Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / 173: Increase your close rate by working with mobilizers and innovators (and who these people are!)

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173: Increase your close rate by working with mobilizers and innovators (and who these people are!) · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sales Bluebird podcast where we help cybersecurity companies grow sales faster.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're a seller, marketer, leader, or founder, we give you tips, tricks, experiences, examples, ideas, and inspiration from people who know a thing or 10 about building great cybersecurity companies.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Andrew Monahan, and today we're talking about mobilizers and innovators.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when we work with our prospects in the mid-market or the enterprise, there are lots of reasons for them not to buy from a startup.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about a company usually that's pretty much unknown, with a technology that's unproven, with gaps in functionality and probably issues with stability, and real valid questions whether the startup, the company will be around for a long period of time.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think inside any given organization, there are going to be people in that organization who want to at least question why the heck are we doing any business with these people?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Does it make any sense?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, their startup, things like that, right?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's going to be people who are doubters about whether it's worthwhile doing it.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe even the people that we're dealing with who kind of want to work with us have those unsaid questions, right?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: They've got those doubts and those concerns in their mind.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: But we do know that people do buy from startups, right?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Companies do, people do.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when they do, there are commonly two personas that are working with us at the company that is buying our software.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Whether we know it or not, there are two personas that are working with us.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they might be the same person.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So two personas and one person, or they might be two different people, or maybe even there's three of them or four of them that have these roles to play.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it's important we understand who these people are and what they do for us.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So let's pull up a chair and let's talk about these people.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is the idea of the mobilizer.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is the person who can get a deal done.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the naming of this person actually came from the corporate executive board way back.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: They were doing some research past the uh the challenger sale into the challenger customer, and they were looking at different types of persona inside customers.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what they found was getting one person inside a company to like what you do, agree on the future, agree on a vision, to have that person then be able to translate that into a purchase is actually very difficult because, as we know these days, it's not often that people are buying on their own.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're usually buying with input and collaboration and support from other people at the organization.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And getting that support is incredibly tough, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: You have to go from one person being on board to multiple people being on board to buy it at this time for these purposes.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not easy to do.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Add in the fact that you're asking them to come all on board with the same idea, and you're a startup that's unproven with or the product with gaps and things like that, very, very difficult to do.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the mobilizer is an important person because they're getting they get the deal done.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones that get the deal done internally.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, don't confuse this person with a champion.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: The champion's important, but they're not necessarily the same thing.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think the difference is that the champion is on your side, right?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're going with the thinking.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: They want to get the thing done.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: They want to try and sell internally with you.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas what mobilizer can do or is, is someone who drives a wider thinking inside the organization, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Gets people on board with a wider shift in what they should be doing.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones that leads the thinking in general, not just the need to buy this product from this vendor, from this startup.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they're able to drive a change in approach all around.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they have that higher level ability than a champion will do.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now, they may be the same person, but you know, you gotta be careful, right?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Does this person truly have that ability to bring lots of people on board?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Some people want to be champions, right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: But can they actually go and do that?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the mobilizer is.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what was interesting with the work that was done by the corporate executive board at the time was that they identified three types of mobilizer: the go-getter, the teacher, and the skeptic.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: So let's quickly just identify who these people are so you get a feel for what they're about.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the go-getter is the type of person that would say to you, show us the business value, and I or we'll go get it done.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And this person is relentless.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: They just go move forward.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're perhaps less visionary, but they are all about just going, you know, forward, a relentless forward motion to drive things forward internally inside the organization.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: The next one is the teacher.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is the person that says, I love this idea.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not so interested in the details.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just love the concept.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I want to go and take this concept and change minds internally.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that person tends to be persuasive.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're seen as a good advisor, right?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're they advise people internally.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're the one that people sort of turn to and say, let's get some advice from Jim in the corner, right?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they're the ones that kind of get that treated like that by their peers.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, though, they can be viewed as ungrounded, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're just teachers, a little bit ungrounded, perhaps in the business realities, but they're excited about something.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: They want to go and evangelize and talk to people and bring them into the mission, bring them into the movement that they're trying to create internally.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the third type of mobilizer is the skeptic.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know how to get things done internally, but you've got a lot to prove.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: You've got a long way to go.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this person can be tough to deal with.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: They might seem at first to be uh very negative, but what they're doing really is working through in their mind, you know, is this stuff real?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Can this really work for us?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are the holes?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: So they understand what the holes are as opposed to understand to then knock it down, right?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're really, you know, trying to work it through in their mind.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have them on board with you, then they're very powerful because people internally know that if that guy or that girl likes this, holy shit, they must have passed this whole series of tests because they are very skeptical, right?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're hard to please, they're hard to get on board.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: If Jim or Betty is on board, well, we should pay attention because we know that's not easy.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they're good to prep with because they understand the details, they understand where the minefields are, they prepare others in their organization for change.