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#045 Jason Flom with Vanessa Gathers · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: I hadn't done anything wrong.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward.
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today, I have two very special guests, and
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: you'll learn more about that surely, but first I'm going
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: to introduce them. Vanessa Gathers is our star today.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Just months after the Crown Heights riots back in nineteen
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: ninety one, Gathers was called in for questioning for robbery
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: and the beating of an elderly man inside of his
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Crown Heights apartment. The victim fell into a coma then died.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: The case was classified a homicide. That's when controversial former
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: NYPD detective Louis Scarcella took over the case. Five years later,
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: Scarcella reinterviewed Gathers and said she made a full confession.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Gathers was convicted on that confession alone. The former detective
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: is in the middle of several cases where people went
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: to prison for crimes they did not commit.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: D A.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Thompson and his team have already exonerated seventeen men. Gathers
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: is the eighteenth, the first woman. Right now, the DA's
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: office is looking into at least one hundred other cases.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Fifty eight year old Vanessa Gatherers, who will no longer
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: be labeled a convicted felon after ten years in prison
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: for manslaughter, Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson is expected to
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: vacate her conviction.
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: We're going to take a step to not only vacate
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: misgathers conviction, but to give her her good name back.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: Vanessa, welcome to the show. Thank you, and her badass
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: attorney is here as well. Lisa Cahill, Welcome to Ronful Conviction.
• 2:42
  Speaker 6: Happy to be here.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: So, Vanessa, let's go back to when life was simpler, right,
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: because before this crazy incident happened, you were living basically
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: a normal life like anyone else. Right. Yes, were you
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: in a lot of trouble with the laws? Reason that
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: they would have ever suspected you of being involved in
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: a cold blooded murder, a terrible beating death, not at all?
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: What were you doing? What was your life like? Where'd
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: you grow up?
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: I grew up in Jersey City, in North Carolina, and
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: then I moved to New York in seventy nine and
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: I started working. I was working in Manhattan doing what
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: I worked for, Gristities. I worked for a lawyer when
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: I first arrived to New York City, So.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: Just finding your way doing different jobs whatever.
• 3:32
  Speaker 7: I stayed with Gristities for quite some time.
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: The original job I had was working for a lawyer,
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: a criminal lawyer, and I was just doing statements of
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: fouling and typing up notes. Things got slow, so later
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: on I found a job with Cristiitis. He let me
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: stay until I found something better.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: So you came to New York, like most people do.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: I guess, to pursue your dreams and find your way.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: And you were finding your way, things were going okay.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: Do you have a family when this came down?
• 4:03
  Speaker 7: Yes, my family was in Jersey. I had a daughter.
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: This case stems out of a murder that happened in
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: nineteen ninety one. And there's a lot of things that
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: are unusual about your case. But there are also a
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: lot of things that we see that are common in
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: wrongful convictions, including a false confession, which I think everyone
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: is fascinated by it and terrified of. I know, I am.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: But in your case, this was a murder of a
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: guy named Michael Shaw, I think right, Yes, And he
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: was a guy who was murdered in nineteen ninety one.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: He was beaten to death by three women. Again pretty
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: unusual circumstance. And the reason we know he was beaten
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: to death by three women is because he lived long
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: enough to tell the tale. He died in the hospital. Yes,
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: so originally you were living in the area. Did you
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: know about the crime?
• 4:50
  Speaker 7: No, not at the time. No, I did not. I
• 4:53
  Speaker 7: found out all that information later on.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: And how did you first become aware that this. Did
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: you know the victim?
• 4:59
  Speaker 7: I didn't know him, per se.
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: I just knew that he was like a picture cuss
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: man that stayed in the window. He set by the
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: window all the time because I used to walk my
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: dog around the block.
• 5:10
  Speaker 7: But I didn't know his name. I didn't know him.
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: From time to time he would ask me to come
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: over to the window and would I get him a
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: pack of cigarettes, which I did because I walked around
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: the block and I walked my dog back and I
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: just passed it to.
• 5:23
  Speaker 7: Him through the window.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: So he lived on the first floor, Yes, And so
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: when he was murdered, the word must have gotten around
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: the neighborhood. And you first heard about it from a detective,
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: is that right?
• 5:35
  Speaker 7: Yes?
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: And how'd that come about? Because it's weird because you
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: weren't arrested until many years later when the case was cold.
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: And then you actually drew a terrible straw or bad
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: break what every gonna call it, because you got in
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: the crosshairs of a guy who we know now is
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: one of the worst detectives in the history of this
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: country in terms of the damage that he did to
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: an entire burrow. Really, how he wrecked havoc on so
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: many people in so many cases, and a whole system.
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: So how did it come about that you first encountered detectives, Garcella.
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: I believe I was walking my dog at the time,
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: and I mean Detective scuss Celliated his partner Shamil approached
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: me and asked me about the incident, and I said,
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: I didn't know. Actually I didn't even know the man's name.
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: I didn't know who he was. I just know him
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: by sight, you know, from sitting in the window. That's
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: all I knew about this individual. But then later on
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: after that incident, I didn't see the man anymore. After
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: a while, you know, I was still walk my dog,
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: but the man was not there in the window anymore.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: So they approached you on the street, yes, And were
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: they friendly? Were they hostel? Did they put you in cops?
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: How did this whole?
• 6:50
  Speaker 7: They were friendly. They just asked me some questions.
