Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 2 Episode 7 – Chris VandeLinde | Thicker Skin, Softer Heart, Tighter Lips
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Chris Vandalen, welcome back to the Better Preaching Podcast. Chris VandeLinde: Thank you, man. G glad to be here. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, when we last talked, and then we talked a little bit off camera about some of the guys that you're in relationship with and the way that's helped you, not just in terms of your preaching, but also just in terms of persevering. I'd love to hear more about that because it's it's a familiar refrain that I hear from guys who are preaching and in it for the long haul, is that they're they're not alone. They're doing it together with others. Chris VandeLinde: Yeah, what I would say is, you know, I've been preaching full time eleven years. I've been in ministry twenty going on twenty-seven years. And I'd I think it was part of just my makeup. I think it was part of my training at Bible college as well, is you don't do this alone. This is not a solo sport. nothing about the church was ever meant to be that way, and nothing about ministry was meant to be that way. And I would say to the Thanks of the people that helped lead me in the early days and have helped encourage me along the way. I've never felt like I was alone ever. I've never feel like I'm alone. I really don't. And I think that was poured into me and my family and and training as well. So I have pursued those relationships over the over the whole time I've been in ministry to try to talk to people who are not only obviously building relationships in my church, but for my well-being and growth, pursued coaching and relational coaching. connections beyond that to keep me fresh and to keep me two two major things is keep me from doing dumb stuff and keep me in the game for the long haul. I know the enemy wants to just pick off the gazelle that's running behind the pack, right? And I just I'm not gonna be that I don't want to be that gazelle. I want to be middle or front of the pack where I'm I'm I'm not seen on National Geographic at all. So that's been the goal. You know, I'm currently in a two different what we call covenant groups. I work with Covenant Connections. It's a great ministry, an incredible ministry for every every single preacher should be in a covenant group and have people around them that care more about who they are than the name of their church. And those guys I've been in a group for eleven years with a handful of guys led by Cal Jernigan and a few guys that I've been in for a long time, who we text and call periodically, I mean almost every day. But then when really big stuff's happening, we are right there for each other. We've been going through a season right now. One of our guys, Scott Beckenauer, who's a long-term original member of that group, been preaching in Omaha for like a hundred years. He is going through a massive, massive challenge in physical right now. He's in a recovery center for a physical issue that they it was like a to one in two million Kind of physical thing he went through. Well, we're texting about that every day and we're praying for each other all the time. We're reminding him all the time, man, you're not alone going through this. The guy who's told everybody they're not alone forever has people in his corner saying you're not alone. So at my other group, I helped lead a group as well because I quit some boards and some other things to help lead a group. And I'm in the third year with that group, and two of those guys are this summer transitioning into lead pastor roles, walking with them through all the exciting and challenging days. So I could go on for Hours about that. It has been an absolute godsend for my ministry and my soul over the last 27 years. Dr. Frank Weller: Why is it do you think that guys don't get involved in a group like that? Chris VandeLinde: The biggest reason I the biggest reasons I hear are I don't know how, I don't know who to get, like I don't have anybody to get, and I don't really have time. Some people just feel like, I mean, we we take two weeks a year and we are together in person and we do not miss. Like we miss our own stuff before we miss that, because that is an absolute fixed thing. So I think the time commitment, there's a little bit of a cost involved when you're traveling and you know doing those things. And I think the biggest reason that maybe isn't spoken is the the reality that like when somebody gets behind the curtain, they see all of you. And it it's a hard thing to do to let people behind that curtain and let them see all of you and let them have a kind of a key to that room where they can go in there anytime and go, hey, Frank. Like we need to talk about that. What's going on with this? And I I don't prayerfully they don't have to do that very often, but I know that they're right there if they need to go in there. And that's hard, I think. The enemy doesn't want us to let people that close. They we want to put up kind of a an MM sort of shell that think that we're protected, but really we're not. And so those are some of the reasons that I think people list and and mention. Dr. Frank Weller: I'd love to include that information