Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / The Dilemma of Modern Israel | Graham Keelan

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The Dilemma of Modern Israel | Graham Keelan · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast. Welcome
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  Speaker 1: to the program today. My name is Mona Gonzalez here
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  Speaker 1: in studio and I have a through Skype our good
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  Speaker 1: friend Graham all the way from England, and we are
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  Speaker 1: going to be continuing a series that we began not
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  Speaker 1: too long ago on the Israel dilemma. And to me,
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  Speaker 1: it's a fascinating discussion because as we look around again,
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  Speaker 1: even in the church world, there is a lot of
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  Speaker 1: confusion as it relates to how we approach Israel. The
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  Speaker 1: Bible five six of the Bible is about Israel, and
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  Speaker 1: so it requires a little bit of effort on our part.
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  Speaker 1: Before we get to Graham owner, remind everybody about our
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  Speaker 1: upcoming conference in Orlando, Florida, March twenty seventh through thirtieth.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to be a great time. I always love
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  Speaker 1: actually being in Orlando in the spring, in late spring,
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  Speaker 1: getting out of Oklahoma's little bit chilly weather. So you
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  Speaker 1: can join us Prophecywatchers dot com. Check it out, get
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  Speaker 1: all the details there, see the eighteen speakers that we
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  Speaker 1: have going on again the twenty twenty five. It seems
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  Speaker 1: like we're saying this all the time.
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  Speaker 2: The next year is very very important.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to be integral. But that is no surprise
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  Speaker 1: as we see the end of the age approaching, we
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  Speaker 1: would not be surprised to see the way things are
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  Speaker 1: coming and coming together as it relates to prophetic trends.
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  Speaker 3: So Graham, welcome all Mondo, good to join you again.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and here we are with when we think about
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  Speaker 1: the dilemma of modern Israel, I'm reminded of of Zachari
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  Speaker 1: chapter twelve, where God specifically says that Jerusalem and certainly
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  Speaker 1: by extension Israel is going to be a burdensome stone,
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  Speaker 1: a cup of trembling that is going to cause, you know, challenge,
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  Speaker 1: a dilemma for lack of a better word, for the
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  Speaker 1: nations of the world. And here we are ever since
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  Speaker 1: Israel became a nation, and even before that in nineteen
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  Speaker 1: forty eight, as we know, which we'll discuss today. You know,
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  Speaker 1: right into the beginning, why do you think Israel, you know,
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  Speaker 1: here at the end of the age nineteen forty seven
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  Speaker 1: and prior, you know, what do you think what's your
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  Speaker 1: theological background to why does it cause such trouble amongst
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  Speaker 1: the nations of the world?
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  Speaker 3: So you always you are so a hard question at me.
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  Speaker 3: Let me see, I think because Mondo, I think because
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  Speaker 3: in one sense, it's you know, you're talking about the
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  Speaker 3: heavy stone, the burdensome stone, right. I mean, I know
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  Speaker 3: in a in another series that we did, we were
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  Speaker 3: we kind of talked about that. I mean, I had
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  Speaker 3: tend to think that Jesus himself is the burdensome stone,
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  Speaker 3: that you know, that it's it's his it's his kingship
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  Speaker 3: in Jerusalem, which which the nations now and let's not
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  Speaker 3: forget here, because we got the Jews and the Gentiles,
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  Speaker 3: and it's burdens and for all of them. Right, We're
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  Speaker 3: just tend to think it's burdens for the Gentiles, for
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  Speaker 3: all the nations, but it's actually very burdensome for the
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  Speaker 3: Jews as well at present day Jews, because they're still
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  Speaker 3: in their blindness, they don't want their king or you know,
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  Speaker 3: they're not looking for the same king that were looking
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  Speaker 3: that we're looking for. So in that blindness, then they're
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  Speaker 3: also stumbling around trying to fix this problem which is
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  Speaker 3: completely unfixable. And I think and I think it's because
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  Speaker 3: Israel is the redemption for the nations, and Jesus is
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  Speaker 3: the redemption of Israel, and then they're by extension, the
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  Speaker 3: redemption of the nations. And of course if the world
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  Speaker 3: does not want his redemption, and even the Jews themselves
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  Speaker 3: currently do not want his redemption, then what else is
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  Speaker 3: it going to be other than a very burdensome stone
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  Speaker 3: which they're trying to shift, they're trying to you know,
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  Speaker 3: it comes to mind, you know, you know, like the
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  Speaker 3: pyramids there in the in Egypt. You know, geeze, the
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  Speaker 3: those big pyramids, those massive stones, trying to haul those
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  Speaker 3: things across the desert, haul them up the steps, and
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  Speaker 3: you know, you meagualely trying to get that capstone on
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  Speaker 3: top of that of that big pyramid. And I just
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  Speaker 3: think that's why it's so burdensome, because it's it's not
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  Speaker 3: just a political issue, it's not just a land issue.
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  Speaker 3: It's a redemption issue. And you know, what God has
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  Speaker 3: decided to do is what he will, you know, the
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  Speaker 3: work that he has begun, he will complete, As Pop says.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I'm really glad you brought that up, because
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  Speaker 1: you see in Matthew twenty two, which is a quote
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  Speaker 1: from the Psalms where Jesus talks about have you never read,
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  Speaker 1: you know, about the chief the stone that the builders
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  Speaker 1: rejected became the chief stone at the corner, and Jesus says,
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  Speaker 1: you know, all those who come against it are going
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  Speaker 1: to be you know, broken, but those whom it goes
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  Speaker 1: against are going to be crushed. And so I do
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  Speaker 1: find that fascinating that the ultimately, you know, Israel, as
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  Speaker 1: we know, is primarily a secular country, and its own challenge,
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  Speaker 1: its own solution for its own salvation is never going
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  Speaker 1: to be met because they refuse the cornerstone of Jesus himself.
