Latest / I Don't Know You / How Writing Everyday Without Fail Shaped Kyle Rutkin's Creative Patience

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How Writing Everyday Without Fail Shaped Kyle Rutkin's Creative Patience · I Don't Know You

0:04
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Matt.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm a Jesus follower,
0:06
SPEAKER_00: husband,
0:07
SPEAKER_00: father,
0:07
SPEAKER_00: son,
0:08
SPEAKER_00: and friend who is super curious about topics like parenthood,
0:11
SPEAKER_00: creativity,
0:12
SPEAKER_00: and the tension between ambition and contentment,
0:14
SPEAKER_00: all while living in the distraction of the 21st century.
0:17
These conversations serve as a way for me to hear from people I
0:20
deeply respect on
0:22
SPEAKER_00: topics that I'm still learning about.
0:24
Can you give me 10 seconds of your time to ask if you could
0:28
share,
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follow,
0:29
and review?
0:29
It would be a great help to make these conversations more
0:32
discoverable for
0:33
SPEAKER_00: like-minded creatives.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: My goal is to continue to make these as best as I can and bring relevant
0:39
SPEAKER_00: conversations to you that you'll find interesting.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: It seriously means so much to me.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Today, I'm joined by Kyle Rutkin.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Kyle is a writer, a marketer, a husband, and a father.
0:50
He's a friend that I've met through a creative cohort we're a
0:53
part of together.
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He's someone who takes creativity seriously,
0:56
not just as output,
0:57
but as a responsibility.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: I have so many questions.
1:04
SPEAKER_03: Is there like a theme or anything specifically you want to talk about?
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think, I mean, I think it's a lot of what we talk about.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is great.
1:13
What we talk a lot about in like our creative hangout is like a
1:18
lot of it.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: I am also,
1:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:20
SPEAKER_00: the main reason for these conversations is like,
1:23
I want to talk to people that are like just starting out in
1:27
like the parenting and
1:28
SPEAKER_00: then also farther along in the parenting.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: And specifically like from a Christian background.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: I'll definitely talk to like whoever, but my goal is like figuring out
1:40
where can i see people doing this kind of like creative
1:44
ambition but also wrestling
1:47
with like parenting and kids and marriage and like trying to do
1:52
those all of those
1:53
things well which is like such a balancing act and so i don't
1:57
know at least from
1:58
like when i talked to david when i talked to i mean a few
2:00
conversations you and i
2:01
have had and it's like it's a lot yeah it's overwhelming for
2:05
sure life in general
2:06
SPEAKER_00: is a lot i think yeah but
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, when you're balancing all these things.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: And so a big piece of that for me is just like,
2:14
SPEAKER_00: I selfishly want to have these recordings so I can look back at them.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I'm a big journaler.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And so like so much of my time is spent
2:25
like remembering and reflecting on because i'll usually write
2:30
for the past day and
2:31
then i'll usually look back the app that i use it's called day
2:34
one okay um it has
2:35
like a feature that basically shows you all the journals from
2:39
that day in the
2:40
previous years that's really cool so uh it's really awesome and
2:44
and so now before i
2:46
was using that i was using real journals and so every once in a
2:50
while i'll flip
2:50
SPEAKER_00: through those and kind of see what's going on but um
2:54
SPEAKER_00: It's like time capsules of where you were.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like such an unlock.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: I feel like most people live life not like as and it's a lot of work.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: Like it takes a lot of time.
3:05
I don't know how long I've spent,
3:08
but at least hundreds of hours writing throughout the last
3:13
10 years yeah and then like even before that writing a lot of
3:18
my thoughts down in
3:18
random places like before i really had a system for it yeah how
3:22
are your journal
3:23
SPEAKER_03: entries before kids and after kids have you like has the app kind of
3:27
SPEAKER_00: going through that?
3:28
Well,
3:28
I think like how I've defined journaling has like changed over
3:33
time.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm such a like audio visual learner.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that I really like about,
3:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
3:40
SPEAKER_00: at some point,
3:41
SPEAKER_00: I think day one should sponsor this,
3:44
SPEAKER_00: these conversations because I talk about them so much.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: One of the features I love is like, it's just like voice memo.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: So you can just record
3:54
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times if I'm driving up to work,
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I'll just be like,
4:01
I'm thinking about this idea and I'm really wrestling with it
4:04
and I have no idea
4:05
SPEAKER_00: how to solve this problem.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: And there it is.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: And then you just have it in that time capsule idea.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: have they integrated ai yet where it's like they so they have all of the
4:16
capabilities of doing that they're like synthesizing thoughts
4:20
and bringing yeah
4:21
this is one of the things that i love about the company uh
4:24
they're now owned by a
4:25
bigger company called automation i think um it's spelled weird
4:29
like every app ever
4:31
SPEAKER_00: um
4:32
SPEAKER_00: But they work as an incubated company within that bigger company.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: And so they have the resources of that company,
4:40
SPEAKER_00: but they still have the autonomy to kind of do what they want.
4:44
I thought about working there because I was like,
4:46
I just love this product so much.
4:47
yeah did you reach out i i did that once i reached out to a
4:51
company i just loved
4:52
and i think i did i've done that yeah i've done that with a
4:55
couple come like
4:56
Substack is another one yeah where i'm like and they're too big
5:00
now like yeah i'm
5:02
less interested in them now because they're too big but and i'd
5:04
have to like move
5:05
SPEAKER_00: to san francisco or whatever yeah for sure um but
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
5:09
SPEAKER_00: I think with with day one,
5:11
SPEAKER_00: they do have all the capabilities,
5:12
SPEAKER_00: but they're really careful about how they use AI in their platform,
5:17
SPEAKER_00: which is really cool.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: So you can like turn on in your settings, but it's default.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Everything's like off.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:23
And so you can turn on to basically Apple made a journaling app
5:28
like a couple of years ago.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I've seen it.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: They prompt me all the time.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: Reflect on the three pictures you took yesterday or whatever.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: And so
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they basically took a lot of those apis and uh built them out
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more how you would
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like actually use them in real everyday life right um and so
5:48
that that's that
5:49
capability is there um but i've been doing it so long i have my
5:53
own rhythms yeah
5:55
yeah so there's different types of journaling that i do where
5:58
it's like bullet
5:59
point just like this thing happened yeah and it's cool because
6:02
you can have
6:03
SPEAKER_00: different kind of journals so i have one for like prayer i have one for
6:09
kind of events and that's just like this thing happened today
6:12
and this is what I
6:13
thought about it and then I have like a writing one where I put
6:16
all of like my
6:17
ideas for posts and like more formal writing ideas that I have
6:23
and stuff so yeah
6:25
SPEAKER_00: it's been cool to kind of catalog that I mean
6:28
SPEAKER_00: They have a lot of my data now.
6:31
Thankfully,
6:33
I've looked through their privacy policy,
6:35
their terms and conditions,
6:37
and I like it.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: Because you can export everything and then delete everything.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, at this point, it's a trust game with all these companies.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just think of big tech in general, where it's like,
6:49
SPEAKER_00: How much are you actually?
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
6:51
If I knew in 2009 when I was on Facebook that they were just
6:55
like documenting all that stuff.
6:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:57
SPEAKER_03: I would be.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like a very different.
7:01
world now oh my gosh yeah actually my second book was called
7:04
life told from the
7:05
cloud and it was like seven profiles and it followed the story
7:09
of one protagonist
7:10
as he's going through his life but it's using um messages from
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facebook photos wall
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posts and it's kind of like piecing his life together into one
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i know it's so
7:20
SPEAKER_03: that's awesome it's pretty fun because it actually was inspired by like
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had a relationship in college and i like one day looked back i
7:27
was like it was all
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there like all the messages from her like all the wall posts
7:32
yeah all the parties
7:33
and events we were at oh i remember like the first i don't know
7:36
if you can even
7:37
call it girlfriend but like the first crush that i had in like
7:40
eighth grade that
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SPEAKER_00: was like the main way that we talked was like through
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like uh facebook messenger well it wasn't messenger at the time
7:48
and then like and
7:49
then in our like friends uh private yeah that we had i think
7:53
everybody was very
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sick all recorded for you and just see to feel like the
7:57
nostalgia of that moment of
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SPEAKER_00: you having a crush yeah you know it's so wild yeah i know it's
8:02
we also like journaled back and forth a lot that summer too
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which was because we
8:07
like didn't have phones and we couldn't so it was like we went
8:10
back in time like
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writing letters to each other in a digital and then i threw
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them out like what was
8:14
i doing oh you don't have any of that no yeah oh my gosh which
8:18
was i think like
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SPEAKER_00: after we were like whatever our relationship was uh
8:24
i was just like so over it that i threw everything out in a day
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and i was just like
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the emo dramatic thing in the rom-com where you put it into the
8:31
trash on his
8:32
definitely yes the very very skinny jeans yeah yeah i think
8:39
thankfully i skipped
8:40
out on the haircut but everything else yeah everything else was
8:43
to it oh man yeah
8:45
SPEAKER_03: there's no greater uh inspiration for creativity than heartbreak
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's one of my questions.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: I feel like you write from a place like you,
8:56
SPEAKER_00: a lot of your,
8:57
SPEAKER_00: and I still need to like read your books,
8:59
SPEAKER_00: but at least from what we've talked about,
9:00
like you write from a lot of the heartbreak and loss and like a
9:04
lot of these dark
9:05
SPEAKER_00: themes.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: But like, it's always in the vehicle of like redemption at the end of it.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like how did you like start
9:16
SPEAKER_00: finding that thread when you first started writing.
9:20
Yeah,
9:20
I mean,
9:20
I wasn't intending to write psychological thrillers,
9:23
that's for sure.
9:23
SPEAKER_03: I think it was one of those,
9:25
SPEAKER_03: one day I was writing and the voice was like,
9:27
SPEAKER_03: it just came out on the blank page.
9:29
SPEAKER_03: It was like really dark and gritty.
9:31
SPEAKER_03: And I was like,
9:32
SPEAKER_03: my first instinct was to like shut the computer down and just like,
9:35
SPEAKER_03: oh,
9:36
SPEAKER_03: that's strange.
9:36
Like I wanted to write lighthearted rom-coms,
9:40
like just fun stuff,
9:41
lighthearted stuff.
9:43
and then i was reading what's up uh war of art stephen
9:46
pressfield he's like the
9:46
thing the thing you're most scared to do is probably the thing
9:49
you should be doing
9:50
you know um and also yeah i just kind of was in on my own faith
9:55
journey at the time
9:56
SPEAKER_03: just kind of newly um going to church and i just felt like
10:00
SPEAKER_03: all right, God, I'm going to trust you in this.
10:01
And I just kept showing up to the blank page and obviously
10:05
connecting the dots.
10:06
SPEAKER_03: Now it was a radical journey of healing and transformation for me.
10:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:09
And I was kind of writing my protagonist to go on that journey
10:13
and give me a
10:13
SPEAKER_03: roadmap to a journal of some sort.
10:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:16
fiction is my is the same thing it's like my you know for
10:19
non-fiction people
10:20
writing to heal totally that's what fiction was for me it was
10:23
just my way of like
10:24
processing everything in my past that i hadn't yet it was all
10:28
coming to the surface
10:29
through creativity and then i was able like you said the
10:32
redemptive arc the the the
10:34
end the come to jesus moment was my own moment of like
10:37
reckoning where i had to
10:38
like face myself and the things i was running from and yeah it
10:41
was kind of it was
10:42
SPEAKER_03: awesome
10:43
And now,
10:44
like in the,
10:45
because you,
10:46
have you written seven or eight novels?
10:49
SPEAKER_03: So I wrote one, I wrote in two rom-coms.
10:51
SPEAKER_03: So those are the heartbreak ones.
10:53
SPEAKER_03: This is your heart and love.
10:55
SPEAKER_03: Out of control.
10:56
SPEAKER_03: And Life Toil from the Cloud.
10:57
SPEAKER_03: Those are my rom-coms.
10:58
SPEAKER_03: I had wrote a middle grade fiction book.
10:59
SPEAKER_03: So kind of like a King Arthur, Harry Potter book.
11:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I read them like girls now.
11:04
SPEAKER_03: It's been fun.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that sounds like a trip.
11:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a trip.
11:08
SPEAKER_03: It's a trip.
11:09
SPEAKER_03: And when they're not into it, it breaks my heart.
11:12
SPEAKER_00: Dad, get to the fun part.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: That's the story I hear from like every...
11:17
kind of any creator that's like producing something their kids
11:21
are like never into
11:22
it they're like okay take it easy like I love listening to uh
11:26
Conan's podcast yeah
11:27
yeah and he's always just talking about it my kids could like
11:30
care less about like
11:32
anything that they're they're working on I heard Amy Poehler
11:35
talk about Parks and
11:36
Rec she's like my kids won't watch anything like I was like
11:38
which is kind of nice
11:39
if my mom was Amy Poehler and I'd be like that's you know I'd
11:41
be yeah yeah
11:42
SPEAKER_03: But your mom is your mom.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Right, it's your mom.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: It's your mom.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: So they don't say like that.
11:46
SPEAKER_03: And then four psychological thrillers.
11:49
SPEAKER_03: And then I have two more that I'm trying to publish now.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: I just saw this morning that you,
11:55
SPEAKER_00: when you published your substack,
11:56
SPEAKER_00: that like you had finished the next one.
11:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I had two that I was writing simultaneously.
12:01
So that's why I'm talking about two books because I'm like
12:04
literally would finish a
12:06
SPEAKER_03: draft of one,
12:06
SPEAKER_03: then go to the draft of the other.
12:08
SPEAKER_03: And they were really like aligning,
12:09
SPEAKER_03: like my second draft,
12:10
SPEAKER_03: second draft,
12:10
SPEAKER_03: third draft,
12:11
SPEAKER_03: third draft,
12:11
SPEAKER_03: fourth draft,
12:11
SPEAKER_03: fourth draft.
12:12
To the editor,
12:13
to the editor,
12:14
return from the editor,
12:15
return from the editor.
12:16
SPEAKER_03: Now I have like two books.
12:17
SPEAKER_03: Two different editors.
12:19
SPEAKER_03: Same editor.
12:19
SPEAKER_03: She does all my books.
12:21
SPEAKER_03: But she was just, I hired her to do two books.
12:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:24
SPEAKER_03: And so the contract was,
12:25
SPEAKER_03: so I was just playing with,
12:26
SPEAKER_03: like,
12:26
SPEAKER_03: I'd send her one and then write the other one.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: So you'd,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
12:31
SPEAKER_00: work on one,
12:32
SPEAKER_00: you'd finish up the draft,
12:33
SPEAKER_00: and then you'd send it to her,
12:34
SPEAKER_00: and then you'd start on the other one.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: You're not, like, splitting time between the two.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: That sounds like...
12:42
SPEAKER_03: And then I can, I can't, I can't do two.
12:44
SPEAKER_03: That sounds wild to be able to.
12:46
SPEAKER_03: I can never toggle even Substack fiction.
12:48
It's hard to toggle because like,
12:49
honestly,
12:50
my heart is way more into the fiction.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: And so when I go to substack,
12:53
SPEAKER_03: sometimes I'm like,
12:54
SPEAKER_03: oh my gosh,
12:55
SPEAKER_03: I don't have the energy to do a post this week.
12:57
SPEAKER_03: And I've been struggling with that.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel that.
13:01
SPEAKER_03: I kind of committed to that.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're touching on so many of the questions that I already have.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: But that was one question that I was thinking through.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: I think in this latest Substact,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: you were basically talking about the pressurization of how you...
13:18
need you you feel as a creative in this context yeah it's like
13:23
how do you uh create
13:26
as much as possible how do you like use ai to your advantage to
13:29
like create all the
13:31
time posting every day and like confusing like good marketing
13:36
for like good writing
13:38
SPEAKER_00: i think a lot of the time yeah
13:40
SPEAKER_00: And I was so curious,
13:41
SPEAKER_00: like I resonate with that a ton,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: but it's like how,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
13:46
SPEAKER_00: what has your journey been to like come to,
13:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
13:50
SPEAKER_00: what seeds are you planting now?
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Because you were talking about the idea of,
13:55
SPEAKER_00: this is a very long way to get to the question,
13:56
SPEAKER_00: but you were talking about the idea of like good creative takes time,
14:01
SPEAKER_00: which like I think like a lot of young people
14:04
uh aren't realizing that now they just think of creativity as
14:08
like well how many
14:09
times can i post a story on on instagram which is like i think
14:14
there's creativity
14:15
in that but it's a very different type of creativity than like
14:19
uh someone going
14:20
away or like the consistency yeah of like stephen king or
14:24
something yeah yeah yeah
14:25
and like he he's a maybe a bad example because he publishes so
14:29
much yeah he's
14:30
SPEAKER_00: pretty prolific
14:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:31
SPEAKER_03: But I know what you're saying.
14:32
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this like beastification of YouTube and all this.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: I do love Mr. Beast.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: I mean, he's great.
14:38
SPEAKER_03: But his outcome is like to be the biggest and the best.
14:41
It's not like necessarily like I want to produce a great piece
14:43
of art that's going
14:44
SPEAKER_03: to move people.
14:44
SPEAKER_03: It's more like how do I grow this into the big.
14:47
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what most of culture right now is feeling this like.
14:51
SPEAKER_03: what you're talking about, the pressure of like for outcome.
14:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:54
SPEAKER_03: Like I want I want a million likes.
14:56
SPEAKER_03: I want I want all the things.
14:58
SPEAKER_03: I want the results.
14:59
SPEAKER_03: I want the fame.
15:00
SPEAKER_03: I want the recognition.
15:01
SPEAKER_03: I want to be a creator that people respect.
15:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
15:03
And not necessarily like the deep level work that good
15:05
creativity requires.
15:07
And and also that's why I think there's so much in the post I
15:09
was saying there's so
15:10
SPEAKER_03: much noise and A.I.
15:11
SPEAKER_03: is
15:12
everybody feels this pressure because people now can prompt
15:15
like write me a book
15:16
and there you go there's your book write me get make me a video
15:19
here's a video but
15:21
like it doesn't mean you have anything to say you haven't done
15:23
any of the work the
15:25
soul level work deep work to like find out what is actually
15:28
trying to be expressed
15:29
yeah yeah i know i'm reading have you read deep work um
15:33
california yeah i listened
15:35
SPEAKER_03: to his podcast i haven't actually like finished deep work okay
15:38
SPEAKER_00: I haven't read that deep work either.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: I've read like his Digital Minimalism book, which is really good.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm reading It's So Good That They Can't Ignore You right now.
15:49
And it's it's that idea of basically like I think a lot of
15:52
people want to follow
15:54
SPEAKER_00: their passion in life or whatever.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's like his argument is basically like, well,
15:59
get really good at something like become a craftsman instead of
16:03
like a passionate
16:04
person yeah um who dabbles in it a little bit yeah and so it's
16:08
like it's that idea
16:09
i think like that you were talking about this morning um do you
16:13
schedule your posts
16:15
no i wrote that one this morning nice let's go okay yeah i was
16:18
honestly thinking
16:19
SPEAKER_03: about skipping a week and i was like
16:22
if i skip a week that's a slippery slope you know that like all
16:25
of a sudden then
16:25
you know six months later i'm back yeah yeah yeah yeah because
16:29
i just didn't have
16:30
anything in the can this week and i was just like i was
16:33
procrastinating well it
16:34
spoke to me and even if it's just that one so it felt like i
16:38
had something and so
16:40
like yeah yeah i have a lot of drafts in there okay things i
16:43
started sick okay
16:44
SPEAKER_03: And so,
16:44
SPEAKER_03: like,
16:44
SPEAKER_03: once in a while,
16:45
SPEAKER_03: I'll just go in and,
16:45
SPEAKER_03: like,
16:46
SPEAKER_03: okay,
16:46
SPEAKER_03: there was an idea there that I'm resonating with at this moment.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Ideas are never the problem for me.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:52
It's always just,
16:52
like,
16:53
do I have the work ethic to,
16:55
like,
16:56
see it through a little bit?
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes,
16:59
if I am really excited about an idea and I don't see it through
17:02
in that moment,
17:02
SPEAKER_00: then I,
17:03
SPEAKER_00: like,
17:03
SPEAKER_00: forget about it.
17:04
SPEAKER_03: Oh, 100%.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:05
SPEAKER_03: But to your point,
17:06
SPEAKER_03: I think,
17:06
SPEAKER_03: like,
17:07
SPEAKER_03: there's going to be so much noise,
17:09
SPEAKER_03: and I think that's why,
17:10
SPEAKER_03: like,
17:12
SPEAKER_03: Something that's truly special.
17:14
I think that's what the only thing left will rise to the
17:16
surface is like something
17:17
that actually took somebody maybe years to make something that
17:21
they took the time
17:22
SPEAKER_03: to actually find out what it is that's special about this piece of art.