about Covenant Connections in the show notes. So man, yeah, get that to me and and we'll make that available. Chris VandeLinde: Please, please do. Yeah, and there are groups starting all the time. And honestly, what right now, there are more group leaders ready to launch groups than there are pastors and ministers who are able to get into those groups, which is a great problem to have. We've never had a leadership w heavyweight right now. There's guys that have been in groups and they're like, hey, I'll do a group. Well, there's more of those guys than there are guys to put in the groups right now. So would love to get that news out for folks. Dr. Frank Weller: Now it's not the primary purpose of your covenant group, but it does have an impact on your preaching too, doesn't it? Chris VandeLinde: It does, and it's it's not a cohort. It's not compare your notes and how are you doing with how you craft your sermon. It's not really that. It's really about your heart and your life. How are you doing? How are you walking with Jesus? What's going on with your family? It's personal. But you can't help but, you know, when we build these relationships, I have gained more from those guys. Peripherally about preaching and leadership than I ever could have gained doing another, you know, degree or or some other things. I mean, because it's so practical and so customized to the questions I'm asking. So I've gained a ton about preaching and leadership, just talking with and walking with those guys. When I run into a hard situation, you know, I'll I'll call one or those get one or two of those guys and go, hey, how would you handle this? Or what have you done? Or what are some best practices that are and as God's led you and Morphed you, how have you done this in the past? So it is immensely helpful in every area of leadership and ministry for me, including preaching. Dr. Frank Weller: Love it. I just love the whole idea of being in relationship with other people. And this feels like a good time to pause and thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College, because if you want to answer God's call to preaching with greater confidence and deeper biblical understanding, our Master of Arts and Practical Ministries designed for today's church leaders. It's rooted in scripture, but this program blends biblical depth with practical training that prepares you for rear. Real world ministry challenges. It's affordable, flexible, and Christ-centered, enabling you to study online wherever you're serving. You can get more details at glcc.edu. And one of the things I love about that program, Chris, is that it's it's it's synchronous, which means the cohort comes together at a specific time. So even though it's online and students can learn from anywhere, they're developing those relationships with people in the class, which Chris VandeLinde: Right. Dr. Frank Weller: many of those are lifelong relationships. I'd love to hear more about the four Ps of preaching that you you that that are in the forefront of your mind, both as you're preparing sermons and as you're delivering sermons. Talk to us about those four Ps and and why they why they guide your preaching. Chris VandeLinde: Yeah, and I can't help but make them all start with the same letter and you know, there's four of I mean, I you know, preachers preachers' old habits die hard. I a few years ago, as I was really trying to grow, one of the challenges that I had from my elders was to really work on the craft, just to get better at the communication side. Relational side and even communicating genuinely, like high marks for that. They gave me a little bit of coaching on hey, the craft side, like get better at actually delivering the sermons and work on that, like lean into that. I I got, I feel like God kind of gave me four areas that I really really needed to delve into. And so these are not exhaustive, but I think they are helpful. And they do start with P. So the four P's that I remind myself of all the time that preaching has to be is first of all personal, second of all passionate, third of all practical, and fourth of all punctual. So real quick, personal, if we're preaching and it's not personal, then we're just telling stories. And I kind of jokingly say and a little bit serious say people can read the Bible on their own. Like they can go read them. If you're just communicating the Bible to them, they have audio Bible now. They can hit play on their phone. They don't need you to just read them the Bible. They need you to make it personal. They need to understand how it relates to their life. They need to understand how it what it means to you. How are you seeing God move in power in your life? How can we expect Him to move? So it's gotta be very personal. And I feel like that's a big part of what our job and calling is, is to be personal with our preaching. The second one, second, go ahead. Dr. Frank Weller: Okay, let me stop you there 'cause I just I love that because in order for the sermon to be personal, the the the preacher has to put in the seat time. They that that's one of the problems. The biggest problem with plagiarism isn't laziness or isn't inauthenticity. It's that you you've taken someone else's information, so it's not yours. It's not personal. And it I mean, in