Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Neal Foard and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker

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Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Neal Foard and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

0:16
Welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building Profitable
0:20
Connections, the show where the right conversation
0:22
can open the right door. I'm your host, Michael
0:26
Foreman. Let me ask you this. Why do some people
0:30
walk into a room and instantly connect while
0:33
others struggle to be remembered? It's not just
0:37
what they do. It's how they communicate. how
0:40
they meet people, how they make people feel.
0:43
My guest today believes two things drive powerful
0:47
relationships in business, storytelling and kindness.
0:52
Storytelling gives your message meaning and makes
0:55
you memorable. Kindness builds trust and keeps
1:00
relationships moving forward. We're diving into
1:03
how executives use stories to influence decisions,
1:06
why facts alone don't create connections, and
1:10
how something as simple as kindness can have
1:13
a real return in business. If you want to be
1:16
more persuasive, more memorable, and more trusted
1:19
in your conversations, this episode is for you.
1:23
I'd like to introduce to the podcast, Neil Ford.
1:26
He is an expert in his field, and I am actually
1:30
looking forward to this because I go around the
1:33
country and I talk about this very same thing.
1:37
So I'm very interested in hearing what he has
1:39
to say. So, Neil, how are you? Welcome to the
1:43
podcast. And why don't you give us a little cliff
1:45
notes of how you got where you are today? Yeah.
1:48
Thank you, Michael, for having me on. So I spent
1:51
30 years in advertising. I was on the creative
1:54
side of the business. I started as a copywriter
1:56
and over time I learned, I should say very quickly
2:00
I learned, I was not the most talented of the
2:02
creative people in any agency I worked at. So
2:06
just like somebody who doesn't have the benefit
2:08
of a beautiful face or a gorgeous body, I had
2:12
to learn other ways to hold people's attention.
2:15
And so I discovered Often people don't know a
2:20
good idea when they hear it. If everybody knew
2:22
a good idea when they heard it, we'd all run
2:24
movie studios and record labels. We would all
2:26
be early investors in Uber and Airbnb. But you
2:32
know what? People don't know a good idea when
2:34
they hear it. And it really requires us, if you're
2:38
selling a creative idea of any kind, to give
2:41
it its best possible day in court. So I learned
2:46
that early and wound up in a competitive industry,
2:49
getting good at telling the story of what the
2:51
idea was. And I discovered along with that discipline
2:55
that there's more to making a decision than just
2:59
the objective traits of whatever it is you're
3:01
there to sell. And that there is enormous profit
3:04
when people like you because they want to buy
3:08
from you. And I have lots of examples of that
3:12
from my own personal experience. And I've watched
3:14
it in the wild. And I see you nodding your head.
3:16
So yeah, you understand that too. Life gets so
3:18
much easier when people like you. So in my travels,
3:23
I did thousands and thousands of presentations
3:25
trying to sell creative ideas to people. And
3:28
I essentially distilled that 30 years of experience
3:31
down into a kind of 27 lesson. So where I am
3:36
today is that I take the old thing that I used
3:38
to do in the management training program at my
3:40
agency, Saatchi & Saatchi, and I offer that to
3:43
the public. And I'm happy to say that people
3:46
quite like it. Yes, it's something that is truly
3:50
needed, especially now. Nowadays, everybody relies
3:54
on AI and things like that. They forget all about
3:57
the personal touch. They forget all about the
4:00
relationship between two. people and you hit
4:05
it you said everybody knows you and likes you
4:08
but you're missing that one piece trust right
4:13
because there's a mantra in networking know you
4:16
like you trust you they'll do business with you
4:20
because nobody's going to do business with you
4:22
unless they trust you yeah it's much more efficient
4:26
it's much more efficient to build relationships
4:29
before you build profit I knew a very successful
4:33
car dealer whose unofficial motto was, I'll lose
4:35
a little money to make a friend. And the reason
4:38
is that when you have a business that requires
4:41
negotiation with every transaction, it is so
4:44
much easier and faster and more profitable to
4:48
just establish a relationship where I can trust
4:51
you and you can trust me. Let's not waste a bunch
4:53
of time trying to squeeze that extra nickel out
4:57
of each other. It's just too much energy. And
4:59
it's too much fun, by the way, to do business
5:01
with people you like. This is the part of the
5:05
formula that I call the return on investment
5:07
of kindness. The ROI of kindness is it doesn't
5:11
just benefit the person you're being kind to.
5:14
It benefits you, too, because it is exactly where
5:18
you were headed, which is because it builds trust
5:20
in people that are your clients, your customers,
5:23
your suppliers, even your colleagues. Every time
5:27
you are nice to people without having to be,
5:28
when you go that extra mile to make sure that
5:31
they know that there's a human being on the other
5:33
side of this transaction or sitting in the next
5:35
desk next to you, that you reassure them that
5:38
not everyone is out to get you and that maybe
5:41
life is worth living. Every time you do that,
5:44
you actually refill your own, you might call
5:47
it a sort of karma bank, a 401k of good Kearns
5:51
coming back to haunt you. I call it social capital.
5:57
You have social capital because what I teach,
6:02
what I teach the executives or teach a workforce
6:05
to a workshop, I'm always teaching have a servant's
6:09
heart. Yes. You go out and you give and don't
6:13
expect to receive anything. And that makes you
6:16
a better person, makes the person you're trying
6:18
to help a better person. And that level of trust.
6:23
automatically goes up when that wall between
6:25
the two of you starts to come down. And it begins
6:29
a beautiful relationship. You've probably noticed,
6:32
Michael, how savvy people are about AI. It's
6:36
not just that they know AI when they look at
6:38
something that's rendered as a visual. They can
6:40
also whiff it in an incoming email. They can
6:43
smell that it's been touched by AI. Absolutely.
