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Training Zones Explained: How to Use Zones 1–5 for Endurance Performance · The Endurance Athlete Journey

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Coach Justin.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here with Coach Katie.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And today's episode is episode 124, and it's going to be an extension of a previous episode that we did where we introduced the concept of zone two training.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: In that episode, we talked briefly about what zone two is, how do we define it, what are our thoughts on zone two and its benefits and how we use it across different athlete populations.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you want more information in terms of the basis of this conversation, I would go back and check out that episode.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I will refer back to it's episode 122 of the of the podcast.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So what we want to do now is we want to extend this conversation and really kind of define what the other zones are.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because there's a there's a scientific journal article that that we've picked up and we wanted to discuss the claims of of this article.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what it does is it looks at the efficacy of zone two training and whether this is an optimal training model for the major for the majority of athletes.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that both Katie and I have come to the same conclusion that the article did is like, well, we don't necessarily believe that it's optimal across the entire athlete population.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: We definitely don't think it's optimal for certain segments of the athlete population.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so whether it is a one piece fits all kind of training model, we don't believe so.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: But there are three claims that are being made within this article, and we want to look a little bit closer so that we can draw some conclusions on the efficacy of zone two training.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: But in order to do that, we have to understand what the other zones are and how many of them are there, what's taking place within these zones, what are the benefits of training in these other zones compared to just zone two, zone two efforts.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where this episode is is headed.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just let's just dive on in.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just check it out.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there are five zones in the typical, like I think there are different things.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think we need to make that distinction because you know there are certain models where you don't have five five zones.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's the tip there's a there's a three-zone model where there's just low, moderate, and high.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you look at the 80-20 model that was expanded upon by by Matt Fitzgerald in his book, there's I think there's like seven zones.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's some intermediates, there's like one through four, and then there's an X and Y that's in there as well.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really kind of a challenging model to look at and to understand and and implement for that matter.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but if you look inside training peaks and you can find all the different models that training peaks uses to define your aerobic zones.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And however you choose to define those zones, whether it's on on you know heart rate, whether it's power, pace, or what have you.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know that for for me and my coaching at my coached athletes, we use the five-zone model.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just it's more intuitive.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that there's anything wrong with the other ones.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just to me, it just fits in the puzzle better, and I think it's easier to understand and anticipate.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I Katie, do what do you use for some of your athletes and what do you use in your training?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: What what kind of what kind of model?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would say I use the five zone because I think it's more intuitive and it kind of gets at more of the science in terms of, I mean, yeah, I mean, maybe I don't know, there could be like some subzones or something confusing, but we don't want to, I don't want to overcomplicate it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it gets a little bit either too simplified with only three or four zones or like over-complicated what you're saying with like Matt Fitzgerald's zones.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think five zones makes it easy to understand, and I think they're pretty easy to like generally fairly easy to delineate.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what I meant to say.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I also want to say, like, this is the thing I just want to mention is that it's kind of I think we think of zones when there's like a hard, fast, like you're going from this zone to this zone, and our body doesn't really think like that physiologically.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a little bit more fluid than that.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can kind of go in between zones and things depending on other circumstances outside of our control, like heat, or if we're going up a hill, things change and and it's not as though it's like I'm one point above this like pre-calculated number that I came up with for zone two, and now I'm in zone three, but I'm in some danger zone or something.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's it's our body doesn't that's just not how it works.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it it the zones are just there to kind of help us, but the rem remembering it's just I want people to keep that clear.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of like a little bit f fluid.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's no day-to-day, there's no hard and fast rules exactly unless you're unless you were to have a bunch of stuff that you were hooked up to, like lactate meters and oxygen mask measuring your CO2 output and oxygen uptake, and you had all this stuff cooked hooked to you.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's really no, you know, day-to-day way to really, to really have to really know exactly that you're in any sort of zone unless you're unless you're measuring things.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So keeping that in mind too.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're just sort of the zones are there to help guide us, but uh there's there's a little bit of fluidity there.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the way I like to think of the way I like to think about it is that if if anybody if anybody out there does graphic design or deals with any kind of colors, whether they're doing graphs and analytic work, I think of the zones as just the color like a color spectrum.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's rather than just these these sharp changes from one color to another at some threshold value, I don't think of it that way.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's a gradient of colors that spans from the upper to lower.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's that's it's a smooth transition, so they're not like sharp cuts in between each each threshold that defines a particular zone.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if you think of it that term in terms of like that, where you know if the if the color goes from if if zone one is yellow and zone two is red, then between those two zones are going to be all bunch of oranges.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it just it it flows like that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like you know, my workout is now for naught because I transitioned from one zone to another.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think that the body works like that, nor as is all your adaptations you know not realized, and uh the idea and the concept of optimality I I think doesn't really really really hold.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now if you go from zone two to zone four, then clearly there there's you know there are some issues with that kind of uh well if you're like supposed to be in zone two.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, if you're supposed to be in zone two and you wind up in zone four, then then you didn't execute it well is is I think what that boils down to.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we really kind of have to we have to define on what these zones are because right now they're kind of arbitrary and whether whether anybody understands what they are or the basis behind them, how do we define them?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're defined based on the metric.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you're using heart rate zones, whether you're using power zones uh for for cycling or running, if you're using pace zones for running, uh swimming the same, there's different ways to assign an intensity barometer.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was really kind of like what what this zone-based training is all about.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the management and the prescription for intensity.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that that's the key thing that you have to understand is like, well, why do we even use zones?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we just go out and just run just for for run's sake?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Which is completely a reasonable question to ask.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the the answer to that question is, well, it depends on what your goals are.