Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / Ep. 245 ~ The FeeBee's Of-Core's

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Ep. 245 ~ The FeeBee's Of-Core's · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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M If you remember, like Bob Clark and Doug Campbell, they actually devoted
0:14
the show what was it called the lines of lines of party what junk?
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Yeah, what an embarrassment. I mean those everything is going to hell down
0:29
here inducted God now God, oh yeah. I had to let it run
1:32
just a little bit longer today because I love it, loving, loving than
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intro music. Thank you, Shepherd or fire. What's up, everybody?
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Welcome to the show. This is episode number two hundred and forty five of
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the Loan GMing Podcast. It's me, It's me. It's a Triple B.
1:57
Bob Carter, otherwise known as Rob Clark, here with you today.
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What do I gotta do? I mean, I have a fairly simple name.
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I mean, I don't know. I digress anyway, Today on the
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show, we're gonna get into some fairly interesting things concerning New Orleans, of
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all things, the international trademark. We're gonna be talking about the fracas on
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Canal Street and all that jazz. Before we do a couple of things,
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I just want to reiterate and mention again, your boy, that's me,
2:50
the Triple B and my buddy Joe Borelli. We're gonna be presenting at Lancer
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this year. You remember in Dallas Ofference this year at the Lorenzo Hotel.
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We are gonna be there virtually, unfortunately not in person, but you know
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who will be there in person, Doug Campbell. That's right. It's still
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the Dallas Action podcasting cro host with me of the Quick Hits podcast, so
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you can look for and hang out with Doug. But it's gonna be a
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great lineup of speakers and presenters and you're not gonna want to miss it,
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so make sure you check it out. Head overard to JFK Lancer Publications dot
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com you secure your tickets. That's right, that's right. I'm gonna drink
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an entire bottle of hot sauce before the presentation, so you are not gonna
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want to miss it. Your boy will be breathing fire, Baby, breathing
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fire. Speaking of breathing fire. Before we get started, let's also hear
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a word from our most delicious sponsor of the show, Silk City Hot Sauce.
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That's right. So, if you'd like to support this show, support your
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Sauce and listen. That's all you gotta do. It's fairly simple, all
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right. So well let's get into some things here. Now. The first
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guy I want to talk about, and this is an entirely separate incident from
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the now Street Street fracas. You know that Oswald was arrested for on August
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nine, nineteen sixty three, along along with probably Springier and two other anti
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Castro Cubans. There was also another leafleting incident that I believed happened after this
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one, and it's famously caught on film by W DSU cameras. And it's
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right in front of the International Trademark in New Orleans, which just so happens
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that is where clay Shaw is the president of the International Trademark. Now,
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anybody that's anybody who's ever looked into this entire assassination case knows the story about
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clay Shaw. Clay Shaw is the only person to ever have charges brought against
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him in a court of law in the United States concerning the assassination of President
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John F. Kennedy. He was found not guilty by a jury of his
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peers. And a lot of people have different mixed feelings about the Garrison investigation.
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But we're not here today to talk about that. Let's get into a
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little bit about snitches. Could snitches get stitches at least? That's uh,
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you know what they say around the yard. We have here a United States
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memory in the FBI doc right dated eleven twenty three, sixty three, that's
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the day after the assassination to the Special Asian in Charge in New Orleans from
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Special Agent Kevin Harrigan, subject information concerning assassination of President Kennedy. On eleven
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twenty three, at ten twenty am, mister Jesse R. Or, the
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public relations director of the International Trademark New Orleans, telephonically advised that WDSU had
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taken any film of Lee Harry Oswald as he was distributing pamphlets in New Orleans
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last year. He also included in the film would be the individual who helped
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Oswald distribute pamphlets. In addition, mister Kor advised that This film appeared on
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Channel six television of the night before. So apparently on Channel six on the
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night of the assassination, they showed this footage of Oswald distributing pamphlets. Now,
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I don't know whether the FBI agent got this wrong or Jesse Corps said
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it wrong, but it says a film of the Oswald as he was distributing
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pamphlets in New Orleans last year. Well, that would indicate that he was
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in New Orleans in nineteen sixty two distributing pamphlets. But that's not correct.
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This is it actually happened the same year, just a couple months before the
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assassination. So there's just that one minor detail that should be clarified there.
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So on November the twenty ninth, nineteen and sixty three, Jesse Corp the
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third was interviewed by the FBI. The phoebees they got to him. They
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can't tell him folks. So on November the twenty ninth, nineteen sixty and
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three, Jesse R Corp the third of Saint Charles Avenue stated that he was
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presently director of the Jesse r Or Public Relations firm, located in Room two
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eleven of the International Trademark one thirty four Champ Street, New Orleans, Louisiana,
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and added that he was also presently doing relations doing public relations political work
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for his client, Robert F. Kennan candidate for governor State Louisiana. He
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stated that sometime during the middle of the month in September of sixty three,
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when he was confirming with political associates at the Roosevelt Hotel in New Orleans,
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he heard a rumor that someone was picketing the International trademark any telephone radio station
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WDSU to inquire if the trademark was being he stated that he was informed that
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it had been reported that pickets were located at this mart and Corps added that
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he was aware that this mart had previously being been picketed like streamist groups,
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the names of which groups he had never been made aware of, but explaining
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that to his knowledge, they were small groups of males but predominantly females,
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who picketed those City Hall and the International House in New Orleans, as these
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buildings had displayed the United Nation's flag. Of course, stated that he immediately
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went over to this mart to see what was going on, and noted at
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this location two persons who seemed to be handing out leaflets bearing the notation hands
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Off Cuba and the names damp L h Oswald four nine o seven Magazine Street,
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New Orleans, Louisiana. He stated, at this location he immediately conferred
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with a friend of his and trademark associate named John Alice, owner of John
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Alice and Company, an import export firm international trademark, one twenty four Camp
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Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. He stated that Alice showed him a handbill
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similar to the one described above, and Corps added that he was so angered
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with the entire idea of someone passing out such handbills that he immediately wadded the
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handbill up and threw it in the face of one person passing out such handbills.
