Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host Series Susanne Babbel interviews Judyth Tsafrir

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Guest Host Series Susanne Babbel interviews Judyth Tsafrir · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
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Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
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Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
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Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
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Speaker 2: Welcome. I'm Susanna Babbitt and I'm the guest host for
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Speaker 2: Guy McPherson's Trauma Therapist podcast. And i have a private
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Speaker 2: practice in San Francisco with a PhD in somatic psychology,
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Speaker 2: and I'm also the author of Here the Body, Here's
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Speaker 2: the Mind. And I'm honored to be here with doctor
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Speaker 2: Judy Safria, who's a psychiatrist and astrologer and also the
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Speaker 2: author of Sacred Psychiatry. And I want to say that
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Speaker 2: as someone who grew up in Germany, that I'm away
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Speaker 2: of our history of generations that our generations carry and
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Speaker 2: it therefore it feels especially meaningful to sit here together
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Speaker 2: and talk about trauma today. And I would love to
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Speaker 2: begin with you and your personal path and your book
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Speaker 2: Sacred psycho Psychiatrists Psychiatry. You share parts of your own
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Speaker 2: journey that offers such a unique perspective, and I wonder
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Speaker 2: if you could tell us a bit about how your
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Speaker 2: own experiences shaped your work and a part of your
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Speaker 2: healing and your client's healing. Well.
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Speaker 3: I my dad was a psychiatrist and also a psychoanalyst
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Speaker 3: and also an astrologer. And when my parents both died
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Speaker 3: within a few months of each other in two thousand
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Speaker 3: and five, and also my marriage ended at the same time,
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Speaker 3: and I had three young children, I was kind of
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Speaker 3: putting one foot in front of another, just you know,
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Speaker 3: trying to kind of survive amidst these confluence of losses.
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Speaker 3: And that was the first time that I consulted a
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Speaker 3: professional astrologer, which isn't so strange given my dad's interest
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Speaker 3: in it, and it was something that I was always
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Speaker 3: aware of. But up until that point, I had practiced
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Speaker 3: fairly conventionally as a psychoanalyst psychiatrist, which already is not
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Speaker 3: that typical because most psychiatrists are not psychoanalysts and are
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Speaker 3: more psychopharmacologists. But I consulted with that astrologer, and I
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Speaker 3: was so blown away by my conversation with her, and
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Speaker 3: I found it so meaningful and so moving and so
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Speaker 3: insightful that I went back to see her multiple times
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Speaker 3: to look at the charts of my children and charts
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Speaker 3: of family members and to make sense of my life,
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Speaker 3: and then eventually decided that I wanted to become an
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Speaker 3: astrologer myself, and then I subsequently apprenticed myself to two
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Speaker 3: well known astrologers, and that was kind of the beginning
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Speaker 3: of the journey of opening up my practice to all
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Speaker 3: kinds of different holistic modalities, including functional medicine, like functional psychiatry,
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Speaker 3: you know, like really addressing things like environmentally acquired illness
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Speaker 3: and like mold toxicity and learning about the connection between
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Speaker 3: the gut and the brain, which when I started investigating
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Speaker 3: that was way before it was like part of the
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Speaker 3: common in the media the way it is today. There
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Speaker 3: was no awareness of that. And I also did a
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Speaker 3: training in shamanism and energy healing, so I was just
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Speaker 3: adding one modality after another. And as I added these
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Speaker 3: different skills, I would bring them into my practice, and
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Speaker 3: my patients were always very willing to allow me to
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Speaker 3: try things out with them, and so that's really how
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Speaker 3: it all began. It was all very organic, and the
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Speaker 3: impetus stemmed from that time of like tremendous loss and
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Speaker 3: meeting an astrologer.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so fascinating and how your pass I led
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Speaker 2: you to a little bit of the mix of spirituality
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Speaker 2: and traditional psychiatry, and how did that help you to
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Speaker 2: You mentioned that you went to an astrology and then
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Speaker 2: you integrated that. How did it help you and your clients?
