Latest / Art of the Question / Can We Actually Survive on Mars? - Prof. Cyprien Verseux - #57

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Can We Actually Survive on Mars? - Prof. Cyprien Verseux - #57 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: Part of your work is around s cyano cyanobacteria. I keep butchering the pronunciation of that word. No, that's fine. Okay, that's great. But these are very ⁓ special bacteria that can potentially help us survive on Mars. Yeah. The reason why we started working up them is that we want to use biotechnologies for Mars missions. Cause you know, on on on Earth we can use biotechnologies for many things, you know, food, oxygen. ⁓ biofuels, biomaterials, medicines, chemicals, and so on. And it would be good to be able to do the same thing on Mars so we don't have to bring everything with us. But the question is how do you feed these biotechnologies? And the approach we're having is based on so one of these cyanobacteria, a special one that we selected. And we've selected it because you could feed it almost directly with what you find on Mars. You it's very special and you could Give it elements you find in the atmosphere and in the ground, and that would be enough for it to grow. So you could grow it from martial resources, and then once you've grown it, so you have ⁓ you know, these cultures of this green microbe, you could use it for making nutrients for plants or other microbes, which would which could not use martian resources directly, but that could produce many, ⁓ many interesting things. Like oxygen, for example. Yeah, so they could produce oxygen themselves directly because they do photosynthesis like plants. ⁓ but they could also be used to make, you know, nutrients for growing other organisms. And these other organisms could do many things, ⁓ from you know, medicines to biofuels to biomaterials to various chemicals and and all the things we can do with biotechnologies. Yeah, and ⁓ wha what does your research into these bacteria l look like and where ⁓ do we currently stand with those? So in the past few years we've done proofs of concept for what I described, so showing that we could feed them with what we found on Mars and then use it for feeding plants and other microbes. That was ⁓ I would say our priority. Now that we're convinced that it can work, it's about two things. One is making it efficient. So we are building some hardware to test it in some some ⁓ I would say Mars-like conditions, which is not the surface of Mars, but you know, the condition you would expect in a cultivation system on Mars. ⁓ and then we, you know, looking at what can improve the growth, ⁓ modeling the growth to see you know how cost efficient it is. And by cost efficient, I don't mean you know in monetary terms, but you know, how much energy does it take. How much time does it take from the astronauts for a given amount of resources you can produce? And then there is a there is a side which is a bit more basic. We want to understand better, you know, how's our cyanobacteria manage to, you know, feed on Martian soil, ⁓ how they can survive chemicals you find in the martian ground, how they can grow at a low pressure, and so on and so on. And then we look at that at the you know cellular and and molecular level. Not so much for practical applications, but for us to understand better. Yeah, it's super interesting. And obviously we haven't discovered any conclusive there is no conclusive evidence that there is currently live on Mars or that there has been, but we do know that water has that water was present on on Mars. There's very clear evidence to support it. And more recently, I believe we found evidence of a biological signature on Mars. And the problem that we're currently having, at least is my understanding, is ⁓ we found these spots in in a rock and they found two different ⁓ compounds together that indicates that there could have been microbial life on Mars. And currently there is a sample sitting on Mars that's We really want to retrieve, but is notoriously difficult to retrieve? ⁓ but let's say that we are able to one day retrieve that sample and that we indeed confirm that this is a biological signature and that there is no other logical conclusion to be drawn that there was ever life on Mars. What would introducing bacteria onto Mars do and and how do we approach? approach the potential contamination of of Mars. Yes, that's a very good point. For two reasons. One is, you know, in case there is life on Mars today, we don't want to interfere with it. ⁓ it's very unlikely at the surface. It's possible that, you know, underground for instance, there are some some places where even terrestrial life could survive. Again the likelihood is very low. But the risk is high, so we don't want to to to take it. and the other thing is even if there is no life on Mars today, we might find some, I would say, traces of past life. ⁓ and if we spread microbes on the surface, that could, you know, give some false signals or you know lead us to to to doubt when we find actual signals of past Martian life. So so we want to keep it very clean. And the idea is not to, you know, release microbes on the surface, it is to grow them in a very well contained system. And you will need several levels of containment. You know, you would have a reactor inside something else, inside something else. Yeah, no, of course. That makes sense. Yeah, it it it it is for for multiple reasons we don't want contamination, right? One of it is the ethics of it. If there is indeed microbial life on Mars, perhaps even still, we're not sure if there is maybe underground some microbial life there, we Have evolved from microbes and Mars seems like a barren rock at this point, but we don't know what what will happen, and it would be a shame if someone ever visited our planet and disturbed ⁓ the meek microbial life that we ⁓ seem to have come from. But the other one is also very interesting that if if we do have some sort of contamination going on, that all the science we do after, we can't really answer the question properly anymore. Is this our contamination that we're currently seeing on the surface and w or was this already there? So that makes it very difficult to to do science after. Is that correct? Yeah, that makes it more difficult. ⁓ I think it would still be possible, you know, to deal with the contamination. I mean we do it on Earth. We study life in extreme environments. ⁓ And even though we don't have the same, you know, protection as we do on Mars, the same, you know requirements for sterility or for an instrument and so on, we still manage to steady life, you know, in the Arctic or in the Atacama desert and and so on and so on. But it wouldn't make things more difficult. Yeah. And and we mentioned already but part of the reason why these bacteria are so interesting is that they could potentially ⁓ provide oxygen that we ⁓ could make breathable air inside the structures we built there in into the tanks