we have a ceasefire in Gaza, apparently,
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supposedly. For now, while I'm looking at my watch, maybe not by the time you hear this,
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I hope so. After 10 days of bloodshed between Israel and Hamas, there is at least a new mini-change
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chapter of peace in the overall context of hardship, warfare and bloodshed in that corner of the
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world. And so I wanted to bring you one of the best conversations I've ever had about how we think
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about Israel. This is a couple of years old now, but it's as true as it has ever been and
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as interesting as it has ever been because the overarching themes of Israel and Palestine
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are unchanged. Regardless of who started what and which skirmish and who did what,
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niece Jerusalem and when did go and did Hamas fire what rockets and all of that tit for tat,
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all of that is irrelevant fundamentally. What this conversation is about is what it means to judge
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a nation, what it means to aspire towards self-determination, and how you can adjudicate competing
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rights, competing legitimate rights. You probably already have your own opinions about Israel
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and about Palestine. There is no chance that I'm going to convince you one way or another.
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And to be honest, I don't have a strong opinion one way or another because I can fully
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appreciate and understand the perspective of both sides, which is something that I want to do on
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this show. And so this conversation is with someone named Chloe Valdery. Chloe is essentially
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an anti-racism trainer in the United States. She has come up with a concept called compassionate
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anti-racism, which is guided by the principles of Martin Luther King, combines developmental
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psychology with pop culture and really positions her theory of anti-racism on a basis of understanding
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and humility and vulnerability and self-acceptance in contrast to what she sees as the
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rather negative and simplistic versions of anti-racism that have become popular of late
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in the United States. Chloe spent a year as a Bartley Fellow at the Wall Street Journal.
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She's lectured at Harvard. She's written in the New York Times. Her TED talk called How Love
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Can Help Repair Social Inequality Has Nearly Two Million Views. And she has an article out now
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in the current edition of Newsweek entitled Black People Are Far More Powerful Than Critical Race
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Theory Preachers. We get to a little bit of that at the end of this conversation, but I want to
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bring you the bulk of it to really help you think about engaging with the Middle East in a new way
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with fresh artists. Please enjoy this old conversation which is more relevant now than it ever
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has been with Chloe Valdez.
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One of the things that I have enjoyed observing about you is not just that you're
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articulate and clear-headed, but that in this era where identity politics is so pronounced,
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like you would expect that a person's Jewish heritage or Muslim faith or Arab ethnicity or African
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American identity would dictate how they think about geopolitics. And you cut against that
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cliche, not just by sounding not like a black civil rights activist, but also not siding with
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the Palestinians in the Israeli-Palestinian battle, or rather I might just say not always
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assuming that Israel is the moral monster and the aggressor. And I have problems with this as
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well because as someone who's Jewish, who's ethnically Jewish, myself I hold Israel to a much
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highest-ended than I do of terrorist groups. I think I just sort of take it for granted that
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terrorist groups are shitheads. And I expect the democratic Western countries or to behave better
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than that. So I get annoyed when there's a false equivalence of saying like, oh, but you're not
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talking about how bad Hamas was. Well, yeah, that's because I take it as a given that Hamas is
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shitheads. That's why I'm critical of Netanyahu and the intransigence on the Israeli side.
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So I didn't mean to dive into Israel so soon, but you can take, I'll give you an A or B. You can
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either go straight to how do we resolve the obsession with identity politics in the states,
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or you can go to why I'm wrong to be uncomfortable with Israel. Take your pick.
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Well, there's an interesting, I'm thinking about this live right now. So there's an interesting
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thread between the identity politics that oftentimes dictates how the Israeli-Palestinian
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conflict is discussed. And of course, identity politics that is sort of becoming more
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invoked in American domestic politics. There's an interesting psychology that underpins both
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of those situations, I think. When it comes to zooming out, like discussing Israeli-Palestinian
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conflict apart from identity politics or aside from identity politics, I don't think there's
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anything wrong with being critical of the BB Netanyahu government or not being critical for
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whatever reasons that you want to hold. I think being critical of BB's government, though,
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is separate from perhaps one's viewpoint on Hamas or just being very clear or being very aware
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rather that Hamas is playing a very long-term PR game on social media and just being aware of that,
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that that is the context in which you were walking in. When certain things happen in the military
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landscape, there are other things happening in the social media landscape that Hamas is very
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deliberately toying with and exploiting. Can you sumpec that and articulate it a bit for people
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who don't really follow it? If you were to follow Hamas's Twitter page or things of that nature,
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you know, Hamas is notorious for using human shields and they use human shields not just because
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it's effective from a military perspective because Israel is unwilling to use human shields,
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but also it's effective from a social media perspective because if you see more and more
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obviously Palestinian civilians murdered or killed rather, then Hamas can essentially exploit
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you the audience's compassion and use that to direct attention to what Israel is doing
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as opposed to what Hamas is doing putting them in the line of fire in the first place. So that's
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just like a trick, a cute trick that Hamas uses, which has been amplified because of our
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increasingly digital way of communicating with each other and because of the way social media
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works, rewarding clickbait material that doesn't really allow for nuance and again that deep
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complex conversation. So I think it's important to be aware of that once you're when you're talking
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about skirmishes between Hamas and the Israeli military, but I think that the criticizing the
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BB government is a separate issue and I think you can criticize that leisure. I might disagree with
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your criticism, but I think that's a separate issue from from the Hamas situation. So what would
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your position be about Israel if you had to summarize it? Israel's cool. I like Israel. It's just
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pretty dope. No, so I'm, you know, I'm a Zionist. I think a lot of I'm a Zionist. And look for my own
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personal reasons. I'm very much fascinated by Israeli society. I'm actually I'm a brand ambassador
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for a media company called Jerusalem you, which is based in Jerusalem and right now I'm working on
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a YouTube series about identity in Israeli society because I actually think it's quite fascinating
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and complex. And the way identity works in Israeli society is very different from the way it works
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in American society. And we're creating this series related to empower young Jews to be able to
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explore in the diaspora in North America to be able to explore their own Jewish identity looking
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through the lens and paradigm of Israeli society. And I think that there's even such interesting
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things that we as Americans both do well. You're not you're not sure. But both we as Americans
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both Jews and non Jews can learn from certain trends in Israeli society and certain different
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aspects of identity. For example, just just to give a quick shameless plug. I'm doing an episode on
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the Jewish community, which is a fascinating community in Israeli society. The Jewish community
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is a minority. Their most their religious community, their most revered prophet is Jethro
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for those of you who aren't familiar with that. Jethro was considered to be the father of Moses.