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't care about getting faster, if you don't care about getting stronger, then by all means go out and just run.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't care about consistency and durability, then just go out and just run based on however you're feeling that day.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that could work if you just want to do that.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a difference between But there's a difference between that and like training for performance.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so in order to do that well, we have to manage stress and how it's how it's doled out on the body.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that we do that is through this zone-based training.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, let's go through each and like kind of I think we can stay on one zone and just talk about what it is and then the mechanism or benefit and the primary fuel source adaptation, that stuff.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: That way we can go through each zone and talk about that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: That way when we come back to the claims in the article, we can bring in some of this and it's everyone can be on the same page, I think.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll start with zone one, and that I just I defined it as like active recovery.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is like if you have a max heart rate, it's like 50 to 60 percent of your max.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is like sub zone two, this is like below zone two.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're running, this is a this is where I think for runners, this is a tough one because at some point if you're and I was just listening to a podcast earlier that was kind of describing this.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like let's say your easy pace is like a nine minute mile, but to be in zone one, you have to run a 10, 10 minute mile, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: It might be it might be just a shuffle, like a little bit of a shuffle, and it may be like very unnatural.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes this is where maybe I would sub I would uh prescribe this as like a walk or for a runner, maybe they're getting on the bike and they're spinning it out because you can do that a little easier without breaking down biomechanically or breaking down your form or making it seem uncomfortable to do it, you know, do some sort of cross-training in this zone.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I rarely would actually write in my training prescription or my training plan for an athlete that to do their run in this sort of active recovery.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they would slightly be there on a really easy run, but it can be really hard to, you know, you think if you're easy run and then you're going easier than your easy run.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just hard to do sometimes.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: But that's essentially what this would be.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: It would be just like a little bit of a walk or some sort of light activity that really, I mean, there is there the benefits to this are probably really more like metabolic byproducts that you would clear, just kind of getting your blood flow, clearing some of those, you know, if you've had a really hard workout the previous day, just kind of clearing some getting rid of some of that fatigue, some of that muscle soreness, just kind of helping flush the body, get the blood moving essentially.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's predominantly fat that you're burning um at this intensity.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably the majority of the benefit.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do you have any thoughts?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what do you how do you add zone one into your training or for your athletes?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Some some of my zone one stuff would be would be used in recovery portions of intervals.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you know if I if I do if I prescribe a a big gear interval, a big gear session for for a cyclist, I may have them, you know, doing some some of these some of these prolonged hill climbs at like nine or ten minutes, and then I say, you know, we're going to do a two-minute zone one recovery, which is effectively just like light pressure on the pedal, and it's almost like momentum just brings the foot back around.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's hardly any effort to it.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason that we want to do that is we want to reset the body so that it it so that it can work hard again in in the next interval.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Rarely ever do I give an entire workout prescribed in zone one, and there's a caveat to that.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Post-race, I will give an athlete an active recovery session, and it's for the exact same purpose that you said.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's for loosening up some tight muscles where start we want to get the blood flowing so that we start to, so the body can start to process some of the waste that the body created during hard efforts and during race conditions.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'm a big fan of just walking.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I may give a runner or a triathlete who just had a big race the next day would just be a nice easy walk.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a strolling, like window shopping effort.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'll tell them, hey, why don't you find a local like state park or something and get on some soft, soft forest floor and you know, do that and just go out and just for a walk.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, you don't even have to record it on your Garmin.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, we're all gonna record it on the Garmin because if it doesn't show up in Strava, then it never happens.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So but that's that's the that's the only reason why I would give somebody uh like a zone one effort.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Even some of my cross-training stuff are is zone-based.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if I give so if I give an athlete an elliptical session, I may say, you know, hey, we're still gonna do some like zone two and zone three efforts in the cross-training.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So just because it's a cross-training doesn't mean it's active recovery.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: It just means that it's a different if it's it's a different loading process, and I may be trying to effectively d-load the body but still generate aerobic gains, but just generate them in a different way that is from their primary sport.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: But zone one is strictly recovery kind of stuff, resetting between intervals or post-race rehab work is the way that I prescribe it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't do this typically, maybe a little bit, but I have had athletes I work with where their coaches have prescribed a lot, like a walking session after a long run or something where they do a a portion of it walking.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I was kind of thinking to myself, okay, that's interesting, because they've just put this long effort in.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're obviously tired, they need to refuel, so there's some important like they're they're delaying that a little bit.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the more I thought about it, the more I was like, I guess it's like maybe a 10-minute walk afterwards, just for the same reason.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Clearing some of those byproducts, just almost allowing your body to go from because this is also where active recovery can be important from going from sympathetic, which is when we're doing a long run or some hard efforts, you're in this pushing the heart rate that puts you into more of a stress our our stress system, our our sympathetic nervous system.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And by doing a little bit of walking or even like some mobility or just some stretching, walking for five minutes, stretching for five minutes before you jump in your car and go home or sit, you know, and do your next meeting for work, trying to bring into that parasympathetic system and just kind of bringing down our heart rate, getting a little bit of like, okay, some deep breaths, some something that kind of stimulates that parasympathetic nervous system to help us recover a little bit better and kind of not just jump right into the next thing.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that I do think maybe another thought somebody could have in terms of how they could bring a little bit of uh zone two zone one as at the end of a workout just to maybe help kind of get get themselves down, their their nervous system down a little bit too.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think we brought up some.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's I think that all makes sense.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of agree with you for the most part.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, that's the only time I do zone one is oftentimes it's uh like during a marathon training block or something, when I have a rest day, I'll often do a walk or an active recovery.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes if I'm really, really sore after a long run, it will be kind of in this zone one, like because I just cannot go any faster.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm very slow.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like at least a portion of my run will kind of start.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes even when we're warming up, like thinking of that too, just for a workout, I'll often start very, very slow, almost like it will just to warm my body up.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: It it starts almost as a shuffle.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would say the first five minutes are probably zone one sometimes.