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: They also asked me about the same thing that I
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: know the man, and I told him I didn't know
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: who they were talking about at first. And then when
• 7:02
  Speaker 5: they was telling me that he lived there, and I said, oh, yeah,
• 7:05
  Speaker 5: I remember seeing the man in the window, but I
• 7:08
  Speaker 5: didn't know him per se.
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: Did they tell you that he had been murdered.
• 7:11
  Speaker 5: No, they didn't state that. They just said something happened.
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: It was an incident with this guy. They was trying
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: to find out what happened.
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: And let's turn to you. So what was going on there?
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: First of all, Vanessa was sort of a person that
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: you would not really think would be involved in anything
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: like this. I mean, and meeting her now, she's such
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: a gentle soul. The idea that she would be involved
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: in a beating death seems so far fetched.
• 7:38
  Speaker 6: I certainly agree with that. But one of the big
• 7:41
  Speaker 6: mysteries always in the case was this business about Scarcella
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: stopping Vanessa because she was a woman walking a white dog.
• 7:51
  Speaker 6: Let me back up, right after mister Shaw was assaulted,
• 7:56
  Speaker 6: he didn't die till months later, so it didn't become
• 8:00
  Speaker 6: a homicide investigation for about four months time. So immediately
• 8:06
  Speaker 6: after the assault, it's basically a robbery investigation. But detectives
• 8:12
  Speaker 6: are working the robbery and the beating they're investigating somewhat.
• 8:17
  Speaker 6: And those detectives interviewed the super in mister Shaw's building
• 8:23
  Speaker 6: twice and memorialized that interview, and the super never said
• 8:29
  Speaker 6: anything about Vanessa Gathers. He never described Vanessa Gathers. He
• 8:34
  Speaker 6: never said, oh, there's a woman with a white dog
• 8:37
  Speaker 6: in the neighborhood who you should talk to. None of
• 8:41
  Speaker 6: that is reflected in those interview notes. But Scarcella consistently
• 8:47
  Speaker 6: testified that the reason he stopped Vanessa was because after
• 8:53
  Speaker 6: mister Shaw died, it did become a homicide investigation, obviously,
• 8:57
  Speaker 6: and Scarcella was assigned the case. He testified that one
• 9:01
  Speaker 6: of the first things he did was go interview the super.
• 9:06
  Speaker 6: He claimed that the super said one of the women
• 9:11
  Speaker 6: who used to talk to Shaw and was friendly with
• 9:14
  Speaker 6: Shaw was a woman in the neighborhood with a white dog. Now, suspiciously,
• 9:21
  Speaker 6: Scarcella never memorialized that interview with the super, as you're
• 9:27
  Speaker 6: supposed to do, and as two prior detectives had done
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: when they interviewed the super. We always thought it was
• 9:35
  Speaker 6: suspicious that there was never any memorialization of that. Why
• 9:39
  Speaker 6: he in fact stopped Vanessa, I really don't know. I mean,
• 9:44
  Speaker 6: I suppose it's conceivable the super said that, but the
• 9:47
  Speaker 6: Super was dead by the time of trial, so no
• 9:52
  Speaker 6: one really knows.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: Well, we do know that the victim said that it
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: was three women. So the one thing you had in
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: common with the perpetrate it was that you were a woman, right,
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: But there's a lot of women, so just and we
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: know now that Scarcella didn't really care whether you were
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: the perpetrator or not. He just cared about getting convictions.
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: And he was very good at it actually, I mean
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: in a very nefarious and terrible way. He was famous
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: actually for solving cases, and that's probably what he was after.
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: So he saw you, figured he would stop and talk
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: to you, and maybe he was bored, but he had
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: nothing else to do. But it came and went right,
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: and then you went back to your life, and you know,
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: eventually you found out that mister Shaw had died, I'm sure,
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: and life went on.
• 10:42
  Speaker 7: Well that's basically what happened.
• 10:44
  Speaker 5: Well, it was ninety two actually when he came around,
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: I think April or May or something of nineteen ninety
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: two when he came the initial visit with him, and
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: then the next time I saw him was nineteen ninety seven.
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: He's knocking on my door.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: He came to your home. Yes, and what transpired next,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, you had no reason to think that you
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: would ever be a suspect in anything like this. No,
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: and probably the memory of the whole thing had faded
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: to some extent, right because it was one coming.
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: I had already forgotten about him and the questioning at
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: that time.
• 11:18
  Speaker 7: I mean, I'm stayed in the same building. I didn't move.
• 11:20
  Speaker 5: If I had anything to hide, I think I would
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: have left. I mean, a lot of people in the
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: neighborhood moved out, but I was still there.
• 11:28
  Speaker 7: So there was no reason for.
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: Me to try and run, will do anything negative regard
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: in this manner, because I know I had no involvement
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: in it.
• 11:37
  Speaker 6: One of our hypotheses was that Vanessa was literally the
• 11:42
  Speaker 6: only one who had any connection to Shaw who was
• 11:47
  Speaker 6: actually still available to Scarcella, still living in the same building.
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: So by now it had turned into a homicide investigation.
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: Scarcella had decided that he was going to solve a
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: cold case, or maybe not, probably many of them. Right.
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: So when he did come see you six years after
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: the murder, what happened? What was his approach this time?
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: Was he friendly? Was he hostile to put you in Coffs?
• 12:13
  Speaker 7: He was very friendly.
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: I actually was never in Coffs at that time we spoke.
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: He asked me saying questions. He asked me, should I
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: come to the precinct. You know, I oblige and I
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: went there. He showed me some muck shots, and he
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: asked me about some of the women in the neighborhood.
• 12:32
  Speaker 7: Did I know in them?