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So the Jews feel an incredible sense of loyalty to the Jewish people and they actually
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enroll in the military at a higher rate than that of the Jews in Israel. Something like 85%.
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And in this episode, I'm interested in unpacking the question of what does the concept of loyalty
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mean? What does it mean to be loyal to your fellow citizen, your fellow neighbor? And it's
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especially interesting because we in our very polarized time right now in America call ourselves
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the United States of America. But what does it actually mean to be united and loyal to and have
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a feeling of obligation to your fellow citizen, regardless of, you know, his or her personal,
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political background or religion or skin color, etc. Like what does that concept of loyalty
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and again, obligation to what another actually mean and what can we learn from the Jews
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to apply in our own society to perhaps maybe heal the wounds that are festering in our own
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society right now. And that is a great segue to.
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I don't want to leave Israel yet though now that you brought it up because there are a few
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interesting things. Firstly, it could one of the reasons why the Jews and for people who don't
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know the Jews, they are a fascinating people, the DRU, ZE or ZE. One of the reasons why they might
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enroll in the military more than Jews is because the Orthodox don't serve, right? Yes, correct.
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Which is a weird little kind of escape. Get out of jail free card, depending on how
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how how religiously delusional you are and I say religiously delusional against all faiths,
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not necessarily just Jews. So that's interesting that you're talking about how do you all come
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together under one identity because one of the interesting things about America when a foreigner
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moves there, even a foreigner from a new world country like Australia, which has a similar kind
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version of what I'm about to describe is that when you come to America, you subscribe to a set of
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conditions and credos that make you American. And it doesn't matter where you're from or what your
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faith is, there is a unifying force behind the, I suppose, the doctrine of America. And Australia has
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its own versions of that, things we call makeship. And I suppose in a egalitarian streak that's a
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little bit more kind of casual and laid back and cynical and sticking it to the brits, then maybe
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America is a bit more suspicious of pomp and ceremony. But that's something into which all of our
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migrant communities get folded. If you have a country whose identity is based around an ethnicity
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slash religion, doesn't that make it more difficult for other identities to be incorporated into
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that country and speaking of Israel? Like why can I go and move to Israel because of my Jewish heritage
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but someone else who, but you, presumably, can't do so as easily because you don't have Jewish
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extraction. Well, I think it's in some ways it's there's definitely a greater tension, right?
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Israel's a nation's day at an ethnic democracy, whereas America is not. It's a two competing,
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or it's a different conception of a political order. But I think actually there are European
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countries that come close to that. I mean, in Denmark, Denmark passed the policy where they're
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basically, I mean, this is arguably less intense than what Israel does in terms of becoming socialized
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into the country. Denmark is forcing immigrant children to learn about certain Christian holidays,
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even though Denmark is ostensibly a pretty secular nation. Immigrant children are forced to learn
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about Christmas and Easter. And if I were to move to Israel with kids, my kids would not be forced
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to learn about things like Russia, so now I'm going to pour in things of that nature. So,
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so certain extent, yes, I mean, I would say on the surface and even not on the surface,
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there are different tensions that have to be navigated if you were a non-Jew moving into
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and being integrated into Israeli society. There will always be a tension between the majority
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of minority communities, and that tension has to be navigated. And I think prime ministers in
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the past perhaps have navigated it a little bit more efficiently than the current one is, but
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that's the understatement of the year on this podcast. But at the same time, you know, again,
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you're a lot of European countries, you know, the Queen of England is considered to be also the head
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of the church in England. And there are countries in Europe that do have a distinct religious
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character about them, even though we sort of like to forget about that in 2018.
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The, let's get straight to the kind of the original scene, I suppose, of modern Israel,
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which is the post-1967 borders and the occupation. Do you, have you seen that movie where they
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interview all of the former heads of Mossad about the occupation? Do you know, it's, I'm, my brain
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I know what movie you're talking though. I haven't seen it because it came out when I was in college.
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I know what you're talking about. It's an amazing, amazing film where
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all of the, every single former head of Israel's security agency basically recounts their experience
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in the late 60s and says, but we just sort of blundered in because we could. And we all just
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assumed that this was going to be a temporary state of affairs, but we all understood that it
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would be catastrophic in the long term to Israel's survival. If it didn't bend over backwards to
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find a way to eventually relinquish these lands back to, to, to the Palestinians in some way,
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shape, or form, and we knew that wasn't going to be easy, but we just sort of assumed it would
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happen. And then time just kept rolling on and the calendar just got went on and on and on,
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and there were missed opportunities on both sides and horrible intransigence on the Palestinian
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side, but also very frequently a lack of vision and generosity on the Israeli side. And now,
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fast forward to where there is just a permanent intransigent stalemate, essentially. So I take
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your point about hummus being really good at manipulating, plucking the heartstrings and fostering
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a sort of leading heart, woolly headed leftist sympathy for Palestinians, especially among the left
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in countries like the UK and Australia, even more so, I think, than in the States. But at the same
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time, you know, my country of Australia has a fundamental sin, which was the invasion and genocide
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of the indigenous people here that it's trying to reconcile itself with. America has slavery,
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not to mention the fact of its relationship with its native people. And Israel has this thing that
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it strikes me it's not trying very hard and hasn't been trying very hard for decades to try to
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reconcile itself with, which is that it's got over a million people living in squalid refugee
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camps in, and it expects this to continue in perpetuity. And there's no serious attempt. Now,
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we can also flip back and say, well, what are the Palestinians doing? But there's no serious
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attempt. It strikes me from the Israeli, from the powerful people in Israel to reckon with this.