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then it kind of like for me, it builds in, you know, to a higher zone, especially as I'm getting older.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like my body just takes a little bit longer to get into gear to get into the to the faster zones.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just have to like warm into it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyways, um let's move on.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we yeah, yeah, I guess I I could say, yeah, a lot of my workouts do have that that warm-up thing.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: The one that you the one thing that you do have to be careful on though is when you start dipping into these lower, these lower zone efforts, like this zone one effort, your biomechanics and like your efficiency can be greatly altered.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go out and you and you tell a runner, I want you to go out and run in zone one, that that actually to me, that's a really hard workout to do because the run mechanics are almost completely different.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Your stride doesn't look ex doesn't look anything the same.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I would often question, okay, well, what's what are you getting out of this other than you know just learning to to run really slow, but you're running with with poor form that you're not going to use.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like that almost like what it's counterproductive because you're almost teaching your body to be in this really bad.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I would usually have it be a walk or an easy spin or the one in the pool.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think for runners specifically, that's where I I don't tend to prescribe this.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: But there are certain times, like you said, in between intervals and maybe the very beginning of the run or at the end if you do some walking, where I would I would say it might have some benefits.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we probably won't spend a lot of time in zone one generally as athletes.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we did talk a lot last time about zone two.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we defined this pretty well.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: We could just go through it really quick and just recap it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think aerobic base, 60 to 70 percent max heart rate is usually where it's defined for heart rate, lactate levels of 1.7 to 2 millimoles per liter.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: This would be like your pace that you could maintain for very long periods of time.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all day pace is what they say, but nobody really I mean, that's just kind of like it's like if you get started, you're like, yeah, yeah, you're just breathing, you can talk, you're come pretty comfortable, you're not having to s to to slow yourself down to an uncomfortable pace, like a slow pace.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're at a pace of a running level that you feel comfortable at.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of what that is.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the benefits there for zone two, this is some of the claims, and this is also what we'll talk about a little bit, is that mitochondrial is mitochondrial density.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it just means increasing the amount of mitochondria that we have.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the powerhouse of the cell where we're gonna get energy production, and it's an important thing to have as an endurance athlete, and maybe fat increasing fat oxidation or the ability for the body to utilize fat.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe also helping those slow twitch muscle fibers, building those or just increasing those slow twitch fibers as well.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so this just kind of being in that zone, those are the the claims, anyways.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so and that is true, those are all improved with with the zone twos.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk a little bit about the other zones and what those those zones may also have some of those benefits.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think I gee, did you have anything you wanted to add?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is really where the zone, I would argue probably this is for most athletes where they spend a lot of time, but the percentage of that time may differ a little bit depending on the season, the where they're at in their season, what their goals are, so forth.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I think many athletes put too much emphasis on this particular zone and they spend too much time in this zone.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: If their goal is to become faster, stronger athletes.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: If your goal is to go longer, then I would say, okay, maybe this is a reasonable zone to do the bulk of your training in.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if I'm if I'm coaching, if I'm coaching a marathoner, I may not do the the large portion of their training plan in zone two.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are there zone two workouts in that plan?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because it's all about stress management.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: But for for an Iron Man athlete, I may do a pretty large proportion of their training in zone two.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a, it's it's a much longer day.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking like a typical marathoner is probably what?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's just say a middle of the pack runner.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: What would you think would be an average, like you say four hours?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: For for their longest day?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for for a marathoner, what's kind of like the like a middle of the pack, mid-pack runner?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do you mean for like the duration?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: It takes them for the marathon.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, four, four, somewhere between like, yeah, probably average four hours, four hours thirty minutes, somewhere around there, I think.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would say average marathon.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so four, four and a half hours, a middle of the pack trath like Iron Man, you're talking already 13, 12, 13 hours is probably kind of like what we're talking about.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Huge difference in in training structure and duration and intensity management.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see why I would do a significant amount of that athlete's training in zone two because of the time that they're going to be spending in that activity.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: But for a marathoner, it it might not be it, it probably won't look the same.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it might depend too on their goal a little bit, like if they're like I just want to kind of finish it versus I am training to like run this thing as fast as I can.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's yeah, it it's different.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think more for a marathoner m more of their training.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe in a higher zone, and then the faster the race, probably the less time, you know, typically in in zone two, depending on the athlete.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: But for your typical non-elite, now we're talking here, we're talking non-elite athletes.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Elite athletes are sort of in their own, they're they have all the time in the world to train generally because they're getting paid to do so.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, even some of our milers or 5K runners that are elite will spend will be running volumes that most of us are not running.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so some so you know if you look at them and say, oh well, this 5K runner I know who's elite athlete, they're doing 80-20 or that there's like in that distribution or something close to that.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great, that's not who we're talking about here, because they're probably also running at least 80 miles a week still, some of those elite 5K.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it it's it's all relevant, you know, to to sometimes the the more intense the more volume you hit, the probably more time you're spending in zone two because you can't, you can only do so much intensity, intense training.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you can't if you're doing 80 miles a week.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know very many people who could probably do half of those miles in in zone three or higher because you'd be you'd burn out, you wouldn't be able to maintain that.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: So this is really it also is based off of how many hours, how much volume you have, because you know, you might be doing your easy runs might be you might take more days off where you don't run and you may have more very easy, easy runs, not you know, two hour easy runs.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing whatever and you might or your hour their hour is like 10 miles or not really, but something like that, you know, and and your hour you're running six, you know, so it's it's all relevant, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just stop let's go to zone three.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So zone three is you have the threshold one, which is where we hit above mil two millimoles per liter, is kind of that or that lactate one zone.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's kind of also I think where I define zone three kind of starts there.