order for it to be personal, you've actually got to do the work. Chris VandeLinde: Sure. Yeah, I c I can tell your fishing stories, but I can't feel them. You know, I I can't it's not the same thing. And I think even a step beyond that is like the personal side of preaching is going, Are you wrestling with Jesus on what you're communicating to your church? You know, I always try to look in the mirror. With and figuratively look in the mirror with what I'm saying to my church. And I'll even say to my church, this is hard for me to preach because I am I have to listen to myself right now. Like I am walking in this with you. This is really hard to do. So challenging sometimes. My wife's really good about going, have you have you really wrestled that down? You know, are you making this personal? Because if you're living it and breathing it, the Holy Spirit will overflow out of you and connect to the hearts of his people in ways that we cannot put words on. If you're swimming in the Holy Spirit in your delivery of God's word. And if you're not, you're just communicating really good things that may not have supernatural impact. So it's got to be personal. Dr. Frank Weller: Gotta be personal. All right, let's hear the second P. Chris VandeLinde: Second P is it's gotta be practical and hopefully it goes without saying, but I think there's a long season of preaching that is truthful but not practical. And in the world in which we live today, you know, it's gotta be practical. We've got to help make sense of things for people, and it it's not really dumbing it down. Some people say like it's dumbing down the word. I I just think that is not true. Like the entire all the epistles are A way to say, let's take a supernatural, massive, historical movement of God and make it really practical. Like, why else would Paul talk about the aroma of Christ? Like, why would he use the the idea of aroma? Or why would he use the idea of the dividing wall of the curtain like he himself is our peace because he's broken down something that was a barrier? He uses illustrations all through the epistles to make practical things that hurt our heads. And The theology of God or theology should kind of hurt our heads. He's way bigger. We can't even understand all of his ways. So our job is to make it practical and to help people take the steps into the character and identity that God's called us to. Dr. Frank Weller: All right, next P. Chris VandeLinde: Next P is practic no, that's practical. that was it. I this next P is passionate. passionate. I feel like this is one thing that is maybe a little bit of a natural gifting, but I do feel like it's important for every person. Do we really believe and show with emotion that we are really passionate about the thing we're talking about? Dr. Frank Weller: Passionate. Chris VandeLinde: When somebody's telling a story that is really I mean, if somebody gets rear-ended on the on the interstate and they're talking to the state trooper, man, they are passionate about the fact that they were following the speed limit and they stopped when they were supposed, it was definitely the person behind them. There, you can tell what they're saying without hearing their words. Is that true with us in our preaching? And I don't mean that we have to be at a 10 out of 10 intensity all the time, but we've got to be clearly passionate about God's word and about what he's calling us to. For people to then want to take the steps we're calling them to take. Dr. Frank Weller: How do you feel that passion in personally? Chris VandeLinde: I think it kind of goes back to where I started with the personal side. Like we've gotta be really living in it. we've gotta be really swimming in it. If if my passion is not matching the passion that God has in his word. And the passion that the writers have about the character and nature of God or whatever it is, then I'm doing a disservice to my job in preaching. There's a a call for me to carry passion. And I think when I'm passionate, and passion sometimes is emotional, sometimes passion is firm, sometimes passion is very gracious. I mean, this is not just intensity. We're talking about like swimming in and making clear in our communication. the passion that we feel and the passion that God's word is giving us in our delivery. And I think there's work to be done in helping those of us that are more stoic to lean into that, those of us that are more intense to kind of find a rhythm to ebb and flow a bit more to communicate the passion of his word. Dr. Frank Weller: When you think about passionate preaching, are there specific preachers that you admire who come to mind? Chris VandeLinde: Yeah, I mean I there's a guy named Derwin Gray, former NFL guy. He's kind of a big name guy, African American guy. He has the advantage of having a little bit of the African American culture behind him with some of the way he delivers, but he's very pass I mean it's like It it just comes so tangibly to him. I'll give you another example is Ben Merrill. If you I don't know if you ever knew Ben Merrill. Ben Merrill preached in in St. Louis and LA for a long time, deceased now. One of the things I remember in hearing Ben Merrill, who was a pretty stoic wearing a suit and tie, you know, old school preacher guy, very clear