we we need to breathe. Is there currently any any alternative? Like what is the current plan of of all the the people like SpaceX, NASA, China that are going to Mars? How are they planning to provide oxygen for the astronauts potentially going there? Well you have different ways. One is simply to you know bring some tanks of oxygen ⁓ and then to recycle it. Or you could also use ⁓ the carbon dioxide in the Martian atmosphere with physicochemical systems. So basically do something similar to what the plants or the cyanobacteria are doing, but doing it with a non-biological system. And there is actually an experiment now on Mars called Moxie, which is doing that. It's not the same chemistry as photosynthesis, but it's also producing oxygen from, among others, carbon dioxide. But the thing is, I mean there there are two things. One is When you have a short mission, it's better to take physico chemical systems only. Mm-hmm. Because you know, I mean imagine you know you want to grow plants, ⁓ you need a greenhouse, okay. And it's you know, that's very big, so very inconvenient. But over the long term, ⁓ it's become more interesting. Because let's say you bring, you know, oxygen in a tank, you would need a lot of tanks for a long mission, right? Whereas if you have your greenhouse, okay, it's quite big, but it does not become so much bigger if you're staying ten years instead of one year. So the longer the mission, the more interesting it is to use more biology and less abiotic ⁓ systems. And the other thing is you want redundancy. Because you know, if you have one system to make oxygen and it breaks, ⁓ that's unfortunate. ⁓ if you have another one, which is unlikely to break at the same time because it's based on very different principles, then you're much more likely to survive. So you want redundancy and you want the redundant systems to be very different from each other. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that it was very difficult to land on Mars. Part of the reason is that there is there is lower gravity on Mars. I believe Mars is a third of Earth's gravity, but it's also the lack of atmosphere that if we use a helicopter or something on Earth, we make use of the atmosphere essentially, of the air that drones work on, that helicopters work on, that airplanes work on, so we can use that. air to create drag and that essentially creates lift and that's how we have our airplanes and everything stay in the air. Now I know that there are Martian drones currently being looked into. There there was actually a successful there have been successful drone flights on Mars already, but a drone is of course a very different beast than landing a a human aircraft on the surface. Is is that part of the reason why it's so difficult to to land on the surface? Yeah, I we we've been landing some some, you know, big robots on Mars, I think. ⁓ around one ton, yeah. ⁓ among others, yeah. And rockets. Yeah. And but but w the mass you need to land on Mars is much, much higher for humans and you cannot rely on the same ⁓ on the same systems. So that's quite ⁓ yeah, quite an engineering challenge. Yeah. And Also, that's ⁓ something we haven't discussed yet is the ⁓ infamous dust storms that are on on Mars, which are extremely challenging for for a variety of of reasons. ⁓ also when it comes to energy, right? We we are supposedly getting most of our energy ⁓ through the sun, apart from perhaps some nuclear technologies that are being worked on. But These dust storms, how how big of a problem are they when it comes to building a a settlement on Mars? I mean the the most obvious problem is the one you mentioned that, you know, if you're relying on solar panels and then you have a dust storm, and they can be very big, they can be all over the planet, they can last for quite some time. ⁓ so yeah, that would make solar energy unreliable. Yeah. And also perhaps that the dust get gets i is it like as fine as ⁓ we find on the moon? Because I understand that on the moon it's so fine that it's s super that these particles are so small that they enter into everything and that it can ruin all of the technology and get through barriers. Is that similar to Mars or not as fine? Yeah, it's it's a bit a little bit different because you're you know, you have more erosion than Mars, 'cause you know on on On the moon, for instance, the grains are very sharp because you know they've not been exposed to water or to the wind. but Mars can also have very small grains and they also have some chemicals ⁓ that you don't have on the moon that can be toxic to humans. Notably ⁓ maybe you've heard of the perchlorates, ⁓ which which are toxic. No, I I haven't heard about that. Yeah, there are some yeah, some compounds which ⁓ it's ⁓ ClO4 minus the the formula and they can interfere with your theroid. Thyroid? How you d how do you pronounce that? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure. But yeah, you see what I'm talking about. And then so yeah, they can ⁓ those they are toxic to humans. But generally speaking, ⁓ you know, the dust can be abrasive, it can infiltrate everywhere, ⁓ it can damage hardware and it will be toxic to humans. So you really want to keep it out to keep it out of your habitat. Yeah. And ⁓ w one interesting thing ⁓ about the atmosphere or the the lack thereof rather, is that we don't realize it every day, but we if we look at the moon, it's a great visual reminder of the amount of space rocks that we are being bombarded with every single day. Like sometimes we see a video of a meteorites ⁓ burning through the atmosphere, but if we don't have an atmosphere, our surface would look like the moon's surface. And now we know that Mars has some atmosphere, it's 1% of Earth's, but I assume that that 99% difference would introduce a lot more s ⁓ micro impacts on everything that we're doing there. How big of a danger is that? It is a danger. I mean you c you have a yeah risk of micrometeorites, ⁓ but you could protect against it. ⁓ in the same way you product for radiation, for instance, you know, if you have, you know, thick worlds around the habitat that would also protect you against ⁓ macrometeorites. But it's something it's a problem which is known and that needs to be taken into account. I would not say that it's a you know game stopper or a problem as big as, you know, radiation or producing resources or or landing there. But it is definitely something that is of concern. Yeah. And ⁓ If w now I wan I wanna make a segue into the simulations you did on Earth. and part of the reason why this is so important to to to do these simulations is it takes a long time to go to Mars, right? I believe ⁓ if the ⁓ planets are aligned perfectly, it takes around eight months to get there with a spacecraft. And then of course if you're going all the way to Mars, you're not going to be there for a day or two. You you probably want to stay there for a while, which means in the meantime, the planets are shifting in it into a different orbit again. That