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it has a a a range of from two to four millimoles per liter, typically depending on the the person, but it's typically where we would be for that zone three in terms of if you're measuring lactate, and it's typically 70 to 80 percent of max heart rate, maybe around there.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is where I think we had a little bit of different opinions about the pace this might be at because it may depend a little bit.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking like a lot of my marathon isn't actually spent in zone two, because the more I was thinking about it, I'm like, if I'm just pull pulling out some paces and don't don't compare your paces to my paces.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is just me.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: But for zone two, like I'm typically in like an 830, maybe it's like 730 to like an a nine minute pace, depending on the particular day.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: I might be in that pace.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a long range, but some there are some days I literally am struggling and I'm I'm in a nine or nine thirty pace.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it really depends.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: 730 is probably pushing it.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: That you know, maybe like at the on a good day, that's that's maybe my pace for zone two.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: So my marathon pace is like a 640 to 7 minute pace in there.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm actually mostly in zone three, most of my marathon.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even spending a whole lot, maybe the very beginning, I might be in zone two for a little bit, but I'm spending personally the way I'm pushing my body and the way the just the pacing itself is more in zone three.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then probably towards the end of the marathon, just because of cardiac drift and the effort and all the other things going on, it's probably into like a higher zone.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm spending the majority of my marathon in zone three.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that is probably true for a lot of people, but I do think it depends.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody is just kind of like I'm trying to finish, I I they're not pushing themselves to their max capacity as fast as they can go for 26 miles, they may be spending more of their marathon in zone two.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I think when I'm doing my training plan, I'm thinking zone three is kind of my marathon piece.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is around what the way I'm calculating it.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it does it will depend a little bit.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it's comfortably hard, not easy, you know.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna have you can only do this for, you know, maybe on a on a race day scenario, maybe for the portion of your marathon time, which arguably what most people probably couldn't be in zone three for much longer than maybe three, three and a half hours before they couldn't do maintain it anymore.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's if they're well trained.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh yeah, it's it's just it's that's the intensity.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of slightly harder than zone two.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're starting to feel like this may this is getting a little harder.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm gonna be maintaining this for I couldn't maintain this all day, that's for sure.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of that got so I don't know about you.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do you how do you define the zone three or what do you when you're working with people?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I still think of it in terms of building aerobic base has some zone three characteristics.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's a little bit of a mix of zone two and three with an athlete where we're we're in the base phase of of the training plan, so we're just trying to lay the foundation.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: So there are there is some zone three work there.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I think of it in terms of maybe at that break that that breakpoint between zone three and zone four.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think of in terms of the Olymp an Olympic, Olympic distance triathlon or a 10K effort is is the way that I think about it.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: For a marathoner, with the type of marathoners that I that I tend to work with, they're n I I don't coach a whole lot of elite athletes.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the a lot of that stuff would be zone two efforts, maybe at that upper end, you know, before right at that the cusp of zone two to zone three, kind of depending on on their experience.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I typically think of of the the half the half marathon is kind of it's really that it's in no man's land, so it's just like how do can yeah, how do you pace a half marathon?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: The same the same with like an Olympic triathlon.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like it's a sprint where it's just all threshold work, and it's not like it's it's a uh it's a half Iron Man where it's kind of like a a tempo effort.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Olympic triathlons are really hard to pace uh because it's kind of like you're you're not in one zone all the time, and so it's like you're you're floating between.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the way that I think about it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I think of zone through three.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: If I had to, if I had to give an athlete a cue on like what what does it feel like to have if you ask yourself, am I in zone three?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: I would say this is a zone two effort, but with focus.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: If I had to like really kind of like, okay, I have to pay attention right now on what I'm doing, then chances are you're in zone three.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you're running in zone two, it almost feels like you're just running on a rope.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like you're in you're in complete control of your body, you're not like swaying side to side, you're making clean contact with the ground.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: It it for some it doesn't feel effortless, depending on you know how conditioned you are, but it it's like I feel comfortable and in control of myself.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't feel like I'm I'm really kind of like pushing beyond where I have to like start paying attention as to what it is that I'm doing.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I tell I tell athletes, let's think of zone three as it's zone two with focus.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can I can I can see what you're saying.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes in zone two, I'm just that I like zone two sometimes because my mind is.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're looking at the flowers, you're you're watching the birds fly by, so it's just like, ooh, you know, I'm like thinking about stuff.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like coming up with great ideas in my head.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh yeah, I gotta I gotta do that, or like whatever.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like things are going on.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: But when I'm when I kind of hit over into zone three, it's like, yeah, that that I'll be sometimes I can think about stuff, but I definitely the focus starts to kind of narrow a little bit more on what I'm doing.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can't I'm maybe not paying as much attention to the birds and the other things.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: I might, but it's I might look and be like, oh, interesting, but my mind isn't so able to wander because now I have to focus a little bit more and it's getting a little bit more challenging, just like in a marathon, you know.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm thinking, okay, like I'm not like I'm I'm not able to look around as much as I would otherwise are in zone two.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do have to focus more.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: As it as you go faster, that focus kind of gets a little more narrow, and now you're really paying attention to breathing and there isn't a lot of I mean, you're obviously looking around and you have to pay attention a little bit, but you're more inwardly focused on what the is going on, what your body's doing, and less able to wander in your thoughts.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard because again, we we kind of have to sometimes use these subjective ways of thinking about it, or if we have a pace, but even so, like there are days, even when I'm training for a marathon, where it's I'm tired or I'm fatigued, and so the pace may be like that for that same RPE may be slightly slower than my marathon pace because I'm I'm trying to do a tempo and I and I'm tired or something.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes using pacing is helpful, and sometimes you have to also be able to realize that day to day those uh zones shift a little bit, and so it's not always gonna be the that particular pace either, and I think that's hard for people.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: But this is really where just for the mechanism, the body can still clear lactate.