Latest / UK Column Radio / Mike Robinson | A Thousand Words (Part 1 of 3)

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Mike Robinson | A Thousand Words (Part 1 of 3) · UK Column Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So then what happens if you're if you're engaging with
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: social media and and you're getting nothing but abuse there,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: or you're engaging in a chat in a chat box
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: and you're getting nothing in abuse of abuse there for
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: people that are supposed to be more or less aligned
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: with you on the arguments, then of course that is
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: only increasing people's trauma. And if people in the community
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: aren't prepared to admit they're wrong, then how are we
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: better than the mainstream? And it can't be discussed if
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the attitude of the truther is is Cam trails and
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: and they're spraying us and that's it and I'm not
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: having any other conversation. And the attitude of the non
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: cam triller is camp trails are conspiracy theory. That and
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to get because I'm don't talk to
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists, right, those two groups will never talk to
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: each other.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Mike, Welcome to the what's become then, as the dentist chair.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I think between the three of you, no need to
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: be nervous, There's no need to be nervous, there's no pain,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: no pain involved. This life doesn't go anywhere needs I
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: think you are you not used to necessarily talking about
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Mike Robinson. Is that practice the way you've avoided that
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: or you're like, okay, well this is the time to
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: overcome those those demons. I suppose what this aspect of
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: the show is about is getting to know the people
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: behind there, you know what we normally see, Okay, strapping.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I wanted to start with just asking you what what
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: the UK column means to you?
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, where did I start with that?
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Well, there's obviously it's a big question, and it you know,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: it's wraps up with you what twenty years now pretty much,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: well nearly.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Getting getting close to the columns twenty now, Yeah, quite
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: I started a couple of years. Yeah, and I hear
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of people talking about struggling to cope with
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: what's going on in the world, and they switch off
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: and they have become I hate to use the term,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: but they become non playing characters. To use that term,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: they're not taking part in anything. And so what the
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: column is one hundred percent of outlet for all the
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: kind of any angster, any kind of fear or any
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: kind of a just stuff that that it absolutely is
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: a way to stick it to the people that are
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: doing what they're doing.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: To this, right, That's okay, that's an interesting way when
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: it say it for you, it's a lot about empowering people.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I'm going to say it absolutely starts
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: with myself, but I hope that that helps other people
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: imparts other people as well. That's the at least.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: In what way?
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: In what way do you mean by what do you
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: mean by starts with yourself?
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Well, because it's what I mean is it starts with
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: with It is therapeutic in this therapeutic in the sense
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: that it helps, it helps deal with what's going on
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: in the world, but it does it in a hopefully
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: in a proactive way. It's it's in a productive way
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: rather than just you know, stressing about what's going on on,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: channel that energy and hopefully making something a little bit better.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And ultimately, for me, the ultimate aim of everything
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: that what we might call the movement is about is
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: very on very simple terms, is to end unnecessary suffering.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: And we see a lot of suffering which is perpetrated
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: by these powers that be, whatever form we want to
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: go into the details of that, right, but that seems
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: quite similar to what you're saying that you want that
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: you you want to empower people because there's a lot
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: of they're struggling, don't they.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Like you say, lots of people are struggling.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the first thing you said, and that's a very
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: sort of empathetic way.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: And I mean, I don't I don't ever want to
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: view myself as being any kind of role model. That's
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: not the im of it. But you know, at the
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: same time, you know, if if what we do here
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: encouragees other people to do something similar, then then then
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: to some degree we've succeeded. You know, nothing is gonna
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: nothing's going to change unless people get directly involved.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: What do you think, well, I said, now again big questions,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: but what do you think stops people from actually getting involved?
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: A lot of the time, a.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Lot of with some people, there's no doubt fear is
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: part of it. But equally, you know, there's there's people
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: have lost the sense of agency, people have lost the
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: sense that they can't actually do anything. They're looking at
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: these you know, the billionaire classes. Well it's not a
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: trillion air class, and they're saying this to themselves, this
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: is too big. What can I do? And of course
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: as individuals, we can do very little. It's when people
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: start cooperating and start collaborating and and then there's a
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: there's an opportunity to you know, build something and do
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: something that that can beat these people. And you know,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: there's been plenty of examples of over the last ten
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: or fifteen years that I can think of small victories.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: But small victories, lots of small victories is what we
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: should be aving for.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I seem to I just pick up on
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: that because you said as individuals, we can't do a lot,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: which on a practical level, I completely agree with you.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: But we could talk about that a bit later because
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: there is a I think perhaps you agree to some extent,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: there's an extent to which a lot of the work
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: has to be done first with the individual, doesn't it.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: You have to almost prepare the ground.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: You have to.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: You have to be willing to look at stuff that
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: is uncomfortable. Do you see what I mean? So I
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: think that's part of the part of the whole process,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: isn't it.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But aside from that, you know, a big part
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: of this processes each of us sorting ourselves. Yeah, it's
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: not it's it's not just about word change. It's also
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: about inner change. And you know that that's that's a
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: big part of this journey as well. Yeah, that's how
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: we develop as individuals. Yeah.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's why I'm fascinated by the movement
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: as a thing in itself. So we've got the we've
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: got all the problems in the world that we're trying
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: to either expose or find solutions for. I think it's
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: the kind of joint process, isn't it. We have to
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: expose the crap that's there, and then we also have
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: to engage in some process of replacing it with something better.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: So that's what kind of seems to me the way.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But at the same time, the movement, I'm not
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: sure that there is a movement.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's what I was going to get to,
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: and I think but.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: We can maybe if you want to talk about that later.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: But but you know, I certainly have some views about
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: the movement as it is at the moment.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And we can start there if you want.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: We can start there, because I think, I mean, one
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: of the reasons I like doing the podcast and talking
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: about this stuff is I to some extent, I've stopped
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: looking at the details because it got me so far
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: and it was necessary at a certain point in my
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: life for a sort of ten year period, and then
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: there was a point where I found it was it
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: was unnecessary almost to go beyond a certain amount of detail.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: And what what I've.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Sort of become more interested is is is the psychology
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: in the mind and what's what's actually going on with people?