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Okay. I have so much to say about this. So, go with me. So the first thing I have to get out of
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the way is I have to say, I don't think it's fair to make the comparison between America's
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history of slavery, Australia's history of genocide with the indigenous population and what's
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going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I think actually the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
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is closer to, I would compare it to two Native American tribes fighting each other as opposed to
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a colonialist tribe oppressing a native tribe, especially just because of the history of
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basic yearning on the part of the Jewish people to return to Israel. It's a different dynamic,
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and it's a different dynamic in terms of ideology. That's a different dynamic on the ground. That's
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number one. Number two, I'd say that there are a couple books that if your audience members are
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interested, should read about this topic. The first is called, like, Dreamers,
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Biosi Klein-Halevi, which is really about the different, the different soldiers and where they are
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on the political spectrum who ended up reuniting Jerusalem after the Six-Day War and the after,
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the after the Six-Day War. I would also encourage people to read Gold of My Year's biography,
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Lioness, which just came out a few months ago by Francine Claques-Burnsch. It gives interesting insight
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into how politics works or has worked historically in Israeli society. Now, I bring all this up because
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I think that there is a facade happening with regard to the perception that Israel isn't doing
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things, hasn't done things to really try to make the stalemate as you correctly pointed out,
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better and alleviate certain things with regard to better ring Palestinians lives. I also would like
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to say that I think that a lot of the speaking on behalf of Palestinians or the name Palestinians on
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the part of certain European politicians as of late is a false compassion because there are things
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that can be done and have been done actually by the Israeli government that reflect the true
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compassion that don't get headlines in the news. For example, earlier this year, the Israeli
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government actually passed the bill in the Knesset. I can send you a link to this.
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Essentially saying that they wanted to invest about, I think it was a billion dollars
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with the help of the international community in Gaza. And I think that if you were to look at
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different papers coming out of the echelons of the Israeli government, different policy papers,
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this is something that a lot of politicians in Israel and a lot of policymakers have been
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discussing over the past six months about trying to alleviate a little bit of the blockade for
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Gazans, trying to build seaports in Gaza to alleviate some of the hardships in terms of the
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economy, the realization that it is not good for the Israeli people that the Gaza economy should
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collapse. So they actually have the blockade. It's fairly late isn't it Chloe? It's more than a
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decade since they pulled out of Gaza and the blockade has been so condemned by so many groups as
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being arbitrary with restrictions on medical supplies needlessly, the restrictions change month to
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month. It's obvious that it is punitive not just from a national security point of view,
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the extent to which Gaz was blockaded. It's a way of punishing Palestinians for having voted for Hamas.
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Well, I think that there has been throughout the current government different iterations of
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actual policies being passed to consider trying to alleviate certain things in Gaza. I don't
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think the blockade is completely arbitrary. I think that what Israel is dealing with right now is
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the challenge of coming to the realization that no, it is not good that the Gaza economy should
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collapse. In fact, it is objectively good that the people of Gaza should be invested in,
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but how do you do that without ensuring that Hamas doesn't exploit that and use that essentially,
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it's to generate more hostile attack against Israeli citizens. That is a serious challenge that I
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don't think can be simply dismissed by, you know. No, that's true. Look, let's say that I would agree
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with you that perhaps in the past, certainly the Israeli government could have done more to alleviate
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the problems that Gaza people were experiencing. Well, all I'm saying is that they're doing things now
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and so I don't think it's fair to act as if they're not doing things. When you say that Western
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politicians have their kind of empathy is phony, what do you think is motivating it?
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Well, it depends on the politician. I think that there are some politicians who mean well,
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who actually think that some of the policies that they're promoting would help Gaza's. I think
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that there are other politicians, for example, Corbin, who are anti-Semites and who are
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simply anti-Semites. This is the British Labour leader, the opposition leader in the UK.
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Yeah, who seems to have an extremely undue empathy towards Zionism, which he often uses as a
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code word for, obviously, Jewish. He talks about British Zionists, which can only really make one
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thing choose. Right. I mean, it's sort of difficult to claim that you're not, you don't mean Jews
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when you're talking about a philosophy that the majority of Jews believe in and identify with.
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So in his case, I think it's a very dark and disturbing
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antipathy. In the case of other politicians, it just depends. They could be coming from a place
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of ignorance. I mean, I don't think most pro-Israel people quite frankly know about the stuff that
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the Israeli government has taken to try to invest more in Gaza's civil society. So it wouldn't
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surprise me. That's not a talking point, by the way. That's set a lot in pro-Israel circles. So it
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wouldn't surprise me if people who are critical of Israel or almost anti-Israel wouldn't know about
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just the things happening behind the scenes in the Knesset. Isn't that all just happening, though,
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over that that doesn't really get to the core of my of the critique that I that in my rambling and
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incoherent way I was trying to articulate, which is yes, I'm sure that Israel is trying to do its
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best to grapple with a shitty situation. I'm also sure that there seem to be lots of people on the
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right in Israel who don't give a fuck about what happens to the Palestinians and think that they've
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brought it upon that. That is true. And all of this, regardless of that, is just a thin layer of
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ice over a gigantic steaming shit-turd of a situation. And I don't think you've addressed the
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question of whether or not like putting Gaza aside and just going back to the decades and decades
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prior to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza when it was trying to deal with the Palestinian authority
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and looking at the West Bank as well and building the wall and making life intolerable for Palestinians
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to be able to cross into Israel or even carving out bits of the West Bank. So it's so difficult
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for them to get from one town to another splitting farmers off from their water supply,
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splitting farmers off from towns. Like there's just it just seems that there's been if not a persistent
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effort to make life shitty, then at least a persistent negligence in attempting to make life
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good for Palestinians. And certainly a persistent reluctance to seriously engage or give up any
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skin in the game to find a solution in the long term. Like what's the big picture? What's the
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big picture end game here? Because I only see a big picture end game of Israel ceasing to be
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Israel or ceasing to be Jewish because eventually there's going to have to be some kind of reckoning.
