Latest / Step Wise / Luis Benitez on Guiding the First Blind Climber up Everest and What It Taught Him About Leadership

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Luis Benitez on Guiding the First Blind Climber up Everest and What It Taught Him About Leadership · Step Wise

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: It does actually come down to kind of a binary choice.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to have someone that you need to constantly push, or do you want to have someone that you have to reel back in?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell people all the time, you know, you want people that you have to reel back in because teaching someone how to find a throttle is much different to teaching someone to try to build a gas pedal.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Caring for others and leading in life and death circumstances is what is expected from every adventure guide, especially mountaineers like Luis Benitez.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Not only do you have to manage your own internal chatter and noise, but you've got to do it with and for your teammates, most of whom have less than ideal physical conditioning and perhaps less mental resolve.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Not only has Luis made it to the top of his guiding career, having led the first blind climber to the summit of Everest, but also as he's reinvented his career as an outdoor recreation expert for Colorado and nationally and become an author, having recently published a terrific must-read book called Higher Ground How the Outdoor Recreation Industry Can Save the World.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Audacious title, and yes, his evidence is compelling.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: In today's podcast, we'll talk about what it's like to stand on top of the world, what he had to do, and the costs involved with getting there.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: What leading in expedition and leading in business have to do with each other and what world-class teaming looks like in today's world.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's an excitement-rich conversation.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: So clip in and let's stepwise together with Luis.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: What's it like to stand on top of the world six times?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: What's that experience like?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's everything you think it would be, Faster.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a fleeting moment that you've worked really, really hard to achieve.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: You try to appreciate it while you're in the moment, but your mind's already shifting to the work required for turning around and going back down.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about that for a second.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you were the first um Everest Guide climber to guide a non-sighted person to the top.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to us about the preparation required for you physically and and mentally, as well as for Eric.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, you're referencing Eric Weinemare, who's indeed an amazing individual, a great friend.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was an all-Colorado team that, if you really looked through the lens of climbing experience at that point, we were all untested.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: There was only a few people on the team that had been to Everest before and that had summited.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: The thing for us, especially in the face of a lot of detractors in the global media saying that what we were doing was a stunt, there's no possible way that you you could do this safely, you know, the conversations around what that is or what it would mean were were really fractured.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was just an incredible thing to be a part of.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think when you start talking about breaking barriers and proving to other people what's possible, the thing that really stood out for all of us was that there is no roadmap here.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: We're creating it as we go along.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the willingness to do that requires a couple of pieces to make it special.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing I think we all got fortunate on was that our our team had that makeup.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what convinced you that it was possible in the first place?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a pretty audacious thing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I think the thing that convinced me was just knowing Eric personally and seeing him as a climber.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: At that point, he had climbed the Nolly in Alaska, he had climbed Kilimanjaro, which isn't all that technical, but still high.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: He was a climber by hobby, rock climbing, ice climbing.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the thing that made me think it was possible was that he and Pasquale Scorturo, our expedition leader, built a team.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's sort of that blend whenever you're starting out your career of how much experience do I have and what's the willingness threshold that I hold.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there was nobody on that team who metaphorically wasn't willing to wash the windows and do the floors.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever was required, we were there.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think all of us training at a really high level with the National Federation of the Blind to understand access issues and policy issues in the United States for mobility issues, along with leveraging some of that training and some of that education towards working with Eric, we were really leaned in on everything together.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so each one of us somewhat became an all-terrain vehicle, knowing that if somebody got sick, couldn't make it, needed to step in, um, we we had help.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: As I recall it, there's an interesting story about how you got on that team.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Would you be willing to share that?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, people think, well, is what do you do?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how does that work?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it an application?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do people, you know, sort of look at your CV?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it was all based on relationships.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I had started climbing in the Himalayas a couple years before this trip, and we were trying for a first American ascent on a route in the Annapurna region on this mountain called Gangaperna, and I had a Sherpa climbing with me, Song Tenzing and Pisong at the end of the trip before I came back to Colorado.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Said, hey, I've climbed with somebody from Denver, from your town.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Would you mind carrying a gift back from me for him?