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  Speaker 1: And so when we think about this, and as I
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  Speaker 1: think what you said there was good in the nations
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  Speaker 1: of the world, the dilemma of Israel, can it be
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  Speaker 1: fixed in this life apart from the re establishment of
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  Speaker 1: Jesus as the Messiah for Israel first and then for
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  Speaker 1: the rest of the nations, Is it even possible?
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  Speaker 3: No? And I think, and it's meant to be that way. Yes,
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  Speaker 3: it's meant to be that. There is no other plan. So,
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  Speaker 3: you know, as we will discuss this further that you know,
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  Speaker 3: we were talking beforehand about how Israel is the West dilemma.
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  Speaker 3: So you know people, So I want to say, well,
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  Speaker 3: you know, why does the West keep banging the drum
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  Speaker 3: about the two states solution and et cetera, et cetera,
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  Speaker 3: while they're doing it for very practical reasons and very
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  Speaker 3: moral reasons in their own in their own thought processes,
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  Speaker 3: because you know, the nations are not looking for the
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  Speaker 3: return of the king. Okay, So you know Israel again,
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  Speaker 3: Israel has set itself up as as we have this
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  Speaker 3: phrase mondo, you know about Israel's a colonial settler state,
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  Speaker 3: et cetera. Partly true, that is, but it's it's it,
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  Speaker 3: but it's modeled itself, that modern state of has modeled
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  Speaker 3: itself have to be a modern liberal, Western, liberal democratic state.
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  Speaker 3: And that is nowhere found in Israel's destiny in the scriptures. Right,
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  Speaker 3: So it's you know, so it wants it wants to
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  Speaker 3: It still wants to be like all the other nations,
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  Speaker 3: but particularly like the Western nations, because you know, we're
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  Speaker 3: we're the most progressive in that sense of the of
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  Speaker 3: the term, the most successful civilization ever to be founded
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  Speaker 3: upon the earth. For sure, technology science. But but you know,
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  Speaker 3: we know where democracy is taking the West. We know
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  Speaker 3: that what's happening with the West is that when it
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  Speaker 3: is abandoning the very pillars which uphold that democracy, the
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  Speaker 3: West is in decay. It's been in moral decay since
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  Speaker 3: the sixties, and it's it's because it will move further
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  Speaker 3: into decay. So all of this thing has to come
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  Speaker 3: to an end, right, the West has to come to
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  Speaker 3: an end, the East has to come to an end.
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  Speaker 3: It all has to come to an end. So we
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  Speaker 3: shouldn't sort of be be bemoaning that end, that we
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  Speaker 3: should have our eyes open to how is its end
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  Speaker 3: coming about? And what should we be So so here's
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  Speaker 3: what we're here. Here's what we need to think about.
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  Speaker 3: I think, Mondo is is that how the nations think
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  Speaker 3: about Israel, whether for or against, is one thing. How
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  Speaker 3: Israel thinks about itself. How the Jews think about Israel
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  Speaker 3: is another thing. But as Christians, as those who who
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  Speaker 3: who we declare ourselves to have received being the light
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  Speaker 3: as it were. Because what's what's what's interesting, I suppose,
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  Speaker 3: and maybe this is why we're doing this series, is
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  Speaker 3: that that, yes, Israel is a burdensome stone for the Jews,
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  Speaker 3: and it's a burdens and stone for the gentiles Jerusalem.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, but it's it's also a burdensome stone for
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  Speaker 3: the church, and really it shouldn't be that way. We
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  Speaker 3: really should have a bit of a clear understanding and
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  Speaker 3: be able to take our our moral judgments that we're
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  Speaker 3: not looking at this in blindness, but that we're looking
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  Speaker 3: at through the light of the Gospel and the plant
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  Speaker 3: of redemption for the nations. And I think that's what
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  Speaker 3: we're just trying to invite that conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the fascinating thing is, you know,
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  Speaker 1: God has spoken clearly in the New Testament, and of
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  Speaker 1: course we know the greatest exposition of the understanding of
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  Speaker 1: the role of Israel from the transition from Old Testament
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  Speaker 1: theocratic Israel into the New Testament, where God has postponed
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  Speaker 1: or put on hold the theocratic Israel and now the
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  Speaker 1: Jews that get saved are part of the Church. But
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  Speaker 1: the greatest exposition is Romans nine through eleven. And of
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  Speaker 1: course then we understand a little bit more in the
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  Speaker 1: Book of Hebrews, which again is the book of the Jews,
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  Speaker 1: if you wanted to say it that way. But I
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  Speaker 1: think that's often the case that is most ignored. It's
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  Speaker 1: too easy for many in the Church historically, going back
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  Speaker 1: to Augustine and others with that have more of an
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  Speaker 1: allegorical approach that just say, oh, all the promises of
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  Speaker 1: the Israel or the theocratic nation of Israel and the Old Testament,
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  Speaker 1: if there wasn't a literal fulfillment that we can see,
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  Speaker 1: then we'll just transfer all of them over to the Church.
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  Speaker 1: And so when you have that as a backdrop and
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  Speaker 1: you come to the New Testament and it says Israel,
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  Speaker 1: most people just will say, oh, well, Israel means the Church.