6:46
And everybody uses it. Everybody uses it, but
6:51
people just copy and paste and say, okay, I'm
6:54
done. They don't put their own twist on it, their
6:57
own feelings on it. And that's where you can
7:00
really tell the difference. Okay, I'm very big.
7:03
When I go on a stage and I'm speaking to the
7:06
masses, I learned something a long time ago,
7:10
how to get the initial, how to get their attention.
7:16
And that is by storytelling. Because storytelling,
7:19
people learn so much more when you tell them
7:23
a story than when you give them facts and figures.
7:26
Right? So you call storytelling a superpower.
7:31
What does a great story do in a conversation
7:35
that facts alone can't? So I've got so much to
7:39
say on this subject. I'll try to keep it orderly.
7:41
I'll try to keep it orderly. I'll start with
7:43
this. The basics are that bullet points. are
7:48
not remembered the way that stories are. Stories
7:51
come in through a different part of the mind
7:53
than bullet points. There are actually two ways
7:56
that human memories are formed. One is through
7:58
the amygdala. That's the emotional center of
8:00
the brain. Love, trust, jealousy, and so on.
8:03
And then there's the hippocampus. That's facts,
8:06
figures, data, inputs. The problem is our neocortex
8:09
is not formed to store endless amounts of data.
8:13
You know this. Just like a computer whose disk
8:16
is full. Once you reach that full disc, it starts
8:19
to break down. It doesn't function. It's slow
8:21
and so forth. So what the hippocampus is really
8:23
about is, do I need to remember this? No, goodbye.
8:27
It sorts and discards information. The amygdala,
8:32
by contrast, the emotional center of the brain,
8:35
it's very long -lasting how you feel about somebody.
8:39
You probably, you haven't seen somebody for 15
8:42
years. You don't remember their name, but the
8:44
second you lay eyes on them, you get a galvanic
8:47
skin response. Like, I don't trust that guy.
8:49
Or, oh, she's delightful. You know what I mean?
8:52
That just that instant smile that is provoked
8:54
from a reason you can't remember. Yeah, that's
8:56
the emotional center of the brain. Stories attach
8:59
to the emotional center of the brain. It makes
9:02
them much longer lasting and repeatable. And
9:06
you will doubtless. have learned this lesson,
9:09
which is when you give information in the form
9:12
of a story, people remember it and they can repeat
9:14
it. Yes. Which means that once you've gone to
9:17
the middle management of a company and you've
9:19
explained something through the use of a story,
9:21
they can then sell it up the line because it's
9:24
so easy for them to remember what you said. And
9:26
they remember the moral. And the piece of evidence
9:29
I always use for that is you haven't heard the
9:31
story of the tortoise and the hare in 21 years.
9:34
And yet you can spit it back with very high fidelity
9:37
and you remember the moral. Brother, what else
9:41
is like that? No PowerPoint presentation I ever
9:44
saw do I remember unprompted 21 years later and
9:48
can tell you what the conclusion was. Absolutely.
9:52
Absolutely. As a matter of fact, the first book
9:54
that I wrote, I start off by saying, by telling
9:57
a story about Marty and Fred. And it goes on
10:01
about a fishing trip and everything else. When
10:03
I talk to people about my book, that's the first
10:07
thing that they bring up is Marty and Fred. Nice.
10:11
The story. And so what you're saying is so true.
10:15
It's so factual that I hope everybody's paying
10:18
attention. In a networking setting, how can someone
10:23
use storytelling without it feeling rehearsed
10:26
or performative? So there are three answers to
10:30
that. The first is never make yourself the hero
10:33
of your own story. Because that self -aggrandizement
10:37
sets an emotional tone for this. And it makes
10:41
you, A, you're not believable. Because, oh yeah,
10:45
the fish I caught was this big. Yeah, no. Anytime
10:49
you're bragging about yourself, we're all subject
10:51
to exaggeration. There's this great quote from
10:53
George Orwell. And he says that no autobiography
10:56
is to be trusted unless it reveals something
10:58
disgraceful. Because any man who gives a good
11:01
account of himself is most likely lying. when
11:03
you look at any life, when looked at from the
11:05
inside, is really just a series of defeats. And
11:08
somebody telling the truth is more likely to
11:11
explain something they did badly than something
11:14
they did well. But the first thing is, if you
11:17
don't make yourself the hero of your story, here's
11:19
what happens. When you tell the story, instead
11:21
of them looking up at you with jealousy and incredulousness,
11:27
They're standing side by side with you, looking
11:29
out into the view of the Grand Canyon. You're
11:32
both enjoying it at the same time. And that starts
11:36
to build a relationship. So the first thing is
11:38
don't make yourself the hero, because if you
11:40
simply observe somebody else being heroic, oh,
11:43
I was there and I saw this person do this amazing
11:46
thing. Isn't that wonderful? Or you say, you
11:50
know what I was really inspired by was I saw
11:53
this thing happen at a tire store. And then.
11:57
What happens is you're telling them a lot about
12:00
yourself, but you're not doing it in a way that
12:03
seems like you are. If, for example, you say,
12:06
I was at a Little League game. I saw just the
12:09
most beautiful gesture of sportsmanship I think
12:12
I've ever seen from a 13 -year -old umpire to
12:17
a kid. And okay, now I've tell you this really
12:21
nice story. I didn't do it. I wasn't the hero.
12:24
I was just an observer. But what I have told
12:27
you is what's important to me, what I like, what
12:30
I admire. And I've given you the chance to participate
12:34
in the same emotions that I experienced. So right
12:38
away, we're vibrating on the same frequency.
12:41
But you were there. If I do a good enough job
12:43
of telling you the story, you were there with
12:46
me. And that's a marvelous way to be remembered
12:49
is. Oh, they admire the same things I admire,
12:53
or they're inspired by the same people and the
12:55
same things I'm inspired by. And ultimately,
12:59
that's a real tool for trust. But the way that
13:03
I like to weave stories into conversations is
13:06
just to say, I've never been quite in a hotel
13:09
this nice. And the funny thing that I find great
13:12
about hotels isn't the building. I've never wondered.