outline. I always could feel the love of Jesus that Ben had as he communicated because he walked that closely with him. It's kind of like the is it Acts 4, you know, like it was clear these men walked with Jesus thing. How is it clear they walk with Jesus? There's something about the way they're communicating and living that is contagious enough. And I want my preaching to be contagious. I want to feel and live in the Word in such a way that if that just spilled over, then people would be swimming in the Word. And that that's gotta be the way that we approach it. And we've gotta craft it to where sometimes it's just crafting our hearts to where we are feeling it and loving it. Even if we're going, this is a hard teaching, man. This is a hard teaching. It is so difficult to receive this from the Lord. Well, that's passionate. Like it's it allows you to have that passion. So anyway, those are a couple of examples that come to mind right away. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Chris VandeLinde: and I you I mentioned Craig Rochelle earlier. It's kind of an easy target. One thing I love about Craig is this the passion and authenticity he he lives with. So he you know, he is clearly passionate about God's word every time he communicates. And I just think that's an important characteristic. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, Ben was great. In fact, we one of the segments we do on the Better Preaching Podcast is called Great Sermons of the Restoration Movement. And Ben has made an appearance on that. And wouldn't surprise me if he makes another appearance or two just because, man, the guy could flat preach. Chris VandeLinde: He could and it and it w I mean I think that's a good example and and for what you're we're talking about because it's not just charisma. Like most of his delivery was not he's never screaming at you. He's not a crier. You know, it it's not emotional only. It is passionate that is coming from him walking with Jesus and communicating clearly God's truth. And I think we've got to kind of put that as one of our markers. Is what we're communicating, are we communicating passion behind the realities that we're teaching and and sharing? Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's helpful delineation, Chris, because it passion doesn't always have to come out as intensity. And there are there are some preachers who are gonna be more intense. They're gonna they're gonna lean forward in the pulpit and and they may raise their voice and and the their pitch may and their pace may accelerate. But that wasn't bent, but you're right. You knew that there was a deep there was a depth to his preaching that that spoke to the the passion that he had for the gospel. fourth P go. This one's yeah, and I thought that was interesting, punctual. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about that. Chris VandeLinde: The fourth one is pun punctual and I thought it was interesting when I kind of Felt like God was giving that to me. And a part of what that is is I spent a lot of years in student ministry. And I would, just in transparency, I could, you know, this would kind of be the entire length of my sermon. I'd fold it over, and this was like my general notes, and it would say, you know, tell the jet ski story, and then I just tell the story, you know. And and what I've really, and I do not think this is only for everybody, this is just how God is shaping me, and then I'll get to what I think is general. I have wordsmith my sermons over the last 11 years from very little to almost the entire thing written, wordsmith, written out, so that I have already said it once. Now if I adjust it a little bit in the flow, that's fine. And certainly want the Holy Spirit to take that and however, but I I want to make sure that I'm saying things enough times that they make an impact, but not so many times that you're now done listening. So there is a sense where and we can joke about Paul and what's the guy's name in the window, Eutychus or that fell out of the window. Paul is preaching so long, you know, like the apostle Paul did not have punctuality as one of his values at that season of his ministry. I mean Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Right, right. Chris VandeLinde: Punctuality in our culture has to matter. We're in a we're in a shorts, you know, TikTok, you know, reels. We can fight that stuff or we can embrace the reality that we are given a window for people to listen. So say what you need to say in a succinct way within a timeline that they can receive it, so that we can have a chance to say it again next week. So I think punctuality is is a critical piece of modern preaching. Dr. Frank Weller: See, I thought you were going to go to a different direction here. I thought punctuality was going to refer to something that more along the lines of relevance, that it's it's timely preaching or it's just in time kind of preaching, but you're literally talking about, hey, the sermon needs to be X number of minutes long. Chris VandeLinde: Yes, I think that's definitely true, but even more than just the length of the sermon. punctually it punctuality in in some ways in preaching to me is saying what you need to say succinctly and clearly and don't take forever to do it because