Latest / Chat CFO / How I took a $25M brand through an impossible IPO with Mark Buckley

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How I took a $25M brand through an impossible IPO with Mark Buckley · Chat CFO

• 0:00
  Today I caught up with Mark Buckley, former CEO of Perfect Moment, and he told us what it's like to go through a US IPO.
• 0:08
  After exhausting our efforts in pretty much the whole of 2023 of alternative investment rounds, we proceeded with a US IPO on a business that was doing 25 billion in revenue.
• 0:20
  Against all the odds, we managed to get listed on the New York Stock Exchange in February 24.
• 0:26
  We also talked about transitioning from a corporate career into a private equity backed SME environment.
• 0:33
  And it's a two way street when you interview, right?
• 0:34
  You've got to be clear that they know your shortcomings and they in this case was the chairman and the founder.
• 0:40
  The chairman's private equity experienced and would ask you that question.
• 0:44
  What do you think are going to be your, you know, what are your biggest challenges going into this?
• 0:47
  And I've never looked at cash and I looked at tax in my life.
• 0:50
  So, because I've never had to do that, so I'm going to overindex there to get it back.
• 0:53
  And finally, we discussed taking a moment to pause, reflect and really understand what he wants to do next in his career.
• 1:01
  You can listen to this on all major podcast platforms and watch it on YouTube.
• 1:06
  I hope you enjoy the episode.
• 1:15
  Thanks for coming in.
• 1:16
  uh Extremely short notice.
• 1:19
  We had a brief conversation yesterday afternoon and unfortunately, a last minute drop out due to Covid, which I think is back on the rounds again, sort of with everyone going back to school.
• 1:32
  So really appreciate you coming in um with no preparation at all.
• 1:36
  So as a starting point, can you just tell us who you are and a about yourself, please?
• 1:41
  Yeah, well, thanks for having me.
• 1:43
  Born ready, should we say?
• 1:45
  Yes.
• 1:45
  So it's nice that we caught up last week.
• 1:47
  So it was very, very serendipitous.
• 1:50
  Yeah, about me, I'm born and bred in London.
• 1:53
  So I'm quite rare when you work in London, especially with the amazing international set you get here.
• 1:59
  You don't meet many of us, but there's a few of us around.
• 2:03
  I didn't grow up wanting to be, well, I didn't really know what I wanted to be.
• 2:08
  I never had this massive grand plan.
• 2:10
  Yeah, I seem to have made it.
• 2:11
  pretty far into my career towards the top of the ladder.
• 2:15
  And I knew, I think it was actually at school when they make you fill in, AI would laugh at this now, right?
• 2:21
  They make you fill in a career survey back in the 90s around what you should be.
• 2:25
  And out of it popped arable farmer or certified chartered accountant or something.
• 2:32
  And I didn't know all that.
• 2:32
  Why?
• 2:33
  didn't know.
• 2:33
  I know what a farmer melts having never set foot on one.
• 2:36
  So I kind of researched that a bit more.
• 2:37
  was like, I'm going to be an accountant.
• 2:39
  And I liked numbers.
• 2:40
  I liked, you know, understanding figures and how things worked in a kind of mechanical way.
• 2:46
  And then, yeah, persevered that way and started working in retail, doing my A levels.
• 2:51
  The company may have heard of Marks & Spencer.
• 2:53
  So I started literally selling suits on the sales floor in Marble Arch and did that alongside A levels.
• 2:59
  Preferred working to studying, to be honest.
• 3:02
  So I bypassed university, started studying ACCA and then eventually moved into the wonderful offices in Baker Street.
• 3:09
  And that was the start of my kind of corporate career, which I stuck with at &S for probably, I think it's 11 years, through various different roles, lost count of the number of CEOs, CFOs, amazing managers, some not so good managers, and kind of just grew through the business.
• 3:26
  Had a spell in South Africa, in Cape Town, and I was late 20s at that point.
• 3:31
  It's a sliding doors moment.
• 3:33
  Could have had, I think, an amazingly different life there, but wanted to come home at the end of an assignment.
• 3:40
  I worked for a company called War of South Africa in Cape Town, which kind of a sister company of &S.
• 3:46
  So still a listed company, food, clothing, home, financial services, working with some brilliant people, worked hard, played hard, met my now wife there.
• 3:56
  So she's back in the UK.
• 3:58
  And yeah, when I came back to &S, I worked again with some great people, worked in foods, worked in international.
• 4:06
  but was getting a bit disillusioned of where the company was going.
• 4:09
  And then I went to Burberry and Burberry clearly still British, proud to be British, not many people are.
• 4:16
  And the international side of Burberry was on a different level to how &S was.
• 4:22
  It was truly international, truly global and was under the helm of Angela Arendt at the time, which was just a force to be reckoned with.
• 4:29
  uh And the optimism in that company, it was a British luxury brand, which there weren't many of them.
• 4:36
  And it introduced the word digital to luxury, which no one had done before.
• 4:40
  And it was laughed at.
• 4:41
  Yet we grew that business amazingly.
• 4:44
  I was still fairly kind of middle management at that point and progressed my way through.
• 4:50
  we had a whale of a time.
• 4:51
  Maybe it was hard, hard, hard, hard work.
• 4:53
  I did five years there and worked my way into a senior corporate role, very far from the sales floor and the customer.
• 5:03
  And I was a bit disheartened with that in the end.
• 5:05
  great team working with IR, working with the CFO, but I was like, what do I do?
• 5:10
  I can't just do spreadsheets and PowerPoints all day long.
• 5:13
  A new CEO is coming in, so insert one of the big four.
• 5:16
  Consulting firms coming in to work alongside us.
• 5:18
  was like, I don't think I'm ready for this.
• 5:20
  And a brilliant uh old manager of mine, still a great mentor and friend today, remembered a conversation him and I had had.
• 5:30
  I don't remember having it, but he remembered it.
• 5:32
  One day wanted to be in an SME and I wanted to work within private equity, which are words I didn't even know probably a decade before.
• 5:38
  I know what a small medium enterprise was, didn't know what private equity was.
• 5:42
  But I liked the idea of being more hands-on, a bigger fish in a smaller pond.
• 5:46
  And he was going into a company called Raffa, which I had heard of, through Cape Town.
• 5:50
  I loved cycling.
• 5:52
  And in London, I hated cycling.
• 5:54
  And they had developed this amazing product, but probably more importantly, a brilliant community.
• 6:00
  And I'd never worked with a founder.
• 6:02
  And he was going in as a CFO and he needed number two.
• 6:05
  So I interviewed with his, the former CFO, got the gig and never looked back.
• 6:10
  So that was my first time in a smaller enterprise, much more hands on and doing things I'd never had to do before.
• 6:19
  I'd never looked at tax, never looked at treasury.
• 6:21
  But we had a table probably slightly bigger than this one where all the decision makers around it, little bureaucracy, purpose driven, mission led, the founder in the business.
• 6:32
  who was passionate about the mission, which was to make cycling the most popular sport in the world.
• 6:36
  I can still remember it.
• 6:37
  I can't remember &S's, can't remember Berberies.
• 6:40
  And that was a phenomenal six years.
• 6:42
  I got to enjoy maybe the wrong choice of word, a transaction or two in there, some tough banking relationships where we had to refinance the business, but had fun along the way, understanding the mission, the customer, the phenomenal teams, seeing them grow and develop.
• 6:59
  By the time I left Rafa, including a COVID pandemic response, I had pretty much looked after every team with the exception of the creative team, so marketing and design effectively.
• 7:11
  I looked after tech, I looked after customer service, operations, and I picked up the role of Chief People Officer when I was there.
• 7:19
  So C3PO as I used call myself, so people, planet, and profit, and then parcels got added on.
• 7:26
  A lot of things in my life had kind of stitched together from my experience.
• 7:29
  So lots of corporate development at M &S, sorry, personal development at M &S and at Burberry.