13:17
about the greatness of the building, but I have
13:19
always remembered the staff when they're really
13:21
good. And I just met this gal at the front desk
13:25
who is fucking fantastic. Caprice. Oh, my Lord.
13:30
She will absolutely be the best part of this
13:32
trip, but I didn't see that coming. So when you
13:35
express your values by talking about people and
13:38
things that have made you happy or surprised
13:41
you, it's a really nice organic way of weaving
13:43
them into your... conversation in a way that
13:46
makes them feel like they know you. Yeah. And
13:49
that's a very good way to explain it. Also, you
13:52
did a very good job on how you can not be the
13:57
star of the story, but you're the star of the
13:59
story because you're the one conveying that,
14:02
right? You're the one conveying it and you're
14:04
talking about somebody else, but the other person,
14:07
they see it in you. They see it coming from you
14:12
and it means so much more. It really does. That's
14:15
beautiful. That's beautiful. What makes a story
14:18
persuasive instead of just interesting? This
14:22
is where the Aesop's fables are so instructive.
14:25
And the parables from the Bible, for example,
14:27
are very instructive because they are all lessons.
14:30
The reason for this tortoise and the hare is
14:33
to say slow and steady often wins the race. Or
14:37
in the story of the Good Samaritan, it's a really
14:41
brilliant way of saying. Whatever you call yourself,
14:44
whatever religion you say you go by, I will tell
14:47
you who is admirable in the eyes of God, okay?
14:49
And it's not about the label. It's about the
14:53
actions, okay? And so what makes it persuasive,
14:57
I believe, is to strike an emotional chord in
15:01
recognition. So I saw this wonderful restaurant.
15:06
I caught it as a news item. I wish I'd been there.
15:09
It's a restaurant in Japan called the Restaurant
15:12
of Mistaken Orders. Have you ever heard of this
15:14
place? No. Okay. Oh, Michael, you're going to
15:16
love this. This guy, Shiro Oguni, had visited
15:20
a woman in a home for people with dementia. And
15:25
he said to himself, oh, my Lord, these people
15:29
are, they're in a little community, but... It's
15:31
more like a prison because they're being sequestered
15:34
from society. And I can see this has a bad effect
15:37
on them. How much nicer would it be if we were
15:40
to find a role for these people out in the world
15:42
so they could continue to participate despite
15:45
their affliction? And in fact, let's not even
15:48
hide that fact. Let's just celebrate the fact
15:50
that. This has happened and they're still making
15:52
a good go of it. So here's what he did. He created
15:55
a restaurant called the Restaurant of Mistaken
15:57
Orders, where all the elderly waiters and waitresses
16:00
were suffering from some degree of memory loss.
16:03
And nevertheless, he was forcing them to do a
16:07
job which required a very good memory. And yes,
16:11
37 % of the time the orders were wrong, but 99
16:16
% of the time people left happy. Because, of
16:19
course, they did. They knew what they were getting
16:21
when they walked in. They don't care if it's
16:24
codfish versus a taco. They don't really care.
16:28
That's not why they're there. And you know what?
16:30
You know that man does not live by bread alone?
16:33
That was a really good example of something brought
16:35
to life, which is you leave with your spirit
16:40
fed. delightful people who are laughing and smiling,
16:46
and they're not ashamed that they got it wrong.
16:48
Everybody understands that this is likely to
16:51
happen. And there's a wonderful folktale that's
16:55
the compliment to that story. And that is, there
16:58
was an old folktale about a woman who used to
17:01
get water from a river every day, and she would
17:03
go and retrieve it with two buckets on the end
17:06
of a bamboo pole. So one of the buckets was brand
17:09
new, and it was solid, and the other was older,
17:11
and it had developed a few leaks. And when she
17:14
would get the water back from the river, the
17:16
new bucket still had all its water, but the old
17:18
bucket had lost almost half. And the old water
17:21
bucket felt very badly about this and apologized
17:23
to the woman for not being able to do its job
17:25
very well. And the woman turns and points back
17:30
down the road and says to the old water bucket,
17:32
do you see on your side of the road all those
17:35
flowers growing? Every day you water those flowers.
17:39
And my walk to and from the river. is always
17:42
filled with beauty. Now, as I tell you that story,
17:46
and as I've told that story to other people,
17:49
we are experiencing the same emotion at the same
17:53
time. And that is, there is more to life than
17:58
efficiency. And there is so much return on investment
18:03
to being the woman who turns around and says,
18:08
you have value. Don't think that you don't, to
18:12
me. It's not my charity that keeps you. It's
18:16
my appreciation that keeps you. And that to me
18:20
is a really marvelous way of being persuasive,
18:23
is to have somebody be on your same emotional
18:26
wavelength and go, there is more to this decision
18:30
than the objective criteria. And let me point
18:34
out some of those things. And you see this again
18:38
and again. And when you are able to establish
18:40
a relationship with a client or a prospect, or
18:42
you're in a convention and you're meeting someone
18:45
for the first time, there's an opportunity to
18:48
see them as a human being and act like a human
18:50
being to them. And in doing so, you will so advance
18:55
your cause before they even know what you're
18:58
there to sell. Absolutely. Absolutely. And through
19:02
all my networking events and different things
19:06
in life, That is, it's true no matter how you
19:11
turn. Because when you were telling me that story,
19:14
I was visualizing her walking down the road with
19:19
a bamboo and two buckets, one kind of leaking
19:24
out and one staying put. And I was visualizing
19:28
everything as you were telling me the story.