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: And how once we've once we've once we've agreed and
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: understood that there is an agenda, that there is deception
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: going on, then how do we move forward from that?
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes I listen to you and I
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: feel I feel as similar. Obviously, you're very part of
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: your job is to know a lot of details. You know,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: when I listen to you in German, Charles, you know,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: it's very impressive how much you know. And I think that,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: like I said to Brian, part of the UK column,
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: the role is to provide that information, so it's absolutely vital.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: But I also think with you that there's a certain
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, I see a certain frustration at
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: times with what people are doing with that detail. I
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: don't know if that's fair, Maybe that.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: It is and it isn't. What frustrates me is when
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: people who are in the movement in verted commerce become
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: just as if not more ideological than people that are
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: not in the movement. And you know, my view is
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: that that as much as we criticize and challenge and
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: hold accountable what's going on in the broader world, we've
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: got to criticize and challenge and hold the kindibi ourselves
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: as well. And if we are if we've decided that
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: the truth is this this little box over here, and yeah,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: we everything, everything then becomes closed. There's no discussion outside
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: of that. Well that's not a truth movement.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, so, and that's where I agree with you absolutely,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: and I think in a way, well it's at least
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: equally important that that that is addressed and becomes part
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: of this conversation that we're having, because if we just
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: focus on facts, but we're not focusing on how we
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: responding to that and how how we're navigating what we're discovering,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: then we're just going to keep repeating the same crap. Really,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: it seems to me, which I think is what you're
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: similar to what you're saying, and you know, you see
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: that the abuse that is thrown within.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: The movement, this is a bit that I do find
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: probably the most frustrating you know, if there's genuinely a movement,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: then that movement should be I don't put this, that
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: movement should be empathetic, positive, and empathetic to other people
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: within the movement, even people that have slightly different views
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: to yourselves, and you know they should people should be
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: supporting each other within a movement. I see people wanting
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: to rip each other's heads off more within the movement
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: that outside the movement is quite incredible, and that just
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be. Shouldn't be the way it is. And that's
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: why that's that's part of the the inner growth part
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: of this as well, you know, because you know you've
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: got to you've got to be willing to negotiate and
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: talk and discuss instead of tearing each other to shred.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: What what what is it?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Then?
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: Why? Why is that manifesting?
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I've got my theories and how I see it, But
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: what what do you think really is at play with that?
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: In fighting and the and the and the confrontation and
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: the name calling and what's what's going on?
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Immaturity? And I don't mean that in the sense that
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: people are children. I just mean that where things stand
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: at the moment, a lot of people have come to
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: this very very suddenly over the last couple of years,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: and they haven't had the experiences yet. And and also
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: just the the toxicity of social media and the pond
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: that people are playing in that that rubs off. So,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: you know, as much as we've got to engage with
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: what is going on, we've got to also keep a separation.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: We've got to learn how to how to keep ourselves
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: slightly aloof from the the the amount of nonsense that
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: there is out there, right, and and be very discriminating
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: about what we're going to accept into our minds and
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: in our hearts, right because because first of all, a
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: lot of what's out there is bot driven, it's not real,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: it's designed to wind people up. And you know, so
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: you know, my view is that I I said this
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: many many times, I have I understand people. A lot
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: of people have come to this and hit the use
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: of turn Ye.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: I think we're all tired of that.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But walking up very very suddenly, and whereas you know,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: some other people have woken up gradually over yeah, twenty
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: thirty forty years, that's a much easier process, yeah, I think,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: and you end up being able to handle a lot
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: of the stuff that's out. They're a lot better if
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: you've managed to be able to do it over a
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: longer period, if it's all been very sudden and it's
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: come on you like a bomb burst, then I completely
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: understand why there is a level of well, there's experience required,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: let's put that way, and that's the only time can
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: resolve that.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it can be overwhelming for people, yes,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: but also you know, from my own experience over more
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: than twenty five years, you see, yeah, you see your
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: own how your own failings have come and gone, and
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: how you've perhaps seen it from one perspective and then
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: had that change. You know, if I look at say
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: the natural health alternative world, which is very parallel to
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: the whole political thing, it's all tied in, but that's
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: a certain aspect of the kind of await community looking
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: at alternative health and pharmaceuticals and that whole thing. And
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: then you've got a whole industry built up on alternative health.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: And you know, over the years, I've you know, bought
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: this pill and this supplement and done this and thought
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: that was the answer, and tried this diet and you know,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: and then I think, over over that amount of time,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: you become let you become a bit more humble, I suppose,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: because you realize that, well, five years ago i was
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: eating a rural vegan and now I'm eating raw meat.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: You know, it's or whatever it might be. I'm not
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: saying exactly although I have done both those things. You know,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: you see that the beliefs that you had you don't
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: hold now. But that's not to say we've abandoned the
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: idea that yeah, big farmers crap and we need to
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: find an alternative. Last year I won the Sussex Portrait
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Artist of the Year competition. It's a timed event where
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: you have four hours to complete a portrait, and this
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: year I'll be taking part in a larger national competition
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and I've been practicing timed portraits from photographs sent by friends,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: mainly from the Hope, Sussex community. These portraits will be
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: on display at the Hope, Sussex Music Festival in August,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: so get your tickets, come along and support a brilliant