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  Speaker 1: It never does not even once, ever a single time.
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  Speaker 1: Even Galatian six sixteen doesn't say that. But they try
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  Speaker 1: to take one, you know, potential idea of in Galatian
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  Speaker 1: six and then force it on every other passage, which
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  Speaker 1: doesn't work. But if we come to understand Romans nine
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  Speaker 1: through eleven very clearly, as you said, we will have
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  Speaker 1: the best articulation of understanding how to deal and how
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  Speaker 1: to nuance our way through the the lemma that we
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  Speaker 1: have today.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, because obviously people hold hold their views with
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  Speaker 3: with with with great convictions. So you know, I don't
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  Speaker 3: I don't belittle people's great convictions. You know, if people
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  Speaker 3: actually you know, if they this is the way they feel,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I had to tell I mean, I you know,
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  Speaker 3: I've lived my life by my convictions, and but I
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  Speaker 3: don't impose those on somebody else. So you know, when
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  Speaker 3: it comes to war, when it comes to you support war,
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  Speaker 3: do you pick up arms to you know, to to
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  Speaker 3: to to sort of participate in a war. So people
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  Speaker 3: have their convictions, and people see this this, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the the the bloodshed which is going on in in
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  Speaker 3: in in that area you know, whether you want to
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  Speaker 3: call it Palestine, whether what they call it Israel, but
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  Speaker 3: in that whole area, and it's heartbreaking, you know what
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  Speaker 3: I mean, with children and and you know, innocent innocent
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  Speaker 3: children being you know, uh slaughtered being killed. Should I say,
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  Speaker 3: you know, who wants that?
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  Speaker 1: Who?
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  Speaker 3: You know? When our savior says, suffer the children to
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  Speaker 3: come unto me, it's just like it's it's you know,
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  Speaker 3: it's you know, and I think that that's what that's
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  Speaker 3: where we have to really navigate this and and say, okay, lord,
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  Speaker 3: you know, how should I be thinking about this this
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  Speaker 3: whole because what you know, this whole scenario, because what
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  Speaker 3: we don't want to do is so there's the one
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  Speaker 3: side of the ditch, as you rightly pointed out Wondo,
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  Speaker 3: which was the anti Semitism. You know, the Church has
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  Speaker 3: replaced Israel. You know, all the promises to the to
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  Speaker 3: Israel now go to the Church, et cetera. But what
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  Speaker 3: we don't want to do is those of us who
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  Speaker 3: is reject that is, to swing to the other side
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  Speaker 3: on the pendulum and the other side of the ditch
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  Speaker 3: and be completely oblivious to well, hang on, the modern
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  Speaker 3: state of Israel cannot continue in its present form. And
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  Speaker 3: it's never, you know, it's never, it's not meant to.
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  Speaker 3: And the Jews are currently still in their blindness, and
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  Speaker 3: their leaders are still in the blindness. They are still
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  Speaker 3: sheep without a shepherd because their great shepherd has left.
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  Speaker 3: He's gone to heaven. But he's he's he's orchestrated events
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  Speaker 3: in order to bring them to a place where they
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  Speaker 3: will eventually acknowledge the true shepherd. And you know, and
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  Speaker 3: I actually I really do feel, you know, especially the
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  Speaker 3: young people there, because you know, you hear different I
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  Speaker 3: watch different videos, and you hear the Zionist dream dying
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  Speaker 3: also in a younger generation. You know, is this what
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  Speaker 3: zion is? Zionism is if it is, I want nothing
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  Speaker 3: to do with it. And they are actually they're deeply
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  Speaker 3: convicted about it. So this is not about them being
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  Speaker 3: self hating, self hating Jews. They're deeply convicted about it.
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  Speaker 3: And so you know, when I look at the young
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  Speaker 3: people especially, you know, they're in the idea if they
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  Speaker 3: had to go in the fight for the nation. And
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  Speaker 3: and then some of these, some of these soldiers who
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  Speaker 3: have come out of the idef and have said, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the things they've had to do or the things they've witnessed,
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  Speaker 3: and they've renounced it all. So this is not about
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  Speaker 3: any war. Is a is a terrible business, right, So
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  Speaker 3: I come from a nation which has fought many wars.
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  Speaker 3: It's the same with you, Mondo. You know, because you're
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  Speaker 3: the victory in the war doesn't mean that you've engaged
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  Speaker 3: the war properly, doesn't mean you've engaged the war morally.
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  Speaker 3: You could have done. You know, some your nation can
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  Speaker 3: do some terrible things in the execution of a war.
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  Speaker 3: And that's what I love about when it says about
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  Speaker 3: Jesus in the in the in in Revelation, it says
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  Speaker 3: he makes war in righteousness, you know, So I mean
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  Speaker 3: he's right, the only one who can really do that
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  Speaker 3: make war in righteousness. I mean, we can have a
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  Speaker 3: righteous cause. But but for a lot a lot of
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  Speaker 3: times when men make war, or as you get older
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  Speaker 3: you kind of think about these things, vengeance very easily
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  Speaker 3: takes over. You know, you did this to me, We're
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  Speaker 3: doing this to you, et cetera, et cetera. So, and
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  Speaker 3: I think what we what we have trying to do
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  Speaker 3: here is is is trying to see through the story
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  Speaker 3: because you know, Jesus speaks about the birth pangs, right,
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  Speaker 3: but boy, has this nation, has this regathering of the
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  Speaker 3: Jews to to to the land of to the land
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  Speaker 3: of their forefathers? Has this not been birthpang after birthpang
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  Speaker 3: after birthpang. And we'll get into some of these again,
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  Speaker 3: some of the history of there's just to see how
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  Speaker 3: how how gruesome it's been.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is. It's helpful in in evaluating
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  Speaker 1: again just the overall understanding of the theology VI Israel, you know,
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  Speaker 1: and what that looks like today. It hasn't taken it,
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  Speaker 1: has it. It took a back seat really in many ways,
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  Speaker 1: I would say for most of the church history ever since.