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Speaker 2: Did you get another higher perspective or how did it
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Speaker 2: help you?
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Speaker 3: It's just like you know, it's like another lens in
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Speaker 3: order to understand someone, so like I can understand my
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Speaker 3: life through my biography and my personality self and the
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Speaker 3: I know my parents' history, my ancestral history as far
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Speaker 3: as I know it, the trauma, the all of the
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Speaker 3: losses and difficulty in the family. Or there's another way
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Speaker 3: to look at things, and that is through the sacred
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Speaker 3: map of the birth chart. And it's not like either or.
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Speaker 3: They're both and and very complimentary and very often you
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Speaker 3: can see the personal biography in the birth chart, which.
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Speaker 2: I probably I think a lot of people don't know
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Speaker 2: that about astrology. They go on the weekly horoscope section
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Speaker 2: and the newspaper, on an app and they are not
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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people have the perception that's
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Speaker 2: maybe telling you about the future or general characters, but
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Speaker 2: you use it differently and you have a different perspective.
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Speaker 2: It sounds like about astrology. Can you tell us a
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Speaker 2: little bit more about that?
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Speaker 3: And there are many different schools of astrology, and there
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Speaker 3: are astrologers who are much more predictive than I am. Okay, yeah,
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Speaker 3: I have the perspective that I can say what the
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Speaker 3: archetypal energies are, I can say what the flavor of
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Speaker 3: the moment is, but I don't feel like I can
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Speaker 3: predict specific things. And there are astrologers who are able
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Speaker 3: to interpret the symbols and have a perspective that things
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Speaker 3: are much more destined than the type of astrology that
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Speaker 3: I practice, which is I mean definitely there. We come
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Speaker 3: into this lifetime with it's not a tabula rossa. We
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Speaker 3: come in with definite strengths and vulnerabilities and potentials, and
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Speaker 3: they're all like, in my mind, like invitations. And I
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Speaker 3: could never do an astrology reading without having a conversation
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Speaker 3: with the person that I was reading for, because the
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Speaker 3: archetypes can manifest in so many different ways and I
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Speaker 3: wouldn't know, like, for instance, let's take the archetype of Pisces.
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Speaker 2: That could be.
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Speaker 3: Somebody who was a mystic, very spiritually oriented, very attuned
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Speaker 3: to the connection with all that is, or it could
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Speaker 3: be somebody who had a significant problem with addiction. Like
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Speaker 3: both of those situations are represented by the archetype of Pisces,
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Speaker 3: So you don't know if you see that somebody has
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Speaker 3: a son in Pisces, whether that how they've made use
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Speaker 3: of that. And the son also can represent the father,
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Speaker 3: so like it may be that their father had a
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Speaker 3: problem with addiction, or that their father was absent, you know,
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Speaker 3: like it's you know that there are a range of
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Speaker 3: possibilities that are potential archetypal meanings of the planets and
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Speaker 3: the symbols, but you don't know what a person has
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Speaker 3: done with it. And very often, you know, like it's
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Speaker 3: very different doing a reading for somebody who's twenty than
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Speaker 3: a reading for someone who's sixty, because so much of
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Speaker 3: life has happened by the time you're sixty, and you
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Speaker 3: may have expressed many different phases of the archetype by
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Speaker 3: the time you're sixty.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also, it's an astrology. It's not just
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Speaker 2: that you need to know like I'm a Capricorn, so
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Speaker 2: but that's not enough. You need to know when you
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Speaker 2: were born, where you were born, and in minutes are
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Speaker 2: even really important. So it's not it's not just one
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Speaker 2: that you need to know. Oh it's Piscy, so it's
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Speaker 2: Capricorn you need to There's a lot of that.