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, didn't think anything of it.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Took this nice little box, brought it home.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I had, he gave me uh, who at the time turned out to be Pasquale Scarturo, the expedition leader's phone number, got back to Denver, called him.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, professionally, I was really trying to find a way and a path to get to Everest.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, met P V, met Pasquale for lunch, and sat down.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he said, Oh, how was Gangaperna?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds like a big trip.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just started talking.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: The climbing community at that level is pretty small.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, at the time, I was pretty young, so you know, really looked up to Pasquale and everything that he had done.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, What are you doing?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, I'm putting together an Everest expedition with the first blind person to ever attempt it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no invite.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: There was no, it was just this is what I'm doing.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I made a decision then and there that I verbalized.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Pasquale, I'm about to become your new best friend.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be calling you once a week to see what I can do to be a part of this.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'll help you buy gear, I'll help you pack, I'll help you lead a trek to base camp, whatever it is.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just I think this is really important and I want to be a part of it.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's fantastic.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Great story.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Persistence, determination.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: You got the vision early on.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, for me too, and I think this is an important part, you know, when when people talk about their leadership origin story and and you know what they what their purpose springs from, you know, I was I had really debilitating asthma and allergies when I was a little kid.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Couldn't really go outside um much until I started to outgrow it.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: The mountains definitely helped me get my lungs strong and get my health back.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And when I, you know, first heard of Eric, I just had a very visceral memory of being a kid and being told what I could and couldn't do.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And when Pasquale was telling me about, you know, how the media was against it and saying that what we were what they were gonna do was silly, I had a very visceral reaction that there nobody has a right to define the limits of someone else.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to be a part of breaking through that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it was it was deeply personal, straight out of the gate.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's fantastic.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I hadn't planned to ask you this, Luis, but I'd love you to weigh in on this piece.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Leaders in today's corporate world um are dealing with uh a workforce with greater agency than ever before.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um they know what they will do and they know what they won't do, and yet a lot of leaders don't know how to handle someone like that who is absolutely determined to play at the top of his or her license.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: They want to constrain them, put them in boxes, hold them to a job description.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of advice do you give leaders today if they have a young Luis who is absolutely determined to play at their play at the top level?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's fun to reflect on that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, would I wish a 29-year-old Luis on anybody?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think, you know, when you're starting out in your career in your late 20s and your early 30s, you know, you do have this sense of of thinking of limitless, limitless possibilities and potential.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell leaders all the time, it does actually come down to kind of a binary choice.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to have someone that you need to constantly push, or do you you want to have someone that you have to reel back in?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell people all the time, you know, you you want people that you have to reel back in because teaching someone how to find a throttle is much different to teaching someone to try to build a gas pedal.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I try to encourage all leaders to do is recognize that if you've if you see that in someone, especially the next generation, where they feel, yes, there's agency, but I think it's inherent.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's always a belief in that there's limitless potential in what's possible.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: You want that throttle because it's it's a much easier thing to advance and grow.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it also attaches to the conversation about ego.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we have that as mountaineers a lot.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I say all the time, you know, what are you holding on to versus what are you letting other people do?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are you what are you taking control of?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and for me, for Everest, at least with Eric, you know, there was no one angling to summit with him.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was just a matter of who was in front and who was behind him out of all the guides.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just happened to be in that position on Summit Day.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's it truly is um one of those questions of, you know, if you feel compelled towards a purpose, and how do you how do you find a way to bring everybody along with you?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a question about teamwork I want to get back to because it seems to me that climbing, especially high-stakes climbing like that, is one of the best descriptions of teamwork that we could have.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'd love to explore that a little bit more.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I have kind of an origin story question too for the people that have not yet read this book.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Luis's latest book or book is Higher Ground, How the Outdoor Recreation Industry Can Save the World.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Highly recommended, available on Amazon.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh five stars.