Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / Turn Your Website into a Real Business Asset with Jamie Christensen
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Welcome to Un-Fuck Your Legal Marketing, the show where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and. A professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F-bombs along the way. So, let's get into it. Websites. Lawyers know that they need them, but most don't have a strategy for what it's for and how it will generate business. Today's guest is my dear friend, Jamie Christensen, who is the founder of Fuse Associates. Jamie helps attorneys connect the dots between strategy and marketing. And she gets especially excited when her clients say, we can't keep up with the new business, which is a very, very good thing to have, which most attorneys want to have. We're going to explore what websites actually do. where it's costing them opportunities and how to make it work as a real business asset. Jamie, welcome to UnFuck Your Legal Marketing. Thanks, Gary. It's great to be here. I'm so glad you're here. Okay, let's have fun. So let's start simple. What is a law firm website actually supposed to do? It depends. Of course you're going to say that as a marketing person. It's going to be a theme, think, today. It depends. It depends on what kind of firm they are. We have some firms that their business is solely driven by referrals. And so the website is there as a reference to show their legitimate business, maybe get some background information and help potential prospects. Those sites are there to drive business. to do lead generation and truly differentiate and give someone an idea of who they could be working with if they hired a firm and could be the first time they're ever seen. So depending on, okay, so let's break those two down then. So on the credibility, what are they supposed to do like with this? what are some of the things that you are like, I really want them to focus in on maybe two or three different areas. for that credibility building as opposed to this one is going to churn out a bunch of leads for us. the credibility side, it's really helping a prospect understand how that firm is different from all the other firms that they're looking at. So brand. It's brand awareness and making sure that you differentiate yourself. from everybody else that does what's perceived to be the same thing. absolutely. Differentiating is one of the most important things, right? Do you work with those firms to help them understand or develop that differentiator? Absolutely. And we do that through our messaging. So, you know, we were joking earlier, Gary, about pretty, prettying up materials or marketing. Well, it's not just about it looks nice. It needs to have messaging that makes people realize there's a problem that this firm can help them with. That's a good one. So if you're listening to this and you want to really dive into something simple but powerful is identify those problems that you help your clients solve and make sure that that is front and center on your website. Right. Why is that so important? Because that's how you're going to show up differently. Not enough enough firms do it. And this doesn't even have to just be legal. It's across the It is an excellent way to differentiate yourself. Most firms talk only about themselves. They're not not posing the statements from the benefit of the prospect. Again, another fucking great ⁓ nugget. Client focused, not how great I am and how good I look. I talk a lot about that. Yes, and that's why we do so well together. Those neuromarketing and messaging triggers are huge. They're a subconscious thing, but it impacts the results that you're going to get. Yeah, absolutely. If you've got a website that just looks beautiful, but there's nothing of substance, there's no value, and it just says how great you are, that's empty. That's like, it's not going to move the needle at all. You know, somebody had said, I should not put any pictures of myself on the website because I'm just way too beautiful. And, ⁓ which is always the theme people are, why are you laughing at that? That's not very nice. know, well, I was trying to figure out, are you talking about yourself or somebody else? See how my, my guests abuse me. I hope that the listeners have a little bit of sympathy for me. Okay, now let's switch to the ones that are driving or want the website to drive leads into their practice. What are some of the things that they should look at? Is it similar to it? Is it a little bit different? Is it completely different than the credibility aspect? It depends. All right. And what does that depend on? The type of firm again, and what type of leads we're going after. ⁓ Messaging always needs to be really dialed in and client centric. So across whether it's a branding site or it's for lead gen, that's going to be similar. Just really making statements that are going to drive decisions. Yeah. it's, and I've got a couple of clients in mind where We're driving leads. It might be for your business. SEO is a great place. may, you know, other businesses like criminal defense or family law advertising may be what's needed. And that all links into the website. would you say every law firm should have a website? Website is table stakes. Yeah. It's table stakes. Yeah. And why? Why? I'll say there's two. two table stakes. What's the first thing somebody's going to do if they meet you and are looking up what you do? They're going to go to see if you have a website. Yeah. They're going to go to LinkedIn. Yeah. Got to have one. If your website is something that you built on the weekend and has a bunch of stock images and very little information other than saying how great you are, that's going to show up. That's part of your brand. That's saying that you You don't care enough to actually invest and give people usable information. Yeah. Stock images. No good. Don't you even say the D word again. Stock images. you know, it's interesting. I've got a, I've got a sole practitioner attorney that we just launched his site. He paid for a custom photographer. Wasn't that expensive, but for him and his