• 7:35
  And I was able to bring that back into my teams in a more structured way.
• 7:38
  And then into the kind of executive teams at RAFA, which was like 500 people in the total organization.
• 7:45
  At the top 30, I was able to put programs together for.
• 7:49
  So when I left RAFA, I was like, what next?
• 7:52
  This was three years ago.
• 7:54
  What next?
• 7:55
  And I'd actually said I'd had it with consumer.
• 7:57
  I've been in consumer pretty much my whole life.
• 8:00
  I was pigeonholed.
• 8:01
  I was this kind of CFO plus.
• 8:02
  What do I do next?
• 8:04
  I'd had a good coach at Rafa in my last couple of years.
• 8:08
  So she drew a lot of my inner motivations out.
• 8:12
  And I was like, maybe I should try something new.
• 8:15
  And I looked at SaaS companies and tech companies who loved my experience.
• 8:19
  But when push comes to shove, they go with what they know.
• 8:22
  They go with someone in that sector.
• 8:23
  We probably spoke at that time.
• 8:25
  And but I did say I would answer the phone to every recruiter that calls and at least have the first conversation.
• 8:31
  So when a luxury stroke premium sports apparel brand phones, you go, oh, I said I wasn't going to do this, but I'll answer the phone.
• 8:39
  And a company called Perfect Moment that I hadn't heard of were approaching me or a headhunter was approaching me to go in as the CFO.
• 8:46
  It was the smallest business I'd ever looked at to date because it was like 30 employees.
• 8:50
  And I think it was about 15 to 16 million revenue.
• 8:54
  but had a very unique product in a congested marketplace.
• 8:59
  But you could see their point of difference.
• 9:02
  Loss making, uh had to change in team, and they wanted me to go in the CFO with a CEO alongside me.
• 9:11
  It looked like the chapter at Raffer I'd missed, like the earlier stages, shall we say.
• 9:18
  So was like, actually, maybe I do this.
• 9:20
  At least I'll know how the business works and understand how it's going to drive.
• 9:25
  On the day I was joining, or about a week before I joined, the incumbent CEO pulled out.
• 9:29
  So there was a bit of an opportunistic moment for me to do both roles for a period, which ended up being the whole time.
• 9:36
  And I was there for close to three years.
• 9:38
  And that business, it needed a transformation.
• 9:43
  And again, through the experience I'd gained from my entire career, but especially at Rafa, I was able to see how we pull a strategy together, a team together, have the right resources to deliver it.
• 9:53
  really understand the unit economics of the business.
• 9:56
  Nowhere to say no versus where to say yes.
• 9:59
  One of the biggest Achilles heels that I had there versus some others was it didn't have the funding.
• 10:06
  So a huge amount of my time was working with the chairman to go out and fundraise.
• 10:12
  So whether that was through private equity or high net worths.
• 10:17
  But in the kind of or should we say the filing cabinet at the very bottom drawer, there was a US listing opportunity because we had some debt on the balance sheet that we could convert.
• 10:28
  So I didn't sign up for this and I think I'm still grateful in hindsight for the opportunity.
• 10:34
  After exhausting our efforts in pretty much the whole of 2023 of alternative investment rounds, we proceeded with a US IPO on a business that was doing 25 million in revenue.
• 10:47
  10 odd million of debt stacked against it, cumulative losses, a team of 30.
• 10:51
  Now with the plan, now with a way of getting actually to profit and to grow the business.
• 10:56
  The brand was very recognized in the luxury ski world and the kind of fashion world.
• 11:00
  And now we're making it more relevant to investors.
• 11:03
  And against all the odds, we managed to get listed on the New York Stock Exchange in February 24.
• 11:09
  And then we're like, right, that was a lot of work.
• 11:11
  Now we better deliver the plan.
• 11:14
  And that's what we try to do for the next year or so.
• 11:17
  But all kind of good things come to an end in almost a year later.
• 11:22
  Yeah, I'm in a in a different environment now where I'm I've taken time out from that because it was it was a grueling process, right?
• 11:30
  Going through fundraising while transforming a business.
• 11:33
  I've come out the other side and I've taken a bit of what's been de-prioritized in my life or me, my health and my family and I have young daughter.
• 11:44
  So am I showing up?
• 11:45
  Am I showing up as well for them as I am when I am in business and for shareholders?
• 11:50
  And I definitely got the balance wrong.
• 11:52
  So I'm now trying to adjust that balance.
• 11:54
  I spent a lot of time in the last few months working on me, myself.
• 11:59
  I'm looking at the sign behind you.
• 12:02
  I uncovered the writings of Marcus Aurelius probably far too late in my life, but that's been a good guide and stoicism.
• 12:10
  But I've also...
• 12:11
  trying to back myself.
• 12:12
  I know how to do my job when I'm working in a business full time.
• 12:16
  How do I create that in the next phase?
• 12:18
  So whether that's through advisory consulting, which I've been loving doing over the over the last few months.
• 12:23
  And there's been some interesting opportunities that have come out from a full time point of view, whether it's CFO or CEO or anywhere in between.
• 12:31
  So that's not me in a nutshell.
• 12:33
  That's kind of my background from not knowing what to do to making my way to what's supposedly the top.
• 12:38
  and now having a bit of a rethink about what the next chapter is.
• 12:42
  message from me today.
• 12:44
  Stoics is a specialist CFO and finance leadership search partner.
• 12:48
  We've supported organizations across the UK, Europe and North America with identifying and hiring top senior finance talent.
• 12:57
  If you have a gap in your organization or exploring a hire over the coming months, please do get in touch on the email address below.
• 13:04
  have you, so this sort of period of reflection, inflection.
• 13:09
  um What else have you kind of learned having been able to stand still for a minute and reflect?
• 13:19
  I've learned lots and we probably need 15 hours.
• 13:22
  I'll try and keep it brief.
• 13:25
  I've learned that I've never really taken time to pause.
• 13:32
  I'm a very quick thinker, which often therefore gives the illusion you haven't thought.
• 13:40
  It just processes very quickly for me.
• 13:44
  And I've evaluated everything and then that's the way.
• 13:46
  And I've been told a few times to just slow it down and take people on the journey.
• 13:49
  So I've taken that on board.
• 13:51
  I've never done it for myself.
• 13:53
  So I do that in practice with others.
• 13:55
  And if I was mentoring you or guiding you...
• 13:58
  I'd like to think you'd take on the wisdom.
• 14:00
  You may not.
• 14:00
  It's up to you.
• 14:01
  But I've never done it to myself.
• 14:02
  So I think the slowing down, be comfortable, not doing something, even though you're doing it, is a big thing.
• 14:10
  Patience, you know, and faith, I think, have come out a lot.
• 14:14
  But one of the biggest things is actually tapping to feelings.
• 14:18
  And you're probably not expecting this on the CFO podcast.
• 14:21
  It's tapped really into what that feeling is.
• 14:22
  I've been so driven by my intellect and it's served me well.
• 14:27
  but I've suppressed the other feeling.
• 14:29
  it was actually one of the processes I did earlier in the year.
• 14:32
  If you suppress the feelings, you can't experience the extremes of feelings.
• 14:38
  So I wasn't experiencing joy because I was suppressing the extreme opposite, I, sadness.
• 14:44
  So one of my traits, I was complimenting this throughout my career, and I still will be, is you're incredibly calm.
• 14:51
  Nothing ruffles you.
• 14:52
  But that would also be the same in sadness.
• 14:55
  Cool.
• 14:55
  Doesn't ruffle me.
• 14:56
  But then when it's joy, well, I'm not experiencing the joy.
• 14:58
  And that's a bit, I'm going to probably swear, it's bit shit to do that.
• 15:02
  Then you're not a human.
• 15:03
  You're just a human doing, not a human being.
• 15:05
  So that was one of the biggest things.
• 15:07
  Slow down just what's going to really serve you for this next chapter and tap into those feelings.