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  Speaker 1: I would say one thirty five AD with the Barkakova revolt.
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  Speaker 1: It hasn't been Israel was kind of just, you know,
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  Speaker 1: again exiled into the nations of the world. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: there was always Jews in different parts, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: they had their ups and downs, no doubt, and certainly
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  Speaker 1: a lot of unfair and horrible persecution where they went.
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  Speaker 1: But the other challenge that you have is that now
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  Speaker 1: that they've God has gathered some not all, has gathered
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  Speaker 1: them back into the land. He says, you know, the
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  Speaker 1: in Ezekiel thirty eight, the mountains that were laid waste
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  Speaker 1: were wasted for a long time. For after a long
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  Speaker 1: period of time, now Jews are back in the mountains
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  Speaker 1: of Israel again. And so it forces the discussion. Now
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  Speaker 1: you could have avoided it two hundred years ago, but
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  Speaker 1: now here you have this group that God has brought
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  Speaker 1: back through miraculous means in the twentieth century. And it's
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  Speaker 1: not only do you have the Jews have to deal
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  Speaker 1: with it, as you just mentioned, but the nations now
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  Speaker 1: are being forced to have to deal with this little
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  Speaker 1: country that is condemned in the United Nations more than
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  Speaker 1: anybody else ever, you know, more than China, you know,
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  Speaker 1: all the human rights you name it, all the treatment
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  Speaker 1: of women, and all the Islamic countries those don't get,
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  Speaker 1: you know, condemned. But here you have this democratic nation
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  Speaker 1: that's trying to live like the world apart from God.
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  Speaker 1: You have a few twenty five percent religious there that
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  Speaker 1: they don't necessarily like the secular country. The government leaders anyway.
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  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, the world now
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  Speaker 1: is focused. And so you know, we're titling this the
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  Speaker 1: rogue state because that really is the perception of much
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  Speaker 1: of the world, is it not.
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  Speaker 3: It is, yes, It's amazing how any nations do not recognize,
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  Speaker 3: you know, the state of Israel. But of course, you know,
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  Speaker 3: you spoke about the UN, you know, the constant condemnation
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  Speaker 3: of Israel in the UN. Course they are now like
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  Speaker 3: was it one hundred and ninety five nations in the
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  Speaker 3: In the US it was not always thus because the
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  Speaker 3: UIT approved the partition plan and passed it with let
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  Speaker 3: me just get the it was thirty three, let me
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  Speaker 3: just get the numbers. It is. It is here somewhere
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  Speaker 3: they passed it the majority. I think it was they
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  Speaker 3: had about ten extensions, and I think it was past
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  Speaker 3: about thirty eight. Yeah, I'll we'll come, we'll come to
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  Speaker 3: these numbers. But yeah, but it was pasted, it was
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  Speaker 3: recognized by the UN majority majority nations did. But then
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  Speaker 3: you know, but immediately, of course, the the Arabs actually
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  Speaker 3: didn't just go to war against the new fledgling state
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  Speaker 3: of Israel because Ben Gurion declared declared the state what
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  Speaker 3: was fifteenth and May forty eight, wasn't it. They actually
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  Speaker 3: went to war against the United Nations, you know, the
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  Speaker 3: will of the United Nations. Now, of course we've seen
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  Speaker 3: the United Nations more beyond all recognition to to you know,
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  Speaker 3: to to what it is now. But we mentioned as
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  Speaker 3: previously the U n was actually was a bit of
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  Speaker 3: an Anglo American creation, and then it was sadly obviously
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  Speaker 3: it was in James's Palace here with Churchill getting those
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  Speaker 3: nations against fighting against Nazi tyranny, and then of course
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: with Roosevelt and the Atlantic Charter, Roosevelt and Churchill there
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: and there just off the course of America. So they
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: met and that was fed in then too, this into
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: the into the sort of the framework of this new
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: institution because basically what they did, what they decided that listen,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: the League of Nations has collapsed. That didn't work. We
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: just can't keep going to war with each other. There
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: has to be a place where we can all sit
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: around and talk and work out our differences. So again,
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: the best intentions in the world in ter are trying
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: to We do not want another second another World war,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: so you know, let's let's do this. And then, of
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: course it was it was Roosevelt, I think who came
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: up with the actual name, the United Nations. Churchill said, no,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I like that, so that's where it was adopted. But
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: you know, back in back in those days, of course,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: when you had like fifty eight nations of fifty three
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: nations something like around about that, they were predominantly it
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: was predominantly a Western driven organization, right. But of course
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: now you know, you know, your country, my country to
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: certainly israel I kind of lone voices really at the UN,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: you know, you know where now it's it's it's And
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I read also just before we did this there are
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: nine hundred and twenty I don't know if you knew this,
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: but there one hundred and twenty one countries in a
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: non aligned movement that didn't align with either either of
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: the superpowers. And they are the biggest, they are the
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: biggest grouping in the United Nations. But again a lot
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: of those don't recognize the State of Israel. So even
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: though the UN recognized it. But the thing about the
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: UN is that once a nation is recognized, it cannot
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: be it cannot be dissolved. So the only way the
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: state of Israel itself, and I think this is where
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: you know, eschatologically, is it going to come to this?
