Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Darwin Barrister John Lawrence says he's fed up with the treatment of kids in Don Dale Detention Centre

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Darwin Barrister John Lawrence says he's fed up with the treatment of kids in Don Dale Detention Centre · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Because, as I said, yesterday, the Minister for Territory Family's
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Kate Warden, she gave an update on the construction on
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: the new Darwin Youth Justice Center, following what has been
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: called a lengthy consultation and design phase. Now, when completed
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: next year, the center's going to deliver what the government
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: has described as the most progressive youth justice infrastructure in Australia,
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  Speaker 1: having been informed by extensive stakeholder consultation. Now, for some
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: this needs to happen sooner, and there has been calls
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: in recent weeks for the center to be shut immediately.
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  Speaker 1: The Minister held an event yesterday, a media event at
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  Speaker 1: that new site and it was crashed by youth justice
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  Speaker 1: advocates and also John Lawrence. Sc Now John Lawrence joins
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  Speaker 1: me in the studio right now. Good morning to you, John,
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  Speaker 1: Good morning Kitty John. Why did you crash that event yesterday?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's just part of our movements activities. Really. I
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  Speaker 2: was interested personally in actually hearing the presentation, so I
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: just drove in. That was your key. But then they
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: asked me to leave because I was invited, and they
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: sort of pulled the wool over my eyes or they
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: got the better off me by saying that you didn't
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  Speaker 2: have a crash helmet and it was an on site
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: thing which was in breach of the work health. Like
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  Speaker 2: asked them for a crash helmet and then they refused me.
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  Speaker 2: They said, you're not on the invite list. But that's
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  Speaker 2: what civil disobedience is all about, direct action, and that's
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  Speaker 2: what I've chosen to do at this stage of my
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  Speaker 2: career thirty five years. And the reason I do it
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  Speaker 2: is because I don't see any alternative to it, because
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  Speaker 2: we're in such a mess. And let me just say
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  Speaker 2: this firstly, and I'm not being critical. You're busier than me.
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  Speaker 2: I just wanted to record I'm a bit disappointed that
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  Speaker 2: I'm only going to get ten minutes with you to
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  Speaker 2: discuss an issue which I consider extremely important. And the
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: reason I consider it really important. It's not about politics,
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  Speaker 2: it's not about logistics and times, it's not about the law.
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  Speaker 2: This issue that we are demonstrating about is a moral issue.
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  Speaker 2: It's an ethical issue. It's about being decent in our society.
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  Speaker 2: And it's about another thing, it's about children. And it's
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  Speaker 2: the combination of those two things that makes us do
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  Speaker 2: what we are doing to try and get some decency
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  Speaker 2: injected into a system. Now, can I ask you forgive
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  Speaker 2: me a bit? Have you got children?
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  Speaker 3: I do, I've got two young ones.
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  Speaker 2: Right, congratulations. Is there anything more precious in your life
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  Speaker 2: than your children?
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  Speaker 3: Nothing at all more precious in my lofe than my children?
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  Speaker 2: That's right. And I've got four, and I'm the same,
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  Speaker 2: and we're virtually most of us are like that. And
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  Speaker 2: that's the story of man. That's the story of Homo
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  Speaker 2: sapiens for all over the world historically Japan, Bolivia, France, Scotland, Australia,
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  Speaker 2: indigenous society. Our most precious, precious commodity is our children.
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  Speaker 2: And because human beings are so vulnerable when they're young,
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  Speaker 2: we have a special relationship. We're not like the animals
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  Speaker 2: where they can survive in a short period. So there
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  Speaker 2: is nothing more valuable in this world and children. And
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  Speaker 2: so this is what this is about. Now, Can I
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  Speaker 2: just In Nazi Germany, there was a famous moral past
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  Speaker 2: that I don't know if you've heard of, from Dietrich
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  Speaker 2: Bonhoffer was famous. He took it up to Hitler, he
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  Speaker 2: was the head of the Lutheran Church, and they eventually
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  Speaker 2: executed him in a concentration camp weeks before it was
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  Speaker 2: liberated in nineteen forty five, and he said, the test
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  Speaker 2: of the morality of a society is what it does
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  Speaker 2: for its children. And I completely endorse that, John.