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Speaker 3: When when you say I'm a Capricorn, that means that
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Speaker 3: when you were born, the sun was in the sign
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Speaker 3: of Capricorn. But you also have a moon, and you
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Speaker 3: also have a venus and a Mars and a Mercury
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Speaker 3: and a Saturn, and there's a particular point that was
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Speaker 3: on the eastern horizon depending upon the location of your
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Speaker 3: birth and the time of your birth, and that's your
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Speaker 3: rising sign. And so all of that those factors work together,
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Speaker 3: and sometimes the voices echo one another and there are
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Speaker 3: definite themes, and sometimes you're like wow, like how does
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Speaker 3: that fit together? That seems like such a clash. You know,
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Speaker 3: like somebody has like a very like a collection of
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Speaker 3: planets that signify a big concern with security and safety,
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Speaker 3: and then you'll see another symbol in their chart where
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Speaker 3: they're extremely risks taking and adventurous, and like, how does
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Speaker 3: that work together?
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Speaker 2: Yes? And I wonder does that inform odds of how
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Speaker 2: one maybe reacts to trauma or even if say are
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Speaker 2: born to experience trauma or something like that.
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Speaker 3: There are symbols in the birth chart that make you
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Speaker 3: definitely wonder if a person had a traumatic early childhood
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Speaker 3: the family that they were born into. The there's definitely
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Speaker 3: symbols that represent that, but you don't know for sure
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Speaker 3: that that's what it was, but there are symbols that
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Speaker 3: are suggestive of that. And there's also like there's so many,
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Speaker 3: like there's defensive styles that are represented in the birth chart.
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Speaker 3: So let's say somebody has a lot of Virgo energy
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Speaker 3: in their birth chart, Well, they may cope with their
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Speaker 3: anxiety by being very perfectionistic and trying to dot all
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Speaker 3: the i's and cross all the t's and make sure
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Speaker 3: that they get everything right. And a person who has
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Speaker 3: like a very strong Scorpio signature, like they may respond
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Speaker 3: to their trauma by becoming very controlling and suspicious. You
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Speaker 3: don't know, you know, like what a person does with
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Speaker 3: a particular archetype energy, as I've said, But there are
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Speaker 3: like different styles suggested by the confluence of energies that
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Speaker 3: a person has in their chart. Like I said, somebody
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Speaker 3: has a lot of Pisces energy, well, they may be
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Speaker 3: very prone to numbing and checking out and association.
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Speaker 2: So that's so interesting. So like if somebody has experienced trauma,
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Speaker 2: then you already know that they maybe have they are
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Speaker 2: more likely maybe to dissociate, which means likely you have
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Speaker 2: a feeling of leaving your body checking out. Yeah, you know, And.
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Speaker 3: I definitely That's why I say I like to always
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Speaker 3: have a conversation because I want to ask. I don't
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Speaker 3: want to tell them you know who they are and
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Speaker 3: what they're like. I want to ask them, you know,
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Speaker 3: like this is often seen. I see this signature often
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Speaker 3: in people who have this kind of quality. Do you
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Speaker 3: resonate with that?
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Speaker 1: You know?
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Speaker 2: And then you also see where their strengths are and
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Speaker 2: you kep absolutely that yeah, one hundred percent.
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Speaker 3: And also like you can see that they may have
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Speaker 3: like very like unmistakable strengths that they're not expressing. You
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Speaker 3: know that you see in their chart that it's loaded
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Speaker 3: with creativity or loaded with power, and they're living their
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Speaker 3: life in a very victimized position that they haven't accessed,
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Speaker 3: that they're not aware of that about themselves.
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Speaker 2: I'm curious with you because you discovered astrology, was that
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Speaker 2: in your chart that you were that you were also
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Speaker 2: I don't know you signed, but that you were also
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Speaker 2: supposed to bridge astrology spirituality with traditional approaches. Was that
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Speaker 2: something that you were also supposed to express.