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: It was a couple that I did see that had
• 12:36
  Speaker 5: against criminal records, and that was basically it. He never
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: stated to me that I was a suspect or anything.
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: I had no knowledge of that up until the time
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: that we did. After the polygraph and all of that
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: other information that were transpired. He had my history. I
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: told him where I was working. You know, he knew
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: where I lived. I didn't have anything to hide from
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: this spoor for I cooperated the best that I could.
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: I was working at the Brooklyn Family Court and he
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: picked me up that morning. He came to my job
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: and said he wanted me to come take a polygrab chest.
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: I went with him and everything. I had nothing to die.
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: So after that we stayed at the Priests and all
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: of these other things transpired, and he kept stating to
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: me that he was going to take me home. It
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: got late into the evening before I left the Priests,
• 13:30
  Speaker 5: and it was night. It was night when I did
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: leave there, and he kept saying that my companion, that
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: he would contact him.
• 13:37
  Speaker 7: He never did. He just continued, lie, Lie, Lie. He
• 13:43
  Speaker 7: was frightening.
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: He took his jacket off, he had his gun exposed,
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: and he kept on threatening me, saying I was there,
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: I was there. I kept telling him no, I wasn't.
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: And it just went back and forth like that for
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: quite some time.
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: So he went sort of progressively from friendly too. You'd
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: pick you up, and you probably were like most people.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, you were law abiding citizen. It wasn't like
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: you had a long rap sheet, right.
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: I didn't have no knowledge of the law, so he
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: and I think he really knew that. So he knew
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: because I don't remember him randomizing me or anything.
• 14:15
  Speaker 7: I don't remember all of that.
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: As far as getting a lawyer, I didn't know I
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: needed one because I didn't know I was. I was
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: the person that was Choseph had committed this crime.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: Right, and Lisa, That's something that always bothers me is
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: that people like Vanessa who are innocent are very likely
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: to waive their Miranda rights and speak freely and not
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: request a lawyer. And if you're listening to the show.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: Now I'm going to encourage you. If you do get
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: picked up, don't assume anything, right, just request a lawyer,
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: and other than that, don't say anything other than your name,
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: your address, and that's basically it, right, And once you
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: ask for a lawyer, they're not allowed to ask you
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: more questions.
• 15:00
  Speaker 7: That's right, that's right.
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, they may do it anyway, but they'll be
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: breaking the law. Yeah, I mean, it is a tragic
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: and cruel irony that people like Vanessa who go in
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: wanting to help right and wanting to be cooperative and
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: good citizens and help the police, end up often really
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: on the terribly wrong end of the stick because of
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: the fact that they just don't know and they get
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: taken advantage of it is exactly what happened here, that's right.
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: And one of the issues that we identified with the polygraph,
• 15:29
  Speaker 6: which was basically how Scarcela kicked off that morning. With
• 15:33
  Speaker 6: the polygraph, a polygrapher is supposed to sit down alone
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: with this subject and basically explain to the subject why
• 15:45
  Speaker 6: they're there this morning, and for example, to say, do
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: you know why you're here?
• 15:50
  Speaker 7: You were here because.
• 15:52
  Speaker 6: You're suspected of involvement in this incident, and that's what
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: I want to talk to you about today. And in fact,
• 16:00
  Speaker 6: this particular polygraph never went through that exercise with Vanessa,
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: and she didn't know any better. Someone would say, well,
• 16:08
  Speaker 6: what do you think when someone's polygraphing you? But Vanessa
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: had had no prior experience with us. She was just
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: trying to do what they asked her to do.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: And again, if you don't have anything to hide, and
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: if you are telling the truth, you'd think, well, why
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: shouldn't I take a polygraph? But not such a great idea. Well,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: then we get to the part that gives me a
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: stomach ache. Is this whole process that takes place in
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: the interrogation room when someone in this case Garcela, but
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: it happens all over the country when a detective is
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: determined to get a confession, and they're not necessarily determined
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: to get the truth. In your case, they had no
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: reason to believe that you had any involvement, and yet
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: they approached you and interrogated you as if they basically
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: had everything in the world, every reason in the world
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: to suspect that you were the actual killer. Ultimately, you
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: confess to this crime he didn't commit, and That's the
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: number one thing, Vanessa. When I talk to people who
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: aren't familiar with these issues, everybody says, I would never confess.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: They couldn't get me to do it. That's crazy. I'm
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: too strong, I'm tough. I would never con that's you know.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, well, let me tell you something. So
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: how did they get you? I mean, you're an intelligent woman,
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: you're a law abiding person. You would know enough to
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: know that that's a disaster, right, But you did it?
• 17:28
  Speaker 7: Yes, I did.
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: You're in a tiny room with these two police detectives
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: and you don't even know your rights.
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: I didn't know. I was terrified.
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: And then the badgering started and the jacket came off,
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: like I said, expose it.
• 17:43
  Speaker 7: And he started.
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: Threatening me and leaning over her and you know, making
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: all of these accusations and stuff. And I continually told
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: him that I did not commit this crime.
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: I was not there.
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: And when he wrote the statement, I told him we
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: were going back for us. He's trying to tell me
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: to state this and state that.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: This must have been confusing.