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Read it twice, really enjoyed it.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: How does a kid with asthma and allergies in St.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Louis end up in the mountains?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Can you describe that piece of the journey for us?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is important where you hold on to the magic of being a kid.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the older we get, the as the roles and responsibilities get bigger, whether you're C-suite or not, I think oftentimes we we lose a little bit of that sparkle and and maybe not lose it, but you might forget a little bit of that magic.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, for for me, uh, you know, I think it was the same question that any kid gets.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Little boy, what do you want to do when you grow up?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And being a sick little kid really turned me into a voracious reader.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And my dad had a collection of National Geographic magazines, fond memories of like pulling a stack of yellow, yellow back magazines with a bowl of cookies to my bedroom to just flip through the pages and read these articles.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, having a hard time just going outside and playing, doing anything in any of these magazines was like going to the moon.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I came across an article about the first American expedition to Everest, and Jim Whitaker, who is recently passed, the first American to climb Everest.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Turns out he also had really bad asthma and allergies when he was a kid.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I remember being 10 years old and bringing this magazine into my parents' bedroom and saying, This guy has what I have.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I want to do.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be a mountain guide, I want to climb Mount Everest.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I want to do.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: For them, you pat your kid on the head, you say, Oh, that's a lovely idea.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and you go on about your way.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think plans change.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: You go to school for different things.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do I make my hobby my career?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do I make my career my hobby?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have all these, you know, in intrinsic questions.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, um, here's where I got lucky.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: My father's from Ecuador.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he comes from a very mountainous region and had brothers who were mechanical engineers by profession, but climbers by hobby.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And my father's youngest brother, um, as we started spending summers down in Ecuador, would just take me up to the high alpine huts at the base of these glaciated peaks.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I got to interact with the community that I saw in that magazine article, um, where I was just close enough that I thought, gosh, this, I think these are the people I'm supposed to be with.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the interesting thing physiologically that happened, because I grew up with breathing problems, um, because I grew up understanding how to pressure breathe, I was noticing that the higher I got in altitude, as other people around me were really starting to feel nervous because they couldn't catch a full breath, I knew what it was like having a childhood filled with that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so the higher I got, the calmer I got while other people around me um started to get a little nervous and a little jittery.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it was this significant light bulb moment that, oh, I think I actually have a mechanical advantage.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: So summers in Ecuador, visiting the Alpine peaks and huts, there's a step there between that and guiding others.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: What was that step for you?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I well, you know, going into high school while other friends, you know, you want to be a lifeguard at a pool and work at a pizza shop, you know, part of the luck of being part of the family that I am.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just wanted to go down to Ecuador and to be a hut boy in the hut system and work in the high mountain huts where you are the bottom of the totem pole, sweeping out the huts, cleaning the kitchen, helping to boil water for soup and tea.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: What I was exposed to at that point was um all of these international guiding companies that would bring their clients to Ecuador as a training ground to go on and climb bigger peaks around the world.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at a high school age, I was meeting um CEOs of global guiding companies that would come down and like you know, see this kid who spoke perfect English, but also Spanish, and you're half Ecuadorian, I don't get it, and you're from the Midwest, but you're here you like climbing.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of this oddity to a lot of these, um, a lot of these individuals.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: But again, like most entry-level jobs, you know, when they'd invite me over to sit down for a cup of tea or a bowl of soup, I would and I would listen.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's it like to run a global business?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do you become a guide with your company?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: What does it take?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because I spoke English um fluently and knew those peaks intimately, um, as these companies needed assistant guides and needed to hire what they considered local talent, um, because I was already there, I I would get I would get the opportunity to do so.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about teamwork for a second.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Am I right in assuming that um climbing is an absolute team sport?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And could you describe a little bit about you know what all of us need to know about teamwork that could apply to a business team, for example?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think, and and foster, you and I have discussed this before.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think at its highest art form, it truly is the essence of teamwork.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: You have to place the ego aside, you have to have really sincere and effective communication, um, you have to all be pointed in the same direction at the same time, uh, understand the risk portfolio, uh, you know, and the appetite for risk, you know.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when everything's working well.