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So these are the people that can go out and take our deal, our idea, the thing that we want to help our prospect change and really get things done.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones that are going to cross that wide chasm between one person being excited and multiple people being excited.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you think about some of these people, right?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you're working perhaps quite senior.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, the mobilizer is not attached to seniority.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the the CISO or you know, someone with a big title insecurity is one of these people.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're not.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I remember one time working with a financial organization, and uh, the person that ended up being the mobilizer was the I I kind of viewed him as like the mad scientist in the corner, right?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: He couldn't sit down, he was always kind of in constant movement.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: He would shout the questions at, how do you do this?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And how'd you do that?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was very harsh, right?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was like settle down a little bit, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was kind of in your face.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: But when he got on board, he would then, you know, I remember this person, the magic moment with this person was when he started selling it back to us.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: What you're creating is something amazing because it does this and this, and that's gonna transform this and all the rest of it, right?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And his his harsh questioning and way of dealing with us was just his way of truly understanding it, so that when he was on board, he was like, Yes, I see the light, I see a goodness quirk.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he was the hard, he was actually a skeptic in that uh in that deal right there.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that we have to do with these people is to figure out if they're truly a mobilizer is give them tests, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Give them tasks to go and do.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So can they, for example, bring in an additional group, which might not be aligned, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: If they're in security and then the mad scientist or the skeptic or the teacher, can they go to networking and bring over the chief network architect to have a meeting with us?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can they involve a senior leader earlier in the process?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like when you know you almost feel like if you're working in the middle of the organization, you're kept to arm's length, right?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we'll get to the CISO, we'll get to the SVP, whatever.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, don't worry, right?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, you know, saying to the mobilizer, let's get that leader in early because it's gonna solidify all our thinking, they can go and get that person, right?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Drag them into, say, you know, you got to meet with these people, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: They have the gravitas, the power, the the whatever it is internally to go get that person and say, I need you to come and meet these people, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, another test might be can this, if you're gonna do a POV, can this person expand the scope of the POV and bring more people or more use cases or or things like that into the POC?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're the people that can help us think through business impact, go find someone perhaps in the finance org that's attached to IT or attached to security, bring that person in to help build the business justification earlier in the process as opposed to later.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there's lots of tests to give these these mobilizers, but think about the mobilizer is gonna help us get the deal done, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Once we got someone on board, they're gonna be the ones that say, okay, here's how we're gonna do this.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: We need to get them involved and they've got the ability to go get this all done.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the mobilizer that I talked about at the start.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: The second person I talked about was the innovator.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And these may or may not be the same people.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Often they're not.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: But we need to make sure the person, the people that we're working with, and the company, frankly, that we're working with is an innovator, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: They do want to work with early stage startups.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Going into a first meeting, I think we've all done this, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Go into a first meeting and someone goes, Oh, this is amazing, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you guys are changing the world, or if they want to tell us that we're doing, great, but not that great, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because we don't know if that company has any ability to work with an early stage company, an early stage startup.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just not in their DNA.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they've got some rules in procurement.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's one of these companies where procurement rules, rules the roost, and they got some rules and regulations that we don't do things with startups, right?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the people that you're talking to just don't have the wherewithal to work with a startup.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have the experience of doing it.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have the political capital or the clout internally to work with startups, right?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're going to have naysayers who say you're stupid, you're dumb for working with a company that size.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And they've gonna want to see the light, see the big outcome they can get and want to work with them.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: How do you do this?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how do you know whether the person that you're working with is an innovator?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let me give you a quick flow.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, imagine you're in a in a first meeting, or any meeting, but hopefully earlier on in the sales process rather than later, right?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is something you need to know early.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you do the usual call, you do some discovery, you paint the vision then.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what we're trying to build, here's what we're building, here's what we have, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: You have to go big though, right?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: You don't do here's what we have right now and talk just about that.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about, well, here's why we see things.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Our philosophy is that there's a whole shift in the market going on, and organizations should have the capability to do this, this, and this, and that's what we're building, right?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's some bigger vision that you're painting about the future.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll know at that point whether the person gets it or not.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if they get it, then we need to keep going.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't get it, they can't see past the end of their nose, maybe they're not even close to being the visionary that we need.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but let's say that person just latches on and goes, yes, you know, I get it.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what you're doing is right, it's important, it's something that we need to have, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing to do is to start asking questions to see if they are they are innovators.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that I'd encourage you to do it is to start with the company and then go down to the individual.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, the conversation might go something like this, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Bob, you know, I see you're I see you're excited about what we're doing and you've got some alignment.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I really feel like you and I are aligned on what's important that needs to be done to fix these problems over the next years, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it might be, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I I know also that we are not for everyone.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're an earlier stage company.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is not for everyone.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, Bob, how does your company view working with a company like ours?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's the key question.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: How does your company, you might say their company name, you know, how does Pepsi, how does Apple, how does Fidelity, right, view working with a company like ours?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then shut up, right?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ask any more, don't say anything more at that point.