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I don't think this is sustainable for centuries. Well I think that the way you've characterized the
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historical record is not accurate. I mean there have clearly been a series of negotiations in which
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Israel has offered up land for peace in which the Palestinian political representatives have
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walked away. And I think it's I mean that's just that's just clear. And that's also been
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clear on the part of you know the US sort of the US individuals who were involved in those
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negotiations including you know Bill Clinton who famously said that the reason for the failure
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of peace talks was for example when Yasser Erafat walked away from everything I mean the Israeli
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Prime Minister essentially offered him everything everything he wanted and he walked away. So I do
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think there's been a clear. Well there were some just to caveat. There were some there were some
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disagreements about East Jerusalem and about the right of return and things like that. And I think
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Erafat was walking away thinking foolishly that it was like he was buying a used car and he could
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pretend to walk away and come back and get a better deal. But of course you know then Clinton
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was office and things change and politics change and I would disagree with that. I would disagree
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with that. I think that Erafat's character made it very clear that the spirit of the negotiations
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from Israel's point of view was in good faith and I don't think that the negotiations from his
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perspective was in good faith and I think that the the fact that he was saying in English a very
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specific thing to his audience talking about peace and all these things while simultaneously
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going back to his base in Ramallah encouraging terror attacks against Israeli civilians. I think
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that that challenges the notion that Erafat was simply waiting for a better deal because he just
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really wanted that extra that extra little peace let's say in East Jerusalem. And I think I think
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Erafat wanted it all and has always wanted it all and also I don't think Erafat is I mean I have
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so much to say about Erafat being a ridiculous just corrupt human being who stole millions of
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dollars from his own people. I have no like my heart does not cry for for Erafat not not on the
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part of you know being a Zionist but certainly not on the part of having what I believe is a
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fairly actually pro-Palestinian position. So I think that there are just too many too many
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things in his record that suggests that he was an unseemly character. But in terms of your point
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about you know about some of the different moves that perhaps the Lecude party should have made
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or could have made to make things better I don't think I don't agree with your characterization
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of the building of the wall. I mean the security fence clearly led to a the security fence was
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clearly built for a certain reason namely the fact that you know Palestinian certain Palestinian
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Palestinians were going into Israeli society employing themselves up in marketplaces and in clubs
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and things of that nature so I don't just I don't I don't quibble with the existence or the
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rationale from a security point of view of building a wall it's the specific route that the wall took
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which seemed to be to dig deep into what the international community regards as being Palestinian lands
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that just forms part of a mosaic just one small piece of a jigsaw puzzle of I don't know Israeli
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government's not giving a fuck about Palestinians. Well I also think that's false I mean my first
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trip to Israel actually one of the people we met with was a person who designed the wall and
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there's if you were to if you were to research that there's actually been multiple times that
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the Israeli government has actually moved pieces of a wall because it's because it's been a hassle
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for Palestinian families. Now has it done it all the time? No of course not. Now if you asked me if
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I expect the Israeli government to do it all the time? No of course not but the fact that it has
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done it and of course and the fact that it has actually responded to sometimes when Palestinian
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families have complained about the cutting into different you know piece of agriculture that
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seems to me to be an indication of of of not negligence as you as you described it. Look I think
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that there are different different policies perhaps in the in the past that Israel could have
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pursued differently here and there but I do I don't think that's the crux of the issue. I don't
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think that's the core of the issue. I think the core of the issue remains this political culture
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within Palestinian society that that is just simply the whole cell rejection of Israel's existence
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and which will which will continue to exist as long as the current leadership is in power regardless
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of whether or not Israel removes a piece of the security fence or you know says that says that
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they can have all of East Jerusalem for example as their capital or you know puts a freeze on
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building homes in Judea. As the baby Netanyahu government did when Obama was in office so there
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are certain certain things that we can test and see by actually looking at the historical record
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and seeing well would this lead to Palestinian political leaders coming to the table and being like
30:21
this is great thank you for dotting your eyes across communities and giving us everything we wanted
30:26
now we will stop telling our people that your blood is is you know making your presence is making
30:34
Jerusalem defiled. Now we will do that I mean I just think that the historical record is
30:39
contrary to that and that's all we have to continue with and that that is actually that's that's
30:45
harsh and that's challenging to continue with because because um Israel can't actually
30:52
be autonomous on behalf of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have to make their own choices and
30:57
they do make their own choices and I think we should hold them responsible for their own choices
31:02
just as we would hold anyone else responsible for their choices. This comes back to the soft
31:07
bigotry of low expectations that great Obama line that that frequently gets invoked in terms of
31:14
I mean I find myself in this hypocritical stance as well to some extent that you know and I