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not quite in increasing, although I think if you s keep going at this pace for a little while, it may start to accumulate, or just generally you'll have some of the the that shift, that cardiac drift, and that like the body's you know, getting it's getting harder for the body to to clear the lactate, but there's also like more fatigue that starts to happen with because at this pace is when we start to recruit a little more of those type two fibers.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if we remember, type two fibers are like our power, you know, these are the fibers that are good for for sprinting, speed and power and things like that.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's fast twitch, yeah.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to, you know, at this point, though those are also fatiguing fibers.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's also one of the limitations at this zone.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it's good because we want to learn how to recruit type two fibers.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to be able to recruit those and have those fibers learn how to deal with it.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we would that that's actually a good thing.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the fatigue starts to accumulate, and there are some benefits.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're still getting fat-burning benefits here, but this is where we were talking about it a little bit before, right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is where people kind of think, well, I'm out of zone two.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm no longer in my fat burning zone, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And somehow magically the fat-burning zone is gone, and now you're in some sort of other like carb burning zone.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not actually what's happening.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that well, as we go into the higher zones, our energy expenditure is increasing.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So in zone three, and we and we talked about, so I'm trying to use this analogy, but let's say per 10 every 10 minutes you burn 10 calories in zone two.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now you're maybe in zone three or zone four.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just gonna use this analogy because it's easy math-wise, but maybe in zone in that zone two, you're burning 10 calories per 10 minutes, and eight of those calories out of the 10 is from fat, and the other two are from carbs because we do burn some carb.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe now you go into zone three or zone four and you're burning 20 calories per 10 minutes.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're still probably burning pretty close to eight calories of that as fat still.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: But now that all those additional calories are carb because now that that energy system, you're you're needing a little, you're becoming a little more carb dependent or needing a little more carbs for that intensity, but you're still burning some fat.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: So people always think, oh, I'm like now I'm out of fat burning zone.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're still burning, you're still actually burning some fat.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably pretty similar to zone two, but your total energy expenditure is now going up because you have a higher energy demand for the pace.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're going faster, your body needs more energy for that pace.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I want people to think about that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a crossover that will occur, like sort of as you go into zone four and zone five, where if you remember that crossover concept of like the carbs, you know, you're burning fat is here and carbs are down here.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And as you go intensity, the it crosses over, and then eventually you just burn.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: So at zone one, it's almost entirely fat, and then it crosses over.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no, and that crossover can be pushed a little bit further, but there's no way to burn a hundred percent fat at zone five.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a point at which you just are no longer burning any fat at all.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: But in zone three, you're still able to utilize and burn fat, and it's probably not a substantially amount less than zone two.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So there, this is where we'll talk a little bit in our arguments about whether or not, you know, zone two is somehow magical for this.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: But um I just want people to think about that, especially because the other thing we're talking about is I think most people have experienced this if they go to the gym or the at least the old machines, they used to have that fat burning zone, you know, like you'd you'd click it and it was like it was literally like zone one, because that is fat burning, you know, that's uh almost a hundred percent fat.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like in order you could do an hour-long uh workout in zone three and burn just as much even more fat, maybe, than three hours in zone in that zone.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe that would be the equivalent to three hours in that zone.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: So even though it so people never realize that it's like, yeah, but your calorie output is so low in that fat burning zone, it's like equivalently you would have actually burned the same amount of fat for less time.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And anyway, people get confused a little bit about how this works.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: But just a reminder that we really don't get to that point where we stop burning fat until we're hitting zone four into zone five and those higher zones.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So just I hope that I hope that helps people understand that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that made sense to you, but Yeah, yeah, it makes it makes complete sense.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get that.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I I like the way I like the way that you I like the way that you described the the accumulation of lactate when it comes to zone three, because in the last episode we talked about we talked about how this how the body is clearing this this byproduct, this waste product.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I and I want to reiterate that lactate is not a bad thing.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the the rate in which the body can clear that and convert it and turn it back into an energy source, that takes time.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I think when you think of zone two, think of it in terms of all of the all of the waste product and the byproduct that I'm producing during that effort is fully able to be utilized and absorbed and and converted and and transported by the body.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's no accumulation.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Everything that I create is being offset.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the the net result is zero, think of it that way.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Zone three is where we get to the point where this net effect is a non-zero number.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: So think of it that way.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if if zone two, if I produce five units of lactate, my body can clear five units of lactate under that effort.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, under zone three, let's say my body produces the same five units of lactate, but it can only process and utilize and clear three of those units.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: So now I have a a net positive of two units of lactate.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the longer that that session continues, that trend and that accumulation, that compounding effort will start to accumulate, and that's where you start to to build build this this lactate, and where now if you're a runner and your your hamstrings start to tighten up and your your stride shortens, that's what's going on, is this production of fatigue.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I like it that the way that we describe this as you know, it it's okay, the body is still clearing some of it, but just not all of it.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you if you get to that point where you can understand there is some accumulation happening, it's just not to the same level as zone four, but this is partially why we can't maintain the zone also, you know, forever.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is why it is now a zone above zone two.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: I also want to make a point.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is peep people are really very mean, are not ha they don't like this zone.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the gray zone.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is the bad zone.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, you kind of get that in.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to spend all of our time.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is where I think this zone gets a bad reputation because some people I think or or before we had this real, this sort of zone two, like, gosh, we've got to spend all this time in zone two.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think there were probably a lot of people just running every day in zone three, never going easy and never going hard.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: They just went out zone three.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some benefits to this zone, particularly if you're if you were running like a a race or a marathon or you know, a race in this zone, you want to spend some time here.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: But the benefits of zone, like higher zones, there's a lot of benefits with some of these higher zone training, and there is benefits in terms of recovery, and and there is some benefits also for zone two.