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think where a lot of people get tripped up is, and this you see this in guided climbs a lot, is you have a collection of individuals that are trying very quickly to become a team, much like in business, as you start to develop deals or mergers, you have to find that sweet spot.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: For mountaineering, you especially when you're guiding at that level, you have to take a group of high functioning type A individuals and quickly turn them into an effective team.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: The real magic behind that is a little bit of allowing the process to go experiential.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if people think that they're alpha, they should lead, they've got the best idea for A, B, and C, leaving room for that experience to happen safely, to where people start to naturally fall in the order of things.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what emerges is their skill sets.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: This person hates setting up tents.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: This person loves boiling water, that communication around who does what, why, where, when, and how, as opposed to I'm responsible for everything, you have to leave these moments for experiential development in any formation of a team.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that that's really hard when you're up against a clock, you're up against a distinct goal, like summiting a big mountain.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't leave room for that, you impose these things on the people that you're with.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes I find that there's misalignment.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And early on, I would hear it.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I hated setting up tents.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I much would have preferred to be in the kitchen and reflecting on that, like, wow, I never even asked you that question.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: You got to leave room for that.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: What a cool insight.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, back to that notion of agency of the workplace today is that we don't have one size fits all.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: And letting people, giving them some room, you know, one wouldn't think that there's a lot of variability on a climbing team, but you're pointing out that there are.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: There are different roles and different strengths, and skills will eventually show up.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at least for guiding Everest, I tell people all the time 90% of your clients are CEOs of their own, very high-level, high-functioning folks that have the discretionary income to do something like climb Everest.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine trying to get, you know, 10 to 12 CEOs to play nice together.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it really does boil down to attaching to that core purpose point.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is that thing that brought you here?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: What's the thing that's gonna keep you here and keep you open to what's possible?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: I like to focus on the positive.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my mantra these days given to me by Matt Brubaker is amplify light, which I love.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that a good one?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And apparently Rachel gave that to him.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm gonna ask you to amplify darkness here for a second.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any horror stories about, you know, this this ego thing, surrendering ego for the overall purpose, for the overall good of the team?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Ever work with somebody on a mountain that didn't or had real trouble surrendering ego?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: All the time.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's it's so ingrained in who we are as human beings, right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in the professional space, I ask people all the time that are sort of trying to figure out what's next, getting ready for a promotion, you know, asking that very generic question of what are you holding on to versus what are you empowering other people to do?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Are you really letting go of the things that it's going to leave room for what comes next?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Climbing Everest can be both as team focused as anything else, but also one of the most selfish things you can do as well.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have to focus on a high level of fitness, a high level of technical detail.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people take that selfishness into every aspect of the climb, especially if it's in a client scenario where, well, I get we're all a team, but I paid the same as all of these folks.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm faster than they are.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I should be able to go as fast as I want.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we should be able to go at speed and not wait for them.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: This idea of safety in numbers, I think, really translates to the marketplace and the business.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: It gets really lonely and scary out there when you're on your own.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the people that let ego get in the way, I mean, sadly, Foster, I've watched people literally walk to their death because they won't let go of the fact, no, I know you tell me it's not time to go because of weather, um, but my team is going to go anyway.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be able to surrender a little bit to really allow other people to rise around you and to allow a different part of yourself to lead.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: It truly is an exploration of every type of leadership style there is on the planet.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's advice for leaders, that's advice for outdoors people, that's advice for parents, that's advice for life, that you've got to be able to surrender a little bit of yourself or something, maybe that ego at times, to see what else will emerge in there.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's beautiful.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Luis, one of the things I liked many things about your book.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would imagine a lot of your learning is kinesthetic.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that one, I wasn't quite sure what was going on in that picture.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's what my publisher said.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: They said exactly you want people to open the book and try to figure out what it is.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's good then.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: What I liked about the book was that it is part memoir, narrative about who you are as you've grown into this, the these positions of responsibility, and now uh uh a spokesperson for um not only an industry but a way of life in many cases, as well as description of the journey with Eric.