Latest / Design Darlings / Fashion is Art, Design, and Media Machine
Transcript
- Ro Rich: hello Allie Miller: Hello darling, I'm Allie Miller. Ro Rich: And I'm Robin Richardson. Welcome to Design Darlings, the podcast where we truly obsess over what makes, breaks, or bakes a good design in the world. Friends, since the Garden of Eden, people have been wearing clothes And we want to chat about that this week through the lens of the Devil Wears Prada and also the Gala. ⁓ Why the Met Gala? Well, ⁓ it's a really showing ⁓ of some of best designers that we have and the work that they're putting out there. ⁓ I know that we all wear fashion every That's not Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: Met Gala level. Maybe some of you do, which girl snaps, okay. But fashion's a really democratic form of design consumption. Sorry. ⁓ as a total nerd, I the way fashion enters and influences the conversation and trends and things that people do and respond to. So. Allie Miller: If you've ever, you're like me ⁓ you for fun watched 20 minute videos of ⁓ interviewing their lace makers ⁓ France, you might like the Met Gala. If you spend your free time watching Chanel couturiers bead beads onto piece of fabric. Ro Rich: Thanks Allie Miller: You might like the Met Gala. You might like fashion. So yeah, nerd alert. You know, what's interesting too is there's a long standing. This is not novel. This is not 2026. There's a centuries old also between the artist and the benefactor. And it's a fraught relationship, right? Raphael Michelangelo. They all had their wealthy kings and merchants and the upper crust of society funding their art. And, you know, we're gonna get into the Devil Wears Prada as well, but I think there's a through line across all of this, which is the role of money in fashion and the role of money a funder of the maker. ⁓ where do we draw the line of celebrating the artist? vilifying or critiquing the system that funds that artist or is there some middle ground where we have to acknowledge that both exist in an ecosystem. ⁓ we beautiful art, we need the resources to fund that beautiful art and in this context, art being fashion and fashion being art. So, yeah. Ro Rich: you Hmm. So is patronage parasitic or is it symbiotic? Allie Miller: That is a great question. Right? It's a Venn diagram. You know, sometimes it's a circle, sometimes it's a Venn diagram. And then like this, right, this is the fraught relationship of art and commerce. And Ro Rich: Both? Is it a Venn diagram? The Venn diagram is- Yeah. Allie Miller: So I was looking just into the history of fashion ⁓ and the practice of making textiles. And in ninth century, monks in Europe basically created this principle of is known as the modern liberal arts. And it was this way to sort of categorize industries and There were seven, in the 19th century, seven original, what they called the mechanical arts. And one of the first mechanical arts vestarii, I'm gonna say it, vestaria, vestaria, I'm gonna say it's Italian, vestaria, which is tailoring and weaving, right? But it wasn't, it was a working class trade. so even, ⁓ that was alongside agrarian building, militias, merchants, cooking, blacksmithing. So these were all like critical trades that eventually led to guilds that were more about just the making of fashion. But they weren't, they were not like respectable practices, ⁓ These were done out of And then... ⁓ Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie Miller: from the ninth century to now, right? That's changed. But the idea of fashion, ultimately, the way we've categorized making fabrics and wearables has always been seen as a necessary trade for us to just exist, we all wear clothes. We all need to put clothes on our body. Well, most people, unless you, you know. our rebel and don't want to wear clothes, but we all see clothes as a very, at its core, utilitarian object that we need to kind of function in society. And then wear from that to the Met Gala au Couture through the huge spectrum, ⁓ we fall on. Ro Rich: that big old story at work. Well, maybe that story arc though also is beyond functionality, right, of covering the body of protection, of warmth, is royal courts. Once you into the feudal system and you got into sumptuary laws and what colors people could and couldn't wear, what fabrics were allowed and not allowed, you get into accessibility ⁓ Allie Miller: Yeah. Ro Rich: conversation and there's an elevation or representation rather of status based on what you had access to. And I think that's part of the controversy that crops up every year. And the idea that people should focus on other things in the world. Why are we focused on this? I'm not, I'm not being critical of it. I'm, I'm talking more about the, some of the protests that were happening. Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: because there's this idea of access and restricted access people who have a lot of money or they have a lot of access, what are they doing for everyone else? And so should we be celebrating something like couture and high fashion? These are one-off pieces in a lot of cases that people are wearing. I'm not saying I have the answer, but I would say when fashion moves out of function and into this idea of art when fashion moves into higher art form because of the time and money and attention spent on it, people question, should it be spent on this? Should we spend time, money and attention on this? maybe that's part of what makes us human is that there's there and it's... It is an art form. there is a, there is a capacity to escape in that and aspire to this because it's brilliant and beautiful and complex and it makes people feel things. I mean, I think that's why it's one of the most talked about events because people love to love it and girl, they love to hate it and be like, girl, what did she wear? What is this? This is hideous. This is that. I meat dress. certainly not a functional garment in any sense of the word, but the of it was ⁓ ⁓ of a garment, not to last, certainly had intention that talked about and ⁓ people still talk that. ⁓ And when you think about... Allie Miller: No. Ro Rich: ⁓ fashion to convey an idea, then ⁓ it serving its purpose? I would say yes. Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. And, yeah, you know, protesting fashion. Yeah, protest fashion. protest the systems that fund the fashion, protest, we're not gonna sit here and defend all the egregious things that happen in the fashion industry. So I think both can live We can hold two things are ahead at the same time. We can protest the atrocities and the ethical environmental issues, the power structures that fund fashion and art while at the same appreciating uplifting the incredible artisans and crafts people and stylists and makeup artists and you know, set designers and museum curators who do this because nothing else they can think about doing with their life. All they want to do in life is to create thoughtful, beautiful, provocative things that, like you said, make us think about the world differently. And so, with Met Gala, it's easy to throw the baby out of the bathwater and be like, I'm protesting. It's like, or I'm boycotting. Like, yes, boycott if that's what you're passionate about. But also acknowledge that there are true technicians who I think should be applauded for creating beautiful things in the world at a time when that feels like a radical act in and of itself. Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. So the devil is... So... ⁓ Allie Miller: So with that, yeah, let's give the people what they want. We'll do our Delware's product takes. We'll go into our Met Gal best looks. Let's go. I don't know. Ro Rich: Is that what the people want? Y'all don't even know you wanted this surprise. You're getting the Devil Wears product conversation. Surprise, Dave. ⁓ Allie Miller: You're not getting a Met Gala or a Double Words product critique without some PhD level analysis, okay? Ro Rich: I mean, sweetie, that's what the people are here for. They're paying good free money to hear what we think. ⁓ Okay, first of all, I loved it. I know people are complaining about it. It's getting panned in reviews. I don't know why. ⁓ thought it was great and I loved the first movie. It was very different. The movie focused on the grind and being in the office and so you had a much tighter... Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: closer quarters where the characters were interacting and you had a smaller cast and they were interacting on the daily. So you had more pressure building. You had those office conversations. You had those dynamics and those politics always ⁓ up against each other and you got to see that behavior that people wanted to see really that first movie. There's been so much talk in the press around the second one of people being afraid of even ⁓ Allie Miller: Right. Ro Rich: being part of that first film, because they didn't know what Anna would think and how she would react. And so it had no sponsorships. Everyone didn't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole because they were really freaked out. And now this one, ⁓ my gosh, it's got so many brand partnerships and people are talking about it with a wink and a smile. And I love that. That's great that it's been embraced and that, I mean, Anna's even in on it. mean, her, that video they did, she and Meryl Streep, yes, in the elevator was... Allie Miller: Yeah. Right! She's on the cover! Yeah. Ro Rich: so cute and clever. It was fun. Allie Miller: Yeah, I mean and also too like you said the cast was small they were in the office the whole time That was out of necessity. They just didn't have the budget. They only had the budget for three or four sets They didn't have the budget to go to Milan Stanley Tucci didn't get to say all right, we're going to Milan babes Ro Rich: Yeah. Literally. No. I know. Allie Miller: I'm gonna drop all my Italian. When Stanley Tucci was dropping the names of Italian food in Milan, I was like, ⁓ Stanley, you've been waiting your whole career to do this. Ro Rich: Exactly. Well, don't you watch his show, Stanley Tucci in Italy? peaking? Okay. I mean, you're all- Allie Miller: I mean, yeah, it's great. He's like, I'm just going to casually drop my perfect Italian in front of Anne Hathaway in Milan. Yeah. Ro Rich: he's been working on it. I also loved that he was the fairy godmother, the surprise at the end of, you didn't think this job just fell in your lap, did you? I was pleased with that. ⁓ also spoilers. If you haven't seen the movie, sorry, we're dropping, ⁓ dropping maybe some spoilers in your left and right. But Allie Miller: Yeah. left and but were talking about the critical view. So I just looked up at Letterbox. That's my Bible of movie reviews. Right now it's a 3.4 on Letterbox, which for context, most Oscar movies hover around four out of five on Letterbox. And 3.4 ⁓ is a respectable, what I call chick flick score on Letterbox. ⁓ So like, I mean, again, Ro Rich: Mm. Allie Miller: It was fun. Like there was never, to Miranda, there wasn't anything groundbreaking about movie, ⁓ but went with like a few girlfriends and we had a lovely time, ⁓ No. ⁓ Ro Rich: There was no dead time there. was never bored where I thought, where are they going with this or what are they doing with this? I think it's zoomed out to have a global perspective because fashion is a global institution ⁓ ⁓ magazine itself also has global I mean, they've got offices all around the world. as much Miranda was the villain, I'm air quoting villain in the first one. Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: She wasn't the villain in this one. And I wondered if people wanted to see that tension between she and Hathaway, like a takedown, but really they had to, they had to buddy up. the girls had to come together to make things happen because there's this new focus and the villain ⁓ this sort of tech takeover where there's a focus on profits and the algorithm and clicks over substance and no matter how many bygones, whatever has happened in the past, you can't hold onto those grudges if you want to move forward and go into the future. So there is that constant tension between how we used to do things and how things are happening now. Like we talked about Nigel looking at, yeah, looking at the film sheet going, ⁓ I need to do this for an algorithm now. ⁓ my gosh. Allie Miller: old versus new. I loved that moment. of ⁓ this ⁓ time that we'll talk about more at the Met Gala, but this tension of technology versus making modern versus old, ⁓ cetera, et cetera. But Anne Hathaway is having her one of her many mental breakdowns of like, everything's falling apart and ⁓ my gosh, the sky's falling. Like we need to fix the situation. And Stanley Tucci is just so calmly with his magnifier. ⁓ looking at the film strip in the same way that editors would have been doing this for decades prior. And him not looking at this film strip on a computer felt just, it was like the last thing he could control to say, I can control my process and how I ⁓ select photo. Now what happens after I publish that online? How many clicks does it get? can't control how people are gonna respond to it, but. Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie Miller: he can control his craft and how he does his work. loved that, it's such a tiny detail, but I just loved that moment of him. Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Well, also there's a distinction between your process and consumption. fashion is consumed through media in so many ways. I mean, the Met Gala is being consumed via visual medium because girl, I'm not going out to buy one those couture garments. And the way to access this world of high fashion is through media. And used to be print, it was the glossies and that is shifting to this constant influx of that consumption over and over, 20, literally 24 hours a day. Girl, that feed does not shut off. So Stanley Tucci sitting there working through his process, that doesn't need to change, but the idea that things need to put out there more quickly to be consumed and then forgotten in five minutes is really... I think it stops people when we're wondering like how fast do we need to go to end we need constant feed of consumption of whatever it is, ideas, fashion, you name it, right? just this constant feed. And so does that feel at any point hurried or oversaturated where you're like, all right, how many ⁓ things can I consume Allie Miller: Yeah. And there's the montage where Andy's writing all of her pieces and it seems like she's sort of churning out content as fast as she can, but still trying to do it in a really thoughtful, provocative, journalistic way. her, the teams, the higher ups are like, this is all trash because it's not getting clicks. Not that the actual work is trash. We see you're producing stuff as fast as you can, but none of it matters because... Ro Rich: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ain't gettin' clicks, babe. No clicks. ⁓ my god. Allie Miller: It's not going viral. Yeah. ⁓ can we talk about the last supper scene? Ro Rich: You know, I saw some reviews saying that was no Cerulean monologue and everyone was so mad about it because in the first one Miranda dismantled fashion for folks, which was great because that's an education that people don't ⁓ You've got to go behind the scenes of understanding the fashion and media consumption relationship. And Last Supper monologue to me was her Cerulean monologue because we've gone from talking about not just fashion but the ecosystem in which fashion exists. So she's there talking about humans and about how they betray each other and this idea that... my gosh. There's many, I have so many words inside. Hold on. ⁓ The versus new. She's like, nothing is really new. People, empires rise, empires fall, people betray each other. Allie Miller: got this. Ro Rich: but we have to keep moving forward. And she's hinting at Andy, she's foreshadowing, she's dropping hints like, girl, I know what you did, you've been having conversations, I know what you're doing. Which is very omniscient of her, which we love, because we always know Miranda knows what's going on. But also, we knew ⁓ Andy was to write this book about her, and that's being set up in this ⁓ plot line. But she's also saying it doesn't really matter. that was the turning point too of, all right, everybody needs to work together, even though Andy's in the background trying to work on Miranda's behalf. It's that you have to move forward because people are gonna get their feelings hurt, toes are gonna get stepped on. But if you really wanna make a difference, you have to come together and make it happen. That's so lame. That sounds like a cheerleading movie. Like come together and make it happen. ⁓ You have to your resources. ⁓ my gosh, you just strategize and figure it out. And I mean, you know, you saw what happened, but yeah. And then, and then you're right. I love the scene when she walks out into the Galleria Vittorio. Allie Miller: Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's just a great juxtaposition of again, the old and the new, the modern and the business and the commerce, because you're going from, you're in the scene in the monastery where the Last Supper is, which is, you don't know, the Last Supper is a fresco in a monastery. then ⁓ very next scene, ⁓ is in, if you've ever seen any, if you Google Milan, Italy, this is the first picture that's gonna pop up. Ro Rich: Yes. Allie Miller: and it is the, the luxury shopping mall of Milan, essentially. And so she's in the of it, and she's surrounded by Gucci and Prada ⁓ and Versace ⁓ like that is her church. In a way. Ro Rich: So you go from one church to another, you go from one monastery to Italy's literal oldest shopping arcade filled with these luxury fashion house brands that are lit up. The neon lights of that was a really great, beautiful juxtaposition. Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. Right. And I think sometimes, when you go to church, people go to church oftentimes when they are at a moment of crisis. You're grappling with who you are, your decisions, your path, their morality. Like, fashion is Miranda's church. ⁓ And so she's this moment as a way to... try to both reckon with the system that she is grappling with, at the same time finding solace and peace in it, before she has the courage to then go make her next decision. ⁓ Ro Rich: It's also about ritual. Religion is so much about ritual. And so there is the ritual of her world and fashion and the magazine and the way that things were, and that ritual is now changing. And so there's also that. consideration of yes, there are higher powers at play, literally, in the And so she's looking at these powers that she had a different, she was a different player in at some point in time. And when Emily Blunt, when she's and she's the director Dior, ⁓ And she says, well, we used to need you and now you need us because you need our money, you need our sponsorships. That power dynamic has also been shifted and flipped over. So now Miranda's looking up these brands or she's standing there at Palazzo and she's, or the arcade, excuse me. And there is a symbiosis there and there's a relationship, but it's also, it's changing. That dynamic is, she's in a moment of. Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: don't think existential crisis, she's ⁓ a moment. ⁓ Allie Miller: Mm-hmm. She's reckoning, grappling. Dup. Ro Rich: Yes, because the power dynamics are shifting around her. That global technology has come in and is shifting the way that media was produced and consumed. And now she has to figure out how will that next chapter look for her and how can she maintain her relevance, frankly, because she was the tastemaker and the purveyor and she called the shots. And now the world around her is shifting where she's not the person calling the shots anymore. And she's got to figure out how to carve her path through that. which course changes the power dynamic. I think that's why she's not the villain. The villain is this changing tide that's rushing and she's got to figure out how to surf that wave. Allie Miller: Yeah. In this, I'm about to give away a major spoiler. So skip ahead if you don't want a major spoiler. ⁓ Even at the very end when we find out the sale has switched from BJ Novak's character to Lucy Liu's character, what I thought was just so interesting, just feels like callously just how business feels sometimes where these characters, they've spent all this time and energy putting together this pitch for the sale for Emily Blunt's character ⁓ it's all thoughtful and da da da. And then BJ Novak gets the call and within seconds he's like this, yeah? Ro Rich: Mm. Allie Miller: Okay, great, and in seconds, you can just totally, it's all about money, you can just change your mind. All of this beautiful prose and journeys that we've just gone on, doesn't even cross B.J. Novak's mind. It's about, will this deal make me more money than the other deal? Great, we're going with that deal. Ro Rich: Well, it became a transaction. that's thing chasing through the is these different transactions and who gets to be the master, the master transaction maker gets to be the person who decides who to hand the tastemaker keys to. And that was another part of people being upset about the Met Gala of who, ⁓ wait a minute, who's giving people the to the castle. And people had feelings about that. They still have feelings about that. Allie Miller: with that, Ro Rich: The Met Gala happened yesterday. ⁓ Allie Miller: Should we do a very quick little history of the Met Gala for those of you who are novice to the Met Gala? So Met Gala happens every year. It's the first Monday in May. Used to happen actually in the fall. Ro Rich: sure. Allie Miller: but in recent times, the first Monday in May. And it is a annual fundraiser for the Metropolitan Museum of Arts Costume Institute. Costume defined broadly, not just like Broadway costumes, but just costume is clothing, wearables, accessories, things we put on our body. First one was in 1946. And then I think the modern Met Gala as we know it really became a thing in about 1995 when Anna Wintour started becoming the chair. So every year, typically what happens is she works with a curator of the Met, Andrew Bolton. and they pick a theme. there's always the theme of the exhibit and then there is the theme of the gala itself. So this year, the theme, costume art and so the theme of the actual exhibit is all about costume wearables it applies to the body. So how does fashion how does clothing represent the body help us understand our bodies how does art create a dialogue with the body. And what also is really important and significant about this year is costume has been in the basement floor of the Met Museum in New York. ⁓ And this the first year they opened up a brand new wing where the costume institute is now on the main floor. ⁓ They're physically moving it out of the basement and putting fashion in location that gives it respect and prominence. But one thing that was really interesting, a friend sent me this article. So they think that by about 2030, if not 2028, the... Fashion Institute's endowment might be large enough where it can actually become self-funding. that's a really interesting question because then it says, do we even need to continue having the gala if we no longer need to have this massive annual fundraiser? Ro Rich: Mm. Well, it could because it started in 1948 and Eleanor Lambert, who was a fashion publicist and also invented the best dress list. She did found it as a way to fund what was a really it was like a scrappy underfunded department in the Met. And it was influential in fashion circles, but it was really invisible outside of that. and that was from 1948 to 71. And then Diana Vreeland, Ms. Diana Vreeland. over in 72 ⁓ she was of course a legendary editor of Harper's Bazaar and Vogue. She became a consultant to the Costume Institute and she transformed the exhibitions into like theatrical ⁓ and the gala followed suit so she's the one that upped the vibes like hardcore. So was the one who saw this as art worthy of a museum. which was actually radical at the time. And so the themes became more ambitious, the crowds got bigger, and Diana Vreeland kind of invented the idea that fashion deserved the intellectual seriousness as painting or sculpture within that space. And so that's important to consider as a philosophy. Then Anna Wintour, yes, took over in 1995 and she, she it on like steroids. then she turned the red carpet into that media event. So she also introduced the themed dress code, which instructed the guests to interpret a concept, which is what transformed the gala a party into a design brief. And that shift is what... all of a sudden had celebrities and their designers engaging with an idea, not just showing up looking expensive. So that is a really critical turning point, I would say. And so, yes, so the theme becomes your brief, whether that's camp or heavenly bodies or guilt and glamour. Now the designers and the celebrities or their clients, you should say they might not be celebrities yet. They're navigating the interpretation, the literalism with the abstraction, like homage and appropriation, in very real time. some people nail it, some people don't, and the gap between the two is what gets clicks, so... ⁓ also one those times where fashion criticism reaches mass audiences, because there's this morning after discourse about who did well, who didn't do well. Allie Miller: I'm heavily nodding my head. Ro Rich: And there's a public design critique, even if people don't really frame it that way. And it's this barometer of cultural power. So like who gets invited, who sits