19:31
And when you said, look at the flowers that you've
19:34
watered, I immediately turned and I looked. I
19:38
wanted to see the flowers. So it's so real. And
19:42
so what you're doing with that story is you're
19:46
making me understand. You're making me feel what
19:51
you're feeling. And if you can do that, and if
19:55
you're selling something, you can sell almost
19:58
anything. You really can. People want to buy
20:02
from people that they like. Absolutely. But people
20:07
love to buy. They do. But they hate to be sold
20:13
to. Although you know who loves to be sold to
20:15
is a great salesman. They're hoping that you're
20:19
going to do such a good job that they can buy
20:21
out of respect. So I've run into this where I
20:26
used to sell all the time to car dealers as they
20:29
were my clients often. And there was a grudging
20:33
kind of respect that they would give you if you
20:36
were, they knew you were there to sell something
20:37
to them. And yes, you are absolutely right. Radar
20:40
up, shields in place. I don't like to be manipulated
20:44
for sure. But a great salesman appreciates the
20:48
art form in a way that civilians don't. And so
20:52
they're going to be open to, okay, that was good.
20:57
All right. All right. That was good. Listen,
20:59
I have to buy from you just because you were
21:02
so good. I have to support the cause. And I've
21:06
done that so many times myself. Have you? I really
21:08
have. Me too. Yes. I really have. And that's
21:11
just giving the other person the respect that
21:14
they're due because they did such a good job.
21:16
All right. Why do people remember stories long
21:20
after they forget what someone else does? Yeah.
21:24
So it's. traceable right to human biology. I
21:28
want to tell a very quick anecdote, which is
21:30
that when I was in my 20s, I used to go to my
21:33
father all the time with some new business book
21:35
that I've read in search of excellence or whatever.
21:38
And I would be so excited to impart these great
21:40
grains of wisdom to my retired father. And he
21:44
would shake his head and go, oh, Neil, brother,
21:48
there's nothing new under the sun, okay? Can
21:50
I give you? piece of advice. Instead of reading
21:52
the latest business book, and they're never going
21:54
to stop making these things, why don't you read
21:57
books that are more than 100 years old? And here's
21:59
why. You read a book that's more than 100 years
22:02
old, anything in it that's still true, that's
22:05
always going to be true. You will be building
22:07
on a foundation of what never changes. And I
22:11
thought, Oh, that's good. And then he hands me
22:13
Dale Carnegie and he goes, this was written a
22:16
hundred years ago, brother. So I go, oh my God,
22:19
Dale Carnegie was written a hundred years ago.
22:21
Oh my God, Michael. Carnegie's a hundred years
22:24
old. So when you read it, even now, even using
22:28
the old metaphors that he would use, not a dang
22:32
thing has changed in all that time. Human beings
22:36
haven't changed in more than a hundred thousand
22:38
years. We are the same jealous, angry, but also
22:43
inspirational and creative. We are the same people
22:46
that were sitting around a campfire talking about
22:49
how we were going to kill the buffalo the next
22:50
day with sharp sticks. And we're subject to the
22:54
same jealousies and the same motives, the same
22:58
anger, but also the same kindnesses and so forth.
23:01
They've got cave people. from hundreds of thousands
23:05
of years ago. And Margaret Mead, the anthropologist,
23:08
said that her first sign of civilization was
23:10
a healed femur. So somebody 200 ,000 years ago
23:14
had broken their leg, their femur, which takes
23:17
about eight, nine months to heal. The fact that
23:20
thing healed means that they took care of that
23:23
son of a gun who was completely unproductive,
23:25
and they took care of him anyway. So the human
23:29
species hasn't changed. If it hasn't changed,
23:31
then the smart thing to do is to go way back
23:34
and say, what worked then? And what you find
23:38
out is stories were the default operating system
23:41
for human beings since the time when we didn't
23:44
know what volcanoes were for. We didn't know
23:47
why there were seasons. We certainly didn't know
23:49
why people died. And we would sit around the
23:52
campfire chewing on recently cooked meat. explained
23:57
to each other through stories, we would try to
24:00
make sense of it all through stories. It was
24:03
a way of exerting control over something we had
24:06
no control over, the weather and locusts. So
24:11
what has happened is our technology has advanced
24:15
by leaps and bounds. But we as a species, we
24:19
haven't changed in all of those 100 ,000 years
24:21
from the wheel to fire. to sharp sticks, to stones,
24:25
to iron and bronze, et cetera. And what happens
24:29
is we are subject to thinking that we're smarter
24:32
than the generation that came before because
24:34
we have MRI machines and satellite TV. And they
24:38
were sitting around reading books by candlelight.
24:41
Brother, you're not smarter than they are. And
24:44
you're not wiser than the next generation. Did
24:47
you ever hear of the book Raving Fans? No. Who's
24:51
that? There's a book. Raving Fans by Ken Blanchard.
24:56
Oh, okay. It's out of print by about 15 years,
25:00
and it's about a 45 -minute read. It is before
25:05
technology truly came into it. It's all about
25:09
customer service. I used to hand this book out
25:13
with my business card. I was in a mortgage business
25:17
to every realtor. that I came in contact with.
25:21
They would look at me like, why are you handing
25:23
me this book? I said, read the book. It's going
25:27
to tell you all about customer service. You read
25:29
it as your nap, 45 minutes, you'll finish the
25:32
book. And afterwards, it's the basis of all customer
25:38
service. You will thoroughly enjoy it if you
25:41
thumb through it. Okay. How can executives use
25:46
storytelling to build trust quickly in high stakes
25:49
conversations? It's really important that people
25:53
need to know why you make your decisions, not
25:56
just what it's going to be. And there is such
25:59
a lately, there is just such a wind of selfishness.
26:04
I don't have to explain. I don't have to do anything.
26:07
I can lay people off over email. I can lay 11
26:10
,000 people off and not even tell you why. I'm
26:14
not even going to bother with the reason anymore.
26:15
They used to make a show of it, and now they
26:17
delight in laying 30 ,000 people off. They can't
26:22
wait to tell the market, to tell the stock market.
26:25
We just kicked out to the curb 30 ,000 more people.