you are probably talking about a mission from like two and a half to three years. And of course, this introduces all sorts of problems when it comes to low gravity environment, ⁓ no gravity during the trip. But I think More interesting and and probably often overlooked by many people is the mental fortitude that you must have, the complete isolation and and being with a a small crew of the same people, ⁓ essentially helpless for for a very long period of time. How big of a problem is is that the the the the travel time and and the isolation part? And I probably also Wanna talk here about the ⁓ simulations you did on Earth, both in Hawaii and on Antarctica? Yeah, so I mean it is one of the what's the most unpredictable systems, humans. it's it's not it won't necessarily be an issue in the sense that, you know, if you select the right people and train them properly, you might have actually very, very good crew dynamics and and that can go very well. ⁓ but it's true that it can also go very bad if and it's sometimes a bit hard to predict because there are people who function very well on Earth. Because you know, they have a very well balanced life, they have a very strong social support, they know how to, you know, use running outside to to let the steam off and so on. ⁓ but some people Do not be of the same way at all when they are, you know, in a confined environment, isolated and so on, because they cannot rely on on what they normally use to to be so well balanced. And when you're isolated for a very long time, when you're confined, ⁓ when you're far away from from you know your family and loved ones, that can affect you quite a lot. And you see that in yeah. And you've had some experience there, right? Because you did a trip to or trip, it sounds like a fun, fun little trip. you did a Mars simulation on Hawaii where they ⁓ simulated a a Mars like environment. W and I'm what I mean by that is a structure we would likely build or something similar that we would likely build. And you stayed there for a couple of months with a group of people to kind of see what it would be like to s yeah. be on a different planet. Yeah, I was there for a year. But it was ⁓ so it was a mission HISIS 4, and it was ⁓ funded by NASA and led by the University of Hawaii to basically understand how people would behave in the conditions of a mission to Mars. And so we were in a habitat. So it it didn't look exactly the way it would on Mars. The geometry would likely be different. but it was about maybe the same size. So it was 10 meters in diameter. Or eleven meters in diameter. We were six people. We were on the slope of ⁓ the Mona V Mona Loa Volcano, which looks very much like Mars, so with no, you know, human in sight for one year. and there we lived a bit as if we were on Mars. So for instance, we're never in the open air. So when we sometimes we'd come out of the of the habitat of the dome, ⁓ within a radius of I think one kilometer around, but we were wearing some some space suits. Yeah. So we were never exposed to sun or to the sun or to the wind directly. ⁓ and we had no internet, ⁓ we had no phone, and the only way of communicating with outside was a messenging system, but there was a delay ⁓ of 40 minutes. We have 20 minutes both ways. So 20 minutes for the message to arrive and 20 minutes for the answer to come back. Like there would be on Mars. Like they would be on Mars when the planets are almost as far as they can be from each other. Okay. I think the minimum would be around three minutes, but you know, it depends on on the you know where they are with with respect to each other. ⁓ but during high CIS four it was a constant twenty minutes. And we were so we were six people and we were doing research. We were, you know, of course taking care of the habitat and so on because we were we were alone. And and we were being studied. So people were taking Well, actually we were taking because we're doing doing it ourselves. So saliva samples, urine samples, hair samples. We were wearing all sorts of sensors on our wrists and necks. and this sensor would document our heart rate, our sleep, our physical activity, our interactions as well. So it's the ones we had around our necks. ⁓ we also had some around our rib cages, actually. But the ones around our neck were Looking at how close we were to each other and how we were talking to each other. So were you screaming or whispering? and how our body was reacting to the interactions, you know, where was you heart beating faster when we were close to a given person? So like this you could have really a fine map of, you know, what ⁓ you know how we got along during the day and ⁓ who interacted with whom and so on. We also filled questionnaires, we had some scientific tasks to do where our performances were assessed. and so so really many, many aspects of our life and psychology was was recorded. And what was that like? I mean it can it sounds it sounds adventurous right now. Well we have a tendency to romanticize these things and so ⁓ that's so cool. We're doing a Mars simulation with a group of scientists and smart people who have similar interests like me and we're going to be in Hawaii, but then the reality of it is that you are stuck on a mountain and you can only ha be in touch with these six people and then if you want to contact the outside world there's the delay of course and and you can't really go outside without the the spacesuit. How what did that do to your to your mental state? I I think it really depends the people. So for me, I actually I mean I was very excited about going there and I I much enjoyed it. I mean there are times of course when you know you haven't seen anybody else for months and you know it's very monotonous. Yeah. Because you're you're always doing the same things, always with the same people. ⁓ you don't have access to new movies or new books and so it's very monotonous. But ⁓ hey, I I kind of enjoyed it because it was so unusual and I was curious also about, you know, how I was gonna react throughout the year. For some people it was a bit harder, notably people who had conflicts with others. Because you cannot you know, you cannot isolate yourself. We had some ⁓ we called them individual compartments. I think calling them a bedroom would be a bit of an exaggeration for the size of a closet. ⁓ and there was no soundproofing. So you could always, you know, know where the the others were and what they were doing just by listening. ⁓ you could not go for a walk outside as you wanted. ⁓ you could not Call a friend. So when you had conflicts, you had to be exposed to the other person continuously and you had to live with them and you had to walk with them. and that was really hard for people who really did not get along. And then of course, you know, some people were especially the people who had less to do. Because ⁓ for instance, w I had a so I had a role ⁓ there as a crew biologist. I was doing ⁓ quite some research, plus I was doing my PhD in parallel, I