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: It was because I'm like, I'm not understanding what is
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: going on as far as what he's writing on paper.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: He tried to get me to write that statement, and
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: I said, I'm not writing anything because I don't know
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: what happened.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: This is part of the process, right, And it's the
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: crazy thing in this country that police are allowed to lie.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: They can say they have a satellite image of you
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: committing the crime. They can say that they found your fingerprints,
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: they can say that they have witnesses. They can say
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: almost anything they want. What they can't say is they
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: can't threaten you with say you're going to get the
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: death penalty if you're not. There's certain things they can't
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: do like that. But as far as the facts surrounding
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: the case, they can lie all they want, which I
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: think is crazy, and it doesn't it's not that way
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: in most other Western European countries.
• 18:44
  Speaker 6: Are oh, Jason. The reason they do that is to
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: put the subject in a helpless feeling situation so then
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: they can get them to turn and do what they
• 18:55
  Speaker 6: want to do. They make you feel helpless and then
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: they extend and olive branch. Just sign this and I'll
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: take you home. Just help me out here, I'll get
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: you out of here. But the first thing is making
• 19:09
  Speaker 6: the subject feel helpless, and they do that with these
• 19:12
  Speaker 6: false s, evenence ploys.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: So which lies did they tell you?
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: Well, he told me that he had fingerprints, Yeah, eyewitnesses.
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: He has proof that I was in the house. And
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: I kept telling him, no, that's not true. And to me,
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: it's like now getting confused because I'm saying, there's no
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: way possible that this could be. But you know, he
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: continued to tell me different stories and different things that well,
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: at that point, he said, you might be going to jail.
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: These are the things that would happen to you once
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: you get there. You need to sign this paper that
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: he wrote, and he said, I'll take you home. So
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: I'm constantly like, I don't know what to do. Now
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: I'm here by myself in his little room and I'm crying,
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: I'm set, I'm hysterical. And he kept stating to me,
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: I'm going to let you call home. I said, I
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: want to call home. I felt that if I called
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: my friend maybe he would give me some information.
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: What should I do? He denied my phone.
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: Calls because I constantly told him I would like to
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: call home. He said, well, when we finished, you could
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: call home. I'll call I'll have his partner call let
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: him know where I'm at I'm saying because at this
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: point of the day, I should be home, which I wasn't.
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: So now my companion had no idea where I was
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: or what happened to me at all.
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so all of this just adds to the stress
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: and confusion and terror. It's really terror, right that you're
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: experiencing at this point, because you don't know what these
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: guys are capable of, and you know there's nobody but you,
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: and you're overmatched. You are really helpless. I mean, they
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: won't let you in many cases, they won't give you
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: any food, any water. You're just going to sit there
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: and they go in and they go out, and they
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: have this all. It's a whole protocol is designed to
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: do exactly what it did, which is to get you
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: to be willing to do basically anything and confess to anything. Right.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: What's crazy on top of all the rest of this
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: is that they were not only committing an act of evil, right,
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: which is knowingly extracted a confession from a person that
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: they had every indication was innocent of the crime, but
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: also they were sloppy. And why I say that is
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: because the confession that you signed didn't make any sense
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: because the facts that were on that piece of paper
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: didn't match the evidence from the case. Right. They got
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: you to say that he was in a wheelchair, which
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: he wasn't, that it was a robbery of sixty dollars,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: which would find out later that the guy probably didn't
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: have sixty dollars. There was a number of other facts
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: in there that were just wrong. And that's so weird
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: because I don't know. At least it seems to me,
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: if you were doing this, you would at least try
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: to get someone to sign a confess that's accurate to
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: the facts of the case. But they didn't even bother
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: to do that. That's right.
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: And one of the interesting things here was that there
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: were really two confession statements. One was the handwritten statement
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: which Scarcella himself wrote out and Vanessa merely signed, and
• 22:18
  Speaker 6: this was consistent with protocol at the time. There was
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: a video restatement of the confession and that is led
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: by an assistant district attorney with Scarcella in the room. Now,
• 22:32
  Speaker 6: Scarcella could not control the questioning by the assistant district attorney.
• 22:38
  Speaker 6: Vanessa testified that they basically rehearsed, and Scarcella told her
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: what to say in the video, but he could not
• 22:46
  Speaker 6: control some of the questions and the ADA, for example, asked,
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: was the old man standing?
• 22:54
  Speaker 7: Was he sitting?
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: And Vanessa said he was sitting, and he said, so
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: what was he sitting in? And Scarcella had not researched
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: was there ever a wheelchair in the apartment, because Vanessa
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: then guessed she said he was sitting in a wheelchair.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Because he was old. So that might have made sense, right,
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: but it's.
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: Not true, and so there was a gotcha for us
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: as the defense team. That was a great mistake in
• 23:24
  Speaker 6: the confession which we could use to prove it was coerced.
• 23:28
  Speaker 6: And the caine. The ADA asked what kind of cain
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: was used to hit mister Shaw, and Vanessa again guessed
• 23:37
  Speaker 6: because she had no idea. She guessed that it was
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: a wooden cane. In fact, it was a metal cane.
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: So that's how some of these mistakes came in, is
• 23:48
  Speaker 6: that Scarcella could not control the ADA and his questioning.
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: Thank god, because otherwise we might not have caught these mistakes.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: So ultimately you end up going to trial, but before
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: you get to trial, they held you in Rykers Island
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: for thirteen months. Yes, how terrifying.
• 24:19
  Speaker 7: Is that very very terrifying. But prior to me getting there, after.
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: All of the confession and everything, they still never told
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: me I was being arrested for the crime. They bypassed
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: my house. They still stated to me that they were
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: taking me home. And we got to the precinct. I said,
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: why didn't you pass my house or we have to
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: make one more stop. This is still lives And we
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: got to the precinct and at that point then he
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: said he had to handcuff me.