17:26
SPEAKER_03: And so I really do feel like in this,
17:28
like everything's going to be at the surface and the deep stuff
17:31
will be something
17:32
SPEAKER_03: people hope
17:32
with gravitation that's my hope are there are there like
17:36
creative seeds that you're
17:37
planting now that you want to like water over the coming years
17:41
for lack of a better
17:42
analogy yeah yeah i think i honestly have just what you're
17:47
talking about parenting
17:48
SPEAKER_03: and like all the things like our energy is so dwindled down to like
17:53
what can you actually do instead of like i the other post it
17:57
was the go daddy
17:58
poster all these business ideas i wanted to start and all this
18:00
creative energy and
18:01
projects but i think i just want to produce the best possible
18:05
book yeah possible
18:07
yeah and so planting seeds is like i don't i don't really care
18:11
how long it takes
18:12
you know even if this one i think is done and when i go to
18:14
publish like it needs a
18:15
little six months more to like work on yeah i think i should
18:18
take it because i just
18:19
SPEAKER_03: i think
18:21
SPEAKER_03: there's going to be,
18:22
SPEAKER_03: again,
18:23
SPEAKER_03: so much going on that if you just focus on the thing that you get at,
18:27
SPEAKER_03: you know?
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like so much of the time,
18:32
SPEAKER_00: at least as a young parent,
18:35
it's like I'm now starting to have this other concept of time
18:40
that I didn't have
18:40
SPEAKER_00: before where it was like,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: man,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: I had so much time to do literally anything I wanted to.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: And now it's like five minutes here, 30 minutes there.
18:49
It's like that those seeds that you're talking about where it's
18:53
just like,
18:53
SPEAKER_00: no,
18:54
SPEAKER_00: I want to be like a competent writer and build something great,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: like.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: I think that sounds really easy on the surface.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: And then it's just like practically what does that look like?
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that's like an amazing goal to have.
19:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think.
19:11
Again,
19:11
it's like when you didn't have kids,
19:13
you had all the time in the world.
19:14
SPEAKER_03: It feels like we wasted almost like in a sense where we're just like,
19:18
SPEAKER_03: oh,
19:18
SPEAKER_03: I can watch two hours of TV with my wife at night.
19:21
SPEAKER_03: I can.
19:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:22
And now,
19:23
again,
19:23
I think it's like,
19:24
what are the things that actually matter?
19:26
SPEAKER_03: As we get older and like know ourselves more,
19:28
SPEAKER_03: I think we're able to focus on the stuff that calls to us more.
19:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:34
like oh that is a great idea i love that idea but i know myself
19:38
now and i know that
19:39
that is going to be a honeymoon phase idea where i'm going to
19:42
get super excited
19:43
about it i'm going to create the logo i'm going to make the
19:45
website and then i will
19:47
abandon it yeah yeah so it's like you just got to sell those to
19:49
other people i know
19:51
i wish i could sell those domains i put them up for sale i have
19:54
no offers yeah okay
19:55
SPEAKER_03: okay yeah i i just so i do think it's like
19:59
what is your natural curiosities and mine is writing and i know
20:02
that's like my best
20:03
contribution it feels like right now and so that's all i know
20:06
is this is my best
20:07
contribution right now i'm just going to keep doing the thing
20:10
you know yeah i was
20:12
reading i think it was one of your articles uh i don't remember
20:15
exactly when it was
20:16
but you were talking about this idea of like uh kind of the the
20:20
responsibility of
20:22
SPEAKER_00: creativity yeah um
20:24
and i think you were also talking about it like in our creative
20:26
hangout um and i
20:28
was curious like was there a moment that kind of switched from
20:31
like oh this is like
20:32
fun to do and then like the switch over to like oh i have a
20:37
responsibility to like
20:38
follow through with my creative skills yeah that's good i think
20:43
yeah when you do
20:45
something for so long like obviously i've been writing for 15
20:48
years it's like
20:50
SPEAKER_03: it's almost like it's not even a choice anymore.
20:52
SPEAKER_03: Like I do feel like,
20:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
20:54
SPEAKER_03: if I got paid by the hour for writing,
20:56
SPEAKER_03: it would probably be,
20:57
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
20:57
SPEAKER_03: probably the same way,
20:58
SPEAKER_03: what,
20:58
SPEAKER_03: 0.001 cents per hour.
21:01
Like no matter how many books I sell,
21:03
the amount of hours I spent writing will far outweigh.
21:07
The only person that's like maybe making good on that is like
21:11
JK Rowling or something.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Once you hit it, yeah.
21:14
SPEAKER_03: So I think withholding,
21:15
SPEAKER_03: if you withhold your gifts,
21:16
SPEAKER_03: that's what I say when there's resistance in somebody who's like,
21:19
oh i think it's good it's not i don't know like they're really
21:22
scared to release
21:23
something i feel like you are withholding a possibility for
21:26
that idea not only to
21:28
spread and maybe change your life but to change someone else's
21:30
life so that's where
21:31
the responsibility comes in like you owe it to that yourself
21:35
but also to the
21:36
recipient the person who's going to view your art or read your
21:38
book like that's
21:39
selfish to withhold it so when you have that internal
21:42
resistance where it's like
21:44
yeah but like if you're being called to do this if you're being
21:47
a steward of your
21:48
gifts you're you have to release it yeah well i can speak as a
21:52
recipient of like
21:54
your gift even just in the articles that you write that you're
21:57
like man i should do
21:58
something this week yeah where it's like it's resonating with
22:00
me because of the
22:01
season that i'm in yeah um and thinking about like where where
22:06
i want to go and
22:06
SPEAKER_00: where i want to be because i think in a lot of ways like
22:09
uh as as challenging as it sounds like this season like with
22:13
just managing a
22:14
business and managing family like as challenging as it is like
22:17
there's many aspects
22:19
of what it sounds like you're going through that i like want to
22:22
be like at your age
22:25
SPEAKER_00: and stage in life and we're i mean we're not too different right i think
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
22:31
It's cool and inspiring to kind of see like even that idea of
22:34
the responsibility of
22:36
SPEAKER_00: creativity,
22:36
SPEAKER_00: like the pay it forward mentality of like
22:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how,
22:41
SPEAKER_00: like even before,
22:43
SPEAKER_00: cause you didn't always like have your own business that you were doing.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, like how did that come along?
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And then like,
22:50
SPEAKER_00: how did you juggle that kind of like,
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I have this creative responsibility,
22:54
but also like this desire to build my own thing and like do
22:59
that on the side,
23:00
SPEAKER_00: but then sort of like build that into its own,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: That's a very loaded question.
23:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
23:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
23:06
short answer is I learned how to do digital marketing because I
23:10
was marketing my
23:11
SPEAKER_03: books.
23:11
SPEAKER_03: So as an author, you're responsible for marketing.
23:15
SPEAKER_03: So I was like, oh, I'll learn Facebook ads and I'll learn Amazon ads.
23:18
SPEAKER_03: So that slowly but surely my skill set in that field got better.
23:22
SPEAKER_03: For a long time, I built the side marketing business.
23:27
SPEAKER_03: It was compartmentalized from my actual creativity.
23:31
SPEAKER_03: So it was kind of like, this is how I make money.
23:32
SPEAKER_03: This is what I want to do for a living.
23:34
SPEAKER_03: This is my passion.
23:35
SPEAKER_03: This is my day job.
23:36
As I got older,
23:37
I realized it's better to infuse these two,
23:41
your passion and your day job.
23:43
SPEAKER_03: I just feel like I bring more to the table when they're together.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Well,
23:47
SPEAKER_00: that's like a unique,
23:49
I feel like that answer is probably different for everybody
23:51
where it's like,
23:53
SPEAKER_00: I want to separate it.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:54
I want a compartment versus like,
23:56
I have to believe in the thing that I'm doing.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: And I'm more so that way personally.
24:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:01
SPEAKER_03: It's hard.
24:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:01
SPEAKER_03: I'm, I wear my heart on my sleeve.
24:03
SPEAKER_03: Like I don't want to like,
24:04
work at a job that i don't believe in and i've done those jobs
24:06
and instantly i can
24:08
feel the tension the knot in your stomach when you go to work
24:10
every day so yeah so
24:13
i wanted to get clients that i could do storytelling which is
24:15
what i do with
24:16
fiction but then use it for the brands that i work with you
24:19
know and it doesn't
24:19
always align like there are some jobs where i'm like oh i'm
24:22
taking this paycheck
24:23
and just not feel creatively totally like i'm you know yes well
24:27
you are yeah you're
24:28
you gotta put food on the table right yeah it's hard i think
24:31
that's the hardest
24:32
SPEAKER_03: part i'm in this season it's like
24:34
SPEAKER_03: And I think you were talking about this too,
24:35
SPEAKER_03: like how much risk can you take when the stakes feel really high?
24:39
SPEAKER_03: Like when you have kids, you have a mortgage, like you just have...
24:44
in southern california like here's what we need to make yes and
24:47
so i have all these
24:47
things i want to do and it's like you know i have another
24:50
friend who's just like
24:52
quit his job is jumping at it he has kids he has a family yeah
24:56
and you know there's
24:57
some part of me that's like jealous of him like totally what
24:59
would it be like just
25:00
to like quit and just like leave all my clients and just go all
25:03
in at this one
25:04
SPEAKER_03: thing um that would be writing for you
25:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
25:08
SPEAKER_03: it would be writing for me,
25:09
SPEAKER_03: but I also think,
25:10
SPEAKER_03: and I've,
25:11
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
25:11
that it's really important for me is like I've done the burn
25:15
the ships thing where
25:17
SPEAKER_03: I've quit a job.
25:18
SPEAKER_03: I've done this before in my, I would say late 20s, I think.
25:21
SPEAKER_03: I quit my job to go all in on writing and it didn't work out very well.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think it was- And you had a lot less at stake.
25:28
SPEAKER_03: A lot less at stake.
25:29
SPEAKER_03: And also the book wasn't that good.
25:31
SPEAKER_03: It probably didn't deserve New York Times bestseller status.
25:35
But I also think the patience of a creator and the creative is
25:39
really important
25:40
SPEAKER_03: because if you can't make it to the next one,
25:43
i do think one day your vision and your craft and what the
25:46
consumer like it will
25:47
all align like yeah they'll you'll be able to get paid for the
25:51
craft yeah but if
25:52
you don't make it to that point you'll never get paid so you
25:55
have to stay in the
25:55
game and just stay in the game you need money yeah and so you
25:59
have to you know the
26:00
much is it the romanticity or the romance of like quitting and
26:04
following your
26:05
dreams is great i think it's a really balance of like how do
26:08
you maybe start small
26:10
SPEAKER_03: yeah
26:11
SPEAKER_03: prove to God that you're,
26:13
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:13
ready to do this and can handle the responsibility and then get
26:17
to the point where
26:17
SPEAKER_03: it's like,
26:18
SPEAKER_03: okay,
26:18
SPEAKER_03: I'm actually,
26:19
SPEAKER_03: I have clients I have,
26:21
SPEAKER_03: or I have book sales or,
26:22
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:23
SPEAKER_03: and then you go for it.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, it seems like, yeah, it's like,
26:27
all the successful people that I know that have done some
26:30
version of this,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: most of their stories are like,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: I did like this little contract thing.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: And then I did this little retainer thing.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: And then I, and I was also managing like my day job.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And then I did like two
26:45
uh retainer things and i was also and it's like the tension of
26:50
like how close can
26:51
you get to burnout yeah basically and then like how safe can
26:56
you get to like well
26:58
it's always going to be risky to like jump ship yeah but like
27:01
at what point is the
27:02
least amount of risk yeah or it's like day job is is like
27:06
actually holding me back
27:07
now from like more clients that i could get yeah um how did you
27:12
negotiate that like
27:13
SPEAKER_00: season
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have it written down better, but where is it?
27:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like, what did that season cost you?
27:25
SPEAKER_00: I guess.
27:28
what the season of like the season of like kind of finding the
27:32
balance of like i
27:33
had a day job okay and then i was doing this stuff on the side
27:38
okay and then i was
27:38
doing more stuff on the side and i was also like being married
27:43
and i was like i i
27:44
don't know if you had kids at that point or you were thinking
27:46
about having like
27:47
SPEAKER_00: yeah
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:49
I would say the pandemic was probably my hardest one because I
27:53
clients were leaving
27:54
SPEAKER_03: because they were just like dropping me.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: So the business was built at this point.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: I had like I was had like three retainers and two of them dropped.
28:04
I believe during that time,
28:05
right when I had my first kid,
28:06
it was the pandemic.
28:08
the writing was like kind of like just the um i had my book
28:12
optioned that kind of
28:14
was when the pandemic happened like the movie stuff kind of
28:16
just got flatlined as
28:18
well yeah it was a really hard season for sure and then also
28:21
balancing like how do
28:22
i get that back how do i get this back um and then just being a
28:26
new father i mean
28:27
there was a lot of sleepless nights during that yeah that point
28:30
for sure um
28:33
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I would say, how did I navigate that?
28:36
SPEAKER_03: That's really good.
28:37
SPEAKER_03: Honestly, it was a surrender posture for sure.
28:40
SPEAKER_03: And honestly,
28:42
SPEAKER_03: that was showing up to the blank page,
28:45
showing up to that creative practice that I have was probably
28:48
my act of surrender
28:50
SPEAKER_03: to God,
28:50
SPEAKER_03: which is like,
28:50
SPEAKER_03: hey,
28:51
SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to keep showing up if you show me a path.
28:53
SPEAKER_03: And I think slowly but surely,
28:55
SPEAKER_03: You know, I felt myself coming into fatherhood more.
28:57
I felt like the creative energy was back flowing and the
29:01
clients kind of slowly
29:02
SPEAKER_03: came back to as like,
29:04
SPEAKER_03: I think it was just,
29:05
SPEAKER_03: it was a really rough season.
29:06
I can't lie there,
29:08
but I also knew I needed community and I showed up back up at
29:12
field work.
29:13
And then I started talking to Jeff and then two more clients
29:16
came from that.
29:16
SPEAKER_03: And that kind of like opened it up again.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: So I think I...
29:19
SPEAKER_00: And of course you maybe saw that coming,
29:22
SPEAKER_00: but more than likely you didn't know that stuff was going to happen.
29:25
SPEAKER_03: No, no.
29:27
And I think I just knew I needed people around me and I needed
29:30
like trusted people.
29:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was very, I haven't revisited that moment in a long time.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for, I appreciate you being so much.
29:38
SPEAKER_03: It was hard, it was really hard.
29:40
SPEAKER_03: You know, becoming a new dad is just a disorienting experience.
29:43
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Well,
29:44
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
29:45
SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: I can imagine,
29:47
SPEAKER_00: but I don't think I understand the reality of like the mom side of it.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:52
But even from a new dad perspective where it's just like
29:55
everything is new and it's
29:57
SPEAKER_00: also like,
29:58
SPEAKER_00: cool,
29:58
SPEAKER_00: like the roller coaster has started,
30:00
SPEAKER_00: like lock in.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: you don't have a ton of time to react to things.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: It's just like,
30:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to figure this out,
30:07
SPEAKER_00: but I have to because I have,
30:09
SPEAKER_00: or I'm going to die trying,
30:11
SPEAKER_00: I guess.
30:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:12
And I don't know about you and like your father figures and
30:14
what other examples
30:15
SPEAKER_03: like,
30:15
SPEAKER_03: but I felt like I was in some ways like,
30:17
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
30:17
SPEAKER_03: just navigating a new,
30:19
SPEAKER_03: a new thing.
30:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:21
SPEAKER_03: And it was just, it's a lot.
30:23
SPEAKER_03: It's overwhelming for sure.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:25
SPEAKER_03: To your point, just like when you have, you know,
30:28
SPEAKER_03: so many different buckets you want to put energy into.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:32
SPEAKER_03: Um,
30:32
SPEAKER_03: I would say I,
30:33
the best thing I could do and what I'm kind of recurring theme
30:37
here is to show up
30:38
SPEAKER_03: to the one thing you can do,
30:39
SPEAKER_03: which was like one,
30:41
SPEAKER_03: my writing to my being a father,
30:44
SPEAKER_03: just showing up,
30:44
SPEAKER_03: just being present with them.
30:46
SPEAKER_03: And then community,
30:47
SPEAKER_03: which was the church,
30:48
SPEAKER_03: just like,
30:49
SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to show up and see what happens.
30:51
SPEAKER_03: And all showing up to those three things gave me life,
30:54
SPEAKER_03: you know,
30:54
SPEAKER_03: and gave me my income back and my,
30:58
SPEAKER_03: you know,
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: I feel like,
31:01
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
31:02
SPEAKER_00: this question kind of segues into what we've been talking about,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: but the idea of like fighting for those dreams of like being a good dad,
31:09
SPEAKER_00: being a good writer,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: being in community.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Well,
31:12
SPEAKER_00: like during that season,
31:13
was there something that you were like fighting against
31:17
internally that was like,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: challenging to kind of weigh like,
31:21
SPEAKER_00: oh,
31:21
SPEAKER_00: should I go back and like get the corporate job because I like can't?
31:24
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
31:25
SPEAKER_03: I applied to jobs for sure then.
31:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:27
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that was when imposter syndrome, like what was I thinking?
31:30
SPEAKER_03: Like thinking I could start this like, you know, business.
31:32
SPEAKER_03: So fighting against imposter syndrome.
31:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:34
Being an entrepreneur,
31:36
like having all these clients,
31:37
like look what happened.
31:38
SPEAKER_03: I just lost them all, you know?
31:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I was battling that for sure.
31:44
SPEAKER_03: So I was slowly like applying and seeing what was out there.
31:47
SPEAKER_03: But at the same time,
31:48
SPEAKER_03: like,
31:49
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
31:50
I think I know my worth and I know my gifts and I just like
31:54
knew if I stayed strong
31:57
SPEAKER_03: and stayed committed to those,
31:58
SPEAKER_03: I think I just slowly got my confidence back.
32:00
SPEAKER_03: No, I didn't.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:02
SPEAKER_03: No, again, I'm going back there mentally and I'm like, whoa.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Like you inherently gut knew those things to be true.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: But maybe only in hindsight you've been like, oh, actually I did.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: I had that piece of it figured out.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't know what I had figured out during that time.
32:21
It was definitely like,
32:23
yeah,
32:23
because it was the pandemic and I was a father.
32:26
SPEAKER_03: So I really thought the world was crumbling and falling down.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
32:30
SPEAKER_00: you were like,
32:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what life will look like for anybody in the world,
32:33
SPEAKER_00: like in a year or whatever.
32:35
right right and i just remember i do remember financially just
32:37
being like oh my
32:38
gosh because the money wasn't coming in like kind of dried up
32:42
yeah and we just you
32:43
know the expenses of a new kid just like piled up and so i was
32:47
like at one point i
32:48
was like oh my gosh are we going to be using our credit cards
32:50
yeah yeah well and
32:52
the the wife wasn't working because she was just she was
32:55
figuring out how to be
32:57
SPEAKER_03: right she was in it too yeah not working yeah and so
33:02
I think again,
33:03
like coming out,
33:04
not siloing and just like coming out into the community.
33:07
SPEAKER_03: And that's where I was like, oh yeah, they recognize, they know who I am.
33:10
SPEAKER_03: I'm doubting myself.
33:12
SPEAKER_03: So they were like, dude, you would be perfect for this client.
33:15
SPEAKER_03: Here you go.
33:16
SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, you'd be perfect for this client.
33:17
SPEAKER_03: Here you go.
33:17
SPEAKER_03: It was like a no brainer.
33:19
SPEAKER_03: But if I hadn't come out,
33:20
SPEAKER_03: I don't think they would even remember like,
33:22
SPEAKER_03: oh yeah,
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Kyle would be perfect for that.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: Like asking for help.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: It was asking for help without like, without doing that.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:32
SPEAKER_03: Showing up and saying like,
33:33
SPEAKER_03: oh man,
33:34
SPEAKER_03: I did probably mention like,
33:35
SPEAKER_03: Hey,
33:35
SPEAKER_03: I just,
33:36
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
33:36
SPEAKER_03: I lost one of my clients.
33:37
SPEAKER_03: Wasn't sure I came back if they're going to come back.
33:39
SPEAKER_03: And he's like, oh, you lot, that's great.
33:40
SPEAKER_03: You have time.
33:41
And then of course,
33:42
then the client came back after they stopped freaking out.
33:44
SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh, oh yeah, we probably shouldn't laid off our staff.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: Can you come back immediately?
33:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:49
SPEAKER_03: Well, well, well.
33:52
SPEAKER_03: I was like, you know what?
33:53
SPEAKER_03: Let me think about it.
33:54
SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
33:55
SPEAKER_03: It's pretty funny.
33:56
SPEAKER_03: I'll come back with it.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm good and ready.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was kind of a good moment.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Like managing,
34:03
SPEAKER_00: this is switching topics a little bit,
34:05
SPEAKER_00: but I'm so curious because I don't know,
34:08
SPEAKER_00: this seems like such a huge part of being like an entrepreneur is like,
34:12
work is your life in a very different way than like clock in
34:16
clock out mentality.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Like how does that work with like your guys' marriage?
34:21
Like,
34:22
and obviously that's,
34:23
that's,
34:24
uh,
34:24
that's also the parenting stuff too,
34:26
where it's like,
34:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because I do want to be home at 5.
34:30
SPEAKER_03: I try really hard to do that and be home for dinner.
34:34
SPEAKER_03: It's a trade-off.
34:35
So me and my wife,
34:38
I get my morning writing sessions in and she gets her workout
34:42
sessions in.
34:42
SPEAKER_03: So it's like,
34:44
what is the thing you most care about and what's the thing I
34:47
most care about right
34:47
SPEAKER_03: now?
34:47
SPEAKER_03: That's like your guys' creative time.
34:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:49
exactly so she's a personal trainer and a fitness coach so she
34:52
like programs and
34:53
she works out and so she that's her dude yeah that's crazy she
34:57
has her own business
34:58
doing that too and then man she's building that right now so
35:02
it's a super exciting
35:03
time for her so she's just got her first couple clients that's
35:05
really cool i bet
35:06
you give her a sweet discount on the branding and i know she's
35:10
not ready to go full
35:11
on she's just networking but she's ready to brand if i would
35:14
love to start a gym
35:15
SPEAKER_03: with her one day that'd be so much fun
35:16
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that'll totally happen.
35:17
SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Um,
35:19
SPEAKER_03: but yeah,
35:19
SPEAKER_03: with the,
35:21
SPEAKER_03: with the kids stuff,
35:21
SPEAKER_03: it's like,
35:22
SPEAKER_03: how do I integrate that into the creativity?
35:24
SPEAKER_03: Like,
35:24
SPEAKER_03: I think that's,
35:26
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:26
SPEAKER_03: with the letters I wrote to Kaya,
35:28
SPEAKER_03: that was kind of part of it too.
35:29
SPEAKER_03: Just like, how do I like,
35:31
do the thing that i'm really passionate about how do i
35:33
integrate my kids into and
35:34
teaching her storytelling and things like that um but yeah
35:38
balance balance is hard
35:40
the the part i find most difficult is that switching off the
35:44
brain um whether that
35:45
is a book i'm writing or just like 900 clients who are just
35:48
like so upset or just
35:50
like yeah i to come home and leave it at the door and so that's
35:53
that check-in
35:54
SPEAKER_03: period where you park yeah and you're like all right
35:56
i'm leaving everything behind in this that's what that is for
35:59
you i try but you
36:00
know it's it's not easier said than done as soon as i get in
36:03
and like yeah my wife
36:04
will be like hey snap out of it like yeah you're here so she's
36:08
she's keeping you
36:09
accountable in that too and she she gets it because you guys
36:11
have been together for
36:12
SPEAKER_00: a long time yeah exactly yeah do you guys work out together
36:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: That sounds intense.
36:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's intense.
36:19
SPEAKER_03: She's hardcore.
36:20
SPEAKER_03: She's pretty buff.
36:22
SPEAKER_03: Like, when I work out with her, she'll, like, look in my way.
36:25
SPEAKER_03: She's like, really?
36:25
SPEAKER_03: That's all you're doing?
36:28
SPEAKER_03: And she also does sculpt yoga, and I take her classes.
36:30
SPEAKER_03: Dang.
36:30
SPEAKER_03: So she teaches that, and, like, she's just, like...
36:34
SPEAKER_03: And right away she'd be like,
36:35
SPEAKER_03: my husband's in the front row,
36:37
SPEAKER_03: so if he's not performing up to my standards,
36:41
SPEAKER_03: you can all watch and boo him if you want.
36:43
I remember when Shelby and I first started dating,
36:45
we did a lot of yoga together.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: There was a free yoga class at the park near our house.
36:51
and i was like this is such a joke this is gonna be so easy it
36:55
was like oh this is
36:56
like really tough and i'm really bad at this and she's amazing
37:00
at it oh my gosh i
37:01
love watching like the big guys come in there with like weights
37:04
because uh yoga
37:05
sculpt has weights in it and it's hot and these guys are just
37:09
on their knees in
37:10
like 20 minutes just like like leaving the room it's an hour
37:14
class yeah oh and it's
37:15
like it's it's like 90 degrees in there or something oh yeah
37:19
100 sometimes yeah
37:21
SPEAKER_03: There's some sculpt teachers that'll just crank up the heat.
37:24
I've had times where my eyes like dark in the corners and my
37:28
head is like pulsing.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: That's called dehydration.
37:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's called dehydration.
37:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she loves it.
37:33
SPEAKER_03: Dang.
37:34
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I think it's like there's a lot of trade-offs.
37:36
SPEAKER_03: I think as the kids get older and probably this is encouragement to you.
37:41
you just get more and more margin back like you know they're in
37:44
school now yeah
37:46
like yeah so so when i come home i used to come home and go
37:49
what do i need let's go
37:50
yeah yeah yeah and now it's like almost the cortisol levels can
37:53
like recede a
37:54
little bit i feel like my cortisol levels are steadily rising
37:58
they are i feel like
37:59
you're at a tough age right how old's your kid almost two okay
38:03
yeah that's tough
38:04
because you're just always on them so your wife is also when
38:06
she's with totally
38:08
always on so when you get home it's like dude i need a break
38:10
yeah like i am so
38:12
overstimulated that's how i feel where it's just like i'm i'm
38:14
like you're tagging
38:15
me in and i'm home yes and you come home like dude i've also
38:19
just been like on high
38:19
alert working and just like dealing with all this stuff it gets
38:23
so much easier when
38:24
they are in school when she when your wife has more margin to
38:28
like take care of
38:28
SPEAKER_03: herself yeah then you can come home and be more just like
38:33
yeah less like all hands on deck like adrenaline and more just
38:37
like let's have a
38:38
nice night i know as a family well i mean still crazy yeah yeah
38:42
yeah well i think
38:44
it's like that's the uh i don't know i think the thing that i
38:47
come back to is like
38:49
SPEAKER_00: the world works in seasons and like
38:52
so do we on some level and it's like how do I how do I like
38:57
live into the season
38:58
that I'm in and then realize like it's a season yeah where it's
39:01
like when you first
39:02
become a dad I don't know how it was for you but for me I was
39:05
like will they ever
39:06
sleep like yeah I am this is like insane yeah your new reality
39:11
becomes like how do
39:12
I get any sleep yeah like I just I just want to sleep through
39:16
the night like and I
39:17
forgot about all that and we're pregnant again we're gonna have
39:19
another kid
39:20
SPEAKER_00: congrats I didn't know
39:22
another another girl so two girls that's another reason why i
39:25
want to talk to you
39:26
yeah that's awesome um and so get ready oh my gosh and so i'm
39:32
slowly remembering
39:33
although like they're not it's not traumatic but it's no no but
39:37
it's it's like all
39:38
the really challenging stuff that it's good that you're not far
39:41
enough where you
39:42
you can still remember yeah like i know she's just getting out
39:44
of diapers now
39:46
SPEAKER_03: So you're still got the diaper pail.
39:47
SPEAKER_03: You still have a stroller.
39:48
Like we literally took our stroller the other day and like
39:51
threw it in the garbage.
39:52
SPEAKER_03: And it was like one of the most satisfying moments,
39:55
SPEAKER_03: you know,
39:56
in the diaper pail that obviously by the time you're done from
39:58
the trenches,
39:59
SPEAKER_03: you're like,
39:59
SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to put that on Facebook marketplace.
40:01
SPEAKER_03: I remember holding them up the last one and just like, it's over.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
40:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: You had like a date in time that you were like, this is the last one.
40:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:11
SPEAKER_03: Well, the stroller was like, it looked like from Mad Max at the time.
40:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:14
it was like spikes everywhere my grandparents were like
40:17
embarrassed because there
40:18
was a hole in it giant hole because we were like i'm not gonna
40:21
we're gonna ride
40:21
this to the wheels totally and they did fall off and then we
40:25
threw it out together
40:26
it was pretty fun oh that's what you gotta do i feel like yeah
40:29
but yeah i think i
40:30
have if i'm looking at the seasons like during the time where
40:34
there was no sleep i
40:35
mean my writing was just like whatever i can get in at whatever
40:38
moment but there
40:39
SPEAKER_00: was consistency there
40:40
always consistency i just truly believe in that creative
40:43
practice of like if you
40:44
show up something will come yeah and if you do that faithfully
40:48
like over a long
40:49
period of time you'll have a body of work you'll have a craft
40:52
you'll have skill
40:53
sets you know like things you can use in your day job like yeah
40:56
i'm seeing that
40:57
even now like random people are starting to like articles that
41:03
i posted like a year
41:05
SPEAKER_03: or two years ago and it's like
41:07
it's yeah your consistency with stuff that has been awesome
41:10
well i think i took a
41:12
page out of your book where it was just like the the creative
41:14
ritual that you kind
41:15
of built and sustained for so long is definitely inspiring
41:19
where it's just like man
41:21
even that idea that you were just talking about like whatever
41:24
it is show up yeah
41:25
SPEAKER_00: and and just like
41:26
Because that's my time too in the morning where it's like I
41:29
wake up at five,
41:30
I do my devotions for a little bit and then I have some time to
41:33
just like think.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:36
I mean,
41:37
like there's so many different versions,
41:38
like morning pages or whatever.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Like there's a million different ways to do that.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:42
there's no right or wrong way yeah um but even like getting
41:46
back to i feel like my
41:48
most prolific time as a writer was when i was in like fifth
41:50
grade like i didn't
41:52
have anything to do so i just like woke up super early and
41:55
would write for like
41:56
hours before school and that's like where a lot of my like
42:00
sci-fi fantasy like
42:02
SPEAKER_00: novel ideas came out do you have one you're working on
42:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
42:05
SPEAKER_00: not currently,
42:06
SPEAKER_00: but I have,
42:07
SPEAKER_00: I have like a world that very,
42:09
SPEAKER_00: very inspired by like Tolkien and Lewis and like,
42:14
SPEAKER_00: I want to do something with that at some point,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: um,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: where it's just like,
42:18
SPEAKER_00: yeah.
42:18
And so I,
42:19
I just wrote a ton when I was in,
42:22
in like fifth and sixth grade and it was awesome.
42:25
Um,
42:25
and that kind of sparked the idea of like,
42:27
Oh,
42:27
like this is the time nobody's awake.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: I can, I can like have this protected time to, uh,
42:33
SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like that's really,
42:35
SPEAKER_00: and the consistency part is just like that waivers from season to season.
42:40
But then you look back at all of the history of what you've
42:43
created and you're
42:44
SPEAKER_00: like,
42:44
SPEAKER_00: oh,
42:44
SPEAKER_00: actually,
42:45
SPEAKER_00: this is totally worth the investment.
42:47
SPEAKER_03: Honestly, sometimes I'll even write five minutes.
42:49
SPEAKER_03: Like if I had a bad night's sleep,
42:50
if I can write five minutes and move the story along by like a
42:53
millimeter,
42:54
SPEAKER_03: I will have succeeded.
42:56
SPEAKER_03: Because we overestimate how much we can do in a day,
42:59
SPEAKER_03: but we underestimate how much we can do in a year.