was doing quite some sport, I was writing. So I was wishing for more time in the day. But some people at Rawls were you know, they had much less to do. They were there mostly to react if there was an emergency. They had no not so many side projects. And I think for these people it's it's it's harder because they have more time for brooding. And ⁓ that's also one of the reasons why in Antarctica typically it's a medical doctor who is the most at risk because they just wanted for somebody to get hurt and in the meantime, you know, they have little to do and so they Yeah, they get affected by, you know, docks, so it's more easily. I can imagine. And is that also one of the lessons that were taken from that? I mean, it sounds l logical, of course, but is that something that was taken away from this experiment that if we are sending to Mars, we need to make sure that everyone is continuously occupied and doesn't have much time on their hands? That's one thing that ⁓ is being argued and I can see the logic behind that and I think for many people that would be the right thing to do. On the other hand, I feel like the kind of people you send to Mars, you know, would be the kind of people who know how to occupy themselves, you know, with just a piece of paper and some books, right? And I know that if I was on a Mars mission and people try to make me do things that I know are useless just to keep him busy, I would get annoyed because I'm like, no, you know, I want to read, I want to write, I want to learn a new language and ⁓ Yeah, so I think it really depends on profile. Plus I think people and then there is a trip, because you know, people think of going to of being on Mars, but I mean you have a year or more of travel to and from there. And people are like, ⁓ but you know, there will be little to do. People will be, you know, will be bored and depressed. But I think people who say that have never been on a, you know, long oceanic trip on a boat, for instance, you know. I mean, you're crossing the sky between two planets, and I think, you know. Enters this I mean, maybe I'm just making that up and I'm completely wrong, but I imagine it as you know a very meditative thing, you know, especially if you have a cupola and you can watch outside. I think they are you know, there is something about long travels where you get into a state where you can do nothing and you're happy with it, right? And then it's about the movement, about the big space in front of you. ⁓ at least I feel that on a boat many people do and I suspect it would be the same, you know, when you travel through space. Yeah. I c yeah, I can imagine, but again, I I think I might have too much of a romantic idea of what you look outside the window and you see the stars and you know, okay, we're going to Mars and we're going to make history. That must be really exciting. But yeah, it's ⁓ it it's always more interesting, yeah. Some s things can go wrong, of course. W what about Antarctica? Because you've been there as well. How how long were you there for? About a year as well. A year as well. And and what was the mission there? That was a bit different. So so Antarctica was not made as an analogue for a space mission. ⁓ it's mostly so it was built by the French and Italian ⁓ polar institutes, ⁓ IPEV and PNR. Mostly for Earth sciences. ⁓ seismology, glaciology, atmospheric chemistry, they're also doing astronomy, and and a few other a few other sciences. But because it's being considered by the European Space Agency at the closest you would have to a base on the moon or Mars, ⁓ every year, they are sending one medical doctor to study the people there. Yeah, because it's it's a very peculiar place. I mean you you arrive in the summer, and in the summer you You know, it's it's it's daylight twenty-four hours a day, and you can have up to eighty people on sight and you're completely isolated, it's one thousand kilometers from from the coast. So all around you for you know, up to the horizon there is no rock, no animal, ⁓ no human infrastructure, it's just ice and snow. And even underneath your feet, you have three kilometers of snow and ice before you reach some rock. So it's really remote, but in summer, you know, people can come and go by plane. It takes a few hours from the coast. But one day in February everybody goes away, except a few people, about thirteen people. ⁓ and these thirteen people then are completely isolated for nine months because it gets too cold for, you know, vehicles to to to reach Concordia or leave Concordia. So so Concordia is a station where we were. ⁓ it can go down to below minus eighty degrees Celsius. Wow. And with the with the wind, the the you know, with the windshield, the the perceived temperature can be below minus one hundred. And so you're, you know, you're really isolated in your station. ⁓ and then you have, you know, a very long night. So after the last plane is gone, ⁓ you go from continuous day to you know, continuous night slowly. So you go through an ⁓ a period when it's almost normal, sun goes up and down every day, and then you have a period where you have only, you know Sunrise followed by sunset almost all the time. And then little by little the sun goes below the horizon. And there is a period between beginning of May to beginning of August where you will not see the sun at all. It's not reaching the horizon. And that of course has a lot of effects on the psychology of the crew. Yeah, I can imagine. And talking about the psychology of the crew, both for the Mars simulation but also for the Antarctica exploration. Do you have to do some psychological test before you can go to either of those? And if so, what does that look like? What what kind of people are they looking for? Yeah, so I mean it was quite quite a big part of the of the selection. And so for ICs, the goal was to have people who were astronaut-like. So to get, you know, like the tr sam traits, you you search an astronaut, you search for an astronaut simply because You know, you want what you learn there to be applicable to future cruise going to Mars. And for Concordia, I think at least psychologically it's often harder because of this long polar night, you also have little oxygen there, about sixty percent of what you normally have, which has a lot of effects on your body. and you have the danger and you you know, you really have to be autonomous because whatever happens in winter, you know, nobody will be will be sent to help you, right? And so for Concordia, We had we had some, I would say, ⁓ psychological and psychiatric screening in a military hospital. ⁓ we had all also several interviews with psychologists. ⁓ then we had ⁓ a two-week period when we had, you know, classes and exams, but also some, you know, like rescue training and ⁓ simulations also actually. That's ⁓ yeah, there was there was a part of the training where of the selection, sorry. Where we basically were to okay, go into this building and like, okay, and what do we do? And ⁓ you know, they