brand, he's all over that website. And it looks phenomenal. And if you're trying to, if you're trying to really connect with people, I try to steer my clients towards custom photography, but if you're going to use stock, make it as least stock image, imagey as possible. Yeah. Yeah. And there's ways to do that. And this goes back to what you were talking about at the beginning is differentiating yourself. Stock images are not differentiating. Everybody has them. I shouldn't say everybody. So many people have them. And it's like, yeah, you're just like everybody else. I remember way back in the day in my last profession, I was building their website with a web developer, obviously, because I don't have those skills. But I was picking out all these stock images and that's really, that was the way to go. It's like, ⁓ pay a little bit extra for stock. these are great. And you'd go through 2 million different ones and Then I started, you you start perusing through after your website is done, you start looking at other websites. You're like, that's my picture. That's my picture. That's my picture. And it was everywhere. The same group of people with nice either suits or dress or something that looked professional. I'm like, God, I just wanted to kill myself, you know? And then fortunately I did the same thing. I hired a photographer to do B-roll, like take pictures, candid shots of the office. Cause that's us. and here's the other thing that I loved about it was it was a great recruiting tool, which sometimes we don't think about when it comes to website. I know you do, but a lot of firms don't think of, you could use this. Well, one great thing is a picture of the lobby. A picture of offices, a picture of your view, if you've got a really nice view, picture of the building, a picture of you guys working with the client, all those kinds of assets really help accentuate a website, right? Yeah. And along those lines and the term authentic is overused at this point. But when, but all of those examples you just gave, it is showing people authentically. who you are, what your culture is like. There's so much that a website can do through the use of imagery. Do you want to be known as a bland place that doesn't care about the details? That's essentially what you're saying with a stock imagery site. Yeah. The psychology behind that is like, yeesh. I'll throw out Sean Bukowski. He has a firm down in Austin. Part of that being authentic is his custom photos. He has Michigan stickers on the back of his laptop. And we had a conversation about, we black that out? And I'm like, no, that's his personality. Now he's probably cut off several people that won't work with him because they don't like Michigan. No, I don't know. Yeah, but those are either Ohio State or Michigan State. And who cares about those people? Just joking. If you went to school there, kidding. But yeah, mean, if somebody is going to be that petty. and not work with you because of that. Really, do you really want them as your client? Yeah. So putting on your judgment hat, if you're looking at a law firm website for the first time, not one that you've worked on at all, but you look at it, what are some of the things that you look for and identify with them, either good, bad, or ugly? The biggest thing it is they're messaging client centric. Okay. And I'm going to say 99 % of the time, they all sound the same. Here's what we do. We're a state and trust attorneys. We try to add value to our clients through X, Y, We, we, we, we, we. Just know about us. Like all the stuff. Like, no, just take it out. Yeah. ⁓ my God. Yeah. Yeah. What else? What else do you look for? I look at the copyright. You look at the copyright at the bottom? To see if it's up to date? Shut up. I do that. Do you really? I do. Yeah. Do. ⁓ Yeah. Guess what happened on January 1? We need to change that copyright. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the first things I look at with people. What does that tell you? How important is marketing to them? How? It's a detail. Who? Are they actively managing their online presence? If their copyrights from 2024, you know, I think especially with attorneys, details are so important. And if you're not, if you're not paying attention to that and anything prospect or client facing, it kind of makes you question what else are they missing? How about, and I know you're going to say the D word on But is there too many pages if we're talking about the website that is for credibility only This is not let's just say throw SEO out throw all that is there a I don't know if size is the right pages is the right or is it is there too much it or Is there a balance that needs to be struck on that? Trying to think how to say this without using the D word. Go and use the D word. It depends on. Depends on the size of the firm, how many practice areas they have. Okay. Got it. So yeah, it depends. Okay. Okay. So let me, let me give you an example. Okay. A state planning firm, three attorneys. Okay. They don't do any litigation, just planning. That's it. They do, you know, trust and wills. What's too big. What's too small or is there too small? I too small is one page. Okay. So they shouldn't have just one page. Like they're not trying to slap everything on one page. Right. Right. I would probably say realistically you're looking at 10 to 12 pages. Okay. So size matters. It does. What is a quote unquote template website? Why are they frowned upon and what screams out? template that you look at something and you're like template got it. It's template. lot of stock imagery. Okay. Basic text. And the way I would describe it is it's flat. ⁓ okay. personality. Ooh, that's Is most likely going to be a template because it's that person that I've got to have a site. So I'm going to, I'm going to work it up this weekend and I just have to get something out there. Yeah. Have a permanent coming soon page for months and months. that rather than... Under construction. Yes. Yeah. That's great. How about font? How important is the type of font that somebody has on their website? think that can vary. Like, of course, I love fonts and my designer is crazy about custom