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: homeschooling project. As a result of this, I've decided to
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: offer what I'm calling day portraits alongside my standard portrait commission. Normally,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I spend a week or two on a portrait, making
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: sure the likeness is one hundred percent accurate, and offering
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: revisions and complex backgrounds. My day portraits are simpler and
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: customly three hundred and fifty pounds, a fraction of the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: cost of a full commission, and so far the response
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: has been one hundred percent positive. So if you're looking
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: for something unique to either gift or having your home,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: get to my website Jakefern dot co dot uk and
• 17:11
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• 17:14
  Speaker 2: what you receive.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: That's all true, But you know, I think it's I
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: think it's a very dangerous direction to go in. If
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: we are saying that everything that's mainstream should be chucked
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: in the bin is a very bad idea. And I mean,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: you know, one exam he won't you know, well he
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: can't mind any more of it, but he wouldn't have
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: minded me saying this, you know. In our career, Yeah,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I was producing his programs and so I witnessed his
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: health challenges as he lived with cancer. And the fact
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: of the matter is there was just to give one example,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: there was no alternative solution to pain relief for him, right,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: and and ultimately you know he had to take the
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: pharmaceutical pain relief now he he uh so there. My
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: point is that there are some things that some areas
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: where we can't avoid interfacing with mainstream. And I don't
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: think we should be avoiding interfacing with mainstream if we
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: if we look in the in the journalism space, there
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: are good journalists out there, not very many of them anymore,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: but there are and have been good journalists out there
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: working in mainstream. And occasionally there is some good mainstream
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: work done. But that doesn't mean so so you should
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: we shouldn't be abandoning everything about the mainstream.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Well, this this is the danger of of the if
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: you know the name there in the game type mentality
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: of that. You know, and it tends to just shut
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: everything down, isn't it. You know, if you think everything
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: is that sewn up? And why why why even bothering?
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I say often you know that the world is not
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: black and white, and lots of people seem to get
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: caught up and there's this black and white view of
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: the world it is it is shades of gray and
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: and so uh you know, it's how we navigate our
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: way through that is part of the journey that we're
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: all on Yeah.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you agree. We're interested
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: in what you think. But it feels to me that
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: people are so scared of being duped. We're not scared,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: but they're so wary of being duped again. Once you've,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: once you realize you've been deceived to some extent, you've
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of people are so desperate not to be
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: fooled again that they are wary of literally everything they think.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: They think. They think everything is a lie. Literally every
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: I mean that actually, you know, people will actually say
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: everything is a lie.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And I had this debate with someone yesterday, So what
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: that's clearly not true. Not everything is a lie, because
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: if everything was a lie, that your car wouldn't start
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: in the morning, you know, So like, at what point
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: do you know what?
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: I think what they mean is that everything that they're
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: told is a lie.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's what I mean, everything they're told, they're
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: told about how fuel works. For example, at what point,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: you know, are we breathing oxygen? Do trees you know,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: use chlorophyll?
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Whatever?
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Like, because they will go that far. It's like, literally
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: everything is a lie. Everything we were told in the
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: mainstream is a lie. I think, well, how does that,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: how does that work?
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: You know, well, I think that this is this is
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: part of the problem in the sense that the they
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: announced they whoever they is, several years ago that we
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: were heading towards the post truth world. So they told
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: us what they were going to do to us. They
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: told us they were going to carry out some kind
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: of psychological operation to convince us that the truth is unknowable.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: And it seems to me that the person who decides
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: that everything is a lie and you can't know the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: truth has fallen for that gag hook line and sinker.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Learning how to concern the truth got to be should
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: be this. Surely that's the central goal of the truth movement,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: isn't it.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I think so, yeah, well exactly, yeah, totally. And that's
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: why I think it's That's what I meant earlier when
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I said talking about this is just as important as
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: talking about the details.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: But you know, part of this is that people. You know,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: there's two a couple of categories of people in the world.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: There's people that produce. You're a producer, you're producing something
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: at the moment. We're producers because we produce information in
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: a particular format for people. But most people are consumers.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: They just consume what's on YouTube or what's on the
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: UK column or they right, And because there's no active
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: participation in that, it becomes very hard to know. Right.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: So what I have always said, and what I would
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: prefer people do, is to take the information that we
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: give and check it. Just that simple process of checking
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: something is a productive act and that helps you learn
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: how to discern what the truth is. Yeah, it's a
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: very simple thing to do. But part of the problem
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: is that people have decided that simple things don't achieve anything,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: and so they don't do even simple things.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so what you think you mean they're looking
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: for the big, big solutions.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Well, every other every other sentence out of my mouth
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: of the woman is this is the problem. But it
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: is the problem. This is why Donald Trump exists, This
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: is why Nigel Farage exists. This is why these types
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: of people exist. People are looking for the big hero
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: to come and see. They've lost sight of the fact
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that they are the big hero, every single one of us. Yeah,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: in a you know, by making a small contribution as
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: as as a population to make each each person is
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: making a small contribution society in some way that that
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: is what builds our future. And and but most people
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: have abdicated that idea.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why done that? Why why do we do that?