• 24:48
  Speaker 7: I was never cuffed.
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: I was never told I was arrested and they had
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: to cuff me to take me into that building, which
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: was Central Booking. I didn't even know that. And then
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: I was put in the cage and I just stayed
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: there until they said I was supposed to see a
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: judge or whatever I had to. It was all a
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: blur because I don't recall all of that that happened.
• 25:13
  Speaker 7: At that time.
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: And the next day I guess that I was on
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: the bus going to Riker's Island and up on my rival.
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: You know, they do the strips, serge your nackad You're
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: walking around in the sheet in the cage with a
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: whole bunch of people, other women, and you know, and
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: then you put into a cell. And at that time
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: when they put me to a housing unit, I was
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: able to call home finally and tell him where.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: I was at and what was that phone called?
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: Like it was?
• 25:47
  Speaker 7: He was very upset. I was upset.
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: I was hysterical, and I still couldn't think of how
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: I landed here, you know, in Riker's Island. It was
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: just it was so and you have no clothes, You
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: have the rents out what you have on.
• 26:04
  Speaker 7: You took a shower, your rents out what you have.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: On and hang it in your cell, hopefully it be
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: dry by morning, cause that's all you have. And that
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: was it til the next morning. Then you're taking out
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: and you go to the mess hall as they call it,
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: and and you're just there in that space until they
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: put you for two weeks. I guess it's two weeks
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: before they put you in population and then you they
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: assign you another s where I was living in the dormitory.
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: In the dorm where it's a whole bunch of beds
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: and women half toilets, there was no privacy at all.
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: You take showers where the whole bunch of other women
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: in one big circle thing, and you just got spickers
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: coming out the wall, and it was a lot of
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: different things that happen. It's it's terrible just being in
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: that place. A lot of different things go on, women
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: and women. I started working the night shift. I did
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: whatever I had to do so I wouldn't be on
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: the dorm at night. I just didn't. It was just
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: disgusting for me. I couldn't deal with that part of it.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: So ultimately, thirteen months later, you end up finally getting
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: your day in court, and you had a lawyer who
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: didn't seems like he did the minimum amount of work
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: that he could do. Now you know, I don't know.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: He may have been working on four hundred other cases.
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: There are certainly lawyers of public defenders in New York
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: who are so overburdened. But that doesn't matter when it's
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: your life on the line, right And we don't know
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: the personal circumstances that this individual was in, but one
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: way or another, he was not prepared and did not
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: represent you adequately, and you really didn't have a chance.
• 27:48
  Speaker 7: That's true. Well, I like the attorney I made.
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: My companion kept asking him and court when we went
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: to court, could he speak with him?
• 27:58
  Speaker 7: He always said yes, but he always left the courtroom.
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: He adjourned my case on numerous occasions, so there was
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: nothing that he did. There was no investigation because as
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: far as I'm concerned, when this incident happened, I don't
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: see where there's a police investigation done in anything. By
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: the time that they decided the man had passed away,
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: there was dust that family had came in and cleaned
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: the house, did a lot of things, so therefore there
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: was no fingerprints. There was nothing. The house was cleaned
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: because the family members. This is all the information I
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: found out later on after I was incarcerated.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: Another terrible aspect of pre trial detention is that I'm
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: guessing your lawyer didn't visit you. No, he did not, right,
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: And there's a reason behind that too, which is that
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: for a lawyer to go to Rikers Island and visit you,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: basically that's going to take their whole day. They don't
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: make it easy. It's a whole process you have to
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: go through. They have to travel to the jail. So
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: people who are not in the system right, people who
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: are out on bail or on their own recognizance, have
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: a much better chance because they can meet more freely
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: with their lawyers and get better representation, which is another
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: thing that I think it's important for people to understand.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: It's one of the reasons why our bail system is
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: so unfair and ill conceived. So you were in that
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: exact situation where you're facing a murder wrap. Your lawyer's
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: not visiting you, he's not really doing any work every
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: time he comes in, and a journeys the case, you
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: go right back to Rikers Island, and so there's just
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: nothing that's fair or equitable about that. And ultimately, though
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: thirteen months later, you did get your day in court.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: By this point, I mean, you'd been through so much,
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: and you'd been lied to by the people who are
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: supposed to protect you, and you'd been let down by
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: the other person was supposed to protect you as your lawyer.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: The whole system is failing you. But when you went
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: to court, did you believe that justice would finally be
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: done and people would see that you were a innocent person.
• 29:57
  Speaker 7: Yes, I did.
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: That's the reason why I test on my own behalf,
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: because I didn't have anyone to testify for me.
• 30:05
  Speaker 7: And I mean Scott Selly.
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: He went out of his way to make sure that
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: family members were there, and a lot of them had
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: moved away because of the time lapse. They were in
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: another state, but he brought a lot of them there
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: so that the jury could see that there was a
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: large family, and it just made things move a little
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: smoother for him to get the conviction.
• 30:30
  Speaker 7: But I did speak to the family. I spoke to
• 30:32
  Speaker 7: the judge.
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: I even wrote a letter to the judge stating that
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: I did not commit this crime.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: So these are what happened.
• 30:38
  Speaker 6: Well, Finessa testified that the confession was coerced and that
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: she was not there.
• 30:46
  Speaker 7: Now.