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's fabulous.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's um it's it's not quite a how-to book as much as it is um opening up possibilities in the reader for what's possible for them.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: The subtitle here is How the Outdoor Recreation Industry Can Save the World.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, I must admit, and I've told you this before, I was a bit skeptical when I first picked up the book.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Boy, that's a bold claim.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: That is really a bold claim.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask you um what the justification is for that claim, but first I'd love you to describe your background in the outdoor rack industry first.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think when I I I tell people all the time that I truly am a byproduct of the industry, they tend to laugh until I go through the entire sequence that I'm about to share with you.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've already talked about the Ecuadorian side of my family, um having a little bit of a mountaineering background, but the American side of my family.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Family, my American grandfather owned a specialty retail sporting goods store that was literally a half a mile away from my grade school, the first Orvis dealership in the Midwest, so fly fishing, bird hunting, sporting goods store.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So at a very early age, in the context of specialty retail and business, a business that put food on the table, was able to just walk down the street to my grandfather's store, help stock shelves, help talk to customers, help understand that whole piece.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But here's really where it impacted my paradigm.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think because my grandfather's store was incredibly unique in the Midwest, in St.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Louis, at a time when there was really nothing else like it.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: When I asked my grandfather about the origin of his shop, um, Kelly Sporting Goods, he said, Well, you know, I was kind of a fly fishing and bird hunting guide along with um doing some other work.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Your grandma was a uh a certified public accountant, she was a CPA, but I had a lot of clients that turned into really good friends.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, you know, Bill, we're tired of ordering our shotguns from Scotland and our fly rods from Ireland.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: We want you to open a shop and we're gonna we're gonna seed fund, we're gonna seed fund you, and you never have to pay us back.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're solvent, if we want to come in and pull something off the shelf, you're gonna eat it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna let us.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you better hire a good manager because if we want you to guide us, we better be able to have a manager that's gonna take care of the shop, and your wife can run the books, and and that's the way it's gonna be.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I asked my grandfather, like, who who were these people?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he started rattling off these champions of industry and politics.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Senator Danforth, Senator Ashcroft, Augie Bush Sr.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: from Anheuser Busch.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: These were people that I knew as uncles growing up, because my grandfather's store had a corner with leather couches and a little refrigerator in front of a fireplace, and all these guys would come in after work or if they were in town and just hang out at the neighborhood gear store.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you hang out at REI now, or you hang out in other stores.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing I noticed later, and I reflected on this with my grandfather, I said, you know, we had every political stripe in your shop.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the one thing they could all agree on, other than their love of the outdoors, was conservation policy, conservation and stewardship of these wild places and spaces and wilderness.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it was amazing that they could be disagreeing about everything under the sun, but when it came to those things, they were in lock step that these things are America's best idea and they need to be protected.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so my political education, along with my business education and my physical education, truly was the arc of the narrative through my entire life.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Went to school, couldn't really understand what the hell I was doing when all I wanted to do was be outside and to have a store like my grandfather's and to figure it out.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: But okay, I guess you need to learn all this stuff.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Ended up working for the Colorado Outward Bound School in the summers here in Colorado, which you don't really just become a wilderness educator and the technical skills.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's about communication, it's about leadership, it's about doing all of those pieces while using the mountains and the rivers as a medium for that dialogue.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I just had a really definitive um moment in my life where I said, listen, you could head straight to grad school and do the thing that's somewhat expected, or you could take all these magical things and turn it into the one thing that you really want to go after.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it still rang true that National Geographic article, I wanted to find a way to get to the Himalayas.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Started splitting my time between working for Outward Bound and working for guide services, um, both based in the United States and um one in New Zealand.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And slowly but surely the resume kept building.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Finally got introduced to Eric, and then summiting Everest with Eric really changed the trajectory of my life and ended up spending a decade guiding the big mountains all over the world, mostly the seven summits, the highest mountain on each of the seven continents.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that really led to getting back to policy and getting back to understanding that I've been lucky enough to see and touch and work in all of these wild, remote places with communities and cultures that are indigenous to those places, and just asking the larger questions of how are these things protected, both protecting the culture, the people, the communities, and the natural resource.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And just came back around in the United States to recognizing that that was still something that needed to be answered within our own community in our own country.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Started going deeper into the policy arena, ended up working for our former governor now, Senator Um John Hickenlooper in Colorado, as the first director of the outdoor industry office, um, overseeing the entire industry for the state.