26:28
Woo -hoo! Aren't we great? Sociopath Incorporated.
26:33
And why it's important that people know why you
26:36
make your decisions is they do have a choice
26:39
about who they work for. Do you know the term
26:44
fifth column? No. Fifth column was a word for
26:49
a saboteur. During World War II, if there were
26:52
people of German descent bombing fire stations
26:55
and so forth during the war, they would be called
26:58
fifth columnists. And you'll notice that there
27:03
are, say, for example, like warehouses are being
27:05
lit on fire these days. And these are reactions
27:09
to a... clearly they know that the employer really
27:13
doesn't care about them. But most of the time,
27:17
the employers do care about them. And I've seen
27:19
a lot of small businesses where it's extraordinary
27:22
how much the employer cares about their people.
27:25
So when you're asking, like, how does a CEO use
27:28
a story to establish quickly things, they...
27:31
It's very key that when they explain themselves,
27:35
it isn't enough to say what we're going to do.
27:37
You have to say, can I tell you the thinking
27:39
that went into this? Now, I'll give you an example.
27:42
Boss says, and I saw this in Major League Baseball.
27:45
I saw one of the teams do this brilliantly. They
27:47
said, look, we want people to start coming back
27:49
into the office. I'm not going to force you.
27:52
I'm not going to be the parent who says because
27:54
I said so. But I will explain that I think it
27:57
would be in your interest to come back. Here's
27:58
why. Look at me. You know how old I am now. I'm
28:01
in my 60s. I'm not going to be long in this job.
28:04
And there's a very strange phenomenon that comes
28:08
over you when you hit this age, which is you
28:11
kind of want to help young people. You want to
28:13
hang out with young people, and you want to help
28:15
them in their careers. I don't know why this
28:18
happens, but trust me, all of my colleagues at
28:20
the same age, it's always the same thing. We're
28:22
looking for young people that we can guide and
28:24
support and help along. What's going to happen
28:27
is... If you don't come back in the office, there's
28:30
none of those chance meetings. There's none of
28:31
that mentor -protege relationships get formed.
28:34
You're leaving money on the table. There are
28:36
people that can advance your career by, they
28:38
can put you five years ahead of schedule. If
28:40
you come in and you talk to them about all the
28:42
institutional knowledge, which is just going
28:44
to walk out the door in five years. How would
28:47
you like to get a graduate degree in what these
28:50
people know after 25 years? It's all there for
28:55
you. It's just there for the taking. if you come
28:58
back in and get it. I'm not saying come back
29:02
in because I said so. I'm just saying this is
29:04
a real thing. This is a real phenomenon. And
29:07
I had it in my early career. I had a mentor who
29:11
easily leapfrogged me over two layers of management
29:13
because of what I knew and because of the people
29:16
he introduced me to. That's the key thing also,
29:19
because if you're well -liked, and he sees that
29:24
you're a sponge, that you're taking in all the
29:27
knowledge, then he's going to leapfrog you to
29:32
the right places or introduce you to the right
29:35
people. If you weren't that sponge, if you weren't
29:38
that, if you're just like, okay, I'm here. I'm
29:41
like, okay, he'll keep you right where you are
29:43
because of - I'm sorry, think about that CEO
29:48
delivering that message versus the other guy
29:51
saying, if you don't come back in, You're fired.
29:55
There's a certain type of person that comes back
29:57
in when they do return. You know exactly who
30:01
they are, like they're going to be those sponges.
30:03
Right. Because they're going, oh, I see the logic
30:07
of that and I see the opportunity of that. I'm
30:09
not going to let somebody else take that opportunity.
30:12
Absolutely not going to let anybody else take
30:14
it where I could go in and take it myself. So
30:17
he got double his results. He got double his
30:20
results because it was a sort of self -selecting
30:23
process. But you understand he was dead serious
30:25
about it. He wasn't lying. That was just the
30:27
kind of cat he was. He was very generous in spirit.
30:30
But to me, any CEO, when they're going to make
30:34
an important announcement about a change in policy,
30:36
new policy, or they're going to double down on
30:39
some old policy that may be unpopular. Or you
30:41
really are going through a straits where you're
30:43
in financial difficulties and people have to
30:45
tighten their belts. In all these cases, you
30:47
can't willy -nilly go in there and simply make
30:50
an announcement as though you are the dictator
30:52
of a country. You really do need to say, this
30:56
is a company made up of human beings. They can
30:58
either cooperate and give me extra effort, or
31:02
they can passive -aggressively be fifth columnists,
31:04
stealing office supplies and sabotaging the AI
31:08
adoption. We'll see whether or not if there's
31:12
a large turnover in employees, you know that
31:17
the culture of the business really isn't right.
31:20
But if you find that business where employees
31:23
have been there for 15 years, there must be something
31:26
there that keeps them. Do you know, I've got
31:30
one more level for you. So there's the company
31:33
where there's an 18 -month turnover. And there
31:36
are some people who actually like that because
31:38
it keeps people from organizing. And then there's
31:41
the culture where people have been there for
31:43
15, 16 years, which I deeply admire. But I think
31:47
the higher level is this, and I've seen this,
31:49
which is people leave after five years, six years,
31:53
but then they come back three years later. And
31:57
it's because, yeah, they went out of the big
31:58
bad world and they found out, yeah, no, it ain't
32:00
that good out there. And by the way, I'm going
32:03
to give you double effort because I don't want
32:05
to ever lose this chance again. So that to me
32:07
is - Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Speaking of
32:12
kindness, what does kindness look like in action
32:16
during a networking conversation, not just in
32:21
theory? And you have already espoused these things,
32:25
so I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
32:27
But when you go in with a spirit of giving and
32:30
you want to be a lifeboat and a ladder and a
32:32
lamp, when you're going in there, not so much
32:36
to get anything out of it as much to just make
32:38
new friends, to find people who have complementary
32:41
philosophies and or even competitors. And I saw
32:45
this at the National Speakers Association meeting
32:48
in Scottsdale. Everybody in that room is a competitor
32:51
of everybody else. And it was the most generous,
32:54
good -natured, cooperative environment I've ever
32:59
been in. And they all know they're competing
33:01
with one another. You explain that to me, Michael.