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Why is it?
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Is it human?
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Sure?
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Or is it again? Is that part of the deception,
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: part of the.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's part of the deception. I think
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: we've got to go back forty years to two the
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: time of thatcher. What was it was Harry Anfield's loads
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: of money? Yeah, that that was that was part of
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: the part of the psychological operation has been played. This
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: this individualism and and you know, the systematic breakdown of
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: family as well as has been a big part of this.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean there's a whole host of of
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: examples that we could give of of how people have
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: been have had their their agency taken away, even just
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: the you know, even just by having a political system
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: that's that's such a pile of crap that people don't
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: want to be involved with it, and people become politically cynical.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: It's completely understandable. But instead of stepping in and trying
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: to do something, then people just withdraw from it completely.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe this is a feature of human nature, but it's
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: one we got to beat.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm not saying the solutions are political, by the way.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying that the solutions are in actively taking
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: part in some capacity. Well you know, and some day
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: somebody is going to be creative enough to do something
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: which is which is is actually going to stick.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: People are essentially with the way I see it is.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: People are so traumatized from the moment they're born. You know,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: look at say, my wife's dad died recently. He was
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: eighty something, and.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: His dad.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Was in the Second World War, came home from the
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: war broken, man, has so many did part of his
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: brain taken out? That was the level of care mental,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: you know, healthcare that and became this kind of shell
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: of a man who was his So that was with
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: his dad's father. So that was with his dad's role model,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: you know, and then you see these repercussions knocked down,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: don't you. So how does like his dad wouldn't really
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: engage with the world. You know, if I if I
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: ever brought anything, ever brought anything up in our kind
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: of conversation or realm with him, it's shut down instantly.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Now that's not necessarily because he's stupid or incapable or
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: you know, I have to look at him and think
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: where has he learned the tools? What tools has he
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: got to deal with stuff that's uncomfortable. He's probably still
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: reeling from his father being, you know, being a broken man.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: And so it's all these kind of and I think
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: that tithing was what you were saying about kindness with
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: each other if we disagree.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: He's always remembering I have to remind if you.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: If you are, if you have been on the receiving
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: end of I mean every you know, everybody's been on
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the receiving end of some form of trauma as well,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: COVID for example. No, no, I know, I appreciate that,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: but but everybody's been right, so people have been traumatized
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: by what happened over lockdown and all that kind of stuff.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And of course, what was announced towards the end of
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: the COVID period was this term that the that the
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: World Economic Forum and others used, poly crisis. Okay, right,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: so it was it was It was clear to us
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two or whatever that as we started
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: to see this term rolling out into various documents that
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: we were going to get we weren't going to get
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: a chance to recover from that twenty nineteen to twenty
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: twenty two period. We were going to get bombarded with
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: crisis after crisis after crisis after that, keeping people more
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: and more destabilized and traumatizing trauma and top of trauma
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: and top of trauma, And that's pretty much what's happened.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: So people haven't had a chance to recover from lockdown.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Even so, then what happens if you're engaging with social
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: media and you're getting nothing but abuse there, or you're
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: engaging in a chat in a chat box and you're
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: getting nothing in abuse abuse there for people that are
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: supposed to be more or less aligned with you on
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the arguments, then of course that is only increasing people's trauma.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: So you know, I'm not sure I have any answers
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: on how to how to deal with that, But but
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: you know, stepping back from that type of argument and
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: just giving ourselves the time to think is is good
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: as long as the result of that thought processes is,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: you know, you find another way to re engage again.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: I think I think what a lot of people struggle
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: with is is saying I'm not sure.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Or more than that, just saying actually I was wrong.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Well that's the next Well, I said, that's the next step,
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: is it that?
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Well? But that's that? That right there is the key
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: thing because because you know, yeah, too many of us
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: are are I'm right?
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: And and I'm only ever right? Yeah, I mean, but
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: that but that's we all do that to a certain degree.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: But they did.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: But why do we do that?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: I think we do that because when we were little,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: you weren't allowed to if you were wrong, you were
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: in trouble. You don't get your sweets, you don't get
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: you put in, You don't you know, you don't get
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: to play out you learn, don't You're right from an
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: early age not to be wrong, to hold onto your story.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, you're the weak one if you're wrong,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: and we're just Our culture is so tight on that.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: There's absolutely no in the school system. There's no education
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: about it. We don't teach our children to admit that
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: they're wrong, that it won't have dire consequences. It's like,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: the consequences if you're wrong are pretty painful.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: And sure, but the mainstream never admits is wrong. No people,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: And if people in the community aren't prepared to admit
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: the wrong, then how are we better than the mainstream exactly,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: and surely that's the goal here is we've got to
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: be better.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're not better than you're not building something better.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean going. You took a lot about evidence.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I think whatever you talk about, you'll say, Okay, well
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: just show me the evidence, which for me is so
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: fundamental and if the evidence suggests this, yeah, I'm not
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: attached to that, you know, but but people just get
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: so attached to their worldview, whether it's veganism or carnivore
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: or flat or globe or virus or no virus will
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: come to that, don't worry, cant or yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: You know, this is the big one of the moment. Yeah,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: let's talk about that. Because I'm no expert, I've you know,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: obviously it's been circling literally metaphorically for me for like
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: last twenty years. I remember when I first found out
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: about can trails. I was angry, frustrated, felt power shouts
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: like the mad person in the street, like just random strangers.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Look at what's this?