31:18
recognize it that that I do hold I do hold white people who claim to be champions of democracy to
31:24
a higher standard than I do people who have absolutely nothing who are scrounging around in the dirt
31:29
and trying rocks at their at that people with lots and lots of money and weapons that's that's
31:34
I don't I don't actually expect impoverished people to like I don't I don't I've heard this before
31:42
but I never I never quite understood this I mean there are millions of impoverished people around
31:48
the world who are in city or situations in Palestinians who are not blowing themselves up or
31:53
throwing rocks at the people who they think is the source of their city situation and and also
31:59
and also if I believe in this concept of like like constructive criticism but but from like a meta
32:07
perspective even like I believe that if you if you want if you if you if you claim to want what's
32:13
best for Palestinian society then it stands to reason that you would demand the best of Palestinian
32:19
society and not and not simply accept except what except the except the unseemly aspects of
32:28
Palestinian society just because those poor people over there have no other choice because of course
32:34
they have a choice that's the point but I but I also don't want to conflate the the existence of
32:40
violence from some Palestinians as being the the representation of the way that all Palestinians
32:45
are responding to the occupation and that actually that actually underscores my point right well
32:51
no I think I think it's sort of what I don't I don't know who's pointed underscores but let me make
32:55
a potentially third point which is that if what you're saying is that we need better leadership
33:00
from Palestinians then it strikes me that all stakeholders who have some some sway over that
33:06
ought to want to foster a sufficient sense of trust and good faith amongst Palestinians towards
33:13
the state of Israel that they are able to to elect leaders who are not so warlike and that
33:19
electing warlike leaders is at least in part a consequence of feeling like you're besieged I mean
33:24
this happens on both sides happens in every country when you feel like you're under attack you
33:28
become more extreme and when you feel like you have interlocutors who are at least willing to
33:32
hear you out you can put your guard down a little bit so it's I think I agree with that yeah
33:38
that would that would be a reason for Israeli Israel being less militaristic and going the
33:43
extra mile to try to bend over backwards and maybe you're right that there that the rift is just
33:47
too far apart and that history shows us that nothing that Israel could ever have done would have
33:52
stopped Palestinian intransigence but when you say that nothing that Israel could ever have
33:56
done would have stopped some Palestinians from saying that the blood of Israel should be you know
34:01
should should pour into the into the sea well that's never going to happen because some Palestinians
34:05
will always say that just as some Israelis will say that Palestinians should be wiped out and
34:09
that greater Israel should reign forever from sea to river but those people aren't those people
34:15
are never winnable there was this great Israeli general I come up with who it was you might know
34:19
who said that this is not a battle of us against them it's some of us and some of them against some
34:23
of them and some of us and that I think the way I start thinking about it yeah I think I think
34:30
that I agree with the with the psychology of what you're saying I think it's challenging because
34:38
of a whole host of reasons not one of which is the fact that I think if you were to just just
34:44
simply look at polling opinions from Palestinian society versus Israeli society you would find
34:52
that there are more Israelis that support for example the two-state solution then there are
34:58
Palestinians that support the two-state solution and there are more Palestinians just from polling data
35:03
that would agree with very explicitly anti-Semitic notions and there are Israelis that would agree with
35:09
very anti-Palestinian explicitly anti-Palestinian notions so I think that's something that's just
35:14
another fact of that one has to continue with because it's it sucks but it's not equivalent it's
35:21
actually not an equivalent sure I mean I'm not sure about the two-state solution polling I think
35:27
Palestinians if Palestinians were guaranteed that they could have an independent state I mean we're
35:31
talking about our assets because I guess we don't really know the polling data but I think increasingly
35:35
especially with the influx of ultra-orthodox Jews into into Israel and the changing demographics
35:41
there and the declining birth rates among progressive left-wing Israelis and the disillusionment in
35:47
Israel I wouldn't be surprised if there if there wasn't a lot of support anymore for a two-state
35:51
solution in Israel or at least if the support was merely rhetorical and not practical but when
35:56
it comes to hatred of like the fact that there's likely more anti-Semitism among Palestinians
36:02
than there is hatred of Arabs among Israelis that comes back to partly what I was talking about about
36:07
the the impoverished child living in squalor and throwing rocks at the oppressor like of course
36:13
that person is less educated and less sophisticated and less enlightened then the person who presides
36:20
over an army with nuclear weapons and tanks and was educated at a New York at a fancy New York
36:26
school Ivy League school and who goes back and runs a country so I don't I don't when you say
36:31
that like why do we why do we get so hung up on these people when there are lots of poor people
36:36
in shitty situations in the world I do think we we carry with us this kind of post-colonial sort of
36:42
guilt that the that people who represent themselves to be part of the enlightenment western democracy
36:48
civilized world that when that when they tolerate or complicit in the the the suppression of people's
36:56
aspirations for for for freedom that that has that that just smells a bit a bit like and rhymes a
37:02
little bit too much with all of the things that we've done for the past few hundred years that we
37:06
regret having done and so that that does affect us a bit more than just random poor people who
37:11
happen to be in Africa in shitty situations that we that representatives who align themselves with
37:16
us are causing well I think that's I think that's in part I think that's the perfect characterization
37:23
of the jingoism that is quite frankly affecting a lot of western commentators on this particular
37:31
issue I mean Israel is as much as a western country as it is a Middle Eastern country and this
37:35
this goes back to why I'm so excited about doing this YouTube series on identity because because
37:43
yeah I mean um there is you know Israel has a western sensibility but it also is is very much
37:49
a Middle Eastern country uh the majority of the country is Miss Rocky not Ashkenazi um you know
37:56
and and that affects the character of the state and Israel is not simply this I hate I actually
38:03
sort of cringe when I hear the this is a sort of pro-Israel language Israel is the is the western
38:09
outpost you know in the Middle East which doesn't actually quite get to the character of the state
38:15
and of the country which is actually far more complex and complicated and I think uh you're
38:20
you're describing number one and and an inability to to sort of wrestle with the complexity of even
38:26
the Jewish nature of the state which again is affected by the Miss Rocky majority um which is
38:31
Middle Eastern yeah and just to clarify just to find Miss Rocky versus Ashkenazi for people
38:37
yes Miss Rocky Miss Rocky or Jews who come from the Northeast or excuse me it's the North Africa
38:42
and the Middle East so Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt uh you know uh Iran uh Lebanon etc um most of many of
38:53
whom were kicked out uh of or or or sort of run out of town when Israel was reestablished in 1948
39:00
and then immigrated to Israel in roles in the in the late 40s and early 50s um so they are very
39:06
much a part in parcel of the fabric of Israeli society and it's sort of I mean I know you don't
39:13
mean to and people don't mean to but it's a bit of an insult to discount them because their narrative
39:18
is very much a part of Israeli society so I say all that to say the number just just to keep in mind
39:23
that Israel is not simply a western country it is as much a Middle Eastern country as it is a
39:29
western country and that is a part of the of the character um of the country and I and I still
39:38
keep going back to this uh to this impulse within myself that says that just finds it very
39:46
cringe worthy uh to suggest that because the Palestinians what what it seems to me that you're