43:01
SPEAKER_03: It's just true.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
43:03
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
43:03
SPEAKER_00: that is like such a true,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
43:06
SPEAKER_00: where it's like,
43:07
SPEAKER_00: I got into running a couple years ago and basically did a marathon,
43:15
SPEAKER_00: but like the way that you train for a marathon is not by like,
43:18
going and running a half marathon like one day and then doing
43:21
the marathon it's
43:21
like building consistency over time otherwise it'll kill you so
43:26
it's like well that
43:27
goes back to your original point of like i feel like this next
43:29
generation of
43:30
creators of like wanting things to happen now like i want i
43:34
want it now i think
43:34
that's always been a thing but also with ai it's the promise
43:37
they say is like you
43:39
can prompt and have it now but without the process without the
43:42
journey without the
43:42
SPEAKER_03: soul giving yeah yeah yeah
43:44
experience enriching of like you like all those faithful times
43:47
you showed up that
43:47
wasn't just for output that was for you yeah yeah yeah well and
43:51
even building
43:51
faithfulness like i think like you miss that whole entire
43:57
lesson right with just
43:58
SPEAKER_00: like i want a really cool
44:01
martin scorsese shot of like this mobster guy like whatever it
44:05
is and then it's
44:06
like cool i have that cool output right um but i didn't have to
44:10
like work for
44:11
understanding the lighting techniques yeah and like the camera
44:14
will you have a
44:15
point of view at that point yeah like will you have any like
44:17
what's the expression
44:18
of the art even is it just like oh i made something cool that i
44:21
think might get
44:21
likes or is it going to be like oh this is like me burying my
44:25
soul and how i see
44:25
the world and i want others to experience that too so can they
44:28
have emotional
44:29
SPEAKER_03: reaction like yeah will that happen i don't know
44:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:33
I'm really worried because I can see myself even like the
44:36
ambition part of myself
44:37
SPEAKER_03: of like,
44:38
SPEAKER_03: oh,
44:38
SPEAKER_03: how do I make it faster?
44:40
I can write all these book ideas and maybe I can just like
44:42
knock them out and like
44:43
SPEAKER_03: take more swings because when you think about it,
44:46
SPEAKER_03: like it takes me a year to produce a book and like,
44:49
SPEAKER_03: man,
44:49
SPEAKER_03: if I could produce six,
44:50
I would have more opportunities than maybe,
44:52
oh,
44:52
that is resonating with an audience.
44:54
SPEAKER_03: Maybe I need to go into that more.
44:56
But I wouldn't take what it gave me,
44:59
the actual emotional importance of the journey.
45:03
SPEAKER_03: I would never take that back.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: It gave me so much.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: It's different for,
45:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
45:09
SPEAKER_00: when I think about ghostwriting as the real-life version of using an AI.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: like some business leader that's like, I wrote this book.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: No, you didn't.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: Like a ghost writer wrote it for you.
45:22
SPEAKER_03: And you were just like, I didn't even write that book.
45:23
SPEAKER_03: Do you know that?
45:24
SPEAKER_00: I believe it.
45:25
SPEAKER_03: I was like creative act.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
45:27
SPEAKER_03: It was such a huge book.
45:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:30
SPEAKER_03: It was a Neil Strauss or something.
45:31
SPEAKER_03: That makes a ton of sense.
45:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
45:33
maybe that's why i didn't like it yeah i was just so shocked i
45:35
said i was like oh
45:36
that kind of makes sense like you say because he's more of a
45:38
tastemaker and he like
45:39
is into ai and stuff but yeah totally well and that's it's hard
45:43
because you can't
45:44
throw the like clearly a genius on some level like putting
45:48
ideas together and being
45:49
in the room and producing stuff and but i think it's like yeah
45:53
what did he miss out
45:55
SPEAKER_00: on in the writing process and i think what's cool
45:59
About your story and the way that like the writing is the thing
46:03
that you love doing.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
46:04
SPEAKER_00: like it's it's sometimes as a love-hate relationship Yeah,
46:07
SPEAKER_03: but I would do it even yeah,
46:09
and I think that's like I don't know that's the this book that
46:12
I'm reading so good.
46:13
They can't ignore you like one of the things that he talks
46:16
about from like a
46:17
craftsman perspective is just being able to have like rare and
46:22
exceptional skills
46:24
SPEAKER_00: and like
46:26
the the writing like the fact that you've put in the decades of
46:29
work into that
46:30
thing yeah like that will obviously have some like producing
46:37
value yeah but it will
46:38
SPEAKER_00: also like
46:40
have a ton of value intangibly in a ton of different ways that
46:44
you can't like,
46:45
SPEAKER_00: that are hard to like quantify.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
46:48
if you took a pill and got all your muscles versus like what it
46:51
would take,
46:51
SPEAKER_03: the habits you have to build,
46:52
SPEAKER_03: the strength in your muscles,
46:53
SPEAKER_03: the routines,
46:55
SPEAKER_03: you have that for life.
46:56
like so you know what it takes to in order to get a strong body
47:00
versus if like i
47:00
took one pill or one shot or whatever and i just got it over
47:03
now you would not
47:04
appreciate or develop the skill set in order to get that in any
47:08
area of your life
47:09
you know whether that's prayer whether it's like you know yeah
47:11
and i feel like
47:12
SPEAKER_00: that's the there's probably throughout history
47:17
SPEAKER_00: there's been that cycle of repeating of people like,
47:20
SPEAKER_00: oh,
47:20
SPEAKER_00: now we can add faster because we have an abacus or whatever.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Right, totally.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: When is tech bad or when is it just like supplement?
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Well,
47:30
and there's always cool innovations that come along and then
47:33
how do you use them as
47:34
SPEAKER_00: a tool to further your own creative ideas.
47:38
SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure Cal Newport even probably doesn't say AI is bad.
47:43
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure he's saying it's neutral.
47:44
SPEAKER_03: I think it's what we're talking about to the point of like,
47:48
why are you using it like go deeper go deeper into like what is
47:52
the motive behind
47:53
it like are you using it for outcome for fame for money for
47:57
like or are you using
47:58
it because you actually have something inside of you and that's
48:01
going to help get
48:02
SPEAKER_03: it out yeah i don't know yeah
48:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:04
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm struggling because the book world is so anti-AI.
48:08
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
48:08
It is like kind of cancel culture if you get caught using AI
48:12
for book covers for
48:14
SPEAKER_03: like your book in general.
48:15
SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
48:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:17
SPEAKER_03: So I think it's just like I have this like I can't use AI.
48:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:21
SPEAKER_03: But then it's everywhere.
48:23
SPEAKER_03: And it's like embedded into Microsoft.
48:25
SPEAKER_03: And it's like just sitting there.
48:27
SPEAKER_03: And for work, I have to use it.
48:28
SPEAKER_03: But for writing so far, I just haven't been able to cross over.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, and there's something to being a purist.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: that's always...
48:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure when film photographers saw the rise of digital photography,
48:42
SPEAKER_00: they're like,
48:42
SPEAKER_00: well,
48:42
SPEAKER_00: that's really lame.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Because now you can take a thousand pictures.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: It's like cheating.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: And that's how it feels with writers.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: They're like, that's cheating.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, and good writers don't need it.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: And bad writers...
48:55
SPEAKER_00: will never be good writers if they use it.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like an interesting,
49:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
49:01
a film photographer understands how to take a picture in a very
49:04
different way than
49:07
SPEAKER_00: like a digital photographer does when they first pick it up.
49:10
SPEAKER_03: Because, yeah, I do think that's important for the next generation.
49:13
SPEAKER_03: Like, if Martin Scorsese uses AI, it's going to be very powerful.
49:16
But if,
49:16
like,
49:17
somebody who just shows up thinks they can prompt and get their
49:19
way.
49:20
SPEAKER_03: Just, like, everything easy, like, there's always a catch.
49:23
SPEAKER_03: Like, when you think, like, oh, that's easy.
49:25
SPEAKER_03: I'll just do this and make a million dollars.
49:26
Or those gurus who promise,
49:27
like,
49:28
these,
49:28
you know,
49:29
solopreneur million dollars.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's my whole Instagram feed is just, like, yeah.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: I was making $150K a month at my agency,
49:37
SPEAKER_00: and this one thing changed everything,
49:39
SPEAKER_00: and I started making three times that amount.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: And it tapped into your fear, just like, oh, that sounds great.
49:45
And it's like,
49:45
I need to buy your $2,000 course with all that money I don't
49:49
have.
49:49
Because you're obviously taking this video in front of a
49:51
mansion with a Bentley.
49:52
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
49:53
even though they're also AI exactly so yeah I mean it's just so
49:58
tempting not to do
49:59
the hard yeah hard road of committing to something and being
50:03
faithful to something
50:03
and I think we're alike and we think creativity is a spiritual
50:06
act in so many ways
50:07
SPEAKER_03: and so I'd
50:09
SPEAKER_03: Like what we get from it is so much, it's not tangible.
50:12
SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, it's so much more enriching to our lives.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: There are tangible outputs, but I get what you're saying.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
50:18
SPEAKER_03: But just like the soul level care that it provides you.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Well,
50:22
and it's funny to think about like the podcasts that I like
50:25
listening to that are
50:26
SPEAKER_00: sort of like writing.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we like the same podcast.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: I think we probably do.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
50:30
Like I feel like every time you say it,
50:31
I'm like,
50:31
oh yeah,
50:32
you listen to that too.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm such a fan of Colin and Samir.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it would be so fun to like work with them on something someday.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
50:39
love the way that they have a good newsletter i yeah i think
50:43
it's like the new
50:45
thankfully the newsletters that i have in general like i read
50:48
every single one so
50:49
it's like i'm subscribed so if you subscribe you mean it yeah
50:53
because i i have a
50:54
lot of subscriptions i need to go totally totally and that's
50:57
its own they you just
50:58
need to use clod code or whatever to make a little thing to
51:02
like yeah be like no i
51:03
SPEAKER_00: don't want that anymore or whatever yeah that's good
51:06
but yeah i feel like them and then those there's they're much
51:11
more on like the
51:12
media side and the they're not as self-helpy but like people
51:16
like stephen bartlett
51:17
and like yeah where it's like right in the line between like
51:21
therapist and like
51:22
yeah and you never know what kind of guests you'll get like
51:24
sometimes it's like
51:26
SPEAKER_03: Anthony Robbins,
51:26
SPEAKER_03: and the next thing you know,
51:27
SPEAKER_03: he's talking to like an age,
51:29
SPEAKER_03: like a longevity guy.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
51:30
SPEAKER_03: And it's just like whoever has a book coming out.
51:33
Yeah,
51:33
and you hear the shtick on one podcast,
51:35
and you hear it on like six.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: Ryan Holiday has a new book.