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: I think it probably will. The only way that the
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: only way that the United Nations can unrecognize the State
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: of Israel is if the United Nations itself is dissolved. Right,
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: So this is why it's in a bind. This is
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: why they pass all these resolutions and they get themself
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: further into a bind. And of course then you have
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: the veto powers of the five permanent members and so
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: you know, and Israel is like the football in the
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: in in in the United Nations. But like you said, yeah,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: nobody ever condemns Iran, or nobody ever condemns you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: any of the humanitarians. I mean, what's happening again now
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: in Syria, right, that's flared up again. You know as
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: sad As what he killed three hundred thousand of his own,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: of his own people, and you see nobody walk in
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: the streets, no quotes, there no protests. Free Syria, Free Syria.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: It's only ever free Palestine. So you have to ask
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: the question, why why is this? Why is this such
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: a small country, Why does it have such a stranglehold
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: on the world's conscience? You know, because gone.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I think that is the exact question which even the
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: most ardent skeptic or even somebody that doesn't necessarily believe
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: the Bible. To me, you people have to take a
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: look and go, yeah, why is that? And for us
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: with the biblical lens, we know the answer because it's
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: a spiritual issue. I mean that it's a spiritual issue
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: where the enemy of humanity certainly is Satan, but even
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: more so the enemy of Israel is Satan, no doubt,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: because why he knows Israel has a future. And that's
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: why we see in Revelation chapter twelve, ultimately the son
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of the son of Satan, the Antichrist figure, if we
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: want to talk about that, goes to genocide.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: His goal.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: We see that clearly. He goes to make war and
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: to dissolve and to get rid of the woman there,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: so whatever that. But nevertheless, you see the persecution against
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the people of Israel, which is no surprise. And so
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: when you look at the anti Semitism around the world
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: and you think about the thinking of the world, right,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: we're not to be conformed to this world, right, we're
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: to be transformed. So you see that in Romans twelve.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: You see it in First John that the world speaks
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: to itself and the world listens to itself. But who's
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: the ruler of the world. Well, Jesus told us who
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: that is. In the Gospel of John, we see that
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: the whole world lies under the power of the wicked.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: When in First John five, you know nineteen. So to me,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: when you see all these scriptures come together, it's not
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: surprising then that the world would speak in unison against
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the people of Israel, which just reveals again it's a
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: spiritual issue.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And ultimately, I mean, you know, when this movement began,
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: you know, we discussed as previously began in the it
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: began here really the Restorationist movement, and the thinking behind
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: the Restorationist movement was the Jews returning to the land
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: of the Forefathers to facilitate the Second coming of Jesus, right, well,
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: that that narrative really dies at the end of the
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: eighteenth Yeah, at the end of the night eighteen hundreds,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: right it, So you know, at the end of the
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: eighteen hundreds that that sort of dies. There are a
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: few people who are holding on to it, but for
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: the most part, it's it's not about fulfilling prophecy now.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Now it's more it becomes more of a geopolitical thing.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: But of course there's still there is still the the
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: you know, it still has its has its great champions,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: like Winston Churchill is a great champion of of of
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: of the Jews returning and of course we discussed that
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: last time that he was booted out of office and
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: he he had hoped for this Anglo American partnership to
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: be able to establish this this homeland in Palestine as
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: it then was for the Jews, bringing them to statehood,
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: et cetera. But the Anglo American thing didn't really didn't
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: really take off. So, you know, we're getting too then
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: into into the ie we want to do this now,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: but into like the second part we talked about these
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: birth pangs, uh, the second part of the story again
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: mon just to see that, you know how this thing
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: is edged forward, just you know, step upon step and
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: then a backstep and a forward step. But it's just
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: been so painful for the for the entire region. And
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: and it's and it's a it's it's it's a will
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: it's a problem the world cannot fix unless they that
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: you either do it. You either by getting rid of
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Israel completely, the state of Israel, of course, which the
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: West will not do because the West is Israel's sponsor,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: or you know, for some sort of two state solution
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: which is also unworkable, or for a single state. We'll
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: we'll talk about these things, whether it's a single Israel
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Greater Israel state, so a one state solution that was
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: not going to work, or whether it's a one state
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: Palestinian state that's not going to work either. So it's
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: just like none of this stuff is going to work.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: But you'll notice that changed the flags here for this
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: episode because I feel we need to give we need
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: to give another apartment of this Israel story. It's I
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: tried to find one where I could put all four
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: flags together, the British, the British flag, the Israeli flag,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: the stars and stripes, and then the trickle and the
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: French trickler. But it wouldn't you won't do it. So
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: I've had to sacrifice the stars of stripes. Sorry, everyone,
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: just just for this episode, because what's really interesting is
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: that that that here's something that I don't know if
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: you it's something that that said that that President Harry Truman.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: I just thought there was just something that he said.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: So Truman. Actually, so the first country to recognize the
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: state of Israel is is the USSR, right, it's Joseph Stalin.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Truman comes along very quickly after that and recognize it.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: But I just I just noticed here something As an American,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: you might want to speak into this. So here's Harry Truman,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: and he says, and of course he gets this accolade
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: of being Cyrus, you know, and I know he does
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: a great work. He brings, he brings, it brings really
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: the free world along with recognizing the state of Israel.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: And he says, here, the Jews I find are very
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: very selfish. They care not how many Stonies, Latvians, Finns, Poul's,
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Yugoslavs and Greeks get murdered or mistreated as displaced persons,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: as long as the Jews get special treatment, yet when
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: they have power, physical, financial, or political, neither Hitler nor
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: the underdog. And I thought that is a pretty that's
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: a pretty wild statement, right, That's that's that's that's almost
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't think he was anti Semitic.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: It's almost bordering on that kind of language, isn't it.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean to say that they're worse than
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: Hitler or Styling, But either way, he's very frustrated with
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: the Zis, the zion Is themselves. So but what people
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: may not be aware of is that is that the
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: Israel's closest ally because America enforces about an hours embargo
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: on the region, it will not participate in this. In this,
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: in this war of independence, the British already have armed
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: treaties with the Arab nations, so they've already supplied them,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: and Israel gets its weapons from the USSU, effectively from
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Czechoslovakia to fight to fight the war. That that what's
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: called the First Arab Israeli War, the War of independence again,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: but which is like the the Although the UN had
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: declared the partition, he had no way to enforce it
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: except you know, is everybody going to agree with this?