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Course stated, in an addition, he hurst this individual and called him
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a communist. Corp explained that the person at whom he threw the handbill moved
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his head slightly and did not and did not speak to him, but gave
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him a cold, an icy stare. Or advised that on this occasion he
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did not know the name of this individual, but explained that without any doubt,
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this individual was directing the activities on this occasion at the Trademark, and
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further explained that it was not until November twenty second, nineteen sixty three,
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when Lee Harvey Oswald's picture appeared on television, that he was aware that the
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individual who was passing out these handbills on this occasion was identical with the Harvey
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Oswald. He advised it neither prior to this occasion nor subsequent to it,
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had he seen this individual, with the obvious exception of seeing Oswald's picture on
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television in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy. He described Donswald as approximately
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under thirty five foot eight inches tall, one hundred and fifty pounds, sucking
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wet, appearing frail, with his hair thinning in the front, and appearing
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dark. Shortly after the above described incident, Or stated he went to his
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office in the Trademark and while there received a telephone call from someone someone located
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at radio station w DSU, who inquired of Court if a cameraman had arrived
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at the Trademark yet and if pictures were being taken up the activity at this
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location. He stated that he informed a person who called from this station that
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while he was observing the activity at this location, a photographer from the radio
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station was observed to be taking pictures. Corp was furnished copies of approximately six
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photographs taken by radio station WDSU on this occasion and picked out in an individual
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from among persons represented in these photographs as identical with the individual he saw the
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trade mark during September nineteen sixty three, and added that this same individual was,
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in his opinion, identical with Oswald. Or continued to examine the photographs
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referred to and picked out a white male described by Core below as being an
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associate of Oswald's on this occasion, but added that he did not know the
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name. White male, six foot one, one hundred and seventy five pounds,
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twenty to twenty one years old, hair like brown, peculiarities. The
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guy had a sun tan okay, As if that's a peculiar thing in New
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Orleans at the end of the summer, I mean, come on. Man
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Or added that, as he recalled, only the two persons described were observed
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by him to be passing out handbills on this occasion. From among the persons
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pictured in the photographs, Corp observed he identified the following named persons and added
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that these individuals were present on that occasion as spectators of the activity at the
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Trademark. J EA, identified by Coors as a Japanese who rides an import
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export firm Masuga and Company Limited, on the third floor of the International Trademard
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at one twenty four Camp Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, telephone number two
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five seventy four one. Also a John Alice, owner of John Allison Company,
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an import export firm at the International Trademark. A missus Isaac Dolores neely
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named by Coors as his former secretary and presently associated with the New Orleans Press
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Group New Orleans, Louisiana. Course stated that he possibly observed the activity at
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this mart for approximately twenty or twenty five minutes at the time in question,
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and added that since he thought this information might be useful to the FBI,
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he telephoned the organization and reported the nature of the activity described. But well,
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thank god that this man let the FBI know what was going on,
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because how dare somebody thinking, anybody in this city in front of the International
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Trademark, how dare they? Dare they now? When Harold Wiseberg was investigating
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I'm sorry in New Orleans helping investigate the Clay Shaw case. He actually became
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really good friends with Jesse, cool men with him. Many times. Core
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gave him a lot of information. They drank together, he see, he
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says here, and this even happened after the play Shaw case was over,
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he says. My source on most that does not come from documents and interviews
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with with others was Jesse Core, who became a friend. The Monday before
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Thanksgiving last year in nineteen seventy one, he took me to a great lunch
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at the Commander's Palace at the Garden section of New Orleans. I rarely get
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drunk anymore, never when working, but I can keep drinking. I'm not
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boasting when I say I stayed with him round for round. I think Jesse
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wanted to relax or may have had a head start. We were both glad
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to see each other, both getting to the restaurant early. Although he was
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in the middle of a campaign and had several clients. He had been advertising
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and pr manager for Garrison's first campaign. There was a pleasant intrusion that ended
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confidential conversation. A friend of Jesse's, a real movie character named Charlie,
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came in with a woman who was alumni chairman for the coming Bull game.
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Charlie was a friend of Matt Meyer Lansky's, although from a fine family,
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the appointed source of his apparent wealth. Charles lubricated to the point where he'd
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talked only personal things about Lansky. They had a business relationship. So then
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it goes on a little bit talking about other folks, filler for folks in
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New Orleans, and then you get back to talking about the International Trademark,
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and he says that was on the beat of warning Debris. He covered it
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as regularly as a reporter such as base with regulars on his beat. There
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was an additional reason, charl and the normal work of the International Trademark brought
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in a wide assortment of foreign dignitaries who were overloaded with enemies like Samosa.
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Thus there were legitimate security concerns the FBI had, and Jesse met with Debris
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on such things, often knew him personally and regarded him as a friend.
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And aside, he was always baffled that Debris had so little interest, took
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so long in coming when he phoned to leave word that he had the leaflet
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Oswald had been using. I do have a memo of that and as the
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rocks of the original from Jesse, plus other details further aside, Jesse was
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in the original WDSU footage. He reviewed it with ed Planter as soon as
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Oswald was mentioned, and it was still there, not an ol take.
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Ed Planter confirmed it by phone the day after I saw Jesse Tuesday morning before
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I met Guy. Now I learned thing about learned things of learning things about
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debris by just working, bobbing into it. For one thing, a lawyer
20:55
named Del arranged to defend the spurious Brgner suits that had been had been a
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law school classmate, so so Debris was a local boy on long time local
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assignment, a reasonable situation. Also, something that did not emerge in the
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hearings was that Debris was fluent in Spanish. If to this and other things
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for which I do not now have time are added, what is in coup
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There is an explanation of why Debris, or all the agents of the FBI
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or available, was shipped to Dallas immediately to do the correlating which we now
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know with certainty was really filtering. He was an ideal man to remain in
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New Orleans for that job, and any competent agent could have done his Dallas
21:48
job. If the intent was a straight job. Debris had the special knowledge
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for filtering. I believe that had he remained in New Orleans, some of
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the really fine leads in those reports would not exist. Similar conditions do not
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exist in Dallas, where he did his job rather well considering the bulk of
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what he handled. Clay Shaw gave free space and the old International trademark to
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his CIA outfit, a Cuban one, the name of which the incompetence in
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Garrison's office never got into the trial record. It is in the grand jury
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transcripts taken from Josephine hug I think there is indefinite reference to end her trial
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testimony, which I do not have in transcript. Now. William Galdebt,
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who immediately thinkered Ruby to the New Orleans FBI, ran the Latin American reports
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as it cannot afford to run from a three room suite in the International trademark.