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Speaker 3: I mean, there's there's a lot of different symbols in
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Speaker 3: my chart. I mean, I have Chiron, which is, uh,
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Speaker 3: it's an It's it's hard to classify what Chiren is,
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Speaker 3: but some people say it's an asteroid or a centaur,
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Speaker 3: and Chiron for me is an Aquarius, and chirn like
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Speaker 3: the moniker, is the wounded healer. So everybody has a
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Speaker 3: Chiron in their chart, but it's in different signs depending
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Speaker 3: upon when you were born. So mine is an Aquarius,
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Speaker 3: and Aquarius is like, you know, like new Age, you know,
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Speaker 3: it's like something of the future. And it's also like
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Speaker 3: non conforming. So my healing style is outside the box.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's so beautiful. It's not easy. I remember
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Speaker 2: when I studied somatic psychology that wasn't very common back then,
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Speaker 2: and it was this woo woo kind of.
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Speaker 3: Now you're like right in the of what people recognized
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Speaker 3: is incredibly central.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so that's I wonder how that was for
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Speaker 2: you too. Was that what you had to go through also?
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Speaker 3: Well? You know, I mean mainstream still doesn't accept astrology, right,
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Speaker 3: I mean that like the Academy, you know, like so much,
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Speaker 3: like it's the gold standard of superstition. But millennials are
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Speaker 3: tremendously interested in astrology, and you know, like I I
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Speaker 3: started my astrological studies in two thousand and eight, which
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Speaker 3: was before it became so popular.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that it's not that easy to be you know,
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Speaker 2: it kind of start the past being the pioneer, let's
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Speaker 2: see pioneer.
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Speaker 3: Oh, it just it just totally suited me. I didn't
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Speaker 3: feel I mean I did. I do remember initially, you know,
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Speaker 3: like feeling some con whether or not I should be
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Speaker 3: kind of out of the closet as an astrologer on
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Speaker 3: my psychiatry website, you know, yes. And I had like
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Speaker 3: a shamanic healing session with a practitioner who was also
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Speaker 3: like a I mean she was from like Connecticut, but
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Speaker 3: she was like a Korean trained in Korean Buddhism, and
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Speaker 3: she did a wonderful session with me, and I remember
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Speaker 3: her saying to me. I remember expressing to her my
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Speaker 3: kind of concern about being out there and out of
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Speaker 3: the closet, and she said to me, you'll draw to
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Speaker 3: you the people who are your tribe, who are interested
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Speaker 3: in what you have to offer. And that was like
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Speaker 3: such good advice, you know, because that is totally true,
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Speaker 3: because people come to see me because of who I.
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Speaker 2: Am exactly exactly. Yeah, it's so beautiful. And may I say, like,
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Speaker 2: if you hadn't experienced the loss that you experienced, maybe
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Speaker 2: that wouldn't have pushed you into astrology and the sacred path.
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Speaker 2: Maybe that is that something you that resonates with you.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think, like I mentioned Chiron, Yeah,
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Speaker 3: that wounded hell. Yes, And like every planet has its
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Speaker 3: cycle and its periodicity, and so like the Moon goes
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Speaker 3: around the Earth in twenty eight twenty nine days, the
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Speaker 3: Earth goes around the Sun in three hundred and sixty
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Speaker 3: five days. Saturn has a twenty nine year cycle, Chiron
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Speaker 3: has a fifty year cycle. Forty nine fifty year cycle.
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Speaker 3: So when a planet comes back to the place that
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Speaker 3: it was at the time of your birth, it's particular
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Speaker 3: particularly pronounced, like its energy is really up for you. So,
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Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people come to my practice
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Speaker 3: when they're forty nine to fifty and they're having their
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Speaker 3: Chiron return. And I was having my Chiron return when
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Speaker 3: all of that happened, and so it made like so
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Speaker 3: much sense that like a lot of my Chiron return
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Speaker 3: was about empowering me to kind of show up as
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Speaker 3: my authentic self, you know, and feeling empowered to do that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that must have helped you to feel also
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Speaker 2: once you because you could express who you really are.