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: And no know that. But then the British faund that
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: I either the Arabs were not just going to agree
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: with it. I will get into why that is the case,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: whether that it's a legitimate in one says it's legitimate,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: and then in another sense, perhaps it's illegitimate, but we'll
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: get into we'll get into that. So but anyway, the
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: closest ally that Israel has over the next twenty years
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: is France. So the whole idea about you know, is
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Israel and nuclear power. She won't say whether she is
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: or whether she isn't ambiguity you know, have you Well,
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: if it is, and I think we all think it is,
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: it gets it. It gets its nuclear technology from France,
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: not from America or from Britain, because it's France has
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: its own nuclear nuclear program. It's independent nuclear program. So yeah,
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: so so then then then there's a there's a second war.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: We can't go to too much detail, but which is
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: kind of like want to go through the four major
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: walls that go that Israel has where they gain territory
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: and then they see it again and then they gain
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: it back and then they give it back again. All
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: of this desire to find this place of peace in
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: the Middle East, of acceptance by all the nations that
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: you know, or the surrounding nations, and of course you
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: know much two Churchills. We will go back into him.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: But most of Churchill's disappointment because he got kicked out,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: you know, he said, I can't do anything more about this.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: But he's actually elected back into off the Downing Street
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty one. He only stays there a couple
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: of years. Nineteen fifty three he hands over to his
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: foreign secretary called Anthony Eden. He's his foreign secretary. Antony
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: Eden then becomes Prime Minister. Then we have this scenario
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: it's called now the Second Arab Israeli War here is
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: known as the Suez Crisis is nineteen fifty six, and
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: basically the story behind that is General Nasa Abdul Nasa
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: of Egypt that he's the first Pan Arab leader. He
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: sees himself as this, you know, maybe have his own
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: like caliphate what have you. I don't know why they
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: call it in the Egyptian Islamic world, but that he
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: sees himself as his pan a lead of course he
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: now France had built the Sewers Canal, Britain had kind
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: of financed it and had administered it, had ministered it
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: as well. But Nasa wants to, he wants to, he
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: wants to nationalize the Sewers Canal. And then he's also
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: forbidding Israeli shipping to come through the canal. What have you.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: So with this on the pretext of all the pretense,
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: somebody would say of freeing the canal, Britain, France and
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Israel concoct a plan to invade Egypt and to take
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: over retake the canal. And then so Israel has got
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: to come down through the through obviously through the Sinai Pinions,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: to take over the Sine Eye Pinis, which it does
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: with relative ease. Britain and France effectively paratroute themselves into
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Egypt and and and take over the the place with
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: little force, but the two great powers at that particular time,
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: the two superpowers. In fact, this is what historians say
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: is what really seals Britain's fate as a superpower in
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: the region, because it never it never then sort of
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: seeks to to impose itself upon that region again independently
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: it's a it's a it's a humiliation for Britain, but
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: it actually comes about from the humiliation. Britain is caught
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: between a pencil move between the United States and America
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: and the Soviet Union because they're they're they're now in
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: this Cold War, you know, they're leading the Cold War.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: The Russians, the Soviets are making noises. The Americans are saying, well,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: you know, and literally the Russians the Soviets tell the
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Americans you call off Britain, of France or otherwise this
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: is going into a wider conflict because you had circles
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: of influence. And of course at that time, Israel wasn't
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: was as I understand, it was a non aligned, a
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: non aligned nation because it had received its support from
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: the Soviets right at the beginning of its independence. And
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: of course and America was was ambi ambivalent or ambiguous
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: towards Israel for this the next twenty years. There wasn't
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: arms embargo still in place Israel because America is doing
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: it's it's kind of it's it's hegemonic in terms of
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: you know, the Western influence. It's it's it's holding off
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: the Soviet influence or what have you. And of course
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: the Middle East is the is, the fighting is the
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: fighting is a battleground for influence, both for East and West.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: So so literally America, it's Eisenhower tells he tells Eden,
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: he says, if you don't withdraw, I'm going to sink
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: the British economy, I'll sink the pound, I will you know,
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: I'll sell all the government debt, what have you. So
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: Britain have had no option because we were still on
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: rat we'd come out of rations only two years, we
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: were still on rations fifty four, so we're heavily relying
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: on American support. So Britain obviously turned had to turn tail,
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: and it was it was a natural humiliation. Again, that
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: is where the uh that's where Britain really ceases its
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: role in the Middle East, and in fifty seven because
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: so it's the story of Israel getting the Sinai and
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: then they handed back in fifty seven they hand it
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: back to Egypt, right, and then this sort of like
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: you know, this this sort of like goes on then
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: all into the sixties. You then have somewhere that the
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Palace the PLO really forms in nineteen sixty four, I
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: believe it is under yes, the arafat As as something
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: of a national identity. Now, of course Palestinians today will
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: dispute that discount that said, no, we always had a
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: national identity, right, I'm not. It's just that this is
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: this is how people are viewing history. And then you
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: get to like the third Arab Israeli War, and it
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: gets it's called the Sixth Day War, and that again
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: is Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq. And again it's
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: it's really it's the it's the British, it's the British
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: Franco alliance with Israel. Because Israel actually fights this war.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: America has now has just begun to sort of drip
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: weapons into Israel. So America actually Israel actually fights that
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: war with with British and French, French weapons, you know, armaments.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: So again you have that, you have the Sixth Day War.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: We all know what happens there. Israel gains the West