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Well, Debt was CIA, as was his la R. I don't
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know what that means. Shaw's explanation of why LHO picketed the International trademark was
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the presence of the Cuban consulate there. There was no Cuban consulate there,
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so his explanation makes no sense. A good old j. G. Jim
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Garrison let us stand unchallenged. I believe Lho had been told where to Piket
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bearing on this. He had numbers not listed in his book, including relating
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to this like Verne Rotman's, not at w DSU and not in Rotman's name.
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It was a half other thing, and Debreeze covered that building. He
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was also yetting from New Orleans. And I don't know the date, but
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right after my grand jury appearance, which I think was four eighteen sixty seven,
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he was in Washington and did not return to New Orleans for the duration.
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For some reason, it was decided that he was more touchy than the
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other key agents who's names did not come to mind immediately, the one who
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quote investigated Shaw, who was allowed to remain in New Orleans and as their
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privilege. So yeah, I love reading Harold Wiseberg his writings. He says,
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uh Jesse Corr was a conservative, a close friend of Clay Shaw's.
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At the time Oswald picketed the International trademark it's public relations man and Shaw was
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still its manager. He was offended that Garrison was not in touch with him
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on the Shaw case because he had been important in Garrison's campaign, and Jim
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knew that he was a friend of Shaw's. I remember that because I had
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not drunk heavily in years, and I drank him under the table, so
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to speak, figuratively, not literally. He was not in good shape when
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we parted, and I kept working. So let's see when else we got
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here. On Jesse Cool, I have to tell you so. FBI Special
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Aging Debris cor phoned him as soon as Oswald started to pick up the International
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Trademark building. I do not know if there was any special reason for it
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taking the breeze so long to get there, why he had so little interest
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with LHO and FBI case and with debris that no FBI Oswald case agent.
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But in light of this, several other items are more interest. Or must
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have told him as he told me that there were two young men picketing the
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International Trademark with Oswald, the one acknowledged to have by the FBI and commissioned
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Charles hall Steele. The third confirmed that there was another with him, a
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man he did not know. Also, the New Orleans Harbor Police copy of
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the Oswald handbill had got when he picked ticketed. The carrier Wasp, which
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was docked a short distance from the International Trademark at the Domain Street Wharf,
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had fingerprints on it that were not Oswald's. The FBI did nothing with that
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and refused to give me that identification. Garrison also did nothing about it.
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Moving debris of all New Orleans agents to Dallas seems a bit strange because in
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Dallas he sat in the office as an assistant to Gemberling, the case agent.
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Like Gemberling, Debris assembled the fat volumes of reports and forward them to
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the FBI headquarters. So why any agent without the Breeze's knowledge of Oswald in
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New Orleans was not sent to Dallas so debris to be of use in New
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Orleans is a mystery to me. It also seems strange that Oswald knew the
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correct person on the WDFU TV news staff to approached to have his picketing on
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TV, and they had that He had a non business number for him,
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Verne Rottman. It's in Lhoe's address book. There's much to his odd accepted
27:11
as suspicious in the FBI's New Land investigation, and it coincides in time with
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the breezes being detailed to Dallas. A few of these matters. Oswald did
27:22
not pick his print job up from the Jones Printing company, and the FBI
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knew it, but flogged this in its reports. When the Secret Service was
27:33
getting close in its investigation, the FBI had Secret Service headquarters call the Secret
27:38
Service off and they never learned what I did from Jones and his assistant,
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Mira's Silver, I taped it. We can only guess why what the FBI
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covered that up. As a fact, the man both Jones and Silver identified
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as the person who picked up the leaf liting pamphlet was none other than Kerry
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Thornley, I identified by photographed who had known Oswald while in the Marines.
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I've never used his name in public on this. It would be unfair even
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to a nasty like Thornley. I do not know what the breeze is being
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detailed to FBI headquarters right after my grand jury testimony had any connection with my
28:23
testimony. Times coincide, he was out of New Orleans for the duration of
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to Garrison fiasco. The Oswald file case was referred to Dallas from New Orleans
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a month before the assassination, or it was the Breezes case all the time
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Lhoe was in New Orleans. Whatever the reason or reasons may have been,
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it is inspicuous that Debris was detailed to Dallas at the time of the assassination
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investigation for a job any FBI agent could have done getting him out of New
28:56
Orleans for the key part of the investigation there. And he was also out
29:00
of New Orleans and out of Garrison's reach for the period of the Shaw case.
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And he had been the Oswald case agent, he should have known that
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Oswald was not alone in its picketing two what should have figured in any investigation.
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Other evidence relates to this too, and didn't Steals in the TV footage,
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so the FBI spoke to him alone. The other man wasn't in the
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footage, so they forgot about him. He is in the FBI records on
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the Doyle movie film and perhaps in records on John Martin's film of Minneapolis.
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I have files on both. That Shaw perjured himself in the Garrison case does
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not mean he was guilty in it. Phones This is from December fourteenth,
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thineteen sixty eight, a reinterview with Jesse Corr. Jesse Kord normally extended courtesies
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to the FBI, made possible by his trademark position, especially in connection with
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the visits of foreign personages. To this agent, he gave a clean,
30:17
unrumpled leaflets given to him by John Alice. He saved the wrinkled one he
30:23
had earlier crumpled and thrown in Oswald's face, and Lady retrieved from the gutter
30:30
for himself. It is this one of which he gave me a copy.
30:36
He is positive he did not give me the leaflets. He did not give
30:38
the leaflets to Debris, because he is confident Debris was not the first agent
30:42
to see him that this came later. I gave him copies of the FBI
30:47
reports. He also knows Debris well. After the assassination on eleven, twenty
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two sixty three, when reminded of this incident by Bill Martin later on,
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Garrison's staff corphoned the FBI to remind them of the eight sixteen sixty three incident.