you don't have the attention span. People literally aren't trained to listen as long as some people want to say something. So you lose the ability to be listened to anymore. And if you can use the illustration of parenting, where you know, you can talk to your kids about the thing they did wrong. And if you say it in two sentences, that's probably what you need to do. As a preacher, I like to explain it for a really long time to my kids. And I see their eyes roll into the back of their head. Well, I've lost the audience, even though they're trying to be respectful and sitting on the couch. I lost the audience a long time ago. And part of our job is just like I use the Apostle Paul. I sort of joking about him. Well, what one thing he did amazingly is his you know he was really relevant to saying things in the way and to the people that he was speaking to. And I don't know if that had to do with the length or not, but it certainly had to do with like saying things in a way that and and succinctly enough that they could receive it. And I think that's a big part of what we got to do. And it certainly relates to the relevance as well. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Yeah, in a previous episode, Daniel Overdorf, who teaches homiletics at Johnston University, he and I talked about this. A concept that both of us got from Fred Craddock is this idea of density. And this sounds like a little bit like what you're talking about. That look, if I if I choose a marshmallow and a marshmallow size rock and I throw both of them at you, only one of them is going to really make a significant impact, and that's the rock. And that's because it is dense. It's it's that succinctness that you're talking about. And and I think One of the challenges f of preaching, the more you pursue that kind of density or that succinctness or as you call it, punctuality, you're gonna leave some really good clippings on the f on the floor of the study, some stuff that's but boy, this is really good material. And should I leave this out or shouldn't I leave it out? But at the end of the day, when you have something that's that's denser and more succinct, it can have a more significant impact. Chris VandeLinde: I think so, and that is a hard lesson to learn for preachers. I I always want to just say it all. And one of the things is if we're in this for the long haul, if we're on a marathon, if we're actually wanting to lead our church over the long haul, shouldn't we always try to leave them wanting more? So we have the ability to continue to speak in instead of the opposite, which is he finished that sermon a while ago, even though he preached five more minutes. Dr. Frank Weller: That's right. That's right. I talked to a a children's minister just earlier today, who's going to be preaching his first sermon ever in August. And he said, What advice do you have for me? And I told him, Less is more. Because what yes, that's right. Well, especially when you're the children's minister and the senior minister goes 35 minutes and does some seemingly effortlessly. And so you're thinking, well, I have to preach 35 minutes too. But boy, you're gonna get up there and what's gonna happen is you're gonna preach 45 minutes. Chris VandeLinde: It's so hard to b it's so hard to believe that when you're the communicator, but it's so true. Dr. Frank Weller: And you're only going to say about 15 minutes worth of worth of content. So I love that. So personal, passionate, practical, punctual. I'm also interested to hear about your three rules for ministry in 2026. But before I do, I I want to just pause again and thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. Look, if you're if you're looking for online ministry training, but you're leery of degree mills that farm out instruction to faceless authors and tedious message boards, you need to check out GLCC. Its remote master's degree in practical theology brings you face to face with passionate professors and fellow students for real-time instruction and genuine community. You can make friends, ask questions, and get real-time feedback from accessible professors who love God and revere scripture. Students get practical and they go deep at GLCC. Chris, talk to me about these three rules for ministry that God gave you here in 2026. Chris VandeLinde: Yeah, I literally I'm at my desk. I can't reach it, but I have a sticky note, a post-it note that I wrote these on in January. Some guys have a process of like you know, closing out the year and they write up a whole review and it's like this amazing like reflection and it I'm always like so impressed and intimidated both by that. I'm really not that guy. I'm just looking forward to Christmas Eve and then taking a nap and then, you know, going to be with some family and eating a lot of sweets. I mean I I'm not trying to be unspiritual. I just that's my brain just goes to whatever tomorrow is. I have to force myself to slow down and reflect. And I usually do a better job of that. when the year begins, where I can kind of look back a little before we're looking all the way forward. And I don't mean that I mean obviously we're already planning for January, but I g I got to January this year and really started thinking about some of the challenges we were facing in