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: The jury deliberated for I think over thirteen hours. It
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: was a lengthy deliberation, relatively speaking, and they acquitted her
• 30:57
  Speaker 6: on the top count, which was murder. But there must
• 31:01
  Speaker 6: have been some kind of compromise because they did convict
• 31:04
  Speaker 6: her on the manslaughter and the only evidence against her
• 31:09
  Speaker 6: was the confession. But you have to remember this was
• 31:12
  Speaker 6: back in ninety seven and juries were not sensitized to
• 31:17
  Speaker 6: the issues we all know today about how innocent people
• 31:22
  Speaker 6: can confess. The science was not there then, and it
• 31:27
  Speaker 6: would take a lot for a jury to reject a
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: confession that someone seemed to have voluntarily made, and there
• 31:36
  Speaker 6: was no false confession expert who testified on her behalf
• 31:40
  Speaker 6: a trial, just Vanessa's word against Scarcella's word. And obviously
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: Scarcela at that time was a senior detective who nobody
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: had reason to question. There had been no allegations yet
• 31:57
  Speaker 6: that he had engaged in any corrupt life activity, so
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: it was reasonable for a jury to buy Scarcello's account
• 32:07
  Speaker 6: instead of Finesses. And I think that's what happened. If
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: the same case we're tried today, I think a jury
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: would be much more attuned to coercion issues and that
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: false confessions can happen. I think it would be a
• 32:22
  Speaker 6: different outcome today.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: Frankly, Yeah, And I want to make sure that people
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: who are listening really take that in because now we
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: know there's so much research on false confessions. It is
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: a wonderful show on Netflix called The Confession Tapes. So
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: many people have seen the Confessions and other programs like
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: Making a Murderer that are so obviously false. We know
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: that in DNA exonerations over twenty percent of the cases
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: involve false confessions. It's a scary phenomenon, but it's very real.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: And so Vanessa, at that moment when you were convicted,
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: because the jury did come back in and declare you
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: guilty of second degree manslaughter, what was that like?
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: I think I just went numb on it and believe it.
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: I didn't think I would get that kind of time
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: anyway for this he even if they didn't believe me.
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: I really didn't even realize how much time I had
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: to do. I just didn't believe it, so that nobody
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: believed me, you know what I was stating to them.
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: I mean, I know he had some issues in the past,
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: and he just came back forward trying to just get
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: a conviction, because he did have some problems in the department.
• 33:34
  Speaker 7: But he just came gunn ho at me.
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: And I'm not realizing that he was set me up
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: the whole time just to take the four for this crime.
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: But he did. And he probably got some pats on
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: the back and some you know, sort of accolades for
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: solving another cold case. And you were, you know, just
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: a little detailed to him. That's all. He probably never
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: Probably I'm guessing he went home that night, had a
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: nice dinner, you know, watch some TV, and went to sleep.
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: So you end up serving ten years in prison where
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: you had a perfect disciplinary record, and the whole time
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: you maintained your innocence, even though there were times when
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: you came before a parole board and it would have
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: been better for you in some ways to say that
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: you were guilty, because they would have probably sent you home.
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: Yes, that's true. But the first couple of times I went,
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: I did not. I kept I stated that I did
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: not do the crime.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: But they don't want to hear that. They want to
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: hear that you're remorseful, that you feel bad that the victim.
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: I can't feel remorse when I didn't do something. They
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: don't understand. How do you feel You don't know the person,
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: you didn't do the crime, so how can you feel remorse.
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: I mean, I feel remorse when someone is getting beaten
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: or something like that, actually seen it happen. But as
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: far as me doing something like that, never never.
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: Finessa's right. In the first two parole hearings, she said
• 34:52
  Speaker 6: I did not do what they said I did. But
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: eight years in with a perfect disciplinary record and seeing
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: how little asserting her evidence got her with the parole
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: board previously, in her third parole hearing, she appeared to
• 35:10
  Speaker 6: admit guilt, and we retained a fabulous expert who was
• 35:15
  Speaker 6: able to explain the conundrum that someone like Vanessa is facing.
• 35:20
  Speaker 6: And Vanessa testified in her deposition that everyone on the
• 35:25
  Speaker 6: inside was telling her you're an idiot. You've got to
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: tell them what they want to hear. Just tell them
• 35:33
  Speaker 6: you did it. And so Vanessa in the third parole
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: hearing appeared to admit guilt when in fact, obviously she
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: was not guilty, but it was the only way she
• 35:45
  Speaker 6: could see to get out early.
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: At that point, it didn't matter they it didn't matter.
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: Even in the third hearing, date hit me again with
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: another two years, which is pissed my cr date, my
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: condition to release. It was up to them, I would
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: have still been in there until two thousand and eight.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: Now we're going to get to the good part of
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: the story, right, because there is a happy ending, or
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: you wouldn't be sitting here now and you wouldn't be
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: enjoying the nice, big, extended family that you now have.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: And so the good guys come to the rescue. Right.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: You have Lisa and her team at Hughes, Hubbard and Reed,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: and you have the legal aid Society, and then at
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: just about the right time in Brooklyn, the Conviction Review
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: Unit was established, and that unit has done phenomenal work
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: in reversing many wrongful convictions, including last time I looked
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: at was seven or eight that Scarcela was directly responsible for,
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: including yours. So let's talk about that, because the happy
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: ending part of this story is really really important because
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: it requires people like Lisa and other dedicated professionals to
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: go and reverse one of these things. It's hard. I mean,
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: they don't make it easy at all. So how did
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: it come about Lisa? How did she end up getting justice?
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: After all?