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: Bank and the Sinai again, Gaza and the Golden Heights. Right.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: And what's really interesting about that Sixth Day War is
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: is that so the Jordanians had had had had the
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: West Bank from forty seven all the way to sixty seven,
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: right for twenty years, and it didn't cross their mind
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: to create a Palestinian state because their ambition was to
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: annex annex that and then hopefully in the Sixth Day War,
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: was to get more territory from Israel, so to expand
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: the Jordanian state. But why did the Jordanians not consider
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: creating a Palestinian state there in the West Bank.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Your thoughts wando, Well, what you do see them doing
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: is creating a Jordanian citizenship for all of them, you know,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: basically from forty eight to sixty seven, after the First War,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: you know, that War of Independence, and so they had
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: again there was This is the kind of the myth
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: that you have is that you had this separate identity
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: of the Jordanians versus the Palestinians.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: That's simply not the case by any stretch at all.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: They were originally Jordanians and it wasn't until later that
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: the Jordanians washed their hands of it, stripped them all
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: of Jordanian citizenship, and then left them really their own people,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: kind of in limbo but officially distancing themselves from it.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: So the it's you know, fact and myth are often inconvenient.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: And this is what we kind of tried to pick through,
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: isn't it. You know that the myth of the a
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: mythic history as it were. But yeah, it's the Jordanians,
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: so for twenty years could have created if they had
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: created a Palestinian state in the West Bank when they
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: had it, it would exist today. I agree, Yep, it
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: would absolutely because they and what happens it is golden
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: my ear, isn't it. She she's kind of as I've
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: read read up on this, she's sent on the Sixth
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Day War. She's sent to Jordan to say, do not
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: fire a shot, do not like this is like Egypt
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: and Syria, you know, mainly who are who are? You
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: know driving from the south and driving from the north.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: And Jordan was invited or told stay out, do not
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: enter the war. And if that, if if they had
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: stayed out, they would still have the West Bank. They
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: would because because Israel simply wasn't going to, you know,
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: on three fronts, was not going to fight that war
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: on three fronts. The Palestinians of course, still wouldn't have
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: a state. And that's why the Palestinians feel that they've
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: been sold out by Jordan as well. You know, they
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: look at Jordan as well. Let me just say this.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: In fact, the Palestinians would have had a state. It
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: would have been the State of Jordan.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, right, yeah, yeah, but not but not an
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: independent Palestinian stay on the on the west bank of
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: the Jordan, on the Jordan River. So the Jordanians thought, well,
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: here's an opportunity. Now is reely going to lose this war.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: We can get more territory there on the west bank
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: and extend our and you know, the Egyptians will take
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: some of it. The series will take somewhere and it's
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: nineteen forty seven all over again. It's like they haven't
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: really learned, haven't really learned the lesson there. And so
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: you know what happens is that Jordanians do not stay
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: out of the war and they lose their entire they
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: lose the entire territory of and they lose East Jerusalem.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: You know, so again we mentioned though you mentioned this
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: before about it. One says it's a defensive war for Israel,
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: but they went on the offensive, and of course they
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: those who the jordan then lost lost the territory. And
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: of course this now creates the problem because what as
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: now the United Nations do with this? And so they
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: create this the UN resolution two four to two, which
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: is still kind of causing problems today. But again that's
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: kind of like it's another it's another document which which
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: is full of ambiguities. Is a bit like the Balfour Declaration.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like it's promising two things and neither
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: can be delivered. But what's really interesting is is that
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: the the Israelis, the Egyptians, the Syrians and anything, even
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: the Jordans all agree to the UN resolution two four two.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: We'll read what the resolution is now, but they but
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: they agree to it. But the Palestinians actually believe that
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: this is an Anglo American Israeli stitch up because it
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: was actually a resolution sponsored by Britain because they were
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: trying to then, you know, obviously with the backing of
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: the United States, and then you know, and fifteen nations
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: on the Security Council voted unanosary for this resolution. So
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: what's really interesting about this resolution? If I can find it,
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: it is on my system here somewhere. Yes, So the
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: resolution two four two, twenty second November sixty seven, it's
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: land for peace, that Israel would withdraw from territories occupied
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: in the war in exchange for peace with the Arab world,
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: respect for sovereignty. All states in the area would respect
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: each other's sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence, right to
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: live in peace. Israel would have the right to live
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: in peace within secure and recognized boundaries. Territorial claims. All
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: parties would end territorial claims and termination of belligeracy states,
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: so Beligeracy would be terminated. But there's a problem here
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: immediately because it's recognized between states. So what is Israel
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: going to do? Well, return it to return it to
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Jordan because Jordan kind of illegally owned that for twenty years. Okay,
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: but that's the state which is responsible for There is
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: no Palestinian state, so of course this idea then that, well,
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: this is territory going to be given to a Palestinian
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: state that has kind of found its way into this resolution.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: But really, when you're looking at this, it's just a
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: case of the ceasing of hostilities between states. There is
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: no Palestinian state. What the world understands now is the
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: West Bank. Let's call it the West Bank because that's
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: what they determined as has been under military occupation now
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: for all of these years. But who are the Israel
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: going to hand it back to? And what's really interesting
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: is that in nineteen seventy, in ninety so nineteen sixty
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: seven with the three nose of the Arab League, got Khartom,
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: no recognition of Israel, no negotiations, and no peace with Israel.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: So you know, this resolution is dead in the water anyway,
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: you know how you actually going to go into progress?