where, which we don't get to see. We don't get to see who sits where, in which designers get the biggest stars to signal what's happening in the industry. So yeah, we'll see what happens if we're not gonna need that fundraiser anymore. Will the Met Gala not be needed? Gasp, I don't know about that. Allie Miller: I don't want to think about a world where the Met Gala doesn't exist. Not to be dramatic, but it is my Super Bowl. I sit with multiple TVs and charcuterie and I'm taking notes and I'm making mood boards. This is for four hours. I am locked in in front of every digital screen I have. Ro Rich: I need to go back to something. Sure. That is so funny. When did, I said this earlier, Lady Gaga wear the meat dress? Was that to the Grammys or was that to the gala? Allie Miller: MTV Music Video Awards 2008? Ro Rich: Okay. Allie Miller: 2009? Check me on that. 2010. I want to see 2010. Ro Rich: 2010, the raw meat dress. Okay. I ⁓ want to say that think the red, the Met red carpet ended up, not to say that we didn't watch people in the red carpet going to award shows and things like that, but I feel like the heightened performative aspect of it has translated into all these other red carpets. Allie Miller: I mean, when did we start critiquing red carpet culture? I think you have Joan Rivers in Fashion Police, That's early 2000s. You ⁓ when did wear her swan dress? It really wasn't until think even you know, Britney Spears, Justin ⁓ wearing their Canadian tuxedo outfit. felt like award shows ⁓ even pre-2000s. ⁓ Ro Rich: ⁓ good. Allie Miller: People looked beautiful, but we weren't... people wore beautiful things on the red carpet, ⁓ we weren't necessarily hyper locked it the next And it seemed pre-2000s, people were to red wanting to look beautiful and glamorous, but people weren't dressing up to become a moment. Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie Miller: where I think it's a recent phenomena ⁓ are dressing to make a viral moment. Ro Rich: Mm. Well, and you're right on that. So I just, did some quick type searching. And so the actual red carpet is ancient-ish and it dates back to Greek antiquity. In the practice of rolling out red fabric for dignitaries goes back centuries. Hollywood adopted it for premieres as early as the twenties, but it was just ceremonial. It was a photo op. It wasn't a conversation. You were correct, madam. Points for you. Pratik's entertainment started in the 90s and the real pivot happened in 94, 95 when two forces collided. Joan Rivers and her daughter, Melissa, launched Fashion Police, or really its predecessor, the E Network's live Oscar red carpet coverage. And this essentially invented the format of real time opinionated fashion commentary for a mass TV audience. Rivers was brutal and witty. Oh my gosh. Allie Miller: Mm. Brutal. Some people are calling for her to, like people are saying, we need another Joan Rivers. And I'm like, we're all too, reactionary to actual critique. But her critique was also just sometimes brutal. anyways, yeah. Ro Rich: It was, well, she didn't have any of the deference. mean, she, she treated it like a design competition with winners and losers. Like who were you wearing? And then she would judge who you were wearing. but this was also pre like the internet was being bored. This was nascent internet years and early celebrity gossip culture created the spaces where ⁓ it didn't matter if you were, you could go and weigh in. and then it became witty writing and people were out there on websites and there was this big appetite for fashion. analysis that was informed and accessible. And so you also have in the 90s celebrities wearing more designer fashion, in story driven ways and stylists as a profession exploded then. So then you go from having fashion as something you're wearing and something that ⁓ you're, it a statement. And that is really, ⁓ it's like strategy. So that's really kind of interesting. to consider and the red carpet is really one of the only forms of design criticism with mainstream reach because guess what else just happened? Milan Design Week, which we need to do a whole episode on, Design Week, but that's not, unless you're in a design algorithm chamber, babe, you're probably not seeing Milan Design Week coming up in your feed people talking about it in the same way. ⁓ like sort of... Allie Miller: Yes. Ro Rich: Critique or experience I should say is much more limited it's not as widely covered in the way that that fashion is Allie Miller: also want to bring up there's an interesting, we talked about fashion as critique thinking about Joan Rivers as a stepping off point. We also see parody of fashion in the early 2000s, because I think part of critique is also parody and thinking specifically about the Bjork Swan dress and also Gwyneth Paltrow's whenever she was nominated for Shakespeare in Love. So like 98, 2002. Don't quote me on the date. But Gwyneth Paltrow was stunning pink gown. then just a few years later, maybe the next year, there was either Matt Stone or Trey Parker, I think it was Trey Parker ⁓ the MTV Movie Awards, wore a parody of Gwyneth Paltrow's gown. And then you obviously have people ripping off Bjork's dress So also too, have, like I think we really see this, the red carpet becoming more than just the clothes, but the cultural moment and the conversation ⁓ we then in the zeitgeist afterwards. ⁓ That all in the early ⁓ 2000s. Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. anybody with an internet connection, if you had like a blog, you could be somebody who's had an and people could talk about... They had very strong opinions about whether or not a gown worked and what that means. so architecture criticism, industrial design criticism, those things barely exist in the public. in the public eye. Allie Miller: No one's critiquing a coffee maker unless you are a real design nerd. Ro Rich: Sweetie, right? If we're gonna go hard on Alessi, like come on. But also the dark side of it is that it became a way to have body commentary dressed up as fashion And so talking about does this garment succeed is not the same as does it meet our standards. that's where it gets tricky too of what are we commenting Allie Miller: What you said made me think of something. I was watching a Vogue behind the scenes of Emma Chamberlain and her stylist this year getting dressed, which, spoiler, Emma Chamberlain far away was the winner. Like she was the first dress I saw. She was, could have been the last dress. Like she won the Met Gala. But styling her and they're trying to decide what jewelry to wear, what hair to wear. And... Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. rocked it, killed it, slaved and the best. Allie Miller: Her stylist says to the camera, you know, we'll try all these combinations, but we're gonna take a bunch of photos. Because ultimately this just comes down to what photographs the best. And I just thought that was so, that just like boop, that just like, I logged that back in my brain. Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie Miller: because they're thinking about that. And she's a master at viral marketing and making internet content, so she really understands that, and her audience is the perception of that really well. him to just so directly be like, yeah, we're gonna make these decisions based on what looks best in photograph. Ro Rich: Well, and that's the algorithm click, right? So that's people complained about the Devil Wears Prada not being the second film about not being enough about fashion. Guess what, babe? It's talking about the journalism and the fashion, journalism and the craft and the content, ⁓ who understand the content about it going away and being superseded by the need for clicks. And so ⁓ is being judged as an image and not an object. And so we're treating the garments as visual signals. Who are you wearing? heard that a lot last night. What do you like? What does it say about you? ⁓ it photograph well? But the design is about the relationship between the object and the body ⁓ space and time. a chair isn't a good chair because it photographs well, right? ⁓ I you can, ⁓ there's beautiful chairs out there. The butterfly chair is a great example. But it's a good chair first because of how it supports weight, how long it holds up. how it feels after sitting in it for two hours. Fashion deserves the same critique or scrutiny, but doesn't really get it. So when we start to ask object and design questions about the garments, is it constructed? Why is this fabric used for this silhouette? Then that opens up a different conversation, which felt to be missing a little bit yesterday, which I know you and I are very passionate about and It cool to hear Zach Posen actually speak with ⁓ Kendall Jenner about how he was inspired by what he made. And so that was really cool because we got a peek into his process and how he was sitting in one night and he was inspired by the Gap t-shirt. mean, like that was amazing that the dress was made mostly out of Gap t-shirts that he twisted and dyed and knitted around that lace bodice, that leather corset that she was wearing beneath. Allie Miller: Yeah. Ro Rich: And talked about Nike and the winged victory and how people must have experienced that statue when they saw it. And ⁓ wanted bring that into the design of the object as well. Girl, that is what I am living for. That is what I want to talk more about. Those are the things I want to talk about the design and the design process and those designers and what they're crafting for people. So to me, That was One of my favorite design moments of the night, because it gave us a look into all of that, about the construction and what was happening for the inspiration going from idea into actual design into, here it is. I had this idea and now here it is physically in front of you. Like hell yeah. Allie Miller: Yeah, if I were in charge of the Met Gala, I would just make a mandatory rule that no celebrity is allowed to walk on the red carpet unless the designer is with them and can actually explain the garment. Or if you have to sign a waiver for your left kidney to basically say, will remember these construction talking points when asked about my garment. Yeah, was just so. ⁓ There were so many times where they'd be like, what's your inspiration? ⁓ know, vitality. I want to just look good. Kors is a good example where I think Anne Hathaway would have been able to actually explain her garment without him there, but that was another. Ro Rich: Oh, I loved- I didn't see that- did they speak? Because I missed that, but I loved that she and he walked the carpet together. I was like, yay! Okay, Allie Miller: yes, they walk together. And he just gave this really explanation of. how he was inspired by Greek ceramics mythology. And then Michael Coors had a longstanding friendship with an artist in New York. ⁓ he had this artist hand paint the designs on her dress. And he thought about the patterns of the beading and the trim and the construction. And it just was really lovely to hear ⁓ there was a designer with that garment or with that person talking about the construction of the garment, it just was... you know, lovely, was just a way to like kind of go inside their brain and understand their thought process. And then it just felt disappointing when a celebrity wasn't able to actually articulate that. It does such a disservice to the people who literally spend hundreds, if not like a thousand hours. beating these garments and then celebrity can't even remember three talking points. ⁓ they about Sabrina Carpenter and she's like, I'm Sabrina and the film is Sabrina. Like, yes, you're not wrong. You are wearing film strip of Sabrina and you are Sabrina. But did you also notice that your dress had a giant bustle? Bustles are a common undergarment that creates structure and exaggerate the body. And that's a main feature of the exhibit. Also, does she know that in referencing Sabrina, she's referencing Edith Head, she's referencing Givenchy, she's referencing Balenciaga, she's referencing this ⁓ massive lineage of designers and craftsmen. didn't say any of that. And I'm like, guys, this is major fashion history. ⁓ If we are drowning our celebrities this really important context, Please do not ask them how long it took them to get ready this morning. Don't ask them if they're wearing underwear, okay? Ask them. Tell me about the importance of Edith Head ⁓ outfit, Sabrina. Tell me the importance of bustles in your outfit, please. Using analog film versus digital film to create your outfit, Sabrina. And I love Sabrina. I will go to bat for her. But I was very disappointed. Ro Rich: Yeah. Swedish. Allie Miller: at how little she was able to articulate her outfit. Thank you. I'm done. Ro Rich: Sweetie, she don't know. She don't know. There's no such thing as digital film either, but I love that you said the difference between analog film