• 15:13
  If every day we feel a bit sad, feel a bit sad.
• 15:16
  But equally smile, laugh.
• 15:18
  The best thing is have a six year old daughter to do that.
• 15:21
  Tap into your inner child.
• 15:23
  I've been doing that a lot more.
• 15:25
  Brilliant.
• 15:25
  uh Just going back to the career journey.
• 15:29
  well, interesting.
• 15:29
  A couple of things in common.
• 15:30
  We both worked for Marks and Spencer by the sounds early on.
• 15:34
  um Both didn't go to university.
• 15:37
  um On that note, do think that's had much of an impact on your career?
• 15:46
  And it's an interesting one because over the years you see all these role profiles must have a 2.1 from a Redbrick University.
• 15:54
  et cetera, et cetera.
• 15:55
  We obviously went through a period of time as well where was kind of a lot of people were pushed to go to university.
• 16:02
  There were some governments that kind of stressed that.
• 16:06
  And maybe we did end up with some people coming out with degrees that maybe hadn't been that useful for their careers.
• 16:16
  Interest is no not going university.
• 16:18
  It probably does put you in a minority against your peer group, but how that may be impacted or affected your way of thinking in your career.
• 16:26
  I think having that conversation now in 2025 is, if you'd asked me that probably in 2005, I'd have said it does.
• 16:42
  kind of to simplify it.
• 16:45
  You don't really want to be against the grain.
• 16:48
  You most people are sheep, right?
• 16:50
  And they'll just follow this way of doing it.
• 16:53
  And therefore, university, red brick or otherwise, it just gets you into the pile of all we're to proceed with those as graduate programs galore.
• 17:02
  Because of the route I took at M &S back then, I was unorthodox and they didn't know how to handle me.
• 17:08
  So I'll give you, it hindered me early on.
• 17:11
  I don't think it hinders me now as the, because I've now got the experience.
• 17:14
  And I think if I'm going into this profession now, it's more accepted that you could have A levels or B, you know, a school leaver.
• 17:22
  That's more the norm or could be the norm.
• 17:25
  It's not as much of an outlier.
• 17:26
  So when I was at &S, there was a, I think I was 19 when I went into head office and started in the shared services and worked up.
• 17:34
  you know, on the job experience and But I'd already started studying ACCA.
• 17:41
  So I didn't do the NVQ route.
• 17:43
  My A-levels got me onto ACCA just.
• 17:46
  And there was a graduate program and there was a sponsored program where &S would pay your college and your time off, et cetera.
• 17:55
  But I didn't fit into the forms and the convention of it.
• 17:59
  And I didn't really want sponsorship.
• 18:01
  I just would like my holiday to not be used for studying.
• 18:05
  It was like computer says no, because you've got it all or nothing.
• 18:10
  look, you, stoicism, control the controller boards.
• 18:13
  was like, okay, it just sucks.
• 18:15
  I just won't have my holidays will be used, you know, with these textbooks.
• 18:19
  I think one of the biggest hurdles for &S at the time was if you have been to uni and you get your exemptions, you probably study for three years doing ACCA or the other one.
• 18:30
  We don't talk about joking, or SEMA.
• 18:32
  And at the end of that, you'll be ready to be a manager because you'd have had the work experience and the certifications to get there.
• 18:43
  I would have probably been 22 when I'd qualified if I was on the sponsorship program, but then I wouldn't have had the work experience to be the manager.
• 18:51
  I don't care about being the manager.
• 18:52
  I'd like just bit of help in hand here.
• 18:55
  Call it a mini sponsorship or something.
• 18:56
  But anyway, was no, no, no.
• 18:58
  And I think maybe my final three exams were finally sponsored.
• 19:01
  And eventually I became the sponsorship manager.
• 19:02
  So, you know, changed some of the rules and...
• 19:05
  and how it worked to be a bit more open about it.
• 19:07
  So back then it felt like it.
• 19:09
  And I probably never had a huge desire to work in the US at that time.
• 19:13
  I've worked a lot with the US since, which is fascinating actually, like we as Brits kind of forget that there's another massive market a few miles away.
• 19:24
  the...
• 19:27
  When you got an American employer looking at you, they were very much more academia based.
• 19:32
  Like if you haven't got this, even up to, you know, masters or MBA, you're not even going to get on the list.
• 19:36
  was like, okay, well that just rules out those, but there's plenty more.
• 19:40
  So, I don't know, I saw it as a narrow field, but there was still a big enough field to play in.
• 19:44
  But I don't know, you do this for a living.
• 19:48
  So I guess it must have changed over the decades, whether people prejudice against that or don't now.
• 19:56
  I think it's some people now are more open minded that one doesn't have to have gone through a top university route.
• 20:07
  think a lot of the accounting firms did a school leaver program as well and sort of fast-tracked.
• 20:13
  And think that was a great thing to do.
• 20:17
  But you're still running into people in 2025 who are ticking boxes on.
• 20:20
  um where someone went to university where someone trained and you're kind of going well hang on a second that was 20 years ago if not more we're looking at hiring a CFO and I'm not sure that's relevant anymore if I'm honest and yeah people you know people still have biases but um And to be honest, if I hear that as a candidate, he's probably saying enough about the culture and the business.
• 20:58
  That's a no from me, actually.
• 21:01
  And then moving on through your career, I guess one thing that we're often asked about is that transition from big corporate Excellent training ground, maybe seen some great things to SME.
• 21:21
  Especially in recent years, I think a lot of people have wanted to make that transition.
• 21:24
  They wanted post COVID something more purposeful.
• 21:27
  They didn't necessarily want to be the uh number in the big machine and make that transition, which is not easy.
• 21:34
  Because a lot of small companies, again, will say, you're not going to be hands on enough.
• 21:40
  You don't have the small company experience.
• 21:42
  What did you What do you learn about that transition that you think would be useful for people listening that might want to embark on that?
• 21:50
  Yeah, I think it's really hard, isn't it?
• 21:53
  Because you get into that horrible position of someone just has to take the leap of faith in you.
• 21:59
  Because if you had the experience, you'd probably be doing it or you don't like it.
• 22:02
  So you don't want to do it.
• 22:06
  I went in eyes wide open to the things I knew I'd be able to do.
• 22:10
  Assuming the job profiles are pretty well and everyone you've met has been honest.
• 22:15
  The things I knew I'd be pretty good at.
• 22:18
  So let's say the insights into the business, the business partnering, etc.
• 22:24
  I had done some statutory accounts, but you know, for subsidiaries of bigger corps with a very, you know, experienced team behind us.
• 22:33
  So I knew that was going to be probably an area of development.
• 22:35
  And then some areas I'd never looked after tax, treasury, et cetera.
• 22:39
  And I backed myself in terms of how to show up and roll up sleeves and grit and stamina and all that.
• 22:45
  So I wasn't worried about that.
• 22:47
  And I remember meets, and it's a two way street when you interview, right?
• 22:52
  You've got to be clear that they know your shortcomings and they in this case was the chairman and the founder and the chairman's private equity experienced and would ask you that question.
• 23:03
  What do you think are going to be your They probably wouldn't use the word shortcomings, but you are your biggest challenges going into this?
• 23:09
  I've never looked at cash and I looked at tax in my life.
• 23:12
  So that's going to be where I spend my time understanding the treasury function, the bit of treasury you need to do and the cash flow, because I've never had to do that.
• 23:21
  So I'm going to overindex there to get it back.
• 23:26
  And so my learnings would go in with an expectation of where I might need to really go almost back to school and learn on.
• 23:37
  um But then also using the 90 days philosophy of, you know, go in and don't make changes straight away, right?
• 23:44
  You're there, hopefully with a long tenure on the back of it.
• 23:47
  So do the right thing at the right times.
• 23:49
  And then some of other things I wasn't aware that I had in me as much as you go in and it takes a team to do all those things.