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: At the time was about a$68 billion industry.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So everything from skiing to hiking, biking, boating, climbing, hunting, fishing, everything you can think of in Colorado.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Ended up embedding in the ski industry as well, trying to help them answer what growth and sustainability looks like in the United States.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then it came full circle really working with brands.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you think about who has who holds the megaphone for how we do these things in the United States, you know, when you see an advertisement for a North Face jacket or, you know, a Lulu Lululemon yoga pad or a pair of trail running shoes or a mountain bike, the brands are really ones that amplify this question of what we ask of ourselves and of our government in this space in the United States.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I really have been lucky to lead a very diverse um life, but my life has been in its entirety in and around this industry.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you could wave a magic wand today and affect national public policy in a couple of areas around the outdoors, what what changes would you make or what messages would you deliver?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and I talk about this in the book a little bit.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I think, you know, recognizing our own power, oftentimes when you think of industries as a startup, right?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a great idea, you get a little bit of momentum, a little bit of funding, a couple of raises, and all of a sudden that idea has merit and traction and visibility.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for the outdoor industry, there was always this bifurcation of are you conservation, where you're about saving a tree or a river or a fish or a trail, or are you the industry, which is all about capitalism like skiing, um, like river guiding or things like that?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: The proposition of it's all of that.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's all of it put together.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if you actually look at it that way, our political voice should be 10x what it is right now.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Colorado started the outdoor industry office.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, there were only four other states with the rule.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in 2025, we Iowa just created an office.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: There are 25 states with offices of outdoor recreation attached to their governor's office.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: So when you ask me what we would do, what's next, I truly do think a federal office of outdoor recreation industry should be what's next to really look at these things holistically and not through their individual verticals.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of the theory of change that I have, foster, is the more technically oriented we get, the more important AI is, the more um all of these speed of technology increases.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: America has something that a lot of other places don't, and it's this it's the ability to connect with the outdoors and understand just how important it is to who we are as human beings.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to steal from the book, but I'd love you to, for people who haven't yet read it, make the case for how the outdoor rec industry can can save the world.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're already seeing it now.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I the the book's not that old, and I it's a you know less than a couple years old.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think one of the things that we're seeing right now, even the kids on Instagram, the the younger generation have this hashtag called touchgrass.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: No kidding.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this realization of, yeah, sure, Jim, uh, Jim will get your heart healthy, a gym will get your muscles strong, but there is something about fresh air and being outside that changes things.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that cultural zeitgeist is starting to evolve into this is just as important as tech.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is just as important as whatever it is, um, whatever industry that you're involved in.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so my this idea of saving the world is really understanding that when you look at it for from a through a balance lens and an equation, name one other industry in the world that is nonpartisan, nothing but good for you, and is not extractive in any way, and and whose primary goal is to protect the natural resources that facilitate the recreation.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think this idea of truly saving the world is that if if we can get this right and stand as a model for the rest of the planet, I think you're going to see um true cultural change.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Other countries have tapped on it.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Bhutan has the gross happiness index instead of the GDP.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people used to laugh at it, and now people are sending government agencies to Bhutan to understand what this means?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: How does it factor in?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because of what's happened in Scandinavian countries, doctors have the capacity to prescribe time outside as an actual prescription.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have a choice.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And this hand is a prescription for medication, and this hand is a prescription for two hours a day outside in the sun, getting fresh air.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Doctors have the ability to do that now based on what Scandinavian countries have done.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: The Japanese call it forest bathing.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the capacity to save the world is rooted in mental and physical health and well-being.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the policy and the political voice, when you have an industry, and this is the last statistic I'll drop on you, hopefully, we're over$1.2 trillion in consumer spending, responsible for over 5 million American jobs.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when you look at the other trillion dollar economies in the United States, we're bigger than the auto industry in the United States, we're uh just about as big as the pharmaceutical industry, if not a little bit bigger.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Think about their political gravity and weight and think about ours.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, this idea of pulling together all these conversations to play at that level, we already are at that level fiscally.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: We are already at that level in the context of a job engine in the United States.