fonts. That's not going to be as big of a needle mover to me as colors. ⁓ okay. colors. think about, you know, there's a whole color theory on everybody cites blue because it signifies trust. But, you know, is it do they look like everyone else? They've got blue and gray and Collins from a Supreme Court building or something from the 80s. Yeah. Scales of justice. Yeah. Red, a red button that you click on. You don't put red in that. Red means stop. My God. I never thought about that because most of the buttons are red. want, they, they're like, I'm thinking they want it to be red. So it stands out, right? It contrasts, say with the blue, but it means you're right. means stop subconsciously. Holy shit. I never thought about that. That's, I love all the little subconscious stuff. Yeah. How do they learn what is the right color? for my firm website. I mean, if they didn't have somebody like you, because I know you can be like, okay, based on what you guys are trying to accomplish, your target market, who you guys are, this is what I would recommend. But if somebody is like, okay, I want to figure out what my firm's color should be, is there a process, is there a way for them to look at it? Because like you had said, blue is trust, right? Red is stop or get the hell out. know, you know, I have a red bathroom so I don't spend that much time in it, you know, that kind of stuff. And that's a, that's a lie, by the way. We're just going to right over your, color your bathroom is. Nobody needs to know that. So ⁓ how do they come up with their colors? Colors are really, colors are really subjective. So for someone to decide themselves, some people. They, gonna pick on Sean again. His colors aren't Michigan, but here, Mark Nielsen. Mark Nielsen has a website and he did it the same colors, or we did it the same colors as the town he lives in's high school colors, because he's trying to make a really strong tie to that community. ⁓ So it really varies. Sometimes it's just, love this color and we make that work. Sometimes it's based on the feeling that somebody wants to portray. Yeah. So when somebody is interviewing a web designer, should they ask them about color? Should they say, Hey, what's your theory on color and how important it is? If they're talking to the actual web designer, if they're talking to a web developer, the web developer may not have any theory on that because they've got somebody else that's actually going to do the design. it depends on who you're talking to. Yeah. But even the web developer should understand the importance of color though, right? Yes. Yes. They should. Right. Right. They should. Doesn't mean... They do. But they should. Yeah. Where do you find that firms overcomplicate things on a website? When it's written like a book. Just paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of text. Yeah. Written like a book. Like they've done it... Bad. A brief. That's even better. Written like a brief. Don't do it. The other thing, so over-complicating. Using big words to make themselves sound smarter. Why is that not good? Most people don't want to have to think that hard. If there's an easier way to say something, say it with three words instead of 20. Yeah. That's a huge one. Concise. know, make a pithy. Don't go on and on and on. You don't have a jury in front of you. You don't need to be like flowery this and filler this and fluff here and fluff there. Yeah. Make it nice, concise to the point. Yeah. I find that attorneys have a extensive vocabulary and they typically like to use it to make others feel inferior. And I, I love telling them that's great for opposing counsel. That's horrible for potential client. They want to be able to trust you and they want to be able to go, gets me. And by using legalese or just a big vocabulary, you could lose somebody very quickly because they're like, this person, this attorney just doesn't get me. They just don't get me. ⁓ And I, yeah, I agree. I find I see that on websites and you just go, what? What? And I yeah, it's, I, I usually take a more conversational approach to the writing. Like make it easy, make it fun if that's your brand. You know, find the ways that you can, again, differentiate based on the language you use. Like one of my favorites, and we all have our favorites, but there's a group leader here in Dallas, Rachel Lee, and she calls herself the badass family attorney. Now she's good with that. Somebody else might, ⁓ my gosh, I just cussed, you Your website should be flat. Yeah, it should. It should. It shouldn't be offensive, right? But it should be you. Right. Call to action. Yes. How important is a call to action and why? You want to guide someone to the next step. You're guiding them on the buying journey. I mean, obviously you don't want calls to action, five buttons in one section, but Pretty regularly throughout the site, it needs to be guiding whether it's to a contact form or it's email or it's call. It's, yeah, you have to have them. So you're saying not to have a call to action on just one of your 20 pages. You're saying to have it one on everyone, but even multiple times on one, but not all in one specific section. You got it. ⁓ Why does that work so well? Well, people jump around. and you want to make it easy for them. ⁓ make it easy. That's a different kind of concept. Make it easy. Easy button. Yeah, but that one's red. True. That's why I never push it. ⁓ that's so good. That's going to stay with me. Red stop. Being in Texas, I end up with a lot of Texas-based clients that their color scheme is red, white, and blue. And that red, yeah, you just have to be careful how it's used. when looking at a website, are there certain pages that are more important than others that should be a little bit more emphasis on or time on? Well, the homepage. How long do you realistically spend on website? And do you go, you know, page by page? No, you're usually wanting to get in and out, scan through. See if they have the information you're looking for and then you move on. So the homepage absolutely is the most important. Those internal pages, a lot of times those are more for SEO or, you know, reference materials. But the other