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Do you think this is normal? You know that's going
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: back I don't know, twenty years or whatever. Then there
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: was a point where I just thought, whatever's happening. Me
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: shouting about it and getting upset about it certainly isn't helping.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: So I'll park it for a bit. And then since then,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I've had so many different takes on it, people who
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: have worked in the military, people who you know.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Observe place.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: So you tell me where you're at with it and
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: why you think it's something worth.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: There's there's a couple of separatus's here. One is what's
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: actually going on? That's one thing, yeah, And the other
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: thing is what are we going to do about it? Yeah?
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: If we've got to focus on what are we going
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: to do about it? The only way that the only
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: way to do something about it is to be able
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: to communicate with people about it. Now, if you if
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: you your approach to communicating with someone who knows nothing
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: about the topic is to to go in with a
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: sledgehammer and say they're spraying us, they're going to kill us.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: All this is a depopulation agenda. What kind of reaction
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: are you expecting to that? Now, I that's on one side.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: The other side is what are we actually seeing? And
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: again this comes for me, this comes down to what
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: does the evidence say right now? If what we're saying
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: every day that we see persistent controls in the sky
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: spreading out and creating this milky gray sky. If what
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: we're seeing every single day is a spraying operation of chemicals, yeah, well,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: where's the contracts, where's the where's the evidence that shows
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: that the planes are flying with that are full of
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: some kind of material to be sprayed? Where the tankers
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: they are doing this? And if our skies are filled
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: with tankers that are spraying us, And where's the commercial
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: where's the commercial aviation happening?
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Ye?
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: My personal I've said it many times, We'll say it again.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: I absolutely accept that there is weather modification experimentation going on.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: But what proportion of what we see is that? And
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: what proportion of what we see is ordinary airline traffic? Now,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: if what we're saying is ordinary airline traffic, then actually
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: the big problem here is one a pollution. And if
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: the big problem is one of pollution, then on a
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: day like to day, when there are no contrails in
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: the sky, has that pollution stopped or the plane still
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: flying and still pumping out that stuff out the back? Well,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: I think that's exactly what's going on. The planes are
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: still flying, They're still pumping out pollution? So what are
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: we going to do about that? Just because it hasn't
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: created a contrail today, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: What what what is being pumped out the back of aircraft?
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: What is where is that eventually settling on the earth?
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Is that landing on our on our But aside from that, actually,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: what is the bigger issue? Is the bigger issue what's
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: being pumped out the back of aircraft? Or is it
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: what's being directly sprayed on our crops already by by
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: mainstream farming? Right, So so the whole there's there's a
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: whole can of worms here. That's that that that could
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: be discussed, but it can't be discussed if the attitude
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: of the truther is it's contra, it's caemtrils and and
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: they're spraying us and that's it. And I'm not having
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: any other conversation And the attitude of the non cam
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: triller is a is are conspiracy theory?
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: That?
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: And I'm not going to get because I'm don't talk
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists, and and and there's nothing going on actually,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: and it's and uh, you know, we don't need to
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: worry about airline what airlines are doing? Right, those two
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: groups will never talk to each other. So how do
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: we get.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Which suits them totally fine?
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Suits everyone totally fine. It's particularly suits the airlines totally fine. Right. So,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: so if you're going to say that there's weather modification
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: going on, show me the evidence. There is evidence for it,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: but it's pretty small scale compared to what we see
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: on a daily basis. And so if that's not, if
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: that's not whether modification, then what is it? And if
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: it is, if everything that we see is what whether modification,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: then show me the documentary evidence that proves that that's
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: what it is. Because you know, what this always comes
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: down to, what the truth comes down to is what
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: is your what is your threshold the proof that you're
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: prepared to accept, what's the standard you're prepared to accept?