say you'll know and they're like, Okay. And then we get into that building and then we hear somebody screaming, like somewhere, you know, in in a room, and then so we run there and then we find somebody, you know, with blood everywhere, and and ⁓ you know, like ⁓ like a half cut arm and and ⁓ you know, an electric sew next to him and which of course was simulated, it was a comedian, ⁓ I mean an actor, but you know, very realistic. And we had no instructions and basically we had to react. And and then, you know, we basically saved that person, put them to safety, called rescue, and then we hear somebody else screaming, you know, somewhere else. Because it was a very big building with many rooms and and so yeah. ⁓ that was one example. Then we had another test where we were in a kind of in a fireman training center, kind of, and There was one thing where we go into some sort of a gymnasium to a big building. And we said, okay, you know, you're gonna come here, and then we go inside and say, okay, you know, there are these different rooms. ⁓ in this room here, see there is a switch. And then, you know, ⁓ you see here in this room and the in the ceiling there is ⁓ you know an opening where you can reach the roof with a with a ⁓ with a ladder, and see here there is a some sort of a pipe for air, you know, going going out from this room and so on. And ⁓ we're like, okay, and then we come out and said, Okay, now your task is to go inside, go to the room where there is a switch, switch the roof, come back, you know, take the well leave through the window there, and then you go back inside, you find the ladder, you escape through the roof and come come down with ropes, and then you go back and then you you know you crawl through the through the exhaust pipes. And like, okay, well, doesn't sound too difficult. And then like, okay, I'm cold. It's like ⁓ it's your turn, Cyprien. And I enter this this building and it was full of smoke. But you know, to the point that, you if I if I stretch my arm, I could not see my hand. Wow. And ⁓ and so I had to do all these things, you know, without seeing a anything, just remembering the configurations of the the configuration of the room. And then when I took in the end the I don't know if exospipe is the right word, but you know, you see what I mean. ⁓ there was some you know, military people, you know, hitting the the the the pipe from outside and screaming at me and so on. And of course, you know, that was to see how you react. And then we had ⁓ also I think it was five days where we were dropped on a glacier next to the Mont Blanc at three kilometers of altitude. And basically we were camping there so in tents for for some time and there were people from the from the Italian army yeah watching us and and so on. And then based on all these things, then they assess who was fit and not to. Yeah, so how how many people weren't selected? How many like a percentage of the people that applied? So for instance, for I know that for the IT person, there were about 300 candidates for one position. Right. And a in in a sense, it's almost sounds like the Antarctica mission. is more similar to what it would be like on an alien planet just because you're so helpless there. Like of course the environment ⁓ in the Mars simulation might be more similar to what it would be like living in an actual environment. But the knowledge that Hawaii, I mean it's a pretty big island and and it's a but you can there's a helicopter that could come in and and save you Whereas as you mentioned in Antarctica, if it's the wrong time of the year, there's literally no one who can come to save you. Yeah. That being said, I I don't think that is the biggest impact on psychology. Because you know, like you know you cannot be rescued and you know you have this you know that there is this constant level of danger. Yeah. You get used to it because it's constant. Okay. So wha what is? And I I think there's a confinement and isolation ⁓ and monotony actually have a much bigger impact. And in Antarctica the the polar night. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine that those must be pretty, pretty excruciating. What what makes for a for a good Mars astronaut, do you think? What what kind of people are they selecting for? In truth, you need to be very good at ⁓ your specialty, you know, the thing you've been selected for, plus, you know, some other things because you know if something happens to another crew member, then maybe you will be the one stepping in for them. but then you also need to be, of course, quite tolerant. You know, you should not get, you know, super upset because somebody, you know, is hanging their dirty socks in the corridor. You know, like you should really be ⁓ yeah, tolerant and open-minded. ⁓ a sense of humor does not harm. You should not be neurotic, you should be very stable psychologically, you should be able also to be happy with little things. Because if you you know if you need to go to a nightclub every every other day to be happy, then you know you you're gonna miss it there. Whereas if you can you know being if you're like, ⁓ you know, I'm locked in my living room and I cannot get out before the weekend, but I have a book and I have some paper and I can draw and I can write, then that helps a lot, right? If you can be happy in a small space. ⁓ being a good communicant. Does that word exist? Well, ⁓ being good at communicating is thing. Yeah, a communicator, yeah. Communicator, yeah, sorry. ⁓ being a good communicator helps, of course, because you're you willn't be you know telling the other what it's like to be standing on Mars, right? So you will have a lot of you will be an ambassador for your space agency and you will be sharing what it's like. Because you're of course you're the lucky one being sent, ⁓ but you're sent by people on earth who who want to explore through your eyes. So you need to be able to to share that. Yeah. Is it something you'd ever consider if if let's say the technology moves forward like it's currently doing, we are able to solve some of the issues that are necessary for humans to go to Mars? Is it something you'd be open to? Yeah, no, yeah. I would love to go. You would love you would love to go. Then come back. And I I I'm specifying it because you know there was this ⁓ Mars one project at some point who advertised ⁓ mission to Mars, which was one way, ⁓ which might make sense from an engineering standpoint, because if you don't come back, then you don't need to bring all the launch pilot and fuel and so on to come back. So it's much easier. but that's not something that is seriously considered by space agencies. I mean it's been put briefly on the table. Do we do that? No, okay, and then we moved on. Like both the European Space Agencies agency and NASA ⁓ are very clear. The fact that they would not send people unless they have a very, very good chance to be able to bring them back. So a Mars mission is not a one way mission. Yeah. That's a I I believe