51:38
SPEAKER_03: There's Ryan Holiday on the Tim Ferriss podcast.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
51:42
i've never gotten into tim ferris i probably need to listen to
51:45
some more of him but
51:46
i he's i think you would like him he's very curious and like
51:49
yourself he's like
51:50
super curious about things yeah he digs deep and he asks he's
51:53
really good at
51:54
interviewing and so his questions are just like well that's the
51:56
thing that i'm
51:57
trying to figure i mean this is super this is a fun experiment
52:01
for me because i've
52:02
always loved conversation but then how do you like guide it and
52:05
have an agenda and
52:06
SPEAKER_00: kind of get to where you want to go right without yeah
52:09
SPEAKER_03: Making it natural without feeling like you're too far.
52:12
Where it's like even now,
52:13
like as you're answering,
52:14
I'm like,
52:15
questions that I have.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: But even going back to like, I feel like I loved our AI tangent.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: But even talking about like fatherhood and the kids,
52:27
like how do you think like having kids and being a father has
52:31
like changed the
52:32
SPEAKER_00: stakes for writing for you?
52:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
52:38
yeah i think again because writing is deeper than me like i
52:42
feel like i'm becoming
52:43
a better person because of it and so i feel like it's almost
52:48
like in a sense of
52:48
like i'm i'm doing the work necessary in order to break cycles
52:54
of whether that's
52:55
SPEAKER_03: generational trauma whether that's just like
52:58
me just being a more attentive dad like things like that like
53:01
i'm working all that
53:02
out on the blank page so i can show up to them in a better way
53:04
so i think in that
53:06
sense like being a father makes the stakes of creativity higher
53:10
because i want to
53:11
SPEAKER_03: uh do the work that makes me a better person you know there's like that
53:15
SPEAKER_00: responsibility piece but now there's the added level of like yeah
53:19
uh being a being a dad in that but also them to see me chasing
53:24
and pursuing the
53:25
thing that i care about like i want them to see like oh they
53:28
know dad sits at the
53:29
kitchen table and he's working on his book they know every day
53:32
where i'm at they
53:33
come up to me like time for my toast or my snack yeah like time
53:37
time's up you've
53:38
SPEAKER_03: had your hour you know
53:40
So,
53:40
like,
53:40
I love that they know what I'm doing because I want to be able
53:44
to speak into that.
53:45
Like,
53:46
so whenever they have resistance so they can remember,
53:48
like,
53:48
oh,
53:49
yeah,
53:49
you just show up.
53:50
SPEAKER_03: Like, just be there.
53:51
And,
53:51
you know,
53:52
I try to keep them like,
53:53
oh,
53:53
I didn't write very well today.
53:54
SPEAKER_03: Dad had a bad day, right?
53:57
SPEAKER_03: So they know, like, that's part of it.
53:59
SPEAKER_03: That's part of the process.
53:59
SPEAKER_03: It's like the bad days lead to the good days.
54:01
SPEAKER_03: The good days, yeah.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like a constant journey of the ups and downs.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
54:10
i think there's a lot of stakes too of just like i i think i
54:14
also have imposter
54:15
syndrome like where okay if i'm going to tell them i'm a writer
54:19
here's the
54:19
threshold of income i have to make for my writing so there's
54:22
like i also want them
54:24
to know like what is success and i think like being able to
54:27
have those discussions
54:28
like hey i just got a maybe a dm from somebody who told me they
54:32
read their book and
54:32
this is what they said versus like this is how many books i
54:35
sold this year you know
54:36
SPEAKER_03: like
54:37
SPEAKER_03: I really,
54:38
SPEAKER_03: I feel like,
54:39
SPEAKER_03: again,
54:40
SPEAKER_03: with the conversation we're having,
54:41
SPEAKER_03: and they are,
54:42
SPEAKER_03: my kids are the next generation.
54:43
SPEAKER_03: Like,
54:44
SPEAKER_03: I want them to know that outcome doesn't mean success,
54:46
SPEAKER_03: you know,
54:47
SPEAKER_00: like financial outcome,
54:48
SPEAKER_00: you know.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, pursuing the craft and the creative is the success.
54:55
SPEAKER_03: waking up with hope and excitement every day to go do that thing.
54:58
SPEAKER_03: Like I wake up before the crack of dawn,
55:00
SPEAKER_03: just like you,
55:01
SPEAKER_03: because I'm so excited to get to that story.
55:03
SPEAKER_03: Like coffee helps.
55:05
Cause that's like,
55:06
you know,
55:06
part of the process,
55:07
but like,
55:07
and that's a fun part of that.
55:09
SPEAKER_03: That's pretty good.
55:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
55:10
SPEAKER_03: Good coffee.
55:11
SPEAKER_03: Uh,
55:13
but yeah like i'm that part is like to me the you know the
55:16
people who hit the
55:17
snooze button on their thing like i will never relate because
55:20
there's something i'm
55:21
so totally eager and excited to get to and i hope they have
55:23
that whatever it is
55:24
it's probably not going to be writing but if it's anything in
55:27
the creativity or if
55:28
it's just like something they want to go i want them to go to
55:32
that thing with yeah
55:33
yeah and you being an example and a conduit to like what that
55:37
looks like is like
55:39
SPEAKER_00: yeah the goal
55:39
SPEAKER_00: That's my hope.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:43
I was thinking about this idea because I at some point I don't
55:47
have an answer for this yet.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to put you on the spot.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: But as like I don't know one of the values that I want with this these
55:58
conversations is to be able to look back and see them and see
56:01
kind of like how I've
56:03
SPEAKER_00: changed as a person.
56:05
SPEAKER_00: And one question I thought about is like imagine like
56:08
it's 20 years in the future um like what would you tell um your
56:15
daughters about
56:16
creating in the season that they're in so they're in their 20
56:19
somethings oh my gosh
56:21
i think i yeah i've thought about this a lot actually oh sweet
56:25
i mean i i think the
56:27
SPEAKER_03: patience is the part of the process that i didn't have and i think
56:33
SPEAKER_03: I think it's hard because in your 20s, you're still dabbling.
56:37
SPEAKER_03: I feel that was a part of the whole,
56:39
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to start this business,
56:40
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to do this idea.
56:41
SPEAKER_03: I had so many creative ideas.
56:44
SPEAKER_03: And that was good.
56:47
SPEAKER_03: It's good.
56:47
SPEAKER_03: I think it's good to dabble and try a lot of things and go after it.
56:50
SPEAKER_03: But what I didn't have was patience.
56:53
SPEAKER_03: I always thought, if this book doesn't succeed, it's over for me.
56:58
SPEAKER_03: And I think back to that point of like,
57:01
SPEAKER_03: It's what you can do.
57:02
SPEAKER_03: First, get into the arena.
57:05
SPEAKER_03: Get to that point where you're actually shipping your art.
57:07
SPEAKER_03: You're creating and shipping.
57:09
SPEAKER_03: No matter if you think it's bad or not bad.
57:11
SPEAKER_03: Even if they want to be a YouTuber or a TikToker, ship it.
57:14
SPEAKER_03: Ship the video.
57:15
SPEAKER_03: Send it out.
57:15
SPEAKER_03: Get feedback.
57:17
But once you're in the arena,
57:19
just keep showing up to get to the next one.
57:22
SPEAKER_00: And do it from a place of like...
57:25
pure motivation yeah yeah rather than like hey i'm chasing the
57:28
follows i'm chasing
57:29
the well it's harder on social media because that is i went on
57:32
there like hard one
57:34
time just like for my own personal brand and it was addicting
57:37
like of the dopamine
57:39
hits when you get a viral video and like literally how it's
57:42
designed oh my gosh it
57:44
SPEAKER_03: is the casino yeah for sure
57:46
SPEAKER_03: So,
57:46
SPEAKER_03: yes,
57:47
SPEAKER_03: I think if you want to be a creator,
57:50
SPEAKER_03: that's kind of what,
57:51
SPEAKER_03: oh,
57:51
you have to be on TikTok and you have to be on Instagram and
57:53
you have to be on
57:53
SPEAKER_03: YouTube.
57:55
SPEAKER_03: It's okay.
57:55
SPEAKER_03: Those things aren't, again, inherently bad.
57:57
SPEAKER_03: But to your point, I would make them dig deep.
58:00
SPEAKER_03: Like, okay, what's your why?
58:01
SPEAKER_03: And that's what Hyatt does with us at the creative...
58:05
meetup is like just keep digging keep going back to you get to
58:09
the root of why
58:10
you're doing the thing and if it is the love for just creating
58:13
videos or you want
58:14
to be a director whatever it is um yeah then it's worth it
58:18
figure out how to
58:19
balance the dopamine hits and the yeah the likes and the
58:23
follows and you don't get
58:24
trapped in this like prison of your own making because oh
58:27
that's what my audience
58:28
SPEAKER_03: wants
58:29
SPEAKER_03: But I don't really have to do whatever they want.
58:30
SPEAKER_03: Right.
58:30
SPEAKER_03: And that's why like even like the Colin Smear thing,
58:32
SPEAKER_03: I wonder like I know they're artists deep down.
58:34
And I know there's a lot of people who are artists and then
58:37
they go online and they
58:38
SPEAKER_03: want to put you in a niche.
58:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
58:39
And just like everything,
58:40
it's like,
58:41
oh,
58:41
so I show up to them and it's consistent.
58:43
SPEAKER_03: That's a brand.
58:44
SPEAKER_03: It's a business.
58:45
SPEAKER_03: But what point do you like your soul is like, oh, this is not congruent.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, no one's going to be 100% aligned with whatever they're there.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:53
SPEAKER_00: The way that people are pegging them out to be.
58:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, how can you align it as much as possible?