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: And if if the standard is below the standard of
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: mainstream media, then you're no better than mainstream media.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, well that's.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: This is this is where the problem is. Here we go.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Again, Well, we're problem solvingn't we. I mean that's essentially
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: what this whole thing is about, isn't it. We're trying
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: to solve problems? So yeah, I mean and then and
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: then you get into that there's the kind of truth
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: in the in the normy accusation or you just watch
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: the YouTube VideA because unfortunately, yeah, to some extent people
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: in the movement are guilty of that.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Well, that comes back to what I was saying earlier.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Are you Are you a producer or a consumer? Are you
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: an active participant or a non playing character? Yeah, and
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: if you're just consuming, then you're not. Actually you haven't
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: played any role in the in coming to the conclusion
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: that you've come to. You've just sucked in information and said, yeah,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, well that that's that's not true. The
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: only way that anybody can be sure or get close
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: to the truth is to is to actively seek out
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the answer just to a particular question. Yeah, and just
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: watching a YouTube video is not cutting it.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't want to be you know,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: there's some pretty good stuff on YouTube.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: So I know for sure we're all part of this.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: We're all part of this information.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to dismiss it. But it's the attitude, isn't that
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: goes with that? Is like you say, the standard of.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: You've got to we've got to be actively challenging everything
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: we've see, no matter what the source, and that that applies.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I expect people to do that to us as much
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: as I would expect that I would do that with
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: every other piece of information that I find. Yeah, because
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: if I'm not checking it and confirming it either way,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: then I'm not doing it, not doing my job.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's tricky. It's tricky because at times when
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: you do engage with people and you see that they're
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: not even thinking logically, you know, regardless of who's right
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: or wrong, that they're clearly just not thinking logically. They're
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: not that their arguments at all.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, for example, I got an email this morning
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: that said that said, what was it, I'm confused by
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: your position on controls? And that was it, just one sentence,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: and then posted a link to to a Twitter post
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: from Andrew Bridge where he's taken a video clip of
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: a plane with you know, a control coming out the
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: back and U and that was it. So there's no
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: argument there, there's no discussion. I've discovered this. I've discovered that.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Here's why I think what I'm thinking, it's just I
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: don't get your position. That doesn't advance to the conversation.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Well, then it's then it's tricky because you get in,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: you get into the area of why that is. So, yeah,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: forget all the we'll not forget, but taking into account
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: all the all the trauma and the psychological problems. But
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: are people capable, I mean, are people actually capable of
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: putting together a logical argument? So I'll give you an
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: example again. And I don't spend all my time arguing
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: with flat earthers, but it comes up now and again.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: I was on Stephen A. Jung's sub stack. He's an
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: astrophysicist who I think would be described as a flat earther.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: And I commented, and someone someone made a comment under
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: his post, Well, people see the Earth. Sorry, they see
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the moon go across the sky, and they see the
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Sun go across the sky and the same path.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: And yet they think the.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Moon is going around the Earth, but the Earth is
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: going around the Sun. Okay, so they're making some kind
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: of logical claim that because the moon and the Sun
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: appear to do the same thing in the sky, they
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: must be both doing the same thing. So I simply said,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: like I didn't. I was very calm, and I really
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: make sure I'm calm and don't get emotional based on
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: the let's assume let's not assume the heli centric model
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: is correct. But if we use the helio centric model,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: that is what you would see. So if the moon
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: was going around the Earth and then we were going
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: around the Sun, they would both appear to be crossing
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: the sky, which is true.
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: You know you can't.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: So you point out something very logical like that, And
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: then I was basically accused of having sex with animals,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: you know, because and I'm just thinking, I'm all I'm
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: doing I'm not even I wasn't even making a claim
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: for the helio centric model. I was simply saying, if
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: the Helissen model is true, we would see what we see.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: So you're so your critique of the healthy centric model
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: doesn't make sense.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: So last year, forever since the flat earth thing really
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: took off, the flat earth community has acknowledged that there
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: can be or they have claimed that there can be
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: no twenty four hour son in Antarctica because if you
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: imagine the pizza model, then of course their son never
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: You can't have a twenty four hour son on the
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: pizza model, No, because it has to be because the
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: son's always north of the of Antarctica, which runs around
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the right because the son is always on the inside
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Because just did you explain to people who might
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: not be sure that if the standard flat Earth model
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: is the one that most people argue for, is basically
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: there's a flat disc, the south pole is the pizza
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: crust is the.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Crust is the external parent.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the north pole is bang in the middle, right,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: So and and and the basic idea is that the
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: planets aren't moving way stationary and then sorry, the Sun
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: and the moon circle above the flat plane. That's it, right,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: that's the standard model. So therefore, what Mike's saying is
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: that you can't have a twenty four hour sun because.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Well, you're you're right on the edge and so you're
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: as as far as south as it can go. So
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: if so the sun can't go further side of the news,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: you can never right. So so I can't remember the
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: guy's name, but but a guy in the state sponsored
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: some glovers and some flaties to go to Antarctica last
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: for the winter solstice last year, and they were a
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: number of flat earthers.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Went, and many refused to go.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Many many refused to go. And I think the two
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: that did go. There were two or three went, but
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: one of them stood by his his words where he said,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: you know, if if I see a twenty four hour son,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: I'm abandoning the flat Earth. So so you know that.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: But the amount of absolute vitriol that that the people
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: that went God from the flat earth community, from from
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: the people inside their own flat earth community that they've
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: been that have been their best myths right up to
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: that point, and because because the the people in the
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: flat earth community viewed it as being some kind of
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: ideologically on child, I mean, it's worse than than the
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: worst sort of you know, heretic religion, Spanish inquisition. Yeah, yeah,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: and and so again, you know, if if people are
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: setting themselves up to be better, they've got to be better,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: and that that is not better.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's it's just more of the same,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: isn't it Just more of the same. And it's interesting
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: you say, yeah about the evangelical religious aspect to it,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: because you know, when we went to the Sounds Beautiful
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Festival a year before last, there was a flat earth
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: tent and they even had a sign which basically implied
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: that without flat earth you weren't going to ever be
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: happy or reach reach a state of oneness with God
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: or you know, it was incredibly sort of damning and
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: like it was the most important thing on the on
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: the on the planet.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: To know you.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: And this again is just more more. Okay, we're trying
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: to unpack how we move forward because we can do
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: all the hard work that the UK column has done
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: for twenty years, and you know, you can inform people
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: and you can give people facts. If they're still going
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: to get caught up in mind games and emotional drama
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: and if they're not going to actually be rigorous with
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: their thinking, it's going to be of limited value, isn't
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: it to a lot of people? And I suppose maybe
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: that's just the way it has to be.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would go further, no value, Okay,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, but as I say, this is,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: this is, this is the journey we honored. We're honored
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: as much of a fight with ourselves as it is
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: with anybody else.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how do you say, well, we can
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: talk a little bit about because I don't know what
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: you I don't know what your beliefs are in terms
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: of religion, soul, spirit, what's not manifest here. I don't
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: know if it's something that you've talked about much. I
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: find it really interesting because we interviewed Brian, so Brian's
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: talking more about that aspect of his worldview recently.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: How does that sit with you?