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  Speaker 1: I know there's going to be people listening right now
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  Speaker 1: who are thinking to themselves though, you know, we're talking
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  Speaker 1: about children who where are their parents when they're breaking
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  Speaker 1: into people's homes, or where are their parents or where
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  Speaker 1: are their families? You know, when they're committing crimes that
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  Speaker 1: they're terrorizing other kids in some cases.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we'll think about this. I consider a lot of
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  Speaker 2: these responses deflections from the fact that takes me to
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: the point of almost arrest yesterday, which is the fact
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  Speaker 2: that we are still treating children in down Dale in
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  Speaker 2: a horrible, horrible way. And I hear what these people
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  Speaker 2: are saying, and I also hear what they're saying about
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  Speaker 2: the parents. But the reality of it is is that
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  Speaker 2: those parents, we're in the same boat as the eleven
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  Speaker 2: year old that I'm representing. They were from a socially dysfunctional,
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  Speaker 2: horrendous upbringing, and a lot of it is that stream
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  Speaker 2: of Australian society which is quite unique and it's that
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  Speaker 2: that's the stolen generation component which we have a large
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  Speaker 2: part of our society, and that goes right back to
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  Speaker 2: the beginning when children were taken stolen and they were
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  Speaker 2: placed in camps. I was in this the Reted Dixon
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  Speaker 2: Royal Commission, where horrific things happen to those children, rapes,
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  Speaker 2: brutality and so forth. And most of these survivors have
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  Speaker 2: been seriously affected with generational trauma. So the parents of
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  Speaker 2: these eleven year olds have come from a similar upbringing
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  Speaker 2: as well, and it's a harvest of our neglect and
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  Speaker 2: the harvest of our history that we're trying to deal with.
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  Speaker 1: So, John, though, how do when we're talking about that
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  Speaker 1: generational trauma and we are talking about, you know, as
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  Speaker 1: you've said, the care of children, how do we then explain,
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  Speaker 1: you know, to some of these families that are indeed
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  Speaker 1: the victims of these children, how do we explain to
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  Speaker 1: them that, well, you know, you've just got to be
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  Speaker 1: patient and hope that you know, the youth justice system
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  Speaker 1: or that the system helps in some way, and that
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  Speaker 1: you don't become a victim of crime again.
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  Speaker 2: With great difficulty, because the way we're running the criminal
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  Speaker 2: justice system produces a certainty, which is when these kids
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  Speaker 2: get out with don Dale, they're going to do exactly
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  Speaker 2: the same. So there's nothing I can say that's going
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  Speaker 2: to persuade them or assuage their frustration and their anger.
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  Speaker 2: So it's not working. It's a broken system. But can
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  Speaker 2: I just go back? Because this is why we're doing it.
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  Speaker 2: This is why we're doing it. I'm doing it because
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  Speaker 2: I was brought into a case to represent an eleven
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  Speaker 2: year old right and a eleven year old boy from
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  Speaker 2: that stream of stolen generation whose both parents were from
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  Speaker 2: that stream of stolen generation. Both his parents were drug addicted.
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  Speaker 2: Both his parents engaged in heavy domestic violence, which he
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  Speaker 2: witnessed from under the table at times. Both his parents
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  Speaker 2: went in and out of jay. His upbringing was a nightmare. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Psychologists have tested this kid. They've said that his brain
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  Speaker 2: is damaged, which can happen when you're sitting in the
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  Speaker 2: most stressful living room in history, watching what you're watching.
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  Speaker 2: The brain gets bruised that they go into fight or flight,
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  Speaker 2: and this is science, and then that affects the behavior
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  Speaker 2: accordingly afterwards. So they become extremely impetuous and impulsive, and
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  Speaker 2: they run away from home, etc. So this is where
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  Speaker 2: he's come from. Children aren't born bad. You know, I've
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  Speaker 2: got four kids. If one of my four kids was
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  Speaker 2: putting his shoes at the age of two, he'd be him.
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  Speaker 2: That's the actual explanation. We know that. So what happens
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  Speaker 2: to him in the NT in twenty twenty two after
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  Speaker 2: a royal commission after four corners, he gets put into
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  Speaker 2: Bara My Prison, and his experience in Bearing My Prison
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  Speaker 2: I have to highlight it goes like this. He's kept
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  Speaker 2: in there for just over three months. Bear in My
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  Speaker 2: Prison is a derelict adult jail have been bulldozed in
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  Speaker 2: twenty twelve. Not only is he in a derelict, dysfunctional prison,
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  Speaker 2: but he's kept in what was B Block, the maximum
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  Speaker 2: security section where Andy Albury sat, where Martin Leech sat,
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  Speaker 2: where Bradley Murdock sat. He's placed in a cell which
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  Speaker 2: could very well have been occupied by somebody like that.