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just see what comes back, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point, it's actually a a really good question.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I've really ever had someone be in any way reluctant to answer that, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or don't feel like they're giving something away, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, how do how does your company view working with a company like ours?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had people at that point say, honestly, we never do it, right?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you're well, thank God I know now, and not in two months after a POV and all the rest of it, right?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm glad I asked, right?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And some people will say, no, we we do it, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And when someone says we do it, then obviously you won't have examples.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the next question is when was the last time your team, the company, whatever it might be, worked with a startup like us?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're looking for examples, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Looking for timings.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And how did that go, right?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Where was the resistance internally?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you're testing for things like that, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got the, yeah, they say that they buy from companies, but let me just trust but verify and look for examples.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say at the end of that process, you you know, it sounds like they they do actually do it.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like it sounds like they've done it, I don't know, two or three times in the last year.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's examples there, I understand, things like that, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next question to ask is his name is Bob, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: What about you, Bob?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: What is your appetite for working with a company like ours?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not asking him about his abilities and can he do it, can he not, or things like that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the key question here is appetite.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: The key word is appetite, because it is not for everyone, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not everyone likes to do it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you you ask them, what's your appetite for working with a company like ours?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then, same deal, right?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some people will say, never done it before.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Don't actually like doing it.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not in a great spot.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just joined the company, or you know what, I'm going for a promotion and uh I don't want to take the risk on.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: You'll be surprised actually in this conversation what people can reveal to you, honestly.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so some people will say no, some people say yes, actually do it.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an important part of our development as a team to have earlier stage technology, not just the established stuff.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then same again, right?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: If the examples and all the rest that you talked about at the company level weren't to do with this person, ask them examples.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: What have you worked on?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: What are you part of where you brought earlier stage companies in?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then the the next question there is if if they say they they're an innovator and they've got examples, I think a really interesting question is, you know, I'm curious, what do you want to get when you partner with earlier stage companies?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Don't give them examples, right?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is it you want to get this or is you want to get that?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just say no.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like you've done this quite a bit.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to get when you partner with an earlier stage company and see what comes back, right?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And again, they'll usually bring the newer ideas to market and we got some gaps that need to be filled and you know, logical things like that.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes what you realize is they want the kudos, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: They want the excitement.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: They want to be able to say to their friends in the industry, I was one of the first companies to work with that company, right?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine you're one of the first CISOs or head of endpoint security of the company to ever work with CrowdStrike, for example, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the kudos you get from that.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all throughout your career, you hunt for jobs.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was the eighth customer at uh at CrowdStrike.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I recognized early on how amazing what they had was and how groundbreaking, how needed, and we we brought them in.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was rough, but it worked.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, imagine being able to tell that story.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Some people like that, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Some people want to be able to do that.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: They have an ego that you want to uh attach to.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then another question uh to ask at this stage is is the one about the other blockers that are going to come up against.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've done this before, Bob.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious, you know, when someone does question you, why the heck are you working with a startup?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do you respond to that?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or how will you respond if we go down this road together?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So look to see if they go, oh, don't worry.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I get that all the time.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, here's what I tell them, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you want to feel like someone who you're working with someone who uh does actually do this all the time, as opposed to saying, I don't know, you know, uh, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: That would make me feel uneasy a little bit, right?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: If someone says, yeah, don't worry, yeah, I got people ask me that all the time, but here's how we deal with it, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then you'll be in a better spot.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the two types of people that you want to be working with, the mobilizers and the innovators.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the same, sometimes not the same, but important to have.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And important, I think, to identify earlier on in the sales cycle whether you have both these people or both these personas in one person.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: The tasks for the innovator, I think, are super important because you don't want to get down the path and find out that this person is scared to do business with you because they don't have whatever it takes internally to work with a startup, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or you're battling 30 years of inertia inside that company, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: To have never worked with startups.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes what you find is that Bob actually is an innovator, but the company that they're working for just doesn't do it.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'll tell you a quick story, I've I've actually sat in meetings with uh guy called Mike Rogers, and and Mike will actually ask them, gosh, that must be tough when you're trying to be that innovator.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the whole company is holding holding you back, right?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: He'll ask a question like that, and suddenly they start revealing, yeah, I don't know how long I'll be here.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting a little bit frustrated by it.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like my talent might be used elsewhere.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure I made the decision or I'm getting fed up with it.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing what they'll reveal at that point about their about their status in the company and how they're viewing their career and things like that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, back to my original point.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, mobilizers and innovators, understanding early on who these people are, figuring out how you test for it so that you know what you have and don't have, and then you can plan accordingly, either to fill the gaps or to figure out whether you should really just walk away from the deal.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that, uh, thanks so much for tuning in today.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Look forward to talking to you next time.