there was ⁓ Elon that that once proposed the plans for for the for the one way ⁓ trip, I believe. But ⁓ yeah, I mean he mentioned that ⁓ there are people before him. I think there was ⁓ I mean there also have been some serious proposals for that, which were briefly considered. ⁓ but there was I I think it became very popular when Mars won, so that ⁓ private company advertised this because it was very very much in the media and you know it got into people's head that a Mars mission would be one way. Yeah. And it w let's say ⁓ if we're talking about current current technology, there's so many hurdles that need to be solved, a bunch of which we've discussed, but there are probably many more. ⁓ what are some of the things that currently need to be solved in order for humans to go to Mars? Or is it like all of the separate technologies already exist where we just have to piece them together? Well, there there are a few things you need to develop. ⁓ say there is a landing system, ⁓ also the takeoff from Mars. ⁓ we need better ways of producing resources on site if we want to, you know, still a l you know, a long time to do research and not just plant a flag. ⁓ we need better ways to get productive from radiation. We need better ways of recycling our waste and so on and so on. But it's not, you know, it's you don't need any new physics or something really groundbreaking. It's development. Yeah. So so all of these things are within reach, it feels like. Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually more of a political question than a scientific one, in the sense that if we invests into it then we most likely can do it. And that's a big investment, but it's doable. The question is, you know, is there the political will to go there? Yeah. ⁓ a good like ⁓ you said like you would like to go, but would also like to come back, which makes sense, of course. I think ⁓ a huge help would be that sample that we've discussed, right? I mean that needs some technology to yeah, that we need to send something to Mars and then launch from the surface again, which a sample is of course very different and easier, I suppose, than sending back another spaceship that carries humans. But if we can't even do a sample, then we will never be able to do the humans. Is is that something that is actively being worked on that you're aware of? Yeah yeah there is a actually there was a clear plan for a Mars sample return mission. ⁓ which was supposed to happen which was supposed to happen, but the new, I would say, American leadership ⁓ does not seem to like the mission so much and ⁓ it's unclear whether it's gonna take place. But there was a str there was a clear plan. ⁓ it seemed doable. It's a matter of funding mostly. Yeah, that's a shame, right? There there used to be an era when when we were in the space race to to go to the moon for the first time, where of course there was also a lot of political tension between the United States and China at the time, but that actually stimul stimulated a lot of ⁓ t technological and scientific growth and that allowed for huge investments into these sorts of plans. But now that kind of seems to be brought to a halt which is ⁓ yeah which is quite a quite a shame. Is it is is China doing anything? ⁓ I I'm I'm sure they are. Yeah they are and actually we might see a new space race. I mean so now there is a lot of effort to go back to the moon through the Artemis program. So I would say it's you know very active again. ⁓ Mars is It's a bit, you know, it's not very linear because, you know, one president says we're gonna go, and then the next president says, you know, I cancel the one from the previous one and I make my own plan. so there is a bit of, you know, back and forth. But there is more and more, I would say, pressure from China, for instance, who ⁓ who is becoming very good at ⁓ at ⁓ designing and launching missions. And I would assume that if the US sees that China is about to go to Mars before them, then you know they're gonna go a bit faster. Yeah. Yeah, I would I would hope so. That yeah. I I think that will be ⁓ w will be will be interesting to see if ⁓ if if they're if they're pushing it. Of course Artemis is currently currently happening and it makes sense that we go back to the moon first before we Try to go to Mars, which is of course also ⁓ on the on the table right now. ⁓ we've we've mostly discussed going to Mars and then returning to Mars, which is obvious because at the very beginning of our conversation we spoke about the differences ⁓ between going to Mars for a short amount of time and and the challenges it would bring to actually build a per permanent settlement ⁓ on Mars. I'm I'm curious to to understand how much do we currently know about what spending time on ⁓ the surface of a planet with ⁓ one-thirds of the gravity will do to you. Because I believe the longest someone has ever been in space is around four hundred and fifty days, and it was in zero Gs, I believe. Now on Mars there is a third of the gravity, which is a lot more than zero, but still Not as much on on Earth. What is the the science saying there? And and it I can imagine that it's notoriously hard to study this. Yeah. I mean it's a bit hard to know. So there are people who are convinced that you know it's kind of linear, that you know being on Mars is better than being on the moon, which is better than being in the roogy. The truth is we don't really know. It might also not be linear. And ⁓ it might be that you know, being in Martian gravity is almost as bad as being in microgravity. It could be that it's much better. It could be that it's even better than Earth and it's actually our optimal. ⁓ I mean I don't know how likely that is, but the truth is yeah, we don't know. And I would my personal feeling would be that it is, you know, similar to the effects we get in microgravity, but milder. But that's not something which has been, you know, clearly demonstrated. Right, but there would be able to for example, when it comes to walking around or something, you could probably introduce some weight vests that may like reduce the one third to to the maybe ⁓ fifty percent of of Earth's gravity or or s or even more if you if you really ramp up the the weight. Is that something that's being looked into? I th are different contemporaries we could we could use. I mean weighing yourself could, you know, help with, you know, keeping your muscle mass and maybe your bundensity a bit. ⁓ that would not solve all problems. You know, your cardiovascular system would could also weaken because it doesn't have to pump so much blood up. ⁓ you have also some weird effect on the eye that we see in space that we don't perfectly understand, that would not be solved by it. But there are different ways we we can ⁓ fight these things. And on the ISS we managed to, you know, really, really make things better, notably through exercise. Yeah. So they ⁓ and what what does that look like? Is that like a tr ⁓ I've seen the videos of a treadmill, but is there also something that allows for maybe something with a hydraulic press so people can can lift weights ⁓ in zero gravity? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have systems for instance based with on on different types of resistance which can be used. ⁓ of course you c you know it don't make sense to lift a barbell but No, but maybe I would yeah, things like yeah. Anything that can create a resistance independently of gravity. It's a bit like on Earth when you use, you know, elastic bands. Elastic bands. That would work, yeah. Yeah, or something with like a hydraulic press that pushes down that could simulate the being on a bench press or something. Yeah, there are different ways you can do that. But basically introducing a resistance which is independent of Yeah. But the cardiovascular and bone density issues are interesting. One thing I'm I'm really interested in, and I'm I'm not sure if there is any research being done into this, but of course it sounds a bit silly to discuss a permanent establishment on Mars while we haven't even been for a short period of time. But if we would, I'm just so interested to know what it would. Whether would even be possible to have children on Mars, for example. Because assuming that we when we give birth on Earth, there's a lot of the the female body was built to withstand these pressures that come with bearing a child. And maybe if you are in ⁓ low gravity for a long time, when your bones get weaker. that it might be lethal to give birth on a planet with ⁓ the gravity like Mars. Is this something that is being considered in in the science? Yeah, I mean I think it would be I mean I would I mean of course the pregnancy and birth giving would be concerning. I think it could in theory be possible. I mean we have, you know, many animal species which have been ⁓ shown to be de t developing properly in microgravity. I would be I mean if we assume okay we find ways to mitigate these risks and giving birth becomes possible, I would be very concerned about the growth, ⁓ the development of the kid being raised there. Because of the lower gravity, because of the confinement, and and for many other reasons. I don't think it would be healthy to raise your kids on Mars, at least in the next few centuries. No, and also like when we When when someone is born on Earth in in one G, then goes to Mars, tries to train, maybe has the weight fest, and then goes back after a few years, their bodies will I dunno, might hopefully still be able to get used to one G again. However, if you are born in a third of the gravity, it'll probably not be possible to ever visit Earth. Yeah, maybe with a lot of training, but that should be difficult. Yeah, it's like so it's like moving to a planet with three Gs. Which ⁓ which will be sounds like quite the workout at least to ⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. That should be that would be quite challenging. Yeah. And and I think also Q immune system and would be might not be, you know Yeah. Able to handle more ⁓ terrestrial microbes afterwards. ⁓ Yeah, it would be it would be You would need a very, very ⁓ good preparation, I would say. Yeah, to say the least. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. is there is there anything ⁓ we we haven't touched on that you think would be ⁓ relevant to mention while we're on the discussion? I mean there's endless topics ⁓ to discuss, of course. No, I mean one question we haven't really discussed is whether it's assuming we could have a settlement on Mars and if people, you know, ⁓ give birth and the kids being relatively healthy, then There is a question of whether we actually want that. Right. The ethics of it. Well, yeah. Well what do you make of that? To be honest, I I'm more excited about, you know, ⁓ research station on Mars and than being building a city. And ⁓ I mean the point I can make is, you know, when when I left Concordia, which is you know a very small research station which is completely lost in the in the ⁓ desert of ice. Yeah. ⁓ you know, it really looks like it could be blown away anytime and that it's you know it's just tolerated by the environment. And then I went to McMurdo, which is an American station on the coast. And there it's almost a city. You know, there there is a gym, there is a church. the the landscape has been really scraped and modified and you know you have ⁓ build orders which are flattering entire areas and so on. And I felt very uncomfortable seeing that. After being in a one year in in a very, very natural wild place and seeing that That thing which had been yeah humanized. And I really, really didn't like that. I feel like it was a very beautiful and wild place that was modified in this way. And and I don't like the idea of doing the same thing to Mars. And I don't really see a strong incentive to do it. Yeah, I think I think the ⁓ the the the the most what people often say as an argument is that we're currently putting all our eggs in in one basket, right? And There could be ⁓ a huge pandemic, there could be a nuclear war, there could be an asteroid hitting Earth, and by becoming a multiplanetary species, we would kind of spread the risk. Yeah, I mean there's some truth to it. ⁓ even though there are not many scenarios in which Mars would be more habitable than Earth, right? 'Cause I mean, even if there was if there was a nuclear war and even if even in the worst case scenario of global warming, the Earth would st still be much easier to live on than Mars. And then okay, you could say we imagine there is an asteroid which is so big that it would annihilate all life on Earth suddenly. Then yes, I would say. I would be happy if there was, you know, some some civilization on Mars. ⁓ but that's a bit far fetched, I would say. I mean it's not it's not Absolutely wrong, but that's not something which is likely enough that I would be very worried about it in the short time at least. And and then you could say, okay, maybe some people would be happy to have a new life on Mars and maybe it will sound adventurous. And actually I might be excited about, you know, going to Mars even to finish my life there if I can do something meaningful. but I I don't think there is a need for, you know, millions of people. No, I I I can see I can see what you what you mean. I mean if we see some of the things we are destroying on on Earth, it would be a shame if we do that to ⁓ to more than ⁓ than one planet. Yeah, I mean I I'm not ⁓ that s you know, cynical about humankind. I'm not ⁓ I I I know that there is a lot of talk about ⁓ you know, after we've done destroying zero, destroy us. I I think it's a very dark way of seeing humankind and I think we you know We we're not that bad as a species, okay? I think it's ⁓ I agree. But I don't I I just don't see a strong reason to colonize it. Like I would be very excited about s scientific missions, about expeditions, about going there without modifying it, but you know, trying to survive and to study it and so on. Living