33:04
I don't know. I do know that it was magnificent.
33:07
It's like a brotherhood. I belong to the NSA
33:10
here in Georgia. Okay. Right. So whenever there's
33:14
a meeting or anything, people, if you go up and
33:18
ask somebody questions about this speaking, this
33:21
gig, this something, they just want to tell you
33:24
everything. Yeah. Because you're in competition,
33:26
but you're not in competition. They want to give
33:30
you all of their knowledge so you'll be better.
33:35
One day you're going to be better and bring them
33:37
along. It's a give and take. First of all, I
33:42
go into that place and I was not prepared for
33:45
1 ,300 extroverts. in one place. Michael, what
33:49
happens is you've checked in. Even the woman
33:52
at the counter is an extrovert. You check in.
33:55
You get on the elevator. I'm on the elevator
33:56
with eight other people. Immediately, people
33:59
are asking you questions about, where are you
34:01
from? How did you just get here? What are you
34:02
going to go see? What's your specialty? The number
34:05
of times. I have sat on that elevator with six
34:09
other people, and somebody is getting off of
34:11
the floor, but they're holding the door open
34:12
because the conversation is still going, and
34:14
nobody's impatient. Everybody's just, no, keep
34:17
going. Nobody's interested in getting off the
34:21
elevator. No, nobody's interested in getting
34:22
off. And then I did have this thought. I was
34:25
about two days into it, and I thought, wow, if
34:29
I suffered from chronic depression, you could
34:33
prescribe this as a drug. Because everybody's
34:37
going to be interested in you and everybody's
34:40
going to want to hear your story. And you know
34:43
how they listen at these things, right? Everybody's
34:46
listening like this. And so I sat down with just
34:51
the most delightful people, this Irishman and
34:53
this woman from India, and we're all learning
34:56
each other's life stories. And so in response
35:00
to your query, which was how do you demonstrate
35:03
kindness? in a kind of networking thing. For
35:07
me, it's what they did for me, which was they
35:09
were just really interested in what I was about.
35:13
And of course, you get caught up in it. And now
35:16
you're the one on day three, asking people about
35:18
what they're there for in the lift. And you just
35:22
leave a kinder person, a more generous person,
35:25
because you've absorbed the culture. Absolutely.
35:29
Absolutely. And there is no better association.
35:34
than the NSA. Because everybody's out to help
35:37
everybody else. And you can't help but be helped.
35:43
You can't help but be thrown forward. I got some
35:46
really good advice. I met some really fabulous
35:49
people. I got three or four podcast appearances
35:52
out of it. Because as you can imagine, Michael,
35:54
everybody that's in the NSA, if they don't have
35:56
a podcast, they're thinking about one. Absolutely.
35:59
Absolutely. Yeah, you know, it's, listen, I built
36:03
this podcast from the ground up. I did it all
36:06
organically. I have about 15 ,000 listeners.
36:11
And I thought that was so great. I thought, look
36:13
how good I did. That is brilliant. Yeah, but
36:16
I go on to podcasts where they have 100 or 200
36:19
,000 listeners. And I go, how did you do that?
36:23
And they go, I don't know. I just talk. I was
36:27
like, oh, okay. So I don't know about how to
36:29
break that, but my listeners truly listen to
36:34
my guests. And so that's pretty good. All right.
36:38
Let me ask another question. All right. Where
36:40
do professionals unintentionally lose influence
36:44
by focusing too much on being impressive instead
36:48
of being relatable? Oh, boy, you're asking all
36:52
the right questions. So I'll give you a story,
36:55
which was from real life. For a chunk of my career,
36:59
I had worked for a woman boss. She was a very
37:01
hard charger. She was super sharp. And she ran
37:05
an advertising agency. And as you can imagine,
37:07
Michael, when you are a woman in business, you
37:10
have to walk a tightrope that men don't have
37:12
to walk. The tightrope you walk is if you exert
37:15
a little bit too much. forward pressure. If you're
37:18
a little bit too hard on people, you're perceived
37:19
as a bitch. And if you don't push hard enough,
37:22
you're perceived as a pushover. So they walk
37:25
this one centimeter wide tightrope. Now, every
37:30
quarter, this woman would sponsor a kind of little
37:33
woman's group, a clutch of people in New York
37:35
City, very successful businesswomen. They would
37:37
get together, much like the NSA, in order to
37:39
support each other in their endeavors and talk
37:42
about their common problems and so on. So I was...
37:45
brought in, usually once, sort of semi -annually,
37:48
to give an update to that group about what the
37:50
agency was up to. This woman liked the fact that
37:53
I would come in and I would tell a story. I wouldn't
37:55
just give them the facts. So I'm about to go
37:58
on, and there's another guy there, except he's
38:01
there to sell them something. And I'm going to
38:03
describe to you how he did his pitch, and then
38:07
we're going to talk about how do we think he
38:09
did. So he gets introduced. He stands up. His
38:13
eye contact is very poor. He pulls a speech out
38:16
of his pocket, unfolds it, reads it, gets halfway
38:22
through. This is the only time he looked up.
38:23
He gets halfway through it. He looks up. He goes
38:26
back down, finishes the speech, folds it back
38:30
up, sits in his pocket. No clear call to action.
38:33
Just sits back down in his chair. Okay. Now,
38:36
you and I both know that the odds of him selling
38:38
out his inventory were extremely low, except
38:40
that. Except that he sold out every single one
38:44
of the boxes that he brought. And two of the
38:47
women went out of their way to congratulate him
38:50
on such a good pitch because he was seven years
38:52
old and he was there to sell cookies that he
38:54
and his sister had baked so they could fund their
38:57
summer camp adventure. Now, here was the lesson.