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He acted like he couldn't They acted like they couldn't care less, he
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says, okay, So that whole escapade happened a week after the infamous fracas
31:22
on Canal Street with Carlos Bringer after Oswald's arrest on August ninth, So a
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week later he's back doing the same thing, this time in front of the
31:33
International Trademark. They're on Camp Street. Now, it's interesting to keep in
31:45
mind here that none of these pamphlets and temporaneously with the time Oswald was handing
31:52
them out, ever bore the address of five forty four Camps This was so
32:05
if you've ever seen a Oswald handbill with the stamped address five forty four Camp
32:09
Street, that is a Oliver Stone movie handbill. Okay, they don't.
32:22
There is no handbill that existed back then in nineteen sixty three, there was
32:27
ever stamped with that address. It was purely an Oliver Stone concoction. So
32:43
obviously this these incidents of handing out handbills. We have Oswald doing it in
32:51
front of the trademark, we have him doing it on Now Street, we
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have him doing it at the USS WASP, but you didn't have a report
33:02
of him doing it outside the Havannah Bar or as Penias Bar. And this
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was a couple of days before he got arrested, So obviously something was going
33:16
on here. And the owners of the printing company that printed the leaflets were
33:22
shown Oswald's picture and they said, no, that's not the guy that picked
33:27
them up. They were shown various other photos of different characters associated with New
33:36
Orleans, and the one that they picked out was none other than Carrie Thornley
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Carry Thornley, which is so happens just from the last show, okay,
33:53
before they hit the landfill. But Ken Thornley FBI document from November twenty second,
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nineteen sixty three, where he was in a bar drinking and was overheard
34:07
talking about his son knowing Oswald and being a very close friend of Oswald's,
34:15
having correspondence with Oswald, having recent, like real recent correspondence with Oswald.
34:23
So it's not out of the realm of possibility. And Harold Wiseberg interviewed these
34:30
people, the owner and employees of Jones Printing Company, and he got them
34:35
on audio cassette admitting that no, the person that packed these flyers up was
34:42
Carrie Thornley, not Oswald. And the FBI didn't do anything with that information,
34:51
because you know, the FBI would have interviewed the people of the Jones
34:57
Printing Company and they even said that they were of view by the FBI,
35:00
and they told him the exact same thing. Of course, the FBI didn't
35:05
show him picture of Kerry Thornley, so they couldn't identify him as Carrie Thornley,
35:09
the person who did pick up the pamphlets. But they did tell the
35:14
FBI that the person that picked up the pamphlets was not Lee Harvey Oswald,
35:20
and I'm sure they gave him a description. So but that again, that's
35:23
something that the FBI didn't do anything with or pursue. Imagine that, And
35:30
just to tie all this in a neat little bow, we have a CIA
35:34
document from September eleventh, nineteen sixty seven, referring to the Oswald case Clay
35:47
Shaw number four O two eight oh seven, eight nine to seven. According
35:55
to a Washington Star clipping dated March second, sixty seven, a Shaw,
36:00
who was arrested, indicted, and as a waiting trial in connection with the
36:02
charge that he conspired with Lee Harvey Oswald and David Ferry to assassinate President Kennedy,
36:10
was described by one Jesse Corp as a political liberal who was very admiring
36:16
of President Kennedy. According to Core, Shaw talked of voting for Kennedy in
36:22
nineteen sixty and even worried Kennedy for President button on his lapel. Jesse Corr
36:30
worked with Shaw in nineteen sixty three at the International Trademark in New Orleans.
36:36
Security indices reflected one jesse R Corps chief consul with us ice us I s
36:44
in the American Embassy in Modras, India in nineteen fifty was a friend of
36:50
redacted, former CIA overt agent who is separated from the agency in October of
36:59
fifty two following a serious security breach which involved a Missus Lillian Baxter of Calcutta,
37:07
India, who also was known to Koor. Missus Baxter, who was
37:13
believed to be an American with Indian citizenship, had formerly been married to an
37:17
Anglo Indian planter in India and was said to have become a prostitute and in
37:24
nineteen fifty one to have been kept by a wealthy Marwari. She was believed
37:31
to be controlled by Indian intelligence and it was thought that she might be an
37:36
agent for any of several governments, including England and Russia. She was an
37:42
associate of redacted and was suspected of stealing security documents from him. There is
37:50
sufficient There is insufficient information regarding jesse Kor, clay Shaw's associate to positively identify
37:58
him as Acted's friend Jesse R. Coor, but it seems quite probable that
38:05
they are one and the same person. Chor is from New Orleans, but
38:09
it would appear that his friend I'm sorry redacted as from New Orleans, and
38:14
it would appear that his friend Korp is also inasmuch as he seems in all
38:17
probability to be the husband of Missus Jesse Kor born Lucy Ruggles, who as
38:25
of nineteen fifty six was said to be married to a man in the State
38:30
Department and be somewhere overseas, and in nineteen fifty seven was said to reside
38:35
in New Orleans, Louisiana. Missus Jesse Kor was one of a suspect political
38:42
group, Dallas County Volunteers for Rainy, which was of interest to the Security
38:49
Office in fifty six to fifty seven because of the fact that Currency I employee
38:53
Michael Arles Pearson and his friend John Max Rosenfield, a former OSS man,
39:01
had been members the organization, which numbered about twenty five persons, most of
39:07
whom were said to have been former students at the University of Texas from which
39:12
Homeward T. Rainey, a former Liberal president, had been discharged, was
39:19
of a liberal radical persuasion. One member of the group in which Missus jesse
39:24
Kor then Lucy Ruggles, the daughter of William Ruggles, who was an editorial
39:30
writer on the Dallas Morning News, was particularly active and said to us been
39:36
sub subsequently been arrested by the FBI for communists and activities, and several others
39:43
have been active in communist organizations. So what the FBI didn't tell us about
39:52
jesse Kor and his wife but something that Cia knew as the day I have
40:00
been arrested for and suspected of being communists and having some kind of foreign intelligence
40:08
ties in India. Weird and wild, folks. You can't make this shit
40:15
up, I'm telling you. The next up, we have a very interesting
40:20
story about the street fracas on Now Street with Carla Springier and Oswald. And
40:30
of course this scene or incident was partially filmed by Jim Doyle and it's called
40:40
the Doyle Film, and also a fellow by the name of John T.