in a city there I I feel like there is nothing. I mean no no strong reasons I can see of doing it and no r then there is not the romanticism of Yeah, I there might be some strong benefit that I I don't really see, but I'm not particularly excited personally about it. Yeah, I understand. Is there a future d do you see a future where our technology advances so much that it would become relatively easy? It would never be f super easy, of course, but relatively easy to make regular trips to Mars where we have like stations built and that astronauts ⁓ kind of like the International Space Station and kind of what we are now wanting to build on the moon. Is that something you see in the in the far future to to happen on on Mars as well? Yeah, I think that would be possible. But you know, if you if you sp speaking of you know small crews ⁓ taking turns in a station on Mars, ⁓ maybe also some facilities in orbit, I would not expect it tomorrow, but I think in the next few decades or century I could see that happening. But I would not take it for granted. You know, 'cause we always this impression that, you know, progress is linear and that here's only one direction and so on. ⁓ and that's what we observed recently, but I don't think that's true, in the sense that you can go back, you know, you can have You can have changes in the way people think, ⁓ changes in leadership of, you know, spacefaring nations, which I thought that you could actually take a step back in the in in yeah, in in research and development. So it could also, you know, never happen. And that's something I'm a bit concerned about if ⁓ if for instance people keep associating Mars with the far right, ⁓ which they have started doing, you know, in the past few years, that might never happen. Yeah, that's a shame. I think that's that's ⁓ yeah, I I don't like that perspective and I I understand why people might, but I think just trying to go forward, bring the science forward, understand more about the universe, understand more about our ⁓ sister planet, ⁓ which they call ⁓ Mars often is such a noble endeavor and yeah I really hope ⁓ we can get our our shit together and and continue to move ⁓ the science forward. What do you think ⁓ finally is a realistic timeline before humans first set ⁓ foot on Mars? It really depends on you know political decisions and and political pressure. I think you know if if if we had a very, very strong commitment, ⁓ and it was a priority I would say maybe you could b be there in 15 years. Okay. And it it might happen, but it could also be in 40 years. It could also never happen. And that can change quite fast. I mean, that's you know, you're speaking about a noble endeavor and so on. And I think that's how people used to see it. And when I started working in this field and I was talking about it, some people would find me a bit naive and a bit s fanciful. ⁓ many people were, you know, find it very fascinating. But there was no resentment. And now when I talk about my my work in in you know in public sittings, I feel that there are often people who are very, very hateful or very angry, sometimes hateful. because it has been associated now with you know speech from Elon Musk or Donald Trump and now it's very associated with them. ⁓ in France I've seen some articles about astrocapitalism and astrofascism and And how, you know, going to Mars is a dream of billionaires and but it's not true. It was a dream of many people before they showed up. And it can be like s it can be like this, you know. We can think about it again as something as exploration missions. Yeah. I mean it's it's it's a shame that people politicize ⁓ space and and and Mars. I mean I I get where where they're coming from, but I don't think ⁓ that is ⁓ is a very helpful ⁓ helpful view. You've you've written a book ⁓ about Mars as well. It I believe it's in in in French currently. Is is there an English translation as well? I mean I I've written some accounts in French, but there is a book that came out ⁓ last year where I was not the author, but I was one of the editors, which is ⁓ about ⁓ particularly it's it's called Mars and the Earthlings. and the idea is to Help people differentiate between what's realistic and what's not. You know, because of as we said in the beginning, you know, it's not the same thing to colonize Mars and to explore it. So finding what's realistic and what's not, and what's desirable and what's not. And it's a European view. So it's ⁓ European experts. So we have scientists, astronauts, science fiction writers, philosophers, ⁓ economists, ethicists, and so on, you know, discussing these things from robotic missions or Robotic missions to Mars all the way to terraforming. And that's a bit of a scholarly book, so not ⁓ you know, written not for experts in the field, but in a in a way which is quite formal. But then we have we have some some I would say summaries of it ⁓ that you can probably find ⁓ with Google. Which is more for, you know, the j general public who don't have so much time to to to read. It it's a dance book, so yeah. Yeah. And and then the the other book you're mentioning is ⁓ it actually is in French. It's an account of the of the expedition I did of the high C4 mission. Yeah, that's the one I it's called Vivre sur Mars. And then I wrote one about the mission in Antarctica, which is called An Hiver Antarctica. By the but they they they are they are both they're both in French. ⁓ they're both in French. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also had a I also had a blog in English during the high CIS formation, ⁓ which is probably embarrassing. I haven't looked at it in ten years, but it's called Walking on Red Dust. Cool. Okay, is there is there any ⁓ other place ⁓ people can go if they wanna keep up with ⁓ your work? Maybe some things you're you're currently ⁓ working on or going to ⁓ publish? I mean I have a LinkedIn account where I sometimes ⁓ you know posting related to my work. I also have Instagram and Facebook. I'm very little active. I only post when I have something to say, which I think I'll be interesting to everyone, which is roughly once in a year. Okay. but yeah, if you want to be informed of, you know, future expeditions I might do or future books I'm I might write, then then that could be a place. Awesome. Is there any expeditions you have lined up currently? Yes, I do have two, one for next year and one for the year after. ⁓ but I prefer to speak about them once they're done. Okay. Okay. Well, ⁓ I ⁓ I'll I'll see them ⁓ on on on one of the feeds you ⁓ you mentioned when ⁓ when the time is right. Civrian, thank you so much for for coming on the show. This was incredibly interesting. I yeah, I learned a lot and it's been fascinating to hear your accounts about what it was like. living in those simulations and and hearing your insights from someone who knows kind of knows what it might feel like ⁓ to do such an endeavor like that. So thanks a lot and ⁓ yeah, this was great. Yes, thanks a lot for having me.