• 23:56
  So to really understand the team and who's got it, who hasn't, where have you got to invest more time or where actually have you got to make some changes to get people off the bus.
• 24:04
  You probably don't appreciate that much in a corporate environment because you have a big HR team and everything's quite structured, personal development plans, objectives, reviews.
• 24:12
  None of that existed.
• 24:14
  I'm a planner.
• 24:17
  So I kind of went in and probably wrote this all down.
• 24:20
  What do I expect?
• 24:20
  And then went back and reviewed it.
• 24:24
  But maybe I've got roast into glasses.
• 24:27
  It's not as daunting as you think, right?
• 24:28
  Because if you've got the right attitude and you've got the right level of experience, em And you.
• 24:35
  I hadn't done.
• 24:37
  I've probably done close to 20 years in corporates at that point, but I've been in various corporates and I'd always been in the.
• 24:43
  Almost the odd cousin within the business.
• 24:46
  So at Burberry I joined in emerging markets, which was almost a speedboat em function and eventually moved my way into a more corporate role.
• 24:55
  uh &S my last role was in again in international, which was.
• 25:01
  you know, this this kind of business development unit.
• 25:03
  So there wasn't the corporate structure behind it per se.
• 25:07
  So I think you've just got to know yourself and be authentic.
• 25:10
  And I didn't know why I was getting into an SME other than the headline of I just want to be more hands on.
• 25:16
  If you're in it because there's a financial incentive, i.e.
• 25:19
  it's private equity and there'll be a transaction, etc.
• 25:22
  You still got to roll up your sleeves and do all the other stuff in the meantime and the transaction might not happen.
• 25:27
  So I wasn't in it.
• 25:28
  Thankfully for that, I was in it because I wanted to.
• 25:30
  to add value to a business and get that sense of fulfillment.
• 25:34
  Yeah, it's an interesting point.
• 25:36
  You do speak to a lot of people wanting again to make the transition to private equity.
• 25:42
  And obviously, as we know, that means all manner of things ah these days, in particular.
• 25:49
  um What did you learn about making a move into that environment?
• 25:55
  And yeah, what are the differences do you think?
• 25:59
  Yeah, I think because it's just a smaller entity, you're just more aware of all the other stakeholders.
• 26:06
  and with private equity, you get to meet the stakeholders across the table.
• 26:15
  Whereas again, if I use Burberry, we'd meet some of the institutional investors here and there, but they're still owning relatively small chunks of the company.
• 26:25
  And there's clearly a huge amount more governance around it, whereas the private equity partners.
• 26:31
  It was my first time in dealing with them.
• 26:33
  And actually, we sold the business within a year.
• 26:35
  So just when you get to know them, we had new partners come on.
• 26:38
  That was a family office.
• 26:39
  That was a different environment altogether.
• 26:41
  m But you're just more acute that they you learn it in textbooks, stakeholder management, but here is truly the person or the people that own the business.
• 26:51
  have they got the same goals in mind as what the other people around your table, your peer group.
• 26:58
  So in this case, the CEO and the founder and the head of marketing and the head of production or the head of design.
• 27:04
  um And for some reason, I take that up on myself to try and fix all that because I'm a bit of a fixer.
• 27:10
  So that that was different.
• 27:11
  It was just so much more closer and realistic in terms of that stakeholder management.
• 27:16
  But moving, you're probably going to ask me this question next.
• 27:19
  And if you don't, I'm going to segue onto it.
• 27:21
  That's probably no different than doing an IPO for a micro cap company.
• 27:24
  Yep.
• 27:25
  Because now I'm meeting the bankers that are going to take us out.
• 27:27
  And I won't know all the shareholders name on the first hand, but I'm the one that's doing the initial public offering.
• 27:33
  I've always got to pretend like I know all the investors and take them on that journey.
• 27:38
  And the investor management thereafter, you're talking to a screen effectively, but you've almost got to visualize like they're a private equity holder because you're just trying to align on goals.
• 27:47
  And here's the resources we need to get to this point.
• 27:50
  And here's our plan of how to get there, call it a strategy.
• 27:53
  So that really helped me on that journey from corporate of who are stakeholders, who are shareholders, than customers and teams.
• 28:00
  actually there's someone that owns this business and they're a really important and a really, really important stakeholder to this.
• 28:07
  And when I actually know them by name and can sit down at a table, then that helps to bring it to life.
• 28:15
  do um not not many people who listen to this will probably end up doing an IPO and they do seem increasingly rare at the moment particularly.
• 28:30
  back in fashion right now, but...
• 28:33
  em Tell us a bit more about that because think that's interesting.
• 28:40
  Not many people have done that.
• 28:42
  And What was it?
• 28:45
  It's...
• 28:50
  was a of a blur.
• 28:52
  I mean, it was hard work and less not underestimated.
• 28:54
  And it was a US listed IPO.
• 28:56
  So I can't talk on behalf of how it compares to a UK one.
• 28:59
  And there's competition rates.
• 29:00
  And the more happening on that side of the pond than this side.
• 29:04
  Like with any transaction, you get a lot of guidance and help.
• 29:09
  So whether it's bankers, lawyers, accountants, you're going to be in the business during that process and after.
• 29:19
  And they're not, they're just there for the, you know, to get you up onto the steps, so to speak.
• 29:24
  And they take their fair cut of the deal.
• 29:26
  So there's a lot of similarities in that is that you don't have to know everything.
• 29:29
  Like I wasn't familiar with what the SEC does.
• 29:32
  wasn't familiar with US accounting standards.
• 29:35
  So I had to bring on a US CFO off the back of that.
• 29:38
  So I'm used to recruiting and I now know how to ask questions about US standards, but then use the audit partner for that as well in the US.
• 29:45
  there was a huge amount of preparation to make sure we were match fit to be IPO.
• 29:49
  So that happens behind the scenes and to an extent there's similarities there, whether you're listening or not.
• 29:55
  Because it's a regulated exchange with different laws, we had a huge amount of yards to go.
• 30:02
  There's different audit standards as an example.
• 30:04
  So it's two years worth of different audit standards.
• 30:06
  And then there's lots of similarities, the road shows, cetera, pitching and making sure you're generating the right level of interest.
• 30:18
  And then because it was in the US and I was based in the UK, we did a physical road show.
• 30:23
  So being away from family for like pretty much like 40 odd days in entirety, going from state to state, city to city, doing lots of in-person meetings while still running a ship back in the UK.
• 30:37
  And it's a ski brand.
• 30:39
  over the peak selling season, getting ready to do your purchase orders for the next.
• 30:44
  There were times when I'd go into my hotel room at night and literally just collapse on the bed and just go, I think my brain might explode without exaggerating and being dramatic.
• 30:52
  But it's like, I don't think you can take any much more.
• 30:55
  And then the day you think that the process is very antiquated, because you could be getting all this interest.
• 31:01
  And to an extent, this happens in private equity deals, but not probably as brutal as this.
• 31:05
  You only know whether you've got your order book value on the day that you've set.
• 31:10
  So let's say you're going live on the 1st of Feb and you're trying to raise $100 million.
• 31:15
  I'm exaggerating for a fact, it was much smaller than that, but 100 million.
• 31:19
  You only know when you walk into the banker's office or on a Zoom call before the market closes usually, so 3 p.m.
• 31:29
  whether you've hit that number or not.
• 31:31
  And sadly, twice, we fell below the number we're trying to get to.
• 31:34
  And they look at it, they do this all day long, especially when there's lots of IPOs, say, hey guys, you've kind of fallen short of the target, but hey, we've got a lot of interest, so what does that mean now?
• 31:43
  Do have to do it all again?
• 31:44
  Well, yeah, we'll set a new date.
• 31:45
  We'll phone NIC now and we'll phone the SEC and let them know.
• 31:49
  we're like, ah.
• 31:52
  And behind the scenes, we're like, we need that cash flow as well.
• 31:54
  We're not doing this for the sake of it.
• 31:56
  We've got debts to replay.