40:45
Martin of Minneapolis. Both of them captured snippets of what was going on in
40:52
the street, not the whole thing, of course. And let's just say
41:02
at the time John T. Martin was alone in filming, but Jim Doyle
41:09
and they were both teenagers, and they were both on vacation, the Doyles
41:15
from Oregon and Martin from Minneapolis. But at the time that he was taking
41:22
this movie on Canal Street, Jim Doyle was actually with his parents and a
41:30
friend of the family there was there was also another family on vacation with them,
41:36
and at this time they had they were split up a little bit,
41:38
like we're both dads and the sons were together, and both the moms and
41:44
the girls were together. Now they were on the same street, and the
41:47
ladies were a little bit in front of them. You know. I'm not
41:52
sure if they were just walking around sightseeing or shopping or what they were doing,
41:58
but that's kind of how the scene went. And when it comes to
42:01
the Garrison investigation, they were interested in looking at these home movies and trying
42:09
to identify people in the film that were allegedly handling Oswalt or various other characters
42:21
who may have been there, like Lawrence Howard or Dean Andrews. Dean Andrews
42:27
claimed to have seen this happened. So Tom Bethel had reached out to the
42:37
Doyles, who of course lawyered up just to preserve their own self insrews and
42:45
deal with stuff like this. And so they were dealing with somebody by the
42:57
name of Stanley our Primer who lived in Berkeley, California, and he reached
43:07
out to Tom Bethel, who was working as an investigator on the Garrison team
43:10
in nineteen sixty eight. And it says this, dear mister Bethel, when
43:15
I phoned you on her about twenty five November sixty seven, concerning the Oswald
43:20
literature scuffle, he said, you would like to obtain the movies taken by
43:23
j Pat Doyle's son, Jim Paul Hawk told me he mentioned it again to
43:29
him. So I wrote mister Doyle and then phoned him on January twenty first
43:34
and twenty seven, sixty eight. Mister Doyle is very cooperative and promised to
43:38
send the film to the address you gave him. I encouraged him to send
43:43
you the original and retain a copy for himself, but he may send the
43:47
copy. Mister Doyle stated that he gave the film to the FBI immediately after
43:52
the assassination and about two months later it was returned to him and his family
43:58
viewed the film and noticed that some of it was missing. Some of the
44:02
pictures were taken were close ups of the arresting officer which were clear enough to
44:07
observe his badge number. These and certain other views are no longer part of
44:12
the film. Now, this is a very serious allegation, but it does
44:17
not stand alone, Folks. John T. Martin of Minneapolis also claims,
44:28
but he claimed to Harold Wiseberg and researcher Gary Schooner at the time when they
44:35
were in Minneapolis giving a talk at the University in Minneapolis, and they met
44:39
John T. Martin and he getting he personally showed them his movie and made
44:45
copies for them and for Garrison. He alleged the exact same thing, that
44:53
it appears that after his film had been returned to him from the FBI,
44:58
that it had been edited, but he wasn't sure exactly what had been taken
45:02
out. He just knew something wasn't right now, Wiseberg was That's about the
45:09
same time in nineteen sixty eight, you know, May June, they were
45:14
trying to run down John T. Martin again and get him to sign an
45:20
Affidavid that he believed the FBI had edited his film. That, along with
45:27
the assertion of the Doyle family that believed that the FBI edited the film,
45:32
would have been a very powerful for Jim Garrison in his case against clay Shaw,
45:38
because that would imply that the government had tampered with evidence and they could
45:45
prove it right. Continuing with the letter, I included a copy of the
45:52
FBI report concerning him with my letter to mister Doyle. He stated that it
45:57
was correct as far as he could remember. He verified that another man was
46:00
passing out literature with Oswald. As is stated in the FBI report, Oswald
46:07
and this other man were walking down the street together and then well dressed Cubans
46:12
began approaching them in small groups. A total of eight to fourteen Cubans will
46:17
soon be rating them noisily now, folks. Officially Oswald is the only person
46:31
arrested. It was handing out leaflets, and officially three Cubans, including falls
46:39
Brane and his two buddies, were the only Cubans arrested in this fractas so,
46:46
what the hell happened here? Oswald's companion disappeared immediately as a cook off
46:59
jet and eat feet if you will, and Doyle thinks he has not shown
47:14
on the film. I asked mister Doyle to look at the film again and
47:17
try to identify Oswald's companion if possible. The film does show the sign laying
47:23
on the sidewalk that Oswald's companion had been carrying around his neck. According to
47:30
the FBI report on Doyle, the pieces of this broken sign were carried away
47:35
by police. Doyle remembered the sign carried by a brgnier and then it referred
47:40
to Cuba being in chains, only ninety miles from the United States. He
47:47
stated that the police appeared immediately after the ruck is commenced, and that he
47:52
observed no physical contact between the antagonists. Two or three excuse me. Other
48:00
people took pictures of this incident, including one tall man who took still photographs.
48:07
Now we have never seen those folks, never seen them, he says.
48:15
As far as mister Doyle knows, his film has never been shown on
48:17
TV. And he says a friend of mister Doyle's, matt O. Wilson,
48:31
was also president at the incident, and mister Doyle thought that Wilson had
48:36
not been interviewed by the FBI or anybody else. Doyle leave Wilson's address and
48:42
phone number, and also here is mister Doyle's phone number. On December twenty
48:51
eight, sixty seven, I sent the blaze Wick material you see to you
48:54
at the office I registered airmail. This material included an eleven page report of
49:00
four interviews, a twenty seven page transcript of one interview, a list of
49:06
names examined by blaze Wick, and an index. I was wondering if you
49:10
received everything in good order, Engineering Science, Inc. My employer, and
49:15
sending me to Rio de Janeiro for four or five months, beginning in February
49:20
seventh. If there's anything I can do for you while there, let me
49:23
know. I hope the Doyle film proves to be useful. I'm enclosing a
49:29
self addressed, stamped envelope for your convenience, Sincerely, Stanley Primmer, CC,
49:36
Paul Hawk, and how verb verb So. One of the things did
49:45
mister Premmer sent over to Tom Bethel and Jim Garrison by proxy was an interview
49:54
with matt O Wilson Hortond, Oregon by a telephone concerning the Oswald literature scuffle
50:01
in New Orleans on August nine, nineteen sixty three. Interviewer is Stanley Primmer
50:10
and Wilson agreed to the interview being tape recorded, and this, folks,
50:17
is the transcript. Primmer, Has anyone interviewed you about this matter? Wilson?