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: This interesting ninety seventy one, the PLO tries to overthrow
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: the Jordanium monarchy, and Jordan expelled the PLO, and then
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: they moved to Jordan, right because they want to destabilize.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: And of course then we have the piece agreements Egypt
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: Camp David in ninety seventy eight, and again it's this
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: idea of Israel gets Israel, gets a Sinai again gives
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: it back to Egypt for a piece agreement. But in
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight relink which is all right, to the
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: West Bank. And then in nineteen ninety four the Piece
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: Treaty between Jordan and Israel happens, and then the Oslo
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Accords and then this West Bank is divided into area,
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: zones of influence and who's controlling what. So it's an
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: almighty mess effectively, and sort of still is. I don't
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: know if you want to finish, you know, close off
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: with what we're going to you know, do you want
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: to close off with anything? Yeah?
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Just you know, I think what we've only scratched the
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: surface of the of the depth of the complications that
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: exist between all of the groups. And and and again
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: there's there's legal there's legal inconsistencies with the United Nations,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: there's historical inconsistencies, there's land grabs by these countries that
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: have been created, you know, after World War One. And
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: so this is this is you couldn't create a what
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: do they call it, some kind of not you know
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: that whatever the phrase is, you couldn't create a more complex,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: unsolvable situation than what we have here. And I think,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: as we were discussing, this really is part of God's design.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I really think in his sovereignty, this is part of
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: the design that the only way it's truly ever going
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: to be solved, not even to human satisfaction, honestly, because
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: the humans will still have their disagreements, and of course
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: they're not gonna like what God does. But this goes
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: back to Psalm two. God says, I will set my
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: king on my holy hill of Zion and he'll rule
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: from there. End of story. And so you know what
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: they plot a vain thing. They're raging against him pal too.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: But God laughs because he's.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: Like, this is my plan.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: You're not gonna stop it.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, you know, and all the way from him.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: You talk about the nations we're created in nineteen you know,
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: in nineteen seventeen, you know, with the French British carv
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: of the region. I mean in God's plan too, thank goodness,
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: because you could could you know, could you imagine if
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: there was one just giant Arab state, you know, in
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: existence now, that Israel wouldn't exist. So these states, these
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: Arab states, I bet he have been at each other's throkes,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: and in that it has allowed Israel and the Jews
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: to return. So all of this is in God's plan
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: and it's the vein it's the like you say, the
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: vain imaginations on nations, because ultimately God wants to bring
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: this down to the return of the Jewish Messiah to
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: the land of Israel. End of story. Like how you
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: said that, yeah, in the story.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: Well, Graham, I appreciate you you're coming today. Everybody else
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: as you're watching, appreciate you guys being here. Stick around.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: We have a lot of further episodes to discuss again
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: this whole dilemma all the way up until the Lord's
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: return and what it looks like, and also you know,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: the pros and cons. I mean, there's humanism, There's there's
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: a human element here in the sense of, you know,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: we're waiting for Jesus to return, but that's not happened yet.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: So in the meantime, how do we navigate the waters
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: of trying to understand theologically? Who does the land belong to?
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: You know, does Israel deserve to be in the land?
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, these are some of the things that that
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: I've been discussing lately in my travels around you know,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: around the world, and talking about again the theology of Israel.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: It's in the New Testament, certainly, it's in most of
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: the Bible. We need to have some understanding of this.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Any final thoughts, Graham, No, I mean, yeah, we'll try
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: and deal with some of the some of the solutions
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: that are being proposed.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: On the next one, we dealt with the history, and
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: I think we need to deal with the history of
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: Mondo just to see, Yeah, this is a right or
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: mess and everybody has their story, everybody has their claims,
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: everybody you know, but and maybe legitimate too. But in
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: the end, as Christians, I think we have to we
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: have to see the end of this. Mondo is not
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: democracy in the Middle East like the West wants to see,
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: or even the Jews wants to see. It's not. It's
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: not an Islamic state. Theocratic state is as the Bible
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: presents and as we have to hold to, it's a
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: theocratic state, a theocratic kingdom. It's not even the state
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: a theocratic kingdom in the land of Israel with the
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: throne of David and the son of David's season on
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: that throne.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Amen, Amen, and amen. Thank you for watching everybody today.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Make sure they stick around and catch stick around the channel,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: catch us next time. It's always good. We'll see then.