• 31:57
  We've got things to finance.
• 32:00
  So the expectation is you've got there.
• 32:03
  that, talking about suppressing feelings, I'm calm with the pressure and go, right, guys, roll sleeves up.
• 32:08
  Let's just get this done.
• 32:09
  I mean, you probably should burst out crying and you know you suppress it and carry on and thankfully the third time out we got there.
• 32:17
  And then you've got the PR to do off the back of it because then you're meant to be you know ringing bells and all that and being on Fox News and whatnot you know really.
• 32:25
  So and then you've got a business to run.
• 32:28
  So everything I just said is more than full time and then you've got the other side.
• 32:31
  So think it's another level of effort sophistication complexity versus say a private equity transaction.
• 32:40
  And the goal, I've got not got huge private equity transaction experience.
• 32:44
  I've got several, but you set a date, but it's not a hard stop date.
• 32:49
  You know, it's a, everyone's working towards that date.
• 32:52
  And if you're ready, you're ready, you go for it, but it's not down to this.
• 32:54
  Okay.
• 32:55
  The order books in and no back to square one, literally snakes and ladders go back and build the order book.
• 33:00
  And now people second guess why the order book wasn't where it was.
• 33:03
  So then some of your institutional investors pull out, you're like, why nothing's changed or there must be something.
• 33:10
  Nope.
• 33:11
  We just didn't fall short.
• 33:12
  And then you've got to rebuild a complete different order book.
• 33:15
  So it's, wouldn't put any like, would I have signed up for this experience?
• 33:19
  No.
• 33:20
  Am I grateful for it?
• 33:21
  On balance?
• 33:22
  Yes.
• 33:23
  I can now happily sit on the sidelines and advise people what to be prepared for.
• 33:28
  Not ready to jump in.
• 33:29
  But you're right.
• 33:30
  And when we got off the back of it, it took me about a month or something to sit back and go, shit, I just IPO as a CEO of business.
• 33:38
  I mean, I've never set myself kind of a big hairy audacious goal as a person of what to do.
• 33:44
  would that have been on it?
• 33:45
  Maybe.
• 33:46
  And you've just done it.
• 33:48
  So yeah, was, but there's no time to stop and celebrate it.
• 33:52
  It's like, now go and drive the business and utilize the funds properly.
• 33:57
  Quick message from me today, if you are a CFO, CEO, investor or talent leader that would be interested in appearing on the Stoics podcast, please drop me an email on the address below.
• 34:09
  Looking back on it, and obviously I think you mentioned earlier that health and family took a backseat and as part of that, is there any sort of tips and hacks and advice off the back of it for others going through a major transaction in the future that you would kind of go.
• 34:31
  I you said obviously you're collapsing into bed in the evening.
• 34:34
  Is there anything that kind of either in hindsight that you'd kind of say to people like, without giving you all of your advisory IP away on the Maybe that's just a new line of IP I could develop.
• 34:46
  Maybe I can monetize that.
• 34:47
  No, I...
• 34:51
  You know what?
• 34:55
  I think just, I just had to just brace for it, right?
• 34:58
  Like it's going to be brutal and just get ready for it.
• 35:01
  And I'd like to think I probably, I mean, my daughter was young enough to not really know and the beauty of, you know, FaceTime and WhatsApp video and stuff, you can still stay in contact.
• 35:10
  I tried to make home as set up as possible with any, you know, childcare, et cetera, just to make it slightly easier at home.
• 35:17
  But it was like, this is the way it was even, well, there wasn't really a choice.
• 35:21
  Like get off the bus and let someone else do it.
• 35:24
  didn't really, I didn't probably even contemplate that choice.
• 35:27
  It's like, no, I'm a fixer.
• 35:30
  get stuff done.
• 35:31
  I'm going to just, this is the way.
• 35:33
  I don't know why it's the way, but it's the way.
• 35:35
  And it was a lot of that a raffle actually, like we had some brilliant behaviors and values as a business that came from Simon's heart and his head.
• 35:42
  And that they stick with you, right?
• 35:44
  They're all part of your own DNA.
• 35:47
  But I think if I'd had an honest conversation with myself, could I have...
• 35:53
  I think the only way I could have probably looked after myself better, which would have been to not do it.
• 36:04
  There could have been some micro things at the time that you can move, because you weren't really in control that it was going to be three times.
• 36:09
  Like you're going to have three bites of the cherry.
• 36:12
  So whilst I could have meditated an extra five minutes in the morning or something like that, I don't know if it would have absolutely helped because I've not done it.
• 36:19
  The second time around on something, you're always slightly better and more efficient.
• 36:23
  So I think it's just be honest with yourself.
• 36:25
  Are you set up in a way that can do this?
• 36:27
  um But I was upping my vitamins and I was making sure I was getting more sleep and trying to hydrate more.
• 36:33
  was doing stuff like that.
• 36:34
  But equally, you go out with the bankers at end of the and have few martinis.
• 36:36
  it's a bit easier said than done.
• 36:41
  But I have that resilience and that stamina to keep going.
• 36:45
  And at times when I was ready for a journalist call, doing emails, getting ready to update the presentation, there were times I'm going, well, you are not multitasking here.
• 36:54
  You're doing lots of things badly.
• 36:55
  So just drop one.
• 36:57
  Yeah.
• 36:57
  So I guess the other thing would have been to have just said, look, the business needs to backfill this bit of the role.
• 37:03
  But can you cash pinched?
• 37:04
  Is that a good use of time?
• 37:05
  I bought in a CFO, thankfully.
• 37:07
  So that was a time where we were on an R-ing and we upped the experience around the table.
• 37:13
  And that took a huge burden off.
• 37:16
  I don't think I've given a really compelling answer.
• 37:18
  I need to think of it because there's just a lot to get done in a short space of time and it needs to get done.
• 37:25
  I mean, Ideally, it would have been a couple of years later, and AI would have helped with a lot of that.
• 37:30
  But not all of it.
• 37:33
  You touched on sort of multitasking there.
• 37:38
  We live in an age of sort of productivity, obsession, trying to find more time.
• 37:45
  I think one of the things when you think about the CEO role is, you you're spinning all the plates and you've got to look after the whole train set.
• 37:55
  How do you how do you go?
• 37:57
  How do you do that?
• 37:59
  Effectively?
• 37:59
  How do you plan?
• 38:00
  How do you prioritize things for those that Maybe sort of, again, aspiring for moving from CFO to CEO one day where you've got a smaller piece of the pie, albeit there's some broad CFO roles out there these days.
• 38:13
  How do you kind of...
• 38:15
  Well, I think I was ready for it because of my broader CFO role, to be honest.
• 38:19
  I'd looked after operations, customer service at one point tech, at one point the website, RAFA, um people both in retail, but then also in the offices.
• 38:30
  So I think I had already had, I probably made enough mistakes along the way.
• 38:36
  Yeah.
• 38:36
  Because you start off badly by trying to do it all and you soon realize not quick enough that that's the wrong way.
• 38:42
  And you do face, I was doing it during COVID, right, where I didn't have to commute and I was at my screen morning, noon, at night.
• 38:48
  was just, it takes its toll on you, right?
• 38:52
  You push towards burnout.
• 38:55
  so I had a good grounding for that.
• 38:58
  Again, back to the what other, it sounds such a cliche, it's stakeholder management on it.
• 39:04
  So what do we as a business need to get done?
• 39:06
  Who plays what role?
• 39:07
  I never saw myself as top of the pyramid.
• 39:09
  um cliche again, servant leader with her.
• 39:13
  I'm one of the team and some of the stuff I can roll up and get my sleeves on.
• 39:16
  was a 30 person business.
• 39:18
  some of it we're going to have to just get done and, you know, I'll fire up the spreadsheet or the PowerPoint or whatever else I need to do.
• 39:26
  But then it's making sure that where you are, whether it's the right experience you have across the team, let's say, I don't know, an area I've not looked after before, design or marketing.