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's just differentiating between we don't want you to spend all of your time in zone three either.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: We want to spend a little bit of time here if our race, specifically if our race is kind of in this zone, but I think that's where it's good gotten its bad reputation.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we absolutely do need to spend some time here.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we don't want to have all of our training, just we don't want to maybe be all of our training in zone two all of the time.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: We also don't want to be in this zone three all of the time either.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I just want to make that clear that it's not a bad zone.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not as though this is like the the gray zone, the uh the zone to avoid or something like that.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just that I think there are a lot, a lot of benefits we get from like that lactate threshold zone, or even sometimes spending time in the higher zones, anaerobic zones, there's just a lot of benefit there that we may not be able to get in zone three as well.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if if you're in that zone all the time, because we know that there's this net gain of lactate, it could impact your ability to be consistent.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if all of your training is done with that, I mean your body won't have the time to recover and repair and and and get rid of that that cumulated lactate.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Fatigue too, yeah, and neuromoscularity.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: You may may not be able to be as consistent as as you would want to be.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: It also means that you may not be able to I I think the argument is that you're you're neither going hard or fast and you're not going easy.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think that that's why some of it also gets this this bad rap is because many athletes want to become faster and they want to become stronger.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if they did all their training in zone three, they're not really going to get that faster.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're not going to get faster, and they're not going to get all that stronger because they're not engaging those fast twitch muscle fibers enough to really encourage and bring about that adaptation.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's it's like you're tapping on the door a little bit, but it's not like a full knock yet.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if you think about it that way.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great way to think about it.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we do we do want to we wanna have a little more of the extremes, I guess, or like the higher zones for that reason.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where zone four is that like so that is that sort of typically thought of as that lactate threshold zone of about four millimoles per liter or more, 75 to 80 percent of max heart rate.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it may change a little.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So for our not as well trained or or amateur non-elites, that's probably where their lactate threshold may lie.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: But for someone who is really well trained, it may be actually 80 to 92 or so percent, somewhere around that of their their heart max heart rate.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they can kind of push this a little bit higher.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're they're that that kind of makes it confusing.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for I think of this as for for me, I kind of think of this as right around 10k pace, because uh zone three is kind of like half marathon to marathon pace.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: This may be sort of 10k pace-ish to half marathon.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's kind of in that what you could maintain for like an hour-long race, typically.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there isn't really a lot of, I mean, it I guess it really depends on how long it takes you to run a 10K, because it is really dependent on your pacing, a little bit in what your ability is here, but it's about what could you maintain for about 60 minutes before you're like, I cannot keep going in, you know, very much longer than this.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how I view it.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where it's not you it's it's hard, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're you're having to concentrate, your breathing is increasing, you're obviously like respiration is going up.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot hold a conversation.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody asks you a question, you may be able to say one or two things like I'm dying, this hurts, or I'm dying.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm just kidding, or no, I'm good, or something like that, just a couple quick words, but you're not gonna be able to be like carrying on some conversation with someone.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you're not so winded that you cannot say anything at all.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just a couple quick words, but you're you're you're breathing a little bit more heavily.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: But let's say you do a workout where you you do this for 10 minutes in this zone, it shouldn't be where you're just totally gassed and you You could you could maybe take a minute or two break or lower intensity and then do it again, you know.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you can repeat this, you know, not infinitely, but it's it's kind of in that zone where the the interval itself could be between maybe five, four or five minutes to ten minutes and or even maybe a little longer, but you're not comfortable, but you're not trying to think, but you're not like unable to finish.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're you could finish strong, but you're gonna need a little bit of recovery before you start up the next interval, but you don't need like five minutes of recovery.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's sort of how I define it.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's it's hard.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to do it based off of effort.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it just sometimes these take a little bit of time for like somebody who's a new athlete to establish what these effort levels are as well.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have to start to learn this.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not as intuitive for a brand new athlete, but I don't know what how do you define it?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Curious.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I think I think of zone four as like you said, somewhere between that 10K to half marathon effort.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's probably closer to the 10K effort than it would be the half marathon effort.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, unless you're Christian Blumenfeld, who at at Nice this year did the the half marathon portion of the 70.3 in about an hour and ten minutes.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the guy he's yeah it is ridiculous.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or like some of your elite rather is marathon or like half marathon.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Half marathon, yeah.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: That that's where I I I tend to think it's like, okay, well, then the 10K is probably at the low end of zone four where the half marathon might be closer to the or the the other way.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: The 10K is upper zone four, the half marathon is kind of like low zone four, high zone three, so it's like right right in that area.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of my big gear work on the bike is is zone four, is zone four effort in terms of power.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do I don't think I've ever done any training in using heart rate zones.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just I don't use them.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't find them particularly reliable, which is why that that experiment that I did with the Morpheus system really didn't do me much good.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I wasn't even using it for higher zones.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was just using it today, today to see how it changed my zone too.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the time I was I was actually in that moment I was doing that, was really focusing on a base phase of training before now was I think that was before New York City.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I I signed up for it and I was focusing on this base over the summer.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I was trying to get or in this the spring, summer, fall time, I was trying to get this base training and I was doing a little bit more in that zone too.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was probably doing more of an 80-20 at the time.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't even paying that much attention to the zones it gave me for the I just did my other workouts that were in higher zones at whatever you you know, my pacing or whatever other way I RPE.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I was using it to sort of see day to day how the heart rate was changing.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I honestly thought it was helpful.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the, like I said last time, the biggest thing that it showed me was day to day based off of inputs of how well I slept, what my training was like the day before, uh HRV, you know, all these other inputs that it's asking for, like how am I actually subjectively feeling that day?