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Going back to what the UK column means to you,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: your relationship, But we could talk a little bit about
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: your relationship with Brian, because that's a long time to
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: be working closely with someone, isn't it. You must have
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of brotherly love or.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: But that's I think, Look, look we have, we have
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: clearly we're still here. Yeah, yeah, I mean that side
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: of things. This is not an act of part of
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: my life at this time. I am open minded about
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: spirituality and beliefs and so on, and I find it
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: all very interesting. Yeah, but it doesn't it's not that's
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: not an act of part of my life at the moment.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: So let's just say agnostic perhaps, so you know, I'm
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: not I'm not atheist, and I'm not in any way
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: anti spirit spirituality, So so I wouldn't find myself challenged
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: by people having strong faith. That's that's but but I
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: think that faith is absolutely something which is personal and
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: and isn't even something that can be transmitted from one
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: person to the next. It's it's is a purely internal thing.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I very much agree with that, and having seen a
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: lot of people move towards what I would describe as
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: a kind of dogmatic Christianity over the last three three years,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: maybe particularly.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Where they Yeah, but that that again, it's the same mentality. Actually,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: somebody over there, who I think is better than me,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: is telling me what I have to think and what
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: I have to believe. And actually there's no spirituality in
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: that whatsoever. It's just ritual. It's just going through emotions
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: and that that's we're just defeating ourselves. Yeah, that's probably
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: the most anti anti spiritual thing approach to life that
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: you can have.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Actually, I agree completely, Yeah, I think, yeah, for sure,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: what you've just said to somebody else, it's not something
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: that you can be prescribed or communicated from one bit.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: It's a very very personal, experiential thing, which is what
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: seems to again going back to the similar point, is
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: that people seem to struggle with that responsibility. They're still
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: looking for something external to define them. So whether that's
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: a religion or a belief, whether it's a belief in
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: EastEnders or Coronation Strait, or a belief in flat Earth,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: or a belief in Epstein files, or a belief in
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: you know, it's unless unless you're actually I mean, for me,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: were talking about the standard of evidence really.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Very little.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Just like in science. I mean, you know, true scientists
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: will admit nothing can be proven. There is no proof
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: in science, there's only the best model, really, isn't there was?
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: What what fits, what fits our observation and predicts what
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: we see is the best model.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: That that that is pretty much the way the world
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: works as far as the human is concerned. We have
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: a model of and do the fact fit the model,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: But we've got to have the gods to that. If
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: we come across a single thing that breaks the model,
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: we've got to say, right, well that's not the truth then,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: and we've got to be finding another model or adjusting
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: the model. And I think if we look at the
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: history of organized religion, and maybe if we look at peoples,
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: at the the the the things that people believe in,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: and whether you know, a lot of people will say
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: science has become scientism. It's it's it's become a religion
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: in and of itself. And I have quite a bit
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: of sympathy for that position because actually a lot of
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: scientists are just as bad, if not worse, in this area,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: you know. And and the the idea from a lot
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: of commentators out there, particularly, you know, amongst the community
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: of debunkers that are going around that use terms like
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: this is the stap list science. No, that's that's what
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: we have at the moment that best fits the model
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: that's been created so far that that is. So if
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: that's what you consider established, then fine, but don't please
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: don't tell me that it's unchallengeable, because because it's absolutely challengeable.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Everything is challengeable. So but that's you know, I guess
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: people are people, and no matter what our branch of life,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: we we have a tendency to fall into these wanting
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: to categorize everything and put put silos around everything and
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: so on.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: I think people just struggle with with uncertainty. They just
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: struggle with uncertainty and then and then whatever way they can,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: you know, who who maybe maybe it's a survival thing.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: You you wake up in the morning, you want to
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: know what you've got to do, and you don't want
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: to you don't want to be bare and with too
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: much conjecture and and theorizing. So perhaps it's perhaps it's
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: just part of how we've evolved whatever. But that, but
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: that doesn't mean we shouldn't be in a position now
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: where we move forward from that. Mm And I think
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: what we call the Truth movement really that that, for me,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: is what it's all about.
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: That's its main.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Reason for for you know, its main power is to
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: is to is to get us beyond that point where
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: we're just accepting what we're told. And unfortunately, it seems
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: like too many people are still stuck in that. What
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: what what are some of you going back through your life?
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: You you've lived in France and you for a couple
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: of years before joining the.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I just I just we just we just
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: took a career break.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: What what what was your career at that point?