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: Credit initially unquestionably goes to the Legal Aid Society. This
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: is what happened. Charles Hines was in the political fight
• 37:26
  Speaker 6: of his career and there had been an initial Scarcella
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: related exoneration in the David Ranta case, and the New
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: York Times and Ken Thompson are breathing down Charles Hines's back,
• 37:41
  Speaker 6: and he says, it's okay, everybody, I'm telling you right now,
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: I am going to reinvestigate every trial conviction that detective
• 37:51
  Speaker 6: Scarcella touched, and Hines prepared a list which has never
• 37:56
  Speaker 6: been publicly available. I don't know anyone that's ever seen it.
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: Initially it had at least fifty names of defendants on it.
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: And what the DA's office did was they contacted the
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: last lawyer of record in each of those fifty cases. Well,
• 38:14
  Speaker 6: the Legal Aid Society was the last lawyer of record
• 38:18
  Speaker 6: in a good half of those, about twenty five. And
• 38:21
  Speaker 6: so Legal Aid went to firms around town looking for
• 38:27
  Speaker 6: partners which is how Hughes Hubbard got involved with the
• 38:31
  Speaker 6: case and we proceeded on a three year partnership with
• 38:36
  Speaker 6: Legal Aid. We reinvestigated the crime and marshalled our arguments,
• 38:43
  Speaker 6: retained experts and were able to make a persuasive pitch
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: to the then District Attorney, Ken Thompson, who had beaten
• 38:54
  Speaker 6: Charles Hines in that election. And that is the short
• 38:57
  Speaker 6: story of how we were able to get to the
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: exoneration day.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: And Ken Thompson sadly died last year at the young
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: age of fifty. He was a good man and a
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: decent man. He was a friend of mine, but he
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: was so proud. You know. He used to walk around
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: with a picture of you. I don't know, do you
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: know that?
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: No, I know it's in his office, but I didn't
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: know he had the picture with it.
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: He at his birthday party. He has this cardboard thing.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: I'm holding my arms out wide to show how big
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: it was, and then it was about a couple of
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: feet three feet high, and on it it had a
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: picture of you and the other exoneries that he his
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: office had helped to exonerate. And so he was very
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: proud of you and of the work that he and
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: his team had done to help in your case. I
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: remember him mentioning you specifically, So you should feel good
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: about that. So when finally the light shone on you
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: and on your case and justice was done, and it
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: was proven by all these good people that this had happened,
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: and that you were telling the truth all along, except
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: when you were lying, because it was them telling you
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: what to say, right, I mean, but in fact, as
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: you had been saying you were innocent for so many years,
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: what did that feel like when finally you got your
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: life back?
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: It felt great, and I was like, I'm saying, I'm
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: able to finally put this behind me. You don't know
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: what you're feeling at that time, because it's like, it's
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: clear now that I didn't do it.
• 40:29
  Speaker 7: I mean, you don't know what people think of you,
• 40:32
  Speaker 7: whether you.
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: Did this crime or not, because it's on records stating
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: that you did. But I felt great, I mean I
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: felt relieved. Now live my life without having that on
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: my record. It's very difficult to try and find a job,
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: to move on in life because you have this hanging
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: over your head. Now my record is clean, I could
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: state that I have no record, which makes life a
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: lot easier for me because people look to a background check.
• 41:00
  Speaker 7: Is nothing there.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: It's nothing there because you never had anything there, because
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: you were always there, always were a law abiding citizen.
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: Yes, but as far as the law and the criminal
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: justice system said, yes you have a record, it's on there.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: Not anymore.
• 41:13
  Speaker 7: Not anymore, it's been taken away.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: And now you know, there's another aspect of this, which
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: is something that's so troubling. You know, when we live
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: in a country where we have approximately four point four
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: percent of the world's population, but we have thirty three
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: percent of the world's female prison population, which is just
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: so outrageous. I mean, it's a national disgrace the way
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: we treat women in this country. And when somebody like
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: you is locked up, you're missing out on your children's lives, right,
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: and your children grandchildren, and that dynamic. I mean, that
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: must have been an extra punishment. It was.
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: My granddaughter was like only a year or when I
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: went in, and it caused a lot of chaos be
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: twet me and my daughter because I wasn't there for her.
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: You understand, when she needed her mother to help her,
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: when she had questions about raising her daughter.
• 42:07
  Speaker 7: I wasn't there.
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: She couldn't even call you no and not but you
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: were far away, right that That's another thing.
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: I was in bedfoot for a while, and then I
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: finally moved to They moved me to Bayview, which is
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: in Manhattan, which was made closer because I didn't get
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: a lot of visits. I didn't get visits because my
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: family couldn't come to the facility because we were poor.
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: We didn't have money like that. I mean, even like
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: my father was living at the time. He wanted to
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: put up his farm. I wouldn't allow him to do
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: that because they gave me a quarter million dollar bill,
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: saying where do you think I'm gonna get that kind
• 42:45
  Speaker 5: of money from. It was difficult for everyone. I lost
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: a lot of family members. I lost a brother or sister,
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: my uncle, my aunt, I lost my mother, my father's brother.
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: It was it was a lot of family member that
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: passed away. During my first year incarcerated. I couldn't attend
• 43:04
  Speaker 5: anything because if you're in New York or if your
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: family's out of state, you can't go to the services.
• 43:11
  Speaker 7: So that was hard for me to deal with too.
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: It was a lot of things that that I missed
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: out on because of my incarceration.