39:02
I saw it instantly. I go, oh, this is something
39:06
to really learn. They don't care how slick you
39:08
are. There's other things at work here. If he'd
39:12
been slick, it would have been a little creepy.
39:15
They might have actually not wanted to buy the
39:18
cookies for fear they'd be poisoned. Anyway,
39:19
what they were really about was he gave them
39:23
something, and the woman knew this, he gave the
39:26
women in that room something that they couldn't
39:29
have bought, which was for five minutes they
39:33
didn't have to walk that tightrope. For five
39:35
minutes, they could just be motherly and sweet
39:38
and supportive and let their hair down. And all
39:41
of them shared this moment when they go, we're
39:46
not in competition with one another. We're all
39:47
just we're just letting our real selves come
39:50
out at maternal, wonderfully supportive. And
39:53
they did not want to leave. And I thought, oh.
39:59
They don't really care. It's not about you, is
40:02
it? It's never about you. It's about what do
40:05
you give them? And it's really essential when
40:09
it comes to being prepared is what you should
40:12
prepare for is not how good you are. It's how
40:16
well are you going to give them what they need?
40:20
Are you? Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of my clients,
40:25
when they have a Chamber of Commerce meeting
40:28
and they have to get up and talk for 30 seconds
40:31
or a minute or something like that, I always
40:33
tell them, listen, don't spout what you do because
40:38
a minute is not enough time and nobody's going
40:41
to remember it, right? But give a situation how
40:46
you made your customer feel, how your client
40:49
felt. So you give up your name. what your company
40:52
is, and how your client felt at the end of your
40:56
last interaction. That people will remember.
40:59
And it goes right along with what you just said.
41:02
Yeah, they really do have to feel like, oh, and
41:07
what's funny too, because more than one of these
41:09
women kind of knew what this gal had done. And
41:13
they're like, Mary, that was effing brilliant.
41:16
That was good. Thank you so much for doing that.
41:18
And she's like, teehee. Because she could have
41:22
just stroked a check for double the amount and
41:26
said, go on your way. No, she brought him in.
41:29
Why? First of all, because she knew they would
41:32
enjoy it. And it would also be good for the kid
41:35
to get up and do the pitch. But I think she realized
41:39
that the way she had felt about it when she first
41:41
heard it was good. Oh, I'm going to do that.
41:45
for these women it'll be a really nice fun break
41:47
also i don't know they didn't talk about it in
41:50
my presence but i wonder if that actually became
41:53
a topic of conversation later where they talked
41:56
about the tightrope and they talked about it
41:58
could very well have been sure because because
42:01
it made such an impact on them that i'm sure
42:04
that they had to bring it up all right let me
42:06
bring this podcast full circle okay If a listener
42:11
wants to become more persuasive and more trusted
42:15
in the next 90 days, what one behavior should
42:19
they start practicing immediately? Okay. Now,
42:23
I could just sell my course at this point because
42:25
it's very good and it will do all of that. But
42:28
let's get right down into the dirt and say, here,
42:32
let me just give you two tactics. The first is
42:35
to recognize that storytelling as an art form,
42:37
you got to internalize this. storytelling as
42:40
an art form is a marvelous way to be more persuasive,
42:44
to reach people emotionally, to make more of
42:46
a human connection with people. If you just recognize
42:49
that, then you'll understand that maybe this
42:52
is something I should work on. And if you do
42:55
decide to work on it, then here's the first thing
42:56
you have to be cautious. Do you think people
42:58
go to the gym and think, I'll spend three days
43:00
there and I'll be ripped? No, they recognize
43:03
you build this skill. You can't learn to ice
43:08
skate. at an NHL level in one week. This is something
43:13
you have to practice and do a lot. Now, luckily
43:16
for us, we live in the age of the camera phone,
43:20
which means you can rehearse and tape yourself.
43:24
Just like you go out and practice your golf swing
43:26
or your tennis swing and you film yourself so
43:28
you can see what you're doing wrong, then you
43:30
can likewise do the same thing to say, I'm going
43:33
to accept, in the words of Ernest Hemingway,
43:35
the first draft of anything is shit. And I'm
43:39
just going to say, I'm not expecting that the
43:41
first text that I write of a story or a sales
43:44
pitch or recounting something, I'm going to accept
43:49
that the first draft of it is not what I'm ultimately
43:51
going to wind up doing. I'm willing to write
43:54
the first draft so that I can then start the
43:56
process of reading it back to myself out loud,
44:00
filming myself delivering it. tuning it up, saying,
44:03
I don't like what I'm doing with my hands. Oh
44:05
my God, is that really what my nose looks like?
44:06
You got to get over the cringe of what it's like
44:09
to watch yourself. But this tool didn't exist
44:11
for the orators of the past. And it's an enormous
44:14
advantage. Now, here's point number three. And
44:18
I think this is really worth walking away with.
44:20
And that is, if you do these things, these simple
44:24
things, one, let me use stories more in the conduct
44:27
of business in sales pitches and so on. If you
44:29
do that, you are already ahead. of 60 % of your
44:33
competitors. Now, if you also, on top of that,
44:36
go, I need to rehearse more. I need to prepare
44:39
more. I need to spend more time on this. I need
44:41
to not beat myself up when I do it so that I
44:44
can watch myself and actually improve. You are
44:46
ahead of 85 % of all of your competitors now.
44:49
And you have only done these two things. But
44:52
if you want to get to that elite level and you
44:55
know what I'm talking, the difference between
44:57
an elite level and a really good versus a journeyman
45:00
and so forth. Elite soaks up all of the money
45:04
and the attention. And so what I have found is
45:09
I watched in real time executives at very large
45:12
companies, the ones that were good at this, who
45:15
could get up on a stage at a company meeting
45:17
with 3 ,000 people in the audience, and they
45:20
could just rock that moment. Those people became
45:23
instant candidates for the C -suite. It's like
45:30
an athlete who goes out on the ice and then just
45:34
five hole, boom. Really? That guy's a backup?