58:59
yeah i like kind of sometimes look at those creators who feel
59:01
like they're just
59:02
like they're they show up as themselves like all their
59:05
interests all they're not
59:06
just like a brand or a business they're just like this is me
59:09
who's the guy who did
59:10
um iron he just did a movie oh yes uh markiplier markiplier and
59:15
i was looking at
59:16
his stuff maybe saying that wrong man that seems like a guy who
59:19
uses creativity and
59:20
SPEAKER_03: his whole expression
59:21
just got 40 million right and he gets to make what he's
59:24
interested in and curious
59:25
about and i love that because it's like he's not trapped in
59:27
this like business he's
59:28
like no i'm just gonna make that and i know my fans are gonna
59:30
love it because they
59:31
like me and that guy has not had an easy journey like that his
59:35
creative journey is
59:36
pretty wild so it's like i don't know it i don't know a ton of
59:40
it but like even
59:41
even the little bits that i know it's just like i mean he's
59:43
been on youtube since
59:45
SPEAKER_00: youtube was a thing so it's like
59:47
uh he's old school yeah he's seen a lot of stuff i'm sure but i
59:52
do feel like and
59:53
what i would again tell them is like when you show up your
59:56
authentic self and you
59:57
like that's the best version because the fans who are with you
1:00:00
we're going to be
1:00:01
SPEAKER_03: with you and the ones that
1:00:03
want you to be one specific thing that's scary because i feel
1:00:06
like a lot of people
1:00:06
get trapped and you can yeah you can easily get trapped into it
1:00:09
you're the this guy
1:00:10
you're this guy like just make another twilight book or
1:00:14
whatever yeah exactly well
1:00:16
if you were making the twilight book it was that successful
1:00:18
maybe it's okay to be
1:00:19
that guy that's always a trap too right exactly um that's funny
1:00:23
that you say
1:00:24
patience because i feel like in this season that i'm in where
1:00:28
it's kind of like
1:00:29
uh towards the end of end of my 20s and trying to be like okay
1:00:34
like how do i live
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: into the next decade and like do this well and and what's the next step
1:00:40
vocationally and all that kind of stuff and a lot of these
1:00:43
conversations with my
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: dad uh because now we're like friends instead of it's less of a
1:00:50
he's still obviously my dad but it's like it's different yeah
1:00:53
we've gotten we've
1:00:54
gotten like closer as like friends and and his advice is almost
1:01:00
the same which is
1:01:00
just like things just take longer than you think they're gonna
1:01:03
take and like even
1:01:05
even what you were saying the other day with Seth Godin's the
1:01:09
dip or whatever where
1:01:10
SPEAKER_00: it's just like
1:01:11
ride it out yeah like remain consistent yeah and like
1:01:16
opportunities will present
1:01:17
themselves yeah if you're being intentional yeah and you're
1:01:21
being aware yeah and
1:01:23
it's like this most frustrating message to hear because it's
1:01:26
just like especially
1:01:28
in the world today where everything's like i did this and it
1:01:30
was just this one
1:01:31
SPEAKER_00: thing and then that's all you see on social media yeah exactly
1:01:34
and it's a comparison game and everything but i think it's just
1:01:37
like and that's
1:01:38
what like good creative deep work does is like it takes its
1:01:41
time yeah it's not
1:01:43
SPEAKER_00: quick yeah you have to be faithful with it and it's just like it's a very
1:01:47
frustrating thing for me to hear a lot of the time but yeah
1:01:50
it's funny that you say
1:01:51
that because i feel like that's exactly what my dad has said
1:01:54
and like does
1:01:56
SPEAKER_03: The dip is mint.
1:01:57
The reward comes from those who have the patience and the
1:02:00
persistence and the grit
1:02:01
SPEAKER_03: to outlast the people who will quit in the dip when things get hard.
1:02:05
Because inevitably in every endeavor that has a tough success
1:02:09
rate,
1:02:09
it's going to get very hard.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_03: And you'll have moments of doubt, like, should I quit this?
1:02:13
And I think it's the ones who make it pass that will reap the
1:02:18
reward of the
1:02:19
SPEAKER_03: persistence and the faith that they had in the process and the creation.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
1:02:24
SPEAKER_03: I'm still like,
1:02:25
SPEAKER_03: I waver sometimes in belief that,
1:02:27
SPEAKER_03: okay,
1:02:28
will there one day be like a payoff where I'm earning a living
1:02:31
solely on my books
1:02:32
SPEAKER_03: and my writing?
1:02:33
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_03: I can't promise that.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_03: But I do think there will be a moment of like,
1:02:37
SPEAKER_03: through the dip where I'm like,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_03: okay,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_03: like I've hit a sweet spot where I'm like,
1:02:42
SPEAKER_03: I've created the things I want to create.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_03: And it's just like kind of,
1:02:46
SPEAKER_03: Being more receptive to the wall.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_03: Like it will be more of a critical mass.
1:02:51
Yeah,
1:02:52
like surrendering a bit more to the process and holding it a
1:02:55
little bit looser.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: But it's like really hard to do that practically.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_00: I know.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: I know.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: It really is.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_02: Especially,
1:03:03
SPEAKER_03: again,
1:03:03
SPEAKER_03: when you go online and you see it and you just,
1:03:06
SPEAKER_03: you get that like,
1:03:07
SPEAKER_03: oh,
1:03:07
SPEAKER_03: well,
1:03:07
SPEAKER_03: maybe if I just did this thing,
1:03:09
SPEAKER_03: you're right.
1:03:10
I need to create a Substack and I need,
1:03:11
well,
1:03:12
we both create substacks.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_03: I need to monetize it ASAP.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_03: and I need to be getting this much per month.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: Which you totally should.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean... I don't know.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_03: But there is just, like, a quick... Yeah.
1:03:24
SPEAKER_03: Like,
1:03:24
SPEAKER_03: a moment where you get that quick,
1:03:25
SPEAKER_03: like,
1:03:26
SPEAKER_03: what do I need to do and try to,
1:03:27
SPEAKER_03: like,
1:03:27
SPEAKER_03: do it fast.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_03: And it's just never...
1:03:30
you just see the graveyard of people who have tried to do
1:03:33
something yeah yeah well
1:03:34
you that easily and quickly becomes like the people that are
1:03:38
really in it for the
1:03:39
right reasons outlast all the people that are in it for like
1:03:41
the well i thought
1:03:43
that if i did this consistently i'd get a million followers or
1:03:46
it's like no the
1:03:48
people that are like doing that consistently i've been doing it
1:03:50
for like 10 plus
1:03:52
SPEAKER_00: years and now they're just starting to get some success or
1:03:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
1:03:54
SPEAKER_03: and if you told them here's a paycheck for $125 million,
1:03:57
SPEAKER_03: they would probably do it the next day.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_03: I was just listening to the CEO of some brand, not Talentless.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_03: It was, I don't know, it's some huge streetwear brand.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_03: And he just sold 20% of his company for $250 million.
1:04:11
He's like,
1:04:12
I didn't even care because I was just going to do it the next
1:04:14
day anyway.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_03: And if they took the whole brand, then I'd start a new one the next day.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_03: He's like, I've been obsessed with this since I was in high school.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_03: it's what I, this is what I do.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_03: And again, his story is just the same thing.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_03: He hits the dip.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_03: All his friends quit the, you know, apparel line.
1:04:29
That's such a tough business that I'm going to make an apparel
1:04:32
brand that's someday
1:04:32
SPEAKER_03: going to be a $250 million buyout.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_03: But he just, he's like, I would be doing this anyway.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_03: And so if you,
1:04:39
SPEAKER_03: if the pain,
1:04:40
SPEAKER_03: most people find it painful and you find that like,
1:04:43
SPEAKER_03: Hey,
1:04:43
SPEAKER_03: I would do this anyway,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_03: even though it's painful.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_03: Like you have something.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:04:49
oh that's so good yeah dang what was the mark man is mark
1:04:53
manson do you listen to
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: his stuff yeah sometimes he's like the uh
1:04:58
he's like move the f on or like what does he do oh subtle art
1:05:02
of not yeah yeah but
1:05:04
he was he was talking about like what do you what the advice
1:05:07
you give to somebody
1:05:08
who's looking for their passion or what they're gonna that one
1:05:10
thing they want to
1:05:10
stick with to and it's just like that it's like would you do it
1:05:13
do you do it on
1:05:14
nights and weekends but most people find like when i say to
1:05:17
some people oh i wrote
1:05:18
a book like oh i could never or i have an idea but like i can't
1:05:22
sit down and write
1:05:23
SPEAKER_03: i would
1:05:23
they wouldn't do that on their weekends or hobbies but like if
1:05:25
i get a day off i'm
1:05:27
that's the only thing i'm doing you know you're finding a cool
1:05:29
coffee shop yeah
1:05:30
there's just yeah so there's something to totally yeah yeah the
1:05:36
the patience game
1:05:37
yep um cool we'll wrap it up yeah um every every conversation
1:05:44
i'm asking um
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: someone to basically give the next guest a question.
1:05:52
And so I stole this idea from Diary of a CEO and I was like,
1:05:56
this is a great idea.
1:05:57
And so the question that was asked from the last conversation
1:06:01
that I had for you
1:06:04
SPEAKER_00: was,
1:06:05
would you still be doing all the same things that you're doing
1:06:08
creatively,
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: even if no one was watching?
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we kind of just talked about that.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_00: And would you do anything different in light of that response?
1:06:19
Like,
1:06:19
should you be doing anything different in light of that idea
1:06:24
practically in your life now?
1:06:28
Yeah,
1:06:28
the answer is I would be doing it if no one's watching or no
1:06:32
one reading.
1:06:32
I think that's the thing about writing books is for a year I'm
1:06:34
doing it with zero people.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_03: I feel like that's really fast too.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, okay, sorry.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_03: I write a book a year, but like I said, the idea...
1:06:43
There will be an output,
1:06:44
but I started the last two,
1:06:46
like three and seven years ago.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_03: So they, it's this long cycle of all these ideas.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: My metric is George R.R.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_00: Martin.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, never.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_03: That's the one that's never going to come.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_03: So would I be doing anything different in light of that response?
1:07:00
SPEAKER_03: No.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_03: I think I would just continuously show up.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_03: I think what I'm trying to be intentional about is...
1:07:09
especially with like all this new ai and technology of like
1:07:13
never opening up any
1:07:14
kind of app never open while i'm doing that work because i feel
1:07:17
like that's the
1:07:19
blank page no matter how fast technology moves i think there's
1:07:24
something where the
1:07:24
tension in your like soul meets yeah and the dauntingness of
1:07:28
that dauntingness of
1:07:29
that and you wrestling with that like to create the diamonds
1:07:32
for the page you know
1:07:33
SPEAKER_03: kind of thing like
1:07:35
SPEAKER_03: is really important.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_03: So that's something intentionally I'm trying to do.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_03: So nobody's watching and I'll just keep doing it.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, people are watching.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_03: And more people during the years where you're writing,
1:07:49
SPEAKER_03: like nobody's going to read my first draft.
1:07:51
I would if somebody actually read my first draft,
1:07:53
I would be like embarrassed beyond relief.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_03: There's half form sentences.
1:07:58
yeah like well that's part of the bones of a skeleton of a book
1:08:02
yeah yeah yes no
1:08:04
one's gonna read that what's uh what's a question that you have
1:08:08
for our next guest
1:08:10
let me think what is something that you have that what is a
1:08:21
burning idea what is a
1:08:23
SPEAKER_03: burning like thought or creative
1:08:27
creative wrestling or stirring that you've had that you haven't
1:08:29
answered is there
1:08:31
one that you haven't answered um before that just keeps coming
1:08:35
up that you want to
1:08:36
take seriously or yeah i like that like is there something is
1:08:41
there something uh in
1:08:43
your life right now that you haven't taken seriously that you
1:08:47
want to especially
1:08:48
SPEAKER_03: with a creative project or a creative you know i'm excited yeah
1:08:51
excited to see what whoever do you have the next guest picked
1:08:55
out uh there's a
1:08:56
couple candidates um yeah so i think it'll be good awesome dude
1:09:01
thanks so much for
1:09:01
SPEAKER_00: taking the time