is is a digital film. Allie Miller: Yeah, that's right. Digital film doesn't exist. You can't create it. But you know you Ro Rich: No, and I, you know, okay, so there's like function and constraint. Everything in design has function and constraint. The garment has to work in three dimensions. It has to survive motion and respond to gravity. And it has the idea that something is good, there's construction. And then there's the precedent of it. So fashion, like all design, has to operate through a conversation with history. And so a designer who references a 1950s Balenciaga silhouette isn't being derivative, they might be arguing with it. They might be updating it, testing whether it still holds in a new material or a new cultural moment, which is what architects do also with historical forms and bring, you know, neo-Gothic. Okay. So recognizing the historical discourse and the precedent is what separates someone who sees clothes from someone who reads them. So you want a moment of, I wanna read the clothes and understand, I want you to tell us about them. And instead we just got people who were seeing outfits and not really able to talk about what made them special or unique other than I really liked it. Or I asked someone to make me something that, you know, how to throw away concept or throw away thought. And so there's so much more depth there. We know there's a lot of depth into it. because are designers and we know designers and you're like, girl designers don't do anything without intention or obsessive attention to detail. So that designer in working with that medium and working with film, you have to solve a problem, sweetie. We don't make clothes out of film for a reason because there is no, there's not a fabric precedent for saying, you know what, we need to use this film to make a bodice. ⁓ is not happening. Allie Miller: Bye. Ro Rich: So being able to get from that concept and use that medium into a finished product is really amazing. so fashion is one of the only disciplines where the end user, so that that boo going down the runway is also the display medium. They're animating it and people are reading it in real time. And we see the psychology of the garment very differently than folks who see it in a, just, I'm wearing this kind of sense because it's psychology and sociology and material science and manufacturing. Like we're doing it all at the same time. Allie Miller: so in a scenario, if you just went into a store or if you worked with a designer and you bought a piece because it felt beautiful to you, like we can buy a piece of art because it speaks to us. I don't need to know everything about the artist to appreciate and wear or consume beautiful things. said, I do think we need to these celebrities and, you know, as Bernie Sanders, I once again ask you red carpet MCs, please learn how to ask an articulate question. These celebrities understand the moment that this will have on their career. The Met Gala is not just them going into a store and buying a dress I think they have a responsibility to like actually try to understand the garment they're wearing. so that they can speak to it and actually show appreciation and regard. maybe they also understand that people's attention spans are so quick that ⁓ consuming audience isn't care that Sabrina Carpenter didn't know the deeper history of her design. Ro Rich: Well, I think you're speaking to the quick ask of do I like this? And you started off by saying, I can walk into a shop and buy something because I like it and appreciate it. we're moving like, do I like this into genuine design thinking, which is understanding the intent and the context and how well the solution, which is the garment ⁓ matches. It's not design problem in this instance, but it's the ⁓ the assignment, which in this case was the Met Gala and the art. art is fashion. Yes, it was the assignment and instead we got a lot of, ⁓ I like this. Do you this? How do you like this? This is so cute. Instead of talking about the design assignment. And some people did. Some people talked about why this was art or how it was art. You're like, how are you inspired by this? But it could have gone a couple clicks deeper, which the real designers and understand the way the designers are thinking, know, Ray Kawakubo, I, Mr. Van Herpen, even Early McQueen, Virgil Abloh, like they were legible, more legible to people once we started to ask the design questions rather than taste questions. And that's what's separating a lot of things in good design as well. There's taste, which might be questionable and then there's good design. And some people produce expensive, pretty things that can be incredibly useful too. So again, so many, there's so many Venn diagrams, Venn diagramming right now in my brain that... ⁓ Allie Miller: Right. Yeah. Because they're not just these, you know, people walking in these fashions. They're not just like a model on a runway who just gets told, hey, put this on. these celebrities, ⁓ are, they're ambassadors, They're working. They're here to work. And is it your responsibility ⁓ as somebody is doing this for career purposes in many ⁓ instances to have your points, ⁓ Know your lines. Ro Rich: Hmm. Well, when you know more about the design and the designers, it becomes more legible when we ask those design questions to people on the carpet instead of the taste questions. And so it helps everybody have broader context and it moves us from understanding something is being expensive and pretty. ⁓ Now we have design literacy, which is one of my favorite things ever because now literate to why something matters or why it's useful or why it ⁓ or relevant. And it's not just, I like this or I don't like this. You get some gravitas to it. And so that framing is the between looking at something at the Met Gala and going, ⁓ I like that or I don't like that because it suits my taste or it doesn't. versus look at the design of that and how it Does answer the mail? Does it answer the assignment or the design brief? And that's what you and I have been talking about probably for the last 24 hours now, girl. That's That's ⁓ it. Allie Miller: Mm, the text threat. It was hot. It was pipin'. You know, and I think where I sort of excuse the mandate to be, you you have to have an encyclopedic knowledge of this entire house's fashion history, is when it does feel like the person wearing the garment a deeper or personal connection to it. So again, going back