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: So you had to endure the death of numerous family
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: members while you were behind bars for something you didn't do,
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: and you weren't even allowed to go to the funeral, right. So,
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's so amazing to me that you're here now,
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: standing up straight, proud, like, able to put a sentence together, right,
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: able to just have a life when you've been through
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: such an incredibly terrible ordeal that you never deserved. I mean,
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: it's crazy. So now the good news is you have
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: gotten your life back, right. I mean, this thing actually
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: happened almost twenty years ago. Must be crazy to think
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: about that. And now you've been out for some time,
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: and what's the situation Now? You settled your lawsuits, right,
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: which is great, Yes, and it's worth noting that Scarcela
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: not only ruined so many people's lives and left so
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: many crimes unsolved, leading to many more crimes happening, because obviously,
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: when he arrested and was able to get convictions on
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: the wrong people, the right people were out there committing
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: more crimes. Right, So he's got that. And then also
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: there's been tens of millions of dollars paid out to
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: so many victims of his by the city, which is
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: taxpayer money. So there's nothing cute or funny about what
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: this guy was doing. When these guys behave in this way,
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: who are supposed to be protecting us and keeping us safe,
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: it has so many terrible consequences across the board. So
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: now where are you living, how's your life, what's your
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: family situation? I want to hear, well, I'm living.
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: In Jersey's City now, although I was living in Manhattan
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: until twenty fourteen and working. I was working from the
• 44:56
  Speaker 5: day that I got out of prison because I met
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: a couple day gave me a job and I work
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: with them for almost eight years until they retired. And
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: then now living in Jersey City. My mother has Alzheimer's.
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: That's one of the reasons. I moved back to Jersey
• 45:11
  Speaker 5: City where she is. I recently purchased a home or
• 45:14
  Speaker 5: it's eleventh for graduations. I have the first one, and
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: my daughter has a second. It's a two family house
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: and she's upstairs with a daughter and her granddaughter, my granddaughter,
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: my great granddaughter and my daughter, so we all live
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: in together.
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: Right, have any boys in your family?
• 45:31
  Speaker 7: We do have boys.
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: I have brothers, But as far as me, it's four
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: generations of females. Well five, you put my mother in there,
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: but it's just females.
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: You got four generations living under one roof in Jersey City.
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: It sounds incredible and isn't that nice though, that now
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: you're able to make up for the time that you
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: lost with your family. Now you have your whole like
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: so many of you all there together. I mean, it
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: must be just a joy for you.
• 45:58
  Speaker 7: It is. It is wonderful.
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: I can see my granddaughter, my great granddaughter at any
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: time if I need to go somewhere in My.
• 46:06
  Speaker 7: Granddaughter does have a car.
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: She's working, so she could take me and then I
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: get this babysit my granddaughter.
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: So that's amazing. Well, listen, I'm happy that things finally
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: worked out. I want to apologize to you for what
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: the city and the state did to you. There's no
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: excuse for it, but I'm glad you're here now. One
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: of my favorite parts of the show often is to
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: turn the microphone over to our featured guest and see,
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: is there anything else you want to share with the audience.
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: Well, no, I'm just saying that. Well, during the time
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: that I was in there, I mean, I wasn't going
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: to let the time do me. I was going to
• 46:46
  Speaker 5: do the time. So I got myself involved with a
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: lot of different activities throughout the prison. I worked hard
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: to stay in touch with my family. I would read
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: my granddaughter books on you know, on video and send
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: the books. There's a lot of programs in there. There's
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: a lot of things you could do even though you're
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: fighting your case. But do something positive, you know, don't
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: let the negativity rule you.
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: And Lisa any final thoughts, I would.
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: Just say, having known Vanessa now for five or six years,
• 47:19
  Speaker 6: she is an exceptional person and the only way I
• 47:23
  Speaker 6: think she was able to get through this ordeal was
• 47:27
  Speaker 6: her strength of character. She got into prison, and I
• 47:31
  Speaker 6: think this woman just put her head down and said,
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: I'm going to get through this, and she just was
• 47:38
  Speaker 6: forward thinking. She never obsessed about how did this happen?
• 47:43
  Speaker 6: How did I get here? It was just one day
• 47:46
  Speaker 6: at a time. I've got to get out of here.
• 47:49
  Speaker 6: And she mentioned the couple that hired her right after prison.
• 47:54
  Speaker 6: I just want to speak to that because I think
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: it's so telling about Vanessa. Literally, a wealthy couple was
• 48:01
  Speaker 6: volunteering at Bayview, husband and wife. Vanessa was running the
• 48:07
  Speaker 6: ged program. She was running this thing, that thing, and
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: they elbowed each other and said, why is she here?
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: We don't get it. She's not like anyone else in here.
• 48:20
  Speaker 6: And they befriended Vanessa, and literally one week after she
• 48:26
  Speaker 6: was released, she was in a full time job working
• 48:30
  Speaker 6: for them, and she was the chief administrator of their
• 48:33
  Speaker 6: very successful company and worked for these people for seven years.
• 48:39
  Speaker 6: They trusted her, they loved her. They could see what she.
• 48:42
  Speaker 7: Was capable of.
• 48:43
  Speaker 6: And you know, my client is just an extraordinary woman,
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: and it's a testament to her character that she was
• 48:50
  Speaker 6: able to get through this.
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: Well, both of you are extraordinary women. So Vanessa, Lisa,
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: thank you so much for coming in and appearing on
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: the show. You've been listening to a very special episode
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: of Wrongful Conviction with our guests Fanessa Others and Lisa Kaye.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me, don't forget to give us
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennisis Project and
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: to annessisproject dot org to learn how to donate and
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
• 49:47
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• 49:52
  Speaker 4: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: with Signal Company Number one.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: When the Morning the Boy Hated Them