39:54
saying uh is that because the Palestinians well this is what you're saying we conceive of Israel as
40:00
ex as one of us as sort of a western uh country that is enlightened and democratic etc and we
40:08
perceive the Palestinians as this sort of poor uh downtrodden oppressed brown people and so we
40:17
because we the West have this history of oppressing brown people we expect Israel to be better
40:24
and not do that essentially well there are a whole whole of problems with that with with that
40:31
way of thinking number one because one of the things is what I just described Israel is actually
40:35
both the western country and the Middle Eastern country but number two Israel is does not have
40:39
the same history as these western countries there's also actually one of the only countries in
40:42
human history to bring black people to its shores or people's color to to the shores for the
40:47
purposes of rescuing them we see this not only for example in the in the campaigns to rescue
40:54
Mizrahi Jews but also in the campaigns in the nineties to rescue Ethiopian Jews uh from from
41:01
Gondar Ethiopia um during the uh civil wars of Ethiopia during that time so Israel has a
41:08
fundamentally different history and and comes out of a different historical context uh then
41:15
then the u.s then australia then the british empire many people forget that Israel had an entire
41:21
streak of fighting against the british empire many people forget that when golden mayor went
41:26
to african countries when she was a member of the labor party and i think the foreign minister um
41:33
in the in the fifties that she was considered to be a revolutionary by many in the in the african
41:41
countries because they considered her to be Israel to be one of them and not one of the west so
41:45
Israel has this complex uh character about it that cannot be pigeonholed into a western purely western
41:53
conception of identity and if you miss if one misunderstands that then one will get the
41:59
Israeli policy in conflict completely wrong and that's why to go back to what i said earlier i
42:04
think that it is closer to for example you know two native american tribes let's say the trok
42:11
tall and the Cherokee native american tribes fighting each other and having to navigate the complexities
42:18
of that then it is just an oppressor oppressing brown people that is that is that does not get at the
42:24
heart of the history of israeli society it's israeli conception of identity um and it doesn't
42:30
get at the heart of what israel fundamentally is it is not simply a western country and i'm glad
42:37
you make that point it's a good one um i would just i would just alter qualify what your article what
42:42
your um interpretation of what i was saying is which is i'm not saying that we say that israel
42:49
is western i'm saying that israel presents itself as being a western democracy israel's whole
42:53
chick is we are the civilized ones in a in a region that is chaotic if israel's motto was hey we're
43:00
better than Yemen i'd be fine right but that's not their motto the motto is we stand up here in
43:05
beautiful Italian suits and we speak perfect English and we are one of you guys and we are the
43:10
civilized ones and these people are in a in a region of savages um and so the and that brings me to
43:15
the two tribes this idea of two tribes it's an interesting analogy but and i suppose it's correct
43:20
because you're not talking about colonialists who had no connection to the land just randomly
43:25
coming in the way that they did in australia or or or in in the Americas but i would just qualify
43:30
by saying it's a bit like if two Native American tribes were in a conflict and one of them had the
43:36
101st Airborne and the other one didn't so well yes but but yes i mean obviously in terms of like
43:44
material you know uh access to weapons that that would make that would mean that one had more power
43:52
but and you'd be sympathetic to the ones who who were getting bombed like you'd be like oh that's
43:56
shitty for them not necessarily not necessarily no because because again i do not i do not
44:02
do twitter level you know analysis i would be interested in the in the complex nature of the conflict
44:09
how the conflict came to be i would not simply say oh this Native American tribe has has fighter jet
44:14
planes and one does not therefore i would going to side for the one that does not i mean that
44:18
strikes me as just just not just uninteresting political analysis i think that there's more
44:26
there's there's more that meets the eye and i think if we are mature responsible uh you know
44:34
people who are analyzing the complexity and it's it's it's so complex that's one of the most
44:39
complex conflict which makes which i think is what really contributes to the stalemate um
44:44
that it's actually much more complex than than what it is described to or how it is described
44:50
to be on social media uh and it that's also why it's such a frustrating thing to talk about and
44:55
why people are so in transitions it's almost like if when when problems are simple people can talk
44:59
about them at length and try to find some i suppose some way of hearing each other out but when
45:05
when problems are extremely complicated people simplify them down and dilute them into cartoon
45:09
cutouts and then it becomes correct and then they become even more certain about about their own
45:14
position so that's i mean that's one reason why i find it refreshing to talk to you because there
45:18
is obviously a lot of nuance going on and the points on which we disagree you could we could
45:21
drill down we could spend five hours drilling down into precisely into precisely why and i think
45:26
we can do it in good faith so let's park Israel there also before i forget when you were talking
45:31
about Israel being both east and west it reminded me i was in Greece in 2015 during the referendum
45:36
on whether to crash out of the um the eurozone and when they voted no and um people Greeks then
45:44
were saying like you've got who were who are very very in favor of staying in the eurozone and
45:48
were terrified of leaving were saying you got to remember like we think of Greece as being the
45:52
poorest country in the EU but you could also think about as being the richest country in the Balkans
45:57
the most successful country in the Balkans and if we if we are no longer part of the eurozone we will
46:02
become Albania and that that like flicked a switch in me and i thought oh yeah they're not just
46:07
shitty like four Europeans down on the like they are straddling a hugely complicated set of
46:13
cultural and economic issues in a way that is not totally dissimilar to to Israel because anytime
46:19
you're parked on a crossroads i guess yeah right they're they're it's complicated um wait can i
46:24
add one more yeah please yeah okay so this is interesting because this speaks this this reminds me
46:29
of of what i like to say when i'm like lecturing about this is that you can't use like a western
46:34
political you can't use the western political spectrum to understand israeli society and what i
46:38
mean by that is with for example we're talking about the difference between uscanism and misrachi
46:42
Jews right what what's even more fascinating is that misrachi Jews in in israel often tends to vote
46:48
right wing and so so the the if you were to examine it from an american lens you would assume
46:56
that the people of color quote unquote right that the the brown Jews would vote left but actually
47:03
historically in israeli society it was the lekuld party that uh campaign on behalf of the
47:11
misrachi and it was the labor party which was ascanazi that campaigned on the part of the ascanazi
47:18
cultural elite so it's all top tea turvy if you're looking at it through an american lens meanwhile
47:23
the misrachi community by and large to a large extent votes conservative and votes right wing in in uh
47:31
israeli society so it's just to be again to look at it on the surface in a superficial way you would
47:37
be let you be confused like why are the people of color voting right wing but in points of fact
47:42
the misrachi community has had um a mixed a relationship really it's a confused people the misrachi
47:50
community has had a mixed relationship with the Arabs historically when they're living in
47:54
Arab when they're living in a positive a positive mixed relationship with the Arabs
47:59
part of it was positive part of it was very negative right and so and so oh i say what you think
48:05
so uh the the misrachi more uh religious with that explain why they're more right wing
48:10
misrachi are more traditional yes uh so they're more religious and this is the irony because you
48:16
have ascanazi people on screen like saying what you just said like we are a western democratic
48:22