50:28
Well, if I remember correctly, there was some FBI people here one
50:30
time and inquired about this same matter. So the FBI did talk to you
50:36
about this, Wilson says, I don't recall. I I just can't remember
50:43
how this went. Now, now, folks, this has only been five
50:49
years, not even five years, four years. It seems hard for me
50:54
to remember. I'm pretty sure that there were some FBI people here though now
51:00
I hey, gosh, my memories poor on it. Either they were here
51:05
or somebody else talk to me about it. Seems like they questioned us about
51:08
it, but I'm not sure. Well I had not heard. I just
51:14
camera. Oh, now how that went? Yes, Well, besides from
51:19
that, if you could recall for me as best you can. Oh,
51:22
first I should tell you who I am. I'm a volunteer investigator doing this
51:25
on a part time basis, and whatever you tell me will be passed on
51:29
to the mister Garrison's office in New Orleans. If you could recall as best
51:34
you can the incident when you were in New Orleans and saw Oswald passing out
51:37
literature, and especially before the main rucket started what you observed, then if
51:44
you could tell me about that, sir. Yeah, we were there on
51:49
a convention deal. This mister Doyle, Pat Doyle was along and his wife,
51:54
and he had a boy who was using a movie camera for the first
52:00
time and making every opportunity, taking every opportunity good to get some pictures.
52:07
I recalled this all right when he had We were making down it's walking down
52:12
the street. The Doyle family was with us and my family and we noticed
52:19
this this man coming down the street with a placard around his neck. Seems
52:25
to me like there was two of them. There must have been another man
52:30
there too, but I don't remember if he had any placards with him,
52:32
If this man had something. Were they coming towards you? They were coming
52:38
towards us, Yes, they were. They were coming toward us. And
52:43
there were two men together. Yeah, there were two men involved in this
52:46
thing, but I don't remember if the other one had any plaquards on him.
52:52
But this one that I can think of, would who we thought was
53:00
was the Ozo. What's his name? Do you mean Oswald? Oswald?
53:07
Yes, I'm trying to place him Oswald. He had this platford around his
53:13
neck, and on it was inscribed something about Castro, long live Castro or
53:19
something like that. I just don't remember the wording or anything, but I
53:22
remembered it was assumed that it was Cuban related, and I know that he
53:28
referred to Chemistro on their and VALI we had no more than that. Met
53:35
him, went up. A group of other people jumped in there and started
53:38
tearing up the literature. He had this literature in his hands and he was
53:44
handing out to people as he went. No, I didn't take one of
53:46
those, and I don't recall that I took one. But did any of
53:52
your family take it? Or did mitter Doyle family? Or did he take
53:55
it? Man? I don't remember that either, if they of them took
54:00
them. I knew that I could see the man passing bills as you see
54:04
these street vendors. Due you know, some nook come along passing. I
54:09
don't always take you now, I don't remember if Doyle did, but us
54:14
Anyway, he was passing these out, and pretty soon several other people they
54:20
looked to me like they were not natives of this country. They looked to
54:25
me more like a Latino or Mexican type. Jumped him right there, and
54:32
they grabbed them, and they grabbed these poachers, and they be hip throwing
54:37
them about. And then they shoved him to the ground and they shoved him
54:39
on the ground once. Oh, they did shove him to the ground.
54:45
Yes, they shoved him down, and he was up, and he had
54:51
this funny look on his face. I looked at him while this boy was
54:53
taking pictures all the time. I can remember that face. Then when it
54:59
came around in the newspapers afterwards, I couldn't recall it. That was the
55:04
same face. I mean, it appeared like he looked like he was at
55:09
Oswald Fello. I can recall this, Yes, yeah. And then pretty
55:15
soon it wasn't only a few minutes and a police car pulled up there and
55:20
they put him in the police car and it took him away. Did they
55:23
only take Oswald away? I can't recall what happened to that other guy.
55:30
I'm sorry, I just don't remember, but I think they took two of
55:34
them. I'm just guessing at it because it's so hazy now, but I
55:37
can remember they put one of them, this Oswald, the guy that had
55:42
the literature. I knew they put him in the car if I could remember
55:46
now what happened to that other guy that was walking away him? Was it
55:52
your impression that the man walking with Oswald before the others came along, Was
55:54
it your impression that they were friends or that they were Yeah, well I
55:59
thought we were together. Yes, I thought they were in a similar cause
56:04
there or whatever it was. Was the other man passing out literature too,
56:10
I don't know. I don't think he was. I think he was just
56:14
walking with him. I don't remember that he had he could have. And
56:21
they had a large plaque or two, and I don't know what happened to
56:24
it. Somebody was carrying it, either one of them was carrying it large
56:30
plaquard with him and man, I think it was Oswald. The other man
56:35
have been carrying literature too, I just don't remember. Well, now,
56:38
this large placard is that the one that Oswald was wearing or is it a
56:43
different one? I know they had another there too, Yeah, yeah,
56:47
they had another placard. I've seen it lying on the side there in the
56:52
street. When this uh this ruckass was getting over. Wow, I've seen
56:57
this other placard by the police car, and it was inscribed with some writing
57:00
too, but that I could that I did not decipher. I don't recall
57:06
what it was. You didn't see what this other plaquard said? No,
57:13
no, I mean I did at the time, but I just don't remember
57:15
now what it said. I know it was something to do with humor and
57:19
a revolution or something. I think it was for Castro's cause, I thought
57:24
it was. And now, did you see anyone else carrying a plaquearder?
57:32
No, No, I didn't. That's um the only one that I owe.