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: It would spit out a heart rate.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I I thought it was actually pretty good most of the time.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: But what it taught me was that these calculations based off of max heart rate can are probably what somewhat, if that's all you're basing it off of, like I did this like 220 minus my age, and that's my max heart rate, and then I did some sort of percentage of that, that's probably not even really help helpful for like day to day, because it changes.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of the heart rate zones, percentages, and things will change based off of all these other inputs and how hot it is.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so many variables that I just kind of I think it was helpful for me to be able to stay in zone two, which was my goal for that.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't, it just taught me how how that changes so much day to day that I was kind of like, wow, this is very difficult to to define, you know, day to day with these zones.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't use percentage of max heart rate either.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: I just basically have an RPE and a and a pace, sort of a somewhat of a pace goal, but I I tried to to focus on the pace goal a bit loosely because there are days where again, yeah, be because of this change day to day, there are days where that like it maybe I'm trying to hit my half marathon pace, sick or or 10K-ish pace to be in this zone.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel great and I'm I'm doing, you know, I'm I feel like I'm in that zone four and I'm I'm kind of hitting closer to maybe my 10K pace.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's days it's really closer to maybe half marathon or marathon pace because of the effort.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel more fatigued, or there's, you know, so I try to base it off of that.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it's challenging.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do say if we it would be fantastic because it is, I think the lactate threshold, that that sort of upper lactate threshold, that four millimoles per liter, and sometimes is defined a little bit higher than that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: And but I think it's about that, you know, past that is kind of where we're in that zone.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that would be helpful.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: But like I said, unless you're an elite athlete and you have somebody testing your finger after every interval session to see where you're at, I mean, those black tape meters cost two or three hundred dollars, and then you have to get the strips, and then you have to actually prick your finger.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so to actually like know exactly that you're in this zone would be very hard.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of this is just doing your best to manage to listen to your body.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think most of the time, as long as we're listening, our body's telling us where we're at.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: It does take newer athletes have a harder time with this.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes I think if you're just starting out, maybe it is helpful to establish a max heart rate and do some of that, just know roughly where you should be, but it isn't going to be accurate all the time.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it does get a little harder to establish the zones.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what I want also people to know is that there's no easy way to do that.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you just have to sort of do your best and in day-to-day off of most recent race paces and then off of off of RPE and how you're how you're feeling that day.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is where the lactate is really starting to accumulate.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're not able to clear it like we were in zone two and maybe a little bit in zone three.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's the body's not clearing it quite so quickly.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that byproduct of that, it is starting to accumulate.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that is actually a good thing because as that's happening, the body is now adapting.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, that's kind of the goal of this to be able to adapt to be able to clear and utilize lactate better at these higher intensities.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is one of the big benefits of lactate threshold training.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: You actually do have increased mitochondrial density or more mitochondria.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is where the benefits of zone four and zone two overlap.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: They both help improve mitochondrial, the the increase of mitochondria, which are the powerhouse of our cells.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they help with both of those energy systems help there.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um there's some enzyme activity that kind of just help uh breaking down fuel, so carbs and fat, that that there's some benefits there to fuel utilization in this zone as we're accumulating these byproducts.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's a little bit of this acidosis that occurs that can slow us down.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so the body's becoming better at clearing that because it's clearing lactate better when we train in this zone.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it helps us enhance VO2 max and probably improve our running economy because now we're able to utilize oxygen better.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't accumulate so much carbon dioxide, which is also not good.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we're actually able to breathe and utilize that oxygen better and utilize fuel better, which improves our running economy.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: So those are all so many benefits of zone four, right?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where I think there's a lot of that's where some we'll talk about the pushback a little bit between it's almost like you have two different camps.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's funny to me, I'm like, why can't we all just agree that all of these zones are are good for us?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like you have those people that are like, you've got to do the four by four Norwegian method, you have to do this high lactate threshold training, and that's all you do.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, you don't do any other, you know, you do this, or you do only zone two.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I feel like it's almost not always, but I feel like there's these two sort of camps of, you know, they're competing or something.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and anyways, we'll talk more about that.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I don't know.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have anything to add to our zone four discussion or do we want to move on to the final zone?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I don't think I have anything.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're already in another one.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: I like zone four stuff.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think if I if I had to look at the proportion of the intensity distribution for training plans that I that I build for athletes, I would probably say close to like 15, maybe upwards of 20% of the training intensity is zone four stuff.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I I like that zone.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it definitely fosters a development of speed and power.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I I there's a lot that you can get from that that you cannot get from from any of the other zones.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Then I was just thinking about this for my HIROX, and I'm gonna talk about this in my next episode.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: My third HyROX episode is how I've been thinking a lot about the training for that recently, and and the fact that the Hyrox itself is almost like in this zone four almost the entire time.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: So depending on how long you take to do the race, but for elites who do it, it's like just under an hour, maybe a little over an hour.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: F for myself, I'm hoping somewhere between an hour 15 and an hour 30.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's going to be almost exclusively sort of in this lactate threshold.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's gonna be kind of almost coming in and out of some trying not to go too far into zone five for very long and maybe sometimes going into zone three, but it's a lot of time.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of my training and my running training has been sort of starting to focus predominantly on almost all lactate threshold and some easy zone two just in my recovery days.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's a big part of my training and and preparation for that.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: So very, I think it's a very important zone.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: So anyways, let's move on to zone five.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: So this is our anaerobic zone.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is really almost as we're touching on almost our max heart rate.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this is like when you're really pushing, this is when you're doing I don't know, 200s, 100s, all out.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're just going.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're not, you're you're going in this as fast as you can.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this is like, yeah, top end speed, like where your power output is probably at the very top and you're really kind of pushing your VO2 max.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this zone is important, but we really have to be careful here.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to be spending a lot of time here because there's a lot of pot potential risk for fatigue and potential risk for just like the the the neuromuscular fatigue on its own can be quite risky.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this is but I mean, I think being in this zone, sometimes there are some real benefits to it, but it does one I think of is mental toughness.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's a I'm like you just spend some time here and and it and it's so hard.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of build a little bit of toughness from it.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: But also like anaerobic capacity, power, you do increase BO2 max spending some time here.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: It is the most fatiguing zone.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think sometimes you know when you're running at these faster intensities, it can, yeah, help can help our ability to to be more a little bit more powerful or to to increase power.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a cost to it.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the cost really here is that there's a lot of those byproducts we're talking about accumulate very quickly.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: We also deplete nutrients or our you know, our fuel sources kind of deplete very quickly.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: Glycogen is depleted, you know, a little more quickly in in zone four and zone five.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there's accumulation of not only lactate but CO2 and urea, just a byproduct of sort of the breakdown of protein and breakdown of other other things as we're trying to produce energy for this system, which is a very energetic demanding system.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it does cause a lot of like cis nervous system fatigue.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if I was kind of trying to think about how to describe this.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think most people know where their zone five is.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is all out, right?