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Uh? Well, I made My career was tech, okay, infrastructure,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: and and you know, I've worked and I worked in
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: a host of different sort of industries and whatnot, but
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: ended up working for a hedge fund.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Oh okay.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: And I suppose the day I started, I mean, I
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: had a certain view of the financial system and whatnot,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: but I wasn't really familiar with what hedge funds specifically
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: did when I joined.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: So you joined as a tech guy.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I was running running that part
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: of the Okay organization. But yeah, I mean it was
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: it was a sort of middle sized well. When I started,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: it was I think one and a half billion dollars
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: under management, and then when I left it was about
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: four or five. Okay brilliant and so share that expansion
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: not as much as I should have, but no, I
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: mean it was it was fairly clear that I was
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: not going to be comfortable with working in that business
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: for any longer than.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: I was for ethical moral reasons.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I saw, I definitely saw some things
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: that that at a certain level were absolutely impressive. I mean,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen. I mean, everybody knows
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: what happened in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: But then there were a couple of been a couple
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: of movies made about that. One was called Margin Call.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: No not sad, I'm not saying it.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Well, basically the premise of this was it was sort
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: of a dramatization of what happened in two thousand and
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: seven two thousand and eight, and The premise was that
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: this financial organization suddenly recognized they were doing mortgage backed securities,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: and they suddenly recognized that they were in a financial
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: position where if the markets moved in a particular way,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: a very small way, that they would end up owing
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: more money than the entire value of the business. And
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: so they decided that they were going to be the
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: first company that pulled the plug and effectively bring the
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: whole system down. But I saw a situation very like
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: that while I was working for the edge fund, where
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: they've got themselves in a position where they were facing
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: an existential threat, and I saw the techniques that they
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: used to get themselves out of that situation. And you know,
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: in one sense, it was it was very impressive the
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: financial engineering that they did to deal with that. But
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: but what we've got to realize is, you know that
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: it's called the financial industry, but the idea of an
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: industry is that you're producing something. But the financial industry
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: isn't producing anything. They're just stealing from each other. So
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's a shell game, it's a it's
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: a it's a you know, how much money can I
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: take from that guy over there? And of course we're
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: all many people are finding, you know, if they've got
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: a pension fund or whatever, increasingly back in the in
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: the well when I started, when did I start for
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: that company? Two thousand and two, two thousand and three,
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: two thousand and three, it was, and I'd admit was well,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: a good friend was running a it was an organization
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: sort of providing help for elderly people Belfast in Northern Ireland.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Uh And and they had investments which which were kind
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: of a nest egg. And at that time they said, well,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm working for this hedge fund, now you
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: should invest in that kind of thing. And they said,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: oh no, we've got very clear limitations and what we're
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: allowed to where we're allowed to put our money, and
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: we're right. And in those days pension funds it was
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: the same. You were not they were not allowed to
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: invest in in hedge funds or some of these kind
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: of alternative alternative products. And of course everything's been deregulated
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: and deregulated and now most lots of people's money is
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: invested with these types of companies. But the point is
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: it's just it's just about stealing money from the other guys.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: So so you can invest your money with your pension
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: fund and that money ends up being invested in hedge
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: fund A and hedge fund bas trying to steal that
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: for their right, so so you know it. The other
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: thing that that that sort of I didn't like very
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: much was the attitude from some I wish this is
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: a direct quote from someone I was working with. I
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: wish this war would get started so that we can
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: you know, so you know this, this kind of attitude
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: was not compatible with my view of the world. So yeah,
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: So I was there for a few years and then
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: and then that was that was the end of sort
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: of that type of commercial work.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: And did that coincide with a an awareness of what's
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: going on in the world.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: I've been writing since ninety six or ninety seven.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: So prior to that, you'd say.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: If you say, in ninety five, myself and another guy
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: set up one of the first internet companies in Northern Ireland.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: Failed spectacularly, right and partly timing, partly naivety, and basically
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: probably that was not the time I should have been
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: starting a business. So I think if we if we'd
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: managed to keep it going for another six months or something,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: we just ran We ran out of money. If we'd
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: managed to keep it going for another six months or so,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: probably we would have we would have survived a little
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: bit longer. But you know that that didn't quite work.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: But anyway, that sort of got me into the Internet
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: at fairly early, fairly early stage, and I was already
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: started to right about stuff.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, what was your first subject then that you were?
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I can't remember, but no, I mean
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: in terms of wakening up. Northern Ireland woke me up right,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: you know when I was, When I was I think
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: I've told this story. When I was eleven, my dad
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: started a business in Belfast and it had been going
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: for less than a year and the industrial estate he
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: was on was blown up. Uh. And then we found
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: out from someone we knew in the police that they
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: they had watched the bomb being put in the car,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: that watched it being driven down the road, and they'd
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: been totally alone. And so then you got to ask,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: you got to ask why what? Because what? Why would
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: why would the r u C as it was in
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: those days, be not worrying too much about about this
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: kind of thing? And of course some protection racket was
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: going on all the all the paramlelitary groups were running
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: the protection racket, and I would assume, I don't know,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: but I would assume there was Brian Envelope's been passed,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: which meant that there was no intervention intervention happening from
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: the police. So that that that started my journey asking
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: questions about how the world actually works. My concern in
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: the meantime is is just how badly polluted the information
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: space it becomes. What what we do now can be
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: a bit addictive. It's just something just choosing the belief
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: at this stage of my life. You know, he noticed
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: us sitting there and his face went ashen, So you
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: know that that's that's just another example of a small victory.