to Emmer Chamberlain, ⁓ was wearing Mugler, ⁓ I for... At least for me, I don't know for you. I immediately thought of the Mugler fall 1997 piece. I forget the exact name of it, but it was the finale look and it's sort of this looks like this monster coming out of the ocean. It like a yellow belly and the gradient. it, for me, it felt kind of very spot on. like, oh, it's the Mugler house is referencing their code and their history. but when Emma talked about it, she talked a lot of just about her biography. Her parents were artists. She always grew up Ro Rich: Mmm. Allie Miller: being a maker, it looked and felt like paint being draped across her body. that was one where I'm like, yeah, okay, Emma, I'm gonna give you a pass on this. Like you don't need to know. that this color palette hearkens back to this collection from 30 years ago, because you really, you have a very personal connection to how this was designed for you and what this says about you and your history and your family. there's gray area. like ⁓ Rihanna, I laughed hard. course she's the last one. She's always ⁓ gonna show up when Vogue camera feeds in. She's the last one to show up. But. ⁓ they interviewed her and they're like, what's your inspiration, Rihanna? And she's well, you know, I come from Barbados and I want it to feel like an oyster coming out of the sea. And only Rihanna would be like, ⁓ wanna feel like a barnacle. I wanna feel like an oyster that's covered in crusty barnacles, ⁓ I want you to make this in this gorgeous metallic fabric. want to, she literally said, I wanna look like a crustacean. And I was like, you know what? Ro Rich: No. Allie Miller: I love that for you, because it's biographical, it's personal. Did the design house have some deeper meaning behind the design? Maybe. But I like that you gave us an answer more than just want to look pretty. You were like, no, I want to look like a sexy barnacle. We love it. Ro Rich: I mean, the hours it must have taken though to place the jewels on that garment, like the bodice, oh my gosh, like the time and effort that had to go into this. I mean, she's the queen of the sea, that's for sure. that's one of the things folks asked also last night. Tell us how you worked with the designer for what inspires you and what matters to you. If the sea is art to Rihanna, hell yes, girl. then be the best, she's literally the most beautiful oyster probably anyone has ever seen. And it worked because that. Allie Miller: Yeah. Ro Rich: I mean, isn't Mother Nature the greatest work of art? Like, let's get cheesy for a minute. Allie Miller: Yeah, and we as women, we creatures, came out of the sea, you know? love, sure, there's beautiful poetry in that. Yeah, we are art. Ro Rich: I love that. It's very generous of you to give people a pass on the red carpet for not knowing everything when you're like, I'll give people a pass. That's hilarious. ⁓ Allie Miller: I just want you to that I'm not completely brutal. Again, if you have a very deep connection with the art and you can articulate it, I will be more forgiving. But if you give me nothing, I will not. I will not give you a pass. Ro Rich: only. us. Wow, I didn't even know you were coming for people like that. And now you're forgiving people at the end of this episode? Allie Miller: Mm. No, I didn't forgive, no, no, I only forgave people who could articulate an intention beyond, you know, whatever some of these people were saying. Hailey Bieber confusing YSL with E. Klein Blue, you know? Ro Rich: I died, you know, I texted you. I was like, ⁓ no, sweetie. Allie Miller: I also like to have what I call like a quirky girl list. Where she just wants to be funny and quirky. It's just how much did you commit to the bit? So, Ro Rich: You are so funny. All right. I thought, I thought Bunny ⁓ dressed up old Bad Bunny ⁓ threw me for a- ⁓ Allie Miller: He was on my quirky girl list. He was on the quirky girl list for me. Loved it. Yeah. Ro Rich: Yes, talk about a quirky girl. That was just really funny and I mean, he's so clever. I could see him referencing just life as being beautiful and aging is being artful in and of itself. So I was ⁓ really, really delighted. ⁓ when they talked to Cher, she was like, listen, my first time at Gala, I was practically naked and now everyone's kind of naked and no one cares anymore. I love Cher. ⁓ Allie Miller: Ugh. Ro Rich: Always love sharing what she wears, because I think that she's just an icon and she's timeless, generally speaking, so we Allie Miller: and then might the ultimate quirky the queen of costumes we got to just Give it up for Heidi Klum Dress as a literal freaking marble statue She said Ro Rich: ⁓ my gosh. Bye. Allie Miller: paid my dues, I don't need to look hot. I'm gonna look weird and freaky and y'all are gonna love it. And we did. Yeah. Ro Rich: It was amazing, literally going as a statue. It was just, it was so... Allie Miller: She's see me as a worm. Now you're going to see me as a morning statue. Ro Rich: as statue worm basically is what that was ⁓ my gosh if she was a statue worm it was it was like the next step up from that and I dying Allie Miller: Yeah. A statue worm. Yeah, I saw some comment online that was like, her eyes look weird. And I was like, really? That's what you took away from this? This woman is covered in silicone. And Reddit user 12345, you're saying that her eyes look weird? stop it. Just stop it. Close your computer. Ro Rich: Yes. Listen This is right. Everyone gets to say something everyone gets to have an opinion about what they think They get to leave it in the comments ⁓ it's It's whole thing. I would like to know too, what do people want to know about fashion? And what else do they want to understand about fashion as design? Because I'm sure we will do ⁓ more topics episodes talking about fashion and design because they're besties, they ⁓ hands and down the street. But as we unpack more about design of everyday objects and of everyday life, Fashion is clearly part of that. So get weird about toasters and we'll continue to get weird and detailed about things that we wear as well. Allie Miller: All right, well Robin, this has been delightful in every possible way. There's no one that I would rather gab and rant and about, you know, the gala, the gala and fashion ⁓ ⁓ So been lovely and ⁓ had great time. So thank you ⁓ and until time. Ro Rich: Thank you. Allie Miller: All right. bye. Ro Rich: Yes, more design darling. We'll talk soon. Bye bye.