45:40
Yeah. So you become an instant candidate. And
45:43
you've heard this phrase, pretty privilege. Pretty
45:47
privilege is the unfair advantage that somebody
45:49
who's very handsome or very beautiful have when
45:51
they walk into a business meeting or a networking
45:53
event. I wouldn't know that, but that's right.
45:56
So pretty privilege is a completely real phenomenon.
45:59
But you know what? If you don't have, if you're
46:02
not gorgeous or you're not super handsome and
46:04
you're not ripped and so on, you can get your
46:06
own version of pretty privilege, which is when
46:08
you are a great storyteller and you can go onto
46:11
a stage or in front of a room and you can captivate
46:14
that room or at least be 50 % better than you
46:16
are now. Brother, it's like you just got 15 IQ
46:20
points and a nose job. Yeah. Absolutely. They
46:24
stop seeing the physical person and now they
46:27
only see their perception of you. It's a funny
46:30
thing about funny women, like really funny women.
46:34
They're just better looking. They get better
46:36
looking in your eyes. You look at them completely
46:40
differently when they're funny. It's the same
46:43
way. Listen, I've been at the 21st of May. I'm
46:47
going to be married 38 years. Congratulations.
46:51
Wow. My wife is more beautiful today than when
46:56
I married her. And she looks at me, she goes,
46:59
that's because you're in love with me. So it's
47:03
just everything is it's just because that's the
47:07
way that I feel. That's the way that I see her.
47:10
And I don't believe that anyway. But it's true
47:13
that if somebody likes you. Because if you're
47:16
humorous or anything else, they're going to forget
47:19
about how ugly you are, a loser or anything else
47:22
like that. You automatically, you get that automatically.
47:25
And you say, you know what? I like this person.
47:29
I want to talk to him more. So it all goes on
47:32
how you're perceived. So listen, Neil, you've
47:37
been fabulous, a fabulous guest, right? I could,
47:40
I could probably. Turn this podcast. I could
47:43
probably go for another two hours. I know. Just
47:45
pick your brain. We could because we're kindred
47:47
spirits, clearly. Absolutely. Absolutely. But
47:51
if somebody wanted to get hold of you and tell
47:54
us a little bit about your workbook or book,
47:57
whatever. Okay. And how to get hold of you, either
48:00
to be mentored by you, coached by you, or to
48:03
buy your product. What can we do to get hold
48:06
of you? It turns out that I'm easy to find because
48:09
I spell my name strangely. So N -E -A -L -F -O
48:14
-A -R -D. That combination is unique, which means
48:18
that if you just spell my name right and Google
48:21
me, boom, you've got a million ways to find me.
48:24
I'm on Instagram. I'm on YouTube. I'm on TikTok.
48:26
I'm on Substack. I'm on Blue Sky. But I'm also
48:30
on LinkedIn. Easy to find there. And if you want
48:33
to reach out to me, my email is... neilford at
48:37
gmail .com. So if you just spell my name right,
48:39
Neil Ford. And I also have neilford .com, the
48:43
story fire course that I was talking about before.
48:45
What it is, it's my distilled 30 years of advertising,
48:48
taking the lessons of the advertising and stealing
48:51
them to make you more compelling and more persuasive
48:54
in your own communications. So there you go.
48:58
That's fantastic. Neil, this conversation is
49:02
a reminder that influence isn't about saying
49:05
more. It's about saying what matters and making
49:08
it stick. When you combine a clear story and
49:12
genuine kindness, people remember you, trust
49:15
you, and want you to remember, want you to continue
49:18
the relationship. That's where the real opportunity
49:22
begins. Take one step this week. In your next
49:26
conversation, share a short, meaningful story
49:29
instead of just explaining what you do. And pay
49:32
attention how the other person responds. If you
49:36
found value in today's episode, make sure you
49:39
like, follow, and subscribe to Networking Unleashed,
49:42
building profitable connections so you keep getting
49:45
the best insights on networking and communication.
49:48
And share this episode with someone who wants
49:51
to strengthen how they connect and influence
49:54
others. If you'd like to improve your communication
49:57
or building your relationships that lead to results,
50:01
Visit michelaforman .com. Learn how I work with
50:05
professionals, teams, and organizations. So until
50:08
next time, tell better stories, lead with kindness,
50:12
and build connections that truly last. Neil,
50:16
thank you so much for coming on my podcast. Thanks,
50:18
Michael, for having me. You're a delight. Well,
50:25
hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere. Let's hear
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from our sponsors. David Neal, co -founder, Revved
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Up Kids. Revved Up Kids is on a mission to protect
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Century 21. When it comes to making the biggest
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financial decision of your life, leave it in
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the hands of a proven professional, Henry Kaplan.
51:00
Henry is a global real estate agent with Century
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21, celebrating his 41st year in business. No
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matter where you're moving, Henry has the right
51:11
connections for you. You can contact Henry at
51:14
561 -427 -4888. A huge thank you to our guests
51:21
for sharing such... insights today. And of course,
51:24
a big shout out to you, our amazing listeners,
51:28
for tuning in and spending your time with us.
51:31
If you're interested in my digital courses, being
51:34
coached or having me come and talk to your company,
51:37
just go to Michael and fill out the request form.
51:41
Remember, networking isn't about being perfect.
51:44
It's about being present. So take what you've
51:47
learned today, get out there and make some meaningful
51:50
connections. If you've enjoyed this episode,
51:53
please don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a
51:56
review and share it with someone who could use
51:59
a little networking inspiration. Let's keep the
52:02
conversation going. You can find me on Apple,
52:05
Spotify, Pandora, YouTube, or my website, foreman
52:10
.com slash podcasts.