ministry, some of the uphill battles I feel like I'm facing, some of the opportunities is really more of what's in front of us. The season that our church is in is a a growth season with a growth season becomes more people with more stuff that hasn't been redeemed. And so there's just more things going on all around us. And even a few things that kind of came at me pretty personally that felt very unfair. Sometimes they're very fair. And this time they were very unfair. And I know that it was just before Christmas Eve, and the enemy is just trying to really knock me back. And they came, and there's a couple of little windows that I feel like are like the vulnerable sort of kinks in my armor. And they came right through there. And I just started praying through, like, Lord, what do you need for me to be as a leader? not obviously as a servant and follower, but how do you need me to lead better and differently into this year as your communicator of your word and primary speaker in this church? And this is what came to me, and these are not rocket science, but this is what God gave me for this. He said to me essentially over a couple of days of prayer: I need you to have thicker skin, I need you to have a softer heart, and I need you to have tighter lips. So the thicker skin, kind of obvious, you know. I I like suck it up a little, you know, be more. more like the Elijah on Mount Carmel than Elijah on whining and whimpering after. Like recognize that I'm I'm fighting the battles, like I'm doing all the work already, and you're gonna take a hit here and there. And that's part of what you signed up for. You chose to lose when you said yes to leading a ship that says suffering is gain. So have thicker skin with what the enemy's gonna shoot at you. You cannot be knocked back by some of this stuff that's gonna cost you two days because of some emotional attack from a person that doesn't have even an investment in your life. So have thicker skin, secondly, a softer heart. I think sometimes the thicker skin can also come with a tightening of a hardening of a heart, and those should not be parallel. The skin should be thicker, and simultaneously the heart should be softer. We've got to make sure that we're like thinking about that. The passage is at Ezekiel 20, I think it is, where you know God talks about, I want to take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I want to give you a softer heart. And in ministry, it should always be softening toward the people that are broken, hurting, wounded, and far from God, not hardened against the people that are hurtful, mean, mean, and pushing against all the things of God. Like that should, they're not my enemy. They might be the enemy of God, but he's got a plan for that. And so my job is to be the hands and feet of Jesus and have a softer and more tender heart. And then the third thing for this year for me was tighter lips. And tighter lips for me just meant, you know what? My I'm a verbal processor, probably obvious as we're listening to this. Like I just like to talk it out and verbalize it. And I think a big part of what God was trying to tell me was like, you've just gotta like talk to me and not have to share that with multiple other people because now you're kind of bringing them into some things that really you should have just worked out with me. You're really some of these things, you're gonna work them out with me, and that's gonna be what you need. You don't need to take everything. So tighter lips and not necessarily sharing, oversharing as much with certain people. And that's obviously like nuanced a little bit in my life. But those are the things God kind of gave me for this year. Dr. Frank Weller: It makes me think of Friday Night Lights, Chris. Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose. Right. I I I think th Thicker Skin, Softer Heart, Tighter Lips to me sounds like the title of your next book. Chris VandeLinde: Yeah. Yeah. Great movie. Maybe so. First book. First next and first. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Well, listen, man, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. And it's been you know, I I wish we were close enough geographically or ran into same circles where we'd get to hang out some, but to be able to touch base with you from time to time over these last few years has been a lot of fun. And to have you on the podcast to talk about preaching, I know the better preaching podcast listeners are gonna benefit from that. Let's let's get together again. Let's do it again sometime. Chris VandeLinde: Happy too. Happy to do it anytime. I love preaching. I love what God has given us. I mean, what an incredible gift God has given us in our calling. He didn't just call us to something. He gifted us something that we get to do in his name for his glory. And can't wait to do more of it. And can't wait to link arms with all the folks on the podcast to just say, let's get after this thing in Jesus' name. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I love it. Chris Vandalen, lead pastor of Cornerstone Christian Church in Shiloh, Illinois. Appreciate you being on the podcast. Looking forward to sharing this with our Better Preaching Podcast listeners. Until next time, remember that better preaching has a bigger impact.