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  Speaker 2: The cell is three by two meters. It's got nothing
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  Speaker 2: in it except a toilet in a shower which he
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  Speaker 2: tells me was leaking. He's got a broken television which
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  Speaker 2: doesn't work in this eleven year old we keep him,
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  Speaker 2: you and me in the government. We keep him in
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  Speaker 2: that cell for twenty hours a day, in isolation for
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  Speaker 2: seven days in a row.
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  Speaker 3: What is the options?
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  Speaker 2: John, Please please don't ask that question. Please think about
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  Speaker 2: what I've just described. Think about what's going through that child.
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  Speaker 2: That's a damaged child that's placed in a cell like that.
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  Speaker 2: What's going to happen to each damage? It's going to
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  Speaker 2: get worse? Clearly, So that's what we're doing now. That's
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  Speaker 2: why at the point of being arrested, because that's just
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  Speaker 2: a no goal. I can't tolerate that. I live in
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  Speaker 2: this town and I will not countenance that barbarism, that backwardism.
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  Speaker 2: That's worse than what it was ten years ago. That's
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  Speaker 2: worse than don Dale, that's worse than twenty years ago.
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  Speaker 2: We are deteriorating and somebody needs to put the fruit
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  Speaker 2: in the door and see enough is enough.
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  Speaker 1: So, John, that's obviously what you were trying to do yesterday.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you were trying to Christmas. You have been
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  Speaker 1: doing it for quite some time, been very vocal on that.
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  Speaker 1: But so where do we go from here? Because the
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  Speaker 1: minister has basically said, you know that it would be
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  Speaker 1: a waste of time and money. Essentially to you know,
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  Speaker 1: to go backwards and to you know, to to be
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  Speaker 1: taking those kids sent out to the Howard Springs quarantine
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  Speaker 1: facility for example, which I know is something that John
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  Speaker 1: Patterson had raised. So where do we go from here?
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  Speaker 1: Because there's an expectation from the community that if needs
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  Speaker 1: break the law and if they are terrorizing other law
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  Speaker 1: a boding citizens, that there is well punishment. But people
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  Speaker 1: also expect them to be rehabilitated.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's not going to happen at the moment.
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  Speaker 2: So we need a rehabilitative center. But please, can I
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  Speaker 2: just implore or submit to the community to acknowledge that
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  Speaker 2: what I am describing and what we are doing as
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  Speaker 2: a community is all wrong and shouldn't be continued, and
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  Speaker 2: it should end now because look at the self harm
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  Speaker 2: that's been happening in there. It's going through the roof,
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  Speaker 2: it really is. In the last six months rather June
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  Speaker 2: to July this year, ninety three incidents of self harm
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  Speaker 2: and attempted suicide. Four kids put in a hospital with
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  Speaker 2: self harm, one stabbing himself. You know what's going to happen.
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  Speaker 2: We all know what's going to happen. It's the Australian thing,
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  Speaker 2: aboriginal death and custody, and it's going to be a
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  Speaker 2: kid and then we're all going to go off our
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  Speaker 2: head and you know, so we have to stop this.
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  Speaker 2: That's what I just want the community to consider if
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  Speaker 2: they want to live in a village that does this
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  Speaker 2: to kids. Right now, alternatives fair enough don Dalely original
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  Speaker 2: built in the nineties, purpose built facility sitting empty as
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  Speaker 2: we speak, five hundred meters down the road from Behmah
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  Speaker 2: that could have been revamped in about three months. It
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  Speaker 2: has twenty four rooms. Twenty four rooms, that's at least half,
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  Speaker 2: if not three quarters, of what they need. Rooms, classrooms, gymnasiums,
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  Speaker 2: a purpose built facility. We need fully trained, best qualified,
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  Speaker 2: gold standard youth workers that can build and develop relationships
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  Speaker 2: so that this kid can reform. We know the jurisprudence
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  Speaker 2: tells us that if anybody can be rehabilitated, it's children.
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  Speaker 2: Forget adults. It's almost mission impossible with a lot of them.
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  Speaker 2: But with kids that green Wood and they can be.
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  Speaker 2: They want to be rehabilitated. They want protection, they want security,
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  Speaker 2: they want love. They're coming from Guadalcanal, you know, that's
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: the reality. That's what can be done. What should be
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: now and why we're saying it should be shut down
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  Speaker 2: tomorrow is it's just morally reprehensible and we can't continue this.