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now we just need to behave like it.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: I love the um the link to uh economic benefit as well as physical and emotional health that you make in this book about how outdoor rec industry has sustained and even rebuilt communities.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Very, very powerful story.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Again, highly recommended.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're the average Joe and Jane, and we're wherever we are, and we touch grass from time to time.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do to support this national conversation about how important this is?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is really the kaleidoscope of public-private partnerships and the one thing I think our industry does better than any other one out there.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see nonprofits that are started to support the auto industry.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see nonprofits that are started necessarily to support um, you know, some of these other industries that we've talked about.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: For us, it is a deeply ingrained part of our ecosystem.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you ask, you know, what can that average person do?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, first, see if your state has an office of outdoor recreation.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: If they do, get engaged, get in touch.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: They often are the hub of the wheel for a lot of this dialogue and a lot of the conversation.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And two, if you don't want to get to that level and you don't, you're not interested in that, find the nonprofit that cares about what you care about.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I guarantee that there is a group out there that loves your trail, your stretch of river, your park just as much as you do, and is working really hard to make sure that those resources are sustainable.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Find them and support them, be a part of their process.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's the best thing you can do at a macro and micro level.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Those are really good suggestions.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: We'll drop some links in the show notes based upon what Luisa has recommended here.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Lightning round kind of questions, which I try and ask all our guests.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Outside of family, what are the what is the uh one thing in your life of which you are the most proud?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I think outside of family, um I think the thing I'm the most proud of is two things summoning Everest with Eric and still being friends.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a big source of pride for me.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: The whole team is still friends.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And two is being at the start of helping to shape this national conversation that we're talking about.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm incredibly proud of the work that we did.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And Iowa literally just signed on to start an office yesterday.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: So 25 states um in 2025, at the year of our 250th anniversary, you couldn't have planned it any better.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so incredibly proud that that now has momentum and gravity and will continue.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Second question is what's the lesson you have to learn for yourself over and over?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I it's interesting.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just had this conversation with somebody foster, and I think this is important for senior leaders as well.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I I subscribe to the Jeffer, I call it the Jeffersonian model of leadership.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can't already haven't already figured out that I'm a political nerd, there you go.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's another job.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And what I what I mean by that is you do the job that you think you are best equipped to do, and then you make room for who and what comes next.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm often asked, why did you leave the Colorado director role for the outdoor industry office?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like you still have a lot to say, a lot to do.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, there was a change in governor.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: The the following governor asked me to stay.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: I did through transition, but what I said to him is what I'll share with you.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have to make room for what and who comes next.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that I've disconnected from the dialogue.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that I'm not a part of the process.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I still very much enjoy being in the mix and a part of the conversation.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: But the person that's going to sit in the chair, it needs to be someone different.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the thinking continue to evolve and grow.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: You hear it all the time with founder syndrome and you see it all the time.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh, you know, that's something for me that that has been an incredibly important part of my journey.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's outstanding.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: That resonates personally.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's something that Matt and I have gone through because I know that um I could not have grown or developed FMG leading to the level it is today.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he was the next one.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: I needed to step aside, figure out what was next for me, but allow him to take um FMG to uh a much better and higher place.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: And he's going through the same thing right now with our new president, uh Will Bush.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: You alluded to this earlier.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: If the younger you showed up and tapped you on the shoulder, what would you say to the young Luis, knowing what you know now?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Buckle up.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna make mistakes and they're gonna be spectacular.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Life's gonna be messy, um, but you're you're you're fully equipped for what's coming your way.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the fourth add-on question, Luis, is what's your gear closet look like?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: If I could move this thing, yeah.