• 39:40
  where we need to get to, is that correct?
• 39:43
  And who can I ask in the team?
• 39:44
  Because they've got the experience.
• 39:45
  You're leaning on others for that, but then I can't do it, which is a blessing and a curse.
• 39:50
  But then you're setting clear expectations with that person around, how long will it take and how can we do it?
• 39:55
  And you go through all the very annoying questions for the person, how, what, why, when.
• 40:02
  OK, great.
• 40:02
  You need a resource at that level.
• 40:04
  Let's go out and find them.
• 40:06
  So you can act very quickly.
• 40:07
  The nice thing is, You've got the mindset of a CFO, but the of leadership position of the CEO.
• 40:13
  So you can kind of fast track some of those decisions and go, well, for almost like when I joined at PM, we ultimately made technical ski product that looked fashionable and has long lead times because of the fabrics.
• 40:29
  You have one season a year, as opposed to fast fashion that could have as many as you want.
• 40:35
  And we had a wholesale business and a direct to consumer business.
• 40:38
  So the wholesale calendar dictates a lot of things, but we didn't have one person that just looked at that.
• 40:42
  um Just one big jigsaw puzzle or train set, as you'll say.
• 40:47
  We didn't have anyone looking at that.
• 40:49
  And I'm like, well, coming from my experience, we would, whether you want to call it a head of product or achieve products office.
• 40:55
  So we had people looking at isolation, but not someone bring it together.
• 40:58
  So I was like, well, let's take the I was coming in as a CFO and CEO.
• 41:04
  Bank one of the roles for now then the chairman entrusted me to do both roles.
• 41:08
  I'll take that salary and we'll put it into it all of it but put some of it into a CPO role and start to join up the pieces of the pie critical paths making sure we've got the right information so that If I hadn't had the experience, maybe I'd have gone, well, I can just pick up merchandising.
• 41:25
  can probably, Critical Path is just a project plan.
• 41:28
  Thankfully, I didn't have the, I had had the experience to able to look at where am I going to be to do this myself because we're entrepreneurial and we don't have much cash versus where do I need to rely on others to get it done?
• 41:41
  And constantly then check in with the team, right?
• 41:43
  So, you know, I have a lot of one-to-ones, but, I'd like to think they're productive one-to-ones.
• 41:47
  not just like gossiping about whatever it needs to be gossiped about.
• 41:51
  But they are, are we on track to do these things?
• 41:53
  What can I do to help you?
• 41:54
  Okay, great, you're on track.
• 41:58
  We don't need to catch up next week, do we?
• 41:59
  But I'm here.
• 42:00
  And I'm not a person that is into presenteeism.
• 42:05
  at the same time, it can come across as I'm quite lax in terms of what the structure is of the organization, i.e.
• 42:11
  how many days in the office and all that lovely stuff.
• 42:14
  I'm just like, are you clear on what needs to get done?
• 42:17
  Are you getting the resources you need?
• 42:18
  And there is an office.
• 42:20
  the zoom, you're going to be out of photo shoots, you're going to be doing this.
• 42:24
  I'll know who's not showing up and kind of do it in that way.
• 42:27
  So but ultimately, the long story short is I still take on too much.
• 42:31
  And that's what this period of reflection is going.
• 42:33
  How do you not do that again, which clearly the other stakeholders benefit from.
• 42:37
  So they're all enjoying it.
• 42:38
  They're not going to hold the mirror up and say, you've just taken on a bit too much because they won't see where the imbalance shows up.
• 42:46
  I don't know you had any and if you did how you dealt with any sort of imposter syndrome in that having to do CEO role all of a sudden for the first time.
• 42:57
  Funny enough, I didn't there, but I did when I picked up the Chief uh People Officer role at RAF.
• 43:04
  And I don't know whether that was just the circumstance as well, because we were about to head into uh lockdowns and things.
• 43:11
  at time, I felt I was paranoid that the whole business was watching me, because I was the numbers person, the people person.
• 43:18
  was only once we kind of debriefed in an exec meeting about five months later or whenever we could meet in person, they were like, no, it wasn't paranoid.
• 43:25
  We were all looking at you.
• 43:26
  So, but that's where I put my hand up to Simon and said, the CEO and said, look, I'm, I can see why you've, why we're doing this and I'm the CPO.
• 43:37
  I get it.
• 43:37
  I get why I'm the chief people officer in addition to the other responsibilities.
• 43:42
  But I'm having a bit of a wobble.
• 43:44
  I don't think I'd have used the word imposter syndrome, but having listened to Stephen Bartlett enough times, I now have it in my vocabulary.
• 43:50
  And I was like, and he was like, well, let's get you a coach.
• 43:53
  And we had a coach for the executive team.
• 43:56
  And then I had a one to one coach and that helped me a lot.
• 43:58
  And she gave me some simple things to do, like go and speak to some other people directors or C.P.O.s and I use my network and went out to a few and and then they hold the mirror up and go, actually, some of the things you're doing in there is so progressive.
• 44:09
  Can we take that?
• 44:10
  had a really good head of people at the time.
• 44:13
  He's now people director and he's gone on to some other things.
• 44:16
  And so I had someone technically that was good, just wasn't there from a a leadership point of view, shall we say, and didn't see the bigger picture.
• 44:24
  And then I backed him and he backed me and it worked and the coach kind of slotted in.
• 44:27
  So by the time I got to the thing, sorry, perfect moment, the time I'd have been in denial about something would have been something that I felt I'd already overcome because did the business have a strategy when I went in?
• 44:42
  I'd say no, it didn't.
• 44:43
  It had a vision.
• 44:43
  So put the strategy in place.
• 44:45
  Did it understand its unique economics?
• 44:47
  No, it didn't.
• 44:47
  So let's understand those and a path towards profitability.
• 44:51
  And then it needs a really strong culture to deliver those things.
• 44:53
  I'm really oversimplifying it.
• 44:55
  And then let's build that.
• 44:56
  that's talent and culture is very nebulous, right?
• 44:59
  But it's how people show up and how they interact with each other.
• 45:03
  The thing I could have had imposter syndrome about would have been, I'm not like the most experienced CFO about fundraising.
• 45:10
  I don't have a black book of all these people that can just come in and fundraise.
• 45:14
  But I'm like, OK, but it needs to get done.
• 45:17
  So I didn't have a moment.
• 45:18
  I probably didn't have stop and think about, sure, I'm not good at this.
• 45:21
  we eventually worked it out, right?
• 45:23
  So through some private placements, but then eventually an IPO.
• 45:27
  So thankfully, at that point, I didn't have it.
• 45:29
  I probably had it more doing the consulting and the advisory roles right now as well.
• 45:33
  You've struck an emotion, because I've never done that before.
• 45:36
  I've done it in disguise, in business.
• 45:39
  Someone asked me to go in business partner with.
• 45:42
  a billion dollar refurbishment program at Marks & Spencer as a 20-odd year old.
• 45:46
  I'm like, yeah, I'd do that.
• 45:47
  There was no chart.
• 45:48
  You just do it.
• 45:49
  It's your job.
• 45:50
  You get told to do it and you work your way through it.
• 45:53
  Whereas now I'm like, I have to do my own business development.
• 45:57
  I have to go out there and do it.
• 45:58
  I'm still obviously intrigued by CEO or CFO or CEO roles that are out there.
• 46:03
  But I'm also like, there's people out there that could benefit from my advice and you need to do it and build them.
• 46:09
  It's not that hard.
• 46:10
  But at the time, I'm like, won't stop me doing it.
• 46:15
  What are you most excited about in this next phase of your career?
• 46:24
  I think I'm just most excited full stop for our period, as Americans would say, rather than my bit of the career.
• 46:32
  I think we're at a real inflection point.
• 46:34
  I mean, we're obviously sat here in London and we're talking just before I think the camera started rolling that on the whole is negative news central.