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  Speaker 3: John.
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  Speaker 1: It doesn't sound as though the Minister is going to
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  Speaker 1: change churchuon though, in terms of shutting it down.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe.
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  Speaker 3: So what can happen here?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: The federal government can legislate. It can pass a law
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  Speaker 2: in the Federal Parliament pursuing to Section one two to
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: the Austroaman Constitution, which gives it legislative power over a territory.
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  Speaker 3: So you want the federal government to step in, definitely.
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  Speaker 2: I want the Ukrainian government to step in and stop
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  Speaker 2: what's happening in my village. That's how imporant it is.
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  Speaker 2: So the federal government can pass a law, a bill
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: will be ten clauses. It doesn't have to be the
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  Speaker 2: federal government. It could be the Greens. It could be
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: a private member's bill which says, as of now, detaining
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  Speaker 2: kids in don Dale is unlawful, end of story. Watch them,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: watch them make do watch them make it happen, and
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: that can happen. I'm campaigning for that right now. I'm
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: writing to the Prime Minister. We're rating to the Prime Minister.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: We're writing to other federal members and we're going to
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: keep going on it.
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  Speaker 1: And John, what do you say to you know, to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: the people listening this morning who are going to be
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: really frustrated, they're actually you know, they're probably going to
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: be angry thinking to themselves. You know, I get John
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  Speaker 1: off the radio. What he's saying is, you know, he's garbage.
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  Speaker 1: There's kids that are broken into my home last week,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: you know, and ransacked my home. I spoke to a bloke,
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  Speaker 1: Chris out In driver who was in that very situation.
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  Speaker 3: You know, what do you say to them?
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  Speaker 2: Well, Luke, you know obviously, I mean I don't like this.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to sound like a complete tosser because
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: you know, I've been in the criminal system for thirty years.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I actually do understand the levels of frustration and anger.
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  Speaker 2: And I mean, we've all been broken in there. We've
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: all had a castle enough, had it several times, and
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: I know how it feels. It feels crap and you
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: get angry. But can I just suggest this the reason
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: this is going on now is because of the failures
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: of the system up to this point, which includes what
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: we're doing right now. This is a harvest we are
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: reaping through our neglect. Don Dale four Corners happened seven
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: years ago, six years ago. Isn't it unbelievable that the
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: whole nation can go nuts over what we're doing in
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: juvenile justice space. We have a Royal commission that confirms it.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: In more internationally, people are going on about this place,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: and then six seven years later we're in exactly the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: same position. How insane is that that could have been
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: fixed up seven years ago if they followed the recommendations
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: and started trying rehab, etc. So the people that are
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: breaking into houses now are in many respects a direct
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: consequence of our failure and our neglect to drial with
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: this properly.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: So what do we have to do? Just be patient?
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Well, patients? Patients is a virtue. Patience is a virtue.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's really hard though, you know, stificing those issues
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: where they're just thinking to themselves, God.
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  Speaker 3: What do we do? You know, how do we deal
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: with this?
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  Speaker 1: Well?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: How about using our intelligence? How about using patients? How
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: about even using a bit of compassion and understanding as
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: to where these kids are from? Because all the youth
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: justice judges say, look, kids aren't bad these kids are
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: doing bad things, but they're not actually bad. There's an
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: explanation for it. Let's try and think like that despite
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: the frustration and the anger, because if we vent our
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: spleen and we go the way the government have been
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: doing for years to acknowledge that and get our votes,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: then we're just getting the same cycle. We're just getting
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: the same breakings, car thiefs, assaults. We need to change it,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: we need to transform it fundamentally. And I know it's
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: difficult persuading a lot and probably the majority of the people,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: but I don't care. I really don't care, because how
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: did you get the vote? Suffragettes? They were a tiny minority,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: but what they did they knew was the right thing,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: and they eventually won. Oh most women didn't even agree
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: with the Suffragettes. How did Gandhi get the British out
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: of India? He was in a minority, doctor Martin Luther King.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Progress is always achieved by people in a minority, initially
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: who push the envelope out, and that's what we're trying
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: to do here, trying to wake up Australia to its morals,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: its ethics, its decencies.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: John.
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  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we are going to have to leave it there.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: We will catch up with you again soon. We are
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: hoping to organize a bit of a panel discussion over
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: the coming weeks.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your time this John Lawrence.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Good lak for the rest of the day.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: Thank you