57:37
These things happened, so it was kind of a kind of a ray
57:40
of deal too, and we didn't realize what it was all about, or
57:45
I had no idea that this was a meaningful situation or a major item or
57:51
like the killing of a president related thing. At the time, I was
57:57
more interested in this boy getting all the pictures. Yes, he was getting
58:02
action. Great. Well, you didn't notice, then, if any of
58:07
the Cubans were carrying a sign? No, no, I didn't. I
58:13
didn't notice that the Cubans to jumped he was carrying anything. And how many
58:17
would you say there were, Oh, I would judge there was at least
58:22
five or six, maybe more, But at least I've seen five or six
58:24
men in this group. The challenged demon that actually had physical contact. Yes,
58:31
yeah, they shoved him around there, but lively for a while,
58:36
and he had this real sneery look on his face. He didn't care,
58:38
He didn't seem to care what happened to him. He just had an odd
58:43
expression. You know, when you look at a guy like that, you
58:46
don't forget that look. This is what struck me. After I seen it
58:52
in the newspapers, I could identify their face. At least did you see
58:55
anyone hit Oswald? No, No, I didn't. I didn't see anybody
59:02
striking. But I know he got pushed around, and there was a lot
59:07
of Joscelyn going on in there, and if there was quite a few people
59:13
involved in there, so you couldn't tell what was going on all the time.
59:15
I mean, I was trying to make room for this boy to get
59:19
his damn pictures too, you know. Yes, yeah, I was more
59:22
interested in that than I was in the dark fight. Well, now,
59:28
how close did you get to Oswald and his companion before the other people came
59:30
along. Oh, I think we were almost abreast of him. We were
59:36
almost abreast. In fact, they walked by us before these people actually started
59:44
the melee. They were ahead of us, and I was trying to decipher
59:50
the sign, and I told him, mister Doyle, I can remember that,
59:55
says, I wonder how far that guy's going to go? And a
1:00:01
human refugee plays like this with that sign. It kind of appeared to me
1:00:08
that he was asking for trouble. Well, that could be, and that's
1:00:15
what it turned out to be. Gouble. Did you happen to overhear any
1:00:20
conversations between Oswald and his companion as they walked by you? No, No,
1:00:24
I didn't hear anything. Do you know if they were talking. I
1:00:30
don't even recall if they were talking. I can't. I just can't recall
1:00:32
that at all. I don't know. Did you get a very good look
1:00:37
at the man who's with Oswald, particularly at his face, Not that I
1:00:44
would recognize him even if I probably looked at him, but I didn't.
1:00:51
But Oswald had a different appearing face. He just like a damn oddage expression
1:00:57
that stayed in my mind. I just don't recall what the other man even
1:01:01
looked like, to be honest with him, Well, see, one thing
1:01:06
mister garrisons in interested in is the identity of this other individual. Oh and
1:01:13
well, I'm sorry, I can't help you on that. I can't recall
1:01:17
at all what he looked like. Well, let me ask you this.
1:01:22
Do you think that Jim Doyle got pictures of this man? Well? I
1:01:27
thought he did. I was I really thought he did. I'd have to,
1:01:34
I think, to my memory, I don't remember if I've seen these
1:01:37
pictures. You see, the FBI came and and and taking them away before
1:01:42
I had a can't see them. Yeah, that's right now, I remember
1:01:47
what happened. They came over. They came over and got those pictures from
1:01:53
Doyle, and I don't think I ever seen them. And after they came
1:01:58
back, Oh, it's been a long time after they came back before I
1:02:01
even inquired once if he had them back, and he said that he did,
1:02:07
but he felt that they had been but up edited. He thought something
1:02:09
had been taken out of them. But I haven't seen the pictures. I
1:02:14
never did see them. Even he mentioned to me that he thought there were
1:02:17
some scenes missing from the film. Oh, well, then you know about
1:02:22
that. That's the only thing I know about that. I remember him saying
1:02:28
that there he thought something had been deleted or cut out. I think that
1:02:34
he should have gotten a picture of both of those. Because he was busy
1:02:37
taking these pictures. He was getting good pictures. He kind of stood at
1:02:43
the side, and he was getting a good shot at it. One time
1:02:46
he said he got the back of my head in there. But outside of
1:02:50
that, he seemed to be getting some pretty good pictures. Well, now,
1:02:54
if you saw the pictures that Jim Doyle took, could you recognize the
1:02:57
man who was with Ozwater if he appears in these pictures? Hi, I
1:03:01
wonder if maybe I could, perhaps, perhaps I could. I have a
1:03:07
pretty good memory of faces. I can't remember names, but I certainly can.
1:03:10
I have a good memory of faces, and I would hope that I
1:03:14
could help you. Well, could you do this for me? Did you
1:03:19
contact mitter Doyle? See he's planning to send these pictures to New Orleans,
1:03:24
And could you contact him and either this evening or maybe the next day,
1:03:29
perhaps both of you or other members of your family can look at these pictures
1:03:32
again, because it is it it is some importance to try to identify this
1:03:38
other individual to find out who was involved with Oswald in this incident. Yes,
1:03:45
well, yes, I'll try to get a hold Pat. Yeah,
1:03:50
if you could do that, that'd be very helpful. I mean, possibly
1:03:52
see in the melee it might someone who wasn't there. Yeah, didn't pick
1:03:58
out who was actually with Oswald? Yes, yes, I could. I
1:04:02
could do that then and might be able to identify him. Mister Doyle said
1:04:09
that he didn't think this other individual appeared in the pictures, but he wasn't
1:04:15
certain, and I asked him if he would look at them again. Yes,
1:04:18
but but Doyle remembers there was another man there. Yes, he what
1:04:27
he says agrees with what you say. I see, well I could find
1:04:31
it out if he's got those pictures, and uh, if he would let
1:04:34
me see them. Now, you say the police arrived rather shortly after the
1:04:39
incident, Yes, yes, it was only a few minutes. And the
1:04:43
police would err like, oh, do you think why they arrived usually fast
1:04:49
or unusually fast? Or did the seem out of the ordinary or just normal?
1:04:57
Now, I think that at least with modern radio cars, they could
1:05:00
have been somewhere in the area. Put them in a dispatch there in that
1:05:04
time maybe so. I remember, right somebody, somebody there started the hell
1:05:12
out for the police. And there was a store right there. I think
1:05:15
it was a clothing store right in there, right opposite where this thing was
1:05:19
a taking place. They made a call from there for the police. Somebody
1:05:25
was calling for the police, and I don't know who they were. They
1:05:29
were the bystanders or some of these people. I knew they called the police,
1:05:32
and it was only a very short time when the police car, squad
1:05:38
car showed up there. They hustled him in. They hustled him into the
1:05:42
squad car. I think it was Oswald. I can't remember the other man.