• 46:42
  And then you see trillions of dollars coming into things like AI.
• 46:47
  I'm fortunate enough that I've got 25ish years, maybe longer now of knowing how businesses work and how the role of a CFO or however you want to label me operates.
• 47:01
  And now we've got this amazing transformation or acceleration of technology.
• 47:07
  I think if I was starting out in my career, it'd be hard to know how to apply that technology to the experience I've got.
• 47:12
  um And I think You have businesses today that clearly they're a figment of someone's imagination will become a billion dollar business in a few years time.
• 47:22
  You just don't know about them.
• 47:23
  Others that will crash and burn sadly.
• 47:26
  And I just think at the moment that that inflection point of tech with people's desire just to improve their lives especially in the face of adversity at the moment is that on the whole for me is exciting.
• 47:41
  Other people it's petrifying.
• 47:43
  So and I mean, I'm an optimist.
• 47:47
  what I'm trying to do then for me is go, how do I carve my path in that?
• 47:51
  Because I've got the wisdom of the work I've been doing over a couple of decades.
• 47:57
  I embrace AI, by no means an AI expert, but I don't think I need to be because I'm effectively a consumer expert.
• 48:05
  And how do I marry those two up while bringing this generation on board?
• 48:09
  Because there's days when I'm in the petrified camp going, what will my daughter do?
• 48:15
  And is it exciting that we're humans, we need connection, we need physical connection and it can't just all be done with impersonal connections, know, it's artificial intelligence, it's created by humans, so you still need the human somewhere within it.
• 48:29
  So I'm largely excited about that, that inflection point that we get to live through.
• 48:33
  It'd be like living through the Industrial Revolution that just took a slow time to play out.
• 48:38
  We're in that moment.
• 48:39
  It's actually a good time to be alive and it's, if you remind yourselves of that time when...
• 48:43
  the water main burst again and everything comes grinding into a halt.
• 48:48
  And I try to just not watch any mainstream media because that just depresses me.
• 48:53
  is a good strategy.
• 48:55
  And what if you were a founder of a sort of an earlier stage consumer business at the moment, which obviously where you spent a lot of your time, what do you think the key themes are in the consumer space at the moment?
• 49:12
  Sort of if you're talking to and advising founders of those of which there's quite a few exciting businesses out there at the moment.
• 49:19
  I think the ones I see the common themes where it's successful is they truly obsess over the customer.
• 49:24
  They truly know who they are serving and are not latching onto this idea that the customer will be obsessed about them.
• 49:30
  It's like they know their customer or their target audience, their target addressable market, and the McKinsey spill will come out.
• 49:38
  And then they're finding that product or service that marries that customer.
• 49:42
  But then equally, they are paranoid about being complacent.
• 49:48
  Are we innovating enough, but not too ahead of the market or the customer's needs?
• 49:52
  think those that find that sweet.
• 49:54
  But to be I don't think that's any different from a founder today versus in 1900.
• 49:58
  em I think there is an element of you've got to not perfectly meet the customer's needs because they'll get bored with that or someone will undercut you and do a slightly different service or a product.
• 50:08
  But those that truly understand why they exist and what they are serving to that customer are the ones I'm seeing.
• 50:16
  They're the ones that give me the butterflies when I'm working with them.
• 50:22
  Because then we can turn that into a mission, we can turn that into a strategy and then we can execute with that.
• 50:27
  So often they're lacking that side of it is how do I make this work?
• 50:30
  I've got the idea, I've got the thing or I've got it this far, how do we now scale it?
• 50:36
  So they're the themes that come out for me, which are basic, right?
• 50:40
  Are you making something or serving something that someone needs and do you who they are?
• 50:46
  Is there anyone that you admire at the moment, anyone that stands out in the space?
• 50:52
  ah Also, are any segments that are particularly interesting and exciting for you?
• 50:59
  I'm probably still gathering my thoughts on that, to be honest.
• 51:01
  think that there are a couple, for sure.
• 51:05
  one of the things I learned at RAFA, back to balance that you said earlier around timings and burning candles at both ends and things, I was so inward looking.
• 51:16
  I I looked after a tech team and then never spoke to another technology director out there, with the exception of the people directors I talking about.
• 51:22
  And then when I left RAFA, was like, oh my God, we could have done things so differently.
• 51:26
  And it wasn't my job to do it, but I could have been having probably more...
• 51:29
  meaningful conversations with a tech director around things like that.
• 51:32
  So when I went into Perfect Moment, I said, I'm going to keep my network going across various faces of the business.
• 51:40
  And therefore, you look outwardly at some other brands that doing, if I just think about the apparel space, who are doing really well.
• 51:47
  um And they weren't all British brands, although I'm probably going to, I'm not going to say any actually, because I need to give my thoughts, because also it depends on what success looks like.
• 51:55
  like I used to, I'm going to say this in Cameron.
• 51:58
  Let's probably leave it in.
• 51:59
  strongly admire what BrewDog were doing.
• 52:01
  Yeah.
• 52:03
  And I looked at them as a, wow, they're going against this huge industry and they're crafting something different and they've just gone too far into some avenues they probably shouldn't have gone into.
• 52:17
  And hence success, cash is king.
• 52:20
  When you then look at the bottom line, it's horrific.
• 52:24
  And you wonder whether they can survive their current financial woes of it or not.
• 52:27
  or get bought by Heineken, and in which case, mission failed, right?
• 52:32
  So I'm looking at some apparel brands at the moment and go, wow, you've, in a very congested space, carved your white space.
• 52:40
  I'm always blessed that Raffer created its own category, premium cycle wear didn't exist.
• 52:43
  So it was nice to watch that journey.
• 52:46
  And people laughed at Simon when he tried to create it.
• 52:48
  They laughed, what are you talking about?
• 52:50
  And he stuck with it.
• 52:51
  So I love that determination, but also he bought in a team that helped him get there.
• 52:56
  cross marketing products, my little part in finance, et cetera.
• 53:00
  So I'm watching some in that space to go, but they truly, when you're going to get to meet a founder or if they've entrusted a general manager in the business and you talk to them and they truly get the vision of that brand, that DNA, that product, that customer, you will back that they're going to succeed.
• 53:18
  It's when they dilute it or slightly go off on a tangent.
• 53:21
  So if I use BrewDogs again, should they have had a hotel yet?
• 53:23
  Probably not.
• 53:25
  Stick to making great beer.
• 53:28
  There's a time when you potentially diversify, but sometimes it's too soon.
• 53:37
  Is there anything else that we haven't touched on or important to you that we haven't?
• 53:45
  I like I've spoke for absolutely ages.
• 53:47
  uh I don't know, Neil, have I?
• 53:51
  It's not been that long.
• 53:52
  Is it not?
• 53:54
  Anything else?
• 53:54
  I mean, there's loads of importance.
• 53:56
  I think that the biggest thing, look, if you introduce me to someone, let's go 10 years ago, Mark's an accountant, he's a CFO or an FD at the time, I the initial stereotype that comes up or the archetype that comes up is you're a very pragmatic analytical and you end up labeling yourself with that despite all the amazing training that I've had through M &S and Burberry and lots of work on you and your mission, your purpose and all that stuff.
• 54:28
  You still can't help but as much as I have a deep understanding of me, my persona and my strengths, it almost negates the creative side.
• 54:42
  And then through taking on CEO Royal, you give them a tiny bit more permission to do the creative side.
• 54:50
  And some of the coaches along the way would tap into that or push against that stereotype.
• 54:54
  So in the last few months, I've tapped way more into the creative side of things, which completely feeds the pragmatic side.
• 55:02
  So and it's where you get into the flow state as well.
• 55:05
  And you help them, these founders, you help in your advisory position to come up with the creative solutions, which I was always doing.
• 55:11
  just think of myself permission to do it.
• 55:14
  So think that's I don't know if we would discuss that today, but that's something that's put constantly on my mind is It's back to this.
• 55:21
  My.