opus blah blah blah in the suits and speaking english but then there's a very uh there's a very
48:27
large community in israel that are not um that are traditional that are voting right wing that have
48:35
a very uh complicated relationship with with Arab communities that are that are less that are less
48:41
likely to what they would describe as bullshit you on telling you how they feel about the Arabs
48:46
and you cannot assess that in a american in an american way because because in that case it's like
48:54
two groups of brown people right yeah who who who don't like each other or have had a very
49:01
difficult tension field relationship historically and but that's but that's the fascinating stuff
49:07
and that's the complicated stuff and we don't get to talk about that on twitter yeah no i like i like
49:12
that i mean yeah my dad has has friends who went to israel and he was in hubba nim which is like
49:17
this jewish uh you know community camp kind of like scouts and he has uncles over there and they are
49:21
all the jaded white skinned uh left wing labor jews who resent the fact that netanyah who has this
49:30
huge base of brown skin people to whom he's a populist uh demagogue uh yeah right in in in there
49:37
and i bet and i bet you most most people who are like even assessing bevy's you know uh power
49:44
plays don't realize that don't realize that a lot of its constituency are actually people of color
49:49
well it's like yeah i mean there's a lot of naivete in in the states and in australia about well
49:55
especially in the states i think it's gone so much further in the states than it has anywhere else
49:58
the the obsession with identity like i was talking to an american friend about the fact that
50:02
uh asian australians uh tend to be conservative i don't know whether they're majority conservative
50:06
but asian australians tend to be and there's a huge number like more than half of australia has
50:11
arrived since the second world war we have an immigration rate three times higher than the united
50:15
states per capita and a large large chunk of that is asian and they're essentially hard working
50:21
conservative small business people who vote for who vote conservative and like in the american
50:25
american context a recent person of color migrant is supposed to be left wing so that's a little bit
50:31
baffling but it's actually wealthy it's wealthy white inner-city people like me who swill our shardonnay
50:36
and sip our lattes who vote left wing in australia it's not so much people so let's just pivot back to
50:42
the states to wrap this up um do you have any final thoughts about i mean the the piece that you
50:46
wrote in the new york times that we were alluding to earlier was um was headline why i refused to
50:50
avoid white people and was basically about how when you were growing up you didn't really hear the
50:54
words white privilege that was something that you heard when you got to college um correct and so
51:00
speak to me about whiteness and the path forward for the left yeah you know i don't know what's
51:07
going on with the left so there's this uh there's this trends unhealthy trend of racial
51:12
essentialism uh that essentially says that by virtue of being white or quite frankly by virtue of
51:19
being black um that you are expected to embody a particular uh a particular set of really
51:28
behaviors and and it is assumed that you would have had a particular set of experiences by virtue
51:34
of your skin color actually this is happening on both the left and the right um the left you see it
51:39
i think coming from the likes of uh uh taana haasi coats who if people don't know i really really
51:46
dislike his ideas for the most part um i had a piece in an Atlantic magazine responding to one of
51:51
his pieces about Donald Trump uh so so taana haasi coats is the really the i mean he he is really
51:59
pioneered this at least in contemporary life this idea on racial essentialism uh and he believes
52:06
that quote unquote whiteness is the the reason for the season if you will the reason for everything
52:15
and and and toxic and dominating and evil in the world um i think on the right you have people
52:23
like kandis owens who who also uh engage in this exercise of racial essentialism by saying
52:31
you know the left has the democrats have tricked us and all of us black people are waking up
52:37
and we're getting off the plantation uh which is really just a horrible analogy in trivializing
52:43
of of what the experience of slavery was like yeah so the so this is happening on both the left
52:48
on the fringes that i think of the left and the right and it's actually quite toxic because
52:53
what it essentially says is that let's take Colt's perspective for example he i don't know if
52:58
he saw his piece in an Atlantic calling he claimed he accused Kanye West of exercising whiteness
53:04
okay so that is that is so insulting as a black person because what he's essentially saying is
53:10
Kanye West does not have the freedom to be wrong that's essentially what he's saying because
53:16
well he's saying i think just to articulate his argument for people who haven't read it
53:20
i think he was saying that extremely privileged uh wealthy black people find themselves can
53:26
well specifically Kanye can find themselves falling into a trap of uh of kind of universalizing
53:32
their own luxury and privilege and so Kanye has become a trump supporter and in tana he's
53:37
he coats his eyes he's basically become white in the sense that he's lost any connection to the
53:44
to what it means to be a minority because he's been privileged for so long i think that's the way
53:47
that i would like to say and so and so embedded in that argument is this idea uh that minorities
53:57
i mean it's it's it's an interesting psychology it's like minorities must be under
54:01
privilege by virtue of being a minority essentially or minorities minorities aren't um minorities lose
54:09
their minority card essentially once they once they engage in certain behaviors that are that are
54:15
deemed unseemly but what i think is ironic about that and i wrote a piece that i did not publish
54:21
but i wrote a piece responding to to this um it's it's it's dangerous because
54:29
what you're essentially doing when you're describing quote-unquote whiteness or quote-unquote blackness
54:36
is you're essentially arguing a a a caricature of what it means to be either white or black
54:44
essentially uh and and that's dangerous because in the era of Jim Crow that are called correctly
54:50
there were white people who were saying to be black meant to be associated with you know uh devil
54:57
like behavior to be associated with unseemly behavior to be associated with all these bad things
55:03
and on the basis of that lynchings happen right and i thought i i find it interesting that it seems
55:09
that there's a flip in the argument today on the left where people are saying by virtue of being
55:14
black you have to be you have to toe a certain political line when the point is when i think that
55:19
the point of freedom is autonomy and and and autonomy means you can be right and you can be wrong
55:25
like i think Kanye West was wrong in his opinion and and Kanye West as a free black person
55:30
can be wrong you have the freedom to be wrong and i think that there's something uh quite dangerous
55:36
actually in suggesting that you can't be wrong or to be wrong is akin to exercising a thing
55:44
called whiteness um because that's a i mean that's a caricature yeah i don't know if you saw
55:50
the brujahara about trevanoa and the french ambassador when the france won the world cup but there
55:55
was a similar thing there where trevanoa on the daily show on Comedy Central did a joke uh saying
56:01
that africa won the world cup because all of the french team players you know more than half were
56:06
people of color and the french ambassador to the united states wrote to trevanoa in strong terms
56:11
saying these people are french they were born in france almost all of them are french citizens
56:15
and born in france not like they were just imported in order to win in order to win for us these
56:19
people of france your kind of racial essentialism is denying their frenchness in the same way that the
56:24
far right does they say that lot of look this isn't really a french team and a couple of episodes
56:29
ago on this show i had john litchfield on the show who's the former paris bureau chief of the
56:34
independent newspaper in the uk who's an english french guy to explain the difference between um
56:39
the way that we think about identity in uh in france versus in the united states and he was
56:44
basically making that same point that this sort of essentialism that that america has gotten
56:49
at self into is something that in france is regarded as being completely toxic and is obvious to
56:55
everybody that it that that is that is just a dead end but ton of easy code seems it seems to also