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Speaker 2: Wonder if it also make you done more resilient and
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Speaker 2: it helped you to have another perspective of healing yourself
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Speaker 2: and others.
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Speaker 3: That's right. And you know, one of the ideas of
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Speaker 3: chiron is that you're healing from the wound, you know,
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Speaker 3: like like so because I know of like ways in
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Speaker 3: which I experienced hurt, it's like that healing of that
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Speaker 3: is a medicine that I can offer to other people.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, we just have a few minutes in
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Speaker 2: such a short time. But is there something that you
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Speaker 2: want to pass on to people who are listening and
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Speaker 2: who've maybe experienced trauma or have witnessed or have somebody
19:20
Speaker 2: in their life.
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Speaker 3: That I often asked a question like this at the
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Speaker 3: end of interviews, and I always want to say the
19:28
Speaker 3: same thing because I like it, and that is that
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Speaker 3: I mean, we are literally made of stardust. Our bodies
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Speaker 3: are made of stardust. We are made of all of
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Speaker 3: the elements that come from the cosmos, and we're connected
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Speaker 3: to the stars and we're connected to all that is.
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Speaker 3: And very often when people experience trauma, they feel very alone,
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Speaker 3: and that's an illusion like we are all connected and
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Speaker 3: connected to everything, and if one can tune in to
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Speaker 3: that reality, it helps with resilience.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and just you know, we're just thinking too, like
20:07
Speaker 2: when we have it helps to have a bigger perspective
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Speaker 2: and another right and and for example, in AA with
20:16
Speaker 2: people of addictions, that's what's helping them to get through
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Speaker 2: the other side. And so I wonder if like that's
20:23
Speaker 2: not only for people who have an addiction, it's also
20:26
Speaker 2: for people right.
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Speaker 3: And and that's so missing from the conventional paradigm, is
20:33
Speaker 3: like totally missing, like even allergic to it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Like it's something that is more like that's
20:39
Speaker 2: when you're crazy or but it's such an essential part of.
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Speaker 3: Essential and something that people long for and resonate with
20:48
Speaker 3: and it is, yes, helpful.
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Speaker 2: So it's so beautiful that you bring it together. I
20:53
Speaker 2: am so glad and I hope lots of people read
20:55
Speaker 2: your book. I read it. It's amazing. I love it,
21:00
Speaker 2: and I've done a lot of workshops and I've done
21:03
Speaker 2: a lot of work, but there were things that I
21:07
Speaker 2: didn't know as well. So it's good for anyone someone
21:11
Speaker 2: who's had a long path of spirituality or is long
21:15
Speaker 2: path of traditional approaches. I feel that it has something for
21:20
Speaker 2: everyone because it is mixed.
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Speaker 3: In the heart of the book is developing a multi
21:26
Speaker 3: dimensional sense of the self, and that means like, how
21:29
Speaker 3: do you develop a spiritual practice? And there's a lot
21:32
Speaker 3: of ideas in there about how one can do that,
21:35
Speaker 3: and that can be so helpful when people don't know
21:38
Speaker 3: they want it, but they don't know how to go about.
21:41
Speaker 2: It, and where can people find you?
21:45
Speaker 3: My name Judy Severe MD dot com. And then I
21:49
Speaker 3: have a very popular Instagram channel, which is the name
21:55
Speaker 3: of my book, Sacred Underscore Psychiatry, and I post their
21:59
Speaker 3: really little reels about what's on my mind.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I see you on there, and it's nice to
22:05
Speaker 2: see you on there that I got to know you
22:07
Speaker 2: that way a little bit before our interview, so it
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Speaker 2: was really nice. Thank you so much. Thank you for
22:13
Speaker 2: making the time, and we're very welcome. Yeah, I'm very welcome.
22:16
Speaker 2: I enjoyed talking with you me too, all right, thank you,