one I think is really important because again, we're all trying to differentiate ourselves is anything having to do with culture. The culture of the firm, the team, and not saying about us in the in the top of the nav saying your team or yeah. Okay. So is that also to differentiate yourself because everybody else is putting about us? Yes. I, my team knows I do not want to see about us or who we are. Yeah. That's what everybody sounds like. So stand out there as well. Like that. our team. No, your team. Your team. Oh, again, client focused. Brilliant. Your team. If anybody is listening to this and you're on my website, don't go off of it because I don't have that. have about me. Yeah, that's good. Your team. Yeah. And I do, I love the fact that you're looking at it from so many different angles in regards to credibility, bringing in the right clients, bringing in ideal clients and also Bring in attorneys or paralegals or, you know, other staff, trade of staff, ⁓ because they see the culture. They totally see the culture. ⁓ which is, I think it's such a huge thing that we just don't think about those like, yeah, that is so money. Your team. is one small tweak that you think like you see on a regular basis that makes such a huge difference that you're like, If law firms just did this, this small little tweak, changed a lot of different things. What is the very first thing somebody sees on your homepage and does it accurately reflect you? And what does it say? So just focus on, we call it above the fold. you get that right. And above the fold means what? It's what you see on your screen before you start scrolling. So if you think about it like a newspaper when we used to read those. Above the fold was because the newspaper was folded. So you saw just the, the top half. Is that really where it came from? Come on, Gary. I did not. I'm learning all sorts of things. I love this. Wow. Okay. So really focus in on the above the fold. Yes. What's the first thing, you know, and are you look strong tagline you want, you want the person that lands on your site to go. I can identify with that and they can solve my problem. Yeah, I can identify it. They can solve my problem. Like, okay, if they get that within the first, what, five, 10 seconds, they're like, okay, I think I want to scroll. Yep. I think I want to contact. I think I'm going to hit that non-red button that's over there on the side that's screaming out that call to action. ⁓ my God. There's so many fricking nuggets in this. Jamie, like... Thank you. I don't even know where to start. if, so for the listeners, if you know, you're looking at your website, really understand what are you trying to accomplish with it? Are you trying to use it for credibility or lead source? Cause they're, they're going to be ⁓ different, but also be client centric. All of your messaging should be client centric. That last one. of instead of having the about me, about us, your team. Those little things are going to help out. Make sure that you look at your homepage. That's the most important one and, and really spend time on above the fold. does it look, does it feel? it help the potential client understand that you get them and you can help them solve their problems? Try not to use stock images because that doesn't differentiate yourself from everybody else. And look at that wonderful copyright at the bottom because if Jamie gets on your site, she's going to chastise the hell out of you. Colors matter. Make sure that your web developer really understands the importance of colors and goes through that instead of just going, I like black and white. Let's go. You know, because again, that's all about you. It's not about the the client, you know, and make sure that your call to action guides them on the journey on the buying journey and makes it so freaking easy for next step. Don't complicate the hell out of it and ask them for, ⁓ we need this and this and this. Make it easy because the easier it is, the more they're willing to do it, which will then lead to more business. Like so many freaking great. nuggets and especially after you just said depends. So, seriously. Another thing that I see a lot is a sea of sameness. Tell me a little bit more about that. People think it's safe to look like each other. So, you know, I'll ask for, let's see some competitor sites. If you all look the same, we could go back to the scales of justice. If everybody's using that. You're not going to stand out. You don't have to look like a law firm on your web, like on the website. It can, we just did one, a really cool one that doesn't say it. It needs to reflect who your company is. Not who your competitor is. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah, exactly. Don't be like everybody else. Don't that, that sameness is awful. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ God, Jamie. We could talk all day. We could. Huh? We do. But yeah, make it safe. Like, I want it to be safe. I want to stay in my little cocoon, you know, and you're like, that's nice and all, but that's not going to move the needle, as you like to say. Move the needle. And that's what Jamie can do for you. If somebody wants to get a hold of Jamie, if you're listening to this, I'm going to be putting all of her contact information in the show notes. Because if she said it, you'd forget it, you'd move on. It's all going to be there. Reach out to Jamie. Look at her portfolio. I know personally how freaking amazing she is. She has that attention to detail just like you do with your clients. That's the type of person that you're going to need to want on your side. So contact her. And as you can tell, she knows her shit and she's not going to freaking try and shove stuff down your throat. like some of them that are out there. So, Jamie, God, it's been such a pleasure and thank you for doing this and your wisdom. I really appreciate it very, very much. you. That's it for today's episode of Un-Fuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration, learned something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me and remember, the best marketing. is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.