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk to my wife?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what this is?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: I know your friend Mark Gasta, and I know what his looks like.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Mark often shares he draws his inspiration from me.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have to consider I was a professional sponsored athlete for a really long time.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Free stuff would show up on the front porch to test quite frequently.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I will say now, having a family, it's evolved into um family gear, and so now it no longer fits.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: I now have to have um a storage facility to put some of it.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's a thing.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Luis, what's influencing you right now?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: What are you listening to?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: What are you reading?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: What are you paying attention to that keeps you filled up?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ooh, that's a great question.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know if you're familiar with um Steven Ambrose um and the book Undaunted Courage about the Lewis and Clark expedition.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorites.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I've I've read it a couple of times and and I've I've definitely um it's been a while since I went back to it.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I usually I'm in the middle of four or five books and constantly having to read legislation.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: When you ask about influence right now, that's the book that comes to the top of what I'm reading right now, just because you know, if you read the journals in the original versus Stephen Ambrose's version, it it really gets to this idea that the map ended at St.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Louis, and what came next was Indian country, and we're not quite sure how the waterways connected.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you put it together an expedition like that?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, podcast, obviously yours.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, come on, let's come on.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: One of the other things that as I enter different phases of my life, the the ageless athlete um is another one that's really fun.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um he he has um a lot of just incredible guests on um that uh talk about sort of these transition into their next phases.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're a professional athlete, now you're a family man or a family woman, uh, and how do you how do you still make it all work?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is it supposed to all work the same way?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's that's a really fun one.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then Aspen Ideas to go about the Aspen Um Ideas Festival.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Luis, thank you.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um I you you're always so generous with your time.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: What can we promote for you besides the book?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, definitely, you know, always love working with FMG.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not to get a plug-in for for all of you.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a lovely relationship and always appreciate the partnership.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right now, helping the other states that don't have outdoor industry offices build momentum.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: You can learn all about that at confluenceestates.com.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's really easy to find.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And other than that, like you, just trying to bring more light into the world, however, I can.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Ironically, the most oxygen-starved place on the planet.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Second, how his experiences continued to lead him to protect those things he most valued wild open spaces and exploration, to become the first state czar of outdoor recreation in the nation.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: And finally, how his testimony, captured in his book, Higher Ground, is an invitation for all of us to get outdoors, get involved, and share adventure.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Set the table, invite cool people, magic happens.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think you'd agree that Luis belongs at the table.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, leaders, stepwise.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation was worth your time, and I hope it was, do one thing for me before you close the app.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: It takes 60 seconds.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's how people like you help people like me find this show.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: And if what we talked about today sparks something in you, good, that's the whole point.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's a book called Leadership Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's the real title that goes deeper into this territory.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's on my website at fostermobley.com.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: Check it out.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then sign up for our email list to be notified when my next book, Honoring, goes into pre-sale in 2027.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's one person in your life who needed to hear this episode, send it to them.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Not because we need the numbers, because they need the conversation.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Set the table, invite cool people, magic happens.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Foster Mobley.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: As always, friends, step wise.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Our music for season three is composed and performed by Montana musical legend Philip Auburg, courtesy of Sweetgrass Music.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Phil's recent passing was felt by many, including those of us associated with this podcast.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you're not familiar with Phil's Grammy nominated music, do yourself a favor and follow him on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your music.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: We thank Patty Auburgh and Sweetgrass Music for access to this beautiful piece.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Stepwise.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Stepwise is produced, edited, and promoted by Zedist with support from Amber Gillard Consulting.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Find more episodes and resources at fostermobli.com and follow Foster on social media at FosterMobley.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time.