• 55:24
  My intellect has always taken over and this year I'm going, no, do you know what?
• 55:28
  Just take, you're there, you're going to be used, but let's use some of the other parts of your body and your mind to get the desired outcome.
• 55:37
  Just give it a go and see what happens.
• 55:38
  And it's actually quite fast.
• 55:39
  And then you power that with AI and you've got some alchemy that's super exciting at the moment.
• 55:46
  Like I say, in a world that's pretty dark and bleak, that is so exciting.
• 55:50
  What it on the AI question, I guess, you every conversation we have at the moment doesn't matter who it is, it pops up.
• 55:56
  How are you using it at the moment?
• 56:00
  What's interesting to you about sort what we can do with AI today?
• 56:03
  isn't me, I'm in bed.
• 56:05
  uh Look, I'm using it as a tool like any tool, right?
• 56:09
  um I don't still have a paper ledger.
• 56:12
  I've been using Excel for quite a few years and the various ERPs.
• 56:16
  I think I have, I've been disappointed with technology more than I've been excited about technology over my life, especially when someone comes in and promises you the world on an FPNA tool, you're like, no, it still doesn't do this and doesn't do this.
• 56:28
  I've embraced it.
• 56:29
  way more than I have any other technology.
• 56:31
  And the rate of change of it is unbelievable.
• 56:34
  And especially now I'm working a lot more by myself and alone more.
• 56:39
  I almost have an assistant with me.
• 56:43
  I won't label the brand because but I'm and to see how that's involved in all walks of life.
• 56:49
  I helped it to plan a holiday this year.
• 56:51
  Yeah.
• 56:52
  You know, so I'm using a real mic and I'm starting to speak to some AI experts or key opinion leaders as well as through various networking and seeing how they're using it in their life and it's like, wow, this is here to enhance health productivity, but it's not here to take over in my view and I could be naive on that.
• 57:11
  So I'm just using it to enhance efficiency.
• 57:13
  If I can do something in 20 minutes, it would normally take me like two days.
• 57:17
  I'm going to use it.
• 57:18
  But then I've seen some bad experiences of it, but I'm just going to come back to it.
• 57:21
  So I tried to do some modeling for it.
• 57:23
  I was like, right, I want to do this, I want to do this using whether it was copilot or something else.
• 57:26
  And it said it could do it.
• 57:27
  And then I looked at it, I was like, you cannot do it.
• 57:29
  But thankfully, I know how to ask the question because I've got the experience.
• 57:33
  So I'm pumped by it and excited by it.
• 57:35
  But you could go, I'm going to ask it the same prompts in three months time.
• 57:38
  And it may have got there.
• 57:40
  Or go and get some of these billions that have just been plowed into AI and say, I can probably help define what it's trying to do.
• 57:47
  Because there's a need out there for that.
• 57:50
  I'm fascinated to see how that statement ages as well because most CFOs that I'm speaking to are still distrusting of it.
• 57:59
  like, well, I can't, I'm not putting my name on whatever comes out of that.
• 58:03
  That's getting checked to an inch of its life.
• 58:07
  As we know, it still makes quite a few errors, but it'd be fascinating to see in a couple of years' time, as you it's 99.9 % accurate.
• 58:18
  100%.
• 58:19
  And it's good to do like I've been, you know, in a few interview processes and just help me scrape the data on the results.
• 58:24
  like, tell me about this, this, and it will tell you its limitations.
• 58:29
  And it's just taken the, should we say the non brain power work of the tedious work of the data scraping in one place.
• 58:38
  go and it obviously listed sources so I can go and fact check the sources and it's not hallucinating.
• 58:43
  And I go right that's That stopped me procrastinating on that first bit because I didn't want to do that bit.
• 58:47
  That was the bit that I didn't need to do as a human.
• 58:51
  And my artificial human's been able to do that.
• 58:53
  Great.
• 58:54
  And now I can add value.
• 58:55
  And then if, because I have a bit more time, and then correcting its errors for him, saying, I would have done it this way or this way.
• 59:03
  So I ended up having this weird conversation on my computer.
• 59:06
  I actually, like planning one of our holidays recently, I introduced my wife to it because she's self-employed.
• 59:14
  And I thought you can do things probably a bit more efficiently on certain things.
• 59:18
  And I said, look, let's we're planning a trip.
• 59:21
  I've never even done this before.
• 59:22
  Let's just do it live.
• 59:22
  So we went in and said, we want to do these things and all this.
• 59:25
  And like the first pass was definitely not the finished article, but it introduced us to towns or places we want to go.
• 59:32
  We gave some very clear criteria.
• 59:34
  I'd probably say 70 % of the hotels are recommended.
• 59:37
  We ended up booking.
• 59:38
  Now the next step will be just book it because you've got my credit card details.
• 59:41
  You know my trip advisory.
• 59:43
  um I don't do any of that.
• 59:45
  But if we did, you can imagine how powerful it could really be.
• 59:47
  And you have to just have faith that it's going to learn over time.
• 59:52
  I think it's an amazing time and an amazing tool.
• 59:55
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 59:56
  I've got uh a wedding planner agent at the moment at work, yeah, to your point is, yeah, it's found some things I'd never would have thought of and saved a lot of time.
• 1:00:05
  am interested reading some other bits the other day though about, cause yeah, I'm using it an ungodly amount every day now.
• 1:00:18
  But is it, there were some studies the other day talking about how it might be actually impacting people's cognition and diminishing that and also your ability to remember stuff because you're so reliant on that you don't use your brain as much you don't absorb as much because you've which would be interesting to see how that plays out.
• 1:00:39
  Yeah, I think I read a similar thing, actually.
• 1:00:41
  it's really weird.
• 1:00:42
  I've turned, I made some micro adjustments in the last few months of I'm not a big device person.
• 1:00:51
  But I could find myself losing quite a few hours researching competitors on Instagram.
• 1:00:57
  And then before you know it, I'm like, oh god, that's two hours.
• 1:01:00
  So I now put my phone away, don't have it with me, unless I between certain hours.
• 1:01:05
  It's not in my bedroom at night.
• 1:01:07
  if I'm reading, if I'm just reading on my device, getting paper books again.
• 1:01:12
  So I'm probably subconsciously aware of that.
• 1:01:17
  And then when I'm in my work zone, it's like, know, Gemini is the tool that I'm going to be using for these moments.
• 1:01:23
  But have I now just gone down this rabbit warren of research and things I don't need to research?
• 1:01:29
  then playing with Pomodoro methods and stuff like that, just to try and limit my time on it.
• 1:01:33
  Because I can see how you go to mush if you're not careful.
• 1:01:37
  So, but that's why I say again, coupled with the wisdom with now an amazing tool, it's pretty impressive time.
• 1:01:46
  I worry about the schooling system because it's not gearing kids up to be educated in the modern workplace and how to empower it.
• 1:01:53
  that's, we haven't spoken about that.
• 1:01:56
  And I don't know enough about it.
• 1:01:57
  All I just know is it's probably square peg round hole at the moment and needs addressing.
• 1:02:03
  radical transformation needed, particularly, you know, some of these old fashioned ways of learning and, you know, you could have argued that needed to happen before.
• 1:02:13
  m But you do think it's got it, you got to start moving people, young people and children to um how to use this and actually, it's leadership, problem solving, creativity.
• 1:02:29
  oh some financial skills that we would never taught school, these basic things should be, let's do that.
• 1:02:37
  And, you know, maybe we don't need to do some of the old fashioned stuff.
• 1:02:41
  Yeah, and empathy and humanity and you know, don't forget all those great things, especially when they're kids together in a school.
• 1:02:47
  They're currently not at home on screens.
• 1:02:50
  what you're going to do with all that free time you've got now.
• 1:02:53
  Be human.
• 1:02:55
  Super, well that's a nice way to finish Mark.
• 1:02:58
  Again, a short notice, pleasure.
• 1:03:01
  Cheers.