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I I was doing like yesterday, I had a high rocks workout where we were doing, we did six like 100 meter sprints.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then we did a workout that involved box jumps and burpees for 15 minutes and then six 100 meter sprints.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just tapped after that workout, I could tell my nervous system was just like, I I don't know how to, it's hard for me to describe it, but it was like if you had asked me to do any other, like if I had to run from a bear or something, I wouldn't have been able to do it.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was tapped out, you know what I mean?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: I would have been eaten because there was no, I didn't have any left in me.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: My phosphocreatine system was, you know, like I had depleted everything.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't any any it wasn't restoring anytime soon.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: I need I was gonna need a day or two.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just that it's just and that wasn't a whole lot of work at that zone.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just sought me.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't spend a lot of time, but I think there's some benefit here.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think for athletes like an Iron Man or Marathon, you might do some strides or a few of a few quick bursts at this occasionally just to kind of touch it, but you're not gonna spend a lot of time here versus like maybe if you're training for like an 800 meter race or mile or faster, that sort of pace, or maybe a 5k, you would be touching this a little bit fast a little bit more often, but it is gonna be very fatiguing.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have any thoughts on zone five.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: I use it sparingly.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is probably probably accounts for less than less than five percent of of the total of a total training plan, whether it's like for a week or not.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: I do like using it for the bike.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's it's kind of it's got less cost for for for uh for athletes.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: Zone five running is is really is really hard on the body and takes a big toll.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Zone five on the bike, not so much.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a it's a definitely it's definitely what I would consider to be a safer, uh, a safer method for implementing that type of of training and engagement of the aerobic system.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Especially if we're working on things like increasing cadence and and the turnover rate for for a cyclist feet.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if we really want to to really hone that in and get their cadence up, we'll do a lot of these spin-ups, zone five, 30-second to 60-second intervals with you know equivalent equivalent rest breaks in between.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're doing 30-second spin-ups, we may do 60 seconds of nice easy recovery or you know, minute on the minute and and do and do that.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I I will say that I don't use hardly any zone five training for my runners.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just because of the the athletes that I work with, it it takes too much of a toll.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: It it opens up their their risk profile for for injury.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of my athletes are going longer, so they're not they're not out there running miles, and I'm not working with track athletes.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there's I don't see a whole lot of benefit in spending, you know, a significant amount of time in that zone because that's not something that we're going to capitalize on on race day.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, strides and things like that, even those strides aren't like full out sprints, you know.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's that gradual progression where you never really even reach like a full out effort, even in the last like you know, five five meters of of a stride, you know.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't I don't implement it in my track workouts or anything like that.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't like them.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's too much risk involved.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it depends, yeah, it depends a lot on the track.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: It really depends on the athlete in where it's like.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because I love I I love going fast.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I just liked it because I love the feeling of being fast and being able to like and I'm not a sprinter, so you know, if you compare me and my my sprinting ability to some high-level athlete, I'm like, you know, very poor in that regard.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I love bringing in some fast-paced stuff, but I've been running for a while.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have probably the capacity built up the tendon and ligament capacity, like the the strength to be able to take on some sprinting work and and not get injured.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: I but I do think this is where if people are overdoing it, they can really be at risk for like tendon ruptures and really catastrophic things sometimes.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we just want to be, yeah, we want to be careful.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't, I don't ever usually, yeah, if I have a unless I'm working with like a 5k runner, maybe faster, or of really high level like endurance athlete who's maybe there's times I might place some of this in there.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: But for the most part, yeah, I agree.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Most of my athletes who are most of the time it's just, yeah, it's it's a little bit of a risky zone.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it just depends.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think zone one and zone five are not that zone one's at all risky, but maybe if you're just doing a lot of that and your your running stride might might suffer, but we don't spend a lot of time in zone one or zone five.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really the zones in between that we're spending the majority of our time.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that we we're we've continued to set the table.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we spent a whole episode on like what zone two was, and then now we spent a whole episode on all the other zones, which which makes sense.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so now I think the next episode that we that we do should be discussing the the three claims because now we we've we've set the table and so now everybody understands what the zones are, w what are the you know the benefits and costs of being in each one.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it makes it makes understanding the claims a little bit easier to do.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I I say we just we polish this thing off and we'll come back next time with the with the final assessment on the efficacy of the of a predominantly zone two training plan and and whether it's it's yielding the results that everybody claimed would would materialize by following that method.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: For some people who already know their zones, maybe the this is a review or they they could skip this, but I do think it's a helpful review for for most people to listen to.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully that it's been helpful and I think yeah, it does have set I think we've really set the stage for our final piece of this um with the claims.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm I feel good about it.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so I I think listen we're gonna wrap this thing up.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: So this has been episode 124 of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast, where we've talked about zone-based training, what it is, what are the different models that that are out there, uh, what it what each of these zones mean in terms of their overall training volume and progress and what they're looking to achieve and and what kind of adaptations they're trying to build.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that this has provided a pretty solid understanding as we progress this conversation.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: So let's do a little bit of a housekeeping.
• 1:03:31
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• 1:03:37
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• 1:03:51
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• 1:03:55
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• 1:04:06
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• 1:04:28
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• 1:04:51
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• 1:04:54
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• 1:04:57
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• 1:06:00
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• 1:06:11
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  SPEAKER_00: Both of us have tons of other content that's on our websites.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have blogs and videos and coaching philosophies and and all kinds of other stuff that will help you along in your journey.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know I have a whole like resource section that's that's on my website that's just giving you tons of other content and free information.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: So check us out.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: Reach out if you have questions and want to further the conversation.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to talk to you.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that wraps us up.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: So again, this has been episode 124 of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast, where we talked about zone-based training.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've been your host, Coach Justin, along with Coach Katie.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys for listening.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time, we'll talk to you later.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye, everyone.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: That wraps up today's episode of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Endurance sports have a way of teaching us patience, humility, and resilience.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: Lessons that carry far beyond the workout.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: Progress in endurance sports doesn't come from shortcuts.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from consistency, discipline, and doing the work when it's not glamorous.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your endurance journey, keep trusting the process and honoring the work you put in each day.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: If today's episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone to help on their endurance journey.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to join the conversation on our social sites to help build and foster a community where we all learn and support one another.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back with more stories and insights from Coach Justin and Katie.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: Until then, visit the podcast website at the endurance athlete journey.buzzsprout.com for more episodes from the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: Have questions or comments about the podcast?
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to send us an email at the endurance athlete journey at gmail.com.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: For all things coaching, visit Coach Katie at FuelThenumber Two Run.com and Coach Justin at taboolarassa racing.com.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: Again, thank you for listening to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast and remember to find joy in the journey.