1:05:48
What happened to him. I just don't remember what what where he disappeared,
1:05:54
But I assume that he was in the car. You think the other
1:05:59
man was in the car? Are well? I just kind of think that
1:06:01
he went into that same car if they put him in there. But I
1:06:04
couldn't swear on it, because I I can't remember. I didn't hey much
1:06:10
attention to it or didn't give a darn. Now, if you saw a
1:06:15
group of photographs of different individuals, do you think you would recognize this other
1:06:19
individual if his picture was in this group of photographs. I just wonder I
1:06:26
wouldn't know if I could. I'd like to take a trap at it.
1:06:29
Like I said, I have a pretty fair memory for faces. Uh,
1:06:33
well, yeah, but I don't know for sure. Mister Garrison's investigator who
1:06:40
has been working on this particular angle is named Tom Bethel. And now if
1:06:44
he would send you copies of the pictures, would you look at him.
1:06:46
Yeah, yeah, I'll take a look at him and see if I can.
1:06:50
Yeah. Fine, I'll pass that information to him. Yes, yes,
1:06:56
I'll try to take a look at it. Good. Now, is
1:07:00
there anything else you could tell me about what happened? I think you've got
1:07:04
about the whole story right there. I can't recall anything that would be of
1:07:11
any profit to you. I'm not sure anything else happened there. It boils
1:07:15
down to that. I see, did you see Oswald passing out literature before
1:07:21
the Cubans came along? Yeah? Yeah, he was passing out some literature
1:07:28
out. Yeah, that's right, at least as I can remember, before
1:07:31
you met him. Then he was passing well, I could see him coming
1:07:35
down the street. Now we're walking not too far from the intersection, but
1:07:43
far enough so we can see this man I coming toward us a passing literature,
1:07:47
and somebody was walking with him. I'm telling you, and several people
1:07:54
I'm sure took some of these, but I don't think we took any of
1:07:58
these. I just don't remember, and I don't usually take letters you're handed
1:08:02
out on the street. But I did read that sign on his chest,
1:08:08
well, I could understand of it. There was a rudely being signed,
1:08:13
hard to read, but I did read that he was favoring the Castro regime.
1:08:17
And I made the remark to mister Doyle, I said, I wonder
1:08:21
how far that guy's gonna get in this town with that on his chest.
1:08:27
I know that Miami was Harvard quite a lot of refugees from Cuba Quan,
1:08:33
and I felt that this man's that this wasn't the place to be flaunt in
1:08:38
it, and it wasn't no more than hardly got by us when these people
1:08:43
jumped him, and I said to Pat, I said, well, here's
1:08:45
trouble. What the heck was going on? This boy started taking pictures and
1:08:49
we got busy trying to trying to get him to pictures. Well, did
1:08:54
you notice if anyone else was taking pictures of the incident? I didn't.
1:08:59
I didn't notice anybody with a camera in there. I don't know if anybody
1:09:02
else with a camera in there. No, I didn't see anybody else.
1:09:08
When the Cubans came up, they were in small groups, or did all
1:09:11
of them come together. It seemed like they all converged pretty much together.
1:09:15
And where they came from even surprised me. It was almost like the materialized
1:09:21
right in front of our eyes. I didn't even notice where they came from.
1:09:27
They must have been standing right there by the edge or the buildings from
1:09:30
the sidewall, just those building fronts, because I was just mystified where they
1:09:36
came from. But there apparently was at least five or six more of them
1:09:41
in that group, and they were highly agitated. Immediately. There was a
1:09:45
little noise in talking, and some of the talking was in a foreign tongue,
1:09:49
but I didn't understand it. I say, I think most of them
1:09:55
were speaking in a foreign tongue because I didn't understand or get any of it
1:10:00
what they were trying to tell him. No, I didn't get any of
1:10:04
the conversation. I don't think any of us did because we were just dumbfounded
1:10:09
what was going on. I couldn't understand anything. Well, all right,
1:10:14
thank you very much for your help, mister Wilson. If you think of
1:10:18
anything else of importance, if you would contact mister Doyle, because he's planning
1:10:25
to contact mister Bethel. Okay, and if he could both you and your
1:10:30
family too. Perhaps I understand you have a son that was there too.
1:10:33
Yes, you might talk with them and see if they can remember anything else
1:10:39
about it. I will, particularly if they think they would recognize the individual
1:10:44
with Oswald. Yes, yes, and likewise with Jim Doyle, mister Doyle's
1:10:48
son nine, sir, okay, very good, thank you, and thank
1:10:54
you very much. Good night and good night, did you do, sir?
1:11:03
So there you have it, folks, eyewitness allegations of more than one
1:11:16
person being with Oswald in the street fight, and more than just carlos Bringer
1:11:26
on the Cuban side of things, being in the street fight. But in
1:11:30
the end we are left with and arrested Oswald, a not arrested Cuban contingent,
1:11:40
and films from different angles both alleged to be edited by the FBI before
1:11:50
they were returned to them. So was in fact someone will Oswald that day?
1:12:01
And was that someone possibly edited out of the footage of said movies.
1:12:11
Apparently, well well, well, wouldn't it be something if there was some
1:12:16
stand anyway, that's it four, episode number two hundred and forty five of
1:12:24
the Loon Dumbing Podcast. Follow along on x on TikTok on Instagram at the
1:12:31
lone Gumming seven. On YouTube, search for the Loon Drumming channel the loon
1:12:39
Gumming podcast channel. Make sure to like and subscribe and share and feel free
1:12:45
to comment. Be a troll, come join the fun. This has been
1:12:53
another pleasure. This one's in the bag. Evened up this satellite down directly
1:12:59
to your ears. People, This is your boy, triple be big bad
1:13:04
vibe carner along with you, peace everyone, the biggest that you chamcain.
1:14:05
Yet they do him boy waiting all was so wild, the trouble run become
1:14:29
the trouble, the pain I do with all and made my simple song.
1:14:38
Don't be one tell you he bel have to tell you the big thing that
1:15:04
you champain. Wait, tige wait, situation of my rain from me a
1:15:26
can of him. We caught him head and he fell down and back head
1:15:30
of his card. One was on his head and the candy card on on
1:15:35
down the biggest b that Ultam Kid. Yeah, they ain't the way more
1:16:12
away. I'm aware alway, so fucking enough twas he as answered the mind