56:59
think it's a dead end and he seems to think there's no way out of it like he he engages in it but like
57:03
if you read his books he thinks that there will never be an end to racial antagonism and that there
57:09
this is just the the the the natural state of affairs which i think is incredibly depressing
57:15
well i think he says something even worse i mean of course i think that of course will be
57:20
you know racial antagonism i think what he's saying is worse in the sense that in the sense that he's
57:25
saying racial antagonism is responsible for everything and this is uh what's that there's a famous
57:31
linguist professor who was actually just named a editor at the Atlantic uh i think it glenn lawry
57:37
yes right oh i didn't know that he was yeah glenn is amazing so he he had a great piece recently
57:45
not denying the fact that microaggressions exist right but but but being baffled at this idea
57:53
that that microaggressions should and must stop black people from succeeding and i think that's the
58:01
distinction um and which is sort of ironic because cult has succeeded uh like he hit his success or
58:10
or his success is almost a a rebuttal to his own argument in a way um his his existence is a response
58:19
to his despair right so he also yeah yeah go ahead well i was just gonna say he's also extremely
58:26
compelling to white people because he knows all of the buttons to be like i read it and i go
58:31
fuck me i am a piece of shit like i am complicit in something that is far bigger than i could
58:36
even have conceived of and he's such a good writer like some people he's an amazing writer some
58:40
people disagree he's an amazing writer i've got a friend Camille Foster i don't know if you know
58:44
Camille um who is uh also a dissident kind of African-American intellectual who's in New York
58:48
he you should catch up with actually he's a very good guy he's been a guest on this show too
58:52
and he uh he does he thinks that he's a coach is a is a terrible writer and i'm like you cannot
58:57
say that like just you cannot you cannot say that at least grant him at least grant him the
59:02
the fact that he's an amazing writer and an incredibly sort of manipulative and an emotive and
59:07
passionate uh an empathic uh writer but what he's really selling is he's selling for white people to
59:13
he's selling white shame and guilt and it's a kind of a circle jerk i feel sometimes between white
59:19
people to like out you know outnobal themselves in in signal lever true to each other by how much
59:25
they love tenaheasy cuts well well this is the great this is really the sad uh but also hilarious
59:32
irony of it is that the people who like him the most are white people yeah like it's not like
59:36
it's not like black people we're like in our circles being like oh the jury the latest son of
59:41
like we're not we're not we are not it's white people that are fascinated and and um just flumics
59:47
and bending over backwards uh for a person who is telling them um that he hates them
59:53
essentially and glimmer brings up this point as well he said he talks about how he he was talking
59:59
to one of his friends who was white and who was sort of like you know obsessed with tonahashi
1:00:05
coach or or not obsessed but interested in the argument and and glimmer says to him you do
1:00:10
realize that he hates you not not you white person in the abstract but you specifically and he
1:00:17
says how do you think that you are worthy or deserving of that hatred do you think that you you
1:00:22
personally are worthy or deserving of that hatred and it really and it really made him think
1:00:28
and pause and just be like well no i don't i don't actually and so i do think there is a surface
1:00:34
level love that is that that meaning well i think there's a surface level love that comes out of
1:00:42
tonahashi coach's writings meaning let me let me rephrase that that's the wrong way to put it i
1:00:47
think that to think that his writing is beautiful is accurate but only if one is reading on the
1:00:52
surface i think that once one unpacks what he is saying one realizes that what he is writing is
1:01:00
actually at least from my perspective as a black person quite terrifying uh why because what he's
1:01:07
because what he's essentially arguing is that being black can be reduced to or narrowly defined by
1:01:14
anyone singular experience and what the beauty of James one of James Baldwin's uh debates against
1:01:22
a really famous conservative commentator whose name I forget but he debated him actually at the UK
1:01:30
um and he famously said that you know pull point of of putting the humanity and realizing and
1:01:38
recognizing the humanity of black people is realizing that black people can be anything they can be
1:01:43
we can be incredible philosophers, philosophers, artists and Kanye's you know
1:01:50
situation or we can also be like horrible dictators and brutal and cruel right but but the fact
1:01:57
the recognition that we can be all of these things is the recognition of the humanity of black people
1:02:02
and what's ironic about what coach is doing very subtly is denying that and that was really the
1:02:08
the crux of my problem with his piece about Kanye is that to suggest that Kanye's uh ridiculous
1:02:15
statements make him white is to actually take away the humanity of Kanye as a black person
1:02:21
and in that humanity he can be bad he can be wrong right and to clarify when we talk about
1:02:27
Tanaisee coach I don't think we're just talking about him right I mean he is he is an avatar
1:02:31
and a lightning rod but the criticisms that you're making of him um correct me if I'm wrong could
1:02:37
presumably be be made of what you might call the mainstream black lives matter narrative about race
1:02:43
in America at the moment and it strikes me that there are that that is the kind of hegemony
1:02:49
and then there's an intellectual descent which is quite stupid on the left which is articulated by
1:02:54
people like um kandas Owens I tweeted by the way recently uh kandas Owens is what old people think
1:03:01
a good young person is and what white people think a good black person is and what dumb people
1:03:05
think a good intellectual is um that's really good she's like I have to find that I want to
1:03:10
resweet that that's really excellent um fifth of June Josh steps uh uh and but and like that
1:03:17
just annoys the shit out of me that kind of end of the of the conservative black spectrum but
1:03:22
and then the number of of african-american intellectuals who are like you and Camille Foster and
1:03:27
now Coleman Hughes this young guy I don't know if you know him and Glenn Lowry and John McWater like
1:03:33
treading on eggshells taking bullets from all directions and just trying to to articulate
1:03:40
yeah trying to articulate a vision of of independent um individualized sort of blackness that
1:03:46
isn't beholden to any particular preset prism of belief is um I mean I don't envy you for being
1:03:52
there although I must say as a white person trying to do it in some ways it's even more uh dodgy
1:03:58
because I can always just be a piece of being of being racist uh correct correct you just have to
1:04:02
be an uncle Tom correct uh but I do have to disagree slightly um just because black lives matter
1:04:09
black lives matter is we don't quite know what it is meaning it's not quite an organization with
1:04:15
with it's more of a coalition and so you might find a local chapter of black lives matter that
1:04:21
has completely different views from a coat type and I think it's important to make that distinction
1:04:25
especially because cannis Owens gets on my nerves when I see her yelling at members of black
1:04:30
lives matter and even if you disagree with sort of the approach of black lives matter I think that
1:04:35
there's a way that you try to talk to people who and I someone I was talking to someone and they
1:04:42
said something incredible they said if you're a politician and you get elected you everyone is
1:04:48
your constituent including the people who did not vote for you and you have to keep that in mind
1:04:52
and I believe that that's an important sort of sentiment that should inform political commentators
1:04:58
like cannis Owens who disagree perhaps uh correctly so with certain ideologies and strains
1:05:05
in black lives matter but should still speak to members of black lives matter in the respectful way
1:05:10
and for the purpose of actually convincing them not for the purpose of like tearing them down and
1:05:16
and you know telling them to get off the plantation or whatever yeah ridiculous rhetoric she's used
1:05:22
yeah yeah good point Chloe I will leave it there you've been more than generous with your time and
1:05:26
we could talk about a bazillion different other things I'm sure and hopefully we can in the future
1:05:31
but thanks so much for being on the show thank you for having me